I learned this on a much smaller scale. When I was between bands, I noticed a lot of my friends that were in bands were complaining about poor attendance. Apparently all they did was make a Facebook event and promote it online and that's it. When I joined a band, I kind of took over booking for a few shows a year, and I would print out posters and flyers, take them to the venue and put them up all over the place about a month before the show. I would also put them up at local music stores and area businesses that would let me put them up. The important thing was having QR codes with the band page, as well as the event page so people can check it out instantly on their phones. All of our shows were packed when I did that. The old school tactics still work.
Mary Spender understandably has gotten carried away with TH-cam popularity and learned that success on social media does not translate to success in live concerts. The reality is she has the option to grab a guitar and tour the UK doing solo acoustic shows and that is not easy. She says she is in her 30’s now so pop music is the domain of the young and so continuing to sink more money into tours may put her in a financial hole unless she does solo acoustic tours. Mary should work the TH-cam angle and focus on that as a goal. Roll with the changes as REO sang.
@@tod3msn If she actually wanted to become an artist she should start by focus on recording songs that attract an bigger audience. You need "hits" if you want to make en living on you original music. Most people buy tickets to hear songs they know and enjoy. Marys viral "hit" is the cover with Leo from Frog Leap. He can as an youtuber act gather an solid live audience, highly because he focus on performing fun versions of known hits.
I was actually surprised that she headlined her own tour right off the bat …traditionally you collab with veteran touring bands or at least another up and coming act…
This is the way to do it. When you are starting out, nobody knows your music, so why would they fork out money to see you? Opening for bands that already have a following is an incredible opportunity and is the way to grow your audience, but you have to bring it. You may not want to upstage the headliner, but you can definitely make an impression where people want to find out more about you and discover your music.
Not necessarily. We have a small venue in town that features folks coming into town, sometimes solo acts and sometimes small bands, doing acoustic shows multiple nights a week. You've never heard of any of them outside of the rare act. Amy Ray of the Indigo Girls brought her solo band there. And, Tanita Tikaram performed there last year. If you know both these ladies - good for you. Lots of local folks play there. I think the venue fits 100 people maybe 150. There's not a lot of money here, so if you're splitting that with an opening act after splitting it with your 3 bandmates ... $30 a ticket x 100, divided by 2 bands, plus the venue cost .... Never seen anyone come to this venue with an opening act. While don't forget the house party circuit. Though, I don't know if its as big post-Covid.
@@hinduismwithpremananddasbhagat that is okay-ish for that specific venue in your town. Now when we are talking about a whole tour, you should get another band with a bigger draw. Honestly, if she has a big online following, she could have gotten an opening spot with an established band and prob made more money...
Read an interview with Creed's manager years ago when they were unknown. He picked the 10 closest cities to their hometown in Florida. They played the same 10 cities every 3 months for a whole year for a total of 4 shows per city that year. First round, they had about 10 people per show. Second round about 100. Third round about 500. Fourth round were selling out 2,000 seat venues. The time off in-between the mini-tours was spent promoting the next round. Then they got signed and so on.
A very good manager. I've known this procedure for 30 years: you must establish dominance in your hometown first, then expand to the nearest cities, and so on. What she did was completely unprofessional.
There’s a possibility that the music scene/business has changed since the days when Creed was unknown. Do you really think that would work these days for them again?
I want to expand on some of the comments here about online presence and IRL draw being two different things (I agree 100%). I'm a big fan of Mary's TH-cam channel and deeply appreciate her openness about so many music and music-related topics. BUT....while she is a definitely skilled musician, I don't much care for the music she creates and would likely pass on an opportunity to see her play live. I have no idea what percent of her fan base might feel the same way, but when I watched her postmortem video and learned that she sold ~60% of available tickets, I wondered if she overestimated the % of her channel fans that would be likely to come to her shows. I can imagine that is really difficult to suss out until you've actually taken the leap and done it. So good on you, Mary, and thanks for sharing. And thanks, Mike, for your perspectives as well.
I'm with you all the way. As far as looking at this with onstage and on video, at least she's not a looper up onstage all by herself. I've done a lot of gigs where the band supported a front-man who couldn't keep it going himself, so it's nice she had a back-up band to fall back on.
That's a great point, and I'm in the same boat. I love a lot of Mary's content on YT, but I don't also happen to be a fan of the music genre she's into. And she's far from the exception in that regard. Hell, I absolutely hate jazz, and yet I absolutely love Adam Neely's videos! I care very little for electronic music but I'm a big fan of Benn Jordan and Venus Theory for their perspectives and discussions about music making. Conversely, most artists and bands whose music I love listening to don't have much of an online presence, and those who do rarely have much to offer that I don't already get from their records. These are two very different sets of skills and types of content, and if someone happens to be right up my alley in both, it would be the exception rather than the rule. Regardless, I feel for Mary's difficult touring experience, and I hope things will get better for her in that department. I appreciate her sharing it all with us online, and Mike's commentary on her video was an interesting piece as well (I'm not familiar with either this channel or his band, this video was suggested to me by the algorithm while I was watching Mary's, by the way!). Best to all.
That's the point. For the most part, the only musicians who should expect that their on-line followers will show up at their live shows are those whose channels are specifically about them performing music.
@@legendmaker694 you and I clearly have similar YT tastes and music prefs. I too am a huge fan of Benn and Venus Theory (add Jameson Nathan Jones to that list) YT content but not necessarily their music.
I think many people agree that Mary Spender is first of all an excellent presenter, host and reporter. Me too, I watch her channel more for the presentation and the insights than for her music. As a musician she is good but in my view not excellent and the style of her music is probably not at the peak of popularity. I think she could earn a very decent salary as a presenter or host for radio tv or any company. Although not impossible, earning a reasonable salary with her music seems just a bit more difficult and I wonder a bit whether she recognizes that herself.
On my last touring gig,I spent a few years before Covid hit touring as the bassist with the Motown group The Miracles. Played at top venues, always sold out, went first class and we as the musicians got paid well compared to most. But we were very well backed and had a professional management team and of course the legendary franchise backed by Claudette Robinson herself who owns the rights and often appeared with the group. I don’t know how these online artists think they can tour without substantial backing. Labels would provide tour support to promote a new album and sell merchandise but those days are done. Only the biggest artists can tour and make any real money these days. TH-cam popularity doesn’t equate to butts in the seats. At 65 now I’m done with touring. Even at its best it’s a grind. What’s sad is that young musicians will never get to have the session experiences we all had back in the 70s and 80s in LA. That time was magic!
No doubt! I feel blessed just growing up in Detroit in the 60's & 70's From the concerts to the bars & lounges, the music scene was heavenly! Berry Gordy was in the news daily ........... I need a wayback machine!
Who wants to deal with a Label ?? See @toddkeller comment. It helps to have good songs. 🤣 Most people want to party and have a good time. Sex sells also😂.A gimmick maybe ? Great musicianship ?You really have to have something to make people leave the comfort of their couch.
This is the difference between being popular on social media vs being popular on stage. Social media rewards quantity over quality whereas musical performances reward the opposite.
I know a musician who is huge on youtube for her instructional videos. Yet, constantly is asking why folks don't show up at her band gigs, or why they get second stage when she has a monetized youtube channel. She doesn't realize that online vs on stage are different, and instructional videos doesn't mean folks are listening to her band.
this is actually what it’s all about, online presenters sometimes live in a bubble of their own creation, it’s not always parents. they actually think they are celebrities because people view their content in video form…
She does not have broad musical appeal. This translates into low ticket sales even in small venues.Then at the end of her video, she promotes a course in how to be a successful musician. Ironic?
That's exactly it. She's nice enough as a TH-camr. Not that I really watch much of her but bland acoustic singer songwriter music, she really should know better. It's been done and it's been done a lot better. I think she confused her youtube profile with her Spotify profile.
@@TJ-vt6rt Yeah I like her as a TH-camr for the most part, although I rarely watch her anymore. That said I really don't care for her musical content. No hate, just not interesting to me and sometimes even a bit annoying.
I went to one of her gigs, I live locally and have a music website and socials and I write for a Music Mag....I follow Mary on most platforms yet I didnt get hardly any promo pop ups on my feeds...now...I tried to contact Mary many times ahead of the gig to offer to help promo it locally, I could have brought along at least another 15-20 people, but....she didnt respond....and from what I can see....she never responds to anything posted on her socials, she’s busy I get that....but clearly she could have used the help....so...
Hiring 8 venues out completely for her first ever tour (and apparently not even checking the tech spec?!?) instead of using local promoters or agents tells me she has literally no-one with any experience steering her. Massive respect for doing it but she's also charging punters for a course and that's a red line to me, whiffs of pyramid scheme. Great yt content tho.
@@JoeParkerAndThePower Yeah I think shes lost in the system TBH, YouTUbe is her vehicle for funding her music, one cant survive without the other now...a rock road.
Agreed but she comes across as one of those old Radio 1 DJs that gets moved to Radio 2 and I’m listening thinking, yeah you should have retired years ago.
Yes I have to agree… she does a great job as a presenter, and her TH-cam guitar stuff is nice…. Yet in the live clips I’ve seen of her she’s hardly showcasing her guitar playing at all, and the songs are (IMHO) not strong enough.
Yeah.. I just think she doesn't have the "it" factor. I watched a bunch of her covers, and none of them connected. Her voice just isn't that interesting/charismatic. OTOH, I can listen to Haley Reinhart cover anything at PMJ, and get goosebumps. I'd go out of my way to see Haley, but not Mary.
I didn't finish her video (I like her stuff but find them often a bit ponderous so generally only get 50-75% into her videos before quitting) so I didn't even know that! Ugh.
@@berniebro420 She is part of that community, liked it better when she tried to be Adam Neely rather than Rick Beato. So much 'vague-posting' clickbait stuff now. False melodrama - some of the content is decent, but seldom worth the time.
Mary has a great personality for the type of videos that she does, but I'm sorry to say her own music just doesn't have a big enough 'hook'. I listened to her recent album after this tour news came out to try and see why her tour went bust and I couldn't find one song on the album that grabbed my attention. Most of the songs felt like background music. I think before she does any touring again she needs to work on her song writing a lot more, or at least work with a producer who can help elevate her work to the next level. She's clearly a talented musician, but the type of easy listening music that she currently writes isn't structured or produced well enough to sell tickets on mass. That's the lesson she needs to learn first.
a couple of her songs have *some* potential - but it never builds! it's a classic mistake you see and hear at so many open-mics . . there's a 'good bit', but then it's gone and in rolls a load of sludge
@@GaZonk100 Open mic is actually a pretty good description for her style. The problem with those type of performers is they generally don't stand out enough. For every girl discovered singing at the local coffee shop like Jewel, there's a hundred girls who's songs just becomes background music.
