Thank you for all of your work! The only 230 grain 45 acp I have seen consistently expand is the Federal HST...but your "real world" scenario was not used...I cannot remember if you have tested the HST in 45...
The thing that needs to be remembered is that gel is designed to be a repeatable medium to test bullets. It never was designed to replicate a human or animal. Even your fiber board is just used so it is repeatable for all cals. It makes no sense why your gel hates 230gr bullets when the same bullets do well in most other tests on the tube. Thanks for the video and the work that goes into it. I really enjoy and look forward to them
My gel doesn't hate it. Look at my last two videos where I tested .45 ACP, both 230 gr and they did expand. I don't think anything is at play here other than bad ammo.
@@GunSam I wasn't trying to infer anything just being a smartass cause I've seen quite a few not work but also have seen some work that other testers can't get to work. Sorry if I offended you
@@biggunshandguns3687 I see what you're saying about gel not proving everything about how ammo performs. And your right, it definitely doesn't replicate humans. Can't really simulate bones or cartilage. However, gel does usually give a reasonable idea of how a bullet may perform under near perfect circumstances. If a bullet can't even open up in a gel test, it's safe to say it most likely won't in a self defense shooting situation either. Better defensive rounds are out there...
The 10% ordinance gel is calibrated to duplicate the penetration in a dog's hind thigh meat, believe it or not. That's where the bb at 590 fps 3.4" penetration calibration actually comes from. Whether or not that calibration is reasonable/useful is a different question.
Many years ago i tried aluminum jacketed 185gr .45ACPs on a chunk of old telephone pole with a rotting core( not very technical). Both the heavier copper jacketed and aluminums expanded, but the aluminums easily doubled in diameter, leaving aluminum chips throughout the hole. The resulting wound would leave a perp on the operating table for hours, picking out bits. My 2¢.
Thanks for sharing, Sam. The practice by ammo companies of not loading 45 and other larger rounds to military spec is disturbing. Most of our law enforcement organizations in my area carry 40 S&W.
@@Me2Lancer Yes Sir Lord Weatherly. I would expect nothing less for a man of great sophistication and class to carry the mighty FNX 40. I too am a member of the FNX 40 Brethren. It's always great to see you among the various FNX and 40 cal. videos. God bless you and yours and Long Live Lord Weatherly!!!
great video As you say Sam about the manufacturers cutting back on everything except the 9mm I have also noticed that in the 40s&w that I'm a big fan of. I'm glad I cast and load my own or before long I might be SOL
I bought some GS bonded .45 and Sig V-Crown last year when ammo was harder to find. I wanted HSTs or Gold Dot but couldn’t find it anywhere (and still hard to find). I bought the 185 and 200g loads vs the 230s expressly because the 230s have done so poorly in your tests in these loads and most others. Hope the lighter bullet loads do better in this caliber. I don’t recall if you tested them in the lighter weights or not. Thanks for your work!
Hmmm, Lucky Gunner Labs also uses Clear Ballistics gel, and their tests have the same ammo averaging .59" diameter. The non-bonded version shows .74" expansion. Wondering if different gel temperatures could be a factor (?).
Nice VId. I was interested in GS Bonded +P 124 grn, but could not find any for ages. Found Gold Dot and HST, both +p 124 grn, which I have in my rotation now. Gold Dots being my go to, but will rotate out with HST in a year or so. If I find GS Bonded, I would pick up a box or two just to have on hand.
I use Remington Blackbelt 9mm 124gr +P cartridges in my G43, and respect their performance… site re-acquisition is nearly instantaneous. It’s one of my favorites!
I commend you for your commitment to golden sabre. Even dying your hair gold 👍🏻 By day plain ol’ Gun_Sam but by night he becomes the Golden_Sabre the human 38 super, Excellent!
I'm like you, frustrated with the lack of attention given to anything but 9mm in the handgun cartridge world. I'm sick to death of 9mm-everything. It's like eating potatoes for breakfast, lunch, and dinner 365 days for years.
@@nokoolaid Actually mine were not +P. Back then +P did not exist for 45 acp. Not with factory loads anyway. But hey, I would trust those old rounds in my gun right now if I needed it.
