War of 1812 - Freshwater Edition
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- Today we take a look at the War of 1812 as it progressed on the Great Lakes.
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Pinned post for Q&A :)
A question partly inspired by your "sorry...wrong Sheridan." joke a while back, which I enjoyed: In the Babylon 5 spin-off, "Crusade"captain Matthew Gideon is described as having been involved in more battles during peacetime than most captains face in a major war. Were there any British ship commanders like this in the age of sail, men who had comparatively peaceful assignments, but seemed to frequently find themselves in the middle of naval incidents?
Do you think the Soviets would have been better off attempting to modernise the Gangut Class before building the Soviet Union class to gain/regain experience with the construction of larger ships, as before they ran into several issues building the Kirov Class, and still required foreign assistance. Also would you ever do a video about the Soviet submarine classes of WW2
Do you think there is a future for American style "super carriers" given the emerging environment of stealth and hypersonic missiles with no current counters. It doesn't seem to make sense to build a few of such expensive ships when they can be sunk by much cheaper units, assuming they are located of course. The only advantage I see is the longer range of an air launched missile, but this could surely be countered by the fact surface launched missile can be much larger. So what advantages do you see to a carrier over a few missile destroyers with helicopters for over the horizon radar?
You often mention the high possibility of an Anglo-American war without the naval treaties. What do you think would be the outcome of this war, assuming it was mainly a naval war to stick to the scope of the channel and because I assume it would be anyway. On a related note when exactly did the US navy overtake the Royal Navy, I know at the end of WW2 it was far larger but at the start of the war the Royal Navy seems to have been superior from what I can tell.
In a scenario where one time machine exists. And someone has the ability to transport large amounts of machinery and personell with it.
If somebody had a fully crewed and supplied yamato, ignoring resupply and tiring of crew over time, how far back into history would you have to go for that one ship be enough to end everyone elses navy? Would it be a case of having to go back to the age of sail and just ramming everybody would do just fine let alone big guns and the floatplane, or is this not the case? And is there a more recent time prior to yamato actually existing where with the right crew and command staff that you could take the seas as your own with the right strategy?
war is no excuse for not returning your library books :D
True. Who knows what kind of late fee penalties they would have had to pay.
When the British burned D.C. an officer ordered troops not to burn the patent office.
@@thepezfeo Of course, we are not animals
Hell hath no fury like a librarian scorned!!
Fight amongst yourselves as much as you like, but for the love of God, don't piss off a librarian.
When Drach describe these tiny and haphazard fleets, I half expect him to add: "They also had a rowboat with a punt gun, manned by a very ornery man called Gary."
I'm sure there was one, even if not documented.
@@LWolf12 Gary wished to remain anonymous.
Yeah and now you've revealed him. Doomed him to being known.
Oh yeah! Old One Gauge Gary! Often confused with old Petey One Pounder. Or maybe they're the same guy. Historians remain divided.
“This bolstered the American fleet by 80%, the previous rowboat only having 1/5 of a cannon”
This is great Drach, these less touched on conflicts and campaigns are where your channel really stands out.
Royal Navy: we win the lakes.
US Navy: we win the lakes.
Lake's weather: hold my beer.
In conclusion the weather god kicked everyone's ass.
Lake Ontario can get very violent, very quickly. I have seen it.
True true
I live and sail on Georgian Bay. I agree.
It has already started kicking off in MI this year.
Utterly amazing to think that a naval commander could have his men design and virtually whittle up a brand new warship in the field as it were. Wow.
tbf, even today its just wood, water, and a lot of free time on the great lakes
19:59 Are you sure Isaac Chauncey wasn't Canadian, because returning of the library books sounds something very Canadian!
"Here's the books we borrowed, a bit late I'm afraid! Sorry!"
Well when we aren't fighting each other, Americans tend to be quite polite.
Americans used to have an extremely strong respect for literature and information, hence the bizarre action taken here.
I once returned I library book my Dad had borrowed off me one day...23 years later to the North Vancouver Library. Yes, very Canadian.
Without the late fees its a hollow gesture...
Hiznogood Chauncey was most likely a Puritan. 😄
"Who has the biggest guns, the British or the Americans?"
"The Lake has the biggest guns."
*DO NOT* under any circumstances for any reason underestimate the weather of the lakes I do not live right on the lakes but I live about 3 hours away from Toronto the weather is chaotic to say the least. And from what I understand it's calmed down here compared to on the lakes
@@USS_ESSEX_CV-9 You are correct Huron, Michigan, and Superior are just deadly. Even to larger boats.
@@shanepatrick4534 I read an article once explaining why the Great Lakes are so deadly in a storm. Apparently, with storms in the ocean, the waves usually come from only one direction and they have a rhythm. So, as long as a ship can keep it's bow pointed into the wave, it can ride them out one after the other.
In the Great Lakes, it's entirely different. When the wind pushes up the waves, they eventually hit the shore, bounce off and set up a wave traveling back in the opposite direction. Since there's shore all around you end up with waves traveling in all directions. Further, the waves can sync up, causing them to be much bigger than one would otherwise expect them to be. So, a ship can get hit with huge waves coming from any direction with no time to get the bow turned into the waves and no time to recover the ship in between the waves hitting. The guy who wrote the article suggested that's a very, very bad thing to happen to a ship.
