ALDI/Ferrex cordless drill PCB
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 พ.ย. 2024
- And finally the 20V tool PCB for the 20/40V battery pack system. This shares the same complex power management system as the others for ultra low standby current.
It's quite perplexing. I think two of the inputs are analogue for voltage monitoring.
An unexpected feature of this module is that it doesn't control the tool directly, but just sits between it and the battery. When the tool is used this module detects the load, wakes up and switches on the MOSFETs to allow the tool to be powered fully. The bulk of the circuitry is to allow the module to sleep when not needed.
If woken, the unit remains awake while the load is present, but quickly shuts down into a sleep mode again. During sleep the processor is powered down completely and other sections of circuitry are also deactivated.
Although you can trick the tool into running by putting a 10K resistor between negative and the central thermistor contact, it will lose the ability to sense if a non-compatible battery pack is low, so may over discharge the pack if it doesn't have its own internal under-voltage shutoff.
If you enjoy these videos you can help support the channel with a dollar for coffee, cookies and random gadgets for disassembly at:- www.bigclive.co...
This also keeps the channel independent of TH-cam's algorithm quirks, allowing it to be a bit more dangerous and naughty.
#ElectronicsCreators
I love these breakdowns, you're fantastic at reverse engineering this stuff and explaining it to us all. I watch mostly out of fascination and entertainment as much as education and you rarely disappoint. 👍☺
SECONDED
Things worthy of note here...does anyone else listen to Clive's vdos for his soothing voice to alleviate depression n sadness ?
I think the green section is simply to allow the MCU to tell when the trigger has been released. it will likely be PWMing the purple MOSFET, so could sense the switch state during the "off" periods
Could there be motor braking, or regen to dump a bit of power back into the battery ?
Could be pulsing it... Or maybe just monitoring the DC voltage drop across the FET's RDS(on) to see if the trigger has been released yet. Those drill motors draw quite a bit of current even when unloaded so there'll be at least 100mV across it.
Yes. This circuit is using a couple of rectifier fets as a low-side-driver instead of using a full motor driver chip as a high-side-driver. The circuitry is more complex because of the missing features (current sense line and thermal cutout), but the principle is the same: microcontroller produces a PWM signal that turns the FETs on and off in a controlled way to vary the speed of the motors.
@@kimchristensen2175 I wouldn't expect 100mV or anything near that to be enough to turn on the other transistor, especially with the voltage divider cutting it in half at the gate.
Nevermind. I forgot the connection to the gate is the red line that goes around to the top-right. That does make sense.
@@kimchristensen2175 Yes uses the on resistance to monitor current, as the voltage will rise with increasing current, so when the voltage rises probably over 400mV, probably around the 20A mark, it will switch off the mosfets, as this indicates either the drill has jammed, or the load is in danger of burning the drill out. Just like the DW01 does it, monitoring the voltage, though here the zener and resistor is there as clamp and, with the 10k resistor, as RC filter so it will take little notice of noise, and will need around 0.1 second of high current before the MCU turns the output off, so you need to let go of the switch, wait a second for the capacitors to discharge fully, and try again. For higher current you just use a third or fourth mosfet in parallel with the original power devices, as the current sense resistor is mostly provided by the leadframe and tracks, as modern mosfets can have on resistance equal to that of the same length of thick wire.
My Spirit Friend:
You have a holographic and multidimensional perspective on some of the most esoteric electronic visualizations.
Your oblique, or un-defined, visualizations are priceless.
Thank You for freely offered electronic renderings.
Love to ship you stuff for evaluation.
Just in time a new video I love these small board because you explaining them so well
One way it could know the tool is not in use. Briefly turn off the two parallel mosfets (purple). At that point, if the trigger is still on the feedback (green) will rise. Else, if the trigger is off the feedback (green) will stay low. This could be done fast enough to not be noticeable.
My £5 Ferrex impact driver works with the drill PCB removed, and a Makita battery connector directly wired to the trigger + & - leads.
Thank you for your description. I was wondering what all the fuss was about 🤣(Complicated redundant circuit Makita batteries have onboard).
That schematic is a work of art.
Is that the first time that you've had to use colours in the schematic diagram?
Thanks for this series, it's interesting to see how complicated these things are - more so when compared to the old mains powered drills!!
