J.R.R. Tolkien, confronted by having the Mass of Ages banned overnight and replaced by the New Mass (that claimed a return to origins) wrote in a letter, 'I do not understand the mania that the early Church is superior to the Church today because I don't understand why a sapling is superior to the full-grown tree; and in any case, if the sapling is superior to the full-grown tree, you don't get back the purity of the sapling by cutting down the tree. You simply kill the tree.' Any honest witness to the 'fruits' of the V2 Mass must acknowledge that it is, if not able to kill, wounds the 2000 year old holy and wise tree/Mystical Body of Christ. G.K. Chesterton wrote that, 'Tradition is the proxy of the dead and the enfranchisement of the unborn.' Through Holy Tradition the Holy Ghost saves each generation from being slaves of the zeitgeist that not only ignores but adopts the heretical and schismatic doctrines and practices that the 2000 year old tree has prudently and perfectly (the gates of hell shall not prevail) stood against. Kyrie eleison.
I attended NO Mass twice...I saw how the Eucharist was handled, and it was completely alien to even my Lutheran Church upbringing. I attended TLM Mass at an SSPX Chapel, and was blown away by the beauty and reverence of the service. To me, this isn't about who can out-Trad who - but about Liturgical correctness and proper reverence.
The Anglican liturgist, George Guiver, said WTTE, “Jesus said, ‘Do this in remembrance of me’ - but we also do it remembering those who have also remembered”. The Mass brings us into communion with the whole Church - past as well as present - the whole body of Christ.
@@robertd9965leave your man made protestant CULT or lose your immortal soul. The Bible a Catholic book condemns you your heretical and blasphemous comment.
@@simonslater9024 He is right about this one though. That is why the Catholic Church has always either built her altars on the tombs of Saints and martyrs, or put their relics in the altar. It is why the communion of Saints show up in Revelation, and why we believe they are present at Mass. Not at Anglican services, but at Catholic Masses/Divine Liturgies.
Brian I am from Brazil and I must say you are the only Catholic traditionalist from the Anglo sphere I still listen to, our brothers from the Anglo sphere have some great work but I fear there is a huge temptation of Americanizing the gospel, I am glad you are doing a fantastic job at recognizing the true teachings of the church without falling for some Neo paganism tricks.
Yes, that is a difficulty for Americans. They have a strong sense of identity and patriotism that the two often come in conflict. Luckily, I'm not American.
@@polemeros well i was reffering to the anglo sphere as a whole on my comment lol, the current nationalism in The uk is valid, but the catholic side is doing some dangerously flirting with paganism, Except for Irland though, Irland catholicism is heading the right path.
@jgnogueira as a fellow Brazilian who lives in Canada, as Brian, I totally understand you. However after 15 yeas living here sometimes I feel the same about the brazilian channels... And it fair to be that way. When the government in Brazil try to sneak abortion all channels will start talking about. From Padre Paulo, to IBP, to Centro Don Bosco. (Brasil paralelo is a political channel) Same in the USA, Marshall, Return to Tradition, Pints with aquinas will all in a way or another comment. e. g. Return to tradition focus more in general Chuck news but brings some USA specifics. However it always has something interesting on the side. He is finishing up reading Pascendi. Some more inflammatory than others... Yes, Brian usually stays away from all of this and that's great! Another one that stays out of it is Ferris from How to be Christian. Super funny guy. He is catholic BTW. Watch one video and you understand the name of the channel. What are you watching down south?
I learn so much from you! That Chesterson quote was amazing, especially in the context of Catholicism. Not all the dead are gone with the Communion of Saints, yet we disregard their voices. God bless you! ♥️🙏
People become 'traditionalists' when they see where the modern world is headed and know that it is in serious error. They understand that at some critical point in the past something happened that changed our society from what was once moral, truthful and faithful in keeping us in benevolent prosperity; and they therefore pine to go back to that earlier time and what preceded it to pick up on its mores & traditions, and to bring them to life again for the current generation and for those generations that follow.
Brian, your videos are some of the most thoughtful and insightful of the Catholic TH-cam space. Thank you, and I will support your endeavors in any way I can. Every video you upload forces me to think deeply about an issue, and I appreciate the fact that you don't optimize your videos for "engagement" AKA "conflict porn".
Claiming that others feel superior due to their attendance of a certain mass seems rather uncharitable and presumptuous on the part of that priest if you ask me. And I'm an n.o. attendee.
Speaking for myself as TLM attendee who attended the NO most of my life, it's not that the average TLM attendee feels superior (I certainly don't), it is that the TLM liturgy itself is superior by far in so many respects. It connects us to the living tradition of Catholic liturgical worship, which developed organically over the centuries, whereas the NO liturgy was an artificial construct of a committee of theological "experts" in the 1960s, as Pope Benedict so eloquently described.
@@alphaomega238 You claim one thing then defend another! If folk can agree that Liturgy for the sake of it is almost like a rock band for the sake of it....then perhaps the adult conversation on liturgy can start...instead of talking past 'Jesus'. Preserving beauty & tradition, but MOST importantly igniting the Holy Spirit & a true encounter with the person of Jesus - and by extension fearlessly being Christ to others? Certainly not being a tiny 'tut tutting' few who think without the wider beauty of the Church & dare I say 'diversity' in the proper sense, is an enemy. The wider body of Christ is where you get to stretch...and breath.
Where I live mos of the TLM people feel superior, criticising the NO and the ways of the church while doing nothing to actually solve any problems, or converting people in any way, they just brood and moan, waiting for the world to end, being completely defeatists.
This is so annoying! I hear this all the time. These people are confusing tradition with antiquity. Something being older does not make it more traditional. Tradition is what has been passed down the longest!
Exactly lol, by that logic we should just go back to the Neo paganism of the Vikings and Germanic tribes, tradition is just the pillars of what makes a civilization advance.
And Pius XII already condemned it. Yet due to wishing to return to something they have not themselves received, Pius' warning against antiquarianism has become yet another stick to beat traditionalists with.
Orthodox here. It's not a love for antiquity that makes us preserve the tradition. It's our will to be in communion with the Church not only throug space but also through time. We believe in eternal life. The Saints are still part of the Church today. The Church is not a temporal (secular) institution. Kyrie eleison ☦️
No, we are not, it is you! You think we care about old forms of democracy - we reject democracy in all it's forms, we are consistent. But you liberals want to justify the pagan western way of life & this filthy "freedom of speech". Guess what? Democracy is *incompatible* with Christianity!!
Brian, you really nailed it. Tradition is what has "been handed down". Part of that is the oldest, but all legitimate understandings are actually Catholic.Augustine was as Catholic as Thomas Aquinas was and Augustine was also just as Catholic as Peter. We cannot consider ourselves Catholic unless we are as comfortable with Thomas Aquinas as we are with Peter.
'Catholic' means 'Greeks not welcome'. I don't think saint Peter was 'Catholic' neither was saint Augustin. Aquinas was indeed anti-greek. Also he justified burning people alive. Saint Peter and saint Augustin were orthodox. Return to the orthodox faith. Kyrie eleison ☦️
Excellent short discussion on Tradition. Yes, I remember the 3 legged stool of: Tradition, Scripture & Magisterium. It’s part of the traditional catechism…the never old Baltimore Catechism. I also appreciate your speaking of the passing of the faith through our fathers. Strong societies preserve what is good and learn from their bad; not by self-destruction and re-invention. There is “nothing new under the sun”. -Benedicamos Domino🙏😇
The vast majority of U.S. Catholics haven't been properly catechized for about 60 years. Be patient with people and meet them where they are with joy and kindness. I do think that a reverent NO or TLM in a gorgeous old ornate church should be the norm, but, most Catholics haven't even been exposed to that. Most of the people that want the clown show of the 80s and 90s are dead or dying. People that are about 35 - 75 have no idea, most of this age group think that Catholicism is just a denomination of Christianity. A little catechesis, patience, and conversation go a long way.
Hey Brian. Thanks for always posting consistently. Is it okay to say I didn't understand much of what you said? It felt like a lot of big words strung together. My brain just isn't braining enough to get what you were talking about lol. I appreciate the quality and content of your videos though. I can tell they are truly heartfelt expressions of your deep love for God and the Church. If I struggled to understand what you said and you were speaking English, imagine people who have no clue what is happening in the Latin Mass. I think the Catholic Church as a whole is traditional, as you have said. The Latin Mass, Novus Ordo and any other form of Mass provided the Eucharist is present, is valid. Every other debate is a matter of preference. Either way, wanted to say thank you for being out here posting Catholic content. Your work is deeply appreciated and you are in our prayers.
The Latin Mass's liturgy brings about real piety and reverence towards God _(or at least provides the best opportunity to put that piety in practice, imo, compared to what is currently see in the Novus-Ordo)._ Once you know how the current N-O liturgy have been tempered with by suspected masons who actively sought to undermine the faith, you tend to seek what came before the reform, and TLM is the best answer to that.
The Paul VI Mass is in no way lacking in reverence or beauty. And the extended collection of votive masses, prefaces and Euchsristic Prayers give a richness that the sparseness of the Tridentine liturgy could never match. I suggest you put the two misals side by side and compare them. And, of course, no one would say that the old lectionary should be used. You can say the Paul VI mass in Latin if yoy want. To say that the mumbled, 20 minute weekday mass before the reforms had digniry, well one doesn't take the best of one mass and compare it to the mediocrity of the other. Both masses have been guilty of mediocre celebrations. A solemn Tridentine high mass where the celebrant rushes through the prayers and then sits down bored while the choir continues to sing was not very inspiring. In the Tridentine rite, what the choir did was not an integral part of the mass. The celebrant saying the gloria was the real prayer, not the sung version. When the priest finished, he would frequently sit down, and the congregation with him. In the Paul VI mass, the sung parts are the real parts, not decorations.
I finally went to a Latin Mass recently and yes, being a Catholic raised in the Novus Ordo, I do find TLM superior due to this fact: it is centered around God and treats the Eucharist as a precious item in every step of the liturgy. The NO, in comparison, is Man-Centered and treats the Eucharist as a token, not the real presence.
Finally got to go to TLM this year. There is a feeling of something Holy going on. There are good NO services but a lot is dependent on the priest and how the mass is ran. Church I been going to recently added screens. Feels like I am attending a Mega Church.