In a related note, I once saw an interview with Ted Turner, who was quite big in blue water yacht racing in his day. He had entered into a yacht race from Detroit to Chicago, sailing up Lake Huron, through the Strait of Mackinaw and down Lake Michigan. They got a storm warning while they were sailing up Lake Huron, but he said he blew it off because he felt that because he was a highly experience blue water sailor he didn't think there was anything any lake could throw at him that he couldn't easily handle. He went on to say that blowing off the storm warning was the worst mistake he ever made in his life, that the next four or five hours were spent in sheer terror and that he almost capsized his yacht multiple times before the storm finally passed. He ended by saying that it was the only time he'd actually feared for his life while sailing.
@@silentotto5099 That is super cool. Thank you for the information; he's right they act like a giant bathtub or pool.
@@shanepatrick4534 That was one of the comparisons the author of the article I mentioned actually used... "Sloshing around like a bathtub".
Because even a steely-eyed invasion force respects the authority of the library system.
@@jonmce1 But we only borrowed it.
@@jonmce1 It's quite likely we forgot we had it. Except for the Battle of New Orleans we don't remember the Unpleasantness of 1812 real good (for some pretty obvious reasons).
If only Brock or Prevost had had the smarts to form and deploy an elite unit of crack librarians, the you-alls today would be swearing allegiance to Tim Horton and John Molson. Alas, it was not to be. But for some strange reason the "Mackinac" pattern for clothing (originally the pattern of the Mackinac blanket, issued to the Michigan Fencibles Regiment of the Crown forces during the 1812-15 war, their regimental tunics being red with black facings) is always going in and out of style. Stranger still is that for some idiotic reason it's marketed in Canada as the "Buffalo" pattern. Oh, and the Mississippi Volunteers Regiment was a Canadian militia unit raised on Mackinac in the spring of 1814 to capture Ft. Shelby (now Prairie du Chien WI). They were successful in doing so, repelling a counter-attack led by Gen. Zackary Taylor, who would go on to become the 12th President. This victory gave the Crown control of the upper Mississippi, so had Packenham defeated Jackson...
One more fun fact. The Upper Canadian Regiment was a unit of the US army. Some of its members were tried and convicted for treason at what is now Ancaster, Ontario, between Niagara Falls and Toronto. If I recall correctly, one was sentenced to be hanged, drawn and quartered, marking the last time such a sentence was carried out in Canada.
Grew up on the shores of Lake Erie. Totally a part of my life. Completely.
I tremble to consider being captured by a unit of highly organized librarians and forced to re-shelve books at pencil point...
When a good storm blows up on the Great Lakes you BETTER head for a safe harbor. In some ways the waves are worse than on the open sea. The massive number of wrecks is evidence of that. (Yes, I live along Lake Erie.) sm
*comment about the Edmund Fitzgerald*
the big lake the gitchegoone? kitchagoone?
The line about "They are built different for the comparable smoother lakes" followed by "4 capsized in a squall" made me laugh out loud.
Storms on the great lakes are no joke.
More ships sank without a trace on the Great Lakes than in the Bermuda Triangle.
During winter storms, the weather service will warn that waves on Lake Erie will range from 25 to 35 feet. The buoys often don't record the big ones because most buoys are near the harbors, rather than the deep water offshore.
I like the mention of the return of library books that’s very funny. Like here we took these but we are done reading them so you can have them back. We all forgot our library cards that’s why we have to take them by force.
Small side note mackinac is pronounced mackinaw, and is reflected by the Americans respelling it such for mackinaw city, however the island and bridge still spell it with a “c”. One of those weird French-native hybrid words where the French kept their tradition of not pronouncing words the way they are spelled I’m afraid.
Alos, the town Amherstburg sounds more like 'Ammersburg' than 'am-herst-burg' - though I'm not sure if it's only become so over time or if it was pronounced that way originally.
Right....the French spells somethings but pronounced it completely something else. Like Fuck the French is pronounced good French.
My greatest moment in my academic career was when I corrected my 11th grade history teachers’ pronunciation of “Michilimackinac” in front of the whole class then won the ensuing argument
And the French will tell you that you have no idea how to pronounce letters and words that they have been pronouncing that way since long before a U.S.A. was ever conceived. American pronunciation is just lazy and reflective of their own silly idea of American Exceptionalism. Y'all dig?
Indeed. The fort on the lower peninsula is pronounced with the last syllable as "ack". I think you have to live in Michigan to get this right.... haha. Most people don't understand how long the French held territory in Michigan.
Growing up in Cleveland, we probably learned more about the various battles on the Lakes, especially Lake Erie. It always seemed odd ot me that we were going to somehow conquer Canada, especially with our rather pitiful forces. The fact we even came as close as we did was quite amazing.
I'm just glad we got to keep Put-in-Bay. Where else are we going to drink our summers away!
We're lucky it didn't backfire horrendously. The state of Michigan and more could have been a Canadian Province today if things had gone differently on the lakes. This is one of the most ignored theaters of the war by historians yet it's one of the most vital in regards to the shape of our nation today.
@chris younts probably the best Readers' Digest summation of the period.
@@SeekerLancer probably a "gentleman's agreement" among NA historians so as not to stir it all up again.