I only really use them on the schematics when it makes understanding them easier.
From watching this series...
These have been competently done for their target audience.
For that reason, they should be considered for a novice/seldom home diyer.
I can't imagine it would hold up to drilling a hole out of a brick wall ,(fan ducts bad the like) but would hold out in a IKEA screw to wall kind of way. Loose bit of decking. Screw the flat pack shed.
Wood applications and light stone/metal drilling exercises upto 8mm. Which is most stuff tbf.
I have some pro Bosch, and I used things seldom but when they are used... They get used... Gsb21, took 4 times longer to drill a 6mm hole 2.5 inches than the GSb 55. The hammer function with brick is very much a consideration in pro application.
I'm going off topic towards a pub chat...
Good tools for money. For a seldom diyer.
or to give your kid for learning with.. when they are old enough... Ofc...
The thought that's gone into the circuitry leaves me feeling confident that it won't blow up or catch fire in my hands
A true story with older, cheap power tools...
But I'd have to see some in rough tough in action to decide if worth buying as a back up.
The GSb 21 is the back up/light duty if the GSb 55 is in use
For everything else, there's an SDS.
Which I don't think Aldi will sell anytime soon.
Maybe
Haha
Good work Clive and thanks for the destructive delivery or knowledge. It is for the betterment of us all. And maybe Aldis bank account...
:D
I agree. I bought a Festool drill/driver set at about 5 times the price of these store-brand tools: it is a work of art and a joy to use. But for my home-gamer work the Black & Decker tools that make up most of my inventory of power tools are more than adequate.
Although I do not understand much of the electronical talk I still enjoy these videos. Awaiting the reassembly of the fully functional drill/driver. Would appear to be a challenge or two. . .
Once you release the trigger, the voltage at the green dot will drop to zero (after capacitor discharge). Until then this would be almost equal to the voltage drop across the mosfets in the purple box.
Best trilogy ever.....Now I am wondering what is next. Thanks for the video Clive.
Feels like it's a protection circuit more than anything else.
It doesn't need to detect when motor is off, it can simply run for a reasonable period of time. It may need to shut down if battery goes low, might pulse output in order to gauge flow etc.
Mattias Wandel took apart a tool battery recently that was dead, it had three lots of 5 cells in and all three middle cells in each group was way under voltage. It seems the charge control balancing circuit in the pack was powering itself from the middle cell so if the pack was left unused for a long time it was very slowly draining the middle cells right down.
I noticed this on a non charging battery pack of mine.
My brain is fuzzy and probably I haven't understood everything tonight because over carbonation :) LOL
I'm not sure, but that flyback diode shouldn't be wired on the other side of the switch?
The led could have been for testing. Also looking at the circuit in the green square does look like it's measuring current or is just there to detect when the motor is running. I'm guessing it just uses that to decide when it wants to go to sleep.
I think it monitors the current by looking for the voltage drop across the fet. When the tool is turned off it measures almost no current turning the fet off.
Clive your reverse engineering skills are nothing short of astounding! Especially since you write in ink which disallows you erasing and redrawing the schematic. Would be an interesting video if you were willing to share your method of procedure when breaking down a ckt and how you always seem t be able to draw it in an understandable way (but then that is your secret sauce for the popularity of you channel) so I wouldn't blame you for not sharing. For me it would certainly be a spaghetti mess with lots of erasure and scribbles. Cheers to you!
The first version of the schematic is either in blocks or a rat's nest.
@@bigclivedotcom It can be several versions until you realise what's going on.
Yeah these videos are fantastic
Version 7 of Kicad is due for release any day now, it will have a feature that allows a PCB to be imported in then you can draw traces over it and all the other bits and bobs, its aimed specifically at reverse engineering even allowing for exporting your work to be manufactured. Maybe something in there that will be useful to you in your endeavors !...cheers.
Most relevant information from this video(s) for me is, that there is no mechanical decoupling between battery contacts and PCB. So all forces and vibrations put a load on the soldering. But that seems to be standard also on expensive ones. My saw has wires between contacts and PCB.
Me and a guy from customer service had to remove a 160 amp connector off a speed controller intact, we used 5 soldering irons between the two of us, verdict, large soldier blob under the connector
That's a bit wild to slam the batteries in parallel like that...
