As a very occasional modeller, TT120 looks interesting to me, not least because it avoids the 1:76/1:87 difference. I like the idea of displaying foreign and UK hardware together on the same track. I’ll try out a TT120 train set when available.
It looks interesting to me. I haven't modelled for years, but coming back into it, this scale would work well. As for product support, as long as track is available, scratch building is always an option. Frankly, outside of locomotives, I prefer scratch/kit built anyway.
but it HAS created a brand new dilemma/ difference - between 1:100 [actually 101.6] the original TT scale IN BRITAIN and 1:120 [the foreigners' 'Imperial' not metric scale!] - between 3mm:ft [1mm representing 4"] and 2.54mm:ft [er, um 1mm representing 3.3867"!?!] - stupid really
I think it is a fantastic development in general. I am too far down the road with my HO/OO layout to change now. But If I was starting a new layout a fresh I would be on this double quick time. The compatibility with European TT would be a huge factor for me too. I think what Hornby and Peco are doing is genius in fact. I saw some TT layouts in Germany years ago and I can clearly recall thinking to myself at the time 'this is the perfect scale'.
@@EuviRail I got some more interesting info on this from someone on the inside and this is going to be a whole new approach to marketing model railways outside that of the traditional hobby scene. Games Workshop style. The idea is to sell model trains to the general public as a 'take the layout of of the box and then pack it away when finished' - like GW Fantasy or 40K games. There will be highly detailed scenic modules to conform to the radius of the track for people who do not want to make scenery. Everything plug and play but to a very high quality. Traditional modellers will still build their classic layouts so there is something for both markets. Before Games Workshop wargaming was a very small hobby. Now look at it. So potentially this is something of a watershed in the history of model trains.
I'm actually quite excited about the TT 120 announcement from Hornby. That doesn't mean I'll be walking away from 00 though. I have a large 00 steam era layout which is still very much work in progress. I've been wanting to build a separate more modern image layout too though but don't have the space for it. Not having very good eyesight N scale would be a bit small and fiddly for me but TT looks a good compromise. I've actually pre ordered one of the starter sets and am eyeing up the TT HST and Class 50! I wish Hornby well in their new venture and really hope it's a success.
As someone looking at downsizing from OO to N due to house size constraints the announcement of TT:120 has caught my attention as the perfect middle ground of OO's details and performance and N gauge's size. Here's hoping Bachmann and Dapol invest into it as well.
Thanks for your comments. I suspect Bachmann and Dapol are struggling with this one given their market position in N gauge. Agree though that multiple vendors are needed to increase the range of models more rapidly and help keep everyone honest. Yours sounds like the one of the classic use cases for TT:120.
TT 1:120 scale has lots of possibility. 12mm track is standard gauge, 9mm track is 3'6", 6.5mm track is 2'6". So those that do Narrow gauge or even mainline 3'6". The future products has a huge number of prototypes that could be modeled. Small makers can take advantage of this new scale before the big guys ramp up.
@@EuviRail Tillig is making TT120 track, so that is a big help. We don't need a Lionel track or equivalent to a third rail system taking over a market. It will be interesting to see if the big makers can tap into those 3D resin DIYers who can do designs the big guys can license. 3D to injection molding or Die casting?
DEATH OF MODEL RAILWAYS ??? I think what is far more important are the reasons behind Hornby's decision to dive into TT 1:120, and whether this is a bit of a panic or kneejerk reaction to major problems in the marketplace. There is rapidly growing evidence across the whole of Europe that the model railway market is taking a nosedive. The Internet is rapidly killing off Newspapers, books, & magazine sales. 50% of all Model Railway magazine titles across Europe have disappeared in just the last 10 years! Organisations like Amazon are effectively killing town centres, as even cities like Bristol are visibly dying with boarded up shops everywhere. This "lack of need" to go shopping, just buy it on the internet, means hobby shops being specialized niche markets are suffering badly. Many specialised expert model railway shops have vanished, in the last twenty years. Replaced in a limited degree by back street "internet" shops, solely interested in the "financial throughput" not the expertise end of the hobby. But even these now also seem to be vanishing. A clear indication the market is now shrinking. Indeed probably the best example is Nurnberg the Toy & Hobby City of Europe since 1645. Germany has always been the biggest Model Railway market place in Europe. Which 30 years ago had in excess of 20 large model railway shops. But as of 2023 only two are left. In Spain the problem is far worse, as there appears to have been around a 75% shrinkage in just 5 years. With 28 model railway shops, now down to just 6 or 7 in the whole of Spain. Hornby's CEO was saying just a year ago, that Hornby had to increase customer numbers, or the future was bleak ! Indeed Hornby have only themselves to blame in opening the door near 30 years ago to a rapid rise in competitors. Thanks to Hornby's then move to the Sandakan plant in Hong Kong. Which showed virtually every model railway manufacturer in Europe that production costs could be massively reduced if you moved to China. Opening the door to many newcomers as well. Now the China "bubble" appears to be bursting, & certainly Hornby has been looking to relocate production back to Britain. But much of its current "OO" range tooling is NOT owned by Hornby. And the opportunity to introduce TT scale is based on a long term & growing problem that the average "Home" size, has been shrinking steadily all across Europe for 30+ years. Meaning the traditional 8 x 4 layout is now not an option. So a smaller scale is the only way out of the dilemna, but may prove financially fatal, (huge investment is needed in tooling) if the market is shrinking as suddenly & rapidly as it is beginning to appear. If Hornby fails, most of its current competitors are likely to fall with it, as they rely on Hornby providing the track & other peripherals to get started !!!
Challenging times for sure and the China shift will be seizmic but it needs to happen. The deniers will say that no one else can produce cost effective models. What about Kato in Japan? Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
That's what N Gauge has been doing since the 1960s. The difference between British N Gsuge and TT is 0.48mm/ft, so there is no benefit for TT over N Gsuge.
@Nigel UK56 not being a spring chicken either, I'm not finding it a problem. My father, in his 80s is modelling in 0 and having to put onto his models all the fiddly little details that I can omit. His layout is not much larger than mine in area.
@Nigel UK56 whilst what you say is true the difference is a mean 3mm in track gauge. You might as well go to 00 as that is 4.5mm wider than TT. You aren't be the only one with poor eyesight. Any way it's funny that Hornby is now pushing a new scale for the UK when they were instrumental in the stopping of accurate track in the 1940s.
TT:120 is for many a good idea, simply because it’s a compromise which fits modern homes and life styles, but the problem is Hornby have effectively strangled the market by trying to control all sales direct to them, most people who they are trying to appeal to will look in the shops , toy shops , model shops and places like Amazon. As a result sales will be low and then they will offload the stock saying it is a loss maker, as such the idea is probably dead on arrival.
Agree on both points. You can't create a new standard (for the UK) on your own and you need your channel partners to help push adoption. Hornby looking to go it alone on both fronts. Thanks for commenting.
As a former TT3 guy I loved the scale but hated that it ran on 4ft gauge track, the front view was awful. I have similar views about the front end views on both N and 00. TT120 is a much finer match and thus appeals. I think given time this great new scale could be a 00 killer, but Hornby really need to get their act together and make their Webb site less clunky. TT120 is the way for me if I decide to do another layout in the loft rather than the G scale one in it at present. My Garden G line will continue to be fine for that scale. Long live TT120 and I look forwards to Bachmann and others getting in on the bandwagon, but please please please if you do, do not duplicate existing Hornby products or their new announced ones.
I have pre-ordered the Easterner Set from Hornby, more out of curiosity than anything else! I had earlier obtained some Triang TT gauge, but came to the conclusion that it was to primitive by modern standards. I am glad that Hornby is introducing TT:120. I think it is good because it will enable modellers to make a better representation of a real station. In OO gauge, you are hard pushed even if you have an 8 x 4 baseboard! I think the reference to TT3 modellers and OO gauge model shop owners being upset is not relevant. There are hardly any TT3 layouts in the entire universe. Striking out to create a new scale is the right thing for Hornby to have done. Thanks for uploading.
Take a look at the quality of the German stuff from Tillig, Piko and Arnold. If Hornby are going to match that then they've set the bar high from the outset.
Thanks Allen. The space/size compromise aspect is coming through a lot in the feedback for sure. If you've gone with N and are happy with it then no discussion but some folks aren't happy with N and see TT as the sweetspot.
@@EuviRail I created a Facebook group for Hornby OO Gauge. Afrer II added "and the new TT:120" to the byline, a lot more people joined! From this I conclude there is a large pent-up demand for TT:120, and that Hornby has made the right decision to introduce British outline in this scale. I recommend you order the Easterner Set, as the the Pullmans in the other "Scotsman" set do not have lights, but the non-train set Pullmans will be lit, in true Hornby, tradition! Please post a link to your uploads, and contribute to the discussion as this will get you more views! Thanks.
As a diehard N'Gauge modeller I would probably be sticking with N'Gauge as there are many nice stuff in N'Gauge these days it will take years for TT to catch up to the same level as N'Gauge
I’m excited for TT. Not had a set since I was a kid. TT is a great size for my house. I’d looked at other scales in the past but always found it too confusing and unclear as to what manufacturers supported others. TT is that safety net of knowing there is a decent range of locos available at launch, with hopefully more on their way. If I find my confidence with TT1:120, it might even be my gateway into other small scales. I do feel for the model shop owners, but having said that, since the announcement of Hornby TT, I’ve already visited more model shops in the last month than I had in the previous 10 years, and have spend money on modelling books, scenery and some die cast 1:120 models. And I think that’s a really important part of what was missed in the video; brining new people and a new audience into the model community. I’m not saying the other scales are probably better for existing modellers, but for me it’s a nice way to ease into model railways and have my hand held a bit. Surely TT can’t be a bad thing if it bring more people into the model community? I really don’t see it as Hornby forcing any existing modellers to switch over. I think it’s a great way for new people to join the community. For me, the biggest risk associated with it is the worry that TT modellers May not feel welcomed by the community.
Many Thanks for your comments Chris and I can assure you that TT:120 modelers (and any new modelers) are more than welcome to the community. I would hope that TT:120 can be a vehicle for new people to enter the hobby who wouldn't have had the opportunity otherwise. We're all in this together. I 100% agree with you in terms of the impact of the model shops and they provide a service to the industry that I fear is undervalued. Not bringing them to the party is a mistake which I hope will be rectified over time. If Hornby can deliver good quality models that look and run well, then TT:120 will be both an excellent starting point for modelers like yourself and a potential transition option for established modelers down the road. There is marketing and reality of course. So one thing I try to do on this channel is to cut to the reality - which can be painful at times. The proof of the pudding is in the eating so we look forward to seeing what Hornby serve up in December!
@@EuviRail Thanks for your reply. Just to clarify, reading back over my previous comment, when I spoke about potentially not being welcomed by the community I should have probably said “some corners of the community” rather than generalising …but I don’t include you in that! I think you seem to have a very fair and balanced view of TT. But I do hope TT doesn’t flop and brings some new people into the community, but I also hope that they let other retailers stock it. I do wonder how successful it will be at attracting new people if they hide it away on their website. Will need either a big marketing push so people know it’s out there, or they’ll need to allow others to sell and to allow people to see it on shelves in stores
I don't get why Arthur is so mad. Hornby is only adding a new scale to their range of scales, I never heared them say it is going to replace 3mm. It is all in Arthurs head ...
Thank you for making this video. I cannot see OO scale modellers changing Scale. They have already invested their money. As for the new generation, TT might meet their requirements but, I think if you were to ask the average child in the street I think their main answer would be "What is TT? Is that a new game I can play on my mobile Phone? This could be the end of Hornby unless someone buys them out. They never listen to what the customer is saying. and never own up to their own mistake. Martin. (Thailand)
Hi Martin, thanks for commenting. The point on TT awareness is a concern in light of the lack of retail channel support. The likes of Smyths Toys or Hattons can do a lot for stimulating of brand awareness with the buying public - more than a website and some TH-cam or Tik-Tok videos. Simon doesn't do admission of mistakes!
My father bought me a triang tt gauge train set. I played with it and the coupling rod screws fell out and were lost on the floor immediately. He went back to the shoip and they chasnged the locomotive. A few weeks later the plastic centre wheel split. It was on 060 tank and two carriages. Today Triang TT gauge is history. Hornby Dublo tried two rail. The track was flimsy unlike Hornby Dublo 3 rail and nobody understood the wiring for points. Meccano failed and the Hornby brand was sold to line Bros. Triang Trains became Triang Hornby.That was in 1964. Lines Bros failed in 1972 because of a new code 100 track and tender drive. The lesson here is that if the quality is poor Hornby TT120 will go the way of Triang TT.