It was a strange war. Conquering Canada was three times a failure by the US, if not more. However, the British also failed with three massive invasions of the US. The British lost three straight frigate actions in a row which was unheard of. They also Lost two lake flotillas wholesale, along with their respective bodies of water, and suffered the worst military defeat at New Orleans in their history up to that point. But on the flipside the British repelled three major invasions of Canada with a small forces, took our capital and burned it, and in a few little known feats, that are amazing and should be celebrated far more, they sailed they're warships straight up the Potomac River, occupied Alexandria, took a massive amount of materials and then got back down the river again under fire. And then they did the same in Philadelphia harbor and completely massacred the privateer fleet that had been working out of there. It was a war that ended status quo antebellum, but in my opinion set the stage for a great period Of American expansion where we agreed on dual occupation of the Oregon country(1818), the demilitarizetion of the great lake(1818), and a formalized border with Canada. I also believe the war convinced the Spanish we would fight for Florida and that it wasn't worth it, gaining us Florida(1819), and I believe, giving teeth to the Monroe doctrine that would follow 8 years later(1823). A very strange, very consequential, very obscure War.
Drach: Provides a concise summary of the topic with well thought out jokes and bits of humour.
Me: *Slight chuckle*
Also Drach: says "Yo" in a completely serious tone several times.
Me: *Dies of laughter*
One thing I really love about this video: it demonstrates something I say quite often for those who don't live near the Great Lakes. It's that they're not lakes as much as they are freshwater inland seas and will *very* quickly kill you if you're careless.
41:50 The Native fieldcraft was pretty good, but it didn't help that there was only one airport for the Americans to use for landing troops.
AHAHAHAHAHA
They were transporting troops from the airfield at Valley Forge ;)
You must construct additional sloops!
StarCraft was my opiate during the late 1990's and early 2000's!
@@battlements7649 Starcraft - the original - was the first PC game i've seen, and i was fascinated by the very idea of a real-time strategy you control with a mouse.
Michigan native here. Excellent video Drachinifel! The war on the Great Lakes is usually forgotten unfortunately.
Drach, I am just beginning to listen to this and I am stoked! I spent a season working on the replica Brig Niagara, and sailed her from Erie, PA to Duluth, MN and finally to Chicago. She's an interesting ship to sail- way more sail area than anything her size needs and the maneuverability of a barge. She's a musclecar among tallships.
Oh, and she has a tiller rather than a wheel. I think she's the largest operating tallship with a tiller.
That’s not a replica. It’s a literal ship of Theseus. It is a ship that has had the vast majority of it’s original parts replaced. But due to the fact that it wasn’t a reconstruction, and some original parts remain in non-critical structural areas, it cannot truly be called a replica. It’s not exactly original, yet it cannot be called a replica either. Thus, it is the perfect example of the ship of Theseus thought experiment/identity paradox.
I worked at the Michigan Maritime Museum in South Haven, on Lake Michigan, one summer as a hand on the '"Friend's Goodwill"', a replica of an old square rigged sloop merchantman from the War of 1812. It was fitted out with 9 pounder on a swivel during the war but sadly our cannon merely a replica.
The crew sailed her up Lake Michigan, though the straits of Mackinac and down Lake Huron to Lake Erie for a reenactment of the Battle of Lake Erie on it's 200th anniversary in 2013.
Getting to sail every day on that ship was an absolutely amazing way to spend a summer between spring and fall semester!
Librarian in York: “please! Don’t shoot me! I surrender!”
Us marine: “what? Oh no I’m just returning this war and peace”
Us marine “and btw I’m a time traveller”
Umm.. Tolstoy published War and Peace in 1869, that would have been one hell of a lost Marine.
That US marine must have the Super Duper Mega Premium Early Edition of War and Peace....
US Marines read? 😁 My uncle would be very disappointed if he ever read this comment.
York Librarian: "In that case you owe $10 in late fees."
@@lucidnonsense942 And, ironically in this case, the main "War" in the tittle is the French invasion of Russia in 1812. Or, as the Russians call it, the Patriotic War of 1812. Though it does talk about the entire Napoleonic era as it relates to Russia to a degree.
The USS Hamilton and USS Scourge sank in 1813 off the city of Hamilton on Lake Ontario. In the mid 80's I had the honour of being part of an honour guard that opened small cemetery where 53 American sailors are buried.
I know the Hamilton has been found what about the Scourge?
Oh baby do I need this, just finished moving house since last sunday, worked all week as well. Just got home and have 1st night to myself and this pops up being 5mins old.
THANK YOU!
Fuck yeah, man- I am feeling good *for* you! What a grand feeling lol
I hate moving more than anything.
I've lived and sailed on the Great Lakes for most of my life, this is hands down the best review i've seen to date. Thanks again Drach!
I love the idea of someone on a sinking ship, angerly shouting "YOOOOOOOO"
As a Sea Cadet near Sandusky, Ohio, we provided an honor guard for all of the Battle of Lake Erie bicentennial celebrations
I find it funny when non=locals try and say "Mackinac". It is actually pronounced "MAK-in-aw"
Michilimackinac, count on the British to butcher it beyond recognition eating up as many consonnes as possible.