Could it be using the red-wire and its attached voltage divider to monitor the battery voltage for a rise (when the heavy load is removed)?
It could be.
@@bigclivedotcom It'd probably come down to if it's an analogue input or if they have that voltage divider set to flip a digital signal.
Interesting. It's morning now (moaning? Techmoaning?) and I'm still a bit sleepy, so I had a little brain fart trying to analyze how the microcontroller gets its power, but then understood it, hahaha! All you need is to have some capacity to give it an impulse to work. Clever.
It was quite a puzzle to reverse engineer.
@@bigclivedotcom Having done many circuit tracings over the years it's a lot easier when you know roughly what's going on before you start. Amazing how often you find mistakes too.
Dang that was a complicated one. Thanks for the video Clive.
I believe these are made by Positec. The same people behind Worx and Kress. Ferrex are great tools for occasional use.
i guess the 'weird' mosfer can only work when the power mosfets are off for low battery voltage and to reset the sleep timer, but due to the rdson resistance of the power pair could it also detect overcurrent?
Waiting for the next two parts of this five part trilogy.
I don't see any speed control circuitry, just an on/off switch. Seems like a lot of complexity if all it is doing is checking for 10k on the T connector and some basic over current protection.
The speed control circuitry is on a different board or in the trigger assembly.
He mentions that the "switch" on the drawing is actually the trigger and that the trigger assembly uses variable frequency to control the speed. So, yeah, it really does seem like all the complications is because they want to be able to switch of almost everything for ultra-low leakage when sitting on the shelf.
my thought exactly ... maybe its just a pound worth of mumbo jumbo to make it look like something and all it does is turn on the mosfets .. the drill probably works just fine with 12 V going directly into the trigger switch ^^
PS.. BC. you forgot to mention "With MEGA Schematic" in the video title. Crikey.. it's complex!
Like the higher audio level than usual.
The tool designers have got wise to you Clive and are deliberately trying to trip you up. I can imagine the product meeting " now how's our big Clive additions going "
Question/experiment if you could please Clive.
Before I get a 40V angle grinder, would a 10K resistor work on that? I plan to power it with 2x 20V packs and a 3D printed holder.
Resistor or thermistor pin of one of the 20V packs?
Do you use Pens you bought from Aldi for the diagrams Clive (otherwise it's not really Cricket)
Thanks for another good video Clive 👍
I've got a Harbor Freight Hercules Drill that has an issue that I need to break down like this. I've taken it apart and found no obvious problems. The issue is when you pull the trigger the illumination light comes on and there is a bit of high pitch whine that jitters, but no motor action. if you play with the trigger it will start up and drill fine, but it might take 20 sec of trigger maniplulation to get it to start. I have yet to find a replacement trigger. I am watching for parts drills as well.
Thanks Clive
Maybe the N chan at the bottom detects a fault condition, and would originallly light the led
if there was a temperaature problem for instance, the dual mosfet would be turned off by the mcu making the mid rail go high again, which would normally trigger the tool to start, but the N chan holdds it off while the trigger is preased
There is a lowmelt solder available, it has a way lower melting point.
This solder can help a lot with removing these solid pieces of metal.
Applying this to the solder point also lowers the exsisting solders melt point.
I think the green box would shut it down. Once the 5 volt supply comes up, the motor power can travel through both purple and green, but once the motor stops, the discharge resistor in green will drop the capacitor there to 0 volts on the monitoring line.
Is the green circuit discharging the capacitor so that the board is ready for the next trigger press?
I'm still wondering where the speed adjustment is managed other than by PWM via the micro controller? Nice work though Clive!
It's dealt with in the trigger.
the mystery circuit kills the battery in x number of uses - ?
This looks like a state machine, where the states of the circuit are determined by the previous actions of external inputs.
The missing led is for a work light feature like on DeWalt drills.
Big Clive another brilliant video. A couple of questions for you, what do you do with all of your reverse engenering pics, and do you fix all products together again, and what do you do with them. All the best from Mr b Johnston
Most products go back together again unless they're really low class, in which case they get scavenged for parts and recycled.
I archive all the images of PCBs.
My first thought was,,,A clever electron vampire. The real question to that would be,,, Does the accompanying paper work say anything like, "remove battery pack when not in use,,,, to prolong battery life"?