I'll be sticking with OO, but I've got nothing against TT:120 in principle. I admire the 'big bang' approach from Hornby with the magnitude of the range announced, but I'm not sure the distribution, marketing or timing is quite right. But then I thought that iPads, vaping and TikTok were terrible ideas destined to fail, so we'll probably all be on TT:120 by 2025. My recent experience of Hornby is that their models aren't as good as other manufacturers, yet they're prices are higher. I would have preferred that Hornby put their investment into innovation and technology to improve model quality and production. Apart from my 2020 range orders (that still haven't materialised), I'm avoiding buying from them and trying to support the likes of Accruscale, Rapido and Dapol who seems to be pushing the hobby forward.
Thanks for that. I'm with you on all your points (apart from iPads which I've always loved). TT has me torn, my head is full of concerns including Hornby's existing 00 range - which I believe has suffered already as a result of their TT investments. I like the scale and it could be that sweetspot between N and 00 that wins people over. The execution is another matter and the promotion/route to market. I'm not sure a single vendor can make this successful going it alone. There is a massive diversity of views in the comments and I think in most cases people are making valid points either way. The first sets are due in Dec so we'll know more when they arrive....
I think that the likes of Accurascale, Cavalex and Rapido etc are showing Hornby up somewhat with far better products at much more sensible prices. Hornby were a Toy company to start with and although they have pulled up their socks up somewhat over the years, the elastic used in their socks is starting to slacken off and their falling back to their Toy roots and Toy quality. I have always been happy with Bachmann products in both OO and N gauge and recently Heljan have caught my eye. I have a Scotsman TT:120 set up for sale currently.
Having read most comments my impression is that there are a lot more people here taking this initiative positively then the video with just a few people suggests. If there is a risk (there is, I believe) that is in general for model railway markets, as kids have many other modern hobbies to chose from nowadays.
My follow up video to this parsed all of the comments and grouped them in terms of their sentiment and combined that with the viewer poll. I wouldn't say there was a standout winner and unfortunately there was a level of negativity towards Hornby that scewed the negative sentiment. There were a lot of positive comments for sure and more since I cut the follow up video.
This range really appeals to me, I have limited space and I'm a complete novice. Ideally I'd like to build a 6ft layout and TT120 would allow me to hopefully have a decent sized layout.i must agree though that there needs to be access to the range in model shops etc
I am a total newcomer to the UK modelling scene, and am devouring as much data and general information as possible before commiting to a particular scale. Much of my information is derived from popular sites such as yours and already I have pared my viewing preference to about 3 channels, one of which is yours. I would like to thank you for presenting your content in a calm, temperate and balanced manner. I live on a fixed income so value for money and start up costs are very important to me. Another of my favourite channels devotes considerable time and effort in exposing the exorbitant costs demanded by some British manufacturers (ie Hornby) for poor or inferior products. Your comments on the reasons behind this strategy resonated with me, and may be a major factor when I ultimately decide which scale path to follow Untill then, thankyou for sharing your experience with us 'new boys' and I look forward to continuing my voyage of discovery with the help of you and a couple of alternative presenters. Mike P-J
Thanks for that and I'm glad you're finding the channel of use. Getting a decent model at a fair price is something close to my heart and it can be challenging at times. I think one of my upcoming videos might be of particular interest so watch this space....
As a 75 years old recently moved into a small 2 bedroom bungalow, TT ie the perfect solution for me. My eyesight and non nimble fingers found that N gauge was to fiddly and small and so reluctantly had to sell up. Having watched the Hornby's model world on TV I was thrilled to see the creation of TT and have ordered a set almost straight away. Meanwhile a baseboard is under construction and some track purchased (to give me a good idea of measurements etc.) The complaints by some don't realise the competion out there and the need to be the first in order to pick up the custom, I'm absolutely thrilled and eagerly await the delivery (summer) of my set.
Went to see Hornby's TT:120 display at the Gaydon model show today. Looks great! It's just that bit bigger than N but clearly significantly smaller than OO. Early sanple coaches and wagons were very good, with the close coupling looking really nice on the coaches. Correct gauge for scale is a nice side-benefit, too. I prefer the Peco track, but will certainly leave my pre-orders active with Hornby. The OO and N folks may not fancy it, but nothing here affects them as those scales will rumble on for many years yet. This is new and won't be everyone's cup of tea; that's quite OK! For me, it blows N into the weeds, but don't see it affecting OO at all.
I was delighted to see that the coaches had close coupling mechanisms, something that is not universal amongst British models in 00 and N scales but taken for granted from European manufacturers. Now, if they can sort the counterbalance error on the steam loco wheels...
@@marcosborne6540 I gather from the Hornby staff I met at Gaydon that these couplings are the international standard for TT:120. I guess the Chinese factories are set up to use them, and for once a UK company had the sense to adopt the international standard, not come up with some half-arsed version of its own! The counterbalance issue on the wheels was a human error in the tooling phase, apparently. Was assured someone has been shot as an example to the CAD department, and it will be put right! I'd quite like one of the "wrong" ones as a quirky collector's item - would be interesting to see how many people noticed. This does look promising. I was never going to N, but this scale does open up an interesting opportunity for a compact layout to build over the winter when my garden O gauge isn't so appealing.
@@chairmakerPete re the couplings, yes I recognised them as the standard used on European stock and was glad to see they’d adopted it. Great news that they’d understood the counterbalance issue and I appreciated that these were not full production models on show. The affirmation that this will be addressed should quieten various detractors comments. The European stock by the likes of Tillig etc. is rather good. I model N gauge European out of preference but appreciate good British modelling. It’s fantastic to see Hornby adopting good scale standards and innovations in this range. Go for it. Cross to the dark side and enjoy 😄😄😄
TT would be a clean sheet - Manufacturers would not be competing with 25 years of decent secondhand (+older) so I can see the attraction from a commercial point of view. I am surprised that Hornby have ignored Sound (DCC running on analog is an option ) in their marketing as this has a power to draw people in (The price argument may have trumped this). TT 2.5mm is established and has been ticking away in Eastern Europe for decades Piko, Tillig, Arnold and Roco are some of the manufacturers - The scale is nice but hardly mainstream after all these years. I am glad Hornby are operating a closed shop on TT - For a shop, the pressure to stock more is huge. For example I import some German O Gauge - the models are as brilliant as they are niche (In the UK at least) Just 2 manufacturers (Lenz and KM-1) have announced over 200 Loco models this year (If you count livery variations) They will trickle in over the next 5 years, but if I do not order immediately I will not get the stock. That is a huge stock decision to make. In HO it is more extreme, French manufacturer REE have 1,500 models in this years price list. And I deal with 6 other large manufacturers... So no rush to TT from me Cheers for the films. Chris
Thanks for your comments Chris. I don't envy you with having to order for a 5 year horizon like that and dealing with REEs 1500 models. I can see that stocking a TT range on top of that would less than desirable! You're the first to mention sound. It would have been on my wishlist alright.
I'm target market. Always wanted trains, never had space or money. TT is a little more affordable and a lot smaller. I have preordered the set and have 900£ in wishlist. My son is v excited too. I think that's the point, grow the market, not canabalise.
I like the concept and the wide range of models Hornby has announced for TT; however I already have a large amount of HO ( Roco,Piko, Amintiri Feroviare ) and OO (Hornby, Triang, Airfix, Dapol) rolling stock and track, plus I have invested a lot of money into them already, so unfortunately I would not go for the new Hornby TT range
I began with TT in 1959 and only went to 00 when Triang stopped production. I have tried gauge o but its too big for my space, so I've ordered a TT set. With computer design its easy to modify scales and 3d printing will make a large choice available relatively easily.
I’m afraid “Arthur’s” comments are rather childish. a public company like Hornby does not need to take into account every modeler’s opinion. He’s criticizing the decision to go 2.5 mm without knowing the decision making process behind it.
Having moved to a smaller house many years ago and struggled to find space for my OO I can see the benefit in this scale. A lot of people are likely to find this scale ideal as homes are getting smaller. A scale between OO and N might be what many people have been looking for. A GWR set might tempt me.
Hi Paul, I would agree with you. I've always felt N scale was too much of a compromise. If Hornby can deliver good TT:120 models then it could be the answer for people who are space challenged and could even be the difference between someone taking up the hobby or not because they can now accommodate it. Thanks for commenting.
Couldn't agree more. I csn't see new houses getting any bigger, any time soon. Interesting the clip concentrates on existing modellers, when the launch itself had an eye to developing a market to take the hobby into the future. You've also got to suspect that if everything in 00 was rosy, Hornby wouldn't have gone to such lengths in the first place.
Thanks for sharing. I was surprised Heljan backed down so quickly. I'm not pleased with Heljan right now for coming out with duplicate locos we already have enough of - Class 47s and 57s are a case in point. What about taking on the HSTs or Class 800s and give Hornby something different to think about!
Britain needs a scale with correct rail gauge, but this choice baffles me. There are so many old TT models around, surely the right choice was 3mm on 14mm track? Bring lots of old stuff on board, with a wheel change - eg a market for new chassis for old models, meaning a much wider range of models on day one.
Oh, and also: seriously concerned by Hornby's web site only policy. MAYBE for a short time while they iron out bugs, but if they think they can cut out hobby shops etc for good, that is unprincipled and, for me, is a reason to stop buying Hornby altogether- including OO.
Hi, thanks for commenting. I was expecting to see more comments in support of 3mm adoption given there is a community already in place. You make an interesting point re. taking a direct sales model initially - "to iron out the bugs". They need to trial the first models with some respected modelers who will give them a thorough shakedown before inflicting them on the general public. I hope they are doing this.
I'm coming up to retirement age and the last Train set I built was around 20 years ago for my kids, OO with Thomas and Percy etc. The spare room I used is now my office and will be used once again for the new Train set but this time in TT120. I thought about N gauge and really wanted to go that way but always in the back of my mind thinking it was too small. I have pre ordered several Hornby TT items and will be buying the Peco track to suit once the Hornby items arrive. In my eyes this is a perfect scale. Reading the comments on here it also seems that most other people are thinking the same and they are the Customer. Also with the Hornby Bluetooth control system it seems Hornby have a new vision in comparison to the others? Maybe they should put Peco track in the Sets and concentrate on the actual models?👍😎
I might have gone for TT:120 a few years back when my OO collection was much smaller, but it's not really worth it for me now, I do like compact micro layouts, I'm just too invested in OO at this point to switch, the lack of competition throwing in their hats and aggressive get it through us direct or nothing is alarming to say the least.
Bad luck if you live in Australia because you can’t join the TT club or buy TT products online because unlike other markets TT will be sold through a local distributor in Australia. Shame on you Hornby, this has changed my mind on TT.
I am very interested in TT120 and have pre-ordered the two starter sets and may order more once I map out a design. I look forward to seeing the scale enter into the US market.
This video seems unduly biased against TT:120. The vast majority of comments I have seen are positive about the new scale. Personally I would have loved to see the old TT sized models running on 14.2mm track (the old Triang TT being the most ascetically pleasing size to view in my opinion), but realisticly that was never going to happen. I will wait and see what their class 47 looks like before I decide whether to venture into any modelling in this scale. Hornby have said that the models may be available via retailers in the future, but I guess that will mean adding their cut on top of the existing prices, something I'm guessing Hornby wanted to avoid in the launch, keeping it as cheap as possible.
I don't have a particular issue with TT:120 as a scale and state this in the video. It could be an optimum scale for new adopters or people downsizing. I have concerns in not having at least one other manufacturer to help push it as a standard for UK models, accelerate the delivery of a broader range and also to help keep Hornby honest. Also, not having the push you would get from the retail channels for a new product like this could inhibit take up. Having a better margin on product that isn't selling isn't a recipe for success. Hornby should know their business better than the rest of us so I hope they've fully considered all the consequences for their approach. Thanks for commenting.
Having built oo & n gauge layouts was just about to start a new n-gauge layout when Hornby announced TT 120. I decided to get the 2 starter train sets along with extra track to test the waters but I not worried about TT taking off as Hornby have a minimum 5 year commitment alongside Gaugemaster & Peco who are doing their thing .Also Arthur should know that Hornby's choice is compatible with U.S & European TT models.
@@rollergrill Just heljan pulled out for no good reason, as far as I know only gaugemaster & peco are making tt 120 stuff , I heard nothing about dapol .
