Fascinating, thanks Adam. I knew the Hako boys were making great progress, but didn't realize how far they had come. Good point you made about the watchmaking trade being a closed shop for ever, but it's starting to open up up thanks to people like Josh, Chris/Clickspring, Rob, Stefan, and yourself - really appreciate you all sharing what you know, makes the world a better place. Thanks too to everyone who contributes value in the comments, you are all appreciated.
Wow, I work in a CNC shop in melbourne, the chamfer on that red part near the end, is so incredible. We keep getting asked to do work that our HAAS machines with lose ball joints just don't have it in them to do. I need to get me into a different shop haha.
Thank you so much for the detailed discussion. Fascinating. I have no intention of getting into any guilloche but as someone who enjoys CNC machining getting detailed discussion of some unusual alternative ways to run a machine really helps me think more about other ways to get a job done.
I watched the shaper micro machining video a while ago and was looking for it again a couple weeks ago, but couldn't remember anything about it other than that it was about engraving by dragging a tool along a flat surface without spinning it. I spent a ridiculous amount of time looking for it, so I'm glad I got recommended this video so I could connect the dots 😅
This episode talks about two of my interests at the same time. Having spent time hand engraving as a hobby, and machining as a hobby (both for custom knives), it's a very different set of requirements and methods to effectively do the same thing: Create chips. Much like grinding is a different way to approach making a chip. Approaching the same problem from completely different angles.
What a great channel. Adam you're doing the trade a kind deed by sharing your knowledge and enlightening us on so many techniques. I remember first seeing you on the Starrett tour. I wish you nothing but prosperity!!! Keep on keeping on! 🦾
I'm finding myself still listening to this with fascination despite not having done any CAD or machining in my life. I'm a web developer though, so the constraints that you discover and have to hack into the CAM software IS interesting. Also, never seen this type of code, but I can imagine parameter requirements for a tool path that has modifiers depending on the tool, material and combination. The scriber becomes a category like a mill or drill is. Maybe it needs to accept an RPM argument because it is a milking machine, which is then nullified by the Tool code. The C axis is interpreted from the direction of the straight/curve/bezier tool path just like X and Y. Some time ago I believe smarter everyday visited a CNC metal deformer. Their challenge is even bigger, because the whole material stretches based on where you are pushing and can then lead to over/under forming if the tool paths are not corrected at the CAD stage
I seen that twin point titanium forming vid, it was cool. Destin is great, the vid series at Kodak was amazing. That rotary forming is still new tech, it will get better for sure👍👌🇦🇺
Thats exactly 1:1 what i make most of the day at work. Hobbing operations on the C-Axis has a bit of a struggle. At first, our CAM Software is not able to simulate directional cutting tools, so you have to take a good guess what you are doing. And even the tools have a downside. The relief angle (backside) of the tool doesnt allow for sharp turns, otherwise the butt of the tool will squish nearby geometries. If you got crazy complex geometries, you have to account of all the cutting angles, and even find a way to dive in the tool, without pushing material around. Destroyed just today a diamond tool for 680$, controlled everything, checked it multiple times, still scrapped the tool (was 0,3mm) in a extremly narrow space. But at the other hand, diamonds stay sharp for a very long time, and the surface finish is unmatched.
Wow, had no idea people where doing stuff like this with these machines. I always thought of the spindle as a spinning mass rather than a tool controlled as precisely as the travel axis.
Love si much this topic, i am a french machinist for luxury, And i love those decorating technics. Thanks for sharing. If your spindle has not an encoder, you Can also genereate with the right CAM Guilloche with static spindle tool, only playing with C axis and XY (or Z) moves. Look out also what you Can Do with ultrasonic guilloché, to add colors playing with light wavelenghts regarding the couple amplitude /speed of thé Z piezo ultrasonic acuator wich is micron précise. Most important point iss thé ability to do it on complexe 3d shapes, to do things no one does using traditional tooling. Thanks again for your fantastique content, which stand for high quality manufacturing instead of replacing traditional manners, going further into making nicer and better designs for objetcts, which then you respect more and take Care longer. Verry hard and counter- intuitive mindset to transmit to productive side of Big companies
Aussie Aussie Aussie Oy Oy Oy. Love it mate. Was watching a rose engine on Clickspring channel? Maybe Chronova? It's was incredible, and this CNC version is cool as. What a score getting an Ex-Rollex KERN machine, lucky fella👍👌🇦🇺
Nice video. How are you tweaking the servo drive parameters? Can you do that from the machine control parameters or do you have to connect a computer to the servo drives?