@@nokoolaid Back then (80s) most 1911's were not rated for anything hot like +P. Not sure what a person would have used to shoot them with. But hey, with 45, the ballsitics does not need high velocity to work. Heavy bullet with large frontal area has always done the job.
I noticed that Remington HTP 158 grain JSHP 357 magnum has on average a100-150 fps higher velocity that what's printed on the box through a 4 inch barrel, and remington claims their quoted velocity is through a 4 inch barrel. But I know what you mean with popular calibers like 9mm being loaded to full performance. Even some +p 38 special loadings are not up to par. Also do you have a video testing Hornady critical duty 357 magnum? I have tested it in the past into water jugs and I could not get it to expand out of a 6 inch barrel. And I recently tested sig elite performance v crown 357 magnum 125 grain out of a 4 inch barrel shot into water jugs I got excellent expansion to a point where the lead core lost its copper jacket in one piece. I am actually kind of impressed The copper jacket didn't shred into pieces but my next thought was how fast is that sig bullet really traveling out of a 4 inch 686.
I ran the HTP 158 gr rated at 1,235 FPS and in my 4.125" barrel from 5 yards I averaged 1,273 FPS. I had the opposite experience with the HTP 125 gr, as it was rated at 1,450 FPS and in the same gun I get around 1,400 FPS.
In my water jug tests with my Taurus pt845 rated plus p anexd my hi point 45 acp rated plus pi reload plus p and 45 super.hornaday 185,200,230,250 all xtp bullets good to great
Sad to see poor oerformance from a 45. The original GS 230 gr would expand into the .70's with good penetration. The FBI specified it when the put out bid requests for the FBI HRT 1911 pistol (Contract won by Springfield, brought to market as the Operator). As far as i know, they were quite happy with it. I still have a box or 2 of the original 230 gr GS from the 90's. I guard them jealously
It's not bad, especially if you had to shoot through a barrier, that jacket is twice as hard as a copper jacket, but designed well enough to expand when no barrier is in the way.
Ok cool. I’m really curious to see if the performance is linear with shorter barrels compared to longer barrels and perhaps use the popular FHST .45 to see if the bullets perform the same.
I would argue that the 45 comes pre-expanded and is much better at punching through the target causing more overall intended effect. Much better than the diminutive 9mm which relies upon high pressure. As for your tests... look at your chrony; your Glock is openning the breach far too soon because of light slide, long barrel, and weak recoil spring... you can fix that or just get a 21 instead for consistancy.
Yea......thay is why I carry 185 or 200 gr gold dots in 45 acp. I usually prefer to carry light or middle weight for caliber because I fear over penetration. Thanks for releasing the video!
Wow. I can't believe I carried a Glock 30 for so long. My standard load was Remington Golden Saber 230gr. Not bonded. I wonder if I'm really better off with 38Spl+P though. LOL.
It's debatable. One part of all the handgun stopping power data I respect is the AIT (goats at Strasbourg) test. I actually grew up on a goat farm and they are very strong creatures. Something like Federal 9mm 115 gr JHP has an incapacitation time of 9.36 sec, as where basic .45 ACP 230 gr ball is 13.84 sec, which isn't too much less effective. Remington 125 gr .38+P SJHP is 11.74 sec, and a lot of the JHP .380 ACP is in the 10-13 second range. The more I type the more I do realize that a non expanding 230 gr round isn't great, it's not much different than .380, .38, 9mm JHP ammo really, which is really the whole point of it's creation over 100 years ago. You could do worse, there's no rimfire in that test for obvious reasons.
@@GunSam In all cases, that seems like a lot of time when the goat is actively trying to kill you. I wonder how fast you want a 0.355-7" expanding bullet to be going to minimize that time before it becomes too much to shoot from a super light snub or auto. My personal experience with a 125gr pill in my M&P340 is 1250fps is pretty much the upper limit and I would actually prefer slower. But I don't think I want to go below 1050fps for reasons. Obviously the 135gr GDHP in 38Spl+P is below that and that is what I currently carry. The Underwood 125gr GDHP is a hotter load and feels about the same. DDR has had good results with that (Item 128). Have you tested that lately? The 110gr stuff is compelling from a recoil point of view and your test of the CD vs HTP in that weight was impressive.