Thanks for commenting Jason. I think for folks who are either dabbling or building a second layout to their main one, the longevity issue is less of a factor for sure. I've ordered a set myself out of curiosity. If you were intending to pump in £3K-£5K it would be a different story of course and I'd certainly want another UK manufacturer onboard.
Hornby are hitting the market from both ends. They are targeting the entry level consumer (family / kids) with something that can be stored under the bed or in a plastic container for the family to use on the dining room table. On the other end, you have older folks who cannot easily make it up to the loft anymore, or have moved into apartments. N gauge is a bit fiddly for seniors. TT:120 offers the proper scaling too, so less effort for the same look. Hornby have been pricing up OO, probably less about funding and more about competitively placing OO. As for selling direct from Hornby, they can keep the pricing low without having to offer the 40-50% wholesale discounts. It also has the added benefit that any new customers they bring will be kept in the dark about other scales and other manufacturers. There are only so many Flying Scotsman and HSTs they can sell in OO. It will be interesting to see how Bachmann and others react in 2023.
Yeah, sounds like Keegan and William from the video. Hornby do tend to own the entry level so they will have a better ability to lock new entrants into their universe as you say. Over pricing their 00 scale will make their TT range look a lot more cost effective for sure. It will be interesting to see the competitors response for sure. Thanks for sharing.
It may be strange to say, but Hornby have just released a gauge that appears to be waining on the continent. Before the Covid epademic, I travelled to Germany at least twice a year. New leaflets from the manufacturers such as Faller, Kibri & Vollmer alwas seem to have some TT gauge models listed. Today, there appears to be nothing. Unless someone steps in to provide the back-up for the scale, it will be very hard to market. Having spend a lot of time and money on producing the scale, this could be the make or break for the company.
Interesting point. The depth of European support for TT is touted by some though how many people would bring in European TT models is open to question. I can see lots of people tapping into buildings etc. from the likes of Kibri and Vollmer alright - assuming they're still available. Thanks for posting.
Being a TT scale modeller in Hungary for 40 plus years, I have to admit that TT was close to disappear in the early ‘90s -after the German unification and the economic downturn. However after 2000 the scale not only revived, but grew rapidly - mainly as a result of TILLIG production. Some other smaller companies entered the market soon, while ROCO has twice entered and abandoned it. However PIKO is also active. Still not comparable to H0. For Germans primarily there is a wide variety of rolling stock for all Era. Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia is also active. I am not really aware of anything major in the US.
As a 3mm modeller im interested in the new product and for the diesel era a great challenge. building a model of Acton Wells in this scale to test it out.
I am glad that Hornby is getting into TT. I am currently modelling HO. For years I was hoping that some manufacturer would model British models in HO. I think British models deserve the ability to run with other European trains. They are fantastic. With TT we now have that opportunity. OO was far to big to mix with HO. Now I can do just that. I am hoping that Hornby will expand the range of TT to Rivarossi, and Jouef. TT is doing quite well in Eastern Europe. Finally we can have a diverse group of model trains from different countries. British trains have a unique style and beauty, and deserve the opportunity to run a long side of other famous trains. N is too small for me. Cheers!
Thanks for that. Having gone through all the comments last night, you are not alone in calling out the desire to run these models together be it European or North American. Would you look to transition away from H0 altogether once TT is more established? I'm wondering if there is a consequence for H0 modelling in the UK as a result of this?
@@EuviRail Many years ago, when Triang had TT gauge, I was seriously considering going to TT from OO. I had an extensive layout of Triang, but I chose to go with HO, when Triang abandoned TT. I switched to HO, because there was a wider variety of items available ie American, and European, and with better detailing. I do still have a few Hornby OO items, but sadly, they just don’t looking right running next to my extensive HO collection. I will be selling off my HO collection in the near future, and TT, at my age, just makes sense. If you look at Hornby’s international catalogue, Arnold, a Hornby company, is already producing a very limited amount of TT. Arnold quality is quite good, so I am expecting something good to come out of this. I am anxious to see the final product. I’m guessing that Hornby is looking to broaden the market for British trains; and so they should, as British trains are fantastic. Cheers!
@@jetbee1106 Thanks for that. The Arnold stuff looks pretty good detail wise but it does look a bit pricey. I'm not sure how it compares to what's available in Europe? In general, OO and HO locos and rolling stock don't look right together for sure - there are exceptions of course. I have a lot of HO buildings on the layout and they work fine so long as you keep them a distance from your 00 trains. If Hornby can sell UK TT models in Europe and the US then that is net new business for them so very likely to be part of the business case. Thanks again for sharing your model railway journey.
I think TT (1:120) is a great scale. Finally, we have a scale and gauge that match for British railway modelling. This means we can use products from overseas manufacturers (whether buildings, people, rolling stock or whatever) on a British layout without them looking too small. I wonder if there might be a long game for Hornby to introduce more TT in its other - continental - brands. It's a scale that always remained moderately popular in Germany (particularly the former DDR), so there is market for them there. Though it's still niche compared to HO. 3mm scale has - in my view - always been a very niche scale, used by people who had a TT train set in the 1960s, and to me it made little sense. For 3mm, so much has to be scratch built, so why not build it to the "correct" scale? EM/P4 is similarly niche to 3mm, but at least is correcting the OO compromise. I've never modelled British outline, as I couldn't live with the narrow gauge, and regauging all rolling stock is not something I'd want to get into: it is easier (and for a non-xenophobic Englishman really interesting) to model European prototypes. I wonder what all the critics of TT120 would have said if Hornby had instead decided to introduce EM gauged versions of its 1:76 offerings? But it does need more than Hornby and Peco on board, and Hornby need to sell it through model shops. In the past, when there were simply more model shops, many sold OO, HO, N alongside other scales for e.g. military modelling. Even Beatties sold HO, OO and N. It wasn't stocking three scales/gauges that led to the closure of so many model shops in the 90s and 00s. It was that there were fewer people doing railway modelling, and particularly fewer young people starting the hobby.
Thanks Andrew. I'm currently consolidating the feedback and the lack of a second manufacturer and retail support are coming though as genuine concerns. Having a 2nd manufacturer also allows the Hornby factor to be taken out to a large extent which is another major negative that I'm seeing. More anon.
The new tt120 scale is a massive mistake on hornbys part. I really don't see it catching on personally if I was going to a smaller scale I would choose N gauge as it's better supported.
Thanks Gordon. I'm just collating all the feedback and it seems TT has traction with folks who aren't happy with N which is fair enough. There's no debate on the space front for sure - it's more a question of TT giving folks enough leeway and that's the attraction. TT still needs to deliver with quality if it is to be considered a runner at all.
@@EuviRail probably the biggest issue is the fuzzy idea of an international market. Theres basically hornby, a wagon from peco, and thats it. Otherwise its all European prototype, yet they didn't mention this while pumping up an American market in a way to suggest there is an american prototype range out there, which there is really not. You can get some box car kits not much else. This whole international market business is pretty much predicated on selling it to the niche community of german tt modellers who probably arent interested en masse
@@EuviRail you can also add in the silly costs of doing business with the EU as a British company. If you main and biggest TT:120 market is Europe, it doesn't make much sense at all to offer british TT:120 and use the international market as a reason for having done it. The people you're already asking to take a leap into foreign models are also asked to take a leap into dealing with huge import delays and additional costs that I don't see hornby being keen on shouldering. This is possibly already an issue for them in the office with the european brands they own and trying to negotiate it all to come up with a good profit so this just seems even more bizarre.
I was very interested initially, however, I live in Australia, which means I'd be at the mercy of the AUD/GPB exchange rate for anything I want to buy for TT120. Without model shop support, I think Hornby have made a grave mistake.
Thanks Richard. Agree on the model shop front. They could have really helped push TT for Hornby. A high margin product with poor adoption doesn't make sense at the end of the day.
You've got this badly wrong in my view. As an existing OO and N gauge modeller I'm very interested in TT 120 and have already pre ordered a lot of kit. Please lose the music. It is really distracting.
Hi Robert, it definitely comes down to the level of investment people have in their existing scale and you'll see that in the comments on here. If someone has £5K - £10K+ invested in a given scale and 10+ years in work on the layout, moving scale is a massive decision never mind moving to a new scale with limited support. Investing in multiple scales isn't an option for most people to be fair though there are some who do it so in that case TT:120 is definitely worth a shot. Thanks for your comments.
Good video analysis. Seems a vanity project that's doomed before it starts. It will detract investment in keeping Hornby's own 00 product line refreshed with higher spec models in the future leaving the door wide open for Accurascale, Bachmann and Heljan, Betamax seems a good analogy. Hornby are going to hurt their own business and leave the door wide open for competitive 00 products. N is too well established, Hornby have missed the boat. Too much fragmentation. HO track with 00 scale models is something we've all got used to for the past 60 years. Personally I'm heavily invested in 00 so not going to risk investing in TT due to the likely obsolescence within a short time frame. Hornby perhaps irrationally feel at war with some of their own biggest retailers who do their own competitive commissions from time to time, but killing the goose that lays the golden egg comes to mind. Hope it doesn't bank rust Hornby. The company may fail but the brand name will never die and somebody may snap it up for a song if the current company fails, so there will always be a Hornby even if ultimately owned by bachmann's parent or Accurascale.
Thanks for that. Yeah, it wouldn't encourage you to invest in Hornby 00 models goings forward. I always feel it's not good when a manufacturer has an unhealthy relationship with retailers. If you don't look after them, those retailers will go elsewhere and will effectively be fueling your competition. It will be interesting to see how this all develops. As I mentioned in the video, I hope Hornby are prudent enough to reverse on certain decisions if that is required rather than push through regardless to avoid losing face and ultimately paying a heavy price financially.
I have had to give the hobby up due to the price of the hornby items a shame dont think we need another scale think hornby would be better to build locomotive with less detail like old hornby this would make the hobby more affordable to people
Affordability has become a real issue for people entering this hobby. I am a believer that there is plenty of room in the hobby for models with decent motors, decent liveries and modest levels of detail at affordable prices. Hornby's Railroad diesels are step down from this though some of their Railroad steams locos were closer to the mark prior to the last round of price increases. Thanks for your comment.
Looks more appealing than N guage. I can defiently see this scale having fans. Selling directly at first may seem like they are locking out retailers but I think it is more about balancing stock levels vs investment, it's a reasonable step to protect the company andf guage demand over time. Over time they may exoand to retailers. it also avoid confusion for the huge customer base for existing product and retailers dont need to reduce shelve space for existing product.
Hi Freya, thanks for commenting. Your point did come out in the follow up video based from others who had mentioned it like yourself. There definitely seems to be interest in UK TT models being sold in other geographies and of course UK modelers can take in European and North American TT models.
Views on this has been made up, use a photo, fake Voices obviously have a hatred towards Hornby I’ve been modeling in OO for years I’m going to start modeling in TT 120
I'm looking alot at TT120 as a very good compromise between OO and N gauge but I won't make any purchases until more trains are released and hopefully more manufactures will be on board to support it (I'm looking at you Murphy rail)
As a American who typically models HO, I got into TT for modeling 42” gauge equipment used in Newfoundland, i have some agreement of needing the hornby equipment as peco’s flex track could be annoying and there is a need for segments and wide curves for running the larger equipment. In addition i see use in the 6 axel diesels and atleast 2 of the 4-6-2’s for making specific locomotives used on the line. As for regular TT, i see it as another parts source, unfortunately my track currently held is berliner (curves are so tight only the trolleys can make it around) thus leaving it up to what i can find. Berliners are good but parts are scarse, following it is the HP Products which the cars are great (all kits tho) the locos have there quirks but most now are well over 60 years of age, parts have to be custom made.
Great commentary and observations as always unbiased and fair. As for me I will stick to 00 and would N gauge as an alternative if I wanted to change. Even if it was the best thing I still would as with the opinion of others not because of Hornby and what they are doing to the industry and the retailers and I so hope that all the other Manufacturers especially with the great models that have come out this year (not from Hornby) will eventually put Hornby firmly back in its box and that the new scale becomes a harsh lesson to Hornby on how not to do business. We will loose our independent retailers and the choices and value they bring which I am sure no of us want to happen. Tim
They certainly take some teaching. I’ve only been back to the hobby for about 5 years. I’m pretty astonished at what Hornby dishes out to its retailers, also it’s customers and the attitude to it’s competitors. I’ve seen them swerve left to Steam Punk, right to Harry Potter. Attempt to print money with Coca Cola while simultaneously gifting Thomas The Tank Engine to their competitor. Saying retailers shouldn’t manufacture, while manufacturing and retailing??? The “kidz” they employ on their overly corporate looking exhibition stand are about as far away from modelling as you could get. The PR for TT120 was ridiculous. “People in starter homes”. “ bringing in younger modellers “. What? What sub 25 year old is buying a house? And how likely is he to be building physical models? I’ve never heard such patronising rubbish. My Grandad lived all his life in a terraced house in B’ham. He comfortably ran a boarded OO gauge layout. I saw a fair amount of OO shunting layouts at Warley and Milton Keynes. What house won’t they fit in?
