Very fair comments Chris. My Tormach lathe and mill have served me very well; low cost and low maintenance, but the issues you bring up are valid. Good for people to know what they are getting into before purchasing any particular brand. Ave's commentary on his Haas also is excellent to know the pros and cons.
My 770 makes me money doing side job work. It has been absolutely great. You can't buy a HAAS and then have it set there not running for a few days while you take care of other life issues. With investments like that you have to start worrying about spindle time. You either use it, or you don't make money. A Tormach 770 can be purchased as a personal tool. The controls are excellent for manual work as well as producing parts. So I can do the custom work I do easily. I can either modify an existing part, or make a replacement part, as needed. Automated machining or manual control. They have their place. If I was going to start doing runs of hundreds of parts and do them regularly? I'd buy a small HAAS, or a Brother... something with at least 10x the weight and horsepower. But do you DO that kind of work? A dozen good custom jobs and the 770 core mill is paid off. I didn't take out a loan the Tormach was paid cash. No payments. Spindles can be installed yourself without a service call. Even if you stretch really, really hard to get into a small $35k HAAS mini mill how much will maintenance cost? How much more will tooling cost? Do you need big power run to your garage or shop? Do you need a new concrete pad poured under the machine? How much will the shipping and rigger cost to deliver and position the machine? It goes on and on... The Tormach? Shipping is now included in the price when you buy. You can move it with a pallet jack. You can put it up on the stand or your work bench with an engine hoist. Pretty much free compared to the other options. The difference? It's light, it's slow, but it's cheap to own and gets jobs done that you would not want to do or just cannot do on a manual mill. I make mostly titanium parts on my 770. It gets it done and I never have to think about issues like efficient use of spindle time.
I've had my Tormach for about 7 months and have the exact same thoughts. Although I haven't had any leaks except for the giant 1" hole in the base where the coolant hose comes through. I'm making a plug with an o-ring to seat between the hose and base to eliminate that. Otherwise, I'm a happy camper.
I upgraded my coolant hose to a regular garden hose which is ALMOST the right size to plug that hole. I ended up wrapping a strip of thin rubber around the hose at that point and jamming it into the hole which seems to have plugged it quite well. :D
I've had several suboptimal experiences while buying used machines. I'm 0 for 3 on successfully purchasing an old machine that runs and stays running. Fortunately I have been able to part them out to make more money than I spent on them, but if you count the endless hours I've spent crawling around greasy machine cabinets with a multimeter I've run a huge loss. My advice for small startup manufacturers is buy new cnc only. Old manual machines can be had that work great, but old cnc is usually a disaster. If you can't get by with manual machines, consider having somebody else make your parts for you until you've got the business case to buy your own cnc equipment.
i bought a 1996 Femco Lathe, Fanuc control. 1600 bucks. Runs like a goddamn champ for the past 3 or so years now. There is a difference between old machines and wore out neglected machines. If the control cabinet is a greasy mess, thats sign #1 to stay the fuck away. It should be hospital clean in there.
My Lagun mill just stopped taking user input the other month. It works here and there but frequently will just stop mid-job. I'm glad I don't use it for much other than a drill press these days.
It's a hard bet on used machines... If you know what to look for you can score a jem! I have two Fadal 4020HTs one Fadal VMC15 and one Okuma LNC8. All of them have been absolute champs and have made what I spent on them back in as little as a couple months.
Haas machines are kinda meh imo. Ran a couple Milltronics machines a while back, made me realize that there machines out there that give a shit about UX
I know what you mean brother. I have the 770 first,then later i got a haas mini mill. there is no comparison at all. I now just look at the 770..its pretty as it sit there i run it to oil once in a while but IT HAS NO BALLS AND NO TOOL CHANGER...
Honestly, this is going to sound weird but you are just very interesting to listen too. I would very happily listen to you talk about different kinds of barks on trees in the amazon rain forest.
The pin isn't necessary. I've got a BP with the pin removed, it tightens and loosens just fine. If you have the auto-drawbar, it's a moot point on the Tormach. Next time it shears, remove the carnage and truck on without it.
EFormance Engineering I have to agree with you there, my pin went awol years ago and I certainly will not lose any sleep over having to replace it, maybe if I have to replace the bearings but perhaps not even then.
