Starship Troopers - BOOK REVIEW
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2024
- One of my favorite sci-fi books of all time!
SUBSCRIBE for new videos EVERY WEEK!
Social:
Twitter: @thethomaswrites
Instagram: @thomas_writes_stuff
Reddit: / the_thoma. .
Goodreads: goodreads.com/thomas_writes
When being an anti-communist makes some people throw out accusatuons of fascism, you should question what those people support.
Great review
Thanks! Yes, I feel like Inigo Montoya when people say "fascism".
I don't think that word means what you think it means. 😅 Glad you enjoyed the review!
Exactly!
As a Marine veteran this is my favorite book so far. I’ve read a good many science fiction stories and Heinlein knocked it out of the park with this one. Also, amazing review and I will subscribe to hear some more for you.
Awesome and thank you for your service! I appreciate your compliment and I definitely agree that this is the best of Heinlein's works!
Question, is ST, still the only science fiction book, on the marine corps reading list?
@@michaelconnor1542 no, I believe they took it out a year or 2 back. Now I believe there isn’t any sci-fi books on the MC reading list anymore, but I could be wrong. The list changes from time to time anyways so it might be back on there. I know a lot of veterans still recommend this book even if it isn’t on the list.
If you haven't already, read: The Forever War.
@@eldronjaedike9374 I actually read that one a few months ago and just posted a review a few days ago! Overall, I really enjoyed it when I first read it, but the longer it has sat with me, the more I've come to appreciate just how thematically rich and detailed it is.
Good, well-rounded review. A TH-cam presentation works much better than a written essay for the things you wanted to say about it.
It's nice that Starship Troopers can still make a favorable impression on people born 2-3 generations after the one that Heinlein was writing for!
Thank you very much! Glad you enjoyed it! Yes, it's definitely one of my favorite of all time scifi books! 😁
I have read Starship Troopers at least 20 times, since I was 10 in 1964. Between RAH, A E Van Vogt, Asimov, Laumer, Clement, and many more, I learned a lot by 16.
One of the best books ever written, of any type. It is History, Philosophy and Political Economy, besides fantastic SF.
That's awesome! 😁
I cannot understand how anyone thinks this book promotes Fascism. Just the opposite.
th-cam.com/video/zwFMszIVGko/w-d-xo.html
Pretty good review. I've read the book probably 100+ times over 40 years, and yours and been the best and I feel most accurate. You kind of missed one point, but came close a couple times. The book is also a lecture on civics and civic responsibility.
Besides Verhoeven's "Nazi Declaration", because in the book "Only Veterans" get "Franchise" and can vote and hold office, they automatically think of a Fascist/Military Dictatorship. But it isn't the Military that people are joining to get their Franchise, It's "Federal Service", which includes the military. Remember, his friend Carl goes into R&D, which could be for anything that the government decides (build a better gun or a better tooth brush), or you could end up on a Terraforming Crew hundreds of lightyears away. And there is NO DRAFT, EVER! And like it said in the book, "if you came in here in a wheelchair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to insist on enrolling, they would find you something silly to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe.", but after your term, you would have your Franchise. So I think that leaves Fascist/Military Dictatorships out for the type of Government Heinlein was writing about. Remember, the only "Rights" Civilians don't have compared to Veterans is the vote and the right to hold office, and Service is only 2 years (or until the end of an emergency that can extend your term if they decide they need you). So unless you are actually military and a war does start, odds are that you will only serve your 2 years.
Thank you so much! 😁 That's right, I forgot that they are all volunteers. I also like the fact that Heinlein points out that anyone can have a job regardless of who they are. Appreciate your input! 😁
Book that led me to join the Navy. The moral and philosophical aspects spoke to a younger me.
th-cam.com/video/zwFMszIVGko/w-d-xo.html
The essence of fascism is service to the state. If you do not serve the state you exist outside of it and are subject to it instead of part of it. That's what Heinlein described in Starship Troopers, and it's what Mussolini described in Doctrine of Fascism. As you say, service could be "anything that the government decides".
@lewissmart7915 Every year some people in Congress advocate some kind of law requiring federal service for every citizen. They're almost always politicians on the left.
It's refreshing to see some give this book a fair and accurate review.
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it! Yes, I think too many people just hear the word "fascist" and run without actually reading the contents of the book. Appreciate the feedback!
Great job on the review, the main character grows from being a self serving and immature civilian, only caring about his personal pleasures into a civically minded citizen in the service of his nation, a boy into a man. You feel in a sense, proud of him by the end of the book, knowing all the things he has gone through to get to this point, the mental maturity that he has reached, when he's just about to drop into combat with his company and he radios the ship, "bridge, Rico's Roughnecks, ready to drop".
Thanks! 😁 Yes, it is a very good coming-of-age story for sure!
One of my favourite books with a lot of good ideas in it, particularly the notion of the need to have people put some skin in the game before they can lead. Regarding the objectification of women: although it’s the case that women might be treated as a prize, understand this is a two way street, in which the most successful men are a prize for the women since they are doing the selection ultimately.
Glad you enjoy the book and I agree that the concepts are really intriguing!
I also think what you said is a good way to look at the dynamics between men and women in the story.
To vote you should have to sign up for the draft BUT the draft should be optional.