As an O gauge kit builder but with insufficient room for a 7mm layout, I like TT120 as it doesn't have the glaring mismatch between track and loco body scales that OO has. For a small layout, TT120 sounds ideal. Given their fairly massive investment in TT120 tooling, I can understand why Hornby have sensibly both maximised their income by direct selling as well as encouraged discounted sales via the TT120 club. With Dapol, Heljan and Bachmann all competing on the 00 side, it makes sense to diversify and encourage those who have never been previously involved in model railways to look at models designed for the smaller house.
I model in 'OO12' - 3 foot narrow gauge, using 12 mm gauge Peco track. On one hand (provided I can see inside the loco body before buying) the class O8 'Gronk' could be useful - an outside framed, outside crank 0-6-0 mechanism has a lot of conversion potential for classic narrow gauge steam. But as for changing from OO, no thanks, I'll stick with the scale I have, due to the reasonably ready availability of parts I can't make for myself. My local rtr train shop, having fallen out with Hornby, will not be stocking Peco track - too little demand. OK - so Hornby wish to sell direct from the factory, undercutting local shops? That's their prerogative. BUT they don't sell all the materials, paints, wood, solder etc on which I depend, and which even a TT120 modeller will need - and if in the process they drive real local model shops out of business, we're sunk. The old Triang TT (1/100th or 3 mm per foot) was at the time an essential compromise - the age old problem of getting the then available smallest motors into British outline models. Our loading gauge is smaller than that of either European or American railways; we've always had to compromise between exact scale and practicality. Now they can use the same scale as the rest of the world do - and hope that overseas sales will help support their ideas. We need to wait and see - and wish them well.
I have yet to build a layout and live in a flat. Bachmann next quarter announcements are due, If there’s more support in addition to Hornby then I’m all in favour of it and I’ll preorder everything. Otherwise I’m going to divert to N.
The Sony comment hits the nail, I see it as Hornby internet only as cost to the model world. Both Bachmann have knocked retailers on the head for discounting or producing models which they are frightened off! As for Arthur his gauge is out of scale, die hard stick in the mud was Hornby going to sell to him anyway? Just hope Hornby DO NOT OVER PRICE THEMSELVES to make this scale work, also with PECO making TT track are they producing this for Hornby or is it the clumsy Hornby scaled down track?
Why are people so negative? Sometimes you have to take a risk, and this is very brave of Hornby. Good luck for trying. I would definitely consider it if starting afresh.... exactly the market Hornby is going for. As a side issue idiots that say things like 'they will never buy Hornby again' are probably doing Hornby a favour. No business needs such ridiculous negativity form their customers. Hornby have also said they are selling direct at the moment to keep prices low and manage their marketing approach responding rapidly as required. When taking such a risk this makes perfect sense. It should also be noted that TT has not done European markets any harm at all, so that is also nonsense.
Thanks for your comments. There is definitely a Hornby factor here which is unfortunate. If we were discussing a Bachmann TT:120 launch I wouldn't expect to see the same responses. I've just finished an analysis of the poll results and comments for a follow up video. This should help add some clarity and take out some of the negative emotion. I look forward to when we can move the discussion on to talking about actual models we have in our hands. Thanks again.
Here in the states I haven't really started collecting domestic models because I have such a wide range of interests, including UK railways. I am also always torn between HO and N scale trains, HO offers more variety but N scale fits within the limited space I have. I would go all in with TT120 if Hornby USA started producing North American prototypes, then I could collect both my favorite UK and US models and they would be able to operate side by side without the differences you get with HO/OO and N scale and it would fit within the space I have.
Many thanks for your comments. This correlates with other comments I have seen on this topic so I hope you get the opportunity to get hold of these models on your side of the Atlantic in the not too distant future.
May I comment as an ex-modeller? My first model railway when I was a child was a Triang TT - Tintagel Castle, some coaches and wagons - all put together on a modestly sized board by the local shop my father bought it from. The TT vanished and the thing just got discarded. I revisited railways in the early 80s, with 00, and it lasted until a change of house meant that was that. I didn't realise the issue with dealers and Hornby, but over the years, so many things I have bought into have faded away and changed - Phillips VCRs, then beta, VHS, H-8 and S-VHS, then of course DVD and Blu-ray. Why are trains different? N was too small, and 00 perhaps just a little too big. The strange track to scale size error didn't;t bother me. TT:120 seems a hole in the market. The 3mm old scale I had assumed was long gone. I think all the video comments just seemed unbalanced. Anything that encourages a hobby to newcomers can't be bad, can it? The people complaining want no change - that is rarely how hobbies work nowadays? If I invested in trains again, from scratch, I think TT:120 could actually work for me? PS I worked for video dealers and spares support from Sony, Toshiba and Sanyo was extremely good. It failed because of numbers. Radio rentals and others ONLY rented VHS, the Baird clone of the Ferguson/JVC
Thanks for that. Could see your ancestry alright from the comments - I've lived through and participated in all of your examples (apart from Triang TT)!
I model in N scale and I am very happy with the models from Kato, Farish, Fleischmann, Minitrix and Dapol. There is some super detailed N scale models I have and I would recommend checking out the Dapol Class 50 in N scale. Its better for detail than the OO gauge Hornby example because non opening doors on the Dapol Class 50 removes those crude gaps and its about half the price of the Hornby version that is dated in tooling. After losing all respect for Hornby and them pushing/pricing me out of OO gauge. I really don't care what happens to Hornby and perhaps they should have improved their OO gauge models on quality. I am happy to buy N scale and if you wanted to try out N scale Eugene, Kato and Gaugemaster have done a Class 800/0 starter set which is reasonably priced. I am glad to be in the N scale band and Hornby can go blow for all I can. I am not happy with Hornby and I don't forgive easily either. Its all £££ as far as they care. All the best Ash.
One scale that I'm actually surprised never was used. Or took hold if it was would be 1/100. To me it seems as though that would have been a very logical "metric" scale size.
3mm is effectively 1/100 and I agree with you in terms of it's relatively low level of traction. I suspect the level of European TT:120 adoption was one of the deciding factors and we can only speculate on the others. The 3mm community are effectively in no mans land now as existing 3mm providers will look to follow the money.
TT120. For people like me. I had as a child a 6' × 4' board. Now as I am older and in a small flat this new range is very appealing. It is something I set up on my tabletop. I am not a modeler. But would to play with my grandkids. Then when finished pack it away.
Thanks for your comments Steven and I think a key point is that for the usage you are looking for, whether TT succeeds or not in the long term isn't really relevant. Will it do what you need it to do for the next few years and is it reasonably priced is what's important. A lot of heavily invested modelers including myself tend to be driven by the long haul which is understandable if that's your end of the market.
I applaud Hornby introducing TT in 1:120 scale. It’s correct to international standards and is going to be supported well. However I remain depressed that few seem to be aware that this scale is alive and thriving in Europe, well supported in terms of rolling stock and accessories manufacture. It is a great scale, well worth looking at as an alternative. I remain also somewhat bemused at the luddite attitude expressed by so many, somewhat similar to the attitude towards DCC which has seen late adoption in the UK compared to European and American modellers.
Its funny how that works, tho we shan’t forget that the same year BR ended mainline steam, many railroads and railways had for well over a decade been diesel or electrified. There is a deep societal mentality that is left unbroken. Though it would be a different world if hornby got HO scale down pat early on, and had done the same with TT back in its early days, who knows just how different things would be.
Thanks for commenting Marc. I'll be the first to admit I wasn't really aware of TT adoption in Europe until the Hornby announcement. As I've only been pursuing UK and Irish models meant I had not reason to look at it. The list of European manufacturers is significant though in many cases a given manufacturer is only supporting a particular part of Europe (which is understandable). I think a lot of people would still like to see another UK manufacturer for multiple reasons. The import/export of models isn't what it was pre-Brexit so unless UK model shops are stocking European items it's going to me more costly for people to purchase 2nd hand off eBay for example. I know, I live in Ireland. I'm not sure why DCC took so long to roll out in the UK. The manufacturers didn't help.
@@EuviRail Yes, it would be great to see other British outline manufacturers get on board with TT120. Continental Modeller covers the European scene and there have been a few TT layouts in there over the years. As for DCC I guess you might be right. I got back into the hobby around 20 years ago and adopted DCC within a year. Never looked back. German outline models from Fleischmann and Trix were available ready chipped or with six pin decoder sockets so converting was easy. Also the German manufacturers have some great DCC control kit by ESU (ECOS) and Roco (Z21). I have used both and both are superb. I struggle to understand why anyone would use other kit given the versatility of these two products but each to their own. I prefer a one stop solution.
Hi Guys Just another thought as going to start in the hobby next year when we settle into a new home, I'm going to have to go down the budget side of things and for me that means start with some second-hand loco's and rolling stock so going down the road of TT there will be nothing there for the second-hand market which for me narrows what I can get started with so sorry hornby but not for me Cheers Mark
Absolutely Mark. I should have brought that point up in the video. This is the way I got back into the hobby. A lot of good points raised in the comments and there is also the poll so a follow up is warranted.
I think its a superb and bold decision by Hornby and long overdue. I would love a layout but I am struggling for space for all my OO gauge models and lack any proper ability to create a layout. I saw a TT layout at a recent exhibition and always felt it would be an ideal gauge to accommodate in my space. N gauge is too small and fiddler, and never convincing enough detail wise. Well done Hornby its the scale I've bee waiting for. Oh the fake Pakistani shop owner was a joke and unconvincing in the video.
Thanks for sharing. To be honest I wouldn't be happy with N scale myself and see TT:120 as potentially an optimal scale and definitely appealing for those who haven't yet taken the plunge on a major layout investment. The concerns of quality of execution, manufacturer and retail channel support are still there. Railway modelling needs something like this to help develop the hobby so I hope each of these gets addressed in the coming months. Looking forward to seeing the first set in December and we'll go from there. Mirai will be highly insulted. She's supposed to be Indian!
Was the TT layout you saw at a recent exhibition TT:120? I very much doubt it, more likely it was TT:100 which is 3mm to the foot, a totally different scale which many people are confusing it with.
I’ve wanted this for years - as I head towards state pension age I’ll be taking a close look. I’d like to see a BR diesel multiple unit available. That would really help keeping it all cosy and realistic in the smaller space.
As some one who was looking at getting in to modelling, i was initially looking at 00 gauge, now that tt120 has come out, i am thinking i could have quite a bit more in the amount of space i will have available to me. The only thing is product range is limited at the moment so i will probably sit back and see what happens. N gauge is another option but for me its a little to small, i am a little clumsy and dont want something so small that i cant see a lot of detail. I certainly dont wish to offended anyone who has invested into 00 or N gauge but i do wonder why people are so triggered by the introduction of another gauge, surely there is room for all three, had i a room i could take over then 00 would be my choice as i dont have a spare room then tt120 is looking more attractive to me and there must be lots of people in my position who want to get into this but dont have room and who dont want N gauge as its just too small.
I feel that my concerns have already been said by other commenters and don’t need repeating: lack of widespread scale support, the availability of N gauge, current economic pressure on households, lack of involvement with our retailers. I have been a OO gauge modeller all my life and see no reason why I should change. Hornby, you have set yourselves up for a big fall; it will be a sad day should your name be added to other names consigned to history. Alan 10:58
I'll be checking out the Eastern set in the New Year. Going it alone on a new scale like this is a massive endeavor and a massive risk. I hope for their sakes they've done their homework. Many Thanks for commenting.
I think a big problem for TT120 will be the fact that there is no cheap 2nd hand market , everything you need -loco's rolling stock, track and buildings will need to be bought brand new for full RRP, yeah good luck with that at hornby prices , if i want to model Midland region in mid sixties then how long do i have to wait for a royal scot to become available?, how long for a class 25? , i think TT120 is a tough sell and hornby are further limiting reach of the range by not selling via retailers , TT120 is the modern version of hornby's live steam ....