Could the green tinted mosfet have been a battery caution circuit? Sort of a half power remaining indicator. If it was meant for raw switching on overload a better divider ratio should have been used. The last idea is that it was a "voltage to low" sense for the processor's own 5v rail, since it's drawing bias after the P channel mosfet. I think the days of a 6 foot cord on a drill were the easiest. Keep working. Good luck! 👍
A 6 foot cord get's problematic when you are up a twenty foot metal ladder in drizzly rain.
@@Derek_Garnham I hear that. I suggest cutting the end off a 50 to 100 foot cord and using it. At least it might cushion your fall on the way down.
@@d.t.4523 prevention is better than cure, perhaps lashing myself to the ladder with it would be the way to go :)
@@Derek_Garnham Hahahaha
sorry for not watching the whole analysis thru, my quick question can this be modified efficiently - cheaply to give 10.8 volts for the 12V systems (that are in truth 10.8 if i get it right) hey thx a bunch for the playthru 😉🍺🍺
Brilliant reverse engineering! Forgive me for nitpicking, but are the arrows on the P-channel and N-channel MOSFET symbols on the schematic not reversed? (i.e. should it not be that arrows point towards the gate on N-channel, and away from the gate on P-channel ?)
I may have messed that up.
Oow a spicy one!
Can you do the parkside performance 20v batteries?
I've printed a few battery connectors. So I can use them for other purposes. I'd like to incorporate some low voltage cutoff, to protect the battery. What would you suggest. Could be an interesting video.
Technically speaking, with this switched thermistor system you could use that signal to pull the gate of a P channel MOSFET low to turn it in
Awesome Video big clive
This circuit is using a couple of rectifier FETs as a low-side-driver instead of using a full motor driver chip as a high-side-driver. The circuitry is more complex because of the missing features (current sense line and thermal cutout), but the principle is the same: microcontroller produces a PWM signal that turns the FETs on and off in a controlled way to vary the speed of the motors.
I think something is missing, because the N-Channel FET circuit is probably monitoring the switch and sending an analog signal back to the MCU (which the MCU uses to determine the speed)
If the schematic is correct, the only way to sense knob release is by sensing battery voltage drop. This may be picked up by the MCU via 200k/20k divider
I think you are correct that they turn the two big MOSFETs off and monitor what happens on the MOSFET outlined in green. It is a bit odd that they didn't use a GMR current sensor or something to monitor the current. Maybe an extra MOSFET is cheaper.
A FET is about 100x cheaper than a GMR sensor, lol.
@@jaro6985 In small numbers, GMR sensors are about $2. In large quantities they can be under a dollar each.
@@kensmith5694 yes, and you can get a FET for less than 1 cent...
@@jaro6985 That depends on how many and the size of the fet. But you may be right about the reason, anyway.
I like the teardown of the hardware but my preference is the electrical/electronics stuff.
hardware hater ...
I prefer to see variation. I'm quite into electronics, so I love these videos.
Does this mean the protection circuitry would fail to start if the load was drawing a lower current than the multiple amps the tool motor would draw?
For example if one were to cut the battery connector and board off of a dead tool and use it to power a small site radio…
I'm not sure the minimum load that's required to keep the protection circuitry awake.
Hi can you please test LED magnet charging cable 🤔 is it to damaging the battery of the phone 🤔
Finally!
Does the unused LED pad be for the drills with the front light?
In the circuitry it doesn't really make sense for that function.
Clive, love the video, out of this world reverse engineering, learned a lot. For most of the video(s) I sat here pondering how overly complicated this drill is and what's the lifespan of such a drill. I purchased a Milwaukee 3/8" and 1/2" hole shooter around 1986. Yes, I paid a lot for them, and yes I have to drag around an extension cord, but they've never failed me half way through a job. I get it, 20 feet in the air who want's to drag around a cord, but actually, would anyone use this type of drill in that scenario? How many of these cordless drills would an average person buy in 37 years?
Tools like this are a consumable to a busy tradesman. They make life so much easier.
YMMV of course, I'm sure your Milwaukee might have a lower TCO over its life but the Aldi drill, battery combo isn't aimed at the same market or users who would *never* spend the money your Milwaukee cost because it just isn't necessary for them to own such a tool to put up the occasional shelf or bracket around the home.