The drama also reminds somewhat of Amanda Palmer in 2012, whose community spent a million on her kickstarter, but then she requested the same community to come play for/with her without any kind of compensation. It caused quite a stir, there's an article on it: "Will (Not) Play For Hugs And Beer" Got to respect Mary Spender that she just paid the band, no crowdsourcing/ "exposure" bs!
Well, with all due respect, when I watch her videos, one thing I notice-- she seems to live in a very nice apartment. She has loads of very expensive guitars. I see a Two Rock Amp in the background. The bottom line? Sure, she lost a lot of money on tour. But she obviously HAS a lot of money- and makes a lot of money from other sources. She went on tour- and lost money- because she could afford to. I find she is being a little shady, a little covert, about how she makes her money. Because she is clearly not struggling or losing money big picture. No struggling artist has a two Rock amp and a $5000 signature guitar. She made her “ I lost $15000 on my tour” video for one main reason- to elicit both sympathy and more support for her channel.
If you dig a little deeper into her videos, she'll talk about how she makes her money and the various roles that she has to take on in order to make things work. I do think that the history of her rise is possibly a little shady. How did she afford to move abroad/spend so much time outside of the UK at such a young age? etc, but in general I think she's pretty open about the way she makes money and that she's been lucky to be endorsed and get freebies from time to time.
@@gregmacdonald666 Honestly, I don’t think she’s being particularly open at all about how she makes money. And don’t get me wrong- she is without doubt under no obligation whatsoever to divulge her personal information regarding income. But I also feel by with holding said information, she is grifting patrons by every few months playing the “woe is me” suffering musician card, carefully creating a narrative where she- and others- are the victim of a cruel and unfair music industry, (spotify pay etc).
Jumped straight into touring like she's big time when she's simply just 'youtube famous'... completely skipped years of building a live following. Ya gotta build it first. Ffs.
Great breakdown, very informative without belittling her in any way. Mary's fans will love the respect you show her and her efforts. I SUB'd and then went to look at The Rumjacks. I was laughing when I realized I had just watched your "viral video" 2 days ago! (SUB'd there also). Then I watched your "An Irish Goodbye on St. Valentines Day" and was even more impressed. Hope to attend one of your shows someday!
"Already on her staff for her YT business" says it all really. Mary Spender is a youtube brand. Mary comes from money, the way to look at it is the tour was free, it paid for itself. She can well afford the investment of 12k post tour PR campaign that your channel and others are buying into to promote her female orientated channel which is her main source of income and a business which she employs people, the music and tour is a paid hobby.
a business that loses money is still a business - various startups always come with a practical guarantee of losing money for a certain period of time before they can even begin to turn a profit - and at least there can be some tax benefits for operating a losing business - though not sure how that works in the UK ..
@@billyz5088 Nah she's primarily a TH-camr, the losses from this little tour are offset by her YT income, and making a video about the 'money losing tour' is a genius business idea. No risk or loss at all.
@@mipmipmipmipmip-v5x Yeah people would spend a lot more for this kind of exposure. Thouds of views, tags and consequently sponsorships are worth a lot more than 12 grand, granting it's all true anyhow.
The reality is Mary is not a popular musician. Very few musicians are popular enough to carry a tour. Do we need to argue with reality that unknown musicians should not be on tour? If she wants to tour she needs to take a guitar and do solo acoustic shows. Hotels are expensive. I traveled and was taken back by the “holds” that pop up so a hotel will “hold” a percentage in case of damages which does not seem fair. Anyway, I learned to ask about “holds” in the future.
I hate it with a PASSION!! People are not made of money and when 'THEY' put some 'HOLD' on your card, it limits you and what you can do while you are where you are. However, you are right, sometimes and depending the hotel, they will bypass those 'HOLDS'. - J.D. WATKINS
I think the real takeaway here is that she is not popular enough to go on tour. She doesn't have a big enough draw even after planning for a year and promoting her shows. She should start where she lives using backing tracks and building a following before going all over the UK. She should not be paying her manager unless he is booking gigs and doing all the work that it sounds like she did. And after losing $12,000 she is the last person who should give advice on how to go on tour.
The "manager" is her brother which she already have employed to help running her medias. She mentioned in an earlier video she has 2 fulltime employees and a part-time for the bookkeeping. She basically doing so well as an TH-camr she can afford these kind of losses. I guess the album and the tour was highly an vanity project. She originally wanted to become an known artist, but ended as an succesful youtuber.
I have known players from platinum selling bands (i.e., net worth in the several millions with connections to the best promoters, agents, managers) go out on their own and tour on an album with radio and MTV play (back when those were things) and come out in the hole 5-figures on the first tour. Touring as a headliner is expensive.
I think this is misleading. She's known within a very small circle on TH-cam. There's a group of content creators that includes Rob Scallon, Beato etc, usually other guitarists etc. Within the amateur guitarist community she might be "known" but beyond that, 750k subscribers aint that much.
having that 'spark' - or energy in a band ( or as a singer-songwriter ) - is a must in order to draw people out to shows. Seems like a band format - 3 to 5 people - who play together long-term - ( as opposed to hiring a backing band ) - would seem more conducive to having that energy that both band & audience thrive on - otherwise it's just on one person to generate that - with a backing band that is just sort of 'going thru the motions' ..
I discovered Mary Spender when she recorded the cover of Sultan of Swing with Leo Moracchioli. I subscribed to her channel because I thought she might do more things like this. I unsubscribed maybe 6 months later although I keep watching some videos of hers from time to time, just to confirm that I really don’t like her music. She is a skilled guitarist and a decent singer, but as it has been said many times in this comments thread, her music is really boring to me, and I wouldn’t go to a live show to see her playing and singing. I think it is part of what happened to her, many people see her videos for other reasons than her music, but when comes the time to play in front of an audience, only the music you play matters. Many other TH-camrs are trying the real world touring experience, and either they play as a backing artist, or they team up to gather more people (e.g. Bernth, Ola and Berthoud, and those guys do have experience playing live and they are also virtuosos, and some people will go to see them for this reason).
Well, not meaning to be unkind, but I just watched a video of her live performance, "One Kept Secret - Bristol 25.09.2024." I can't say it inspired me to look for future live performances.
its all about the songs...if you have a hit song(s), or some kind of music where people could dance, and/or get connected in emotional way, then you will have no problem with filling gigs. But with no such songs, be realistic...only few people will come. Specially since younger generations are not that much into music, and concerts, and "middle-aged" people have daytime jobs, families..they can't go to concert on Tuesday night in 22:00, which starts at 23:00 till 1:00 AM. Generally..have a day job, and do music for yourself, and if you get lucky with songs.. transfer to full time musician.
Hey Mike! I applaud YOUR video. First time I am catching you. I play professionally..and have been for a loong time. I kinda sat out the death of recorded music period (2000-2010) and just recorded during that time (Solo material, music for TV, Movies etc). I am now more agressively playing live..and I TOTALLY agree there is IRL and then social media. I substantially discount social media stars..as they can't fill rooms and often haven't developed the LIVE skills so needed to play gigs and stay booked. Hats off, though....to do social media is a skill, as well. I think until the music/entertainment business reboots with proper remuneration for its content creators..touring will be just one prong of a multi-prong approach to gaining an audience. And PS: Mary Spender is MOST HIGH in everyones respect. She tells of her sucesses and lesser moments with equal candor. There are few held with similar respect. I think her next tour will succeed in ways beyond her expectations.
You’re only selling 60% of tickets and only playing to 1,200 people in total across the tour…. You’re travelling with a full band of session musicians that you have to pay… and staying in hotels… Why would anyone be surprised that you would lose money? She’s absolutely not touring the right way. The only way those gigs could’ve been been profitable is if she had played the gigs solo. No backing band. If she keeps touring in exactly the same way, as you suggest, she will lose even more money. A lot of people watching free videos on their phone means nothing when it comes to how many will leave their home, travel to a gig and pay for a ticket to see you. This has been obvious for years.
Online presence doesn't mean anything. Remember 'Snakes on a Plane'? That's the lesson content creators need to understand. Online hype takes zero effort so it's actual value is zero.
she is a somewhat "beautiful" girl, with (most likely) hundrets of thousands of fake subs and now she got an reality check. Having a quarter Million subs and only selling 1200 tickets in total is insane to me. Maybe she should team up with that Adam Neely Clown, his music is even worse..but maybe together they will cover the full authistic, i mean ACOUSTIC, spectrum..
Hey I saw you guys with DKM last year (year before?) in Asheville NC, and love you guys! Glad to see you have a youtube channel I can geek out over. Cheers from NC.
I made a feature-length documentary about DIY touring (Mary actually name dropped it once), one thing that nearly everyone in it pointed out was that you eat s**t on your first tour. The more you stay out there, the more you build up your audience and network, but don't expect to make anything the first one.
I remember a couple friends of mine were going to a show of a guitar player who had a viral video with millions of views. I knew of it and tagged along. Was about 20-30 people in the small listening room venue which had a capacity of about 55. Also, my friends were woman and only wanted to go because the artist was good looking.
bro, that was an amazing road worthy analysis of what she did, i'm a geezer, 54, in 2023, crushed out 5 months in western canada, 5 provinces and 50 shows, booked it myself, all done with pick up bands and no merch, but in the prairies of canada we had a blast, packing 100 - 250 rooms, based on our name, horse funeral band, we always made money in the prairies of canada, despite long distance traveling, but i know how to tour, there's always a band house to crash in at a university and i always sleep in the tub, lol, no crabs or bedbugs, but we were always depressed coming back to british columbia because it is so expensive to tour here, gas ,food, and it's mountainous as fuck, so you burn through more fuel than the prairies, british columbia cost of living is also so brutal that the people can only afford one show a month and it's gotta be a banger, so new bands have to fight against that. it's a fucked up situation.
Todd Rundgren had interesting observation, about Meat Loaf. “If you’re willing to to go out there and shamelessly flog your product, every night and repeatedly hitting the same markets, you will invariably build an audience, if you have anything of interest.” I think that applies here.