A few folks making the same point re. the lack of 2nd hand models which is an obstacle for any new scale, and building a full new range is going to time which is why more manufacturers are needed to instill buyer confidence and get them to hang in there. It's hard to go it alone (per live steam!) Thanks for commenting.
I am a 00 modeller at the moment with plans to build a large layout in my 20ft shed. I will however build myself a TT120 layout for use indoors as it requires less space. I think if successful Hornby will set up a dealer network for the scale, but they have to start somewhere, on-line only for a few years will help. My biggest concern is that production of the new scale will detract from production of 00 in China as I suspect that priority will now be given to TT120.
Thanks for your comments. Would share your concern. Unless the factories in China are increasing capacity to compensate then there will have to be an impact somewhere.
I am a 3mn TT modeller but I do own and run quite a few continental TT locos and stock on my TT layout, the new range from Hornby,hell yes about time,I have pre ordered quite a few items and can't wait for them to be released. As for my 3mm layout and large collection of stock,that's going no where ,the 2 can happily live side by side on my layout.
TT:120 is a solution looking for a problem. Hornby's arguments for this scale all come down to portability, but this doesn't solve the most obvious problem which is getting a broader demographic interested in models in the first place. Size doesn't matter, because assembling a TT:120 track is no less fiddly than 00 - and most customers would still prefer to have a 'fixed' setup (which goes against Simon's archaic idea of Little Johnny pulling set out from under his bed). Hornby needs to realise that you don't need to have a working railway to enjoy these trains, they can be used as display pieces. Plus, a child coming from Playtrains has already experienced a larger gauge, so why would they go down to smaller one? I have no quarrel with the TT:120 scale, but I'm seriously mystified as to Hornby's approach to their marketing. It's so poorly thought out.
Thanks Thomas. The discontinuity versus Playtrains is a very valid point I missed and I'm with you on the need to broaden the demographic if the hobby is to survive at it's current level in the longer term. Jury is out here I think.
The arguments don't all come down to portability. There's a nice 25% increase in model size over N which makes a less toy-like appearance possible. The direct selling model gives opportunities for lower pricing (sorry comedy Pakistani model shop owner - you can't make money off this). If Hornby adopts Bluetooth battery DCC, the target audience (youth) will be very receptive. This isn't for the existing (old) hobbyists as much as for a new breed of enthusiast. Though as an old got myself, "I'm in".
1/120 ist nicht umsonst als Modelleisenbahn für den Tisch bezeichnet worden. Sie passt im Grunde in jede Wohnung. Einfach mal bei TH-cam reinschauen. In Deutschland gibt es viele TT- Bahner. Die aus den Vorteilen gelernt haben. Das der Maßstab keinen Unterschied macht sollte doch besonders einem OO Bahner gegenteilig klar sein. Natürlich macht es einen Unterschied.
For me TT120 is irrelevant after decades of OO. OO is very well served, and I could survive without Hornby. The only reason for Hornby doing this is that they think a monopoly in a small pie might be better than a small slice of the big pie in which they are steadily being out competed. Don't mind if TT120 succeeds or fails.
@@EuviRail I agree with you on Hornby trying to weasel more from the pie or hoarding a new pie. look at what they have been trying recently. the missing Lion after Hornby tried announing making their own Titfield thunderbolt set. with out license and they where quickly shot down. flooding the market with generic 2 axle coaches after Hattons Genesis coach program started moving.
Im new to the Hobby and im very interested, for someone with limited space and eyesight, this seems perfect. Im looking forward to buying my 1st set and beginning my journey.
Finally the UK is catching up with our european cousins who already support and produce a large range of models in the TT:120 scale. It provides a balance between space and detail. If they have done their research correctly they will be able to enter a new market in Europe while having the benefit of creating a new market in the UK. IMO existing modellers are not the market for this product. The HO/OO market is becoming increasing full of to many manufactures produing to many of the same model with different results. I think Hornby for once have done a sensible thing here…Hats off and TT scale once model looks extremely impressive. but i could be wrong and likely am lol
Yeah, the European angle could be very important and work well for them in both directions. Yeah, its primarily a product for new entrants, people returning to the hobby or those with only modest investments in other scales. The quality, fidelity and performance of the first TT:120 models Hornby deliver is going to be so important. I hope they don't cut any corners to just get "something" out there quickly. Personally, I'm hugely invested in 00 but I would be curious to put one of the TT:120 sets through it's paces. Thanks for commenting.
@@EuviRail Could not agree more with your comments. If Hornby have quality issues with the 1st batch of locos / rolling stock etc then I suspect it will be good effort but no thanks. If you are already invested in any other scale then unless you have lots of space then it would not be the product for you.....likely wrong though lol. I think it is perfect for new people to the hobby and especially young children. I remember as a child having N which was really fiddly but could run massive trains and HO which even though looked a lot better....but space was my issue. In recent years I ended up modeling in Lego of all things. Now we have the ability to have sound decoders.....Lego trains with sound.....different level lol. In Europe the models produced are brilliant and the detail is second to non and you have full support from all the main manufacturers. I recently got back into 00 scale because I wanted a HST and at the time Hornby had not released the TT range. It is a real shame as all my favorite trains expect the HST was available in the TT scale Keep up the great work, I do enjoy the channel.
It seems to be gaining traction alright and the set I tested a few months after this video was decent where it counted. Definitely a decision point for new entrants to the hobby and someone who may be downsizing.
As a 3mm modeller most of my life (I am nearly 70), I just ask one question - why? 3mm scale already exists so why did Peco and Hornby decide on another scale and not support the 3mm community which is already there? Total insanity in my humble opinion.
I've been asking the same question. I guess the main argument has been alignment with the large range of European TT models. 3mm would have had an existing base of consumers and suppliers in the UK. To be honest, I only got visibility to the scope of the 3mm world when researching for this video. I fear I'm not alone which is why it isn't getting the level of support here I thought it might do. Thanks for commenting.
I have mixed thoughts on this new range. Whilst I totally understand the benefits of it taking up less space, I think it's yet another example of Hornby trying to create a monopoly (that theory is strengthened having learnt about Heljan cancelling their TT:120 range, and the fact that Hornby is keeping theirs exclusive to their website).
I think many are feeling the same. If there was another manufacturer and they were selling through retailers I think people would be feel happier about it. Thanks for commenting.
And on the issue of retailers, Hornby themselves have said it’ll be website exclusive to begin with, and once the range picks up traction it’ll be made available for retailers. Do you honestly think every single retailer that is currently complaining about the range being website exclusive would take on the entire thing had it been made open from the beginning? Absolutely not is my answer. History proves this to be true. Look at triang TT, most shops hated it.
''I think it's yet another example of Hornby trying to create a monopoly'' but any other manufacturer could have taken the plunge. it's an open market. it's just that hornby did so
I currently have the 2 starter sets and the 9 steam locos on preorder, I am hoping to go all in for this, but I will reassess the situation when I actually have some product in hand. This could be a gold mine for Hornby or kill their business financially and credibly. PS I do have 10s of thousands of pounds in OO gauge stuff, so this is not an easy decision.
@@MoleculeMind7 probably because he’s a grown adult that realises good things in life cost money and that model trains are a luxury item, not something essential to someone’s survival in life.
@@MoleculeMind7 Actually pricing is a big issue, but there is no point in complaining about it when you can't even buy a decent loaf of bread and a pint of milk for 2 quid anymore. I was wanting the Turbomotive and the Coronation coaches, but at £260 for the loco and over £500 for all the coaches, I've decided I have enough OO gauge. Space is also a big consideration along with storage.
@@davidwatts1871 as a person with an ordinary job with all my own bills to pay including rent in the London area, I could have the train you specified in about 5 months. I think the issue perhaps is expecting to be able to buy all of everything immediately. To do that locos must not exceed £20 and coaches/wagons 50p at the most. Dream on I would suggest. I think the whole idea is you’re meant to save up and appreciate what you have instead of trying to have all of it now. What happened to getting your big presents at Christmas and birthday?
Hornby has current experience with TT120 and N via Arnold who they own. The range on their website of German outline is small though and TT120 has only ever been popular in central Europe. My own view is Hornby has long been conscious that they only make one scale themselves so bought into Ho via Rivarossi and Jouef. Other brands are multiscale: Marklin-Trix (Z, N, Ho, 1) Dapol (N, OO, O) Piko (N, TT120, Ho, G) Bachmann (N, Ho, OO) Roco-Fleischmann (N, TT120, Ho) Brawa (N, Ho) Heljan (Ho, OO, O) Rapido UK N, Ho Tillig (TT120, Ho)
As a long time O Gauge collector and modeller looking at a future downsizing of hobby space, the TT120 range offers a lot of possibilities. I haven’t operated small gauge since HD 3-rail in the 1950’s and 60’s, so have no vested interest in OO, or N Gauge. Plus living in Canada makes on line shopping particularly appealing.
Thanks for sharing that. There's definitely a cohort of people in similar circumstances who see TT:120 as an attractive (or possibly only) option for them to either re-enter or stay in the hobby. If Hornby are shipping direct to Canada then that's a plus too.
I did briefly model in 3mm scale but gave up due everything being in kits.I think Hornby have made a wise decision in adopting the continental TT scale of 1/120.This will allow some use of the the European ranges of TT scale. If I were starting a fresh now I would consider TT scale.You have more space compared to 00 and more detail compared to N gauge.
I like the idea that it'll provide us with a true scale for British outline railways. At the moment however that's about the only thing I see going for it. Terrible idea not to sell into shops. You can't just go to your local model shop and buy it there and then. You'll have to order it and wait for it to be delivered; no rushing back from the shop to crack on with the layout or run in the new loco. For myself, I'm far too committed to OO.
I seriously considered N gauge, and yes - you can make jokes about my eyesight too - but my dexterity was never that good, and yet I like making kits and scratch building. I started purchasing 00 and building a layout, but I really wish TT:120 had been around 3 years ago when I started. Every part of my layout has been compromise after compromise, and I have a lot of space. I can't even run around a 7 coach train on an 8 ft station board in 00 (my room has 16 ft sides), and having every feature bounded by a sharp curve is the bane of 00 modelling. Lets have a look at the pros and cons: Pros. 1. It's an accurate scale/gauge ratio (the only mainstream one smaller than 0 gauge). 2. It's large enough for intermediate kit and scratch builders to give it a go. 3. It has the support of the largest manufacturer of UK outline, and the largest supplier of track and accessories. 4. at 1:120, or 2.5 mm / ft, you can either fit 60% more layout in your space, or run much longer trains. 5. For new product it is noticeably cheaper than 00. Cons. 1. It only has the support of one loco manufacturer. 2. There is a limited range of product available right now or in the immediate future. 3. There is no second hand market of product available. 4. Not available in model shops. Now will it negatively impact 00 scale? Hard to say. I feel like almost every popular prototype has been covered by at least one manufacturer, sometimes 2 or 3, in versions going back 50 years. I am frankly annoyed every time Hornby brings out a model of the same thing another manufacturer announces - it would be far better for them to make something the model world hasn't already seen a bunch of. How many new releases of real consequence have Hornby released in 00 scale over the past 3 years? Better then invest their efforts in a new and accurate scale than they chase after ever precious, expensive and fragile models that fewer and fewer people will care about. I am sure they can coast along with "new and improved" releases of older 00 models for another 20 years without losing money on that side of the business. After all, it seems to me that's what they have been doing for the last 20 years. As a more recent modeller, I am sure the hobby looks very different to me than to the established folk of 10, 20 or more years in the hobby. To you longer time modellers, you have all the base stock in your chosen era. You are looking for special, rare items to fill in some gap or fancy. For recent starters, it has been much more frustrating. Models which are staples of any era are unavailable new, until some manufacturer announces them - and then they sell out on pre-order within days. Where can I pick up a new Deltic, or a class 31? Not to mention everything is over £150 - sometimes north of £200. I would be glad to be in on the ground floor, where I can order each new outline in my chosen era and region, at a price I can afford, without feeling forever "behind" all the established modellers. Bottom line: they are (finally) taking a real risk and trying something new. I applaud them for that, and hope that it succeeds.
Hi, many thanks for your detailed commentary and analysis. You also point out a lot of failings in the 00 world today which I would agree - duplication of models, a trend towards high priced ultra detailed models, the push to pre-order everything before anyone has actually seen and tested the real thing. Hornby could have helped address Con#3 by engaging the other manufacturers and perhaps agreeing not to duplicate models for say the first 12 or 24 months. I can hear anyone reading this saying fat chance of that ever happening. As it stands they are now reliant on another manufacturer making the call. Hornby can fix Con:4 themselves. If both of these were addressed I believe they would have a fighting chance at least given the level of support I'm seeing in the comments.