My friend got shot in the stomach with a 45acp ball ammo and it almost came out his ass cheek doctors just did one little slice to get the bullet out. My point is it dropped him in his tracks and the wound was huge. His wife had to change the dressing out everyday.
If your buying .45 HP ammo, your wasting your time and money. They don't generate enough speed to expand. Never have and never will. The point of the .45 is big bullet, deep penetration and hard hitting. Either a .45 or 9mm will get the job done. Which one you chose is up to you.
While that might seem logical, it is less logical when you find out that the specific ammo I am testing (Golden Saber Bonded) does not come in a .45 ACP+P.
WERES DINO 🦖🥵🤕? which way did he go Sears 22lr rifle verses German Mauser 30-06 sporter at 375 yards dino gets blasted th-cam.com/video/88UNk2YdCYM/w-d-xo.html
I remember the old CCI "flying ashtrays" in 45 ACP with their huge HP. Never freaking expanded.
Thank you for all of your work! The only 230 grain 45 acp I have seen consistently expand is the Federal HST...but your "real world" scenario was not used...I cannot remember if you have tested the HST in 45...
The federal HST 230gr JHP and 230gr +P JHP are my two favorite rounds!
The thing that needs to be remembered is that gel is designed to be a repeatable medium to test bullets. It never was designed to replicate a human or animal. Even your fiber board is just used so it is repeatable for all cals. It makes no sense why your gel hates 230gr bullets when the same bullets do well in most other tests on the tube.
Thanks for the video and the work that goes into it. I really enjoy and look forward to them
My gel doesn't hate it. Look at my last two videos where I tested .45 ACP, both 230 gr and they did expand. I don't think anything is at play here other than bad ammo.
@@GunSam I wasn't trying to infer anything just being a smartass cause I've seen quite a few not work but also have seen some work that other testers can't get to work. Sorry if I offended you
@@biggunshandguns3687 I see what you're saying about gel not proving everything about how ammo performs. And your right, it definitely doesn't replicate humans. Can't really simulate bones or cartilage. However, gel does usually give a reasonable idea of how a bullet may perform under near perfect circumstances. If a bullet can't even open up in a gel test, it's safe to say it most likely won't in a self defense shooting situation either. Better defensive rounds are out there...
@@lurewars until they allow testing on criminals, it will have to do.
The 10% ordinance gel is calibrated to duplicate the penetration in a dog's hind thigh meat, believe it or not. That's where the bb at 590 fps 3.4" penetration calibration actually comes from. Whether or not that calibration is reasonable/useful is a different question.
9mm 124 g +p bonded Golden Saber is my go to it's beautiful
Many years ago i tried aluminum jacketed 185gr .45ACPs on a chunk of old telephone pole with a rotting core( not very technical). Both the heavier copper jacketed and aluminums expanded, but the aluminums easily doubled in diameter, leaving aluminum chips throughout the hole. The resulting wound would leave a perp on the operating table for hours, picking out bits. My 2¢.
I'd think I'd rather leave them on the table rather than leave them on the table picking out bits.
Thanks for sharing, Sam. The practice by ammo companies of not loading 45 and other larger rounds to military spec is disturbing. Most of our law enforcement organizations in my area carry 40 S&W.
Excellent! Also, I hear they carry they FN FNX 40 as their duty gun!
@@jasonroberts9357 I may have mentioned this before but I have the FNX 40.
@@Me2Lancer Yes Sir Lord Weatherly. I would expect nothing less for a man of great sophistication and class to carry the mighty FNX 40. I too am a member of the FNX 40 Brethren.
It's always great to see you among the various FNX and 40 cal. videos. God bless you and yours and Long Live Lord Weatherly!!!
great video
As you say Sam about the manufacturers cutting back on everything except the 9mm I have also noticed that in the 40s&w that I'm a big fan of. I'm glad I cast and load my own or before long I might be SOL
I carry Speer gold dot 200 gr +p in my 45 carry gun. It's a great round and seems to always expand. At least in wet phone books.
