Why didn’t GCN approach Liv for their take? Even if the prevailing opinion is that women specific bikes are nonsense it would be nice to hear the counterpoint from the biggest manufacturer of them.
Your guest, Tom, hit it on the head when he said women will improve descending when the bike fits properly. I switched to a LIV Lagma and the difference in my descending was night and day! Shoulder width is also key also. I highly recommend LIV.
Note that while you often may hear than men and women have different leg length to torso length ratios, this is not true. When you take populations of men and women *that are the same height* they have the same average torso/leg ratio. So you don't need gender specific frame geometry generally, you just need bikes well designed for short people. And the industry avoiding smaller wheels makes this hard.
Some of the best-fitting small bikes I've ever seen had 26" wheels whether the riders were men or women. The entire "women-specific" thing in cycling is nothing more than marketing bullspeak. The only "woman-specific" thing my wife (ex-pro back-in-the-day) uses is a sports bra!
Being the owner of a short torso and narrow shoulders I've always got on well with women's specific bikes. I'm not against the idea of a nonspecific frame though, as long as a variety of lengths can be offered as well as height. At least we've moved on from the days of women's bikes having to feature pink or floral motifs...thank goodness!
I think it's vital that smaller bikes are fitted with more appropriate components (650b wheels, 36 or 38cm handlebars as opposed to 40, shorter cranks etc) to allow for bikes to have uncompromised geometry and handling characteristics compared to their larger sized counterparts, as opposed to the concept of a women's specific bike in and of itself. And allowing scope for swapping components easily to tailor a fit to the rider.
As a female rider, my biggest beef is the shrink it and pink it situation that happens. Especially with jerseys. They are just not made to fit the female shape. And, as a 5'9" athletic/slim framed woman, the torso length to waist width ratios need to accommodate more body frames. Not everyone is shaped like a 12yo child. I continually have to purchase men's jerseys to avoid pink and purple and get a longer torso length that doesn't add extra width.I have tried searching out women's specific kit, but living in Canada, many companies do not ship here either. I hope as cycling increases in popularity there will be enough demand for better fitting women's kit from head to toe that manufacturers will listen to.
My wife has just bought her first Liv. In fact it's her first brand new bike......she absolutely adores it. She was the W/kg queen anyway amongst our group of 9 regular riders (1 woman, 8 men). Us 8 guys are now all in trouble! Well done Liv for recognising the market and creating a super product
Second video regarding this. While it's a SUPER important topic, I've noticed you havent actually spoken to anyone from a brand that is doing women's specific bikes. So you're getting one side of the story from brands/shops that dont carry any of them, and are obviously not going to push business away. Food for thought. Give LIV a ring... I'm sure they would be happy to chat about the endless amounts of R&D they've put into their product.
I am 5’3” on a good day and ride a Canyon Ultimate in 2XS with 650b wheels and I’m really happy with the fit. I love that Canyon has such a wide range of sizes, and while they’re certainly not the only manufacturer to offer that range, I hope to see more manufacturers doing the same. It’s nice to have more choices!
As a salesperson in the bike industry I think one of my biggest frustrations is brands not offering enough sizes. I am a man and about 5 foot 6 and honestly struggle to find things that fit. Fortunately I am inside the industry to be able to fix the problem. If you are new to the sport it can be awfully intimidating when you aren’t a medium man riding a medium bike in medium clothes and I think the bike industry lets people at both ends of the hight spectrum down.
I do recall an interview with the owner of Crust Bikes on Path Less Pedalled, he made a run of small road bikes sized for 24" wheels and they sold like hot cakes.
Depends entirely on the person in question. Plenty of taller Dutch Women can fit on mens bikes just fine with only minor contact point adjustments. Womens specific saddles are a good recommendation though, since their hip geometry is quite different for most but not all! Small bike geometry is often a compromise as is bike geometry for tall people over 1.95. What also concerns me a lot is that a lot of bikes tend to no longer be made in the extra large or extra small sizes. A 61(XL) equivalant is where most brands max out.
Thanks for the stellar content again gcn and Manon! I'm a guy and I was fascinated throughout! The bike industry is obsessed with male riders and caters to this niche to everyone's detriment. Reminds me a bit of the videos that gcn years back did with Emma Pooley and her struggle to get a bike that fit. She opted for 650B wheels back before it became popular. I love that you covered many bases: custom frame builder who understands kinetics, bike shop owner, and a big bike brand as well as Manon's lived experience as a pro racer. I will let women's voices speak up for what they want to see Manon investigate next, bit rest assured, I WILL be watching anything you produce on this topic next! It's so important that we start taking smaller stature/weight athletes seriously. You want evidence? You just have to watch poor Hank struggling with Conor's 36" wheeled monster bike! Let's get bikes that fit everyone in the hands of those that need them! Eagerly awaiting the next video!!
I would like to see more 650 wheels available. Budget brands and entry level bikes don't use these so to standardize volume parts purchases. More weight over the rear wheel keeps the ride from being skittish.
The industry would not like that. It would mean they would also have to expand the range of tyres available and anyone can see they are already trying to reduce the variety and corral everyone into using the same sizes.
That's a good question. I'm training on a Bianchi with a men's setup because I'm just not comfortable on a women's bike. I prefer the larger tires , longer bar, and longer Crank but the issue is, and this is going to sound weird, because it's my height on the ground, once it's raised up on my indoor trainer I have to get a step ( or a paint can) to get on the bike to ride. That drop bar would be magical and less invasive in that one instance. Thank God for shams.
I bought my wife a custom Seven Ti in 1997 and she is still riding and loving it. It was designed with 650 wheels (Spinergies originally) and just fits her perfectly it seems. With new components (and wheels) it is good to go for many more years. I also bought her a lovely small Pinarello with 700 wheels two years ago and it is nice but she is never as comfortable as when she is on the Seven.
Just need a variety of sizes for everyone. Most of us will change the saddle anyway and most of the time even 'women's' bikes have handlebars that are too wide.
Great video Manon! Would love another more in depth one about how women can start to customise their setup more, this video mentions frames, stems and cranks, but I'd love to know more about the how/where to start: I'm 5'7 with an XS Canyon (though Canyon recommends me an M which is way too big), with an 80mm flipped stem and 38 handlebars... but I didn't know to do that myself, so more of these detailed 'learner/starter' vids would be awesome please! Also maybe one comparing a Liv and a similar Canyon would be great to see too with what the differences are!
I like women's specific bikes but that is mainly for the colors that are offered. Since I am rather tall 5'10" or 178cm I ride a bigger bike and most women's bikes are to small for me. I do need to get a better saddle, and shorten the stem just a bit and get a narrower handle bar but that is about it.
I have to ride a 44cm frame, which took me a year to find. My local Specialized store just happened to post an IG story selling a Diverge so I snapped it up! I always get comments I should buy a Liv, but I love my bike and with a bike fit session, it fits me perfectly. Thanks for the video!
Great video! I (151cm) have a Canyon gravel bike in 3XS with 650b wheels and it's geometry is completely different to the average/large size. It looks a bit like an old German shepherd with hip problems, probably the only way to combine such a low seatpost with wheels of that size. However, I've seen Liv road bikes of a similar size that fit 700c wheels without the geometry looking off, so maybe I'll try them in the future. But then again, I'm lucky enough to be able to afford a bike like this. If someone my size was looking for a more affordable option, they'd probably have to go for a youth bike, as most of the big companies that sell cheaper bikes don't carry such small sizes. I think that for most women the possibility to choose gender-specific parts such as saddles, handlebars... and a wide range of sizes would be enough.
Liv bikes do a good women's marketing, but they don't cater well for smaller riders, especialy if they need a shorter than average reach for a XS. I am definitely on the long legs/short torso, and even the Liv endurance/gravel ranges are too long for me (I'm 163cm tall). I only found 4 mid range models in the market to fit me (Trek, Specialzed, Canyon and LOOK) without the need for a 6cm stem (Trek, Specialzed, Canyon and LOOK). I went for the LOOK due to availability at the time and I am very happy with the fit and frame versatility, but if I ever need another bike, it will be a custom frame. You will struggle to find a frame for your size other than Canyon, I think.