I have to admit that the thumbnail made me watch this video. I was wondering what Taylor Marshall, Pope John Paul II, Chesterton, etc. had in common 😂 But in all seriousness, thank you for taking on this topic. Chesterton's quote on Tradition was spot on 🙏🏼
I like that you use the word "description" rather than "definition". One reason people are so clueless and lost these days is that they cannot think outside defined language, they can't think in concepts and real things and have lost the understanding that language is indeed a tool to DESCRIBING reality, NOT to defining it.
I am not sure what sort of tradition we should be going for. I watch quite a few conversion stories of Protestants and it seems to me that they key issue is reverence. That is what blows them away. Regardless of the language of the mass, that is what we should be aiming for and as Michael Lofton points out, that is available in both the LTM and NO masses.
Excellent short discussion on Tradition. Yes, I remember the 3 legged stool of: Tradition, Scripture & Magisterium. It’s part of the traditional catechism…the never old Baltimore Catechism. +Benedicamos Domino🙏😇
He's a relativey well known, contemporary example of someone handing down what's been given? Seems simple enough (to me). And I'm not a SuperFan of his either.
Pius XII condemned 'an exaggerated and senseless archaeologism' in liturgical matters in his encyclical 'Mediator Dei' (1947). Archaeologism is, of course, the antithesis of traditionalism. Good video, Brian.
The problem is rooting out corrupted traditions that are so ubiquitous people don’t even question them. Especially those that started mid-20th century.
The Pope decides what is Tradition, according to Papism, according to Vatican I. How Tradition is applied and interpreted is the purview of the Pope and the Vatican ALONE.
Brian, it's obvious to me that God is working on you. Thank you for the wisdom you shared in this video. I will admit that I have found your content increasingly unfavorable, but I keep coming back to give you "just one more chance" and I'm glad I did because it's obvious to me that you have hit a new milestone with this video. I look forward to see where this line of thought takes you. God bless you!
7:43 “what it means to be catholic OR a follower of Jesus” Honestly refreshing to my ears to hear a Catholic distinct the two, to my understanding you don’t say those outside of the catholic faith aren’t saved. Many of your people would disagree with you understanding Him in such a light.
Traditionalism is more than just holding on to things which are ancient they're holding on to things which are reverent the reason so many young men and women are going to the traditional Latin mass is because of the reverence of the missile compared to the liturgical abuses of the missile promulgated in 1962 by his Holiness Saint Paul VI until the novus ordo missile is properly instituted there will be a call to that which is more reverent to the sacrifice of the mass which would be the tlm traditionalism isn't about what's more ancient it's about what's more reverent and more faithful to Mother Church
The other reasons so many young people go to the Latin Mass is because we have missiles, and sometimes canons, and while some people think this is thurible and get all incensed and exaspergilliumed, we simply take it as a sign that the battle is the Lord's. I apologize to you and every sane person here. I should not hit reply, but clearly I have. Mea culpa.
I love the Latin Mass and I love the Novus Ordo Mass Jesus is the Eucharist giving Himself to us in an amazing way He feeds His Sheep and we should be grateful .Every thing else means nothing when you recognize that you are receiving infinite love at either Mass..
The documentary "Mass of the ages 2" explains it well, tradition developed organically like a tree, the _nouve theologie_ came and chopped that tree to make it "more appealing" to modern man.
Are you talking about the “documentary” that openly bases itself on the misquote about not making the Novus Ordo offensive to protestants? Because that line was literally about one prayer in the Easter vigil. Then it said a lot left the Catholic Church for evangelical denominations. But why would they? Why would someone leave the Church if they knew that is where Jesus is? Only if they didn’t understand their faith does this make sense.
We don’t like it because it’s oldest. We like it because it is the mass of ages and the liturgy is superior. We do t think we as attendees are superior. Stop lying about us and gaslighting us. You’re supposed to be up r brothers and sisters in Christ.
St. Thomas Aquinas is a great example of this Chestertonian idea as he drew from the Fathers and Jewish thinker Moses Maimonides, Al Ghazali and Plato along with Aristotle.
Greek isn't more traditional than Latin. The starting point of tradition is an apostle and the Latin Roman rite comes from St. Peter and St. Paul. It comes from the very beginning.
I think the past couple decades of the church has been plagued by overcorrections. I will quickly note that when we refer to Tradition in the context of the three pillars of the church we are just referring to Apostolic Tradition or the teachings of the Apostles. (I am sure Brian knows this, just wanted to make sure everyone else knew that because it could easily be confused how it was worded in the video) And Apostolic Tradition has little to no barring on the current liturgy wars. But it is true we as Catholics should respect our other traditions (sometimes referred to as little t traditions) but they are not infallible and can be developed and reformed as needed and dictated by the magisterium. Now, as I was saying about overcorrections. An example would be traditions, it is true that some in the church have recklessly disregard tradition but some have overreacted to this by holding on to traditions of men to the point of disobedience to the First See and seeing violations of tradition everywhere even when it is legitimate development and reform. Some even go as far to arrogantly think themselves worthy to judge the See of Rome. Or the liturgy wars were Vatican II saw that the liturgy needed to be simplified slightly and slightly increase the use of the vernacular for the sake of the faithful. This was overcorrected by totally eliminating Latin and oversimplifying against the instructions of the Roman Missal. However, have traditionalists have overcorrected from that by saying that Novus Ordo masses are invalid or that we all should revert back to the Missal of 62. Same with the scholastic vs Patristic thing. The church realized we need to have a revival of the patristics especially some of the newly rediscovered writings. But this was overcorrected to the detriment of the scholastic tradition. We need to, as Aristotle taught find the mean.
1:06 Well technically, heresies are also very old. Councils were made in the early church to address them. I don't like the democracy analogy, but its message about incorporating the lives of all who lived across time I do.
The Last Days of The Church Period We are in the last days of The Church period. Once the rapture of The Church occurs, then the professing Church will be left behind - and the world will experience, THE DAY OF THE LORD! Those who heard the Gospel of The Grace of God and rejected it --- it does not look good for them for God himself who at this time wants them saved, but at that time will become their enemy. The Apostle Paul explains this in the epistle of 2Thessalonians. What's happening now is that many professed believers who are supposedly in The Church are falling away - they are admittedly saying they don't believe in God, Church, or Religion. They, many of them were just professed believers only. During The 70th Week (AKA: The Tribulation Period) many of the mockers will meet their fate - it's really sad, but true. Right now these non-believers, especially from the left want to talk about justice and things like that, but they go absolutely against God's Word - and say Christians are racists and hateful and are hazardous to the world. Also, the 70th Week of Daniel 9:24-27 is where we get The 70th Week. This will start as soon as Israel signs that deal with The Beast. It is very near. The Children of Israel will seek after God, but during this 70th Week, two-thirds of them will be cut off - and the one-third will go Through The Fire - as mentioned by The Prophet Zechariah in 13... Zechariah 13:8,9 8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. This is when The Children of Israel will enter The Messianic Kingdom on Earth and fulfillment of Isaiah 9 will occur... Isaiah 9:6,7 The Mighty God and Everlasting Father 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Part of this prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus of Nazareth was born and served during his Earthly Ministry, but the rest will occur at the Messianic Kingdom. This is when The Prophecy of Ezekiel 47 and 48 will be fulfilled when Israel will get their inheritance in that Promised Land. This will occur. Meanwhile there will be no peace in the Land of Israel until they sign that Covenant with The Beast. They will at that time have a peace for 3 1/2 years, but they will be set up - and that is what Jesus of Nazareth was talking about in Matthew 24 about the last generation. Now is the time to believe. We are still in the Period of The Church which happens to be the simplest time to be saved. Once the Rapture of The Church occurs... things will be VERY DIFFERENT!
I feel like you quickly went through the fact that the latin mass is older than the 16th Century. From my understanding it was codified in 1570, The tridentine mass at least. Maybe you can do an entire video about its history. I know it wasn't your focus for this video but I feel like a lot of us could really use a good explanation on its history and you create GREAT videos! Thanks for all you do.
Thank you for your work. And now I come with the most trivial, if not disrespectful, question : where do you buy your clothes ? I'm looking to buy durable clothes and yours seem to be it. I have a more serious question brewing, but it' still blurry yet. God bless you.
Does Chesterton really not understand why one would feel that democracy is incompatible with traditionalism? My thought is that Democracy is heavily linked with the French Revolution and its ideals, one of which is that of the "Free Thinker." I think the French Revolution is bundled up with this idea that mankind has always been enslaved in his mind to some kind of perceived higher power - God, the gods, Monarchs, Emperors, Clergymen, Patriarchs, etc. but that now, with science, with the "light of reason," man can, for the first time in human history, chart a new course for himself. Using Democracy, to vote in a way that's piously faithful to one's ancestors, kind of misses the point. The freedom that's been granted to you, has not been used to venture out into uncharted waters, but instead, to stay in the lakes that one's grandfathers knew. Such voting is democratic, but it seems to lack the spirit. (Rejecting the spirit of the French Revolution, is of course, a good thing!)
I don't know. I haven't given it a name yet. Gerald maybe? At any rate, you can find it here: www.etsy.com/ca/listing/1705072306/diy-wooden-gothic-lantern-hanging-lamp
Almost always when the topic of tradition comes up online it usually gravitates to and is falsely summed up with those saying Vatican II + Novus Ordo = bad (modernism within the church), with of course the Latin mass being the remedy for all that ails the church. If not explicitly stated such is heavily implied. The church by the way doesn't have a problem with the latin mass (and I don't know of anyone that "hates" the latin mass) but I know of many who hate anything but the latin mass. No matter what form I may prefer for a mass, even if the magisterium all of a sudden was to say I couldn't celebrate mass in the way I have done for years and may prefer, I would accept that, stay on the Arc of Peter, not promote schism or set up a parallel church to my liking.
The Catholic Church is Traditional. Every Catholic should be Traditional. True Traditional Catholics simply reject Modernist ideas introduced to the Faithful which includes the NO Mass. I prefer the identity of a Devout Catholic. A devout Catholic will not adhere to this Mass or other Modernist ideas.