It's also a story written from the perspective of men coming of age in the armed forces that never get to see women. Because the sexes interact with each other everyday, most of us can see each other as normal beings. Objectifying each other is normal if you put distance between people but keep the desire. You can't know most women as people when you're in the Mobile Infantry, so instead you see them as unattainable objects. Also Heinlein was writing in the '50s, when these attitudes were more common because men and women did live more separate lives back then and had greater social and behavioral differences as a result.
I love Starship Troopers Novel. It's so immersive and at the same time it inspired many scifi genre as a whole LIKE Starcraft, Halo, Warhammer 40k and other famous genre of Scifi known to man.
It centered around the aspect of Humanity against Aliens and more about the Terran Federation's Fascist like Government.
Fun fact the Protagonist named Juan Rico is a Filipino American soldier.
Apparently those who have criticized the book for being "fascist" never looked up the word in a dictionary. Also, it is nice that you actually read the book -- since there are reviews I've seen where that doesn't seem to be the case.
Thanks! And yes, rule one of critique is you actually have to read the thing you are going to criticize. 😅
@@thomaswrites Other than the juveniles novels, I thought that "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" was also good Heinlein. After that his writing went downhill.
Not sure about the fascist part, but it's certainly ultranationalist. I don't think it's a book that promotes good role models for a YA audience.
@@bimsbarkas Its about a military organization. IIRC he knew that the publishers would reject it. Heinlein was a Naval Officer until he caught TB... So he knew his history and the dangers of giving the franchise to adult infants. So Johnny joins the Marines.
No it is very much against fascism.
It is human centric and you can do anything you want . If you want to rule others you have to prove you will put the good of society above your own. So signing up for service ( note service doesn't have to be military, as putin the book , if all you can do iscount fur ona wooly worm we wlll find a way to make sure you are stressed enough to value your service.)
So service is serving society before you can decide how society can run.
If only our current crop of Congress critters could understand that and hold to the oath of office.
I'd argue that it is very surface level and that the solutions proposed would inevitably not work out and end in something like a fascist dictatorship, or at least an oligarchy.
Robert Heinlein was a former leftist, a candidate associated with Upton Sinclair’s California political party. He was quite familiar with Marxism, and knew what he was trashing. He was also quite critical of the post WWII military.
Creating a fictional society to discuss military and political issues was deliberate, and intended to step on multiple sensitive toes. Also, Juan Rico was a Filipino living in Argentina, hardly the casting in the movie.
Most of the people I've encountered who call this book fascist have never actually read it.
They feel entitled and the thought that they might have to actually earn the privileges of citizenship scares them. They want things handed to them.
@@dshuf118j lt. Col. Dubois? Is it you?
It’s a military junta leading a nation that is perpetually at war. It’s ultranationalist and clearly right wing with its military and hierarchy. Dude. That’s the definition of fascism. I say this as someone that read the book in middle school and is still active duty military. It’s fascist. The military is fascist. I don’t think the military can function without being fascist. Don’t delude yourself.
@@dshuf118jThat is a description of fascism though. The idea of earned citizenship through military service.
This is probably the most objective perspective on the book I've seen, though I'm not sure I agree with your perspective on Stranger in a Strange Land. It was making the "Free Love" argument of that era so it's not really arguing that women are trophies but that they're desirable
Also the book isn't arguing for Fascism, it's arguing for Roman Republicanism, which is actually what America was originally designed to be by the Founding Fathers. It's not particularly subtle about this either, he talks about Carthage, senates, the requirement to serve the nation to have a say in how its run. The issue is that, as with now, "Fascist" was a very common attack against people who dont hold a particular worldview. This was opined by George Orwell in 1944 in his essay "What is Fascism?". A full 15 years before Starship Soldier began it's serialized publication in The Magazine of Science Fiction & Fantasy (the title changed when collected and printed in hardcover)
I appreciate the compliment! And yes, I'd agree that the book is not fascist, especially when you look at Heinlein's work as a whole and how he often makes authoritarians the villains in his stories. I'll need to read that Orwell essay as he is one of my favorite authors of all time.
I think my problem with Stranger in a Strange Land is that I am not a fan of the Free Love movement so that bias definitely affected my reading of that book. I may try to read it again in the future and give it a fairer shake. Thanks again for the thoughtful response!
Now, of course, the most recent state at the time of writing directly drawing from the Roman Republic(/Empire) was Mussolini’s Italy. Starship Troopers shows an ultranationalist state run exclusively by the military, and he shows it in a largely positive light.
Good job! I joined the Marines (an all-volunteer military force) during the Korean War and loved Starship Troopers when I later read it. After college I worked in engineering at Douglas Aircraft, McDonnel Douglas & Boeing. Starship Troopers was often discussed over the years, and I don't recall anyone who didn't like it. This was before the movie which satirized and damaged the book.
Thank you so much for your comment and thank you for your service! It always means a lot to know how much veterans appreciate this book and its themes.
This is one of the most fair and excellent reviews Ive seen on this book. It had a massive impact on my life. It promotes the positive aspects of service. It promotes self discipline. The scene were Rico enlists anyway even after he saw the NCO who was missing limbs is excellent. It proved that Rico really wanted to be there despite the risks. Later he's congratulated by that same Sergeant, who's walking around on his futuristic prosthetics, for having the fortitude to join the MI anyway. It's really more what it's like to serve in the military from the perspective of a troop in a combat arms unit. Im a veteran of more than one service and when i was very early in my career it helped me appreciate what our senior leaders kind of dealt with.
Thank you for your compliment! The way that this book has connected with so many veterans over the decades is really awesome to see. The message of service and self-sacrifice is really strong.