@@nluisa Interesting... I never would have thought that, especially since they claim that their bikes fit people as small as 145cm (XXS). I compared their Devote 0 (XS) to my Grizl 7 1by (3XS) and found that the Devote's stack was higher (523/512), the reach was slightly longer (380/372) while their stem and top tube lengths (50, 524) were about the same and the seat tube length was shorter (390/402). As someone with 0 knowledge of bike geometry, this doesn't seem like a big difference... but I'm curious to see how it translates to my position on the bike. Maybe I'll visit my local Giant store and see if they have any Liv bikes in XS. I also took a look at Liv's road bikes and interestingly enough the stem on their !XXS! road bike (Avail Advanced 1) was 70mm which is quite confusing to me and supports what you said about them not catering well to people with shorter reach and longer legs. I'm not quite sure about my own leg to torso ratio but it's probably somewhere in the middle/ on the long torso side as I have no problem reaching the handlebars even though I'm a little shorter than the suggested height.
@@paula_carolina I bought a Liv avail Ar 1 in XXS with 152cm and an inseam of 70cm. The reach and the 25mm offset seatpost is a Problem now. I will change the seatpost and the stem for 50/60cm. Very disappointing...because right now I am to stretched when I want to reach the hoods.
@@maryfalke2032 That's a shame! Hope you can ride more comfortably after you change them! My Canyon's standover height is 70,9cm, according to the spec sheet, but I can comfortably stand over it. Even though my inseam was measured at 68cm. So I took another look and Canyon actually measures the stand-over height further forward than Liv. I got out my trusty tape measure and it's only 66cm when you measure in the same place.
Great video Manon and I can’t wait to see more videos on this topic! I’m interested to know more about 650b vs 700c wheels and if there’s much of a performance difference. As a 5’2 female I should probably opt for 650b wheels however I’ve always gone for 700 - perhaps slightly out of stubbornness but also because some people say 650b don’t roll as well? Not sure how much truth there is in that though…
They should just make "short reach/high stack" versions of the frames and put unisex paint schemes on them. A short reach version would be a good seller for many shorter men as well. This would reduce inventory costs for bike shops. My custom steel bike is actually designed around a woman's frame geometry, but I'm a man of 170cm with a slightly shorter torso than average.
I own a unisex Bianchi and a Liv Langma and far prefer my Liv. I've had bike fits on both so I know they are set up correctly but the Liv just feels so much more comfortable. I think it's ultimately down to the individual as to what suits them, but I'm personally glad there are still women's specific options available. Great video but it would have been good to speak to a brand like Liv and hear their perspective too.
Excellent video. I ride a 48 inch Diverge, ordered the Women's version and the Men's came in to the store. Wouldn't have noticed a difference and would have needed to make the same personalization on either model. Still love it! Would love to see a video on cycling clothing specific to women. That's the one area where I have the hardest time. Everything is made for smaller women and us who are a bit larger struggle to find quality kit that fits us.
Sounds to me like its really about Geometry, regardless of gender, I'm 6' tall and know many guys that are between 5'-2" -5'-6". smaller men could benefit from smaller frames just as a woman at the same height and limb length. six footers like me appreciate mountain bikes with a lower- sloped top tube, which some would consider a woman's frame. so, is it not more about geometry? However, women do prefer a specific saddle, which is more or less an preference item. I think we just need more frame sizes that take into account reach and wheel size without referring to them as being gender specific. Great topic Manon! (please excuse the typos).
As a 5ft1 (154cm) cyclist, I haven't found a 'unisex' bike that goes small enough for me. My only option is a women's specific Liv in XS. Even then, they have standard width handlebars an regular levers which are too big for my hands. Bit of a half arsed effort in my opinion.
Pinarello has the best fit for short riders. Try to find A Pinarello Paris. As someone who's 4'11 my bikes are Pinarello Paris 43, specialized Sl8 44, trek Domane AL 44, and Cannondale optimo 44. For me the most important thing is having a bike with a low enough stack.
From what I’ve read/heard, it would massively help if you could choose the following five things when you order a new bike: - Frame size (small bikes having 650B wheels) - Stem Length - Handlebar width - Saddle - Crank Length It seems like that would address 99% of fit/comfort issues for women and men!!
I don't understand why brands like Canyon don’t do this. It shouldn’t be difficult for a direct to consumer brand. I’d pay a premium for this instead of buying extra accessories and having to work on my brand new bike.
As a man watching the video, I think just smaller frame sizes with 650b wheels sounds like the logical thing to focus on, so you don’t end up with unpleasant compromises on handling. But hopefully a lot of women watch and comment on this video. I’m curious what they think. And that’s what’s important obviously.
@reidwrites I rode a Pinarello Galileo 52 for about 15 years, then it didn't fit me anymore. Got the Liv XS last year. Two years ago for gravel got a Trek Checkpoint ALR 5 XS and it's great too .
I’m 172 cm tall and have a Canyon WMN Ultimate in size S. So no need for smaller wheels. Still, I am very happy with my women-specific bike as I also tried their unisex version of the same bike when I visited Canyon in Koblenz, and I felt much more comfortable on the women-specific frame and set-up. Going by their online sizing, I was right in the middle of XS or S, so thought I’d better travel there to test ride before ordering online. I am very glad I did. Interestingly, in the unisex model, the XS frame fit me better. Not sure what to do now if I want to get a new one. Will probably be travelling over again, just to make sure…
Everyone body is different. Depends what suits you and what your budget is. I’m up to my 3rd liv owner for my road bike but my grave is a Kelly with some small adjustments Comfortable and out riding that is the aim 🎉
When I purchased my Specialized in 2019, my shop’s staff told me that was the last year they expected to see “mens” and “womens” bikes offered. I’m not sure that ended up happening as quickly as they thought, but looking at the major “serious” brands I think I agree with what Manon and her guests have said here now. I think it would even be in brands’ best interests to do away with gender in their stock, as it reduces the number of “models” that need to be tracked and managed (even if the parts are identical, in some part of the logistics chain they need to be separated, at least at the end-item level). It might even help justify having larger variations in a product’s range, as it might remove some stigma for smaller men buying smaller components that would previously been marketed as “women’s”. That said, there is a market segment that is still firmly in the “mens/womens/boys/girls” mode - brands that you would find at, say, Walmart. That is, bicycles sold by non-cyclist sellers for non-cyclist customers, where style and low price reign supreme, rather than performance and durability. And the need to draw customers out of that segment into that where the bike shop lives remains as strong as ever.
Ugh, that's funny and also a bummer. ;) I have a Liv Pique that's green, and a Liv Devote that's off-white. Both are insanely sexy bikes and get compliments from men and women, for what it's worth.
I have very long legs and a short torso. My Merckx Milano 72 large women's bike fits me very well. It's less about gender and more about fit, as Tom said, I think. the Merckx has a short frame with a long head tube. My other bikes have to have endurance geometry as well as short stems. Any regular racing bike has me far too stretched out or too large a drop from saddle to bars. My old steel Falcon is a 60cm but the frame is short enough for me. Modern bikes seem to be longer for the same size.
Very interesting topic, thanks for that. About the sloping top tube for women's bikes, my girlfriend appreciates those, not because she's cycling in a skirt/dress but because it's easier to hop on versus swinging your leg over the frame. That said, the sizing thing is spot on. As a below average height man myself (168cm), it wasn't until I got a XS Canyon that I realized I've always been riding frames too big for me !
When I was in the bike shop business it was more often the case that women were more difficult to fit than men. And not just the very small women, that is another subject altogether. We did sell a bike that used 650b front wheel that allowed keeping the overall frame proportional. This greatly facilitated getting the reach and stack correct. I do recall many more cases of women having issues with frame geometry than men. It was usually tall women with very long legs or very short men and women that were the hardest to fit.
Trying to get back into cycling after a 30 year hiatus (14 to 44 years old), and immediately found my old bike - Univega Alpina mtb - to be exactly agonising, nothing as where i wanted it or where i could get comfortable with; putting your back out 5 times makes at difference, apparently. Measuring where i actually wanted/needed things to be to be able to ride for more than 10 minutes, and every geometry diagram i ended up being closet to was a "women's" mtb. Everything was too long, with too-low bars, and pedals that were too under the seat. The perfect bike turned out to be a Carrera Intercity folder. Every time i look at it i keep thinking if the frame was non-folding, with a more regular downtube, and gearing to match a road bike, they'd sell loads of them.
We really need to stop saying that "women" need this or that. I was told for years that "women" have wider sit bones and need a wider saddle. Turn out, I need a 132 for my preference of an aggressive position and narrow hips. Lets all look at the individual size, shape, and riding style before their gender
My first bike was a 2nd hand Specialized Dolce Elite. It was some time before I realised it was a ladies bike. I didn't have a clue about size. I didn't even know how to use the shifters. Luckily, with my short legs, it suited me quite well and is still in use on my turbo. I've done over 13K miles on it.