First of all, no one said that Latin was more traditional. Neither is it the of time a particular language is used at Mass is what makes it traditional. Latin is the “ritual language of the holy Catholic ROMAN Catholic Chuurch . It is important for that reason . And it remains so because it adds to the sanctity of the ritual, the mass is-a “Ritual” sacrifice of Christ on the cross until the moment of the transubstantiation when he actually takes residence in the host, body blood soul” and divinity . The problem with the vernacular is it doesn’t feel nor confer “the sacred” It looks like a cooking demonstration as Joseph Campbell put it also the vernacular has too many tawdry associations to it . The change in the language has also been the impetus for some of the ridiculous events that happen at masses around the world. We need a return to the ritual language if not the entire Tridentine rite as soon as possible.
That's really odd that your first homily you heard was bashing the Latin Mass... I've never heard it brought up in all my years of being Catholic. It's a very small minority of Masses (probably a fraction of 1%), and those few Masses are now being limited by the hierarchy, mostly because a lot of "trads" spend their time bashing instead of building the Church so they're seen as an enemy by some bishops. The lay people though probably are not even aware it still even exists. On your points about Nouvelle Theologie vs Scholasticism, I think you're looking at Scholasticism as the real synthesis across time (taking into account the early fathers as well as the best thinking up to that time) but fail to see that Nouvelle Theologie was a synthesis of early fathers, scholasticism, AND a ton of new insights from science, world wars, human rights efforts, Biblical scholarship etc. Each generation should do its best to synthesis the new and old to get as close as we can to the full truth. Taking Aquinas or Augustine as gospel now would be kind of ridiculous based on what we know. They were very important, but they were not the final stage. The development of doctrine always moves us closer to understanding reality as the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, as John 16 says. Humbly following the magisterium of the bishops, who are given this task of reconciling past to present, is hard. But antiquarian LARPing only divides us, maybe just as much as the progressive wing of the Church, who also don't accept the magisterium but for opposite reasons.
Me, wearing a tunic, growing a beard, and only attending masses in Aramaic using a whole loaf of unleavened bread: “I’m not much of a frequenter of any of these newfangled liturgies in Latin or the local dialect”
I'm at a loss how many people, including Brian are both swallowing and propagating the narrative that it is people like this priest of the N.O. who are being divisive by feeling superior about the Mass they celebrate/attend, when the fact is that it is the traditionalists who normally engage in such behavior. For one thing, Novus Ordo faithful are typically ignorant of the Mass wars and are content with what they have. Trads, on the other hand, know something about the history of the Mass and the changes of the Second Vatican Council. They are the ones who typically express a preference to one form of the Mass, namely the Tridentine, and in some cases take this too far in displaying contempt for the Novus Ordo. Just wait. Even under this video or even this very comment, they will appear to start throwing insults at the Novus Ordo. So it's disingenuous for people to claim that it is the Novus Ordo people who attack or ridicule trads, or that trads just want to celebrate the Tridentine rite but are being persecuted. That's nonsense.
Pretty standard behavior. Push, push, push, then when they push back you tell the world “hey look at this violent savage. This is why we must defend ourselves”. Then push, push, push, and repeat
for me its like choosing between the lesser of two evils. On one hand, in the NO, you have irreverence and ignorance, which is easy soil for the growth of heresy, and in the Trad, you have pride and a cult like mentality as well as an infection of puritanism. But what makes one worse than the other for me is the mass itself. one shows proper reverence for Christ and representation for what the mass is, while the other, even when trying its hardest, is at best a misfit container for what the mass itself is. Even in reverent NO masses: they're too short, interrupted by the sign of peace, and the Eucharist is being handled by non-priests with unconsecrated hands.
This is not the priest's logic. It's the traditionalists' own logic, which he's demonstrating to be false. If you think that's not traditionalism, well, that's the case most trads make and we run with it.
From an FSSP parishioner: That is actually a funny statement to say: Those Trads are not traditional enough with their Latin Mass. Let's go a greek, hebrew or slavonic one :D
It's a type of argument I've seen in a variety of circumstances: You can't achieve a truly pure version of what you're looking for (according to my interpretation) so just give it up now. Erroneous on two counts: First, we aren't antiquarian, and second, even if antiquarianism were correct, why should anyone give up on something better, just because it isn't perfect?
I don't prefer the TLM because it's old. I prefer it because it's reverent and beautiful. I grew up in the post-V2 church. I simply never connected with the practices of the Novus Ordo the way I did with the TLM. That's it. I don't feel smug or superior about my choice. I just happen to find goodness, truth, and beauty in abundance in the TLM. That's not to say a NO Mass can't be done well, but in my experience they're the exception rather than the rule. And because the NO was a contrivance, it inherently opens itself to abuse and irreverence. The TLM, in contrast, is pretty much done one way and one way only. There's something to be said for that. If we're going to change something, then let it be because it actually needs to change, not merely for the sake of change itself. Those who manufactured the NO seem to have done it as a concession to the age, and not because anything urgently needed to change. It's the same mindset that gives us wokified updates of old Hollywood classics on the basis that they needed to be "updated for modern audiences."
This is the elephant in the room of modern Traditionalism. Suspicion or rejection of the living Magisterium, especially concerning Vatican II and its reforms, has become an increasingly dominant theme of the movement. For this reason, Catholics should be more cautious about identifying themselves with it or calling themselves Traditionalists. False ideological Traditionalism is absorbing the Traditional Catholic movement in the same way the scxual revolutionaries came to possess the feminist movement.
Well the irony of that priests argument is assuming that simply living in the modern world and being a modernist equates to the same thing. 🙃 Is it just me.
Don't you undertand that Latin is one of the sacred languages? The church in Rome spoke latin and if we believe that our first pope was Peter we should follow the traditional mass in latin, but if you want it in your language ok but at least use the old liturgy not novus ordo. The church is in trouble from Germany to the USA. I pray for you 🙏🏻 from the bottom of my heart from Peru
Brian, the Nouvelle théologie theologians were not averse to Aquinas or the Middle Ages but to the NEO-scholastic approach which (they argued) was insufficiently catholic. You only have to read de Lubac or von Balthasar to know the high esteem in which they held Aquinas and Bonaventure, for example.
Wrong, both are wrong. The latin mass is much older than that, but each pope added to it, we cannot know for certain how old is it. The latin mass was the mass of the surroundings of Rome and was taken to combat "protestant influences" in other territories. Do not say it was "invented" at Trent for it's false.
I’m disappointed with this video. It appears that Brian does not understand the quite varied views within the unhelpful term “Nouvelle Théologie,” and-even worse-misrepresents the best thinkers labeled (against their will) with that appellation: the ressourcement crowd. They weren’t against the high scholastics at all. One of de Lubac’s major contributions was a multivolume work on medieval exegesis (to recover it in the face of liberal progressive scholarship). Even his work on nature & grace intended a correction to misunderstandings of Thomas’s thought. Ratzinger worked deeply on St. Bonaventure. They took issue with NEO-Scholasticism that focused so heavily on one strand of one commentatorial tradition of one Scholastic and lost direct contact with the study of Sacred Scripture and the Fathers in favor of more recent commentators almost exclusively. And it wasn’t the ressourcement/nouvelle guys who were rejecting Scotus: it was the neo-Thomists! The ressourcement movement was in favor of studying more scholastics. It’s quite ironic that at the end he says its wrong to take the worst examples of a group and act like they are representative of the whole. It was the ressourcement group that was advocating for the whole tradition and not only one subset to have a voice, even if the latter also has a right to a voice.
the catholic patriarchy of Rome in other words the latin rite should definitely be said in LATIN. I would not mind the catholic patriarchy of jerusalem to be said in hebrew. just like the byzantine rite should be said in greek. SIMPLE AS THAT KEEP THE ROMAN RITE LATIN ONLY
That first bit on Latin makes little sense to me. When I was in the Protestant world the Cross's label was a bit of a problem for me. Why was it labeled in Hebrew, Greek AND Latin? Latin was the language of Rome. It is also the language of the Vulgate, which for much of Church history was the Bible as far any anyone was concerned. It was/is the Catholic Bible. Latin goes all the way back to the Cross and seems to tie all three of these languages together in a special prophetic way. So, that argument makes little sense to me.
Yes, but even the Vulgate is but one of many translations. Scripture was originally written in Greek for the New Testament and Hebrew for the Old (with some passages in Aramaic, e.g. Daniel).
@@ХристоМартунковграфЛозенски How many of those translations were used by how many people? Over what period of time? During that time by what percentage of the Christians?
This video is great !!!! Fot the normal run of the mill person a bunch of pretty words and didn't understand anything meaningful . But, just to be fair, all the arguments for TLM or NO are null. In the majority of cases you cannot chose the mass , we get NO because of the situation the churches are in , there is no way of choosing tradition or not . We have to be grateful for what we have available . And thank God there are still priests in our area, we have gone down from 10 priest to 2. Confessions are also limited .
"Tradition" doesn't refer specifically to the Mass, but to the Divine Revelation, handed down from the Apostles, that is found in the Mass, in the missal, lectionary, rubrics, and calendar. It is also found in music, art, architecture, the writings of the Church Fathers, and anywhere else that the authentic teaching of the Apostles can be found. You can choose Tradition, because you can choose to seek out that teaching, through those things, in the clearest and richest forms you can find. That's not just going to Mass, it's also reading (you can find and read the old lectionary for free online. And those of other Rites too.) You can read the Fathers, the Saints. You can find images of sacred art on museum websites, or go visit in person. You can play traditional sacred music on youtube, learn traditional chants, practice traditional feasts and fasts and prayer. While it is unfortunate that the TLM itself is not available to you, that is hardly the totality of Tradition to be found, because the Mass is not the totality of the spiritual life.
@@duathellto1460 all of that is wonderful . I live in an area where we are lucky to have mass, if not, a deacon comes and celebrates a Liturgy of the Word. The "tradition" where I live is basically what is passed on by the older generation , nobody here even comes near to speaking about Latin masses or arguing about the missal . None of that has any relevance in our Catholic celebrations . Besides all you are telling me is to look at the HISTORY of the church.