Why is there a c
@@jrico6791 the French translated it from a native word, so it uses the French spelling, Mackinac. Mackinaw is the English spelling but the only place it stuck was for Mackinaw City, everything else is Mackinac, (the island, Straits, bridge)
@@jrico6791 Why is Worcester pronounced Wooster? Probably some Anglo Saxon something or other.
@@ejd53 lol how did you know I live near Worcester. I think with the New England towns you had British people saying them in their peculiar ways for hundreds of years and then you had Americans who continued the tradition of smooshing syllables together for hundreds of years. It's different than Mackinac because it's hard to know the French derivation when it looks Indian.
I read a book this year called The War of 1812: A Forgotten Conflict by Donald R Hickey that covered the whole war very well. It was a very good book and went into good detail on not just the war but also the politics and causes/effects of the war.
Pierre Berton wrote a very good two volume account of the war. His conclusion was that the losers of that war were the natives.
Thanks for the info Jatzi
I just bought the kindle version from Amazon ,can't wait to start reading it
@@barelyasurvivor1257 Awesome! Gave me a new perspective on the period. We tend to kinda idealize it but the reality is that the politics of the time were not great. Not by a long shot. Also we sucked at warfare lol
I have read a number of books on the War of 1812 and the one that I think most profoundly influenced my views was Alan Taylor's "The Civil War of 1812: American Citizens, British Subjects, Irish Rebels, & Indian Allies".
Don't let the title fool you this is a serious historical look at the War of 1812 which I actually think does a better job of really conveying what was actually going on in this war then almost every other book I have read on the topic.
Don't get me wrong I love me some Pierre Berton but the impression you get after reading him is that the war of 1812 was a lot like the campaigns of Napoleon except on a smaller scale and in North America but that really misses out on the fact that actually both sides where fighting this war in an area that was profoundly under developed for a military campaign.
The British fed their army by paying Americans to drive huge herds of cattle across the border because they could not really move enough supplies from the ports.
Both sides engaged in nasty village and town burning campaigns and the British followed their Indian Allies deep into the American Western frontier burning every settlement they could find and killing any settlers they could lay their hands on (I will note that the Americans had been up to much the same when they invaded native territory).
The Americans where horribly hampered by the fact that on their side the war was profoundly political with one of the political parties (the one Madison was not the leader of) actively sabotaging the war effort because it was politically bad for Madison whenever his armies where defeated.
Basically a great book in terms of understanding what was going on during the war.
All that said maybe read this one after you read the Pierre Berton as it really does not focus on the general course of the war and practically ignores many of the battles.
Right on! Outstanding Content Creator, who I am grateful for having found a few years ago. Thank you mate!
It was a strange war. US conquering Canada was three times a failure if not more. However, the British also failed with three massive invasions. The British lost three straight frigate actions in a row which was unheard of. The British lost 2 lake flotillas wholesale, along with their respective bodies of water, and the worst military defeat at New Orleans in their history up to that point. But on the flipside the British repelled Three major invasions of Canada with very little forces (who were often second-string as he said), took our capital and burned it (though by then it was with a fair amount of Britain's best troops), and a few little known feats that are amazing and should be celebrated far more, they sailed they're warships straight up the Potomac River, occupied Alexandria, took a ton of materials and then got back down again under fire. And then they did the same in Philadelphia harbor and completely massacred the privateer fleet that had been working out of there. It was a war that ended status quo antebellum, but in my opinion set the stage for a great period Of American expansion where we agreed on dual occupation of the Oregon country, demilitarized the great lakes and formalized that border, convinced the Spanish we would fight for Florida and that it wasn't worth it, gaining us Florida, and I believe, giving teeth to the Monroe doctrine that would follow 8 years later. Very strange, very consequential, very obscure War.
The burning of Washington was retaliation for the burning of York, which was the Capital at the time. Why do you think Ottawa is Canada's Capital?
@@johnshepherd8687
That's what they said at the time.but I wonder given the opportunity even without York if they could have resisted it, if they were already going to try to take Baltimore you know
4 years late, but thumbs up to your views. I,d say the war of 1812 was a draw. The clear US victories were without any real gain ; New Orleans happened 2 weeks AFTER the peace treaty was signed in France . Naval balance was ever a fluid win , and no land was lost or gained...odd indeed .
Something not mentioned, the war was very unpopular with the US border states, with some states threatening to seceed the union if it was not stopped.
By US standards it was worse to that public than the latter Viet Nam conflict.
Odd. American war hawks broke even in my view. Post civil war , troops of both nations worked together in peace to craft the worlds longest undefended border. Something the UNION troops enjoyed by their own accounts. ;)
@@robertsolomielke5134 I agree I draw between Britain and the US. The New Orleans comment I hear often but that really doesn't matter when a large army is attacking those your city. To prevent the enemy from taking your city is always a victory. What made the British army have done to New Orleans if they had to take it by siege. What would Andrew Jackson have done to New Orleans had the British been ready to take it. That that didn't happen is a victory. And the defeat inflicted on the British full of Wellington's veterans commanded by his brother-in-law is a victory of Honor in any age. Many of those units would be fighting at Waterloo a few months later.
Love hearing about the Battle of Plattsburgh. Always nice to see it get attention.
Made the mistake of checking to see what Drach was offering today. Now I'll be late for work.....Great work, Drachinifel!