Its interesting, in MTB steeper seat tubes and slacker heat tubes bring previously large sizes down a lot, my 5ft8 wife can ride my XL Marin Alpine Trail with a 1300mm wheelbase no problem, reach is so much shorter then it used to be, I wonder if that would work for road cycling frame sizes
bike makers need to be flexible with the shops around stems, seats, bar width, cranks. What's on the spec list isn't always what people want. I changed cranks, stem and bar width on the last two bikes I bought because they came with too long, too wide, too short, etc. I ate that cost because there was no accommodation from the maker/shop.
Great point. You can swap out all kinds of components to get your bike to the perfect fit, but those costs add up. Finding the "perfect enough" fit out of the box is #goals.
I am 6'4" and I have the other issue, trying to find bike big enough to fit me without having 18" of seat pole sticking out. There are a number of companies that make larger bike but not in all styles. I typically need at least a 61cm frame.
I’ve always been more comfortable with my WSD bikes over the years. I now stick with Liv since Trek arrogantly stated that women don’t need a WSD frame. I think there is credible proof that women apply power differently than men and this does impact frame geometry
I can't say if women's specific bikes are required, although saddles are a fairly obvious place where women might need a different shape from men, but IME manufacturers need to be more aware that not all of their customers conform to the long leg, short torso image of a professional cyclist. Taking Canyon as an example, when Si was doing vids on his new Grail I had a look at their website and just for fun (cos no way can I afford one!) I put my details in to their size chart. As a male of 5'11"/180cm tall with 29"/74cm inside legs, their size calculator says they don't make a bike that would fit me.
I really love how Trek bikes look but they rarely have a size that will fit me. I'm short with a longer torso and short inseam. If I want a Trek road bike I can forgetaboutit. Canyon on the otherhand hasn't so I guess when I'm ready to buy another bike, Canyon it is.
How tall are you? I am 152cm shit an 70cm inseam. Trek domane as size for this height for example. The stand over height of canyon for 3xs is still over 70cm. Nonsense
@@maryfalke2032 I'm 5' 3" or 160cm? with a 27.5" inseam. 70cm. When I last looked all inseams were 28" and up on Trek. (For road an gravel) When I do the size tests on the Canyon site, depending on the model, some will come up with the 3xs as the recommended size. I actually got a Canyon Roadlite a few years ago. (Women's specific), It is an XS and it fits great. I also have my Trek Dual Sport in a small. I do love that bike but if I need to make a sudden stop it does get dicey. On the Canyon it's more comfortable. Just my experience.
@@nalissa77 maybe a few years ago canyon was smarter in building bikes.😅 Now almost every bike had 70cm or more stand over height. The trek (like my Liv avail Ar) has 65cm. I can stop whenever I want without any problems, too 😊
@@maryfalke2032 maybe they will go back to smaller wheel sets and we can have more of a variety. ;) It's odd how they can't figure it out as the small sizes are the first ones to sell out.
When my wife decided she wanted a road bike, we looked at a lot of options but eventually went with a Liv. The main reason was that she has smaller hands, and some of the unisex bikes she found the reach to the brake levers uncomfortably long. This meant that she was not at all confident on steeper descents. The Liv sorts that problem, and as a bonus the model she chose also has slave levers on the bars, which work really well for her.
Good video! With smaller frames, especially when you get down into the 2 and 3 XS sizes that Canyon produces, what is the effect of having the smaller 650c wheels compared to a bike using standard 700c wheels? I’m other words, in a race, whether it is at the local level or pro tour level, will the wheel size be a factor of who crosses the finish line first? Also, for smaller riders who are enthusiasts, weekend road warriors, those riding for fitness, etc., are smaller crank arms (e.g., 165mm and smaller) available without having to pay extra for them?
As a woman who is small size 1.50cm like me living in Vietnam, i really don't have to much choices besides liv giant alight 2. For me, it was a little to much over my budget but i decided to bought that bike, no more choices. Hopefully, my health will be better with cycling.
I am male but I brought one second hand by accident. The width is better for me cause I don't have wide shoulders. At certain turning angles the tip of my toes hit the wheel. When I first got it my shoulders were tired because I wasn't used to the angle but now it's fine. I'm mostly happy with it.
It would mean a lot to many of us if they did make more of an effort! And just to be clear, I do not care for pink, purples and pastels. So PLEASE think outside the box when it comes to the ladies. Please! Honestly, if I could get someone to build me a solidly made black bike with dark teal accents I would be grateful. I'm 5'2, 115 pds!
It would have been nice to have the opinion of someone who believes that women specific bikes make sense. Is it just commercial bullshitting, or are there some specific subtle things that justify them? Women might not *need* specific geometry, but would it nevertheless still be a good thing? Obviously it’s more expensive to develop, produce, and distribute more types of frames for the same amount of customers, but Giant/Liv firmly believe it's justifiable for the end user. I’m sure it all comes down to a question of cost for the manufacturer vs the pricetag for the customer.
I remember in the seventies my first girlfriend was only 1,56 with tiny size 36 feet. Her common bike was in fact a child's bike. My now wife is 1,72 and has a wide size 43 foot. Even now she has much trouble finding female shoes. The shops will not stock them or can't require them. As for walking boots she has 40 years ago changed to men's boots, and has to go with men's (boring) colours. No company offers women's boots her size - not even today. As for her bikes she fit in the ordinary range as she has big hands. Our daughter though has a long torso and short legs. I think much more emphasis should be made to actual measurements. Living near Luxembourg you see quite a lot of these tiny older Portuguese men under 1,60. I suppose they have the same issues as women finding a right propositioned bike.
It would be interesting to get some comment from bike builders such as Liv to see what they have to say in regard to better meeting the needs of women. Not that I disagree with any of the video, but it would be nice to have those views included.
Get Dr. Stacy Sims on. She is an exercise physiologist and nutritionist and focusses specifically on female athletes. A lot of training advice going around today is based on evidence from studies done on men (not women) and women have a lot of different needs due to their hormonal and other physiological differences. She's an ex pro cyclist and would have some really great insights for women's training and nutrition on and off the bike.
Absolutely! "Women are not small men," to quote Dr. Sims. Or talk to Caroline Criado-Perez, who wrote Invisible Women: Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men. Talking about just geometry is over-simplifying, and missing the larger point about perspective.
I have a friend who is 4'8" (142 cm) and it's impossible to find satisfactory adult bikes, there's no fun road bikes and no commuting/e-bikes she feels safe on, and as a result she gave up cycling 😔🤬 I tried looking into the options, there's not much for people under 4'11", and a few things I noted: Inseam/height ratio varies between individuals, typically around 0.45 - 0.46, but on average there is no difference between men and women, just outlier individuals who have long legs with short torsos, and vice versa. What we're left with in terms of women specific bikes is more often a need for narrower handle bars to compliment narrower shoulders, and wider saddles to accommodate wider sit bones, but neither of these things is actually wholly unique to women either. 650c wheels are extremely rare these days, and it might be better than 650b because 650c is slightly smaller, 571 mm vs 584 mm. 650c used to popular for TT aero and triathlon, and could be a solution to getting the saddle to bar drop on very small sizes, as well as reducing toe overlap. I note that some brands e.g. Merida have XXXXS (4XS) sizes for the Asian markets, but they're still not small enough for 4'8" riders, and appear to still use 700c wheels 🤷♂ What I personally want to see is 5XS and 6XS size frames for adults N.B. telling small adults to ride youth or kids bikes is patronising and bad for mental health becuase small people are already subject to being infantilised on a regular basis. Offering 650b is a step in the right direction, but I would like to see a return of 650c, and maybe even manufacturers experimenting with 600c. Maybe it only has to be the front wheels? Either way, I think it will require bike, wheel, and tyre manufacturers to agree to collaborate, but the overall product performance needs to be competitive to be fair. I think the UCI could potentially help by revisiting the rules on what shape bikes have to be. I remember Conor talking about the aero bikes in size 61 and above looking odd because the seat tube cannot follow the wheel arc in those sizes due to UCI regulations. Maybe small bike need lower minimum weight limits, narrower minimum bar widths, and something to compensate for any performance penalty of smaller wheels? The bigger ethical/moral question for me is: should larger bicycle manufacturers for forced by law to produce bikes (and brakes, shifters, wheels and tyres) in outlier sizes to accommodate everyone who is very short?