I recall running some before, but it's been years since I have seen it anywhere.
I just happened to see some on Midway.
I bought some GS bonded .45 and Sig V-Crown last year when ammo was harder to find. I wanted HSTs or Gold Dot but couldn’t find it anywhere (and still hard to find). I bought the 185 and 200g loads vs the 230s expressly because the 230s have done so poorly in your tests in these loads and most others. Hope the lighter bullet loads do better in this caliber. I don’t recall if you tested them in the lighter weights or not. Thanks for your work!
Thanks for another great video. Aside from Lehigh Extreme Defense rounds for the .45, I've all but lost faith in it for a carry gun.
Vcrown and fed punch did pretty well in recent tests, 230 gr. Dunno how well they would do in a short barrel
Yes. 45 acp ammo usually needs a long barrel. Xtreme defender is impressive, and it works in any barrel length.
Hmmm, Lucky Gunner Labs also uses Clear Ballistics gel, and their tests have the same ammo averaging .59" diameter. The non-bonded version shows .74" expansion. Wondering if different gel temperatures could be a factor (?).
Nice VId. I was interested in GS Bonded +P 124 grn, but could not find any for ages. Found Gold Dot and HST, both +p 124 grn, which I have in my rotation now. Gold Dots being my go to, but will rotate out with HST in a year or so. If I find GS Bonded, I would pick up a box or two just to have on hand.
Love RGS 9mm just can't find them anymore.
For 45acp, I'm staying with HST!
I prefer my 40sw end of day though 😃
Might as well use hardball in the 45acp. My old carry load the fed. Hydroshok 230 grain use to do good back in the day.
That's what's great about the old 45 is you don't need hollow points to be a man stopper.
yep
You probably saw this a year ago except for the intro explanation lol
I use Remington Blackbelt 9mm 124gr +P cartridges in my G43, and respect their performance… site re-acquisition is nearly instantaneous. It’s one of my favorites!
I had never heard of them so I looked them up now. Says discontinued.
Good video Sam. That said, I have never been a Remington ammo fan...it is range ammo at best.
How about trying the Golden Saber .45 ACP in 185 grain.
I commend you for your commitment to golden sabre. Even dying your hair gold 👍🏻
By day plain ol’ Gun_Sam but by night he becomes the Golden_Sabre the human 38 super, Excellent!
Good info.
Have you tried the Federal 45 ACP 230 gr Hydra-Shok from a 5 inch barrel?
I would like to see a copper projectile for 45 acp typically lighter projectiles with copper also great expansion possibilities.
He has a buffalo Barnes.44 spl vs .45acp episode Both worked beautifully
Another excellent monolithic choice is the DoubleTap Barnes Tac-Xp.
I'm like you, frustrated with the lack of attention given to anything but 9mm in the handgun cartridge world. I'm sick to death of 9mm-everything. It's like eating potatoes for breakfast, lunch, and dinner 365 days for years.
Remington used to have a nice +P 185g in 45 that worked well. Rated at 1150. I wonder why they discontinued it?
I still have my old ccw Colt Officers model loaded with those. lol About 20 years now. I should shoot them off.
@@nathanlambshead4778 They were very hot for factory stuff.
@@nokoolaid Actually mine were not +P. Back then +P did not exist for 45 acp. Not with factory loads anyway. But hey, I would trust those old rounds in my gun right now if I needed it.
@@nathanlambshead4778 I am pretty sure they did exist. I bought them at one time. It was a long time ago. They were rated at 1150.
@@nokoolaid Back then (80s) most 1911's were not rated for anything hot like +P. Not sure what a person would have used to shoot them with. But hey, with 45, the ballsitics does not need high velocity to work. Heavy bullet with large frontal area has always done the job.
45acp generally do more damage when expands, the problem is whent it not expands....
Thanks, another good ammo comparison video. Thanks for sharing. Take care.
Thank you, take care.