Watched several of her videos but never heard a single song. I know her more as a "person" or a content creator, not a musician. She'd do better as a paid speaker with a Q&A after. Sell some signed books (if she had one), etc. What people want to get paid for, and what people want to pay your for, are usually two different things. I remember hearing a clip of Jimi Hendrex playing live; was about a year before his death. The crowd was giving him grief because they didn't want to hear his new material. Even the great one himself wasn't giving them what the people wanted. Last week I was feeling sorry for myself due to slow growth of my own TH-cam channel. Then I ran across the one ran by Milana Vayntrub, she played "Lily" in the popular AT&T commercials. Her channel started about the same time as mine, but she only has a little over 200 subscribers. People liked her as the comedic "girl next door" but have no interest in hearing about her journey as a new mother. Do what you need to do to pay the bills. Also do what you love, just don't expect any money to come along. If it does, you're a rare exception.
The interesting thing is she has immediately put out a video course on how to tour as if she can be sure she learned anything, which is impossible to know until she implements the changes and has a successful tour.
Even local scenes are seeing this. There’s bands with 100k streams and they can’t put 25 people in a room. Monthly listeners and fans are too different things. I’m glad the industry is starting to see that.
thanks mike i really enjoyed your take on mary,s experience . i too watched that video.. while i think she is a nice person maybe just doesnt have everything , i mean we all need people right!? i don,t think any one makes it on their own! we all have our own tastes and opinions on everything the irony of vloggs or home streaming is the artist is streaming from home to other people in their homes.. it's a whole shitty big bad world when you actually have to go outside in the elements in the real world lugging gear around, setting up, taking down ,driving,travelling, eating, sleeping controlling nerves, anger, frustrations, and even after that things can and will still go wrong with the goal of being liked you have to have the love for what your doing first and its a bonus if people like you. and turn up for support & the most important thing you need for that is TIME also i like to make my own choices to like or dislike everything there is in life i don,t need prompted or told nothing wrong with a nice pointer or nudge tho mind !!? i prefer not to say bad things about people trying to create or make something from nothing. better to make music than to not at all someone somewhere will like it and appreciate it.. hopefully, we live & learn as they say.. the people who can adapt & change will be the ones who will triumph to different degrees of succes , fame, or finance!! fun as well
Not a fan of Mary's, i got tired of her stuff and didn't watch her video but i enjoyed your video and your great advice. There are a few musicians I love who are big in certain areas or certain circles and are well known on YT but when they come to the small western Canadian city i live in, they play very small venues and most people I talk with have no idea who they are. Running a successful business is hard, doing it in an artistic field is even harder. I think it's spot on that there's a huge difference between internet musicians and IRL musicians and it's just the reality that no matter how many followers you have online, they don't carry over and you really have to start over and build up your IRL audience.
Back in the 80s in LA there were tons of small local clubs that held just a couple of hundred people and would be filled most nights, even weeknights. They all pretty much vanished by early 2000s and have never really been replaced. People just don't go out anymore especially to see live bands. I now live in the Philippines and we have the same issue of no one wanting to see live music.
@@herbtube7824 Even that is changing somewhat. 2024 was the year of the disappearing festival; at least a couple dozen USA events went away within weeks of opening when tickets didn't sell enough to cover the new increased costs of running a festival. Tay-Tay will sell out no matter what and she's got some professional, international company that put butts in seats. But further down the live show food chain and things are far less certain. For artists that are self-promoting their shows, like Mary, the risks are huge and the rewards a serious gamble.
@@herbtube7824- it’s now an extreme situation for live music. Unlimited demand for Eagles, Springsteen, Oasis in the arena at £250 a seat - yet no slates for £2.50 in the club down the road.
Yeah, I understand that it would seem incongruent with expectations that someone with millions of TH-cam views would only sell fewer than 2,000 tickets, but those TH-cam views are free and don't require the viewer to extricate their behinds from their comfy chair. Furthermore, many people are grappling with inflation and uncertainty.
I like Mary so I don't mean this as an insult... but she's TH-cam famous for talking, not for her songs. Kind of like how Joe Rogan is the biggest podcaster on the planet but he's not performing his comedy in stadiums. He plays small theaters. He's a podcaster who also does comedy. Bill Burr is a comedian who also does a podcast. That said, I DO like her playing and I think her videos are great.
I love Mary but when you only have 5,195 monthly spotify listeners, it is insane to tour at all. She is not known for her music, she is know for her podcast. IN THE LEAST she should have had a half speaking / playing tour. She could have had the audience asking questions and meet and greets for an extra payment. She should have just hired two musicians. This would have been much more successful.
Economically, based on tickets sold vs expenses, she treated it as a vanity tour. If someone is independently wealthy, and wants to do it like that, that's great. It sure beats sleeping in a van, and touring with a less flattering rhythm section, with no rider, no per diem, no support staff, no etc. So, her touring lifestyle didn't quite match the venue size and fanbase. Probably in a couple of years, as the crowd size builds, then the tour can support that level of expenditure. If she can afford to spend above and beyond, while building a live fanbase, then that's great. If I could afford a hotel, I would take that every single night.
I’d say her online presence is her draw more than her music. I like her videos but am not keen to her music. I probably would not go see her but will watch every video she makes. They represent two different sides to her.
You nailed it with Online/IRL, subscribing to artists on youtube is free, buying tickets, hotels, travel, food, merch etc is expensive. I also feel there was logistical failures, a lot of the planning with venues, tickets etc was handled by herself, tour manager must've thought it was the easiest time ever. Micro managing your own band and playing is incredibly time consuming and the minute you take your foot off the gas you lose money. Having a full band for a solo artist, with hotels and media team, its not wonder you are losing money. At the end of her video she says she would go solo, merge the tour manager/merch role and increase the ticket price. The one thing I didn't like was her blaming turnouts in specific cities. Halestorm once played glasgow garage G2 to 50 people, 10 years later they sold out 12,000 hydro. Losses are part of the game, its why not everyone is successful, they cant persevere over those losses.
If your popularity is based on people watching you at home from their bed or couch for free this might not translate to people traveling 20 miles and paying to see you live.
Come on, she acted like she was the first person on Earth to ever go on tour and had to "learn lessons" along the way. If she had read even one book about touring, she wouldn’t have made any of the mistakes she did. Pure hubris.
Respect for people giving it a go on tour. Touring is hard to make a living from. As many people have said in the comments - people will go to see good live music - and to build that up takes time playing gigs, not making youtube videos or producing online course. But she had the balls to give it a good go. Most people are too scared to try (or too skint)
It’s not even about online presence. Mary’s TH-cam is more educational than musical. She has about 5k monthly followers on Spotify. Those are two different things.
The video was good until she mentioned she was selling a course on how to tour successfully 😅 I usually like her channel but it seems like people with big channels think they are above everyone.
Yes, my immediate thought when I got to that part of the video was, "But how do I KNOW that the 'course' will give me the right knowledge?? You haven't stress-tested your new approach."
Why don`t you just say that you don`t like her music instead of being so negative? Maybe it`s just not for you, but apparently there are people who like what she does. No need for hate, man...
@@janinee6733 apparently not...which is the whole reason for this discussion...she has a big yt following but hardly anyone wanted to fork out to see her perform live
Mary is a good TH-camr but sadly doesn't have a lot of musical talent though she is a fine guitarist.. She would never have gained a record deal in the legacy music business. Songs are weak as are her vocals. Had her material and performances been top notch then she would have sold out all venues.
I love Mary's youtube, she's a very knowledgable person, makes great guitar related content and is open, insightful, honest, upfront and vulnerable. All of which makes her channel great and it's why I've been subscribed for years. On a personal level, I just don't connect with her music. I'd see her if she was a support act, but I wouldn't pay £20-£30 solely to watch her.
$5k a show for a small indie artist trying to establish a market is nuts. 3 staff and not a FOH mixer ! Consolidate roles. Tour manager and FOH can be 1 person. Also you are right in that touring as support with an established act that aligns with your target audience, is the best way to get yourself in front of as many people as possible, for minimal cost. Basically Mary tried to tour at a level above where she is actually at. Champaigne taste - beer pocket. Also trying to sell a touring course on the back of this is def not a wise move. She has had a costly lesson in how online followers doesn't necessarily translate to bums on seats, so to speak. Hope she gets it right next time.
Thanks for this post. It tagged on to Mary's your video or I would not have see. It is a great support and helpful post. While I have no intention of touring (way too old and unskilled for that). It was informative. Thanks again.
It is interesting that she’s put together a course on it, yet isn’t really successful at it yet. …and I’m sure she has a lot more going for her than my band would.
As others have said, having all those TH-cam views doesn't necessarily translate into that many people actually being bothered to go out and see you play live.
Her video was a good breakdown of the reality of touring. And probably a lot of lessons learned, which she was kind enough to explain to her audience. And she got a lot of advice in the comments from old hands. If you look at the losses from touring that some huge bands have taken, 12K is a drop in the bucket. If she enjoyed it, well, it was basically a very expensive holiday.
Come on, she acted like she was the first person on Earth to ever go on tour and had to "learn lessons" along the way. If she had read even one book about touring, she wouldn’t have made any of the mistakes she did. Pure hubris.
She talked about hiring the venues, and the cost involved. We don’t go on tour until we get the venues to hire us, if she has almost a million TH-cam subs she should be able to sell her show to presenters….
Excellent point, and the first thing that lept out at me when I watched the video. If a year was spent planning the tour surely liaising with venues could have avoided this cost?
Just to clarify, “hiring” in the English/British dialect just means “renting”. Independent acts like ourselves often rent venues rather than go through promoters and we act as the promoter so we can get a much better payout in the end which is what Mary did. We’ve been more successful at it stateside and mainly by going out for often way less than 13 days at a time like she did so it’s a viable way to do it and lots of successful independent artists do it.
Leasing a venue is more popular than not. I know a band that has been leasing venues in states they haven't been to in a decade or never been to. They are trying to establish themselves so next year the venue invites them back and they don't have to lease.