You're welcome. In the spirit of Starship Troopers and RAH, you've earned something, a subscriber.
The USE definition of value versus the WORK definition of value is a critical lesson that Heinlein explains in this book.
I don't see women being objectified here. There is a clear recognition that men have desire for women and much of that is triggered visually.
That is less a lowering of women and their status, and more a discussion about how men react to the, and/or should react to them.
If they were bing objectified, only the surface features would be used as reasoning Rico's attraction.
Yet he clearly respects every woman he comes into contact with and is clearly more attracted to Carmencita after he visit at OCS.
However, his respect for her and her desires. That if they are ever to get together, it will be after they both serve full terms.
I don't see the objectification either. It's biology. Besides there is absolute equality in the service between men and women. Rico initially wanted to be a pilot but couldn't qualify while Carmen made the grade.
Fascist? Hardly. *Nobody* who is currently serving in the military...from recruit to field marshal is permitted to even vote. The majority of "veterans" in the book have not seen combat...are not combat troops...and, except in time of war... serve only two years. Everybody, veteran or not has protected rights... with franchise reserved for those who spent at least two years in public service.
Rico is from the Philippines... (South America in the film) but is portrayed in the film as a typical WASP American football hero type.
.
The appalling thing about the film is that it ignored the heart and soul of the book... History, and Moral Philosophy. Of course, since the director did not even read the book... Sort of like Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia"... Most people...even on the Left...believe that it is about the Republic in Spain against Franco. Actually, Orwell served with (and wrote about) anarchists who fought against Franco. Political officers later on in the Republic made troops fight against their allies the anarchists and wipe them out. A price was put on Orwell's head and he was lucky to get out of Spain. But the majority of people who mention Orwell's book...have never read it... -YP-
Moral of the story: read the book before you make a film adaptation 😅
I now have a new book to find an read, That will be my 3rd Orwell book. Thanks.
I think people forget or are simply ignorant of is that this book was made during the baby boomer generation, a time when societies all across the world were liberalizing to be as far away from the Nazi ideology. For example, in teaching and academia, liberals outnumbered conservatives something like 20 to 1. So its no surprise that there was pushback on the book, but being as we are able to look back on that time, we are able to see the overcorrection of ideology that they'd consider works like this controversial when in fact this was more of a statement in opposition to said overcorrection
The form of government depicted in the book is not fascist, and the novel does not advocate it as a preferable from of society, anymore than a novel about Robin Hood would be an advocacy of feudalism.
What Heinlein obviously used as a historical basis for his book, are the Greek-city states and the early Roman Republic. In Athens, all male citizens had a vote. Decisions were made in a form of direct democracy. The other side of citizenship was service, military service. Every Athenian served in the Army and/or Navy, the rich in the frontlines, as they could afford hoplite armor and weapons and the poor as light infantry or even as rowers. Forget "Ben Hur" (both versions). Warships in Antiquity were rowed by free men who were part of the combat crew. So, in Greek city-state democracies, the citizen was also a Soldier, all citizens were Soldiers. In the early Roman Republic, the same system applied, where the rich served in the frontline, but in the Roman system, that service was rewarded by greater political power. But still, no Roman could stand for office without ten years of service or ten campaigns. Our Founding Fathers believed that to be a citizen was to be a Soldier. The militia was made up of those same people that had the political franchise, the People. Those who were relied on to protect and defend the nation, were the ones that made the decisions through a representative form of democracy.
The Federation is a world government (which already turns some people off) that the vets rebuilt after the political and social collapse brought on by the Third World War. There was NO coup. There was no military involvement, the militaries collapsing with the various national governments. The vets had to build a new government, society and economy. They must have done a decent job if Rico's parents can have run a business for a hundred years and gotten rich without ever serving.
This is not a dictatorship. The government is run by vote and is responsible to those with the vote. It isn't an authoritarian oligarchy like Russia or a hereditary political single party authoritarian government like the PRC. It isn't Lenin's, Stalin's or even Gorbachev's Russia or Mao's China or Hitler's Germany or Mussolini's Italy. It isn't totalitarian. Note that while history is taught by veterans, there is no evidence of military training of school children such as the previous regimes engaged in. There is no "gung ho" patriotism being taught either, though certainly, a possibly subjective view is taken about the aftermath of the war and the current situation. Note that in the book, no one outside the military and the police wear uniforms.
Thus, the Federation is a limited franchise democracy, where the vote is limited to a specific group. But in this case, there is no distinction by gender, race, skin color, religion, ethnic background. Only by those that served and those that didn't. Those that didn't served are not oppressed. They have the same civil rights as those that served. They just don't have the vote. Rico's parents are distressed by his decision to enlist. His family is well off, successful business persons who don't see the sense in risking one's life. Other than the vote, there are some government jobs, such as law enforcement that are reserved for vets. I retired after 30 years, was 30% disabled and that gave me a huge advantage in seeking government employment over someone who hadn't served.
Also, the civil government is not the military. The active duty military CANNOT vote. Only the vets. But it is not the military that runs the government, runs the economy, runs the justice system, suppresses civil rights. There is a civil government to which the military is subordinate to. The director of the movie didn't even read the book, he simply took what other people told him and ran with it. How can you have any objective opinion on a book you didn't read?
BTW, service WAS military service. If Rico had not chosen MI, he would have spent his enlistment (note to, an enlistment, not a job) testing environmental suits on Pluto.