I thought the idea was if the collet slips in the taper it would loosen from the drawbar and then things get scary. I know it shouldn't ever slip in the taper (and maybe couldn't with the spindle HP) but idk...
@@ChrisDePrisco Nah, The pin is just a locator, it doesn't take any torque (as you found out). The tool should slip in the collet. In extreme cases the collet will slip in the spindle, that's why they have BT30 spindles that replace R8 spindles, so you have drive keys. The pin is more trouble than it's worth and make setup more difficult if you swap tools a lot (the slot is not uniform in all tooling).
I have a 770 S3 in a basement shop and agree. Use Nashua black plumbers tape/wrap from HD on seams. Holds up well to coolant so far (3 months). Black, stretchy and about 75mm width. Also starting to use high feed cutters as possible solution to deflection since they produce a more axial force and less lateral. Bought DiJet 3 tooth 0.5" and Kyocera Raptor mini 5 tooth 1.0" to use on 420PH mold cavity inserts. Promising so far.
Interesting not an owner of a Tormach or a HAAS these are interesting machines, they both get the job done. Be proud it is making you money so it is an option afforded you. Smart man not moving out of your garage $$$$$ this will keep your overhead down we work from home but we used to be in a really big building. Have fun.
As for your tolerance problems, did you follow the instructions for making sure everything is calibrated? For example, adding the 4th axis to this machine comes with specific instructions on centering the platter, because much of the machine itself needs to be calibrated physically, especially after it’s been shipped. And why is your machine crashing when it has crash sensors? Is this an older machine or something, it sounds like you’re either missing certain parts or it’s just human error. I’ve been within half thousandths tolerances as long as I’m not trying to set speeds higher than it’s rated for, what’s the purpose of having a 3 phase machine if you’re just prototyping, because the 1100mx is plenty capable of making aerospace quality parts, as long as you thoroughly followed all the instructions, and you don’t try setting everything at maximum speeds, and get the automatic tool changer, etc, there’s no reason it should take hours to make a part, especially with the insanely easy to use software. I guess if you don’t know how to quickly design parts, that could eat up some time, also depending on your fixturing, and part sizes, you can make several parts at once
Cut a hole and reframe that part of garage...unless there is a room above. 5/8 thick sheetrock and one ceiling joist stopping way to many in there tracks it seams like.
What horse power is your new flood coolant? I have started with a small mill like yours (not Tormach) and I have seen ALL and I mean all the issues you ahve gone through. Except fro the collet holding I have an BT30 taper. However there is so much in what you have said that no one will understand till they try to do it as well. I subed because of this video. Thank you for making it.
Various job shop parts for people but a lot of computer keyboard parts lately. orangeworksdesign.com (job shop projects) and zaprisco.com (titanium keyboard keys I've started making)
I've always been partial to Speedio, mostly for hearing mostly negative things about FANUC controllers - but I've not seriously looked into the differences yet.
It's just some random "shallow well jet pump" from the local home improvement store. 1HP but they have many sizes you could go with. I think 1HP is plenty. The well pumps are meant for pressurizing the tank in your house so you get lots of pressure. The 1HP sump pumps and utility pumps are cheaper but they move more water with much less pressure.
I can relate to your Laguna troubles. We bought a Laguna CNC plasma table at school and have had an absolutely terrible experience. The controller is in badly translated English, and some of the information we received from the company regarding settings has just been flat out incorrect. Service has been slow and not really helpful, even for a new machine. Definitely experiencing buyer's remorse. Would not recommend.
In regards to your Anilam controller and the x axis runaway. It’s the x axis jog key sticking. I had the same issue with one of mine. Keypad can be found on eBay fairly reasonable.
With just the right mix of a small number of products you make, just yourself working, and a small number of tools needed at any given time you may be able to be more productive with two Tormachs but I'd say that is an extremely rare case. The Haas will be much more productive in a job shop environment or any more "general purpose" shop because it's going to be a lot faster and with more tools available in the tool changer. At least that's my opinion having never had a Haas or other "real" VMC.
@@ChrisDePrisco : Thanks Chris, my comment was very much "tongue in cheek". You are on a different planet to me... I've never had a VMC of any sort! One thing I do know for certain; if you complete a project using tools and equipment you love using, you will have much greater enthusiasm when the next project arrives. "The pleasure of a cheap price is far outweighed by the pain of a shoddy product" (Not sure if that applies, but I always wanted to use it somewhere!) :o) Love your work.