I watched Mary Spender break down the cost of the tour and I think a lot of the issue is that over half of her TH-cam fanbase live in the U.S.. Opposite your situation she would probably do better here.
haven't watched yet but just on the highlights in the intro tit seemed like an awful lot of effort for two weeks in a van. She would almost certainly have done better if she was out longer and had less overhead. Also the right mix of Merch is critically important. I personally try to buy a CDs from the band at minimum but damn I'd love a T shirt or two but some designs are just too awful to consider.
buddy, if a quarter million subs (regardless the country) + a year of planning and promotion, is not enough to pull off a successful tour, then what is? Bottom Line: a lot of her subs might be fake and her music is at best average. There is nothing special or unique about her and also the arrogance, to go on "tour" without any support act etc. to draw more people to the shows is insane.. even big big big acts rarely or never go on tour "alone"
TH-camrs on tour is like ”single”-artists back in the day. People only know one song. Not an album. You can have 10 million followers and nobody shows up cause you are NOT a musical act for real
Contrast blues player Samantha Fish vs. singer/songwriter Mary Spender. Samantha is in "show business". Mary is a beautiful British lady who also sings.
I played in a country band many years ago where we converted a single-decker bus with storage and 4 bunks. Unfortunately after several hundred gigs, and a lot of miles,it eventually broke down on the way to a well-paying USAAF Airbase gig, so we lost that fee, and the fee from the previous gig at the same base paying for recovery of bus ! ☹️ That's showbiz !
I dunno man I feel like most of her fans are people at or close to retirement age I doubt theyd have the energy to even go to her gigs. She makes the kinda videos my grandma puts on her ipad to feel like theres company.
Well where I live kids don't even go to gigs, you won't see anyone under 30 at some gigs. You young people are a bunch of wusses who sit at home being boring.
All of it can be summed up in that she VASTLY overestimated her popularity. Her channel is big but not that big, she's not known for her music but more as a lifestyle vlogger who plays music. I looked at her tour expenses and she threw money at things she didnt have to. The tour was doomed from the start, going as a headliner, not keeping things local, overpaying for a videographer, the drum skin, not having her own pa, overpaying for what are likely studio musicians instead of finding cheaper local talent. This is where I get pedantic. Her music isnt exciting or novel. Its coffee shop rock, if I can even call it rock. If I got $20 to spend on a ticket, do I wanna go see something fun or something that puts me to sleep? I have to honest, she doesnt stand out. If it wasnt for her channel, I'd never know who she was or have any concern.
01:10. 13 shows…. 1200 tickets sold. And something she spent A FULL YEAR PLA$*$*$&$**#ning. A full year planning (??). What!? 13 shows. A FULL YEAR planning? I have a suggestion. Maybe, just maybe, someone who spends A FULL YEAR PLANNING a 13-shows tour, isn’t a good example of business acumen.
@@crouchingtiger9108 It fucking IS a vanity project! She literally had ZERO demand for this and acted as if she was a big star! She is not! Vanity project start to finish and now she's crying because reality showed her she's not the big star!
In Canada we have Home Routes. They book 12 show tours in people's homes. 2 weeks. 20 tickets at $20 max. Artist gets all $400 plus free room and meal. Host gets private show with exceptional indie artists. Artist pays transportation and per diems. Solo artists mostly. Come home with $3000-$4000. 2-3 times per year at most.
I thought it was a rule of thumb that you have to hit the same places three times before you start actually pulling in a crowd. Has been decades since I heard that though.
In general, I’ve never quite understood Mary Spender’s appeal. While she’s a fantastic speaker and I enjoy her videos-she often presents a compelling narrative-I find her music to be relatively average. It’s not something that would make me go out of my way to see her perform live. There’s nothing inherently wrong with her music; its just not good enough.
Yeah man, your point is just brilliant. I bet many of us fellow musicians felt the same when watching her video. Headlining in your first tour is a bad idea if you don't know how many people will show up with a ticket. You better jump on some other band's backseat and let them walk you through their venues sharing expenses. At least that's how I did it back in the day, bands who had made it for decades were dying for taking new bands on board and they were even willing to share their equipment with us, which in many cases was way better than ours!! Also, being such a good solo performer as she is, she should consider the possibility of having different formats for her live material (solo, duo, three piece, more?). Many bands started touring as a duo to reduce costs and then went big once they could afford it. And definitely... hiring local musicians instead of flying them from around the world would help a whole lot and it would be very considerate with the local roster of struggling music makers.
Biggest stumbling block seemed to be ticket sales. She said she sold 63% of tickets. Had she sold 100%, and not made the VAT / pricing mistake she'd probably have broken even or even made some money. Which does emphasise the IRL / online presence dichotomy. The following she has I'd have thought she'd easily sell tickets, again depending on how that following breaks down for UK based followers. Was it poor venue choice? Bad nights to play the gigs? Who knows. I do know the gigs she did I could have got to I couldn't get time off work to go to, and couldn't make the travel time if i didnt. Things are just very expensive here. Hotels, even budget ones arent cheap. Fuel for the van is ridiculous. The wages for the musicians wasn't a lot for 13 days plus rehearsal days. Barely over minimum wage really. Ticket sales and venues seem to have been what caused the shortfall really.
Her biggest stumbling block was looking after the musicians she used too well, instead of paying them £100 per gig and telling them to find their own transport/accommodation/food. She's too nice for her own good.
@alfsmith4936 Eh, if that's the offer you're going to make, you might as well just do a solo tour. Offering less than minimum wage for an eight hour day plus expenses for the services of a professional is just insulting.
@alfsmith4936 That's insulting indeed. What professional musician in their right mind would accept such a low ball offer? £100 does not pay for their transport/accomodation/food on a tour. So you're really asking professional musicians to come play with you for two weeks for free?
Hire kids just out of school. Call it an internship. Pay them $100 plus per diem. Have them use their social media to help promote the gig. My first big gig we got paid in tickets. 100 tics we could sell at any price. I sold my 20 for about 80 bucks. 1993. 3 bands. The place was packed. The owner was so happy he hired us for more paying shows.
Hey Mike - fellow tourer here but based in the UK. Also ran labels, promoted, TM, etc..Im really glad you did a fair treatment but tbh she didn't do 'everything right'. I'd prefer to say she did 'a decent job given her costs, but with a broken model as a starting point'. What i mean by that is taking that level of risk - hiring eight venues outright - for a first tour is totally mad. If she'd asked me or anyone i know that plan we could have steered her right because promoters and agents exist for a reason! Also flying expensive sidemen in... Nope. I do hope she gets back out there, learns, and shares those lessons. And there are loads of organisations who can help her - the FAC, MU, MMF etc
I 100% agree. I think what I was trying to get at is she was trying to not skimp on her show, and play with a full band and bring the best show she could. I definitely should have phrased that differently hah.
You made an awesome point, social media fans do not necessarily equate to fans that will come and watch you in person.
I agree. I like her channel to hear her POV and get info but I don’t like her kind of music 🤷
I learned this on a much smaller scale. When I was between bands, I noticed a lot of my friends that were in bands were complaining about poor attendance. Apparently all they did was make a Facebook event and promote it online and that's it. When I joined a band, I kind of took over booking for a few shows a year, and I would print out posters and flyers, take them to the venue and put them up all over the place about a month before the show. I would also put them up at local music stores and area businesses that would let me put them up. The important thing was having QR codes with the band page, as well as the event page so people can check it out instantly on their phones. All of our shows were packed when I did that. The old school tactics still work.
Mary Spender understandably has gotten carried away with TH-cam popularity and learned that success on social media does not translate to success in live concerts. The reality is she has the option to grab a guitar and tour the UK doing solo acoustic shows and that is not easy. She says she is in her 30’s now so pop music is the domain of the young and so continuing to sink more money into tours may put her in a financial hole unless she does solo acoustic tours. Mary should work the TH-cam angle and focus on that as a goal. Roll with the changes as REO sang.
For real, I like watching Mary on yt for a few years now but I've never listened to any of her songs
@@tod3msn If she actually wanted to become an artist she should start by focus on recording songs that attract an bigger audience. You need "hits" if you want to make en living on you original music. Most people buy tickets to hear songs they know and enjoy. Marys viral "hit" is the cover with Leo from Frog Leap. He can as an youtuber act gather an solid live audience, highly because he focus on performing fun versions of known hits.
I was actually surprised that she headlined her own tour right off the bat …traditionally you collab with veteran touring bands or at least another up and coming act…
This is the way to do it. When you are starting out, nobody knows your music, so why would they fork out money to see you? Opening for bands that already have a following is an incredible opportunity and is the way to grow your audience, but you have to bring it. You may not want to upstage the headliner, but you can definitely make an impression where people want to find out more about you and discover your music.
Not necessarily. We have a small venue in town that features folks coming into town, sometimes solo acts and sometimes small bands, doing acoustic shows multiple nights a week. You've never heard of any of them outside of the rare act. Amy Ray of the Indigo Girls brought her solo band there. And, Tanita Tikaram performed there last year. If you know both these ladies - good for you. Lots of local folks play there. I think the venue fits 100 people maybe 150. There's not a lot of money here, so if you're splitting that with an opening act after splitting it with your 3 bandmates ... $30 a ticket x 100, divided by 2 bands, plus the venue cost .... Never seen anyone come to this venue with an opening act.
While don't forget the house party circuit. Though, I don't know if its as big post-Covid.
her music is mediocre, she makes up for it with hype
@@hinduismwithpremananddasbhagat that is okay-ish for that specific venue in your town. Now when we are talking about a whole tour, you should get another band with a bigger draw. Honestly, if she has a big online following, she could have gotten an opening spot with an established band and prob made more money...
She's a mediocre player with a big ego who should've planned better & opened for a better act lol
Read an interview with Creed's manager years ago when they were unknown.
He picked the 10 closest cities to their hometown in Florida.
They played the same 10 cities every 3 months for a whole year for a total of 4 shows per city that year.
First round, they had about 10 people per show.
Second round about 100.
Third round about 500.
Fourth round were selling out 2,000 seat venues.
The time off in-between the mini-tours was spent promoting the next round.
Then they got signed and so on.
almost sounds like a fairytale ... and they lived happily ever after
@@mattmobile7882it sounds like the opposite of a fart tale
A very good manager. I've known this procedure for 30 years: you must establish dominance in your hometown first, then expand to the nearest cities, and so on. What she did was completely unprofessional.
There’s a possibility that the music scene/business has changed since the days when Creed was unknown. Do you really think that would work these days for them again?
@@alexotaola It would work even faster
I want to expand on some of the comments here about online presence and IRL draw being two different things (I agree 100%). I'm a big fan of Mary's TH-cam channel and deeply appreciate her openness about so many music and music-related topics. BUT....while she is a definitely skilled musician, I don't much care for the music she creates and would likely pass on an opportunity to see her play live. I have no idea what percent of her fan base might feel the same way, but when I watched her postmortem video and learned that she sold ~60% of available tickets, I wondered if she overestimated the % of her channel fans that would be likely to come to her shows. I can imagine that is really difficult to suss out until you've actually taken the leap and done it. So good on you, Mary, and thanks for sharing. And thanks, Mike, for your perspectives as well.