@@miguelsemidei7619 Tradition is not just history. It contains things that are true now, and therefore relevant now, and therefore life-giving, now. It contains things that you can *do*, and not just learn about, as I mentioned learning chants, practicing traditional feasts and fasts and prayer. Actual practices, I agree study alone isn't enough. There are 5 pillars of the spiritual life: prayer, fasting, almsgiving, study, and Sacraments. Only one of those, Sacraments, is something that you cannot control (and even there you still have your Baptism, which is all that generations of persecuted Japanese Catholics had, and nearly all St. Mary of Egypt had). It is the 21st century, and you don't have to rely strictly on the older generation around you to pass on the Faith of our fathers. And no Catholic ever had to passively accept the available Eucharistic celebrations as the entirety of living out the Faith of our fathers. Even if you had Mass every week, if you never prayed, your spiritual life would stink, yes? Like a relationship between husband and wife would stink if they ignored each other except for one hour a week. So you can incorporate Tradition into all of your spiritual life that takes place for the 111 waking hours of the week that aren't spent at church on Sunday. That's hardly irrelevant. I'm not telling you anything that most traditionalists haven't thought through, due to closures of TLMs. This is the practical plan. Traditional Catholicism is a lifestyle, not just a Sunday Mass thing, therefore it continues, even without a TLM, or any Mass on Sunday. Frankly, I think it's far worse if (perhaps you do not think this) a person thinks of Catholicism as being totally contained in the Sunday Mass/service, than that you can't get to a TLM. A right relationship with Jesus cannot be so constrained.
@@duathellto1460 you just don't get it . A tradition is something you do because it was passed on to you . Like ornaments for the tree or thanksgiving at grandmas. Church traditions vary from country to country , when was the last time you helped carry a 2000 pound statue of St Blas , which is a tradition in Spain . Tradition is according to what has been passed on to YOU which you in turn teach your children .
@@miguelsemidei7619 That is one definition of tradition, although one can always look up grandma's traditions, or great-grandma's, or start your own. There are some second or third generation immigrants who get interested in their heritage and work at reviving their customs for their children. That is not the only definition of tradition. Capital T Tradition is one of the three sources of Catholic teaching regarding Divine Revelation, along with Scripture and Magisterium. It specifically refers to what has been passed on from the Apostles, regardless of the intervening path (converts generally don't get it from their parents). They taught the truth, and anyone who teaches what they taught, teaches the truth, while anyone (even your immediate elders) who teach something different, is teaching falsehoods. This much can be found in virtually any catechism.
I was just talking about all of this two nights ago with my wife’s 89 year old grandpa, born in 1935… a very devout and faithful catholic. As ‘Younger Catholics’ (those of us with no living memory of life pre Vatican 2) we NEED to listen to the last of our kin who actually lived this, I mean really lived it - not just those who attend the TLM but have no significant living memory of life pre-V2. My wife’s grandfather was 27 years old in 1962, and his parents made him serve as an alter server at daily Mass until he was old enough to leave the house. Now, he’s never left the faith, and is a faithfully practicing Catholic, but he told me he HATED the Latin Mass because of how he never understood anything, even after being a lifelong alter boy, and the priest would get really mad at him for mispronouncing any of the words that only the alter boys had to say - the priests would rush through the prayers with little regard to ‘true worship’ like the modern day ‘traditionalists’ claim is the reason the TLM is so great… By his own admission, he was not an academic and only went to grade 9 in school - but he was a very successful business man having started owning gas stations in the 50’s when it was classy, and involved getting dressed up to serve your customers and pump gas. He also built a plastics manufacturing plant and manufactured bottles for Coke, which he then sold, and he’s also made a lot of money trading stocks - He’s only read one actual book in his life after finishing school, but still LOVES to learn in his own way (by doing things) - yet, ALWAYS faithfully attending Mass. So he was the literal stereotype of the demographic of a truly faithful lay Catholic with whom the Latin Mass was completely ‘out of touch’ and intellectually inaccessible too (probably none of the people watching this video). The lived experiences from all of the Catholics who I personally know who grew up with the rigidity and rules of life pre-V2 (and in my wife’s grandpa’s words “rules - and that’s all they were, rules.”) are drastically different than what devotees to the TLM claim today. V2 was greatly welcomed by many people once they could understand the Mass - and actually be invited to participate and understand the entire Mass. Now, V2 did go too far in many, many ways, but it was done because of a genuine need to stop the abuses of the ‘Mass of the Ages’ - perhaps by enacting V2, it helped save the true dignity and worship that the TLM actually does have, when said the way it’s intended, but as the only liturgy mandated to the global church for many centuries, it did experience a lot of abuses, just as the NO Mass is famous for accomplishing. I personally believe, a reintroduction of Latin into the NO done incrementally for small parts of the Mass, and in a way where people are actually being taught what they are saying and actively participating, as well as alter rails, communion on the tongue, ad orientum, the reintegration of more sacred music, longer mandatory fasting periods prior to communion, and encouraging people to be more respectful in their attire and towards one another during the sign of peace would go a long way towards reclaiming the dignity of the Mass, without alienating the laity in the same way that was the prevailing experience of the lay faithful of pre-1962… this same thing applies to my grandfather as well who was born in 1918 and died in 2009 - he attended regular Mass on the battlefields during WW2, and grew up as a cradle Catholic with only a grade 3 education, but was a voracious lifelong reader, and prayed with his Pieta prayer book daily for as long as I can remember him - and he knelt down and prayed the rosary every day when he baby sat me when I was very young… some very devout Catholics welcomed the switch to the vernacular. We would all be wise to remember these people as we discuss these topics going forward, and as a very wise priest once told my wife and I (in 2011) regarding world peace; “When we no longer remember the pains of war, we will no longer have peace.” I think we are there in so many ways, and this ‘Us vs. Them’ bickering about what Mass is better is proof of the lived memory which we’ve collectively lost. We need to move forward and acknowledge that there have been many grievous abuses as a result of Vatican 2, but also that for most common people, the TLM was also abused and out of touch, but an integration of the best parts of all of our history could be harmonized moving forward - we don’t need to live in the past, but we do definitely need to remember it.
What's that lovely music playing at the end? And, for that matter, at the beginning? You should give credit for the music in the video descriptions. Unless it is your own music and you're just being modest.
The statement by the priest that says traditional Catholics should use Greek not Latin is ignorant and false. The traditional Mass and liturgy does use Greek...the kyrie is is Greek. Also the traditionsl Easter liturgy includes Greek. In addition Greek and Latin have many words and grammar they share because these were absorbed into Latin. The West of Europe used Latin for government administration. The East did too but Greek and other languages such as Aramaic were used. The apostles were multi lingual as was Jesus. How then did he communicate with Pontius Pilate who would have only spoken Latin. The West's unifying language was Latin. The East Greek.
Sorry but Pilate probably spoke Greek too. Due to the massive possessions of the Romans in the East they probably took Koinè Greek as a form of lingua franca. Latin in the East was a very niche thing and in general it would be easier to make emissaries and governors of Rome learn Greek than it would be to force the native population to learn Latin while Greek was perfectly available. This is also probably why the New Testament is in Greek, even the parts tradition tell us were written in Rome. Now whether Jesus actually spoke Latin it is a much harder to topic, but I'll take a guess and say he only knew a handful of words.
“Tradition is not the worshipping of ashes, but the preservation of fire.” -Arthur Kwon Lee
That is not who said it😭😭😭😭😭😭
Lættis aside, it was Gustav Mahler
The Longest Johns' original song Ashes?
Also attributed to Jean Jaures and Thomas More...
Beautiful quote! Thanks for posting!
J.R.R. Tolkien, confronted by having the Mass of Ages banned overnight and replaced by the New Mass (that claimed a return to origins) wrote in a letter, 'I do not understand the mania that the early Church is superior to the Church today because I don't understand why a sapling is superior to the full-grown tree; and in any case, if the sapling is superior to the full-grown tree, you don't get back the purity of the sapling by cutting down the tree. You simply kill the tree.' Any honest witness to the 'fruits' of the V2 Mass must acknowledge that it is, if not able to kill, wounds the 2000 year old holy and wise tree/Mystical Body of Christ. G.K. Chesterton wrote that, 'Tradition is the proxy of the dead and the enfranchisement of the unborn.' Through Holy Tradition the Holy Ghost saves each generation from being slaves of the zeitgeist that not only ignores but adopts the heretical and schismatic doctrines and practices that the 2000 year old tree has prudently and perfectly (the gates of hell shall not prevail) stood against. Kyrie eleison.
Let us never think the Catholic Church is a Democracy.
True - it is hierarchical.
That would mean respecting Catholic authority even the current one. Ths channel and other former protestants like him don't.
I attended NO Mass twice...I saw how the Eucharist was handled, and it was completely alien to even my Lutheran Church upbringing. I attended TLM Mass at an SSPX Chapel, and was blown away by the beauty and reverence of the service.
To me, this isn't about who can out-Trad who - but about Liturgical correctness and proper reverence.
Tradition is not deference given to the very old; tradition is preference for the eternal.
And that which carries it.
Beautifully said, Andy Copeland.
The Anglican liturgist, George Guiver, said WTTE, “Jesus said, ‘Do this in remembrance of me’ - but we also do it remembering those who have also remembered”. The Mass brings us into communion with the whole Church - past as well as present - the whole body of Christ.
Where does it say that in the Bible?
Catholic mass has no backing in the Bible, none whatsoever.
He belonged to the Anglican CULT. There’s ONLY ONE CHURCH the holy Catholic Church which is Jesus’s mystical body on earth.
@@simonslater9024 You mean the one that has consistently violated Scripture, gone against Jesus's teachings, and made a ton of stuff up? Sure.
@@robertd9965leave your man made protestant CULT or lose your immortal soul. The Bible a Catholic book condemns you your heretical and blasphemous comment.
@@simonslater9024 He is right about this one though. That is why the Catholic Church has always either built her altars on the tombs of Saints and martyrs, or put their relics in the altar. It is why the communion of Saints show up in Revelation, and why we believe they are present at Mass. Not at Anglican services, but at Catholic Masses/Divine Liturgies.
Brian I am from Brazil and I must say you are the only Catholic traditionalist from the Anglo sphere I still listen to, our brothers from the Anglo sphere have some great work but I fear there is a huge temptation of Americanizing the gospel, I am glad you are doing a fantastic job at recognizing the true teachings of the church without falling for some Neo paganism tricks.
Yes, that is a difficulty for Americans. They have a strong sense of identity and patriotism that the two often come in conflict. Luckily, I'm not American.
@@BrianHoldsworth We feel the same way about you. Given the disastrous state of Canada, no reason to feel superior.
@@polemeros well i was reffering to the anglo sphere as a whole on my comment lol, the current nationalism in The uk is valid, but the catholic side is doing some dangerously flirting with paganism, Except for Irland though, Irland catholicism is heading the right path.