Impressive and interesting video Adam. Fwiw and nothing to do with cnc, but for purely old school mechanical methods, there were geometric chucks built. Plant and Ibbetson were just two of the manufacturers. They can be built up in multiple layers and each one has multiple sets of different gear ratios that can be changed and combined to both slowly rotate the chuck and can drive a slide in either or both directions on each layer. This video shows a simple single layer chuck without a slide. th-cam.com/video/_ogsfwigpF4/w-d-xo.html Visualize something as complex as an enlarged drawing of the structure a snow flake consists of. These chucks can be set up so a rotary cutting head can cut even something like that in one continuous line as the chuck rotates. Basically a preset program installed into the chuck using only mechanical methods. Few have ever heard of those geometric chucks. Ornamental turning, rose engine lathes, straight and rotary guilloche as well as these chucks are all somewhat related as a craft.
I have heard that hand scraping was preferred for machine ways over a ground finish in some applications, just due to the improved lubrication (I assume some sort of mixed film hydrodynamic effect) - is this technique (i.e. cnc scraping) already used in high end machine tool applications ?
Many Japanese machine tool builders still use cast iron frames and hand scrap joining surfaces , matsuura and yasda come to mind . Most European companies seem to prefer an epoxy granite frame with ground/machined surfaces that guides are attached too. In the case of the Kerns mentioned in this video, they have a constant film of oil floating moving parts above the slide ways. So pockets caused by scraping wouldn’t benefit this machine, but would a more traditional box way machine. Not sure you can say one is better than other definitely, both approaches have made marvelous machine tools . It comes down to picking more labor or more expensive technology to create the machine
If anyone wants to see a practical example of a more traditional, but still machined, version of this, Clickspring did a couple of videos: th-cam.com/video/7yyrILbqgMQ/w-d-xo.html
I was wondering this as well. Seems like such a simple solution but I’m assuming there’s a good reason why it doesn’t work as well as spindle orientation.
To answer my own question, the fact that it would practically never rotate in the same axis as the spindle/tool might be impossible to overcome in some situations. You'd have to move X and Y to keep the tool in the same spot as the rotary axis moved, and depending on where your center of rotation was that might lower your surface speed out of acceptable range or something. Maybe if you stacked x and y on top of the rotary axis it would work better.
This only works for patterns that are concentric to the C axis. If you'd like to generate patterns on the side of a part by tilting the B axis, this would not work.
@@adamthemachinist I tried it with a UMC about 5 years ago. The Haas performs a full rotation to index past 0 for each M19 call. So it would definitely require a fair bit of work to make it all work in the Haas control.
Could people that don't have access to a discarded Rolex milling machine, build a stepper motor on the table? ThisOldTony retrofitted a complete CNC system into his manual milling machine, so maybe it is easier if you start from scratch 😅
You can do this fully manually using a rotary table and a notepad, but doing it in volume you need the Ferrari Rolex machine. Traditionally there is a special machine with pre made cams for each pattern, or even more traditionally, hammer and chisel.
Not long ago, TH-cam suggested your video where you machined 1911. I tried to find that video and you but seems you made it inaccessible. I like what you do and how you are doing it. And today you talked to Australia guy about guilloche. Don't you know we have a Plumier Foundation and many people here in the US? I do not see a point of making guilloche on CNC machines. Rigidity of manual machines is not a problem since the angle of your cutter is about 160 degrees, and the depth of cut is a few thousands. I was making guilloche on titanium tube mounted in a pen chuck on a straight line machine. The cutter had a tungsten carbide tip and cut titanium like a butter. The difference between rotery machined and linear cut is the shiny surface. You can't make it with a rotary tool or laser. That's why I hand engrave pieces. It looks always better than machined. Hand- made watch dials are unique. It takes years of training to cut such a dial. That's why it is expensive. While todays machines and technology allow cut something similar, it will take too long to set up a machine, plus the tip of the cutter should be sharpened frequently. Otherwise, the cuts will not shine. Thanks.