The main differences are the seat width and bar width, and you'll noticed that S and XS bikes often have the wider seat and narrower bars, as they obviously expect those to be sold to women.
Hilarious having a statement fron Canyon when you can go watch any bikefitting videos on youtube and all of them have a go at Canyon for being one of the worst brands in terms of oversizing their bikes and making them too long for the average, non competitive rider
It must be a real challenge designing bikes. It's amusing to me when me and my former partner go on rides. we're close to the same height (she's maybe about an inch taller) I can barely get on her bike because of the seat height. Apparently I've got short legs!
I've never even considered a women's specific bike. I'm 5'-8" with a lanky build and I have always been comfortable on men's bikes. That's me. Not all women are built alike and the discussion here covered different body shapes and how it can figure into bike design for both men and women.
Cervelo got geometry right decades ago. No difference for men or women. Narrower bars and a little less reach in stem is fine, but you don't need to change the frame
It's expensive to create frame molds for lots of bikes. Cutting womens-specific bikes from their line-up saved Secialized, Cervelo, Canyon, Trek, etc. lots of money. @@Shadowboost
10.40 Canyon say' racers' . You read out the statement and substitute the word for 'riders ' . That's the problem they make bikes for racers , when the vast majority of bike riders are bike riders, not racers. Meaning they will just have to fit a 'race' bike , like it or not .
It makes sense to focus on producing a wide range of frames based on two wheel sizes. The detailed fit can be dealt with by varying cranks, stems and seat positions? I suspect women specific bikes are just painted different colours, it’s just a bit of a marketing con?
I think Specialized had the women’s specific range, but they stopped that, because they found that just making a broader range of frame sizes from small to large…
My ex (her choice, not mine) really struggled with the brake levers as her hands were quite dainty. Granted, they were dreadful Shimano Claris ones from around 2013, but it was the distance to reach them that was the issue. I know you could fit shims to reduce the gap, but it would be great to see Shimano/SRAM or Campag make women/child specific levers (if they don't already). Do other women have the same issue?
The handlebars and brake levers were the big reason I went with a women's frame. The first road bike with drop handles I rode was a rental and a men's frame. Going downhill was quite scary because I could only get the very tips of my fingers around the brakes. Every bump in the road made me feel like my hands were going to bounce right off the handles. I had no control. It put me off getting my own road bike for a few years. Having a Liv now with a narrower handlebar and a shorter distance from handle to lever has made a massive difference. I guess I could have gotten a "standard" bike and replaced those components, but why not just get a bike that comes with what I need right from the beginning?
I've had the same issue in the past too - mainly when I had my rim brake bike, I have small hands as well and struggled to feel confident on the brakes. I now have a disc brake bike and an overall better set up (shorter reach, narrower bars, smaller hoods etc) and I'm much more comfortable and confident now
No need to go small on wheels really. Slacken the steering and increase the fork offset to get the same trail figure. You will get to keep the same weight distribution and handling. Only thing is you need to design and mold two different forks for different sizes of the same bike (higher cost).
I think they have that wrong , i have had 2 liv bike and my friend has 1 the reach is to short on all . Its not just making the top tube shorter . I am 5ft2 and my friend 5ft 10 so not a hight thing for this . I do love giant tho
Bang on Manon, Bike manufactures are slowly.... very slowly moving to providing bikes that real people ride. Never mind the gender we as in 99% of us are not racer boys and girls yet the bike choices do not reflect that. Time for bikes to be more suited for the average person and of course the price needs to be far more reasonable.
a bit disappointed that GCN did not interview LIV , a company that specifically design bikes for women. It would be good to hear both sides of the story, rather than just their own sponsors.
I think if reach is an issue on smaller 700c frames then perhaps that could be compensated by zero stems and lowering the cross bar. I wonder if it's marketing or the dreaded UCI that stop this kind of innovation.
Such a small and difficult range of gear available to small women. Extremely annoying if you take cycling seriously and want aero gains. Helmets, SHOES especially. Many manufacturers stop doing half sizes under EU 39 or don’t offer eg wide fit for them
They don’t, the opinion on women specific bikes comes from Canyon. Canyon doesn’t sell women specific bikes so of course their opinion will be that they are not necessary. Ridiculous to make a video on this topic without getting input from Liv.
@@zago7918 regardless, Liv does make women “specific” bikes and to ignore them is like ignoring Honda with their 4wd…sure it isn’t a jeep, hummer or Range Rover, Toyota, buts it’s still a 4wd and there are plenty out there
@@zago7918 I agree. They have smaller sizes than the mens version, but still way larger than anything offered by Canyon. I am 163cm and all the XS frames had the reach too long for me.
@@peterwillson1355 I don't know. I just know that I have quite a wide pelvis and was always aware that how far apart my bike pedals were seemed to have been designed for someone with a narrower pelvis than mine.
@av-zq7ge The answer is no, women don't walk with a wider stride, ie waddle like ducks, so I really don't see why they would need a different, wider q-factor.. women seem perfectly capable of doing things with their feet close together. Think of gymnasts.
The chemometric are bit different between man and woman. Woman legs are mostly longer then there body length, compare to the man. Making the (performance bike) frame bid shorter in the length makes sense.
As a man who has long legs and a shorter torso, I would like to see gender neutral frames sized for all body types and gender specific touch points… as is saddles, handlebars and such.
Mannon is awesome. Women are different, but does the demand for womens bike come close to those to the demand for male bikes? No idea. Just follow the money….
Do we need women's specific bikes? 🚺
Do we need specific bikes for men who identify as pregnant women?
Ergonomy is different from male to female, so I think it makes sense.
No, just small frames.
Why didn’t GCN approach Liv for their take?
Even if the prevailing opinion is that women specific bikes are nonsense it would be nice to hear the counterpoint from the biggest manufacturer of them.
@@KN-vl7nk very good point
Your guest, Tom, hit it on the head when he said women will improve descending when the bike fits properly. I switched to a LIV Lagma and the difference in my descending was night and day! Shoulder width is also key also. I highly recommend LIV.
Bar width can be adjusted for any bike, and most men are riding with 38-40 cm bars now, too
Note that while you often may hear than men and women have different leg length to torso length ratios, this is not true. When you take populations of men and women *that are the same height* they have the same average torso/leg ratio. So you don't need gender specific frame geometry generally, you just need bikes well designed for short people. And the industry avoiding smaller wheels makes this hard.
I mean you could use 27.5's or 26's from Mountainbikes to adress that.
@@Vixen1525yh but not everyone wants an MTB.....
Why they don’t use 650b for shorter people seems crazy on road bikes.
Some of the best-fitting small bikes I've ever seen had 26" wheels whether the riders were men or women. The entire "women-specific" thing in cycling is nothing more than marketing bullspeak. The only "woman-specific" thing my wife (ex-pro back-in-the-day) uses is a sports bra!
I tried 650b wheelset for my wife's road bike and end up with headache trying to find good road tires that fit the frame clearance.
Being the owner of a short torso and narrow shoulders I've always got on well with women's specific bikes. I'm not against the idea of a nonspecific frame though, as long as a variety of lengths can be offered as well as height. At least we've moved on from the days of women's bikes having to feature pink or floral motifs...thank goodness!
oh yes, Liv has changed the colours, very pretty colours. Now you have to buy Canyon for a pink or a purple bike 🤣
I think it's vital that smaller bikes are fitted with more appropriate components (650b wheels, 36 or 38cm handlebars as opposed to 40, shorter cranks etc) to allow for bikes to have uncompromised geometry and handling characteristics compared to their larger sized counterparts, as opposed to the concept of a women's specific bike in and of itself. And allowing scope for swapping components easily to tailor a fit to the rider.
As a female rider, my biggest beef is the shrink it and pink it situation that happens. Especially with jerseys. They are just not made to fit the female shape. And, as a 5'9" athletic/slim framed woman, the torso length to waist width ratios need to accommodate more body frames. Not everyone is shaped like a 12yo child. I continually have to purchase men's jerseys to avoid pink and purple and get a longer torso length that doesn't add extra width.I have tried searching out women's specific kit, but living in Canada, many companies do not ship here either. I hope as cycling increases in popularity there will be enough demand for better fitting women's kit from head to toe that manufacturers will listen to.