As a Brit that lived in Michigan for 5years, thanks for this one Drach
Which part? I grew up in Royal Oak and live in Rochester.
Could you imagne a time when looting troops took library books. I suppose theres not much else to do in spare time then.
Plus books that have useful information on various things like carpentry and farming and the like. 😺
200 years ago, books were a luxury. It would be comparable to robbing an apple store, nowadays.
@@ManScoutsofAmerica more like Lambo shop
The best overview of the 1812-15 conflict on the great lakes from a Naval prespective I have ever heard and I live in the threater for crap saks. Oh well that just goes to show how poorly they rate history in this area some days
www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/9104 "The Naval war of 1812" by Theodore Roosevelt. You may have heard of him...
The book is outstanding, and free over at Project Gutenberg. You may be surprised to learn that the US more than held its own at sea during the war.
As for land battles, we performed very well when it really mattered. Baltimore, Plattsburgh, and New Orleans were critical American victories, curiously all of which were fought while the peace negotiations were underway in Ghent. Or not too surprising, since the plan in Britain was that they would sign "Ghent Lite", but would refuse to ratify the new treaty once Baltimore and New Orleans fell. Britain would then use these victories as leverage to demand buffer zones, free passage on the Mississippi, and fishing rights. Things didn't work out that way.
Instead the treaty returned each side to more or less the pre-war status quo. America got its land back, and returned what it took from *British* Canada. And were no longer pestered by British seizures of ships and men. Britain got, umm, something. I'm not sure what. An education I suppose. And Canadians got an extra 115 years or so to work on their own independence. :)
However, with the fall of Napoleon, Britain no longer needed American sailors, nor did they have any remaining objections to the US trading with France (owing in large part to Britain setting up the new government in France with their own people).
After the fall of Napoleon, opinions were mixed in Britain with the general population wanting to get serious with the US and finish things properly this time, while businessmen were eager to get back to trading with the US.
And while it is one thing to impress American sailors to fight against France for Britain, it was a different matter entirely getting them to fight against fellow Americans. Impressed Americans were generally allowed to remain below decks during battles with American ships. Something about disgruntled employees and easy access to firearms I suppose.
So in the end, the US got what it went to war over anyway. Call it a win or not, your choice. But I'll take that any day.
As an aside, there were foreigners fighting for the British at the battle of Trafalgar making up about 10% of the sailors that fought in the battle. This includes 361 American born sailors.
But were they there voluntarily? History says otherwise.
I still say that the British should be forced to take back Detroit. They won after all.
Would not change much,
Just look at London.....
@@knutdergroe9757 Yeah but at least it won't be our problem anymore.
The US stuffed it up, the US can keep the problem.
Neither side truly won, and even if the British did, they certainly wouldn’t want Detroit. Nobody wants Detroit. Even the people living in Detroit don’t want Detroit.
@@megalodon7916 Haha, I work in Detroit and can confirm that it's a total dump lol
I was just reading about Zebulon Pike. Then this came up in my recommendations. I know I watch Drachinfel, but this is just Erie.
I see what you did there
In school, we were taught about a small skirmish between a cornered British pay packet and an American opponent. Supposedly, a 'casket of gold was thrown overboard', into Irondequoit Bay. There is no history of the gold ever being recovered from the muck as far as I can discover. I am not entirely sure about the veracity of this event but it was in school and Irondequoit Bay is walking distance.
I’ve heard a similar tale concerning a certain HMS Hussar but near the Hellgate bridge in New York City
Great video thanks! My history minded friend in Hamilton told me they found the two ships sunk kn the 8th on the American side of lake ontario. At one time I saw the video of them under water. You can't legally dive on them, although we've been considering trying deeper dives for this reason (for now retrieving golf balls will suffice) anyway apparently these two ships are amongst,or are, the best preserved shipwrecks in the world
The book "The Frontiersmen" chronicles the lives of both Tecumseh and Simon Kenton. Both cross paths several times and Kenton prevents Tecumseh's mutation after the Battle of the Thames. Tecumseh predicted the New Madrid earthquakes in 1811 -12 and used that secure the alliance of several tribes. The book is probably in the top five books that every American should read.
You mentioned several times that having to carry supplies enabled the ships to be smaller than their ocean-going counterparts. One of the main supplies they did not have to worry about was drinking water: it was all around them. Thus no need for large-capacity on-board water storage. That bulk, weight, and space could be used for other needs: more guns IMO.
Ew... do you know what fish do in that lake water? ;)
Freshwater electric boogaloo???
Love the video Drach...fantastic work as always. I know this is a Naval channel, but the battle of Lundys Lane was one of the toughest and bloodiest of the war. Lots of point blank range firing and bayonet work.
And yes Jefferson absolutely choked the American military. He had an obsession with arming large row boats with cannons, manned by volunteers.
He had them built and manned at the expense of the conventional fleet.
Even though these small craft proved on the whole almost as expensive to maintain and build as the large frigates.
I have always thought it strange that Jefferson thought capturing Canada would be easy or doable. Canada was home to many former colonists who sided with the King. Surely Jefferson knew this.
@@scottgoodman8993 He was prone to flights of fancy
@@scottgoodman8993 He was an American politician...