TH-cam is run by commie democrats. They forced him to remove the 1911 video. Even though everything he showed is perfectly legal... But it hurts their delicate feefees
This is free content. So they can share and do whatever they like. Most people are loving it. Have you produced any videos we can all watch to see how you've done it better?
Fascinating, thanks Adam. I knew the Hako boys were making great progress, but didn't realize how far they had come. Good point you made about the watchmaking trade being a closed shop for ever, but it's starting to open up up thanks to people like Josh, Chris/Clickspring, Rob, Stefan, and yourself - really appreciate you all sharing what you know, makes the world a better place. Thanks too to everyone who contributes value in the comments, you are all appreciated.
Two men with mountains of information.👏👏
And willing to share it.
Very interesting discussion, thanks!
Reminds me always of "Speed shaping" by Depo, just on a micro level.
Whos that?
really enjoyed watching that, what Josh is doing with that Kern is really amazing.
I've been learning a lot with this channel. Thank you.
Such good stuff, really love this process. Thanks for getting Josh on the channel to show and talk about it!
I wonder if the “pseudo chatter” marks in the copper mirrors were due to the over acceleration of your servos too
Wow, I work in a CNC shop in melbourne, the chamfer on that red part near the end, is so incredible. We keep getting asked to do work that our HAAS machines with lose ball joints just don't have it in them to do. I need to get me into a different shop haha.
Wow your audio quality is great today. Thanks.
Thank you , I’ve been getting lots of pointers lately
This is the best audio you have ever had Adam! Thank you so much for your content on both platforms!
Always something different, sometimes very different, and always interesting! Thanks for this one, Adam and Josh.
Adam…. Thanks for showcasing Josh and his talent.
Robert
🇦🇺
Good stuff guys!
ATB, Robin
Thank you so much for the detailed discussion. Fascinating. I have no intention of getting into any guilloche but as someone who enjoys CNC machining getting detailed discussion of some unusual alternative ways to run a machine really helps me think more about other ways to get a job done.
I knew all these things existed, but not in this amount of detail, that was great!
I dont even own a CNC yet and I can't not watch this.... I also cant stand how absurdly high quality this content is.....
Information I’ll never need but I’m glad to have 😂. Always grateful when you post.
I watched the shaper micro machining video a while ago and was looking for it again a couple weeks ago, but couldn't remember anything about it other than that it was about engraving by dragging a tool along a flat surface without spinning it. I spent a ridiculous amount of time looking for it, so I'm glad I got recommended this video so I could connect the dots 😅
Fascinating! Thanks for sharing it Adam!
This episode talks about two of my interests at the same time. Having spent time hand engraving as a hobby, and machining as a hobby (both for custom knives), it's a very different set of requirements and methods to effectively do the same thing: Create chips. Much like grinding is a different way to approach making a chip. Approaching the same problem from completely different angles.
Fascinating material! Thanks, gentlemen 👍
Awesome stuff. Thanks for sharing. Keep it up. Thank you
Wonderful stuff; thank you chaps!👍😊🍻
Ditto to the "amazing quality" content! Thanks!
What a fantastic subject, so cool. Videos like this have introduced me to skills I never knew I wanted to develop
Next level stuff you guys are doing! 🎉
What a great channel. Adam you're doing the trade a kind deed by sharing your knowledge and enlightening us on so many techniques.
I remember first seeing you on the Starrett tour. I wish you nothing but prosperity!!! Keep on keeping on! 🦾
Fascinating subject, (I learned a little about rose and inline engines from Clickspring), and Yay! New content to listen to in the podcast!
Thanks for sharing, very interesting since I have a friend with a rose engine lathe
Very interesting, always great out of the box thinking on this channel
I'm finding myself still listening to this with fascination despite not having done any CAD or machining in my life. I'm a web developer though, so the constraints that you discover and have to hack into the CAM software IS interesting. Also, never seen this type of code, but I can imagine parameter requirements for a tool path that has modifiers depending on the tool, material and combination. The scriber becomes a category like a mill or drill is. Maybe it needs to accept an RPM argument because it is a milking machine, which is then nullified by the Tool code. The C axis is interpreted from the direction of the straight/curve/bezier tool path just like X and Y.