My wife has just bought her first Liv. In fact it's her first brand new bike......she absolutely adores it. She was the W/kg queen anyway amongst our group of 9 regular riders (1 woman, 8 men). Us 8 guys are now all in trouble! Well done Liv for recognising the market and creating a super product
Totally agree. I have two Liv road bikes and, being a small woman, they are the most comfortable bikes I’ve owned
As a man, I've ridden three "women's" bikes. It's a bunch of nonsense in terms of geometry, the same frame works for both sexes
I have a Liv as well. Great bike.
Second video regarding this. While it's a SUPER important topic, I've noticed you havent actually spoken to anyone from a brand that is doing women's specific bikes. So you're getting one side of the story from brands/shops that dont carry any of them, and are obviously not going to push business away. Food for thought. Give LIV a ring... I'm sure they would be happy to chat about the endless amounts of R&D they've put into their product.
I am 5’3” on a good day and ride a Canyon Ultimate in 2XS with 650b wheels and I’m really happy with the fit. I love that Canyon has such a wide range of sizes, and while they’re certainly not the only manufacturer to offer that range, I hope to see more manufacturers doing the same. It’s nice to have more choices!
As a salesperson in the bike industry I think one of my biggest frustrations is brands not offering enough sizes. I am a man and about 5 foot 6 and honestly struggle to find things that fit. Fortunately I am inside the industry to be able to fix the problem. If you are new to the sport it can be awfully intimidating when you aren’t a medium man riding a medium bike in medium clothes and I think the bike industry lets people at both ends of the hight spectrum down.
What about non-sport riders?
I do recall an interview with the owner of Crust Bikes on Path Less Pedalled, he made a run of small road bikes sized for 24" wheels and they sold like hot cakes.
You should have typed:
"If you are new to cycling...."
Aquiring a bike doesn't have to be associated with racing!
Depends entirely on the person in question. Plenty of taller Dutch Women can fit on mens bikes just fine with only minor contact point adjustments. Womens specific saddles are a good recommendation though, since their hip geometry is quite different for most but not all! Small bike geometry is often a compromise as is bike geometry for tall people over 1.95. What also concerns me a lot is that a lot of bikes tend to no longer be made in the extra large or extra small sizes. A 61(XL) equivalant is where most brands max out.
Most racers are riding smaller frames with super long seat posts and syems now. It's silly but that's the meta.
Thanks for the stellar content again gcn and Manon! I'm a guy and I was fascinated throughout! The bike industry is obsessed with male riders and caters to this niche to everyone's detriment. Reminds me a bit of the videos that gcn years back did with Emma Pooley and her struggle to get a bike that fit. She opted for 650B wheels back before it became popular. I love that you covered many bases: custom frame builder who understands kinetics, bike shop owner, and a big bike brand as well as Manon's lived experience as a pro racer. I will let women's voices speak up for what they want to see Manon investigate next, bit rest assured, I WILL be watching anything you produce on this topic next! It's so important that we start taking smaller stature/weight athletes seriously. You want evidence? You just have to watch poor Hank struggling with Conor's 36" wheeled monster bike! Let's get bikes that fit everyone in the hands of those that need them! Eagerly awaiting the next video!!
I would like to see more 650 wheels available. Budget brands and entry level bikes don't use these so to standardize volume parts purchases. More weight over the rear wheel keeps the ride from being skittish.
Can I put 650 wheels on a bike like the Liv avail AR 1 (2022)? It has 700 wheels now.
@@maryfalke2032Disc brakes, probably yes. Rim brakes, probably not.
@@kokonanana1 disc brakes😁 thank you
The industry would not like that. It would mean they would also have to expand the range of tyres available and anyone can see they are already trying to reduce the variety and corral everyone into using the same sizes.
That's a good question. I'm training on a Bianchi with a men's setup because I'm just not comfortable on a women's bike. I prefer the larger tires , longer bar, and longer Crank but the issue is, and this is going to sound weird, because it's my height on the ground, once it's raised up on my indoor trainer I have to get a step ( or a paint can) to get on the bike to ride. That drop bar would be magical and less invasive in that one instance. Thank God for shams.
I bought my wife a custom Seven Ti in 1997 and she is still riding and loving it. It was designed with 650 wheels (Spinergies originally) and just fits her perfectly it seems. With new components (and wheels) it is good to go for many more years. I also bought her a lovely small Pinarello with 700 wheels two years ago and it is nice but she is never as comfortable as when she is on the Seven.
My wife rode a Surly Troll with 26" wheels for years because it fit. It was heavy, but handled predictably.
Very glad to see ya'll tackling this idea. Keep these coming!
Just need a variety of sizes for everyone. Most of us will change the saddle anyway and most of the time even 'women's' bikes have handlebars that are too wide.
Just bought a bike for my wife. We had to cut the bars down.
Great video Manon! Would love another more in depth one about how women can start to customise their setup more, this video mentions frames, stems and cranks, but I'd love to know more about the how/where to start: I'm 5'7 with an XS Canyon (though Canyon recommends me an M which is way too big), with an 80mm flipped stem and 38 handlebars... but I didn't know to do that myself, so more of these detailed 'learner/starter' vids would be awesome please!
Also maybe one comparing a Liv and a similar Canyon would be great to see too with what the differences are!
I like women's specific bikes but that is mainly for the colors that are offered. Since I am rather tall 5'10" or 178cm I ride a bigger bike and most women's bikes are to small for me. I do need to get a better saddle, and shorten the stem just a bit and get a narrower handle bar but that is about it.
I agree regarding Pinarello, lots of frame sizes if its in your budget , I love mine.
I have to ride a 44cm frame, which took me a year to find. My local Specialized store just happened to post an IG story selling a Diverge so I snapped it up! I always get comments I should buy a Liv, but I love my bike and with a bike fit session, it fits me perfectly. Thanks for the video!
Great video! I (151cm) have a Canyon gravel bike in 3XS with 650b wheels and it's geometry is completely different to the average/large size. It looks a bit like an old German shepherd with hip problems, probably the only way to combine such a low seatpost with wheels of that size. However, I've seen Liv road bikes of a similar size that fit 700c wheels without the geometry looking off, so maybe I'll try them in the future.
But then again, I'm lucky enough to be able to afford a bike like this. If someone my size was looking for a more affordable option, they'd probably have to go for a youth bike, as most of the big companies that sell cheaper bikes don't carry such small sizes.
I think that for most women the possibility to choose gender-specific parts such as saddles, handlebars... and a wide range of sizes would be enough.
Liv bikes do a good women's marketing, but they don't cater well for smaller riders, especialy if they need a shorter than average reach for a XS. I am definitely on the long legs/short torso, and even the Liv endurance/gravel ranges are too long for me (I'm 163cm tall). I only found 4 mid range models in the market to fit me (Trek, Specialzed, Canyon and LOOK) without the need for a 6cm stem (Trek, Specialzed, Canyon and LOOK). I went for the LOOK due to availability at the time and I am very happy with the fit and frame versatility, but if I ever need another bike, it will be a custom frame.
You will struggle to find a frame for your size other than Canyon, I think.
@@nluisa
Interesting... I never would have thought that, especially since they claim that their bikes fit people as small as 145cm (XXS).
I compared their Devote 0 (XS) to my Grizl 7 1by (3XS) and found that the Devote's stack was higher (523/512), the reach was slightly longer (380/372) while their stem and top tube lengths (50, 524) were about the same and the seat tube length was shorter (390/402). As someone with 0 knowledge of bike geometry, this doesn't seem like a big difference... but I'm curious to see how it translates to my position on the bike. Maybe I'll visit my local Giant store and see if they have any Liv bikes in XS.
I also took a look at Liv's road bikes and interestingly enough the stem on their !XXS! road bike (Avail Advanced 1) was 70mm which is quite confusing to me and supports what you said about them not catering well to people with shorter reach and longer legs.
I'm not quite sure about my own leg to torso ratio but it's probably somewhere in the middle/ on the long torso side as I have no problem reaching the handlebars even though I'm a little shorter than the suggested height.
@@paula_carolina I bought a Liv avail Ar 1 in XXS with 152cm and an inseam of 70cm. The reach and the 25mm offset seatpost is a Problem now. I will change the seatpost and the stem for 50/60cm. Very disappointing...because right now I am to stretched when I want to reach the hoods.
@@paula_carolina but the canyon Standort height was no where under 70cm. So I couldn't take one
@@maryfalke2032 That's a shame! Hope you can ride more comfortably after you change them!