Jefferson was against naval expansion but at least wanted to preserve the navy we already had and tried to build drydocks but congress wouldn't allow him and the US would get its first drydocks until the 1830's. As anti-military as Jefferson was, the Democratic-Republican party at large was even more-so.
@@scottgoodman8993 Jefferson was idealistic and thought surely by now Canada has seen that American-style democracy was the future and that North America should unite and be free of European drama. He was wrong.
Although Canadians don’t like to admit it, the war of 1812 was a defining event for the country. Many of the political/social aspects are recognizable today.
A crazy side-note; I am born and raised in glorious Buffalo, New York!! And, I ironically just moved to Canada (Vancouver) after becoming married!!!! I will be exposing her to this later tomorrow night, without doubt.
Thanks again man
Fun fact: Penetanguishene, Ontario has a slow but fully functional replica of a Great Lakes warship building operation. Everything from hand-hewn timbers to curing to assembling an actual sailing ship of the early 19th Century.
Oh god I can't wait for when you talk about HMS St Lawrence 😂
Lol watching this just after I just bought my lvl 45 pack in Madden
These are tough names to pronounce, but in Canada we know Tecumseh as Teh kum see and Prevost as Pre vo (long vowel). Mackinac is Mack in naww . On Georgian Bay the Nancy was destroyed by its own crew when it proved impossible to hide it in the Nottawasaga river, but the crew captured the American ships. The wreck of the Nancy burned to the waterline then floated to the mouth of the river and sank. It filled with silt and eventually formed a permanent island - Nancy Island.
"The War of 1812 was a little bit of a weird one"??? That was a little bit of an understatement! 😆
I am Canadian and I love the history of the area of the Great Lakes !!!! All those conflicts between newly born USA and British colonial Canada are just amazing !!!! >> When Canadians and Americans finally stopped killing each other ????
Your presentation was much better than any of the books I have read on this theater of war. Excellent (and as you said) fascinating. Thanks!
As a French Canadian that love Canadian history that video on naval battle for the 1812-1814 war is superbly well done.
Having a for father that was with Prévost troop in front Plattsburg in September 1814 that lake battle do have a lots of interest for me and to be frank T. Macdonough was a super strategist. To bad you did not expand on the type of small ship the galley that was unique to all the small skirmish on the St. Laurens and where capital at the battle of Lake Champlain
Last time I was this early HMS Hood was a Trireme
4L3KS At that time and age I would guess it's crew wore blue paint and the vessel where a hollowed out tree canoe and in stead of Hood it was simple named Wood? 😋
His Tribal Chieftan's Canoe Wood doesn't have the same ring to it does it?
Thats funny
Stan Rogers taught me everything I need to know about Great Lakes weather.
I have a buddy who lost his brother on a fishing boat on Lake Erie. IIRC he was out of Port Dover (Tiny Fish for Japan was set there I think) and it was a white squall.
The great Lakes are strewn with an insane number of ships. My father helped locate and document a few of them.
Good memories. Thank you. :)
Good stuff. I grew up in northeastern NY state and my mother was from Buffalo. I've been to Sackett's Harbor a few times and there is a memorial column for Chrysler's Farm on a hill above the St Lawrence River as well. (The actual battlefield location is underwater due to the flooding caused by the St Lawrence Seaway Project dams.)
I live about 50 miles from the final battle of this war...the Battle of Plattsburgh, in Plattsburgh, NY. I even drive past one of the American forts all the time (although it just looks like a grassy hill now). Speaking of which...the anniversary of that battle is in just 2 days from this post, on September 11th (which would make this the 205th anniversary of the battle).
A touchy subject even now, whilst on a visit to Toronto, and waiting for a train, l read to my long suffering wife, a possibly bias account of the 1812 war, from a leaflet. A couple in front of us turned, and passionately put us right, another chap behind joined in. Thankfully our English accents allowed us to make smoke and withdraw. Sigh, a caution to travellers.
Good video and a fascinating discussion of the war on the lakes. But even more than 200 years later it is painful to listen about a war between Canada and the USA. Our friends to the north are the best neighbors in the world. May there always be peace between us - aside from the occasional spirited hockey game!
You're joking right? As soon as we run out of fresh water, the US is rolling right over Canada.
I was born in Port Clinton but moved away as a child. I read about Put-in Bay as an adult but always wanted to see a video done. Thank you for doing this.
neat to hear about local history I was on the replica Niagara about a month ago when it visited
As a Michigander, it makes me happy to see this video
I must admit I learned a lot about the naval battles in the great lakes that they did not teach in high school. As always a job well done. Pip pip and cheereo old man.
Excellent. It emphasizes something that neither side cares to admit in their official Histories. The war of 1812 in North America was a Comedy of Errors.
If it there had not been so much loss of life and property, it would have actually been almost hilarious. The returning of the library books is an indicator that while, it was a battle for dominance, neither side really disliked the other.
To this day people on both sides claim it as a victory.
Not really a naval topic but Tecumseh was known as a great warrior among the Shawnee Indians. William Tecumseh Sherman of "Sherman's march to the sea" fame, recived his middle name in honor of the Native American by his father.
Tecumseh was given more honour by Americans than Canadians
Well he was a very decent fellow, even to his American captives
Not-so-fun fact. When the powder magazine exploded at York, the most senior casualty of the crushing debris was General Pike of Pike's Peak fame.