I'm with you all the way. As far as looking at this with onstage and on video, at least she's not a looper up onstage all by herself. I've done a lot of gigs where the band supported a front-man who couldn't keep it going himself, so it's nice she had a back-up band to fall back on.
That's a great point, and I'm in the same boat. I love a lot of Mary's content on YT, but I don't also happen to be a fan of the music genre she's into. And she's far from the exception in that regard. Hell, I absolutely hate jazz, and yet I absolutely love Adam Neely's videos! I care very little for electronic music but I'm a big fan of Benn Jordan and Venus Theory for their perspectives and discussions about music making. Conversely, most artists and bands whose music I love listening to don't have much of an online presence, and those who do rarely have much to offer that I don't already get from their records. These are two very different sets of skills and types of content, and if someone happens to be right up my alley in both, it would be the exception rather than the rule.
Regardless, I feel for Mary's difficult touring experience, and I hope things will get better for her in that department. I appreciate her sharing it all with us online, and Mike's commentary on her video was an interesting piece as well (I'm not familiar with either this channel or his band, this video was suggested to me by the algorithm while I was watching Mary's, by the way!). Best to all.
That's the point. For the most part, the only musicians who should expect that their on-line followers will show up at their live shows are those whose channels are specifically about them performing music.
@@legendmaker694 you and I clearly have similar YT tastes and music prefs. I too am a huge fan of Benn and Venus Theory (add Jameson Nathan Jones to that list) YT content but not necessarily their music.
I think many people agree that Mary Spender is first of all an excellent presenter, host and reporter. Me too, I watch her channel more for the presentation and the insights than for her music. As a musician she is good but in my view not excellent and the style of her music is probably not at the peak of popularity. I think she could earn a very decent salary as a presenter or host for radio tv or any company. Although not impossible, earning a reasonable salary with her music seems just a bit more difficult and I wonder a bit whether she recognizes that herself.
On my last touring gig,I spent a few years before Covid hit touring as the bassist with the Motown group The Miracles. Played at top venues, always sold out, went first class and we as the musicians got paid well compared to most. But we were very well backed and had a professional management team and of course the legendary franchise backed by Claudette Robinson herself who owns the rights and often appeared with the group. I don’t know how these online artists think they can tour without substantial backing. Labels would provide tour support to promote a new album and sell merchandise but those days are done. Only the biggest artists can tour and make any real money these days. TH-cam popularity doesn’t equate to butts in the seats. At 65 now I’m done with touring. Even at its best it’s a grind. What’s sad is that young musicians will never get to have the session experiences we all had back in the 70s and 80s in LA. That time was magic!
No doubt! I feel blessed just growing up in Detroit in the 60's & 70's
From the concerts to the bars & lounges, the music scene was heavenly!
Berry Gordy was in the news daily ...........
I need a wayback machine!
Now it's only DJs playing recorded music and presenting fireworks.
Who wants to deal with a Label ?? See @toddkeller comment. It helps to have good songs. 🤣 Most people want to party and have a good time. Sex sells also😂.A gimmick maybe ?
Great musicianship ?You really have to have something to make people leave the comfort of their couch.
Loses 15K on a eight date tour and she sells a course on how to do it... Only in the matrix
Hahaha
LOL
that’s utube for you. failures who have the algorithm pretending they are chosen.
@@TheNewYorT Sorry, but I did watch. Please clear up any and every way which my first statement is incorrect. Thanks. 👍
This is the difference between being popular on social media vs being popular on stage. Social media rewards quantity over quality whereas musical performances reward the opposite.
Thats also the difference between beeing professional and amateurisch.
I know a musician who is huge on youtube for her instructional videos. Yet, constantly is asking why folks don't show up at her band gigs, or why they get second stage when she has a monetized youtube channel. She doesn't realize that online vs on stage are different, and instructional videos doesn't mean folks are listening to her band.
this is actually what it’s all about, online presenters sometimes live in a bubble of their own creation, it’s not always parents. they actually think they are celebrities because people view their content in video form…
This video contains more useful info than a lot of websites and articles out there regarding touring. Great stuff Mike!
She does not have broad musical appeal. This translates into low ticket sales even in small venues.Then at the end of her video, she promotes a course in how to be a successful musician. Ironic?
That's exactly it. She's nice enough as a TH-camr. Not that I really watch much of her but bland acoustic singer songwriter music, she really should know better. It's been done and it's been done a lot better.
I think she confused her youtube profile with her Spotify profile.
@@TJ-vt6rt Yeah I like her as a TH-camr for the most part, although I rarely watch her anymore. That said I really don't care for her musical content. No hate, just not interesting to me and sometimes even a bit annoying.
Ha, it was a course on how to tour, that is even worse, ha.
her music is mediocre, delusional musicians like to listen to her for false hope
I watched her sing Romeo and Juliet with some guy playing guitar, the guitar player was good but her vocal was absolutely terrible,
I went to one of her gigs, I live locally and have a music website and socials and I write for a Music Mag....I follow Mary on most platforms yet I didnt get hardly any promo pop ups on my feeds...now...I tried to contact Mary many times ahead of the gig to offer to help promo it locally, I could have brought along at least another 15-20 people, but....she didnt respond....and from what I can see....she never responds to anything posted on her socials, she’s busy I get that....but clearly she could have used the help....so...
Agree....I sense it's all a bit contrived
Was it really just a way of generating content and traffic?
Hiring 8 venues out completely for her first ever tour (and apparently not even checking the tech spec?!?) instead of using local promoters or agents tells me she has literally no-one with any experience steering her. Massive respect for doing it but she's also charging punters for a course and that's a red line to me, whiffs of pyramid scheme. Great yt content tho.
@@JoeParkerAndThePower Yeah I think shes lost in the system TBH, YouTUbe is her vehicle for funding her music, one cant survive without the other now...a rock road.
I used to occasionally watch her, but the few YTers I've seen have footage of playing in a live venue, frankly, they don't have stage presence.
It’s all about “content” these days. Good tour, bad tour, or horrible tour - they are just situations to create videos to feed the content machine.
Agreed but she comes across as one of those old Radio 1 DJs that gets moved to Radio 2 and I’m listening thinking, yeah you should have retired years ago.
I just re-listened to her music, tgen read her lyrics. To be polite: she is way better as a youtuber, than as a songwriter, singer, and guitarist.
Exactly, her music sounds very amateur at best.
Yeah, to your point I think Uncle Larry and Guthrie trapp made the money back on their record three times over. But they are ace players
Yes I have to agree… she does a great job as a presenter, and her TH-cam guitar stuff is nice…. Yet in the live clips I’ve seen of her she’s hardly showcasing her guitar playing at all, and the songs are (IMHO) not strong enough.
Yeah.. I just think she doesn't have the "it" factor. I watched a bunch of her covers, and none of them connected. Her voice just isn't that interesting/charismatic. OTOH, I can listen to Haley Reinhart cover anything at PMJ, and get goosebumps. I'd go out of my way to see Haley, but not Mary.
she's pretty but incredibly annoying
The fact that she sold a course at the end of the video was such a curveball.
😂
I didn't finish her video (I like her stuff but find them often a bit ponderous so generally only get 50-75% into her videos before quitting) so I didn't even know that! Ugh.
Her whole video came off as feebly disguised hater/ragebait ala Beato
@@berniebro420 She is part of that community, liked it better when she tried to be Adam Neely rather than Rick Beato. So much 'vague-posting' clickbait stuff now. False melodrama - some of the content is decent, but seldom worth the time.
Yeah - a course on how to tour?! I mean, full marks for self-confidence there...
Mary has a great personality for the type of videos that she does, but I'm sorry to say her own music just doesn't have a big enough 'hook'. I listened to her recent album after this tour news came out to try and see why her tour went bust and I couldn't find one song on the album that grabbed my attention. Most of the songs felt like background music. I think before she does any touring again she needs to work on her song writing a lot more, or at least work with a producer who can help elevate her work to the next level. She's clearly a talented musician, but the type of easy listening music that she currently writes isn't structured or produced well enough to sell tickets on mass. That's the lesson she needs to learn first.
a couple of her songs have *some* potential - but it never builds! it's a classic mistake you see and hear at so many open-mics . . there's a 'good bit', but then it's gone and in rolls a load of sludge
@@GaZonk100 Open mic is actually a pretty good description for her style. The problem with those type of performers is they generally don't stand out enough. For every girl discovered singing at the local coffee shop like Jewel, there's a hundred girls who's songs just becomes background music.
This is awesome. Thanks for the inside look! Merry Christmas!
. etc 1st time evr saw his vid n
The drama also reminds somewhat of Amanda Palmer in 2012, whose community spent a million on her kickstarter, but then she requested the same community to come play for/with her without any kind of compensation. It caused quite a stir, there's an article on it: "Will (Not) Play For Hugs And Beer"
Got to respect Mary Spender that she just paid the band, no crowdsourcing/ "exposure" bs!
Well, with all due respect, when I watch her videos, one thing I notice-- she seems to live in a very nice apartment. She has loads of very expensive guitars. I see a Two Rock Amp in the background. The bottom line? Sure, she lost a lot of money on tour. But she obviously HAS a lot of money- and makes a lot of money from other sources. She went on tour- and lost money- because she could afford to. I find she is being a little shady, a little covert, about how she makes her money. Because she is clearly not struggling or losing money big picture. No struggling artist has a two Rock amp and a $5000 signature guitar. She made her “ I lost $15000 on my tour” video for one main reason- to elicit both sympathy and more support for her channel.
If you dig a little deeper into her videos, she'll talk about how she makes her money and the various roles that she has to take on in order to make things work. I do think that the history of her rise is possibly a little shady. How did she afford to move abroad/spend so much time outside of the UK at such a young age? etc, but in general I think she's pretty open about the way she makes money and that she's been lucky to be endorsed and get freebies from time to time.
@@gregmacdonald666 Honestly, I don’t think she’s being particularly open at all about how she makes money. And don’t get me wrong- she is without doubt under no obligation whatsoever to divulge her personal information regarding income. But I also feel by with holding said information, she is grifting patrons by every few months playing the “woe is me” suffering musician card, carefully creating a narrative where she- and others- are the victim of a cruel and unfair music industry, (spotify pay etc).