One of my favorites and it used to be required reading at West point. Not sure if that's still true but it was when the movie came out. I wish they did something with the skinnys in the movie but it was great in it's own way
Wow! I didn't know that! Yeah I read that the reason they didn't include was the Skinnies is that the writers thought it would overcomplicate the plot. There's rumors that a TV show is in the works which could be a good opportunity to expand on the lore of the book.
@@thomaswrites I'd watch that if it came out. !
@@thomaswrites I don't know. The way a lot of TV and Movies are written today they'd probably screw it up. If they do it right I will be right behind it 1000%. Please don't screw the pooch. 🥺
Yes, it was. 20 years ago it was still on the US Military suggested list.
Heinlein was a liberal, but not a liberal in the sense of what that term has come to refer to today - but more like what is now called a "classical liberal." So, Heinlein was a classical liberal, with some libertarian tendencies. Anyone who thinks the the author of Starship Troopers - the same author who wrote Stranger In A Strange Land - was promoting fascism, just isn't getting it. And don't forget that he also wrote The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress.
An accurate description. 👌
As a child, I was obsessed with the film. As an adult I prefer the book. The change in tone in both is brutal, the satire in the film is so poorly done that it becomes comical.
Meanwhile the book has a less dramatic, realistic and introverted tone.
Definitely agree. I appreciate the movie for what it is, but it definitely is not subtle in what it's trying to say. And yep, the book takes the subject matter much more seriously and feels more tense as a result.
@@thomaswrites The worst thing is that people try to erase the importance of the book. Okay if you hate it, everyone has their own taste. But denying that Starship Troopers was a groundbreaking book is malicious.
Is undeniable that Starship Troopers is a foundation for science fiction as a whole.
I give the book an 8/10.
Cool cover mine just has a bug in a crosshairs
I always thought as a manifisto Heienlein was a massive fan of Eisenhower; And his warning about the military industrial complex
I hadn't looked a ton into Heinlein's voting record, but it wouldn't surprise me at all that he was a fan of Eisenhower as he very much advocated for taking a strong yet measured stance against the Soviet Union and greatly increased America's status as a global superpower.
Starship Troopers is so integrally tied to Cold War politics which is part of what makes it so fascinating to me.
Bugs were "the ultimate communism of the hive".
Thank you for your review! I just finished reading this book today (first time), and I absolutely loved it. This book challenged my thinking because I didn’t agree with everything. My favorite portions were the history and moral philosophy discussions.
Nice! Yes I love books that challenge me. Glad you enjoyed it!
The book has so many concepts that they should have gone deeper with on the movie. The movie is a bit silly.
Please check out my version of the audiobook with sound effects
4:10 Given the book's focus on tactics and logistics (and world-building) I guess that helps explain why it was turned into a war board game in the 1970s. Also, I have always thought that those accusing the book/author of fascism probably never read it and knew nothing about the writer. Like many, he was against totalitarianism which contains both communism and fascism. I think critics felt it promoted militarism and, of course, those types tend to call everything they don't like fascist.
Makes sense. I'll have to see if I can find a copy of the board game as it sounds fun!
Having finally reading this book knowing it was an inspirational corner stone of all late sci fi universes I was glad that I did. It is always good to experience the origin. I was confounded at how deep it went into the themes it portrayed. This was not the first R A H book that I have read and it will certainly not be the last.
This was one sitting on my bookshelf for a while. I was thinking I had aleady known the story from wathcing the film. I was wrong. I think the film did a a great job with the medium. However, The book had a lot more detail that I was looking for with the type of society it had portrayed. All of humanity working together in harmony towards a common goal and the repurcussions of actions on both sides of the humans and the enemy was a fascinating discussion despite the views on its neutral view of the matter.
Nice! Glad you enjoyed it! Heinlein is a lot deeper than I think a lot of people give him credit for.
Heinlein's book was about why sacrifice and being willing to sacrifice for your country is important.
Now I gotta re-read it myself. Greatly summed up though.
Thanks and I totally agree!
No worries, keep up the good work!
To add, also hate how much this book gets equated to fascism. Its an exploration of a society where you must earn your right to vote through service, as something given has no value. He felt people should earn their right through sacrifice so they understand it.
The movie really did damage to it that way. Still love the movie, but the narrative it created about the book being right-wing propaganda is ridiculous.
Take care!
Shit, a creator who actually pays attention to comment. Sorry, saw the notification, thought about the book, and had another thing to add about the movie.
What they could have done is a real take on the book, while adding and showing the flaws to that system, rather than blatantly satirising it.
Adding deeper parts to the characters to show how having veterans vote could be a bad idea due to PTSD. Show how therapy works, or if it does at all. Could have shown more of how trying to apply to become a parent works. Or how any other civil rights work if you don't serve. How it can be corrupted by certain vets with bad motives. How that power structure could break down at certain levels due to certain behavior.
So many ways they could have taken it, criticised the idea, and continued exploring it at the same time.
I get the director grew up through some major trauma. I couldnt imagine his life growing up through the occupied Netherlands in WW2. But that ignorance led to a franchise that had one good satire, and afterwards couldnt be taken as seriously as it should have afterwards.
Whew. I could damn near make my own video on this apparently lol.
Again, take care. Sorry if I seem rambly. Your video was just refreshing to see as a realistic take on how the movie / book are perceived.