29:40: "Twilight Zone" time. ! It is 1913 on the Great Lakes and the War of 1812 continues...
Aemiral perry putting his new 4 stack destroyers to the test.
@@kdrapertrucker while both sides hurry in the construction of their river dreadnoughts.
Fantastic job! Thank you for all your hard work. Always very enjoyable watching. Love the detail and dry humor.
p l e a s e continue the saga on this conflict, it seems to be a very misunderstood war and one that had a very unique force displacement.
An inconclusive lesson in whether naval strategy is build strategy. Build strategy mattered for most of the war, but two of the most important battles on the lakes were decided by Tactics (Battle of Lake Erie) or one of the commanders taking a ride on the short bus (Battle of Plattsburg).
[Looking at the America army outside.] "I'm not going to bring up the overdue book fines. You can tell them if you like."
Always nice to return the "Borrowed" library books.
No one: Let's conquer Canada!
US Govt: 1st let's strip the military of it's funding.
US Govt: _Now_ let's conquer (er, "liberate") Canada!
😂🤣
Bold strategy Cotton let's see if it pays off
Jefferson, for all of his bright ideas, was way too much of an idealist and way too far up the ass of his own worldview. He thought that the growing success of the USA was going to convince the world that American-style democracy was was the way of the future and while I guess he wasn't necessarily wrong he was maybe a century too early.
He didn't think the invasion of Canada would be a real invasion, he thought they'd be thrilled to join. Of course, anyone with any awareness knew that Canada was populated by the fiercest British loyalists in North America who REALLY didn't care much for the United States. Jefferson didn't think a strong military was wise because he was always afraid it would drag the US into the never-ending conflicts of Europe but he also didn't have a great grasp on why a strong military was necessary, thinking the ocean was protection enough from potential enemies.
To be fair to Jefferson though his party was a lot more adamant about disarming than even he was. They wouldn't even let Jefferson build a drydock to preserve the ships they already had (even though it would be even MORE costly not to preserve the ships). The Democratic-Republicans were obsessed with paying down the national debt to the detriment of everything else. The debt wasn't even that bad relatively but they were also adamantly against higher taxes both out of principle and for fear of public uprising. The Democratic-Republicans would positively implode if they saw where the country was today though looking at it from their point of view they didn't want America to follow Britain's example and fall victim to corruption and scandals (see the South Sea Company) that came with the British empire's debt woes. Which you know... it eventually did anyway.
I have been to Lake Erie and can confirm you can easily see Canada even on a foggy day from a slightly elevated position
The outcome of the War of 1812 was ending any thought of the Americans rejoining the British Empire. It also created a distinct Canadian nationalism.
Yah exactly, to the Americans it's seen as us standing up to Great Britain and forcing them to respect us as a Nation. While to Canada it is about fending off an American Invasion and maintaining their independence from the U.S.A.
@@bumblingbureaucrat6110 We can argue about who won, but all agree that the Native Americans were the big losers.
As a Canadian, this is one of my favourite topics of history.
Tecumseh is pronounced "Ti-KUM-see" and yes, that is where General Sherman's middle name came from. Great summary of the naval miniwar :D.
Thank you for that TECUMSEH proper pronunciation !!!!
Ti-KUM-say
Never disappoints... always thrills. Thanks uncle Drach!
I was on a ferry going to Put In Bay from Port Clinton a couple of years ago when a sudden storm blew up. Lake Erie went from flat calm to 30 ft. waves that broke OVER the top of the ferry. The storm lasted about 15 minutes, and as suddenly as it blew up, it was gone. Absolutely terrifying.
... how do your laugh in British? "Hah hah jolly hah and a crumpet! For the King! Hah!" ... does that qualify?
no but it shows that at least one american can spell
i long for more videos like voyage of the dammend . make no mistake , i totally enjoy all your videos , but that kind of story mixed with your storytrlling manner is Perfect .
The Graphics, and Narration is FLAWLESS !! And the suttle ( occasional ) humor is a Great Touch !!! DO NOT CHANGE A THING !!! GREAT PRODUCTION !!!👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
GO CANADA GO! Most people living outside of Canada or the USA fail to see just how hazardous sailing on the Great Lakes actually is. These lakes are pretty much inland seas and the weather on them can become dangerous, Michigan and Superior are probably the worst ones
lake erie is shallow and can be really be a problem .thus i know lol
@@jakelang4387 There's over 2000 ships and boats on its bottom to attest to that!
@@SeekerLancer You don't have to get on the water to notice, there's 25cm of frozen Great Lake outside that fell on my house yesterday.
Thus Michigan's huge number of lighthouses.
On any of the lakes in a worst case scenario you can have approximately 15-20 minutes to get into port and if you do not then there is a good chance you're going down. Do not underestimate the lakes at all for any reason
This is my on my top 5 TH-cam.
Good work, and thank you.
You don't have nearly enough subscribers to do justice to the clear way you explain these things.
And nobody who is subscribed to you will ever forget a field of battle without a Johnson.
Although it may be suffering a bit of a ship of Theseus, condition the USS Niagara is alive and kicking to this very day.
It's a very extreme version of ship of Theseus since little of it was used in its reconstruction. I believe Erie's maritime museum itself considers it a replica. It's still really cool.