@@jgnogueira What precisely gives you knowledge of the "Anglo sphere?"
@jgnogueira as a fellow Brazilian who lives in Canada, as Brian, I totally understand you. However after 15 yeas living here sometimes I feel the same about the brazilian channels... And it fair to be that way.
When the government in Brazil try to sneak abortion all channels will start talking about. From Padre Paulo, to IBP, to Centro Don Bosco. (Brasil paralelo is a political channel)
Same in the USA, Marshall, Return to Tradition, Pints with aquinas will all in a way or another comment.
e. g. Return to tradition focus more in general Chuck news but brings some USA specifics. However it always has something interesting on the side. He is finishing up reading Pascendi.
Some more inflammatory than others...
Yes, Brian usually stays away from all of this and that's great!
Another one that stays out of it is Ferris from How to be Christian. Super funny guy. He is catholic BTW. Watch one video and you understand the name of the channel.
What are you watching down south?
I learn so much from you! That Chesterson quote was amazing, especially in the context of Catholicism. Not all the dead are gone with the Communion of Saints, yet we disregard their voices. God bless you! ♥️🙏
People become 'traditionalists' when they see where the modern world is headed and know that it is in serious error. They understand that at some critical point in the past something happened that changed our society from what was once moral, truthful and faithful in keeping us in benevolent prosperity; and they therefore pine to go back to that earlier time and what preceded it to pick up on its mores & traditions, and to bring them to life again for the current generation and for those generations that follow.
Too bad they have no idea which traditions are actually good, or if they're even real traditions and not myths inspired by a modern perspective.
Así es
Brian, your videos are some of the most thoughtful and insightful of the Catholic TH-cam space. Thank you, and I will support your endeavors in any way I can. Every video you upload forces me to think deeply about an issue, and I appreciate the fact that you don't optimize your videos for "engagement" AKA "conflict porn".
That's a very kind sentiment. It's a joy to know that it has this effect for some viewers.
Claiming that others feel superior due to their attendance of a certain mass seems rather uncharitable and presumptuous on the part of that priest if you ask me. And I'm an n.o. attendee.
Unfortunately that’s what the SSPX are like.
Speaking for myself as TLM attendee who attended the NO most of my life, it's not that the average TLM attendee feels superior (I certainly don't), it is that the TLM liturgy itself is superior by far in so many respects. It connects us to the living tradition of Catholic liturgical worship, which developed organically over the centuries, whereas the NO liturgy was an artificial construct of a committee of theological "experts" in the 1960s, as Pope Benedict so eloquently described.
@@alphaomega238 You claim one thing then defend another! If folk can agree that Liturgy for the sake of it is almost like a rock band for the sake of it....then perhaps the adult conversation on liturgy can start...instead of talking past 'Jesus'.
Preserving beauty & tradition, but MOST importantly igniting the Holy Spirit & a true encounter with the person of Jesus - and by extension fearlessly being Christ to others? Certainly not being a tiny 'tut tutting' few who think without the wider beauty of the Church & dare I say 'diversity' in the proper sense, is an enemy. The wider body of Christ is where you get to stretch...and breath.
Where I live mos of the TLM people feel superior, criticising the NO and the ways of the church while doing nothing to actually solve any problems, or converting people in any way, they just brood and moan, waiting for the world to end, being completely defeatists.
@@DakkogiRauru23sspx masses are the best ones I've attended. Best observance of reverance
This is so annoying! I hear this all the time. These people are confusing tradition with antiquity. Something being older does not make it more traditional. Tradition is what has been passed down the longest!
Exactly lol, by that logic we should just go back to the Neo paganism of the Vikings and Germanic tribes, tradition is just the pillars of what makes a civilization advance.
And Pius XII already condemned it. Yet due to wishing to return to something they have not themselves received, Pius' warning against antiquarianism has become yet another stick to beat traditionalists with.
Orthodox here. It's not a love for antiquity that makes us preserve the tradition. It's our will to be in communion with the Church not only throug space but also through time.
We believe in eternal life. The Saints are still part of the Church today.
The Church is not a temporal (secular) institution.
Kyrie eleison ☦️
No, we are not, it is you! You think we care about old forms of democracy - we reject democracy in all it's forms, we are consistent. But you liberals want to justify the pagan western way of life & this filthy "freedom of speech". Guess what? Democracy is *incompatible* with Christianity!!
You contradicted yourself when you said “something being older does not make it more traditional. Tradition is what has been passed down the longest”
Tradition, from "tradere" - to transmit, to hand over, or to give for safekeeping
Latin is sigma based
Brian, you really nailed it. Tradition is what has "been handed down". Part of that is the oldest, but all legitimate understandings are actually Catholic.Augustine was as Catholic as Thomas Aquinas was and Augustine was also just as Catholic as Peter. We cannot consider ourselves Catholic unless we are as comfortable with Thomas Aquinas as we are with Peter.
'Catholic' means 'Greeks not welcome'.
I don't think saint Peter was 'Catholic' neither was saint Augustin.
Aquinas was indeed anti-greek. Also he justified burning people alive.
Saint Peter and saint Augustin were orthodox.
Return to the orthodox faith.
Kyrie eleison ☦️
Excellent short discussion on Tradition. Yes, I remember the 3 legged stool of: Tradition, Scripture & Magisterium. It’s part of the traditional catechism…the never old Baltimore Catechism. I also appreciate your speaking of the passing of the faith through our fathers. Strong societies preserve what is good and learn from their bad; not by self-destruction and re-invention. There is “nothing new under the sun”. -Benedicamos Domino🙏😇
The vast majority of U.S. Catholics haven't been properly catechized for about 60 years. Be patient with people and meet them where they are with joy and kindness. I do think that a reverent NO or TLM in a gorgeous old ornate church should be the norm, but, most Catholics haven't even been exposed to that. Most of the people that want the clown show of the 80s and 90s are dead or dying. People that are about 35 - 75 have no idea, most of this age group think that Catholicism is just a denomination of Christianity. A little catechesis, patience, and conversation go a long way.
Ok. But democracy is cringe and monarchy is based
Democracy is cringe, monarchy is cringe, republicanism is based.
No democracy, monarchy, and republicanisn is cringe
Dictatorship is based
*I am just a joking btw if you cant tell*
@@mrman5066
Lmao, no it isn't
'murican moment right there
"I love monarchy" *monarch he doesn't like takes power* wait not like that.
Tradition is to be catholic: neither the just newest nor just the oldest, but the whole.
"Nothing removed, nothing added, nothing altered!"
Hey Brian. Thanks for always posting consistently.
Is it okay to say I didn't understand much of what you said? It felt like a lot of big words strung together. My brain just isn't braining enough to get what you were talking about lol.
I appreciate the quality and content of your videos though. I can tell they are truly heartfelt expressions of your deep love for God and the Church.
If I struggled to understand what you said and you were speaking English, imagine people who have no clue what is happening in the Latin Mass.
I think the Catholic Church as a whole is traditional, as you have said.
The Latin Mass, Novus Ordo and any other form of Mass provided the Eucharist is present, is valid.
Every other debate is a matter of preference.
Either way, wanted to say thank you for being out here posting Catholic content. Your work is deeply appreciated and you are in our prayers.
Mr Holdsworths children have a great teacher in him.
Yeah... im not Catholic but I respect the "trads" way more.
"trad" - this is simply how an ordinary Catholic can be described for the last 19 centuries of the Church
I like how you put it, Holdsworth: The Nouvelle Theologie went back and admitted only what they wanted from Tradition at the table.
The Latin Mass's liturgy brings about real piety and reverence towards God _(or at least provides the best opportunity to put that piety in practice, imo, compared to what is currently see in the Novus-Ordo)._ Once you know how the current N-O liturgy have been tempered with by suspected masons who actively sought to undermine the faith, you tend to seek what came before the reform, and TLM is the best answer to that.
The Paul VI Mass is in no way lacking in reverence or beauty. And the extended collection of votive masses, prefaces and Euchsristic Prayers give a richness that the sparseness of the Tridentine liturgy could never match. I suggest you put the two misals side by side and compare them. And, of course, no one would say that the old lectionary should be used. You can say the Paul VI mass in Latin if yoy want. To say that the mumbled, 20 minute weekday mass before the reforms had digniry, well one doesn't take the best of one mass and compare it to the mediocrity of the other. Both masses have been guilty of mediocre celebrations. A solemn Tridentine high mass where the celebrant rushes through the prayers and then sits down bored while the choir continues to sing was not very inspiring. In the Tridentine rite, what the choir did was not an integral part of the mass. The celebrant saying the gloria was the real prayer, not the sung version. When the priest finished, he would frequently sit down, and the congregation with him. In the Paul VI mass, the sung parts are the real parts, not decorations.
Somebody lied to you if they said Masons had a part in the liturgical reform.
@@robertcoogan6421 I think your reality looks a lot better than the one we really live in, pal.
Brian, that was one of your best! Thank you!
I finally went to a Latin Mass recently and yes, being a Catholic raised in the Novus Ordo, I do find TLM superior due to this fact: it is centered around God and treats the Eucharist as a precious item in every step of the liturgy. The NO, in comparison, is Man-Centered and treats the Eucharist as a token, not the real presence.
Finally got to go to TLM this year. There is a feeling of something Holy going on. There are good NO services but a lot is dependent on the priest and how the mass is ran. Church I been going to recently added screens. Feels like I am attending a Mega Church.
I have to admit that the thumbnail made me watch this video. I was wondering what Taylor Marshall, Pope John Paul II, Chesterton, etc. had in common 😂
But in all seriousness, thank you for taking on this topic. Chesterton's quote on Tradition was spot on 🙏🏼
Wasn’t the thumbnail yesterday Aquinas and Fr James Martin? Or am I imagining things?
No, you’re not, it was Fr. James Martin.
I like that you use the word "description" rather than "definition". One reason people are so clueless and lost these days is that they cannot think outside defined language, they can't think in concepts and real things and have lost the understanding that language is indeed a tool to DESCRIBING reality, NOT to defining it.
I am not sure what sort of tradition we should be going for. I watch quite a few conversion stories of Protestants and it seems to me that they key issue is reverence. That is what blows them away. Regardless of the language of the mass, that is what we should be aiming for and as Michael Lofton points out, that is available in both the LTM and NO masses.