Some time ago I believe smarter everyday visited a CNC metal deformer. Their challenge is even bigger, because the whole material stretches based on where you are pushing and can then lead to over/under forming if the tool paths are not corrected at the CAD stage
I seen that twin point titanium forming vid, it was cool. Destin is great, the vid series at Kodak was amazing. That rotary forming is still new tech, it will get better for sure👍👌🇦🇺
Sounds like a modern application of the shaper idea.
Thats exactly 1:1 what i make most of the day at work. Hobbing operations on the C-Axis has a bit of a struggle. At first, our CAM Software is not able to simulate directional cutting tools, so you have to take a good guess what you are doing. And even the tools have a downside. The relief angle (backside) of the tool doesnt allow for sharp turns, otherwise the butt of the tool will squish nearby geometries. If you got crazy complex geometries, you have to account of all the cutting angles, and even find a way to dive in the tool, without pushing material around.
Destroyed just today a diamond tool for 680$, controlled everything, checked it multiple times, still scrapped the tool (was 0,3mm) in a extremly narrow space.
But at the other hand, diamonds stay sharp for a very long time, and the surface finish is unmatched.
Amazing!!!
Wow, had no idea people where doing stuff like this with these machines. I always thought of the spindle as a spinning mass rather than a tool controlled as precisely as the travel axis.
Chris of Click Spring shows some beautiful workmanship using a Rose Engine, in fact I should say stunning work. 👍🏴
Fascinating! Thanks!
Its the newest iteration of the knurll. We as a species leveled up in that type of surface finishes.
I’ve wondered if this is possible, thanks for the podcast
Love si much this topic, i am a french machinist for luxury,
And i love those decorating technics.
Thanks for sharing.
If your spindle has not an encoder, you Can also genereate with the right CAM
Guilloche with static spindle tool, only playing with C axis and XY (or Z) moves.
Look out also what you Can Do with ultrasonic guilloché, to add colors playing with light wavelenghts regarding the couple amplitude /speed of thé Z piezo ultrasonic acuator wich is micron précise.
Most important point iss thé ability to do it on complexe 3d shapes, to do things no one does using traditional tooling.
Thanks again for your fantastique content, which stand for high quality manufacturing instead of replacing traditional manners, going further into making nicer and better designs for objetcts, which then you respect more and take Care longer.
Verry hard and counter- intuitive mindset to transmit to productive side of Big companies
Interesting use for a VMC :-)
Very cool!
Fascinating
That was dope.
Aussie Aussie Aussie Oy Oy Oy. Love it mate. Was watching a rose engine on Clickspring channel? Maybe Chronova? It's was incredible, and this CNC version is cool as. What a score getting an Ex-Rollex KERN machine, lucky fella👍👌🇦🇺
Nice video. How are you tweaking the servo drive parameters? Can you do that from the machine control parameters or do you have to connect a computer to the servo drives?
bussin
I translated this comment to English and in case anyone was wondering he said, "The bus"
Very curious what cam package was used to post the tool paths.
You can add in-house relapping by getting a gem facetting machine.
I need to see the micro Mori doing this 😊
Nice one fellows.
Very interesting, well above my pay grade.
Impressive and interesting video Adam.
Fwiw and nothing to do with cnc, but for purely old school mechanical methods, there were geometric chucks built. Plant and Ibbetson were just two of the manufacturers. They can be built up in multiple layers and each one has multiple sets of different gear ratios that can be changed and combined to both slowly rotate the chuck and can drive a slide in either or both directions on each layer. This video shows a simple single layer chuck without a slide. th-cam.com/video/_ogsfwigpF4/w-d-xo.html Visualize something as complex as an enlarged drawing of the structure a snow flake consists of. These chucks can be set up so a rotary cutting head can cut even something like that in one continuous line as the chuck rotates. Basically a preset program installed into the chuck using only mechanical methods. Few have ever heard of those geometric chucks. Ornamental turning, rose engine lathes, straight and rotary guilloche as well as these chucks are all somewhat related as a craft.
Im really interested in how the Erowa mounted cutter works. Does the cutter orientate itself based on the movement of the material like a plough?