Honestly Lake Ontario was won for the British once St Lawrence was launched....the Americans had no answer for the firepower she represented. I even heard reports that there were American sailors that outright refused to go to sail against her. A single broadside of the St. Lawrence, I believe, almost outgunned the American Squadren.
the year by year escalation in firepower and new designs for vessels reminds me of the escalation in tank warfare on the eastern front ww2
The weather on the Great Lakes is Oceanic. Large vessels have been known to disappear. See the Edmund Fitzgerald. The short period of the waves can lift large vessels out of the water in a storm damaging their keels. After the St Laurence Seaway opened and ocean going vessels started plying the Great Lakes on a regular basis they started developing hull cracks from the pounding.
There's a reason why there's thousands of vessels on the bottom of lake Erie alone.
A bit like the Mediterranean
Fair assessment
You're not pronouncing "Oswego" properly, it's 'Ohs-wee-go'. The "E" is hard.
Native of the area.
I never pronounced Oswego with an oh sound. I always say "ah-swee-go" that just maybe my accent idk.
@@georgea.567 Yeah, the first syllable is pronounced like "awe". I might not have made that clear.
Hey now, you can't expect anyone who doesn't get the Buffalo TV stations to pronounce northern New York correctly.
@@johnladuke6475 Or Syracuse or Watertown stations, since Buffalo signals don't reach extreme northern NY. Source: used to live all over NYS, spending about 5 years in Potsdam during and after college before moving to Buffalo for a few years (grew up NYC metro area).
One of your best Episodes so far my friend. I love the history of Naval Warfare throughout History, From BC onwards. I, being an old History buff, and an old hippie, would love to see an episode on the Naval Battles of the Punic wars for control of the Med. I am sure , with your sense of humor, that it would be epic. Thanks for the great content my friend
Oh no drach, why you gotta do me like that. Dropping a 48 minute long video right before I have to go to school
same here
Don’t worry I am at school now waiting to go to first period.
Growing up in upstate NY this was covered fairly well in school. Good job as always mate.
Are you planning one of these beautiful, sarcastic, fantastic documentaries over the Civil War's river combat along the Mississippi?
Battle of the cotton clads.
My great grandmother used to live on the edge of Lake Eerie. So strange to know the lake I swam in as a kid had these ships duking it out.
19:57 So this was the famous Patton's "Rommel, you magnificent basterd, I read your book" 1813 style?
While that is a fun quote from the movie, it's unfortunately not true to history. The movie implies that Patton was able to defeat Rommel because he had read a book by Rommel detailing his tank warfare tactics. While Rommel did plan such a book, and even took extensive notes from the fields of battle, he was unable to complete the book prior to his "medical accident". However, Rommel had written a book, "Infanterie Greift An", that was published prior to WWII, but as the title would suggest, was focused on infantry operations based on Rommel's experiences from WWI.
@@caseytaylor1487 what a posh way to say forced suicide
Bravo. A splendid story well told.
Oneida is pronounced with a long "i" the same way you'd pronounce "night". At least in modern American parlance. I not sure about the original Iroquois.
Having served at Fort Drum, which is close to Sackets Harbor, it amazes me how these men were able to build ships on the shores of the lakes. The weather is astonishing in its brutality in the winter (there are four seasons on Lake Ontario, June, July, August and Winter). The wind causes tress to be barren on the side facing the lake, and can not imagine the difficulty in constructing vessels of that size, at that speed, in that environment. For those of you who have not visited that part of Canada and the US, in the non-winter months, it can be breathtakingly beautiful. Loved Kingston and Sackets Harbor.
Ah yes, American Revolution Part 2, Lakeside Boogaloo...
Brits never stood a chance. Perry's middle name was "Danger"
Recently we sailed into Canada's northern region without asking, and they said it was basically an act of war 😂
Ok Canada. *Pats your head* run along now,
Consider it from our perspective. Nobody's tried to invade us since 1815, and there wasn't much success at the time. If you think *Russia* is a good place for an army to freeze to death among a hostile populace, hold my beer. And that aggressive attitude to northern sovreignty is the only thing keeping us from being the newly conquered region of Extremely Northern Russia.
@@johnladuke6475 we could probably conquer all of Canada within a couple of weeks if not days. that's what I was saying.
@@mollysmoshingtankcrew9441 Refer to the comparison to Russia. I believe such prophetic visions of quick success were offered to both Napoleon and Hitler, with essentially the same result. It's real easy to conquer vast stretches of frozen land until you actually start trying to do it.
Pats a Canadian on head, gets teeth punched down throat in return.
@@deadon4847While I am a proud American, I can't imagine why anyone would want to "invade" Canada - in 1812, 1912, or anytime!
I am sure our fledgling nation's leaders saw Britain as the ongoing enemy; with the recent revolution's feeling still smoldering in their minds. I am sure they thought they "won" the war - as opposed to the world's superpower merely deciding it was becoming too expensive to continue fighting and pulled off the world's first "withdrawal with dignity." I am not sure they recognized how vulnerable the young nation was; being isolated between two huge oceans would have been the only comfort.
For all of the goofy mistakes and foolish moves made by us throughout history - somehow, I think the best thing is to learn from our errors and do all we can to respect and support our neighbors.