Thanks man, and no worries! I try my best to respond to every comment! I appreciate your take and I agree that you can still be critical of the original book without making strawman arguments which (while I love the movie) Paul Verhoven definitely does that.
Great review. I listened to the audiobook, back in 2019. But I don't remember much, I'm thinking of reading it now.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it and hope you get around to reading Starship Troopers again! 😁
Heinlein did the same thing with all his books. He would take ideas and run with it and build a world around that idea while letting you know what he thought would ne the best for people.
Just finished this book for the first time. I’m honestly confused as to why people think it’s fascist and so pro military. Obviously most of the book is characters talking about how important and how great the military is, but it seems so obviously hyperbolic. And when the soldiers actually go into battle, it’s horrifying and nothing goes right. Soldiers are brutally killed left and right. Towards the end, Rico even comments on how the people writing military doctrine haven’t been in combat themselves.
Great review and I agree with everything you said !
Glad you enjoyed the book and the review! Thanks! 😁
I thought the movie was a lot more committed to portraying future human society as authoritarian then the book.
However since it was a satire, the movie actually did a great job in making this potential future look obscene and ridiculous
Yes the satirical angle of the movie is a lot of fun in how over-the-top and overtly warmongering the society is.
You nailed the review. I couldn't agree more.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it! 😁
Well, sir...a slightly divergent point: I never particularly saw an "anti-communist" push or bias to this story. It might have been that it's just so natural a part of the narrative, I didn't see it. What I DID see was the concern on how Juvenile Delinquents were going to be the Downfall of Western Civilization.
This was a serious "thing" in the mid-50s, which manifested in several ways--one of the more famous being the Re-writing of Romeo and Juliet, adding music and turning it into West Side Story. You think that was by accident? It wasn't. I understood this aspect of things when Johnny's History and Moral Philosophy teacher spent so much time on "how to raise a puppy."
Otherwise, you present a balanced and reasonable review of one of my favorite books. Thank you.
Thanks for your insights! 😁
The movie presents a very distorted view of this story.
Thank you Thomas, a good well-reasoned review. I would have pushed back a bit harder about the objectification of women and the fascism nonsense, but you addressed them appropriately. I first read Starship Troopers in junior high in the 1960's and have re-read it regularly since then. I was also an enlisted soldier who went to OCS and obtained my commission so the parts of the book that describe Rico's experience as an enlisted trooper and as an officer candidate really resonate with me now. While there may only be two big battles, the raid on the skinnies and the entire boot camp section contained a bunch of action. Heinlein's world building is what keeps me returning to Starship Troopers. While not as complex or complete (or as long) as JRR Tolkien's Middle Earth, RAH depicts a very believable and consistent vision of a world that developed after a World War III type of conflict. Starship Troopers is a science fiction classic that holds up well for me after 50+ years. I award it five out of five power suits!
Glad you enjoyed the review! It's awesome to see just how much this book resonates with those who've served in the military. It is definitely a book that I'll keep coming back to! 😁
Great review of StarShip Troopers, a book that I first read long ago, and like The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Comeback and reread every couple of years. Not sure I agree with your take on the role of woman in the book. After all that view is presented through the eyes of Johnny Rico who is a horny teenaged male at the start of the book. Carmen Ibanez the object of his affection seemed to me to be smart, dedicated, driven, and sexy. She was going to be a pilot and nothing was going to stop her, not even horny teenage boys. Think if you read Heinlein books you will find plenty of examples of tough, smart, independent female characters. Ranging from Friday in the book of the same name, to Wyoming Knott from The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Seem to recall that in most of Heinlein's juvenile fiction, there are plenty of examples of girls or woman saving the day, as much as the boys or men do. That maybe because his third wife Virginia Heinlein was pretty bad ass in her own right. Look up her degrees and accomplishments, fairly amazing for anyone, even more so for a woman of the era she was born in.
The Verhoeven film is nothing more then his cheap budget rant platform and what really pissed me off. Is instead of giving us the Powered Armor of the Mobile Infantry and the way they deployed from the Rodger Young in the book. We got some cheap hand me down version of the Colonial Marines from Aliens. But I am not bitter or anything. 🤣
Glad you enjoyed the review and I appreciate the feedback! I do really love Heinlein's work as a whole and I now own both Friday and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress so I want to read those in the near future! The way you describe Rico's attraction to Carmen influencing the narrative makes sense as well.
Another thing he notes is that women can sustain more g-force.
Very true!
I'm a fan of both the book and movie, despite the adaptation failure. The book and movie doesn't have any fascism depicted.
The movie is not based on the book. The director didn't read it, because - he wasn't interested and couldn't be bothered with what an author wrote'. He wanted to use the title to tell his "narrative" ...
For sure! I like the movie for what it is but I don't really consider it an adaptation.
The director didn't but it's clear one or more of the writers were fans. The school scenes ("why service works" and "violence is the basis of all governments") were almost verbatim from the book and were not undercut to look dumb.
I need to reread it.
Yes, it’s definitely a book that should be reviewed. Especially when looking at current events. There are some timeless concepts. Check out my version of the audiobook with sound effects.
Fun Fact: It is on the USMC Commadant's reading list.
Yes! It's pretty cool 😁
very engaging, helpful review!
Thanks!
Fantastic review thank you
No problem! Thanks for the compliment!
Girls also have a better g tolerance.
Always important to remember that “it promotes fascism” and “it’s very patriotic” aren’t necessarily opposing views.
That is true, however, in this case of this book, I do think Heinlein makes a distinction between the two.