He told you exactly why in very specific terms why he is using it. I have only one question for you. Have you ever purchased, out of your own private funds, a machining centre that at the level you would not call junk?
Yes i have. And i still stand on my point of not buying Chinese shit. Tormach makes shit machines and has no rep as far as im concerned. If you're butt hurt and want to suck off that shit company go right ahead ive said my peace.
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Well, what do you think "flood" coolant means? It's designed for flooding your shop :)
It's not a bug, it's a feature™
Supposed to be installed in a retention pond. The cabinet serves as a chip filter. That way you can run the pump direct from the pond.
@@ShainAndrews
Whoosh..
Ha! I've thought about just putting the machine in a kiddie pool and pumping from that...
@@afrog2666 Whoosh...
Very fair comments Chris. My Tormach lathe and mill have served me very well; low cost and low maintenance, but the issues you bring up are valid. Good for people to know what they are getting into before purchasing any particular brand. Ave's commentary on his Haas also is excellent to know the pros and cons.
My 770 makes me money doing side job work. It has been absolutely great. You can't buy a HAAS and then have it set there not running for a few days while you take care of other life issues. With investments like that you have to start worrying about spindle time. You either use it, or you don't make money. A Tormach 770 can be purchased as a personal tool. The controls are excellent for manual work as well as producing parts. So I can do the custom work I do easily. I can either modify an existing part, or make a replacement part, as needed. Automated machining or manual control. They have their place. If I was going to start doing runs of hundreds of parts and do them regularly? I'd buy a small HAAS, or a Brother... something with at least 10x the weight and horsepower. But do you DO that kind of work? A dozen good custom jobs and the 770 core mill is paid off. I didn't take out a loan the Tormach was paid cash. No payments. Spindles can be installed yourself without a service call. Even if you stretch really, really hard to get into a small $35k HAAS mini mill how much will maintenance cost? How much more will tooling cost? Do you need big power run to your garage or shop? Do you need a new concrete pad poured under the machine? How much will the shipping and rigger cost to deliver and position the machine? It goes on and on... The Tormach? Shipping is now included in the price when you buy. You can move it with a pallet jack. You can put it up on the stand or your work bench with an engine hoist. Pretty much free compared to the other options. The difference? It's light, it's slow, but it's cheap to own and gets jobs done that you would not want to do or just cannot do on a manual mill. I make mostly titanium parts on my 770. It gets it done and I never have to think about issues like efficient use of spindle time.
Well said
Exactly same experience with my 770
I've had my Tormach for about 7 months and have the exact same thoughts. Although I haven't had any leaks except for the giant 1" hole in the base where the coolant hose comes through. I'm making a plug with an o-ring to seat between the hose and base to eliminate that. Otherwise, I'm a happy camper.
I upgraded my coolant hose to a regular garden hose which is ALMOST the right size to plug that hole. I ended up wrapping a strip of thin rubber around the hose at that point and jamming it into the hole which seems to have plugged it quite well. :D
I've had several suboptimal experiences while buying used machines. I'm 0 for 3 on successfully purchasing an old machine that runs and stays running. Fortunately I have been able to part them out to make more money than I spent on them, but if you count the endless hours I've spent crawling around greasy machine cabinets with a multimeter I've run a huge loss. My advice for small startup manufacturers is buy new cnc only. Old manual machines can be had that work great, but old cnc is usually a disaster. If you can't get by with manual machines, consider having somebody else make your parts for you until you've got the business case to buy your own cnc equipment.
i bought a 1996 Femco Lathe, Fanuc control. 1600 bucks. Runs like a goddamn champ for the past 3 or so years now. There is a difference between old machines and wore out neglected machines. If the control cabinet is a greasy mess, thats sign #1 to stay the fuck away. It should be hospital clean in there.
My Lagun mill just stopped taking user input the other month. It works here and there but frequently will just stop mid-job. I'm glad I don't use it for much other than a drill press these days.
Old CNC is the best, you rip out everything electrical and just retrofit LinuxCNC and enjoy.