You are aware than TT is only 0.48mm/ft larger than N gauge? So not much of a difference. British N Gauge is only 0.7mm under scale and barely noticeable st normal viewing distances.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 I have no British n-scale (I have some North American and I find it tricky especially in steam). However, that .48 makes TT 25% bigger than UK n-scale, and a whole 33% bigger than international n-scale. Since I am starting without an initial investment in N, to me TT makes more sense. It's "right" in terms of scale, and it's between 25 and 33% bigger than n-scale (depending on which version of the bible you read).
@@neiloflongbeck5705 For me, as I said, I have tried N in NA outline, and steam has been too iffy performance wise, and I struggle to craft decent buildings with it. I can probably manage TT a bit better. Also I find that while N is great for modelling large sweeping landscapes, it is hard to get that "chunky real feel" up close in such a small scale. I am hoping that TT will be a decent compromise.
I am planning to start my first track this year and upto now I was planning to start in N-scale. But the TT120 gave me food for thought. It is more detailed, the figurines are more detailed only the lack of trains and accesoires for a while let me think for a bit more ....
I model OO9 for the space savings of N and secondhand availabilities of OO/HO that are scaled the same. Bachmann and Peco has increased their ranges for scale specific products in the last few years already. Hornby is just splintering the already niche space.
I think you are unfairly biased in your initial comments e.g. describing the lady and her son as "naive". As someone with a large collection of OO, I have already taken the plunge and pre-ordered several TT120 models. I have never been happy with the fact that OO is a mongrel "Scale/gauge" and so too is UK N "Scale". On the other hand, TT120 has the correct gauge for the locos and I think that is noticeable even from the short videos of the A4 train set. I don't agree with Hornby's decision not to use retailers as if new blood can't see the models in a shop they won't know they exist; however there are rumours that they will be available through retail in e.g. Australia, so perhaps they will appear in shops in the UK eventually. I will be selling off my OO and starting over ;)
I might have been a bit harsh with the naive comment but the point is that N scale is established, proven and readily available. Hornby's TT:120 is unproven, not yet available and their is currently no backup manufacturer to help broaden the range and also help keep Hornby honest. The lack of presence in toy and model shops also bothers me. Good retailers can be great in pushing products for you. If another manufacturer chose to take on TT:120 and sell it through retailers, I would expect a strategy change from Hornby. Leaving the high street to a competitor would be suicidal. Having the correct scale/gauge is a scourge of 00 gauge and with a lot of vendors supporting re-gauging on their models I'm wondering if we might see a change here. If Hornby's TT:120 end product hits the mark it will be a worthy option though I'd still like to see another manufacturer step in and that's coming across in the channel poll. Many thanks for you comments.
I am someone for whom the scale/gauge discrepancies of both 00 and N (and TT3) are unacceptable. I dabble with 2mm finescale, but that (like 3mm) requires too much do-it-yourself to suit me - plus, it is really too small. All models are compromises; TT120 looks to me lie a very attractive compromise, but it needs a big enough range: no realistic model railway can be populated only by the biggest passenger express locomotives. As a sign of Hornby's willingness to engage, I e-mailed Simon Kohler this morning with some thoughts about the direction I thought TT120 should take: he responded within the hour - how does he find the time? These are early days; I look forward to the further releases from Hornby in the coming months - whether they entirely meet my personal preferences or not.
No interest at all in hornby or their version of TT scale. If I wanted to go to a smaller scale I would have gone to N not TT. I have seen plenty of TT layouts when I have visited various model fairs in Germany and it has never appealed. If I didn’t already have so much HO stuff when I retired I would definitely have gone to N gauge, but while the range is huge I cannot get all the same items in N that I can in HO. So I definitely will carry on ignoring hornby and their overpriced items.
@@EuviRail yeah, but you could say the same about 0. And 00. And H0, and S, TT, N, H0e, H0m, in fact every scale bar I, II, and III. Remember that what we know as being 00 withered and died after its first introduction, only to have another auspicious many years later, until it finally took hold. Also we have to remember that N scale didn't kill triang TT. Slot cars did. Airplane kits did. Teevee did. The same also killed 00 in the UK, and to a certain extent N and 00. When triang TT died there was no N scale UK range. Dublo was bankrupt. Triang went bankrupt a short time later. Lone star went bankrupt. Hornby are just expanding into a market. As Marklin figured: they didn't want to just become another N gauge manufacturer, so created Z. Hornby probably don't want to become just another N gauge manufacturer, doing the same locos as what everyone else is doing, which everyone comments about: hornby, Bachmann, dapol, heljan how many times have they spent lots doing the same rolling stock as each other?
@@muir8009 Yeah, absolutely, Anyone who has invested £10K+ in a given scale plus 100s or 1000s of hours on layout development is going to need a major reason to change (e.g. downsizing, divorce etc. and certainly won't make that decision based on an unproven new range from a single manufacturer. Hornby's demo run in the video wouldn't inspire confidence but I choose not to comment on this in the video as it was a prototype. Don't get me started on the duplication from manufacturers. This doesn't do anyone any good.
@@EuviRail absolutely agree. And from what I can gather new scales have rarely made people 'change' per se, more enticing would be buyers with a practical alternative when the purchaser is looking at a fresh start. What I do find a little intriguing is how many commenters on the subject seem to fall into the category of the desire to possess only one scale, and on that single scale a vast accumulation of every item of rolling stock, wildly beyond the use in pursuit of realism. Doesn't matter of course, it's more just this immovable single scale pursuit. I feel the tt120 could make a change for those with a small 00 layout without massive investment, who are struggling with the massive size that is present day 00. Its easy to forget that in the day the first 00 was tiny compared to today's offerings, even 0 at the time was a space saver. I've read a lot of commentary that people pursued N as the space saving alternative to 00, not because they like N particular (generally considered just too small, lacking the 'mass' of 00), but moreso that it's the only alternative. It's always one of those things too: does Hornby stagnate with a range of 00 and nothing but 00, endlessly duplicating the same products with the same competitors? Pretty much the Same conundrum as other large manufacturers. Still think they could've given it a go with S; only one mass competitive range (00 only as opposed to 00 and N) and smaller but with the mass given by 0, but without the expense, and with the space saving advantages. Could add of course Bachmann brought out 0n30 with very limited products, and almost no commercial precedent. G scale was a complete orphan, took many, many years before that gained a foothold. It's interesting times :)
"I have seen plenty of TT layouts when I have visited various model fairs in Germany and it has never appealed" - go and see TT layouts in the UK then John, and I mean TT:100 (3mm) and you might change your mind. There's three of them at Warley NEC in November!
As a very occasional modeller, TT120 looks interesting to me, not least because it avoids the 1:76/1:87 difference. I like the idea of displaying foreign and UK hardware together on the same track. I’ll try out a TT120 train set when available.
Thanks David. If I was in your shoes I would probably look to try it out as well.
It looks interesting to me. I haven't modelled for years, but coming back into it, this scale would work well. As for product support, as long as track is available, scratch building is always an option. Frankly, outside of locomotives, I prefer scratch/kit built anyway.
but it HAS created a brand new dilemma/ difference - between 1:100 [actually 101.6] the original TT scale IN BRITAIN and 1:120 [the foreigners' 'Imperial' not metric scale!] - between 3mm:ft [1mm representing 4"] and 2.54mm:ft [er, um 1mm representing 3.3867"!?!] - stupid really
I think it is a fantastic development in general. I am too far down the road with my HO/OO layout to change now. But If I was starting a new layout a fresh I would be on this double quick time. The compatibility with European TT would be a huge factor for me too. I think what Hornby and Peco are doing is genius in fact. I saw some TT layouts in Germany years ago and I can clearly recall thinking to myself at the time 'this is the perfect scale'.
Thanks for that. I haven't seen it "in the flesh" yet but it does look like a good compromise scale between 00 and N.
@@EuviRail I got some more interesting info on this from someone on the inside and this is going to be a whole new approach to marketing model railways outside that of the traditional hobby scene. Games Workshop style. The idea is to sell model trains to the general public as a 'take the layout of of the box and then pack it away when finished' - like GW Fantasy or 40K games. There will be highly detailed scenic modules to conform to the radius of the track for people who do not want to make scenery. Everything plug and play but to a very high quality. Traditional modellers will still build their classic layouts so there is something for both markets. Before Games Workshop wargaming was a very small hobby. Now look at it. So potentially this is something of a watershed in the history of model trains.
I'm actually quite excited about the TT 120 announcement from Hornby. That doesn't mean I'll be walking away from 00 though. I have a large 00 steam era layout which is still very much work in progress. I've been wanting to build a separate more modern image layout too though but don't have the space for it. Not having very good eyesight N scale would be a bit small and fiddly for me but TT looks a good compromise. I've actually pre ordered one of the starter sets and am eyeing up the TT HST and Class 50! I wish Hornby well in their new venture and really hope it's a success.
Thanks Rob. Looks like a few people on here are going to do the same thing for similar reasons. Sounds good to me.
As someone looking at downsizing from OO to N due to house size constraints the announcement of TT:120 has caught my attention as the perfect middle ground of OO's details and performance and N gauge's size. Here's hoping Bachmann and Dapol invest into it as well.
Thanks for your comments. I suspect Bachmann and Dapol are struggling with this one given their market position in N gauge. Agree though that multiple vendors are needed to increase the range of models more rapidly and help keep everyone honest. Yours sounds like the one of the classic use cases for TT:120.
TT 1:120 scale has lots of possibility. 12mm track is standard gauge, 9mm track is 3'6", 6.5mm track is 2'6". So those that do Narrow gauge or even mainline 3'6". The future products has a huge number of prototypes that could be modeled. Small makers can take advantage of this new scale before the big guys ramp up.
It would definitely be good to see some other vendors supporting TT:120, driving innovation and keeping Hornby honest from a competitive perspective.
@@EuviRail Tillig is making TT120 track, so that is a big help. We don't need a Lionel track or equivalent to a third rail system taking over a market. It will be interesting to see if the big makers can tap into those 3D resin DIYers who can do designs the big guys can license. 3D to injection molding or Die casting?
DEATH OF MODEL RAILWAYS ???
I think what is far more important are the reasons behind Hornby's decision to dive into TT 1:120, and whether this is a bit of a panic or kneejerk reaction to major problems in the marketplace. There is rapidly growing evidence across the whole of Europe that the model railway market is taking a nosedive.
The Internet is rapidly killing off Newspapers, books, & magazine sales. 50% of all Model Railway magazine titles across Europe have disappeared in just the last 10 years!
Organisations like Amazon are effectively killing town centres, as even cities like Bristol are visibly dying with boarded up shops everywhere. This "lack of need" to go shopping, just buy it on the internet, means hobby shops being specialized niche markets are suffering badly.
Many specialised expert model railway shops have vanished, in the last twenty years. Replaced in a limited degree by back street "internet" shops, solely interested in the "financial throughput" not the expertise end of the hobby. But even these now also seem to be vanishing. A clear indication the market is now shrinking.
Indeed probably the best example is Nurnberg the Toy & Hobby City of Europe since 1645. Germany has always been the biggest Model Railway market place in Europe. Which 30 years ago had in excess of 20 large model railway shops. But as of 2023 only two are left.
In Spain the problem is far worse, as there appears to have been around a 75% shrinkage in just 5 years. With 28 model railway shops, now down to just 6 or 7 in the whole of Spain.
Hornby's CEO was saying just a year ago, that Hornby had to increase customer numbers, or the future was bleak ! Indeed Hornby have only themselves to blame in opening the door near 30 years ago to a rapid rise in competitors. Thanks to Hornby's then move to the Sandakan plant in Hong Kong. Which showed virtually every model railway manufacturer in Europe that production costs could be massively reduced if you moved to China. Opening the door to many newcomers as well.
Now the China "bubble" appears to be bursting, & certainly Hornby has been looking to relocate production back to Britain. But much of its current "OO" range tooling is NOT owned by Hornby. And the opportunity to introduce TT scale is based on a long term & growing problem that the average "Home" size, has been shrinking steadily all across Europe for 30+ years. Meaning the traditional 8 x 4 layout is now not an option. So a smaller scale is the only way out of the dilemna, but may prove financially fatal, (huge investment is needed in tooling) if the market is shrinking as suddenly & rapidly as it is beginning to appear. If Hornby fails, most of its current competitors are likely to fall with it, as they rely on Hornby providing the track & other peripherals to get started !!!