The book is quite prophetic about our society and our current problems.
Agreed! Heinlein was truly ahead of his time in terms of predicting issues such as societal complacency and lack of support for one's nation.
Its on the Recommended reading list for Marine recruits by order of the Commandant of the USMC
A fantastic description of one of my favorite reads.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it! 😁
I used to be a very big fan of Heinlein and 'Starship Troopers' but my liking has faded over the years. Even the Idea of 'Service for Franchise' I now regard as a pipe dream. A society like Heinlein's would soon devolve into a 'family oriented' aristocracy. A few families and their networks would run end up running things. Members of the aristocracy would still enlist but the people in charge would make sure they got cushy jobs far far away from the sharp end. Lesser mortals would still get the franchise but without the backing of the aristocrats would have no effect on policy. That is if they left service alive. The aristocrats might start and keep wars going to make sure lessers did not survive.
It's what humans do when they get power.
When it comes to military SF I prefer David Drake. He'd served a year in-country with the 11th Cavalry Regiment, The Blackhorse. He's been at the sharp end and his stories reflect that.
I can definitely see that in practically, this is the kind of society that Heinlein's ideas would breed. He was certainly an idealist in terms of his views of how a veteran-run society would operate.
I've got a couple David Drake books sitting on my shelf and I plan on getting to them at some point.
barnes and nobles arabian night on the shelves.. I love that book and it's illustrations are incredible.
Nice! Hoping to get to that one in the future. 😁
@@thomaswrites Misread your comment initially lol. It's great. But.. it's also very much a product of its time. A collection of stories hundreds some maybe thousands of years old. Translated by a British guy in the 20th century. So expect a lot of stuff that might be unacceptable to us today.
@@3choblast3r4 makes sense. I think its always important to look at older works within the context of when and where they were written. Eager to check it out! 😁
I have no idea why people view this book as controversial. Or fascistic. That's such a stupid opinion that isn't based on anything concrete.
I do get why the book is divisive, but I do agree that the book is certainly not pro-fascism. Heinlein was deeply anti-authoritarian and that is seen through his work.
This book is on the USMC Commandant's reading list.
Wonderful shirt and fantastic utilization of vocabulary. Also, impressive review.
Thanks! 😁
Thomas! You are absolutely fab at breaking down the nuance of this book, and I haven't even read it! I watched it a ton as a kid, and again recently. I recall the general consesus being that the film is a satire of the book. From looking on goodreads, I think you've managed to bridge the gap between both parties and I appreciate your moderation for the literature as a product of the time. I enjoyed The Forever War and I feel like you may have sold me on reading the book and dealing with the... "ickier" parts? The controversial parts I suppose. I was afraid it was going to be a big preachy propaganda piece.
Would love to see you spice up your videos with some minor editing, would have been great to see you utilise clips from the movie to draw from and directly show the comparison, but I think that's my ADHD screaming for some flashy images and eye candy to go along with your wonderful narration. Stay blessed my guy, earned a cheeky sub.
Thanks for your feedback Cassidy and I'm glad you got something out of the video! 😁 I have been looking at ways to spice up my videos so it's not just me talking the whole time. 😅 I actually just finished reading The Forever War and plan on putting out a video for it in a couple weeks! 😁
@@thomaswrites no worries at all, I can really see you have your heart in this but at the same time perhaps feel a little unsure. It makes sense with the saturation of content on TH-cam - just remember that any audience at all is a great job as long as you're captivating, which you are!
You put a lot of effort discerning between good/bad and I appreciate you didn't hold a stance of absolution in this video or simply parrot popular narratives. I imagine, to the same credit, you are doing so with your own work. So here is your affirmation that your opinions are rich, detailed and worth sharing, so sell yourself with confidence! The meat and bones is all there, you just have to tart it up a bit more with some gusto and a bit of editing to tart it up in a neater package, you'll carve your niche on the platform in no time :)
The real Forever War is the internal process of creation!
I just want a video game based on the book not the movie
I'd be down for that!
Also, Starship Troopers was the 1st treatise on *terrorism* as a form of warfare.
Nice!
Thankyou 😊
Good review
Thanks!
...very, Very loosely based on the books first couple pages which is Chapter ONE out of like 40 chapters
Sargon did a video essay on the movie and as the fellow TH-camr Arch has always a stipulated the Highline book is a highly misunderstood because people don't understand what fascism actually is sadly even Wikipedia and other information assets do not have the understanding of a fascism have basically and the terrible problem that fascism and communism are both related from the liberal left side of politics meanwhile a Starship Troopers Federation is marketed more as a Libertarian Utopia
I did think Sargon's video on Starship Troopers was pretty informative and did a good job of addressing a lot of strawman arguments made by people who haven't read the book. Once again, the fact that Paul Verhoeven did not read the book explains a lot as to why the movie misunderstands the message of the original source material.
Thanks for this! Saw the movie many years ago. The ridiculous nature of the film put me off reading the book, I’ve now changed my mind! Thank you 🙏🏼
Sure thing! I'm very happy that this motivated you to read the book! I hope you enjoy it! 😁
Anyone who says Starship Troopers promotes fascism (or National Socialism, which is not the same thing) understands nothing about totalitarianism of any stripe.
Verhoven was (and I would bet still is) a lazy fool. His decision to "parody" a book he hadn't read is no different from the way that many religious folks treat atheism (or vice versa). "We don't have to understand it; we know it's bad and that's enough." That movie is the most egregious sort of strawman argument.