My Canyon's standover height is 70,9cm, according to the spec sheet, but I can comfortably stand over it. Even though my inseam was measured at 68cm. So I took another look and Canyon actually measures the stand-over height further forward than Liv. I got out my trusty tape measure and it's only 66cm when you measure in the same place.
Great video Manon and I can’t wait to see more videos on this topic! I’m interested to know more about 650b vs 700c wheels and if there’s much of a performance difference. As a 5’2 female I should probably opt for 650b wheels however I’ve always gone for 700 - perhaps slightly out of stubbornness but also because some people say 650b don’t roll as well? Not sure how much truth there is in that though…
Thank you manon I initially almost passed up this video, as not for me. That was not true. Very informative, and now I know. Very good show.
They should just make "short reach/high stack" versions of the frames and put unisex paint schemes on them. A short reach version would be a good seller for many shorter men as well. This would reduce inventory costs for bike shops. My custom steel bike is actually designed around a woman's frame geometry, but I'm a man of 170cm with a slightly shorter torso than average.
I own a unisex Bianchi and a Liv Langma and far prefer my Liv. I've had bike fits on both so I know they are set up correctly but the Liv just feels so much more comfortable. I think it's ultimately down to the individual as to what suits them, but I'm personally glad there are still women's specific options available. Great video but it would have been good to speak to a brand like Liv and hear their perspective too.
Excellent video. I ride a 48 inch Diverge, ordered the Women's version and the Men's came in to the store. Wouldn't have noticed a difference and would have needed to make the same personalization on either model. Still love it! Would love to see a video on cycling clothing specific to women. That's the one area where I have the hardest time. Everything is made for smaller women and us who are a bit larger struggle to find quality kit that fits us.
Sounds to me like its really about Geometry, regardless of gender, I'm 6' tall and know many guys that are between 5'-2" -5'-6". smaller men could benefit from smaller frames just as a woman at the same height and limb length. six footers like me appreciate mountain bikes with a lower- sloped top tube, which some would consider a woman's frame. so, is it not more about geometry? However, women do prefer a specific saddle, which is more or less an preference item. I think we just need more frame sizes that take into account reach and wheel size without referring to them as being gender specific. Great topic Manon! (please excuse the typos).
i see my comment was edited... nothing perverted was implied.
As a 5ft1 (154cm) cyclist, I haven't found a 'unisex' bike that goes small enough for me. My only option is a women's specific Liv in XS. Even then, they have standard width handlebars an regular levers which are too big for my hands. Bit of a half arsed effort in my opinion.
My 6'5" friend also has a hard time finding frames that fit and more often than not just compromises for a 60cm.
Funny, one of my friend's son is 140 cm and he ride a 46 frame but with very short stem and low seatpost and he still won races
Have you looked into Junior bikes?
Pinarello has the best fit for short riders. Try to find A Pinarello Paris. As someone who's 4'11 my bikes are Pinarello Paris 43, specialized Sl8 44, trek Domane AL 44, and Cannondale optimo 44. For me the most important thing is having a bike with a low enough stack.
From what I’ve read/heard, it would massively help if you could choose the following five things when you order a new bike:
- Frame size (small bikes having 650B wheels)
- Stem Length
- Handlebar width
- Saddle
- Crank Length
It seems like that would address 99% of fit/comfort issues for women and men!!
I don't understand why brands like Canyon don’t do this. It shouldn’t be difficult for a direct to consumer brand. I’d pay a premium for this instead of buying extra accessories and having to work on my brand new bike.
As a man watching the video, I think just smaller frame sizes with 650b wheels sounds like the logical thing to focus on, so you don’t end up with unpleasant compromises on handling. But hopefully a lot of women watch and comment on this video. I’m curious what they think. And that’s what’s important obviously.
Am a woman have a Liv Avail XS roadbike. Just love it. Fits really well.
My Liv Avail was the best bike I've ever had! Dang that bike felt good. (I have since stopped road riding, and moved onto gravel.)
@reidwrites
I rode a Pinarello Galileo 52 for about 15 years, then it didn't fit me anymore. Got the Liv XS last year.
Two years ago for gravel got a Trek Checkpoint ALR 5 XS and it's great too .
I’m 172 cm tall and have a Canyon WMN Ultimate in size S. So no need for smaller wheels. Still, I am very happy with my women-specific bike as I also tried their unisex version of the same bike when I visited Canyon in Koblenz, and I felt much more comfortable on the women-specific frame and set-up. Going by their online sizing, I was right in the middle of XS or S, so thought I’d better travel there to test ride before ordering online. I am very glad I did. Interestingly, in the unisex model, the XS frame fit me better. Not sure what to do now if I want to get a new one. Will probably be travelling over again, just to make sure…
Everyone body is different. Depends what suits you and what your budget is. I’m up to my 3rd liv owner for my road bike but my grave is a Kelly with some small adjustments Comfortable and out riding that is the aim 🎉
When I purchased my Specialized in 2019, my shop’s staff told me that was the last year they expected to see “mens” and “womens” bikes offered. I’m not sure that ended up happening as quickly as they thought, but looking at the major “serious” brands I think I agree with what Manon and her guests have said here now.
I think it would even be in brands’ best interests to do away with gender in their stock, as it reduces the number of “models” that need to be tracked and managed (even if the parts are identical, in some part of the logistics chain they need to be separated, at least at the end-item level). It might even help justify having larger variations in a product’s range, as it might remove some stigma for smaller men buying smaller components that would previously been marketed as “women’s”.
That said, there is a market segment that is still firmly in the “mens/womens/boys/girls” mode - brands that you would find at, say, Walmart. That is, bicycles sold by non-cyclist sellers for non-cyclist customers, where style and low price reign supreme, rather than performance and durability. And the need to draw customers out of that segment into that where the bike shop lives remains as strong as ever.
In the Liv section of the Giant store with my wife: “oh look, it’s purple so you know it’s for you”. How she laughed😅.
Ugh, that's funny and also a bummer. ;) I have a Liv Pique that's green, and a Liv Devote that's off-white. Both are insanely sexy bikes and get compliments from men and women, for what it's worth.
I have very long legs and a short torso. My Merckx Milano 72 large women's bike fits me very well. It's less about gender and more about fit, as Tom said, I think. the Merckx has a short frame with a long head tube. My other bikes have to have endurance geometry as well as short stems. Any regular racing bike has me far too stretched out or too large a drop from saddle to bars. My old steel Falcon is a 60cm but the frame is short enough for me. Modern bikes seem to be longer for the same size.
I think what is called women’s bikes is better suited for many males with your body proportions or less flexibility (my case).
Very interesting topic, thanks for that.
About the sloping top tube for women's bikes, my girlfriend appreciates those, not because she's cycling in a skirt/dress but because it's easier to hop on versus swinging your leg over the frame.
That said, the sizing thing is spot on. As a below average height man myself (168cm), it wasn't until I got a XS Canyon that I realized I've always been riding frames too big for me !
When I was in the bike shop business it was more often the case that women were more difficult to fit than men.
And not just the very small women, that is another subject altogether.
We did sell a bike that used 650b front wheel that allowed keeping the overall frame proportional.
This greatly facilitated getting the reach and stack correct.
I do recall many more cases of women having issues with frame geometry than men.
It was usually tall women with very long legs or very short men and women that were the hardest to fit.
Trying to get back into cycling after a 30 year hiatus (14 to 44 years old), and immediately found my old bike - Univega Alpina mtb - to be exactly agonising, nothing as where i wanted it or where i could get comfortable with; putting your back out 5 times makes at difference, apparently. Measuring where i actually wanted/needed things to be to be able to ride for more than 10 minutes, and every geometry diagram i ended up being closet to was a "women's" mtb. Everything was too long, with too-low bars, and pedals that were too under the seat.
The perfect bike turned out to be a Carrera Intercity folder. Every time i look at it i keep thinking if the frame was non-folding, with a more regular downtube, and gearing to match a road bike, they'd sell loads of them.
We really need to stop saying that "women" need this or that. I was told for years that "women" have wider sit bones and need a wider saddle. Turn out, I need a 132 for my preference of an aggressive position and narrow hips. Lets all look at the individual size, shape, and riding style before their gender
My first bike was a 2nd hand Specialized Dolce Elite. It was some time before I realised it was a ladies bike. I didn't have a clue about size. I didn't even know how to use the shifters. Luckily, with my short legs, it suited me quite well and is still in use on my turbo. I've done over 13K miles on it.