I wish.
@@lorddevonshire6382 It is available. Whether the mass you go to does it or not.
Michael Lofton is just one of _many_ who claim that; among those he's just particularly controversial, which might mean you're trying to annoy people.
@@nathanvangoor4979 Evil be unto him who evil thinks.
@@BensWorkshop I don't understand what you mean by that
Excellent short discussion on Tradition. Yes, I remember the 3 legged stool of: Tradition, Scripture & Magisterium. It’s part of the traditional catechism…the never old Baltimore Catechism. +Benedicamos Domino🙏😇
Very lucid clarification. Thank you!
Why is Taylor Marshal in your thumbnail?
Because it’s clickbait
"That's bait." - Tom Hardy.gif
Cause he needs money and Marshall brings in the views
I appreciate it but I was hoping that Brian would answer. 😂
He's a relativey well known, contemporary example of someone handing down what's been given?
Seems simple enough (to me). And I'm not a SuperFan of his either.
Pius XII condemned 'an exaggerated and senseless archaeologism' in liturgical matters in his encyclical 'Mediator Dei' (1947). Archaeologism is, of course, the antithesis of traditionalism.
Good video, Brian.
The problem is rooting out corrupted traditions that are so ubiquitous people don’t even question them. Especially those that started mid-20th century.
The Pope decides what is Tradition, according to Papism, according to Vatican I. How Tradition is applied and interpreted is the purview of the Pope and the Vatican ALONE.
Thanks for sharing your perspective, God bless
Theres a war going on. Protestant vs "Catholic" vs Catholic
The single best account of the liturgical reform/ liturgy as such is Laurence Hemming's "Worship as A Revelation." Really the only one we need tbh
Brian, it's obvious to me that God is working on you. Thank you for the wisdom you shared in this video. I will admit that I have found your content increasingly unfavorable, but I keep coming back to give you "just one more chance" and I'm glad I did because it's obvious to me that you have hit a new milestone with this video. I look forward to see where this line of thought takes you. God bless you!
7:43 “what it means to be catholic OR a follower of Jesus”
Honestly refreshing to my ears to hear a Catholic distinct the two, to my understanding you don’t say those outside of the catholic faith aren’t saved. Many of your people would disagree with you understanding Him in such a light.
Look up, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.
Traditionalism is more than just holding on to things which are ancient they're holding on to things which are reverent the reason so many young men and women are going to the traditional Latin mass is because of the reverence of the missile compared to the liturgical abuses of the missile promulgated in 1962 by his Holiness Saint Paul VI until the novus ordo missile is properly instituted there will be a call to that which is more reverent to the sacrifice of the mass which would be the tlm traditionalism isn't about what's more ancient it's about what's more reverent and more faithful to Mother Church
The other reasons so many young people go to the Latin Mass is because we have missiles, and sometimes canons, and while some people think this is thurible and get all incensed and exaspergilliumed, we simply take it as a sign that the battle is the Lord's.
I apologize to you and every sane person here. I should not hit reply, but clearly I have. Mea culpa.
@@duathellto1460 Ha! underrated comment right here
I love the Latin Mass and I love the Novus Ordo Mass Jesus is the Eucharist giving Himself to us in an amazing way He feeds His Sheep and we should be grateful .Every thing else means nothing when you recognize that you are receiving infinite love at either Mass..
The documentary "Mass of the ages 2" explains it well, tradition developed organically like a tree, the _nouve theologie_ came and chopped that tree to make it "more appealing" to modern man.
"We do not cherish things based on how old they are but how long they are in use"
More like blowtorched the limbs, cut the leaves, and dug up many of the roots, and blame tradition for the branches dying off
Are you talking about the “documentary” that openly bases itself on the misquote about not making the Novus Ordo offensive to protestants? Because that line was literally about one prayer in the Easter vigil. Then it said a lot left the Catholic Church for evangelical denominations. But why would they? Why would someone leave the Church if they knew that is where Jesus is? Only if they didn’t understand their faith does this make sense.
We don’t like it because it’s oldest. We like it because it is the mass of ages and the liturgy is superior. We do t think we as attendees are superior. Stop lying about us and gaslighting us. You’re supposed to be up r brothers and sisters in Christ.
St. Thomas Aquinas is a great example of this Chestertonian idea as he drew from the Fathers and Jewish thinker Moses Maimonides, Al Ghazali and Plato along with Aristotle.
Great, he loved paganism and the anti-Christian Maimonides then. Sounds reliable.
I'm a Traditionalist in the sense that I hold to the living church before Vatican ll.
So a schismatic? In which way are you any better than orthodox?
3:39 nah, democracy is the god that failed
Great show, Brian.
Greek isn't more traditional than Latin.
The starting point of tradition is an apostle and the Latin Roman rite comes from St. Peter and St. Paul.
It comes from the very beginning.
Hebrew is more traditional than both. Then again, all three languages were represented on the Cross
@@JonCrs10I read somewhere liturgy in Rome was also in Greek up until a time. But I am not sure. I don't remember it well
The worship of modernity is a big contributor to the Church’s decline, both Catholic and Protestant.
Tradition vs Moderism/False Tradition/Progessive/LAZY.
There is only one who is Catholic and one who is not.
I think the past couple decades of the church has been plagued by overcorrections. I will quickly note that when we refer to Tradition in the context of the three pillars of the church we are just referring to Apostolic Tradition or the teachings of the Apostles. (I am sure Brian knows this, just wanted to make sure everyone else knew that because it could easily be confused how it was worded in the video) And Apostolic Tradition has little to no barring on the current liturgy wars. But it is true we as Catholics should respect our other traditions (sometimes referred to as little t traditions) but they are not infallible and can be developed and reformed as needed and dictated by the magisterium. Now, as I was saying about overcorrections. An example would be traditions, it is true that some in the church have recklessly disregard tradition but some have overreacted to this by holding on to traditions of men to the point of disobedience to the First See and seeing violations of tradition everywhere even when it is legitimate development and reform. Some even go as far to arrogantly think themselves worthy to judge the See of Rome. Or the liturgy wars were Vatican II saw that the liturgy needed to be simplified slightly and slightly increase the use of the vernacular for the sake of the faithful. This was overcorrected by totally eliminating Latin and oversimplifying against the instructions of the Roman Missal. However, have traditionalists have overcorrected from that by saying that Novus Ordo masses are invalid or that we all should revert back to the Missal of 62. Same with the scholastic vs Patristic thing. The church realized we need to have a revival of the patristics especially some of the newly rediscovered writings. But this was overcorrected to the detriment of the scholastic tradition. We need to, as Aristotle taught find the mean.
If the pope kisses the Quran be sure I will judge him. All the way
1:06 Well technically, heresies are also very old. Councils were made in the early church to address them.
I don't like the democracy analogy, but its message about incorporating the lives of all who lived across time I do.
The Last Days of The Church Period
We are in the last days of The Church period. Once the rapture of The Church occurs, then the professing Church will be left behind - and the world will experience, THE DAY OF THE LORD!
Those who heard the Gospel of The Grace of God and rejected it --- it does not look good for them for God himself who at this time wants them saved, but at that time will become their enemy. The Apostle Paul explains this in the epistle of 2Thessalonians.
What's happening now is that many professed believers who are supposedly in The Church are falling away - they are admittedly saying they don't believe in God, Church, or Religion. They, many of them were just professed believers only.
During The 70th Week (AKA: The Tribulation Period) many of the mockers will meet their fate - it's really sad, but true.
Right now these non-believers, especially from the left want to talk about justice and things like that, but they go absolutely against God's Word - and say Christians are racists and hateful and are hazardous to the world.
Also, the 70th Week of Daniel 9:24-27 is where we get The 70th Week. This will start as soon as Israel signs that deal with The Beast. It is very near.
The Children of Israel will seek after God, but during this 70th Week, two-thirds of them will be cut off - and the one-third will go Through The Fire - as mentioned by The Prophet Zechariah in 13...
Zechariah 13:8,9
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
This is when The Children of Israel will enter The Messianic Kingdom on Earth and fulfillment of Isaiah 9 will occur...
Isaiah 9:6,7 The Mighty God and Everlasting Father
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Part of this prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus of Nazareth was born and served during his Earthly Ministry, but the rest will occur at the Messianic Kingdom.
This is when The Prophecy of Ezekiel 47 and 48 will be fulfilled when Israel will get their inheritance in that Promised Land. This will occur.
Meanwhile there will be no peace in the Land of Israel until they sign that Covenant with The Beast. They will at that time have a peace for 3 1/2 years, but they will be set up - and that is what Jesus of Nazareth was talking about in Matthew 24 about the last generation.
Now is the time to believe. We are still in the Period of The Church which happens to be the simplest time to be saved. Once the Rapture of The Church occurs... things will be VERY DIFFERENT!
I feel like you quickly went through the fact that the latin mass is older than the 16th Century. From my understanding it was codified in 1570, The tridentine mass at least. Maybe you can do an entire video about its history. I know it wasn't your focus for this video but I feel like a lot of us could really use a good explanation on its history and you create GREAT videos! Thanks for all you do.
You can't be a traditionalist without reading René Guénon.
Interesting thoughts! I like it. Thank you 😊
Benedict XVI hated Thomas Aquinas and scholasticism. Because he was a Modernist.
Thank you for your work. And now I come with the most trivial, if not disrespectful, question : where do you buy your clothes ? I'm looking to buy durable clothes and yours seem to be it.
I have a more serious question brewing, but it' still blurry yet. God bless you.
The “Tradition” that we are tradere, handing on, is Jesus, his teachings, his Truth.
Small t traditions are cultural practices.
Does Chesterton really not understand why one would feel that democracy is incompatible with traditionalism?
My thought is that Democracy is heavily linked with the French Revolution and its ideals, one of which is that of the "Free Thinker." I think the French Revolution is bundled up with this idea that mankind has always been enslaved in his mind to some kind of perceived higher power - God, the gods, Monarchs, Emperors, Clergymen, Patriarchs, etc. but that now, with science, with the "light of reason," man can, for the first time in human history, chart a new course for himself.
Using Democracy, to vote in a way that's piously faithful to one's ancestors, kind of misses the point.