It's a hard bet on used machines... If you know what to look for you can score a jem!
I have two Fadal 4020HTs one Fadal VMC15 and one Okuma LNC8.
All of them have been absolute champs and have made what I spent on them back in as little as a couple months.
Thanks for your thoughts on the machine! They were helpful.
Well hopefully that Tormach serves you well enough that you can get a new shop and then get that HAAS ;)
Haas machines are kinda meh imo. Ran a couple Milltronics machines a while back, made me realize that there machines out there that give a shit about UX
Very good review. Thanks for the info!
I know what you mean brother. I have the 770 first,then later i got a haas mini mill. there is no comparison at all. I now just look at the 770..its pretty as it sit there i run it to oil once in a while but IT HAS NO BALLS AND NO TOOL CHANGER...
Honestly, this is going to sound weird but you are just very interesting to listen too. I would very happily listen to you talk about different kinds of barks on trees in the amazon rain forest.
"Mine is nice and tight" - they all say this before you get to check it out :D
The pin isn't necessary. I've got a BP with the pin removed, it tightens and loosens just fine. If you have the auto-drawbar, it's a moot point on the Tormach. Next time it shears, remove the carnage and truck on without it.
EFormance Engineering I have to agree with you there, my pin went awol years ago and I certainly will not lose any sleep over having to replace it, maybe if I have to replace the bearings but perhaps not even then.
Yep. Same here
I thought the idea was if the collet slips in the taper it would loosen from the drawbar and then things get scary. I know it shouldn't ever slip in the taper (and maybe couldn't with the spindle HP) but idk...
@@ChrisDePrisco Nah, The pin is just a locator, it doesn't take any torque (as you found out). The tool should slip in the collet. In extreme cases the collet will slip in the spindle, that's why they have BT30 spindles that replace R8 spindles, so you have drive keys. The pin is more trouble than it's worth and make setup more difficult if you swap tools a lot (the slot is not uniform in all tooling).
Chris DePrisco it's late at night here so brain in half a sleep mode but if the collet slips won't the drawbar tighten?
Great video Chris. Fair and detailed. Cheers, Jason
I have a 770 S3 in a basement shop and agree. Use Nashua black plumbers tape/wrap from HD on seams. Holds up well to coolant so far (3 months). Black, stretchy and about 75mm width. Also starting to use high feed cutters as possible solution to deflection since they produce a more axial force and less lateral. Bought DiJet 3 tooth 0.5" and Kyocera Raptor mini 5 tooth 1.0" to use on 420PH mold cavity inserts. Promising so far.
Good to hear honest, and frank end-user feedback and review info. Anyone else get here from an AvE vidjayo??
New machines are shiny and nice!
Interesting not an owner of a Tormach or a HAAS these are interesting machines, they both get the job done. Be proud it is making you money so it is an option afforded you. Smart man not moving out of your garage $$$$$ this will keep your overhead down we work from home but we used to be in a really big building. Have fun.
As for your tolerance problems, did you follow the instructions for making sure everything is calibrated? For example, adding the 4th axis to this machine comes with specific instructions on centering the platter, because much of the machine itself needs to be calibrated physically, especially after it’s been shipped. And why is your machine crashing when it has crash sensors? Is this an older machine or something, it sounds like you’re either missing certain parts or it’s just human error. I’ve been within half thousandths tolerances as long as I’m not trying to set speeds higher than it’s rated for, what’s the purpose of having a 3 phase machine if you’re just prototyping, because the 1100mx is plenty capable of making aerospace quality parts, as long as you thoroughly followed all the instructions, and you don’t try setting everything at maximum speeds, and get the automatic tool changer, etc, there’s no reason it should take hours to make a part, especially with the insanely easy to use software. I guess if you don’t know how to quickly design parts, that could eat up some time, also depending on your fixturing, and part sizes, you can make several parts at once
a haas mini mill will fit wherever an 1100 will fit. they run off single phase. might want to revisit that one.
Not in my garage - at least not by the specs. According to them you need 106" minimum ceiling height; I have only 92" :(
Cut a hole and reframe that part of garage...unless there is a room above. 5/8 thick sheetrock and one ceiling joist stopping way to many in there tracks it seams like.
Thanks for your insights.