The more Heinlein you read, the more you see that he explored different points of view and philosophies in different places. The world of Delos David Harriman is different from the world of Johnny Rico, Lazarus Long, or Podkayne Fries. Were there commonalities? Of course. But to assume that you know anything about Heinlein from reading one of his books is at least fraught with peril.
Decent review and nice to see a serious review of something not written in the last 2 years.
Appreciate the input and thanks for the compliment! I definitely agree that it's disingenuous to criticize this book without looking at the breadth of Heinlein's work.
Umm…the story is literally about a military junta that runs a nation at war. The military has supreme authority. It’s a fascist government. By definition. I read the book. I’m active duty military still. It is what it is. Militaries need to be fascist to work. It’s a great book but if you don’t see the clear fascism, then you don’t actually know what fascism is.
@@LB-yg2br "Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy."
So lets examine those things one by one:
Far-right: meaningless. Far-right is an epithet used by people for whom "far-right" is an insult. It's content-free. (Note that the Fascisti in Italy were a leftist, socialist movement.)
Authoritarian: Definitely not. There was no requirement for anyone to follow any particular ideology, make or avoid any particular statements, or any of the other features of authoritarianism.
Dictatorial leader: No evidence whatsoever of anything like that.
Centralized autocracy: I'd characterize the system as a distributed autocracy, which is a bit weird, but then the government in the book was a bit weird.
Militarism: Not particularly, at least before the bugs attacked. Military was one of the forms of acceptable public service, but certainly not the only one. And it was explicit that the military had no political authority (voting was a privilege only extended after service was complete.)
Forcible suppression of opposition: No evidence for this. Such opposition might have arisen if this weren't a novel, but it's certainly the case that nobody was arrested for vocal opposition to the form of government.
Belief in a natural social heirarchy: Possibly, in the sense that the government only gave a franchise to people who had exhibited a willingness to serve society.
Subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race: Definitely, but not in the usual way, since the individual interests were only subordinated voluntarily.
Strong regimentation of society and the economy: Definitely not the economy and the society was only regimented in the sense that you had to submit to regimentation to gain the franchise.
That's not fascism. It's also probably not workable with actual people, but such is fiction.
Currently in the U.S Army and I do learn towards the right to vote should be earned. If your not willing to die for said rights of the citizenship then do you truly care about it?
I've thought that way even before joining up many years ago. I also do think that the right to vote could slso be earned in say the medical field etc. A field that actually shows willingness to help your country and its citizens through actions instead of words.
Firstly, thank you for your service! While I don't necessarily agree that people should have to earn the right to vote, I definitely agree that military service gives people a greater sense of what freedom actually cost.
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country," is an attitude we sorely need right now.
The people who don't understand it always show that they didn't read it before they finish their posts.
They write things that are not true. They omit things that are true. Heck, I've had them deny quotes from the book were in the book.
And it's clear at least one of the writers of the movie did read the book. The high school sections are nearly verbatim from the book and are not made to look stupid.
Yeah, it's pretty annoying when people criticize a book without reading it.
Good book. Great review. Nice video, man
Thanks! 😁
I love this book, great review.
Thanks! I appreciate it! 😁
You say you don’t think Starship Troopers is an ode to fascism. But then state he is critiquing “Unpatriotic” citizens, not understanding the “cost of freedom” or “really caring about their citizenship” The ideal of earned citizenship and blind patriotism is the basis of fascism. Without that fascism is just authoritarian rule.
I’m not critiquing the book as I haven’t read it yet. But your review itself. Few things I notice in your choice of words. 1, you seem talk of capitalisms fight with communism being a major influence. Granted that is important to the time the book was written. But for capitalism to be within the book wouldn’t there need to be a resource that needs to be extracted? E.g. the Spice in Dune being a direct reference to oil. Does that happen in Starship Troopers? The Cold War is all about which superpower will have control of the planets resources, with the use of military power.
Where Communism is about the division of labour and the sharing of resources with the people. Again is that directly reference in the book? I understand that the bugs have a collective society mirrors one aspect of communisms collectivism.
2, your descriptive used for patriotism, freedoms and citizenship. You use “The problems of” unpatriotic citizens. It comes across as you agreeing with fascist ideals. I personally agree with these ideas. Is this a case of you agreeing with fascism but not likening the label?
Thank you for watching the video and giving your input!
On the subject of capitalism vs. communism, there is not a lot of discussion on economics in Starship Troopers. However, the anti-communist sentiment is clearly seen in how the bugs are described as well as when Rico's teacher gives a lecture on the failings of Marxism.
"We were learning, expensively, just how efficient a total communism can be when used by a people actually adapted to it by evolution; the Bug commisars didn't care any more about expending soldiers than we cared about expending ammo."
As for whether the book promotes fascist ideals and what I agree with, I think there needs to be a distinction made between fascism and patriotism. While I wouldn't say that I agree with "earned citizenship" I do think that there is something to be said for the need of citizens to understand the cost of freedom and the right to vote.
Heinlein consistently described himself as being libertarian in his worldview. People often accuse him of fascism because of his conservative takes on the military and citizenship, but then in Stranger and a Strange Land, he is much more liberal on the subjects of marriage, sexuality, and organized religion. As such, I don't think its fair to categorize Heinlein as a fascist when his works consistently place individual liberty as the highest value.
I hope this explains it well and I would encourage you to read the book for yourself and come to your own conclusions.