Challenging times for sure and the China shift will be seizmic but it needs to happen. The deniers will say that no one else can produce cost effective models. What about Kato in Japan? Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I am really interested in TT120, to me it seems the ideal answer to a smaller space house. I would like to see them on sale in model shops though.
That's what N Gauge has been doing since the 1960s. The difference between British N Gsuge and TT is 0.48mm/ft, so there is no benefit for TT over N Gsuge.
@Nigel UK56 not being a spring chicken either, I'm not finding it a problem. My father, in his 80s is modelling in 0 and having to put onto his models all the fiddly little details that I can omit. His layout is not much larger than mine in area.
@Nigel UK56 whilst what you say is true the difference is a mean 3mm in track gauge. You might as well go to 00 as that is 4.5mm wider than TT. You aren't be the only one with poor eyesight.
Any way it's funny that Hornby is now pushing a new scale for the UK when they were instrumental in the stopping of accurate track in the 1940s.
TT:120 is for many a good idea, simply because it’s a compromise which fits modern homes and life styles, but the problem is Hornby have effectively strangled the market by trying to control all sales direct to them, most people who they are trying to appeal to will look in the shops , toy shops , model shops and places like Amazon. As a result sales will be low and then they will offload the stock saying it is a loss maker, as such the idea is probably dead on arrival.
I agree with this
Agree on both points. You can't create a new standard (for the UK) on your own and you need your channel partners to help push adoption. Hornby looking to go it alone on both fronts. Thanks for commenting.
Is this just another case of bad British business decisions like the post WW 2 car industry failures? Steve Robinson
As a former TT3 guy I loved the scale but hated that it ran on 4ft gauge track, the front view was awful. I have similar views about the front end views on both N and 00. TT120 is a much finer match and thus appeals. I think given time this great new scale could be a 00 killer, but Hornby really need to get their act together and make their Webb site less clunky. TT120 is the way for me if I decide to do another layout in the loft rather than the G scale one in it at present. My Garden G line will continue to be fine for that scale. Long live TT120 and I look forwards to Bachmann and others getting in on the bandwagon, but please please please if you do, do not duplicate existing Hornby products or their new announced ones.
Thanks for commenting John and I thoroughly echo your last point for when the other players come onboard!
I have pre-ordered the Easterner Set from Hornby, more out of curiosity than anything else! I had earlier obtained some Triang TT gauge, but came to the conclusion that it was to primitive by modern standards. I am glad that Hornby is introducing TT:120. I think it is good because it will enable modellers to make a better representation of a real station. In OO gauge, you are hard pushed even if you have an 8 x 4 baseboard! I think the reference to TT3 modellers and OO gauge model shop owners being upset is not relevant. There are hardly any TT3 layouts in the entire universe. Striking out to create a new scale is the right thing for Hornby to have done. Thanks for uploading.
Take a look at the quality of the German stuff from Tillig, Piko and Arnold. If Hornby are going to match that then they've set the bar high from the outset.
@@marcosborne6540 Don't Hornby own Arnold?
@@andrewstevenson5449 yep, and Rivarossi, Jouef, Lima and Electrotren. They acquired them all when they bought the Rivarossi group
Thanks Allen. The space/size compromise aspect is coming through a lot in the feedback for sure. If you've gone with N and are happy with it then no discussion but some folks aren't happy with N and see TT as the sweetspot.
@@EuviRail I created a Facebook group for Hornby OO Gauge. Afrer II added "and the new TT:120" to the byline, a lot more people joined! From this I conclude there is a large pent-up demand for TT:120, and that Hornby has made the right decision to introduce British outline in this scale. I recommend you order the Easterner Set, as the the Pullmans in the other "Scotsman" set do not have lights, but the non-train set Pullmans will be lit, in true Hornby, tradition! Please post a link to your uploads, and contribute to the discussion as this will get you more views! Thanks.
As a diehard N'Gauge modeller I would probably be sticking with N'Gauge as there are many nice stuff in N'Gauge these days it will take years for TT to catch up to the same level as N'Gauge
100% understandable and it will take a long time to achieve equivalence. Thanks for sharing.
I think it has the potential to explode in popularity overnight.
@@EuviRail Btitidh N Gauge is half a mm per foot smaller than N Gauge, and to the same level of detailing, making TT pointless.
I’m excited for TT. Not had a set since I was a kid.
TT is a great size for my house. I’d looked at other scales in the past but always found it too confusing and unclear as to what manufacturers supported others.
TT is that safety net of knowing there is a decent range of locos available at launch, with hopefully more on their way.
If I find my confidence with TT1:120, it might even be my gateway into other small scales.
I do feel for the model shop owners, but having said that, since the announcement of Hornby TT, I’ve already visited more model shops in the last month than I had in the previous 10 years, and have spend money on modelling books, scenery and some die cast 1:120 models. And I think that’s a really important part of what was missed in the video; brining new people and a new audience into the model community.
I’m not saying the other scales are probably better for existing modellers, but for me it’s a nice way to ease into model railways and have my hand held a bit.
Surely TT can’t be a bad thing if it bring more people into the model community? I really don’t see it as Hornby forcing any existing modellers to switch over. I think it’s a great way for new people to join the community. For me, the biggest risk associated with it is the worry that TT modellers May not feel welcomed by the community.
Many Thanks for your comments Chris and I can assure you that TT:120 modelers (and any new modelers) are more than welcome to the community. I would hope that TT:120 can be a vehicle for new people to enter the hobby who wouldn't have had the opportunity otherwise. We're all in this together. I 100% agree with you in terms of the impact of the model shops and they provide a service to the industry that I fear is undervalued. Not bringing them to the party is a mistake which I hope will be rectified over time. If Hornby can deliver good quality models that look and run well, then TT:120 will be both an excellent starting point for modelers like yourself and a potential transition option for established modelers down the road. There is marketing and reality of course. So one thing I try to do on this channel is to cut to the reality - which can be painful at times. The proof of the pudding is in the eating so we look forward to seeing what Hornby serve up in December!
@@EuviRail Thanks for your reply. Just to clarify, reading back over my previous comment, when I spoke about potentially not being welcomed by the community I should have probably said “some corners of the community” rather than generalising …but I don’t include you in that!
I think you seem to have a very fair and balanced view of TT. But I do hope TT doesn’t flop and brings some new people into the community, but I also hope that they let other retailers stock it. I do wonder how successful it will be at attracting new people if they hide it away on their website. Will need either a big marketing push so people know it’s out there, or they’ll need to allow others to sell and to allow people to see it on shelves in stores
I don't get why Arthur is so mad. Hornby is only adding a new scale to their range of scales, I never heared them say it is going to replace 3mm. It is all in Arthurs head ...
Yep, Arthur needs to get over it and move on as TT:120 is with us now.
Thank you for making this video. I cannot see OO scale modellers changing Scale. They have already invested their money. As for the new generation, TT might meet their requirements but, I think if you were to ask the average child in the street I think their main answer would be "What is TT? Is that a new game I can play on my mobile Phone? This could be the end of Hornby unless someone buys them out. They never listen to what the customer is saying. and never own up to their own mistake. Martin. (Thailand)
Hi Martin, thanks for commenting. The point on TT awareness is a concern in light of the lack of retail channel support. The likes of Smyths Toys or Hattons can do a lot for stimulating of brand awareness with the buying public - more than a website and some TH-cam or Tik-Tok videos. Simon doesn't do admission of mistakes!
My father bought me a triang tt gauge train set. I played with it and the coupling rod screws fell out and were lost on the floor immediately.
He went back to the shoip and they chasnged the locomotive. A few weeks later the plastic centre wheel split. It was on 060 tank and two carriages.
Today Triang TT gauge is history.
Hornby Dublo tried two rail. The track was flimsy unlike Hornby Dublo 3 rail and nobody understood the wiring for points. Meccano failed and the Hornby brand was sold to line Bros.
Triang Trains became Triang Hornby.That was in 1964. Lines Bros failed in 1972 because of a new code 100 track and tender drive.
The lesson here is that if the quality is poor Hornby TT120 will go the way of Triang TT.
Thanks for sharing John. As you say, all bets are off if the quality is poor.
I'll be sticking with OO, but I've got nothing against TT:120 in principle. I admire the 'big bang' approach from Hornby with the magnitude of the range announced, but I'm not sure the distribution, marketing or timing is quite right. But then I thought that iPads, vaping and TikTok were terrible ideas destined to fail, so we'll probably all be on TT:120 by 2025. My recent experience of Hornby is that their models aren't as good as other manufacturers, yet they're prices are higher. I would have preferred that Hornby put their investment into innovation and technology to improve model quality and production. Apart from my 2020 range orders (that still haven't materialised), I'm avoiding buying from them and trying to support the likes of Accruscale, Rapido and Dapol who seems to be pushing the hobby forward.
Thanks for that. I'm with you on all your points (apart from iPads which I've always loved). TT has me torn, my head is full of concerns including Hornby's existing 00 range - which I believe has suffered already as a result of their TT investments. I like the scale and it could be that sweetspot between N and 00 that wins people over. The execution is another matter and the promotion/route to market. I'm not sure a single vendor can make this successful going it alone. There is a massive diversity of views in the comments and I think in most cases people are making valid points either way. The first sets are due in Dec so we'll know more when they arrive....
I think that the likes of Accurascale, Cavalex and Rapido etc are showing Hornby up somewhat with far better products at much more sensible prices. Hornby were a Toy company to start with and although they have pulled up their socks up somewhat over the years, the elastic used in their socks is starting to slacken off and their falling back to their Toy roots and Toy quality. I have always been happy with Bachmann products in both OO and N gauge and recently Heljan have caught my eye. I have a Scotsman TT:120 set up for sale currently.
TT is prefect for me in terms of the scale to space ratio. Also I like that I can get it direct. I was never a fan of local model shops.
Having read most comments my impression is that there are a lot more people here taking this initiative positively then the video with just a few people suggests.
If there is a risk (there is, I believe) that is in general for model railway markets, as kids have many other modern hobbies to chose from nowadays.
My follow up video to this parsed all of the comments and grouped them in terms of their sentiment and combined that with the viewer poll. I wouldn't say there was a standout winner and unfortunately there was a level of negativity towards Hornby that scewed the negative sentiment. There were a lot of positive comments for sure and more since I cut the follow up video.
This range really appeals to me, I have limited space and I'm a complete novice. Ideally I'd like to build a 6ft layout and TT120 would allow me to hopefully have a decent sized layout.i must agree though that there needs to be access to the range in model shops etc
Thanks Nigel
I am a total newcomer to the UK modelling scene, and am devouring as much data and general information as possible before commiting to a particular scale. Much of my information is derived from popular sites such as yours and already I have pared my viewing preference to about 3 channels, one of which is yours. I would like to thank you for presenting your content in a calm, temperate and balanced manner. I live on a fixed income so value for money and start up costs are very important to me. Another of my favourite channels devotes considerable time and effort in exposing the exorbitant costs demanded by some British manufacturers (ie Hornby) for poor or inferior products. Your comments on the reasons behind this strategy resonated with me, and may be a major factor when I ultimately decide which scale path to follow
Untill then, thankyou for sharing your experience with us 'new boys' and I look forward to continuing my voyage of discovery with the help of you and a couple of alternative presenters. Mike P-J
Thanks for that and I'm glad you're finding the channel of use. Getting a decent model at a fair price is something close to my heart and it can be challenging at times. I think one of my upcoming videos might be of particular interest so watch this space....
As a 75 years old recently moved into a small 2 bedroom bungalow, TT ie the perfect solution for me. My eyesight and non nimble fingers found that N gauge was to fiddly and small and so reluctantly had to sell up. Having watched the Hornby's model world on TV I was thrilled to see the creation of TT and have ordered a set almost straight away. Meanwhile a baseboard is under construction and some track purchased (to give me a good idea of measurements etc.) The complaints by some don't realise the competion out there and the need to be the first in order to pick up the custom, I'm absolutely thrilled and eagerly await the delivery (summer) of my set.
Thanks for sharing Ian. My Eastern set is arriving next week so we'll see how that turns out.
Went to see Hornby's TT:120 display at the Gaydon model show today.
Looks great! It's just that bit bigger than N but clearly significantly smaller than OO. Early sanple coaches and wagons were very good, with the close coupling looking really nice on the coaches. Correct gauge for scale is a nice side-benefit, too.