@@Anatheme- his original setup on the kern pyramid had the tool held static in the erowa holder . Only his new kern micro hD had the tool rotation
@@adamthemachinist thank you for the reply. I apprecaite it.
what is he doing to program the toolpaths? By hand or does he use a CAM system?
I have heard that hand scraping was preferred for machine ways over a ground finish in some applications, just due to the improved lubrication (I assume some sort of mixed film hydrodynamic effect) - is this technique (i.e. cnc scraping) already used in high end machine tool applications ?
Many Japanese machine tool builders still use cast iron frames and hand scrap joining surfaces , matsuura and yasda come to mind . Most European companies seem to prefer an epoxy granite frame with ground/machined surfaces that guides are attached too. In the case of the Kerns mentioned in this video, they have a constant film of oil floating moving parts above the slide ways. So pockets caused by scraping wouldn’t benefit this machine, but would a more traditional box way machine. Not sure you can say one is better than other definitely, both approaches have made marvelous machine tools . It comes down to picking more labor or more expensive technology to create the machine
@@adamthemachinist -thanks for the reply, great content by the way, keep it up.
If anyone wants to see a practical example of a more traditional, but still machined, version of this, Clickspring did a couple of videos: th-cam.com/video/7yyrILbqgMQ/w-d-xo.html
Rather than dealing with controlling the spindle rotation like a rotary axis, could you not just use a 4th axis/rotary table to control that?
I was wondering this as well. Seems like such a simple solution but I’m assuming there’s a good reason why it doesn’t work as well as spindle orientation.
To answer my own question, the fact that it would practically never rotate in the same axis as the spindle/tool might be impossible to overcome in some situations. You'd have to move X and Y to keep the tool in the same spot as the rotary axis moved, and depending on where your center of rotation was that might lower your surface speed out of acceptable range or something. Maybe if you stacked x and y on top of the rotary axis it would work better.
This only works for patterns that are concentric to the C axis. If you'd like to generate patterns on the side of a part by tilting the B axis, this would not work.
Possible on haas mill ?!?
Not without getting into the control I suspect. The standard m19 spindle orientation won’t help you to much , too jerky
@@adamthemachinist I tried it with a UMC about 5 years ago. The Haas performs a full rotation to index past 0 for each M19 call. So it would definitely require a fair bit of work to make it all work in the Haas control.
Could people that don't have access to a discarded Rolex milling machine, build a stepper motor on the table? ThisOldTony retrofitted a complete CNC system into his manual milling machine, so maybe it is easier if you start from scratch 😅
You can do this fully manually using a rotary table and a notepad, but doing it in volume you need the Ferrari Rolex machine. Traditionally there is a special machine with pre made cams for each pattern, or even more traditionally, hammer and chisel.
Not long ago, TH-cam suggested your video where you machined 1911. I tried to find that video and you but seems you made it inaccessible. I like what you do and how you are doing it. And today you talked to Australia guy about guilloche. Don't you know we have a Plumier Foundation and many people here in the US? I do not see a point of making guilloche on CNC machines. Rigidity of manual machines is not a problem since the angle of your cutter is about 160 degrees, and the depth of cut is a few thousands. I was making guilloche on titanium tube mounted in a pen chuck on a straight line machine. The cutter had a tungsten carbide tip and cut titanium like a butter. The difference between rotery machined and linear cut is the shiny surface. You can't make it with a rotary tool or laser. That's why I hand engrave pieces. It looks always better than machined. Hand- made watch dials are unique. It takes years of training to cut such a dial. That's why it is expensive. While todays machines and technology allow cut something similar, it will take too long to set up a machine, plus the tip of the cutter should be sharpened frequently. Otherwise, the cuts will not shine. Thanks.
TH-cam is run by commie democrats. They forced him to remove the 1911 video. Even though everything he showed is perfectly legal... But it hurts their delicate feefees
A lot of fluff no real content of how it's done, no patterns shown, just talking about how they lap carbide and pcs and don't turn the spindle on
Did you even watch the video?
Just stop watching mate, this channel ain't for you👎No one wants to read your lame comment
This is free content. So they can share and do whatever they like. Most people are loving it. Have you produced any videos we can all watch to see how you've done it better?