👍😊 expansion or not its still a big hole. I run the cheap 230g Remington jhp 🤷♂️ it’s nose is flatter than a fmj and it runs good in my 1911.
thank you Sam
185 Bonded to be tested vs ?
I noticed that Remington HTP 158 grain JSHP 357 magnum has on average a100-150 fps higher velocity that what's printed on the box through a 4 inch barrel, and remington claims their quoted velocity is through a 4 inch barrel. But I know what you mean with popular calibers like 9mm being loaded to full performance. Even some +p 38 special loadings are not up to par. Also do you have a video testing Hornady critical duty 357 magnum? I have tested it in the past into water jugs and I could not get it to expand out of a 6 inch barrel. And I recently tested sig elite performance v crown 357 magnum 125 grain out of a 4 inch barrel shot into water jugs I got excellent expansion to a point where the lead core lost its copper jacket in one piece. I am actually kind of impressed The copper jacket didn't shred into pieces but my next thought was how fast is that sig bullet really traveling out of a 4 inch 686.
I ran the HTP 158 gr rated at 1,235 FPS and in my 4.125" barrel from 5 yards I averaged 1,273 FPS. I had the opposite experience with the HTP 125 gr, as it was rated at 1,450 FPS and in the same gun I get around 1,400 FPS.
th-cam.com/video/cUAmw9DJlrM/w-d-xo.html
Wow see this is why I still carry 45 Winchester BLACK TALONS.I know for sure it well expand
In my water jug tests with my Taurus pt845 rated plus p anexd my hi point 45 acp rated plus pi reload plus p and 45 super.hornaday 185,200,230,250 all xtp bullets good to great
Guess what I still carry 45 Winchester BLACK TALONS in my 1911 mix with the new Underwood extreme penetrator 200gr bullet
Now you're talking 👊👍🏼
45 acp is tricky with HP ammo. IMO, it is best to just use 185/220 +p or Xtreme defender 135. That Xtreme defender is impressive in 45 acp 😮
Sad to see poor oerformance from a 45. The original GS 230 gr would expand into the .70's with good penetration. The FBI specified it when the put out bid requests for the FBI HRT 1911 pistol (Contract won by Springfield, brought to market as the Operator). As far as i know, they were quite happy with it. I still have a box or 2 of the original 230 gr GS from the 90's. I guard them jealously
This is my favorite 9mm carry ammo.
It's not bad, especially if you had to shoot through a barrier, that jacket is twice as hard as a copper jacket, but designed well enough to expand when no barrier is in the way.
Thank you
Could you do a short barrel version of this please? Like out of a micro 9 3” barrel and a smaller .45 like the SA 45 Xdm compact?
Someday, when I get another subcompact .45, I used to have a Glock 36 but I plan at some point to get a 45 Shield.
Ok cool. I’m really curious to see if the performance is linear with shorter barrels compared to longer barrels and perhaps use the popular FHST .45 to see if the bullets perform the same.
Critical Duty 220g +P works well in even shorter barrels
Didn’t the HST 45 expand in earlier video
I would argue that the 45 comes pre-expanded and is much better at punching through the target causing more overall intended effect. Much better than the diminutive 9mm which relies upon high pressure. As for your tests... look at your chrony; your Glock is openning the breach far too soon because of light slide, long barrel, and weak recoil spring... you can fix that or just get a 21 instead for consistancy.
In 45, 200 grain gold dots are where it’s at.
Sam maybe you need to test the 45 out of a 1911 5in barrel
I used a 5.3" Glock so I figure that's as good.
@@GunSam o ok
The original load was 200 gr. the mil. went 230 the 185 gr. works .
Thanks
Yea......thay is why I carry 185 or 200 gr gold dots in 45 acp. I usually prefer to carry light or middle weight for caliber because I fear over penetration.
Thanks for releasing the video!
I’d like to see the Speer 45 ACP Gold Dot G2 Carry Gun 200 Grain +p tested if you get a chance.
I haven't been able to acquire it in years.
@@GunSam MidwayUSA has it in stock right now.
I love your reload bench.
What are the measurements so I can make me a new one .
I purchased it as a kit from Menards if I recall. I'm 90% sure it's the 6' Workmaster Workbench, so you can look that up and get the specs.