Its interesting, in MTB steeper seat tubes and slacker heat tubes bring previously large sizes down a lot, my 5ft8 wife can ride my XL Marin Alpine Trail with a 1300mm wheelbase no problem, reach is so much shorter then it used to be, I wonder if that would work for road cycling frame sizes
bike makers need to be flexible with the shops around stems, seats, bar width, cranks. What's on the spec list isn't always what people want. I changed cranks, stem and bar width on the last two bikes I bought because they came with too long, too wide, too short, etc. I ate that cost because there was no accommodation from the maker/shop.
Great point. You can swap out all kinds of components to get your bike to the perfect fit, but those costs add up. Finding the "perfect enough" fit out of the box is #goals.
I am 6'4" and I have the other issue, trying to find bike big enough to fit me without having 18" of seat pole sticking out. There are a number of companies that make larger bike but not in all styles. I typically need at least a 61cm frame.
Likewise.
I have the same problem 🥺.
Like when you see Connor on his bike. That Seat post! I don't think I could even get on his bike(I'm about 5-8 or 5-9).
I’ve always been more comfortable with my WSD bikes over the years. I now stick with Liv since Trek arrogantly stated that women don’t need a WSD frame. I think there is credible proof that women apply power differently than men and this does impact frame geometry
I'm a man and I'm riding a WSD Madone and my other road bikes (I have 11). Women specific frames are nonsense. Contact points are a separate matter
I can't say if women's specific bikes are required, although saddles are a fairly obvious place where women might need a different shape from men, but IME manufacturers need to be more aware that not all of their customers conform to the long leg, short torso image of a professional cyclist. Taking Canyon as an example, when Si was doing vids on his new Grail I had a look at their website and just for fun (cos no way can I afford one!) I put my details in to their size chart. As a male of 5'11"/180cm tall with 29"/74cm inside legs, their size calculator says they don't make a bike that would fit me.
I really love how Trek bikes look but they rarely have a size that will fit me. I'm short with a longer torso and short inseam. If I want a Trek road bike I can forgetaboutit. Canyon on the otherhand hasn't so I guess when I'm ready to buy another bike, Canyon it is.
How tall are you? I am 152cm shit an 70cm inseam. Trek domane as size for this height for example. The stand over height of canyon for 3xs is still over 70cm. Nonsense
@@maryfalke2032 I'm 5' 3" or 160cm? with a 27.5" inseam. 70cm. When I last looked all inseams were 28" and up on Trek. (For road an gravel) When I do the size tests on the Canyon site, depending on the model, some will come up with the 3xs as the recommended size. I actually got a Canyon Roadlite a few years ago. (Women's specific), It is an XS and it fits great. I also have my Trek Dual Sport in a small. I do love that bike but if I need to make a sudden stop it does get dicey. On the Canyon it's more comfortable. Just my experience.
@@nalissa77 maybe a few years ago canyon was smarter in building bikes.😅 Now almost every bike had 70cm or more stand over height. The trek (like my Liv avail Ar) has 65cm. I can stop whenever I want without any problems, too 😊
@@maryfalke2032 maybe they will go back to smaller wheel sets and we can have more of a variety. ;) It's odd how they can't figure it out as the small sizes are the first ones to sell out.
i am kinda short guy so i just buy bikes that are meant for teenagers. works fine and they are often also cheaper.
Incredibly informative
When my wife decided she wanted a road bike, we looked at a lot of options but eventually went with a Liv. The main reason was that she has smaller hands, and some of the unisex bikes she found the reach to the brake levers uncomfortably long. This meant that she was not at all confident on steeper descents. The Liv sorts that problem, and as a bonus the model she chose also has slave levers on the bars, which work really well for her.
Good video! With smaller frames, especially when you get down into the 2 and 3 XS sizes that Canyon produces, what is the effect of having the smaller 650c wheels compared to a bike using standard 700c wheels? I’m other words, in a race, whether it is at the local level or pro tour level, will the wheel size be a factor of who crosses the finish line first? Also, for smaller riders who are enthusiasts, weekend road warriors, those riding for fitness, etc., are smaller crank arms (e.g., 165mm and smaller) available without having to pay extra for them?
As a woman who is small size 1.50cm like me living in Vietnam, i really don't have to much choices besides liv giant alight 2. For me, it was a little to much over my budget but i decided to bought that bike, no more choices. Hopefully, my health will be better with cycling.
I am male but I brought one second hand by accident. The width is better for me cause I don't have wide shoulders. At certain turning angles the tip of my toes hit the wheel. When I first got it my shoulders were tired because I wasn't used to the angle but now it's fine. I'm mostly happy with it.
It would mean a lot to many of us if they did make more of an effort! And just to be clear, I do not care for pink, purples and pastels. So PLEASE think outside the box when it comes to the ladies. Please! Honestly, if I could get someone to build me a solidly made black bike with dark teal accents I would be grateful. I'm 5'2, 115 pds!
It would have been nice to have the opinion of someone who believes that women specific bikes make sense. Is it just commercial bullshitting, or are there some specific subtle things that justify them? Women might not *need* specific geometry, but would it nevertheless still be a good thing?
Obviously it’s more expensive to develop, produce, and distribute more types of frames for the same amount of customers, but Giant/Liv firmly believe it's justifiable for the end user.
I’m sure it all comes down to a question of cost for the manufacturer vs the pricetag for the customer.
I remember in the seventies my first girlfriend was only 1,56 with tiny size 36 feet. Her common bike was in fact a child's bike.
My now wife is 1,72 and has a wide size 43 foot. Even now she has much trouble finding female shoes. The shops will not stock them or can't require them. As for walking boots she has 40 years ago changed to men's boots, and has to go with men's (boring) colours. No company offers women's boots her size - not even today.
As for her bikes she fit in the ordinary range as she has big hands.
Our daughter though has a long torso and short legs.
I think much more emphasis should be made to actual measurements.
Living near Luxembourg you see quite a lot of these tiny older Portuguese men under 1,60. I suppose they have the same issues as women finding a right propositioned bike.
The main thing that puts me off buying a women’s specific bike is that they’re always pink or purple. We like other colours too you know 😂
It would be interesting to get some comment from bike builders such as Liv to see what they have to say in regard to better meeting the needs of women. Not that I disagree with any of the video, but it would be nice to have those views included.
Get Dr. Stacy Sims on. She is an exercise physiologist and nutritionist and focusses specifically on female athletes. A lot of training advice going around today is based on evidence from studies done on men (not women) and women have a lot of different needs due to their hormonal and other physiological differences. She's an ex pro cyclist and would have some really great insights for women's training and nutrition on and off the bike.
Absolutely! "Women are not small men," to quote Dr. Sims.
Or talk to Caroline Criado-Perez, who wrote Invisible Women: Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men.
Talking about just geometry is over-simplifying, and missing the larger point about perspective.
I have a friend who is 4'8" (142 cm) and it's impossible to find satisfactory adult bikes, there's no fun road bikes and no commuting/e-bikes she feels safe on, and as a result she gave up cycling 😔🤬
I tried looking into the options, there's not much for people under 4'11", and a few things I noted:
Inseam/height ratio varies between individuals, typically around 0.45 - 0.46, but on average there is no difference between men and women, just outlier individuals who have long legs with short torsos, and vice versa.
What we're left with in terms of women specific bikes is more often a need for narrower handle bars to compliment narrower shoulders, and wider saddles to accommodate wider sit bones, but neither of these things is actually wholly unique to women either.
650c wheels are extremely rare these days, and it might be better than 650b because 650c is slightly smaller, 571 mm vs 584 mm. 650c used to popular for TT aero and triathlon, and could be a solution to getting the saddle to bar drop on very small sizes, as well as reducing toe overlap.
I note that some brands e.g. Merida have XXXXS (4XS) sizes for the Asian markets, but they're still not small enough for 4'8" riders, and appear to still use 700c wheels 🤷♂
What I personally want to see is 5XS and 6XS size frames for adults N.B. telling small adults to ride youth or kids bikes is patronising and bad for mental health becuase small people are already subject to being infantilised on a regular basis.
Offering 650b is a step in the right direction, but I would like to see a return of 650c, and maybe even manufacturers experimenting with 600c. Maybe it only has to be the front wheels? Either way, I think it will require bike, wheel, and tyre manufacturers to agree to collaborate, but the overall product performance needs to be competitive to be fair.