Having said that, my Makita Cordless which was bought at a retail hardware store to do 'one emergency job' for a client has earned me tens of thousands over its 15 year life and is still going strong without letting me down halfway, risking trips, electrocution, falls etc. because of the cord, dodgy site electrics, careless site workers.
There are massive safety advantages of not having that cable, not just for the user, but anyone else in the vicinity. Also makes working remote from mains power possible. I only use my corded drill for jobs bordering upon "tool abuse" now, it probably hates me.
@@Derek_Garnham All of that is so true, and if you had to for some reason fix something outside in the rain or on wet ground at least you won't get electrocuted by the cordless unit.
@@steviebboy69 In the distance I can hear the usual suspects chanting "It's health and safety gone mad" :)
The circuit in the blue box could be a low voltage cutout to protect the battery from going to zero volts
The battery has it's own monitoring circuitry and signals problems by removing the thermistor signal.
@@bigclivedotcom but what if the microprocessor crashes in the battery? Redundant protection is allways a good idea.
Hi Clive
I watch your videos regularly as I've always been interested in how things work. I have something you may want to take apart it's a flip video camera that's stopped working. if your interested let me know.
The circuit possible turns off as follows.
Release the trigger and the voltage at either end of the series capacitor will drop. This will turn the N channel and N channel Mosfets off. The 5 volts to the MCU will drop to 5V and everything is then off.
not a bad board quite busy but decent interesting video 2x👍
I got this fly orb hover ball and the battery is not lasting anymore. Do you have any ideas on how to fix it? I have been trying for days and am starting to get frustrated.
Thank you
If it's been used a lot or stored for a long time with a low battery it may need it replaced.
How would the battery be replaced?
I try every video to follow along, but I'm just not knowledgeable enough I guess because I always get lost. I'll keep learning and trying.
This was quite a complex one. As you keep watching technical videos stuff will gradually fall into place.
@@bigclivedotcom Thanks for the reply! If you ever feel the desire to do a learning series on practictal circuit design, I'd be all eyes and ears. I'm currently going through Paul Scherz book at a snail's pace.
The ? Resister - When the trigger is Short Circuit ON - is to limit the current to the capacitor and set the time delay for the MCU to run, power detect and to continue to run until the trigger is released - in the OC position, A way to Smooth start to reduce inrush current.
Did you say Aldi Ferrex Drillogy?
Hi again Clive, once more a great video explanation. The topic made me remember something I have tried a few times in the past and never succeded! I always wondered if there was a way of tricking onebrand of charger to charge anothers battery pack? Nothing insane like charging 40v with 20v charger but simply using a Ryobi charger to charge a Ferrex or Parkside pack of the same voltage. Does that sound enough of a challenge for you. Maybe someone has already done this but if they have then I can't find it anywhere. It would be worth a good few coffees from me! Al🙂
The circuitry seems to vary between power packs. The easiest ones to make universal are the cheap eBay tools, since they often have the protection built into the battery.
Video suggestion: battery bms parkside x20v
Have you had any success opening the switch ? I wonder how they realised forward / reverse .. Does the trigger regulate speed ? How did they realise the LED light circuit inside the switch ? Does the circuit detect stalling of the motor ? Could you power the circuit and check if the micro is always on if a battery is present ? Is there any data to be read from the serial tty ? Could you mark some key components with their designator on your schematics, like the mosfets (Q6, Q5 etc..) Ohhoho.. that's a nice puzzle ! :D I won't buy one to find out though ! .. maybe send it to Mike, he'll dissect it for good :D Keep going ! Thanks ;)
Hey big clive I have a capacitive colour changing LED for a kids display wall that I've removed during maintenance would you be interested in it for video purposes? Love the content 👌
Big fan of the electronics breakdowns
Keep it up! from a sparky down under!
It reminds me that I really need to remember where I left the chargers for my two drills (One B&D, one Bosch), kind of need to charge them cos they're both fully discarged, not a good state for lithium packs... :\
I've done the same, and rather leave them to overdischarge I've nudged the voltage up with a current limited supply. But finding the chargers or buying new ones is a better option.