What horse power is your new flood coolant? I have started with a small mill like yours (not Tormach) and I have seen ALL and I mean all the issues you ahve gone through. Except fro the collet holding I have an BT30 taper. However there is so much in what you have said that no one will understand till they try to do it as well. I subed because of this video. Thank you for making it.
Thanks! It's just 1HP but it's a shallow well jet pump so it has much higher pressure than a normal 1HP pump like a sump pump or utility pump.
Great review. What kind of parts do you make? Do you have a website?
Various job shop parts for people but a lot of computer keyboard parts lately. orangeworksdesign.com (job shop projects) and zaprisco.com (titanium keyboard keys I've started making)
Chris DePrisco Ahh, I thought I recognised the orange logo. /r/mk represent!
Hi Chris,
Nice little review :) What's next in your dreams? Speedio or Robodrill :P ?
I've always been partial to Speedio, mostly for hearing mostly negative things about FANUC controllers - but I've not seriously looked into the differences yet.
oh coolant just has a way of breaking down and sneaking by seals, you can sand and whipe with alcohol beforehand, makes no difference xD been there
ChrisIf you ever do any maint. on the machine(GIB adjustment)specially will you film it? Thanks
I may. Hopefully will be upgrading to a bigger machine before it needs it though. :) (a guy can dream)
Hey Chris, nice vid, I been looking at getting a tormach, good machines If you on a tight budget. Do you still have your DIY VMC
I do! I use it all the time for wood, plastics; foam, etc.
Very well said, Chris!
what pump did you use to upgrade the coolant system? I have a 770 and completely agree that I get wet parts and no chip evacuation lol
It's just some random "shallow well jet pump" from the local home improvement store. 1HP but they have many sizes you could go with. I think 1HP is plenty. The well pumps are meant for pressurizing the tank in your house so you get lots of pressure. The 1HP sump pumps and utility pumps are cheaper but they move more water with much less pressure.
Useful, honest review. Thank you.
Very informative! Thank you!
Did you consider to buy an Syil x7 combo?
Always inspiring Chris
Next time the pin in the spindle breaks, just take it out and don't replace it.
anon absolutely right.
I can relate to your Laguna troubles. We bought a Laguna CNC plasma table at school and have had an absolutely terrible experience. The controller is in badly translated English, and some of the information we received from the company regarding settings has just been flat out incorrect. Service has been slow and not really helpful, even for a new machine. Definitely experiencing buyer's remorse. Would not recommend.
*translated.
@@NorthernContrarian Thank you. That was an ironic mistake on my part.
In regards to your Anilam controller and the x axis runaway. It’s the x axis jog key sticking. I had the same issue with one of mine. Keypad can be found on eBay fairly reasonable.
Devil's advocate... which would give you the most productivity for similar money: one Haas, or two Tormachs?
With just the right mix of a small number of products you make, just yourself working, and a small number of tools needed at any given time you may be able to be more productive with two Tormachs but I'd say that is an extremely rare case. The Haas will be much more productive in a job shop environment or any more "general purpose" shop because it's going to be a lot faster and with more tools available in the tool changer. At least that's my opinion having never had a Haas or other "real" VMC.
@@ChrisDePrisco : Thanks Chris, my comment was very much "tongue in cheek". You are on a different planet to me... I've never had a VMC of any sort! One thing I do know for certain; if you complete a project using tools and equipment you love using, you will have much greater enthusiasm when the next project arrives. "The pleasure of a cheap price is far outweighed by the pain of a shoddy product" (Not sure if that applies, but I always wanted to use it somewhere!) :o)
Love your work.
Great review. Thanks
Great vid. Thanks Chris.
Syil would be the middle ground between tormach and haas
Did I see a Planck enclosure!? RMK
Honest!
Syil will give you more machine at the same price, maybe even less money.
Stopped watching at "crashes will happen no matter how careful you are". Sorry, lost all credibility there.
Tormach is Chinese junk. Idk why you would even waste your time
He told you exactly why in very specific terms why he is using it. I have only one question for you. Have you ever purchased, out of your own private funds, a machining centre that at the level you would not call junk?
Yes i have. And i still stand on my point of not buying Chinese shit. Tormach makes shit machines and has no rep as far as im concerned. If you're butt hurt and want to suck off that shit company go right ahead ive said my peace.