The freedom that's been granted to you, has not been used to venture out into uncharted waters, but instead, to stay in the lakes that one's grandfathers knew. Such voting is democratic, but it seems to lack the spirit. (Rejecting the spirit of the French Revolution, is of course, a good thing!)
Over your left shoulder, what is that lamp called?
I don't know. I haven't given it a name yet. Gerald maybe? At any rate, you can find it here: www.etsy.com/ca/listing/1705072306/diy-wooden-gothic-lantern-hanging-lamp
@@BrianHoldsworth lol. Thanks for the link.
Almost always when the topic of tradition comes up online it usually gravitates to and is falsely summed up with those saying Vatican II + Novus Ordo = bad (modernism within the church), with of course the Latin mass being the remedy for all that ails the church. If not explicitly stated such is heavily implied. The church by the way doesn't have a problem with the latin mass (and I don't know of anyone that "hates" the latin mass) but I know of many who hate anything but the latin mass. No matter what form I may prefer for a mass, even if the magisterium all of a sudden was to say I couldn't celebrate mass in the way I have done for years and may prefer, I would accept that, stay on the Arc of Peter, not promote schism or set up a parallel church to my liking.
Amen. Thank you, Brian.
The Catholic Church is Traditional. Every Catholic should be Traditional. True Traditional Catholics simply reject Modernist ideas introduced to the Faithful which includes the NO Mass. I prefer the identity of a Devout Catholic. A devout Catholic will not adhere to this Mass or other Modernist ideas.
First of all, no one said that Latin was more traditional. Neither is it the of time a particular language is used at Mass is what makes it traditional.
Latin is the “ritual language of the holy Catholic ROMAN Catholic Chuurch . It is important for that reason . And it remains so because it adds to the sanctity of the ritual, the mass is-a “Ritual” sacrifice of Christ on the cross until the moment of the transubstantiation when he actually takes residence in the host, body blood soul” and divinity .
The problem with the vernacular is it doesn’t feel nor confer “the sacred” It looks like a cooking demonstration as Joseph Campbell put it also the vernacular has too many tawdry associations
to it . The change in the language has also been the impetus for some of the ridiculous events that happen at masses around the world.
We need a return to the ritual language if not the entire Tridentine rite as soon as possible.
That's really odd that your first homily you heard was bashing the Latin Mass... I've never heard it brought up in all my years of being Catholic. It's a very small minority of Masses (probably a fraction of 1%), and those few Masses are now being limited by the hierarchy, mostly because a lot of "trads" spend their time bashing instead of building the Church so they're seen as an enemy by some bishops. The lay people though probably are not even aware it still even exists.
On your points about Nouvelle Theologie vs Scholasticism, I think you're looking at Scholasticism as the real synthesis across time (taking into account the early fathers as well as the best thinking up to that time) but fail to see that Nouvelle Theologie was a synthesis of early fathers, scholasticism, AND a ton of new insights from science, world wars, human rights efforts, Biblical scholarship etc. Each generation should do its best to synthesis the new and old to get as close as we can to the full truth. Taking Aquinas or Augustine as gospel now would be kind of ridiculous based on what we know. They were very important, but they were not the final stage. The development of doctrine always moves us closer to understanding reality as the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, as John 16 says. Humbly following the magisterium of the bishops, who are given this task of reconciling past to present, is hard. But antiquarian LARPing only divides us, maybe just as much as the progressive wing of the Church, who also don't accept the magisterium but for opposite reasons.
Me, wearing a tunic, growing a beard, and only attending masses in Aramaic using a whole loaf of unleavened bread: “I’m not much of a frequenter of any of these newfangled liturgies in Latin or the local dialect”
Was the thumbnail changed to remove Fr Martin and put Taylor Marshall in his place?
The church is not about "old vs new" is about the forbidden and the permitted.
More like the real pursuit of holiness vs. the justification and glorification of sin.
I'm at a loss how many people, including Brian are both swallowing and propagating the narrative that it is people like this priest of the N.O. who are being divisive by feeling superior about the Mass they celebrate/attend, when the fact is that it is the traditionalists who normally engage in such behavior.
For one thing, Novus Ordo faithful are typically ignorant of the Mass wars and are content with what they have. Trads, on the other hand, know something about the history of the Mass and the changes of the Second Vatican Council. They are the ones who typically express a preference to one form of the Mass, namely the Tridentine, and in some cases take this too far in displaying contempt for the Novus Ordo.
Just wait. Even under this video or even this very comment, they will appear to start throwing insults at the Novus Ordo.
So it's disingenuous for people to claim that it is the Novus Ordo people who attack or ridicule trads, or that trads just want to celebrate the Tridentine rite but are being persecuted.
That's nonsense.
Pretty standard behavior. Push, push, push, then when they push back you tell the world “hey look at this violent savage. This is why we must defend ourselves”. Then push, push, push, and repeat
So here you are, throwing insults. Disingenuous.
@@Mar--Mar can you point to one insult?
Just one.
for me its like choosing between the lesser of two evils. On one hand, in the NO, you have irreverence and ignorance, which is easy soil for the growth of heresy, and in the Trad, you have pride and a cult like mentality as well as an infection of puritanism. But what makes one worse than the other for me is the mass itself. one shows proper reverence for Christ and representation for what the mass is, while the other, even when trying its hardest, is at best a misfit container for what the mass itself is. Even in reverent NO masses: they're too short, interrupted by the sign of peace, and the Eucharist is being handled by non-priests with unconsecrated hands.
This is not the priest's logic.
It's the traditionalists' own logic, which he's demonstrating to be false.
If you think that's not traditionalism, well, that's the case most trads make and we run with it.
Very good teaching.
From an FSSP parishioner: That is actually a funny statement to say: Those Trads are not traditional enough with their Latin Mass. Let's go a greek, hebrew or slavonic one :D
It's a type of argument I've seen in a variety of circumstances: You can't achieve a truly pure version of what you're looking for (according to my interpretation) so just give it up now. Erroneous on two counts: First, we aren't antiquarian, and second, even if antiquarianism were correct, why should anyone give up on something better, just because it isn't perfect?
I don't prefer the TLM because it's old. I prefer it because it's reverent and beautiful. I grew up in the post-V2 church. I simply never connected with the practices of the Novus Ordo the way I did with the TLM. That's it. I don't feel smug or superior about my choice. I just happen to find goodness, truth, and beauty in abundance in the TLM. That's not to say a NO Mass can't be done well, but in my experience they're the exception rather than the rule. And because the NO was a contrivance, it inherently opens itself to abuse and irreverence. The TLM, in contrast, is pretty much done one way and one way only. There's something to be said for that. If we're going to change something, then let it be because it actually needs to change, not merely for the sake of change itself. Those who manufactured the NO seem to have done it as a concession to the age, and not because anything urgently needed to change. It's the same mindset that gives us wokified updates of old Hollywood classics on the basis that they needed to be "updated for modern audiences."
The problem is when they claim to be "traditionalists" but ignore one of the most ancient Traditions, fidelity to the living Magisterium.
Bingo.
This is the elephant in the room of modern Traditionalism. Suspicion or rejection of the living Magisterium, especially concerning Vatican II and its reforms, has become an increasingly dominant theme of the movement. For this reason, Catholics should be more cautious about identifying themselves with it or calling themselves Traditionalists. False ideological Traditionalism is absorbing the Traditional Catholic movement in the same way the scxual revolutionaries came to possess the feminist movement.
Latin mass
Recieve on the tongue and kneel
No extra "ordinary ministers"
No lay people "participating" in mass
Well the irony of that priests argument is assuming that simply living in the modern world and being a modernist equates to the same thing. 🙃 Is it just me.
It’s just like RCIA; they’ll say it’s how the early Church did it to attract traditionalists, but it is in no way organic.
Don't you undertand that Latin is one of the sacred languages? The church in Rome spoke latin and if we believe that our first pope was Peter we should follow the traditional mass in latin, but if you want it in your language ok but at least use the old liturgy not novus ordo.
The church is in trouble from Germany to the USA. I pray for you 🙏🏻 from the bottom of my heart from Peru
Sure you do
This is exactly what my Melkite pastor loves to say all the time. Want to be traditional?? Be Greek!! 😂
Brian, the Nouvelle théologie theologians were not averse to Aquinas or the Middle Ages but to the NEO-scholastic approach which (they argued) was insufficiently catholic. You only have to read de Lubac or von Balthasar to know the high esteem in which they held Aquinas and Bonaventure, for example.
Wrong, both are wrong. The latin mass is much older than that, but each pope added to it, we cannot know for certain how old is it.
The latin mass was the mass of the surroundings of Rome and was taken to combat "protestant influences" in other territories.
Do not say it was "invented" at Trent for it's false.
But here you are with lot of old things and style in your background and channel
I’m disappointed with this video. It appears that Brian does not understand the quite varied views within the unhelpful term “Nouvelle Théologie,” and-even worse-misrepresents the best thinkers labeled (against their will) with that appellation: the ressourcement crowd. They weren’t against the high scholastics at all. One of de Lubac’s major contributions was a multivolume work on medieval exegesis (to recover it in the face of liberal progressive scholarship). Even his work on nature & grace intended a correction to misunderstandings of Thomas’s thought. Ratzinger worked deeply on St. Bonaventure. They took issue with NEO-Scholasticism that focused so heavily on one strand of one commentatorial tradition of one Scholastic and lost direct contact with the study of Sacred Scripture and the Fathers in favor of more recent commentators almost exclusively. And it wasn’t the ressourcement/nouvelle guys who were rejecting Scotus: it was the neo-Thomists! The ressourcement movement was in favor of studying more scholastics. It’s quite ironic that at the end he says its wrong to take the worst examples of a group and act like they are representative of the whole. It was the ressourcement group that was advocating for the whole tradition and not only one subset to have a voice, even if the latter also has a right to a voice.
Fantastic comment- I was thinking about this when he said nouvelle theologie - it's just too broad a brush.
@@gregoryross1693 Yeah and to conflate them with antiquarianism is just absurd.
You’ve taken the words right out of my mouth. I know Brian is a good guy, but dang, this video is really disappointing.
Excellent response, perhaps Brian would discuss this with you Dr DeClue and discover a broader and true understanding.
I suppose you would also sneer at Garrigou-Lagrange's understanding of the “Nouvelle Théologie” as well.
What is the whole Catholic tradition and which communities honor it?
Brian will you be open to have a conversation with Erick Ybarra?