Part grifter no doubt
Her whole smug aura just screams "I've been handed everything and will never admit it"
There is more to this "broad" than meets the eye . Her going on tour , is like opening a fruit stand with only 3 rotten bananas to sell !!!!!!!!!!
Jumped straight into touring like she's big time when she's simply just 'youtube famous'... completely skipped years of building a live following. Ya gotta build it first. Ffs.
Great breakdown, very informative without belittling her in any way. Mary's fans will love the respect you show her and her efforts. I SUB'd and then went to look at The Rumjacks. I was laughing when I realized I had just watched your "viral video" 2 days ago! (SUB'd there also). Then I watched your "An Irish Goodbye on St. Valentines Day" and was even more impressed. Hope to attend one of your shows someday!
Thank you so much!!
Bottom line is you have to have hit songs to make the bucks.
And Mary is more famous for talking about music than for her music.
Wrong. For touring you need solid local engaged audiences. Hits help but only while they're on the air
@ no you’re wrong. The Music Industry probably isn’t something you’ve had much experience in.
What hit songs does “The Grateful Dead” have?
"Already on her staff for her YT business" says it all really. Mary Spender is a youtube brand. Mary comes from money, the way to look at it is the tour was free, it paid for itself. She can well afford the investment of 12k post tour PR campaign that your channel and others are buying into to promote her female orientated channel which is her main source of income and a business which she employs people, the music and tour is a paid hobby.
a business that loses money is still a business - various startups always come with a practical guarantee of losing money for a certain period of time before they can even begin to turn a profit - and at least there can be some tax benefits for operating a losing business - though not sure how that works in the UK ..
@@billyz5088 Nah she's primarily a TH-camr, the losses from this little tour are offset by her YT income, and making a video about the 'money losing tour' is a genius business
idea. No risk or loss at all.
@@geomusicmove exactly, a 12K expense to generate increased viewership and (viral) engagement.
@@mipmipmipmipmip-v5x Yeah people would spend a lot more for this kind of exposure. Thouds of views, tags and consequently sponsorships are worth a lot more than 12 grand, granting it's all true anyhow.
Mary does not “come from money”. You are getting confused by her accent.
The reality is Mary is not a popular musician. Very few musicians are popular enough to carry a tour. Do we need to argue with reality that unknown musicians should not be on tour? If she wants to tour she needs to take a guitar and do solo acoustic shows. Hotels are expensive. I traveled and was taken back by the “holds” that pop up so a hotel will “hold” a percentage in case of damages which does not seem fair. Anyway, I learned to ask about “holds” in the future.
She never even thought about teaming Up with an Support act..even big big big Bands rarely go Out on Tour alone..
I hate it with a PASSION!! People are not made of money and when 'THEY' put some 'HOLD' on your card, it limits you and what you can do while you are where you are. However, you are right, sometimes and depending the hotel, they will bypass those 'HOLDS'. - J.D. WATKINS
I'm pretty sure Mary has done the solo guitar thing so she should have had some idea on the sort of numbers she could expect.
Rare that I find someone talking to a camera as genuine and insightful as this, keep it up!
@@berniebro420 honestly a huge compliment, so thank you!
I think the real takeaway here is that she is not popular enough to go on tour. She doesn't have a big enough draw even after planning for a year and promoting her shows. She should start where she lives using backing tracks and building a following before going all over the UK. She should not be paying her manager unless he is booking gigs and doing all the work that it sounds like she did. And after losing $12,000 she is the last person who should give advice on how to go on tour.
Wasn't she a local performer already?!
Yeah the sales pitch for a course at the end was something else altogether
@@LegsON that's what she use to do before the YT channel showed potential to gain popularity.
The "manager" is her brother which she already have employed to help running her medias. She mentioned in an earlier video she has 2 fulltime employees and a part-time for the bookkeeping. She basically doing so well as an TH-camr she can afford these kind of losses. I guess the album and the tour was highly an vanity project. She originally wanted to become an known artist, but ended as an succesful youtuber.
I have known players from platinum selling bands (i.e., net worth in the several millions with connections to the best promoters, agents, managers) go out on their own and tour on an album with radio and MTV play (back when those were things) and come out in the hole 5-figures on the first tour. Touring as a headliner is expensive.
Still the good songs are soooo important!! Being famous in TH-cam is not the same as having hit songs and killing it on the road!!
The whole tour was just for ego. I mean she's known on TH-cam but not had hits.. The loss makes sense.
i can't stand the woman
I think this is misleading. She's known within a very small circle on TH-cam. There's a group of content creators that includes Rob Scallon, Beato etc, usually other guitarists etc. Within the amateur guitarist community she might be "known" but beyond that, 750k subscribers aint that much.
Miss Spender always looks sad or mad ... And her songs and vocals and playing are simply competent. The spark is simply missing.
having that 'spark' - or energy in a band ( or as a singer-songwriter ) - is a must in order to draw people out to shows. Seems like a band format - 3 to 5 people - who play together long-term - ( as opposed to hiring a backing band ) - would seem more conducive to having that energy that both band & audience thrive on - otherwise it's just on one person to generate that - with a backing band that is just sort of 'going thru the motions' ..
Bingo!
David Brent : life on the road
This
Like glamping isn't really camping. This was more "glouring" than touring.
I discovered Mary Spender when she recorded the cover of Sultan of Swing with Leo Moracchioli. I subscribed to her channel because I thought she might do more things like this. I unsubscribed maybe 6 months later although I keep watching some videos of hers from time to time, just to confirm that I really don’t like her music. She is a skilled guitarist and a decent singer, but as it has been said many times in this comments thread, her music is really boring to me, and I wouldn’t go to a live show to see her playing and singing. I think it is part of what happened to her, many people see her videos for other reasons than her music, but when comes the time to play in front of an audience, only the music you play matters.
Many other TH-camrs are trying the real world touring experience, and either they play as a backing artist, or they team up to gather more people (e.g. Bernth, Ola and Berthoud, and those guys do have experience playing live and they are also virtuosos, and some people will go to see them for this reason).
Well, not meaning to be unkind, but I just watched a video of her live performance, "One Kept Secret - Bristol 25.09.2024." I can't say it inspired me to look for future live performances.
its all about the songs...if you have a hit song(s), or some kind of music where people could dance, and/or get connected in emotional way, then you will have no problem with filling gigs. But with no such songs, be realistic...only few people will come. Specially since younger generations are not that much into music, and concerts, and "middle-aged" people have daytime jobs, families..they can't go to concert on Tuesday night in 22:00, which starts at 23:00 till 1:00 AM. Generally..have a day job, and do music for yourself, and if you get lucky with songs.. transfer to full time musician.
Hey Mike! I applaud YOUR video. First time I am catching you. I play professionally..and have been for a loong time. I kinda sat out the death of recorded music period (2000-2010) and just recorded during that time (Solo material, music for TV, Movies etc). I am now more agressively playing live..and I TOTALLY agree there is IRL and then social media. I substantially discount social media stars..as they can't fill rooms and often haven't developed the LIVE skills so needed to play gigs and stay booked. Hats off, though....to do social media is a skill, as well. I think until the music/entertainment business reboots with proper remuneration for its content creators..touring will be just one prong of a multi-prong approach to gaining an audience.
And PS: Mary Spender is MOST HIGH in everyones respect. She tells of her sucesses and lesser moments with equal candor. There are few held with similar respect. I think her next tour will succeed in ways beyond her expectations.
You’re only selling 60% of tickets and only playing to 1,200 people in total across the tour…. You’re travelling with a full band of session musicians that you have to pay… and staying in hotels… Why would anyone be surprised that you would lose money?
She’s absolutely not touring the right way. The only way those gigs could’ve been been profitable is if she had played the gigs solo. No backing band. If she keeps touring in exactly the same way, as you suggest, she will lose even more money.
A lot of people watching free videos on their phone means nothing when it comes to how many will leave their home, travel to a gig and pay for a ticket to see you. This has been obvious for years.
Online presence doesn't mean anything. Remember 'Snakes on a Plane'? That's the lesson content creators need to understand. Online hype takes zero effort so it's actual value is zero.
Oh my god, what an amazing use of Snakes on a Plane hahaha
I mean my band fills venues but we’re having such a hard time building online hype haha.
I'm on TH-cam constantly and haven't seen her name in like a couple years
Elephant in the room... Got to write music people want to hear. How do you tell someone their music is not all that interesting or unique?
she is a somewhat "beautiful" girl, with (most likely) hundrets of thousands of fake subs and now she got an reality check. Having a quarter Million subs and only selling 1200 tickets in total is insane to me. Maybe she should team up with that Adam Neely Clown, his music is even worse..but maybe together they will cover the full authistic, i mean ACOUSTIC, spectrum..
a big elephant that entitlement and ego just will not see
@@MisterEko888not that you sound bitter at all Mr E 😅
Hey I saw you guys with DKM last year (year before?) in Asheville NC, and love you guys! Glad to see you have a youtube channel I can geek out over. Cheers from NC.
I made a feature-length documentary about DIY touring (Mary actually name dropped it once), one thing that nearly everyone in it pointed out was that you eat s**t on your first tour. The more you stay out there, the more you build up your audience and network, but don't expect to make anything the first one.
Sweet! I'll give it a watch.
@@MikeRivkees It's called Why Am I Doing This? (A Film About Touring)
I remember a couple friends of mine were going to a show of a guitar player who had a viral video with millions of views. I knew of it and tagged along. Was about 20-30 people in the small listening room venue which had a capacity of about 55. Also, my friends were woman and only wanted to go because the artist was good looking.
bro, that was an amazing road worthy analysis of what she did, i'm a geezer, 54, in 2023, crushed out 5 months in western canada, 5 provinces and 50 shows, booked it myself, all done with pick up bands and no merch, but in the prairies of canada we had a blast, packing 100 - 250 rooms, based on our name, horse funeral band, we always made money in the prairies of canada, despite long distance traveling, but i know how to tour, there's always a band house to crash in at a university and i always sleep in the tub, lol, no crabs or bedbugs, but we were always depressed coming back to british columbia because it is so expensive to tour here, gas ,food, and it's mountainous as fuck, so you burn through more fuel than the prairies, british columbia cost of living is also so brutal that the people can only afford one show a month and it's gotta be a banger, so new bands have to fight against that. it's a fucked up situation.
British Columbia: it's mountainous as fuck!
Ever been to Dog River??