I think the UCI could potentially help by revisiting the rules on what shape bikes have to be. I remember Conor talking about the aero bikes in size 61 and above looking odd because the seat tube cannot follow the wheel arc in those sizes due to UCI regulations. Maybe small bike need lower minimum weight limits, narrower minimum bar widths, and something to compensate for any performance penalty of smaller wheels?
The bigger ethical/moral question for me is: should larger bicycle manufacturers for forced by law to produce bikes (and brakes, shifters, wheels and tyres) in outlier sizes to accommodate everyone who is very short?
So, I am a female rider, 186 cm and 72 kg. Ride a Scott Scale on a XL frame. No female specific bike in that size.
Fascinating comments on geometry from Tom Sturdee.
I would love to see you interview/ profile Georgena Terry!
The main differences are the seat width and bar width, and you'll noticed that S and XS bikes often have the wider seat and narrower bars, as they obviously expect those to be sold to women.
Having just spent quite a while with my wife buying a bike id say 2 things. 1 wheel size. 2 handlebar width.
Hilarious having a statement fron Canyon when you can go watch any bikefitting videos on youtube and all of them have a go at Canyon for being one of the worst brands in terms of oversizing their bikes and making them too long for the average, non competitive rider
It must be a real challenge designing bikes. It's amusing to me when me and my former partner go on rides. we're close to the same height (she's maybe about an inch taller) I can barely get on her bike because of the seat height. Apparently I've got short legs!
I've never even considered a women's specific bike. I'm 5'-8" with a lanky build and I have always been comfortable on men's bikes. That's me. Not all women are built alike and the discussion here covered different body shapes and how it can figure into bike design for both men and women.
Great job Manon! Keep it up
Cervelo got geometry right decades ago. No difference for men or women. Narrower bars and a little less reach in stem is fine, but you don't need to change the frame
As a shorter man (possibly 171cm), with even shorter legs, I’ve managed with 700c wheels and 170mm cranks… but only just.
I’ve heard that Specialized has a library of thousands of bike fits. Analyzing the data has led them to stop making women specific bikes!
Cervelo did that ten years before Specialized
It's expensive to create frame molds for lots of bikes. Cutting womens-specific bikes from their line-up saved Secialized, Cervelo, Canyon, Trek, etc. lots of money. @@Shadowboost
10.40 Canyon say' racers' . You read out the statement and substitute the word for 'riders ' .
That's the problem they make bikes for racers , when the vast majority of bike riders are bike riders, not racers. Meaning they will just have to fit a 'race' bike , like it or not .
It makes sense to focus on producing a wide range of frames based on two wheel sizes. The detailed fit can be dealt with by varying cranks, stems and seat positions? I suspect women specific bikes are just painted different colours, it’s just a bit of a marketing con?
I think Specialized had the women’s specific range, but they stopped that, because they found that just making a broader range of frame sizes from small to large…
My ex (her choice, not mine) really struggled with the brake levers as her hands were quite dainty. Granted, they were dreadful Shimano Claris ones from around 2013, but it was the distance to reach them that was the issue. I know you could fit shims to reduce the gap, but it would be great to see Shimano/SRAM or Campag make women/child specific levers (if they don't already).
Do other women have the same issue?
The handlebars and brake levers were the big reason I went with a women's frame. The first road bike with drop handles I rode was a rental and a men's frame. Going downhill was quite scary because I could only get the very tips of my fingers around the brakes. Every bump in the road made me feel like my hands were going to bounce right off the handles. I had no control. It put me off getting my own road bike for a few years.
Having a Liv now with a narrower handlebar and a shorter distance from handle to lever has made a massive difference. I guess I could have gotten a "standard" bike and replaced those components, but why not just get a bike that comes with what I need right from the beginning?
I've had the same issue in the past too - mainly when I had my rim brake bike, I have small hands as well and struggled to feel confident on the brakes. I now have a disc brake bike and an overall better set up (shorter reach, narrower bars, smaller hoods etc) and I'm much more comfortable and confident now
Very interesting! Besides Canyon, who else is making the smallest sizes with 650b wheels. That seems to be very important and it is logical
bring back 650c! There's already tons of fast wheels/tires in that size
No need to go small on wheels really. Slacken the steering and increase the fork offset to get the same trail figure. You will get to keep the same weight distribution and handling. Only thing is you need to design and mold two different forks for different sizes of the same bike (higher cost).
I think they have that wrong , i have had 2 liv bike and my friend has 1 the reach is to short on all . Its not just making the top tube shorter . I am 5ft2 and my friend 5ft 10 so not a hight thing for this . I do love giant tho
Bang on Manon, Bike manufactures are slowly.... very slowly moving to providing bikes that real people ride. Never mind the gender we as in 99% of us are not racer boys and girls yet the bike choices do not reflect that. Time for bikes to be more suited for the average person and of course the price needs to be far more reasonable.
When I buy a bike don’t charge me more to buy a women’s specific saddle!!! A women’s accessory package should be a standard offering.
a bit disappointed that GCN did not interview LIV , a company that specifically design bikes for women. It would be good to hear both sides of the story, rather than just their own sponsors.
It makes lots of sense!
I’m a short person who rides, thankful for smaller bikes.
If you are 152cm you definitely need one.
I think if reach is an issue on smaller 700c frames then perhaps that could be compensated by zero stems and lowering the cross bar. I wonder if it's marketing or the dreaded UCI that stop this kind of innovation.
So for short adults & jr's the slow death of the 650c wheel was a bad thing.
Such a small and difficult range of gear available to small women. Extremely annoying if you take cycling seriously and want aero gains. Helmets, SHOES especially. Many manufacturers stop doing half sizes under EU 39 or don’t offer eg wide fit for them
Why not ask Giant which makes Liv? They don’t contribute directly to gcn?
They don’t, the opinion on women specific bikes comes from Canyon. Canyon doesn’t sell women specific bikes so of course their opinion will be that they are not necessary.
Ridiculous to make a video on this topic without getting input from Liv.
I‘m sorry to say that but Liv is only Marketing
@@zago7918 regardless, Liv does make women “specific” bikes and to ignore them is like ignoring Honda with their 4wd…sure it isn’t a jeep, hummer or Range Rover, Toyota, buts it’s still a 4wd and there are plenty out there
this is the largest cycling channel yet they did their best at brushing over the shimano crank recall issue, they ain't that objective.@@zago7918
@@zago7918 I agree. They have smaller sizes than the mens version, but still way larger than anything offered by Canyon. I am 163cm and all the XS frames had the reach too long for me.
In all honesty I think UCI rules should be updated to make everyone ride 406mm rims, tt bars and step through frame.
Do bike manufacturers consider hip disparity in terms of bike fit, as this is a consideration in running in terms of male vs female biomechanics?
What differences could they incorporate to accommodate those differences in hips, apart from saddles? I can't think of any.
@@peterwillson1355 Q factor (stance width). Wider pelvis => wider stance width. Pedals with longer spindles.
@av-zq7ge so do women walk with a wider stance,?
@@peterwillson1355 I don't know. I just know that I have quite a wide pelvis and was always aware that how far apart my bike pedals were seemed to have been designed for someone with a narrower pelvis than mine.
@av-zq7ge The answer is no, women don't walk with a wider stride, ie waddle like ducks, so I really don't see why they would need a different, wider q-factor.. women seem perfectly capable of doing things with their feet close together. Think of gymnasts.
The bike needs to be bikefit to our body ... it does care if it is women or men ... industry needs to build frames and acessories to fit everybody
The chemometric are bit different between man and woman. Woman legs are mostly longer then there body length, compare to the man.
Making the (performance bike) frame bid shorter in the length makes sense.
As a man who has long legs and a shorter torso, I would like to see gender neutral frames sized for all body types and gender specific touch points… as is saddles, handlebars and such.
In other words, a bike built to suit the individual is best, but most people will never want to spend the money on a tailor-made frame.
I always had hand me down bikes from my brothers, so it is what I got use to- I now prefer the longer reach of a man’s bike
I almost bought a women's bike just because it was on sale. I can live with the little "women's cycling" print on the top tube.
Mannon is awesome. Women are different, but does the demand for womens bike come close to those to the demand for male bikes? No idea. Just follow the money….
I saw women do cycling they get extra small size men bike specifically RB
Get a bike fit before you buy a bike. It's the best way to get one that fits and is money well spent.