Standing on the shoulders of others and claiming to be the sole proprietors of knowledge!
What is so "Novel" about that?
the catholic patriarchy of Rome in other words the latin rite should definitely be said in LATIN. I would not mind the catholic patriarchy of jerusalem to be said in hebrew. just like the byzantine rite should be said in greek. SIMPLE AS THAT KEEP THE ROMAN RITE LATIN ONLY
That was a bunch of words.
That first bit on Latin makes little sense to me. When I was in the Protestant world the Cross's label was a bit of a problem for me. Why was it labeled in Hebrew, Greek AND Latin? Latin was the language of Rome. It is also the language of the Vulgate, which for much of Church history was the Bible as far any anyone was concerned. It was/is the Catholic Bible. Latin goes all the way back to the Cross and seems to tie all three of these languages together in a special prophetic way. So, that argument makes little sense to me.
Yes, but even the Vulgate is but one of many translations. Scripture was originally written in Greek for the New Testament and Hebrew for the Old (with some passages in Aramaic, e.g. Daniel).
@@ХристоМартунковграфЛозенски How many of those translations were used by how many people? Over what period of time? During that time by what percentage of the Christians?
This video is great !!!! Fot the normal run of the mill person a bunch of pretty words and didn't understand anything meaningful . But, just to be fair, all the arguments for TLM or NO are null. In the majority of cases you cannot chose the mass , we get NO because of the situation the churches are in , there is no way of choosing tradition or not . We have to be grateful for what we have available . And thank God there are still priests in our area, we have gone down from 10 priest to 2. Confessions are also limited .
"Tradition" doesn't refer specifically to the Mass, but to the Divine Revelation, handed down from the Apostles, that is found in the Mass, in the missal, lectionary, rubrics, and calendar. It is also found in music, art, architecture, the writings of the Church Fathers, and anywhere else that the authentic teaching of the Apostles can be found. You can choose Tradition, because you can choose to seek out that teaching, through those things, in the clearest and richest forms you can find. That's not just going to Mass, it's also reading (you can find and read the old lectionary for free online. And those of other Rites too.) You can read the Fathers, the Saints. You can find images of sacred art on museum websites, or go visit in person. You can play traditional sacred music on youtube, learn traditional chants, practice traditional feasts and fasts and prayer.
While it is unfortunate that the TLM itself is not available to you, that is hardly the totality of Tradition to be found, because the Mass is not the totality of the spiritual life.
@@duathellto1460 all of that is wonderful . I live in an area where we are lucky to have mass, if not, a deacon comes and celebrates a Liturgy of the Word. The "tradition" where I live is basically what is passed on by the older generation , nobody here even comes near to speaking about Latin masses or arguing about the missal . None of that has any relevance in our Catholic celebrations . Besides all you are telling me is to look at the HISTORY of the church.
@@miguelsemidei7619 Tradition is not just history. It contains things that are true now, and therefore relevant now, and therefore life-giving, now. It contains things that you can *do*, and not just learn about, as I mentioned learning chants, practicing traditional feasts and fasts and prayer. Actual practices, I agree study alone isn't enough.
There are 5 pillars of the spiritual life: prayer, fasting, almsgiving, study, and Sacraments. Only one of those, Sacraments, is something that you cannot control (and even there you still have your Baptism, which is all that generations of persecuted Japanese Catholics had, and nearly all St. Mary of Egypt had). It is the 21st century, and you don't have to rely strictly on the older generation around you to pass on the Faith of our fathers. And no Catholic ever had to passively accept the available Eucharistic celebrations as the entirety of living out the Faith of our fathers. Even if you had Mass every week, if you never prayed, your spiritual life would stink, yes? Like a relationship between husband and wife would stink if they ignored each other except for one hour a week. So you can incorporate Tradition into all of your spiritual life that takes place for the 111 waking hours of the week that aren't spent at church on Sunday. That's hardly irrelevant.
I'm not telling you anything that most traditionalists haven't thought through, due to closures of TLMs. This is the practical plan. Traditional Catholicism is a lifestyle, not just a Sunday Mass thing, therefore it continues, even without a TLM, or any Mass on Sunday. Frankly, I think it's far worse if (perhaps you do not think this) a person thinks of Catholicism as being totally contained in the Sunday Mass/service, than that you can't get to a TLM. A right relationship with Jesus cannot be so constrained.
@@duathellto1460 you just don't get it . A tradition is something you do because it was passed on to you . Like ornaments for the tree or thanksgiving at grandmas. Church traditions vary from country to country , when was the last time you helped carry a 2000 pound statue of St Blas , which is a tradition in Spain . Tradition is according to what has been passed on to YOU which you in turn teach your children .
@@miguelsemidei7619 That is one definition of tradition, although one can always look up grandma's traditions, or great-grandma's, or start your own. There are some second or third generation immigrants who get interested in their heritage and work at reviving their customs for their children.
That is not the only definition of tradition. Capital T Tradition is one of the three sources of Catholic teaching regarding Divine Revelation, along with Scripture and Magisterium. It specifically refers to what has been passed on from the Apostles, regardless of the intervening path (converts generally don't get it from their parents). They taught the truth, and anyone who teaches what they taught, teaches the truth, while anyone (even your immediate elders) who teach something different, is teaching falsehoods. This much can be found in virtually any catechism.
Excellent! Very insightful 🎉❤!
I was just talking about all of this two nights ago with my wife’s 89 year old grandpa, born in 1935… a very devout and faithful catholic.
As ‘Younger Catholics’ (those of us with no living memory of life pre Vatican 2) we NEED to listen to the last of our kin who actually lived this, I mean really lived it - not just those who attend the TLM but have no significant living memory of life pre-V2.
My wife’s grandfather was 27 years old in 1962, and his parents made him serve as an alter server at daily Mass until he was old enough to leave the house. Now, he’s never left the faith, and is a faithfully practicing Catholic, but he told me he HATED the Latin Mass because of how he never understood anything, even after being a lifelong alter boy, and the priest would get really mad at him for mispronouncing any of the words that only the alter boys had to say - the priests would rush through the prayers with little regard to ‘true worship’ like the modern day ‘traditionalists’ claim is the reason the TLM is so great…
By his own admission, he was not an academic and only went to grade 9 in school - but he was a very successful business man having started owning gas stations in the 50’s when it was classy, and involved getting dressed up to serve your customers and pump gas. He also built a plastics manufacturing plant and manufactured bottles for Coke, which he then sold, and he’s also made a lot of money trading stocks - He’s only read one actual book in his life after finishing school, but still LOVES to learn in his own way (by doing things) - yet, ALWAYS faithfully attending Mass. So he was the literal stereotype of the demographic of a truly faithful lay Catholic with whom the Latin Mass was completely ‘out of touch’ and intellectually inaccessible too (probably none of the people watching this video).
The lived experiences from all of the Catholics who I personally know who grew up with the rigidity and rules of life pre-V2 (and in my wife’s grandpa’s words “rules - and that’s all they were, rules.”) are drastically different than what devotees to the TLM claim today.
V2 was greatly welcomed by many people once they could understand the Mass - and actually be invited to participate and understand the entire Mass. Now, V2 did go too far in many, many ways, but it was done because of a genuine need to stop the abuses of the ‘Mass of the Ages’ - perhaps by enacting V2, it helped save the true dignity and worship that the TLM actually does have, when said the way it’s intended, but as the only liturgy mandated to the global church for many centuries, it did experience a lot of abuses, just as the NO Mass is famous for accomplishing.
I personally believe, a reintroduction of Latin into the NO done incrementally for small parts of the Mass, and in a way where people are actually being taught what they are saying and actively participating, as well as alter rails, communion on the tongue, ad orientum, the reintegration of more sacred music, longer mandatory fasting periods prior to communion, and encouraging people to be more respectful in their attire and towards one another during the sign of peace would go a long way towards reclaiming the dignity of the Mass, without alienating the laity in the same way that was the prevailing experience of the lay faithful of pre-1962… this same thing applies to my grandfather as well who was born in 1918 and died in 2009 - he attended regular Mass on the battlefields during WW2, and grew up as a cradle Catholic with only a grade 3 education, but was a voracious lifelong reader, and prayed with his Pieta prayer book daily for as long as I can remember him - and he knelt down and prayed the rosary every day when he baby sat me when I was very young… some very devout Catholics welcomed the switch to the vernacular.
We would all be wise to remember these people as we discuss these topics going forward, and as a very wise priest once told my wife and I (in 2011) regarding world peace; “When we no longer remember the pains of war, we will no longer have peace.” I think we are there in so many ways, and this ‘Us vs. Them’ bickering about what Mass is better is proof of the lived memory which we’ve collectively lost.
We need to move forward and acknowledge that there have been many grievous abuses as a result of Vatican 2, but also that for most common people, the TLM was also abused and out of touch, but an integration of the best parts of all of our history could be harmonized moving forward - we don’t need to live in the past, but we do definitely need to remember it.
I appreciate your comment. Thank you. It’s sound and seems like the most realistic.
What's that lovely music playing at the end? And, for that matter, at the beginning? You should give credit for the music in the video descriptions. Unless it is your own music and you're just being modest.
Paul Jernberg
Thanks!
Well put sir!
The statement by the priest that says traditional Catholics should use Greek not Latin is ignorant and false. The traditional Mass and liturgy does use Greek...the kyrie is is Greek. Also the traditionsl Easter liturgy includes Greek. In addition Greek and Latin have many words and grammar they share because these were absorbed into Latin. The West of Europe used Latin for government administration. The East did too but Greek and other languages such as Aramaic were used. The apostles were multi lingual as was Jesus. How then did he communicate with Pontius Pilate who would have only spoken Latin. The West's unifying language was Latin. The East Greek.
Sorry but Pilate probably spoke Greek too. Due to the massive possessions of the Romans in the East they probably took Koinè Greek as a form of lingua franca. Latin in the East was a very niche thing and in general it would be easier to make emissaries and governors of Rome learn Greek than it would be to force the native population to learn Latin while Greek was perfectly available. This is also probably why the New Testament is in Greek, even the parts tradition tell us were written in Rome. Now whether Jesus actually spoke Latin it is a much harder to topic, but I'll take a guess and say he only knew a handful of words.
Well, the Novus Ordo is going to survive. You need priests that say the Mass and all the NO priests took the 💉. So sad 😢