@@bradrock7731 There's not a lot going on...
@@jamiebridson7871 The new Travel BC slogan! 😄
@@patrickcampion7966 Makes Austria look like Holland! Another possible slogan.
Todd Rundgren had interesting observation, about Meat Loaf. “If you’re willing to to go out there and shamelessly flog your product, every night and repeatedly hitting the same markets, you will invariably build an audience, if you have anything of interest.” I think that applies here.
She's a TH-camr first, musician second. She'd be far better concentrating on her TH-cam channel and just doing a couple of gigs a year.
TBH I dont think she know whats she wants to be....
Watched several of her videos but never heard a single song. I know her more as a "person" or a content creator, not a musician. She'd do better as a paid speaker with a Q&A after. Sell some signed books (if she had one), etc. What people want to get paid for, and what people want to pay your for, are usually two different things. I remember hearing a clip of Jimi Hendrex playing live; was about a year before his death. The crowd was giving him grief because they didn't want to hear his new material. Even the great one himself wasn't giving them what the people wanted.
Last week I was feeling sorry for myself due to slow growth of my own TH-cam channel. Then I ran across the one ran by Milana Vayntrub, she played "Lily" in the popular AT&T commercials. Her channel started about the same time as mine, but she only has a little over 200 subscribers. People liked her as the comedic "girl next door" but have no interest in hearing about her journey as a new mother.
Do what you need to do to pay the bills. Also do what you love, just don't expect any money to come along. If it does, you're a rare exception.
The best way to avoid this problem is to actually be worth paying to see.
The interesting thing is she has immediately put out a video course on how to tour as if she can be sure she learned anything, which is impossible to know until she implements the changes and has a successful tour.
Manchester is one of the major cities in teh UK, it was mad to not include it. Punters won't travel more than an hour or so for a gig of this size.
Even local scenes are seeing this. There’s bands with 100k streams and they can’t put 25 people in a room. Monthly listeners and fans are too different things. I’m glad the industry is starting to see that.
It's hard to fill a venue with bots. It's completely unrealistic to think a local band has 100k real streams. Those are not local band numbers
thanks mike i really enjoyed your take on mary,s experience . i too watched that video.. while i think she is a nice person maybe just doesnt have everything , i mean we all need people right!? i don,t think any one makes it on their own! we all have our own tastes and opinions on everything the irony of vloggs or home streaming is the artist is streaming from home to other people in their homes.. it's a whole shitty big bad world when you actually have to go outside in the elements in the real world lugging gear around, setting up, taking down ,driving,travelling, eating, sleeping controlling nerves, anger, frustrations, and even after that things can and will still go wrong with the goal of being liked you have to have the love for what your doing first and its a bonus if people like you. and turn up for support & the most important thing you need for that is TIME also i like to make my own choices to like or dislike everything there is in life i don,t need prompted or told nothing wrong with a nice pointer or nudge tho mind !!? i prefer not to say bad things about people trying to create or make something from nothing. better to make music than to not at all someone somewhere will like it and appreciate it.. hopefully, we live & learn as they say.. the people who can adapt & change will be the ones who will triumph to different degrees of succes , fame, or finance!! fun as well
Not a fan of Mary's, i got tired of her stuff and didn't watch her video but i enjoyed your video and your great advice. There are a few musicians I love who are big in certain areas or certain circles and are well known on YT but when they come to the small western Canadian city i live in, they play very small venues and most people I talk with have no idea who they are. Running a successful business is hard, doing it in an artistic field is even harder. I think it's spot on that there's a huge difference between internet musicians and IRL musicians and it's just the reality that no matter how many followers you have online, they don't carry over and you really have to start over and build up your IRL audience.
Back in the 80s in LA there were tons of small local clubs that held just a couple of hundred people and would be filled most nights, even weeknights. They all pretty much vanished by early 2000s and have never really been replaced. People just don't go out anymore especially to see live bands. I now live in the Philippines and we have the same issue of no one wanting to see live music.
Still, it is very hard to get tickets for a lot of shows, before they sell out.
@@herbtube7824 Even that is changing somewhat. 2024 was the year of the disappearing festival; at least a couple dozen USA events went away within weeks of opening when tickets didn't sell enough to cover the new increased costs of running a festival. Tay-Tay will sell out no matter what and she's got some professional, international company that put butts in seats. But further down the live show food chain and things are far less certain. For artists that are self-promoting their shows, like Mary, the risks are huge and the rewards a serious gamble.
@@herbtube7824- it’s now an extreme situation for live music. Unlimited demand for Eagles, Springsteen, Oasis in the arena at £250 a seat - yet no slates for £2.50 in the club down the road.
Yeah, I understand that it would seem incongruent with expectations that someone with millions of TH-cam views would only sell fewer than 2,000 tickets, but those TH-cam views are free and don't require the viewer to extricate their behinds from their comfy chair. Furthermore, many people are grappling with inflation and uncertainty.
this guy has stated why the tour failed. TH-cam does not equate live ticket sales. Thanks for reminding people of this.
I like Mary so I don't mean this as an insult... but she's TH-cam famous for talking, not for her songs. Kind of like how Joe Rogan is the biggest podcaster on the planet but he's not performing his comedy in stadiums. He plays small theaters. He's a podcaster who also does comedy. Bill Burr is a comedian who also does a podcast.
That said, I DO like her playing and I think her videos are great.
I love Mary but when you only have 5,195 monthly spotify listeners, it is insane to tour at all. She is not known for her music, she is know for her podcast. IN THE LEAST she should have had a half speaking / playing tour. She could have had the audience asking questions and meet and greets for an extra payment. She should have just hired two musicians. This would have been much more successful.
How much will she make from her "How Much Money I Lost On Tour" video? That's part of the tour income.
And the course she is selling on what she learned touring.
Exactly. She’d gonna get lots of content out of that tour. 10 shows is nothing, though. That only 10 more shows than I’ve ever played.
Yeah she made a video on every show so she got lots of content for her channel.
@@teadrinker7098which is... Mad
Sounds like the whole tour was really an idea for videos, not an actual tour.
Being a backup band for an established artist might have been a safer bet. TH-cam famous isn’t the same
Economically, based on tickets sold vs expenses, she treated it as a vanity tour. If someone is independently wealthy, and wants to do it like that, that's great. It sure beats sleeping in a van, and touring with a less flattering rhythm section, with no rider, no per diem, no support staff, no etc. So, her touring lifestyle didn't quite match the venue size and fanbase. Probably in a couple of years, as the crowd size builds, then the tour can support that level of expenditure. If she can afford to spend above and beyond, while building a live fanbase, then that's great. If I could afford a hotel, I would take that every single night.
I’d say her online presence is her draw more than her music. I like her videos but am not keen to her music. I probably would not go see her but will watch every video she makes. They represent two different sides to her.
You nailed it with Online/IRL, subscribing to artists on youtube is free, buying tickets, hotels, travel, food, merch etc is expensive.
I also feel there was logistical failures, a lot of the planning with venues, tickets etc was handled by herself, tour manager must've thought it was the easiest time ever.
Micro managing your own band and playing is incredibly time consuming and the minute you take your foot off the gas you lose money.
Having a full band for a solo artist, with hotels and media team, its not wonder you are losing money.
At the end of her video she says she would go solo, merge the tour manager/merch role and increase the ticket price.
The one thing I didn't like was her blaming turnouts in specific cities.
Halestorm once played glasgow garage G2 to 50 people, 10 years later they sold out 12,000 hydro.
Losses are part of the game, its why not everyone is successful, they cant persevere over those losses.
If your popularity is based on people watching you at home from their bed or couch for free this might not translate to people traveling 20 miles and paying to see you live.
lol most people go see bands which they to listen from home in their bed or couch for free so this point is silly.
Come on, she acted like she was the first person on Earth to ever go on tour and had to "learn lessons" along the way. If she had read even one book about touring, she wouldn’t have made any of the mistakes she did. Pure hubris.
she got that alright
Respect for people giving it a go on tour. Touring is hard to make a living from. As many people have said in the comments - people will go to see good live music - and to build that up takes time playing gigs, not making youtube videos or producing online course. But she had the balls to give it a good go. Most people are too scared to try (or too skint)
Spender is a fine example of an online act. No real zip or charisma to her as an entertainer
And now she wants me to buy a course that will teach me how to properly do a tour. A new definition. Chutzpah!
And people will, which is crazy.
Perhaps she has too small an audience interested in her music to support any sort of tour.
She's nothing special musically. Her voice is OK and her songs are mediocre! She has NO star power or charisma!
I remember when telling a musician not to give up the day job was an insult. Nowadays it just seems like common sense.
It’s not even about online presence. Mary’s TH-cam is more educational than musical. She has about 5k monthly followers on Spotify.
Those are two different things.
The video was good until she mentioned she was selling a course on how to tour successfully 😅 I usually like her channel but it seems like people with big channels think they are above everyone.
Yes, my immediate thought when I got to that part of the video was, "But how do I KNOW that the 'course' will give me the right knowledge?? You haven't stress-tested your new approach."
I like Mary and watch her videos; but, she does not have a big enough musical audience.
Her music is bloody horrible. She isn't a talented songwriter. Just because someone persists, doesn't mean they will succeed as a musician.
She is delusional. Her songs have no hooks.
Why don`t you just say that you don`t like her music instead of being so negative? Maybe it`s just not for you, but apparently there are people who like what she does. No need for hate, man...
agree - and more horrible due to how poorly-arranged and structured the stuff is . .it misses the mark EVERY TIME
Wow say what you really think..
@@janinee6733 apparently not...which is the whole reason for this discussion...she has a big yt following but hardly anyone wanted to fork out to see her perform live
Mary is a good TH-camr but sadly doesn't have a lot of musical talent though she is a fine guitarist.. She would never have gained a record deal in the legacy music business. Songs are weak as are her vocals. Had her material and performances been top notch then she would have sold out all venues.
I love Mary's youtube, she's a very knowledgable person, makes great guitar related content and is open, insightful, honest, upfront and vulnerable.
All of which makes her channel great and it's why I've been subscribed for years.
On a personal level, I just don't connect with her music.
I'd see her if she was a support act, but I wouldn't pay £20-£30 solely to watch her.