I would be surprised if tax-xp in 45 or Corbon DPX 45 didn’t expand try those
I carry Norma mhp in my 45, and American Gunner +p in my 9mm
I suspect 230gr Ranger-T will expand if you can find any.
I was lucky enough to have purchased ten boxes in +P about 25 years ago. 😀
A 200 grain Winchester t series in 45acp be nice to see
They don't make a 200 grain T-Series in .45 ACP, only 230 grain and 230 grain +P.
All .45 acp should be loaded to a minimum of 1000 fps for 230 gr.
Well, dangit!
Wow. I can't believe I carried a Glock 30 for so long. My standard load was Remington Golden Saber 230gr. Not bonded. I wonder if I'm really better off with 38Spl+P though. LOL.
It's debatable. One part of all the handgun stopping power data I respect is the AIT (goats at Strasbourg) test. I actually grew up on a goat farm and they are very strong creatures. Something like Federal 9mm 115 gr JHP has an incapacitation time of 9.36 sec, as where basic .45 ACP 230 gr ball is 13.84 sec, which isn't too much less effective. Remington 125 gr .38+P SJHP is 11.74 sec, and a lot of the JHP .380 ACP is in the 10-13 second range. The more I type the more I do realize that a non expanding 230 gr round isn't great, it's not much different than .380, .38, 9mm JHP ammo really, which is really the whole point of it's creation over 100 years ago. You could do worse, there's no rimfire in that test for obvious reasons.
@@GunSam In all cases, that seems like a lot of time when the goat is actively trying to kill you. I wonder how fast you want a 0.355-7" expanding bullet to be going to minimize that time before it becomes too much to shoot from a super light snub or auto.
My personal experience with a 125gr pill in my M&P340 is 1250fps is pretty much the upper limit and I would actually prefer slower. But I don't think I want to go below 1050fps for reasons. Obviously the 135gr GDHP in 38Spl+P is below that and that is what I currently carry. The Underwood 125gr GDHP is a hotter load and feels about the same. DDR has had good results with that (Item 128). Have you tested that lately?
The 110gr stuff is compelling from a recoil point of view and your test of the CD vs HTP in that weight was impressive.
My friend got shot in the stomach with a 45acp ball ammo and it almost came out his ass cheek doctors just did one little slice to get the bullet out. My point is it dropped him in his tracks and the wound was huge. His wife had to change the dressing out everyday.
MDF?
If your buying .45 HP ammo, your wasting your time and money. They don't generate enough speed to expand. Never have and never will. The point of the .45 is big bullet, deep penetration and hard hitting. Either a .45 or 9mm will get the job done. Which one you chose is up to you.
Oh. I'm sure that the last videos I did with Sig V-Crown and Federal Punch that are 230 gr and did expand, are lies.
Need to use the +P 45
While that might seem logical, it is less logical when you find out that the specific ammo I am testing (Golden Saber Bonded) does not come in a .45 ACP+P.
@@GunSam I understand. I forgot to tell you EXCELLENT EXCELLENT VIDEO. Also this is why I carry Buffalo Bore 45Super 230g with XTP BULLETS
I just don't buy any higher end remington ammo. Test results are consistently bad, particularly HTP's.
HTP is garbage lol. 2-3 gel block pass throughs even in their 155 gr .40 caliber. The HTP revolver loads that are semi jacketed are decent though.
10mm please :)
my 10mm conversion barely shoots right, but I think I am buying a 10mm revolver soon.
I dont like those, they are not as good as HST, Gold Dot or Ranger , or a bunch of others...
45 all day long.
The 45 is over rated, so is the 45/70, imo.
Underpowered. 45 ammo is overrated. So is underpowered 9mm, 10mm, and 40 Smith and Wesson.
@@ftdefiance1 That's the best comment I have heard in years lol. Truth.
That's why I reload!
WERES DINO 🦖🥵🤕? which way did he go Sears 22lr rifle verses German Mauser 30-06 sporter at 375 yards dino gets blasted th-cam.com/video/88UNk2YdCYM/w-d-xo.html