Ah ok thank you for the clarity. When it comes to patriotism and fascism they are very much two sides of the same coin in my opinion. Granted Heinlein is socially liberal for sure. But a military run ruling class most certainly is shared with fascism. Having free speech is meaningless without political capital. All you are is someone shouting at the clouds. You can be ignored as you aren’t a military vets.
Cost of freedom and the right to vote is most certainly fascist in ideal. You are saying that basic human rights should be earned, why? So in this world if you are disabled and unable to enlist you not able to be a citizen. Would you agree with that? Why should freedom be earned? A person can’t choose to be born. If a slave has a child does that mean the slave owner own that child? By the same logic their freedom needs to be earned.
Why does a military rule need to exist but to prop up the central government. Having an “other” that “wants you dead” are ideals used by authoritarians to keep power. Used heavily within fascism. Granted this is how The USA and its allies are directly operating now. Is that not a core ideal of the book too?
Heinlein has a very seductive writing style. It's very matter of fact, and needs to be unpacked.
Once you do that, yes, his "greatest strength, his indirect world building", often is fascist. Also, the way he writes interactions with women is deeply creepy.
So amazed Robert (or his family) didn't sue Games Workshop because of their Warhammer 40000 lore. Warhammer fantasy and 40k are such ripoffs
Can definitely see the connection. Don't think it's to the point of plagiarism.
I think Starship Troopers is actually a warning for what a society solely focused on the military and war would look like.
I can definitely see that! I've heard other people come away with a similar interpretation and I think that is a very valid reading of it for sure.
Thanks mate i`ve only seen the movie
Sure thing! 😁
If you want a shoot them up go with David Drake s hammer s slammers
I've had this one recommended to me a number of times as a good pulpy action series so I'll have to check it out!
@@thomaswrites it is a lot darker and more grim with black humor. Lots of my mom's friends came back from nam very broken so I get it. Reading this and knowing them helped me understand my friends who came back from the war on terror.
Also anything by john Ringo is dark . His zombie booke " black tide " are good.
Travis s Taylor with Ringo and by himself is a fun time.
Good overview.
Thanks! I appreciate it! 😁
An interesting approach to adapting a novel. Verhoeven: " I want to adapt this novel. I think it is a terrible book and I detest every idea in it".
That about sums it up. 🤣
"So I'm not going to read it"...
Based on
Did you watch my explanation in the video?
I read it know for the second time and i like it.
Back in 1997 i read it for the first time in the age of 17 and was disappointed, because i was so exited of the movie.
Now i know that i was like Johnny at this time, didn't know anything about the world, politic was a boring thing etc.
But i never understood why they call this book as "facist", because the whole world is under one flag.
All people, irrelevant where they from or what gender, can(!) serve.
They don't have to!
Maybe it is interesting to know for people outside of Germany that the scene where Mister Rasczak is explaining why they fight is totally new dubbed in German language.
In the original he says:
“This year we explored the failure of democracy, how the social scientists brought our world to the brink of chaos. We talked about the veterans, how they took control and imposed the stability that has lasted for generations since.”
In the German dub he say:
“Our topic this year was the political development since the turn of the millennium and how extraterrestrials have influenced this development. We talked about the bugs, how they attacked the earth and killed thousands of our ancestors.”
It's turned into an other direction, like what the censors didn't want to hear you.
As a German guy (Berlin) who was 9 when the Berlin Wall falls back in 1989, i see that Dubois statements about Marx are right.
Based on his books they try to make an apple pie out of a sand cake.
And Dubois itself said that Marx was right in some points, but if he would had more foresight the world wouldn't had such great losses of life.
Also Dubois statements about the failing and collapsing of societies is a good prediction of the future for a book that was released 64 years ago, in 1959.
The part about raising kids and dogs is very familiar to that what i see here today.
Teenage kids with a large crime register are send back home, cause the judges don't punish them so they could learn a lesson for life.
In the book a guy is hanged for killing a girl and here they send a rapist and killer back home, because "He is on a good way to become a normal citizen!" (no joke).
That's it where the part about the social experiments kick in, but i think we see it all over the western world.
As a former paratrooper i see the military part is well written and good declared.
Like Private Joker in >Full Metal Jacket< Heinlein explains also very well the the army "Doesn't want robots" as soldiers. They want humans.
Sure, for some people this book might be controversial, especially at these "fast offended" times, but it could be a torch or a warning for the future.
I have enjoyed your review.
Best wishes from Germany and good luck to your channel!
That's awesome how you are able to connect with the book's themes and tie it to the history of your own country. To me, it is such a sign of great writing when people from many different countries and backgrounds can all connect with the same material. It's interesting to hear how the film was changed in Germany as well as how you can connect Dubois' statements to the fall of the Berlin Wall. Thanks for your thoughts and glad you enjoyed the review!
this one is one of the books they'll want to burn
Ummm… the villains of _Stranger in a Strange Land_ is the leadership of a fundamentalist Christian church…or basically the same people running the current Republican Party.
The Fosterite Church is one of the antagonists of the book, but there is also the president of the World Federation who is a villain as well.
I would describe the Fosterites as a Christian cult since they openly advocate for activity that the Bible condemns.
The book is wonderful; the film is awful.
I would say that I do appreciate the film for what it's going for, but you have to go in knowing that it's not trying to faithfully adapt the book. I enjoy it as a movie rather than as an adaptation, but I also get why people wouldn't like it.