$5k a show for a small indie artist trying to establish a market is nuts. 3 staff and not a FOH mixer ! Consolidate roles. Tour manager and FOH can be 1 person. Also you are right in that touring as support with an established act that aligns with your target audience, is the best way to get yourself in front of as many people as possible, for minimal cost. Basically Mary tried to tour at a level above where she is actually at. Champaigne taste - beer pocket. Also trying to sell a touring course on the back of this is def not a wise move. She has had a costly lesson in how online followers doesn't necessarily translate to bums on seats, so to speak. Hope she gets it right next time.
How about just not touring?
Thanks for this post. It tagged on to Mary's your video or I would not have see. It is a great support and helpful post. While I have no intention of touring (way too old and unskilled for that). It was informative. Thanks again.
It is interesting that she’s put together a course on it, yet isn’t really successful at it yet. …and I’m sure she has a lot more going for her than my band would.
As others have said, having all those TH-cam views doesn't necessarily translate into that many people actually being bothered to go out and see you play live.
why not?
@@MisterEko888Why would it ?
Her video was a good breakdown of the reality of touring. And probably a lot of lessons learned, which she was kind enough to explain to her audience. And she got a lot of advice in the comments from old hands. If you look at the losses from touring that some huge bands have taken, 12K is a drop in the bucket. If she enjoyed it, well, it was basically a very expensive holiday.
Come on, she acted like she was the first person on Earth to ever go on tour and had to "learn lessons" along the way. If she had read even one book about touring, she wouldn’t have made any of the mistakes she did. Pure hubris.
Great video, absolutely spot on!!
She talked about hiring the venues, and the cost involved.
We don’t go on tour until we get the venues to hire us, if she has almost a million TH-cam subs she should be able to sell her show to presenters….
Excellent point, and the first thing that lept out at me when I watched the video. If a year was spent planning the tour surely liaising with venues could have avoided this cost?
Just to clarify, “hiring” in the English/British dialect just means “renting”. Independent acts like ourselves often rent venues rather than go through promoters and we act as the promoter so we can get a much better payout in the end which is what Mary did. We’ve been more successful at it stateside and mainly by going out for often way less than 13 days at a time like she did so it’s a viable way to do it and lots of successful independent artists do it.
Leasing a venue is more popular than not. I know a band that has been leasing venues in states they haven't been to in a decade or never been to. They are trying to establish themselves so next year the venue invites them back and they don't have to lease.
may be she is not as good as she thinks she is!??
She's not a great singer, she has ZERO stage presence and her songs are mediocre!
you got that well right
I watched Mary Spender break down the cost of the tour and I think a lot of the issue is that over half of her TH-cam fanbase live in the U.S.. Opposite your situation she would probably do better here.
haven't watched yet but just on the highlights in the intro tit seemed like an awful lot of effort for two weeks in a van. She would almost certainly have done better if she was out longer and had less overhead. Also the right mix of Merch is critically important. I personally try to buy a CDs from the band at minimum but damn I'd love a T shirt or two but some designs are just too awful to consider.
buddy, if a quarter million subs (regardless the country) + a year of planning and promotion, is not enough to pull off a successful tour, then what is? Bottom Line: a lot of her subs might be fake and her music is at best average. There is nothing special or unique about her and also the arrogance, to go on "tour" without any support act etc. to draw more people to the shows is insane.. even big big big acts rarely or never go on tour "alone"
No, she really wouldn't do any better! People aren't taking a night off to hear self-absorbed TH-camr who thinks she deserves to be a star!
@@MisterEko888 A harsh but sadly accurate assessment of the situation!
TH-camrs on tour is like ”single”-artists back in the day. People only know one song. Not an album. You can have 10 million followers and nobody shows up cause you are NOT a musical act for real
Profession vs delusion.
All musicians are deluded, that's all that keeps most going.
Contrast blues player Samantha Fish vs. singer/songwriter Mary Spender. Samantha is in "show business". Mary is a beautiful British lady who also sings.
I played in a country band many years ago where we converted a single-decker bus with storage and 4 bunks. Unfortunately after several hundred gigs, and a lot of miles,it eventually broke down on the way to a well-paying USAAF Airbase gig, so we lost that fee, and the fee from the previous gig at the same base paying for recovery of bus ! ☹️ That's showbiz !
I dunno man I feel like most of her fans are people at or close to retirement age I doubt theyd have the energy to even go to her gigs. She makes the kinda videos my grandma puts on her ipad to feel like theres company.
It's a rare thing, a comment makes me laugh. Thank you.
Well where I live kids don't even go to gigs, you won't see anyone under 30 at some gigs. You young people are a bunch of wusses who sit at home being boring.
she's very zimmer-frame friendly
All of it can be summed up in that she VASTLY overestimated her popularity. Her channel is big but not that big, she's not known for her music but more as a lifestyle vlogger who plays music. I looked at her tour expenses and she threw money at things she didnt have to. The tour was doomed from the start, going as a headliner, not keeping things local, overpaying for a videographer, the drum skin, not having her own pa, overpaying for what are likely studio musicians instead of finding cheaper local talent.
This is where I get pedantic. Her music isnt exciting or novel. Its coffee shop rock, if I can even call it rock. If I got $20 to spend on a ticket, do I wanna go see something fun or something that puts me to sleep? I have to honest, she doesnt stand out. If it wasnt for her channel, I'd never know who she was or have any concern.
01:10. 13 shows…. 1200 tickets sold. And something she spent A FULL YEAR PLA$*$*$&$**#ning.
A full year planning (??). What!? 13 shows. A FULL YEAR planning?
I have a suggestion. Maybe, just maybe, someone who spends A FULL YEAR PLANNING a 13-shows tour, isn’t a good example of business acumen.
8 shows (in 13 nights) 😳
You were very graceful in your accurate assessment/critique. Thanks for bringing pertinent information to light!
I agree she is not popular enough to go on tour and have a profitable outcome.
Nor talented enough as a performer!
Props to any act out there touring, it's tough. I have money now and always buy merch to help bands out I like.
We are literally just raveling tshirt salesmen 😂
You’re the best.
"Props" for losing money on a vanity tour!? Sorry Bozo! That's not a badge of courage!
Good for you Bozo! Have a cookie then you clown!
Great video, Mike! Good to hear the facts from a touring pro.
Vanity project springs to mind
It's not, she needed to add more than 8 shows and sell them all out to stand a chance of making a profit.
Yeah I kinda think she over rated herself a little . A librarian with a guitar does not make Joni Mitchell.
@@crouchingtiger9108 It fucking IS a vanity project! She literally had ZERO demand for this and acted as if she was a big star! She is not! Vanity project start to finish and now she's crying because reality showed her she's not the big star!
@@vassmarc1 'Overrated' is just one word genius!
@@m.j.c.6969get a life they are spot on correct!!!
In Canada we have Home Routes. They book 12 show tours in people's homes. 2 weeks. 20 tickets at $20 max. Artist gets all $400 plus free room and meal. Host gets private show with exceptional indie artists. Artist pays transportation and per diems. Solo artists mostly. Come home with $3000-$4000. 2-3 times per year at most.
I thought it was a rule of thumb that you have to hit the same places three times before you start actually pulling in a crowd. Has been decades since I heard that though.
In general, I’ve never quite understood Mary Spender’s appeal. While she’s a fantastic speaker and I enjoy her videos-she often presents a compelling narrative-I find her music to be relatively average. It’s not something that would make me go out of my way to see her perform live. There’s nothing inherently wrong with her music; its just not good enough.
I can't believe she's selling a course on touring. That's outrageous.
Yeah man, your point is just brilliant. I bet many of us fellow musicians felt the same when watching her video. Headlining in your first tour is a bad idea if you don't know how many people will show up with a ticket. You better jump on some other band's backseat and let them walk you through their venues sharing expenses. At least that's how I did it back in the day, bands who had made it for decades were dying for taking new bands on board and they were even willing to share their equipment with us, which in many cases was way better than ours!! Also, being such a good solo performer as she is, she should consider the possibility of having different formats for her live material (solo, duo, three piece, more?). Many bands started touring as a duo to reduce costs and then went big once they could afford it. And definitely... hiring local musicians instead of flying them from around the world would help a whole lot and it would be very considerate with the local roster of struggling music makers.
Biggest stumbling block seemed to be ticket sales. She said she sold 63% of tickets. Had she sold 100%, and not made the VAT / pricing mistake she'd probably have broken even or even made some money. Which does emphasise the IRL / online presence dichotomy. The following she has I'd have thought she'd easily sell tickets, again depending on how that following breaks down for UK based followers. Was it poor venue choice? Bad nights to play the gigs? Who knows. I do know the gigs she did I could have got to I couldn't get time off work to go to, and couldn't make the travel time if i didnt.
Things are just very expensive here. Hotels, even budget ones arent cheap. Fuel for the van is ridiculous. The wages for the musicians wasn't a lot for 13 days plus rehearsal days. Barely over minimum wage really.
Ticket sales and venues seem to have been what caused the shortfall really.
Her biggest stumbling block was looking after the musicians she used too well, instead of paying them £100 per gig and telling them to find their own transport/accommodation/food. She's too nice for her own good.
@alfsmith4936 Nobody worth hiring would accept that deal.
@alfsmith4936 Eh, if that's the offer you're going to make, you might as well just do a solo tour. Offering less than minimum wage for an eight hour day plus expenses for the services of a professional is just insulting.
@alfsmith4936 That's insulting indeed.
What professional musician in their right mind would accept such a low ball offer?
£100 does not pay for their transport/accomodation/food on a tour.
So you're really asking professional musicians to come play with you for two weeks for free?
Hire kids just out of school. Call it an internship. Pay them $100 plus per diem. Have them use their social media to help promote the gig.
My first big gig we got paid in tickets. 100 tics we could sell at any price. I sold my 20 for about 80 bucks. 1993. 3 bands. The place was packed. The owner was so happy he hired us for more paying shows.
Hey Mike - fellow tourer here but based in the UK. Also ran labels, promoted, TM, etc..Im really glad you did a fair treatment but tbh she didn't do 'everything right'. I'd prefer to say she did 'a decent job given her costs, but with a broken model as a starting point'.
What i mean by that is taking that level of risk - hiring eight venues outright - for a first tour is totally mad. If she'd asked me or anyone i know that plan we could have steered her right because promoters and agents exist for a reason! Also flying expensive sidemen in... Nope.
I do hope she gets back out there, learns, and shares those lessons. And there are loads of organisations who can help her - the FAC, MU, MMF etc
I 100% agree. I think what I was trying to get at is she was trying to not skimp on her show, and play with a full band and bring the best show she could. I definitely should have phrased that differently hah.