@@bigclivedotcom Just reminded me I have all them chargers from them LED vests, they're nice and limited, of course, theysuffer the same issue of where did I put them....... :D
They've got the impact drill and driver (no battery or charger) on special at my local Aldi, under a tenner each, bargain?
Definitely! especially if you have the 40V batteries & charger. You can get the angle grinder too.
Cheers
It’s really complex, Mr Clive.
Does it need to be? Would you be able to engineer the same result with less components?
I watch AvE as well. He explains some things and others I don’t understand I come here to learn.
The complexity is purely so it can sleep with ultra low current.
@@bigclivedotcom ah okay. AvE mentioned that. That having the battery on the tool and leaving it for long periods will drain it completely dead because the chip draws so little current that the battery’s brain doesn’t stop it. Or something to that effect.
I highly recommend you to watch this ElectroBOOM video about brushed DC motors - _"Brushed DC Motors and How to Drive Them"_
Most likely the green box circuit is doing double duty detecting (w/ the MCU) when the button is pressed or not and also how much the motor is loaded or even if it stalled (all using the OFF time in the PWM driving x2 NMOS).
Like your vids , I need a pcb board for aldi ferrex mitre saw any ideas where I could get one
You may find one on eBay from a parted unit.
👍
test it with oscilloscope ?
0:18 To remove a clunky piece from a pcb, is to use stiff copper wire, bend that wire in a loop arround all pins (like a flatten O) and solder it on both sides of each pin. Then place your solder point in the middel of the row pins on the copper wire, so that heat can flow equal to both sides. After a few minutes, the big piece will fall of the pcb. This trick can also be used to remove PCB-transformers or pulse transformers from SMPS. For this to work you need to crank up the heat temperature and use the largest solder tip for best results.
Where there is a will, there is a way. I was pondering the idea of dipping the pin ends in a molten solder bath, but that still doesn't get them all out as one unit
Incredibly complex for turning a small motor on & off.
Gosh. So much technology just to spin a drill motor. I still have my 120 vac driller that I installed a 25 foot long cord on, because I felt it was getting a resentment about the freedom of my battery operated unit. I'm sure it feels happier now.
Hey BC and crowd, I just uploaded my VERY FIRST YOU TUBE VIDEO!! It's not long. Slightly interesting perhaps. Check it out!!!👍🤓
"It is time." [doom] [doom] [ doom]
MCU marking code?
Low melt solder (Northbridgefix)
A block, or flow, diagram, (digital or analog), can be a good place to start with complex designs.
I'd bet the designers of this circuit started out this way. Or could it have been AI... One wonders...
;)
(To be read in a deep American voice)
"Now showing, Skeeeeematics in color."
(to be read at speed that nobody can understand)
"Other electronic TH-cam videos are available but may not be as good or so clear in detail.
Skeeeeematics is a name spoken by lovable Scots. Videos may contain at least one carbonated vodka drinking Nut and adult content".
🎥 and CUT!
See what I did there I spelt COLOUR - COLOR. It's so you fully immerse yourself.
👍👏👏🍺👋👋
Wow, well done!
I'd like to see what it looks like on an oscilloscope, especially the signal from MCU going to the diode
That amount of complexity is insane. It looks like the work of someone with too much time and nothing else to do. They could've just had all the protections in the battery and made the tool nothing but a (variable speed) switch and a motor. Maybe add a klixon if the user is too stupid to not burn out the motor. All of that circuitry is otherwise unnecessary... except perhaps as a way to shorten the lifetime of the tool.
Ah yes, of course.
It may as well another language
A surface mount 7805 would've been my choice, instead of the crappy Zener diode and 3 resistors.
I guess 78L05 costs more.
DOOD!
wow, totally lost
I wish I understood half of this. Still fun to listen
It looks to me as if the designer "borrowed" blocks of circuitry from other devices and Frankensteined them together. That may be why the LED isn't there- they discovered it didn't work as intended (or did something bad) and rather than redesign a board they'd already made a lot of, simply bypassed it.
just watched Boston Dynamics newest vid. i feel ad for the future.. 15 billion people, with nothing to do, because automation and I has it covered. .. what will they do? sure a few fitters and maintenance workers..for the limited stuff the automation can't self -fix. . but the marjpority wont be doing a thing. how do people get money to buy the stuff the automation has produced ??? #TheIncredibles