I prefer the Peco track, but will certainly leave my pre-orders active with Hornby.
The OO and N folks may not fancy it, but nothing here affects them as those scales will rumble on for many years yet. This is new and won't be everyone's cup of tea; that's quite OK!
For me, it blows N into the weeds, but don't see it affecting OO at all.
I was delighted to see that the coaches had close coupling mechanisms, something that is not universal amongst British models in 00 and N scales but taken for granted from European manufacturers. Now, if they can sort the counterbalance error on the steam loco wheels...
@@marcosborne6540 I gather from the Hornby staff I met at Gaydon that these couplings are the international standard for TT:120. I guess the Chinese factories are set up to use them, and for once a UK company had the sense to adopt the international standard, not come up with some half-arsed version of its own!
The counterbalance issue on the wheels was a human error in the tooling phase, apparently. Was assured someone has been shot as an example to the CAD department, and it will be put right! I'd quite like one of the "wrong" ones as a quirky collector's item - would be interesting to see how many people noticed.
This does look promising. I was never going to N, but this scale does open up an interesting opportunity for a compact layout to build over the winter when my garden O gauge isn't so appealing.
@@chairmakerPete re the couplings, yes I recognised them as the standard used on European stock and was glad to see they’d adopted it. Great news that they’d understood the counterbalance issue and I appreciated that these were not full production models on show. The affirmation that this will be addressed should quieten various detractors comments.
The European stock by the likes of Tillig etc. is rather good. I model N gauge European out of preference but appreciate good British modelling. It’s fantastic to see Hornby adopting good scale standards and innovations in this range.
Go for it. Cross to the dark side and enjoy 😄😄😄
Thanks for sharing that and good to hear the models looked the business in reality.
TT would be a clean sheet - Manufacturers would not be competing with 25 years of decent secondhand (+older) so I can see the attraction from a commercial point of view. I am surprised that Hornby have ignored Sound (DCC running on analog is an option ) in their marketing as this has a power to draw people in (The price argument may have trumped this).
TT 2.5mm is established and has been ticking away in Eastern Europe for decades Piko, Tillig, Arnold and Roco are some of the manufacturers - The scale is nice but hardly mainstream after all these years.
I am glad Hornby are operating a closed shop on TT - For a shop, the pressure to stock more is huge. For example I import some German O Gauge - the models are as brilliant as they are niche (In the UK at least) Just 2 manufacturers (Lenz and KM-1) have announced over 200 Loco models this year (If you count livery variations) They will trickle in over the next 5 years, but if I do not order immediately I will not get the stock. That is a huge stock decision to make. In HO it is more extreme, French manufacturer REE have 1,500 models in this years price list. And I deal with 6 other large manufacturers... So no rush to TT from me Cheers for the films. Chris
Thanks for your comments Chris. I don't envy you with having to order for a 5 year horizon like that and dealing with REEs 1500 models. I can see that stocking a TT range on top of that would less than desirable! You're the first to mention sound. It would have been on my wishlist alright.
I'm target market. Always wanted trains, never had space or money. TT is a little more affordable and a lot smaller. I have preordered the set and have 900£ in wishlist. My son is v excited too. I think that's the point, grow the market, not canabalise.
Thanks for that. Yeah, for greenfield layouts, TT ticks a lot of boxes.
I like the concept and the wide range of models Hornby has announced for TT; however I already have a large amount of HO ( Roco,Piko, Amintiri Feroviare ) and OO (Hornby, Triang, Airfix, Dapol) rolling stock and track, plus I have invested a lot of money into them already, so unfortunately I would not go for the new Hornby TT range
Thanks for commenting Vladimir. 100% understandable.
I began with TT in 1959 and only went to 00 when Triang stopped production. I have tried gauge o but its too big for my space, so I've ordered a TT set. With computer design its easy to modify scales and 3d printing will make a large choice available relatively easily.
Thanks Simon
I’m afraid “Arthur’s” comments are rather childish. a public company like Hornby does not need to take into account every modeler’s opinion. He’s criticizing the decision to go 2.5 mm without knowing the decision making process behind it.
Having moved to a smaller house many years ago and struggled to find space for my OO I can see the benefit in this scale. A lot of people are likely to find this scale ideal as homes are getting smaller. A scale between OO and N might be what many people have been looking for. A GWR set might tempt me.
Hi Paul, I would agree with you. I've always felt N scale was too much of a compromise. If Hornby can deliver good TT:120 models then it could be the answer for people who are space challenged and could even be the difference between someone taking up the hobby or not because they can now accommodate it. Thanks for commenting.
Couldn't agree more. I csn't see new houses getting any bigger, any time soon.
Interesting the clip concentrates on existing modellers, when the launch itself had an eye to developing a market to take the hobby into the future.
You've also got to suspect that if everything in 00 was rosy, Hornby wouldn't have gone to such lengths in the first place.
Simon Kohler killed it when they went after Heljan, no other manufacturer is going to support TT-120.
@@ironfbody It does not matter who was actually at fault, Hornby will get the blame because of their track record.
Thanks for sharing. I was surprised Heljan backed down so quickly. I'm not pleased with Heljan right now for coming out with duplicate locos we already have enough of - Class 47s and 57s are a case in point. What about taking on the HSTs or Class 800s and give Hornby something different to think about!
Britain needs a scale with correct rail gauge, but this choice baffles me. There are so many old TT models around, surely the right choice was 3mm on 14mm track? Bring lots of old stuff on board, with a wheel change - eg a market for new chassis for old models, meaning a much wider range of models on day one.
Oh, and also: seriously concerned by Hornby's web site only policy. MAYBE for a short time while they iron out bugs, but if they think they can cut out hobby shops etc for good, that is unprincipled and, for me, is a reason to stop buying Hornby altogether- including OO.
Hi, thanks for commenting. I was expecting to see more comments in support of 3mm adoption given there is a community already in place. You make an interesting point re. taking a direct sales model initially - "to iron out the bugs". They need to trial the first models with some respected modelers who will give them a thorough shakedown before inflicting them on the general public. I hope they are doing this.
I'm coming up to retirement age and the last Train set I built was around 20 years ago for my kids, OO with Thomas and Percy etc.
The spare room I used is now my office and will be used once again for the new Train set but this time in TT120. I thought about N gauge and really wanted to go that way but always in the back of my mind thinking it was too small. I have pre ordered several Hornby TT items and will be buying the Peco track to suit once the Hornby items arrive.
In my eyes this is a perfect scale. Reading the comments on here it also seems that most other people are thinking the same and they are the Customer. Also with the Hornby Bluetooth control system it seems Hornby have a new vision in comparison to the others?
Maybe they should put Peco track in the Sets and concentrate on the actual models?👍😎
Thanks for that and best of luck with your new TT layout. I don't think too many people would complain if Hornby followed your suggestion!
I might have gone for TT:120 a few years back when my OO collection was much smaller, but it's not really worth it for me now, I do like compact micro layouts, I'm just too invested in OO at this point to switch, the lack of competition throwing in their hats and aggressive get it through us direct or nothing is alarming to say the least.
Thanks for sharing Richard. I think it's the same for a lot of other folks who are too heavily invested in a different scale to make the move now.
Mainly opinions in this video, the future will tell.
Yeah, and plenty more in the comments. Waiting for my Eastern Set to put some reality around it for myself.
Bad luck if you live in Australia because you can’t join the TT club or buy TT products online because unlike other markets TT will be sold through a local distributor in Australia. Shame on you Hornby, this has changed my mind on TT.
They're going to have to get there eventually, but it's disappointing if you want to adopt any time soon. Thanks for commenting.
Digital voice-overs should be mentioned as such.... regardless, I think there is room for another scale...!
I am very interested in TT120 and have pre-ordered the two starter sets and may order more once I map out a design. I look forward to seeing the scale enter into the US market.
Thanks for commenting Ivan.
This video seems unduly biased against TT:120. The vast majority of comments I have seen are positive about the new scale. Personally I would have loved to see the old TT sized models running on 14.2mm track (the old Triang TT being the most ascetically pleasing size to view in my opinion), but realisticly that was never going to happen. I will wait and see what their class 47 looks like before I decide whether to venture into any modelling in this scale. Hornby have said that the models may be available via retailers in the future, but I guess that will mean adding their cut on top of the existing prices, something I'm guessing Hornby wanted to avoid in the launch, keeping it as cheap as possible.
I don't have a particular issue with TT:120 as a scale and state this in the video. It could be an optimum scale for new adopters or people downsizing. I have concerns in not having at least one other manufacturer to help push it as a standard for UK models, accelerate the delivery of a broader range and also to help keep Hornby honest. Also, not having the push you would get from the retail channels for a new product like this could inhibit take up. Having a better margin on product that isn't selling isn't a recipe for success. Hornby should know their business better than the rest of us so I hope they've fully considered all the consequences for their approach. Thanks for commenting.
Having built oo & n gauge layouts was just about to start a new n-gauge layout when Hornby announced TT 120. I decided to get the 2 starter train sets along with extra track to test the waters but I not worried about TT taking off as Hornby have a minimum 5 year commitment alongside Gaugemaster & Peco who are doing their thing .Also Arthur should know that Hornby's choice is compatible with U.S & European TT models.
I was told guagemaster, dapol and heljan had all pulled out of uk tt
What US TT models you thinking of getting?
@@rollergrill Just heljan pulled out for no good reason, as far as I know only gaugemaster & peco are making tt 120 stuff , I heard nothing about dapol .
Thanks for commenting Jason. I think for folks who are either dabbling or building a second layout to their main one, the longevity issue is less of a factor for sure. I've ordered a set myself out of curiosity. If you were intending to pump in £3K-£5K it would be a different story of course and I'd certainly want another UK manufacturer onboard.
Hornby are hitting the market from both ends. They are targeting the entry level consumer (family / kids) with something that can be stored under the bed or in a plastic container for the family to use on the dining room table. On the other end, you have older folks who cannot easily make it up to the loft anymore, or have moved into apartments. N gauge is a bit fiddly for seniors. TT:120 offers the proper scaling too, so less effort for the same look. Hornby have been pricing up OO, probably less about funding and more about competitively placing OO. As for selling direct from Hornby, they can keep the pricing low without having to offer the 40-50% wholesale discounts. It also has the added benefit that any new customers they bring will be kept in the dark about other scales and other manufacturers. There are only so many Flying Scotsman and HSTs they can sell in OO. It will be interesting to see how Bachmann and others react in 2023.
Yeah, sounds like Keegan and William from the video. Hornby do tend to own the entry level so they will have a better ability to lock new entrants into their universe as you say. Over pricing their 00 scale will make their TT range look a lot more cost effective for sure. It will be interesting to see the competitors response for sure. Thanks for sharing.
It may be strange to say, but Hornby have just released a gauge that appears to be waining on the continent. Before the Covid epademic, I travelled to Germany at least twice a year. New leaflets from the manufacturers such as Faller, Kibri & Vollmer alwas seem to have some TT gauge models listed. Today, there appears to be nothing. Unless someone steps in to provide the back-up for the scale, it will be very hard to market. Having spend a lot of time and money on producing the scale, this could be the make or break for the company.
Interesting point. The depth of European support for TT is touted by some though how many people would bring in European TT models is open to question. I can see lots of people tapping into buildings etc. from the likes of Kibri and Vollmer alright - assuming they're still available. Thanks for posting.
Being a TT scale modeller in Hungary for 40 plus years, I have to admit that TT was close to disappear in the early ‘90s -after the German unification and the economic downturn.
However after 2000 the scale not only revived, but grew rapidly - mainly as a result of TILLIG production. Some other smaller companies entered the market soon, while ROCO has twice entered and abandoned it. However PIKO is also active. Still not comparable to H0.
For Germans primarily there is a wide variety of rolling stock for all Era. Czech Republic, Poland and Slovakia is also active.
I am not really aware of anything major in the US.
@@raffica26 Thanks for that. Yes, Tillig seem to be the main player at the moment with a pretty good range and good value.
I have been working on 00 for years but now moving to TT 120 show display. Fitting better in my van
The TT range is building out now and also available from Rails so your timing is good.
As a 3mm modeller im interested in the new product and for the diesel era a great challenge. building a model of Acton Wells in this scale to test it out.
I am glad that Hornby is getting into TT. I am currently modelling HO. For years I was hoping that some manufacturer would model British models in HO. I think British models deserve the ability to run with other European trains. They are fantastic. With TT we now have that opportunity. OO was far to big to mix with HO. Now I can do just that. I am hoping that Hornby will expand the range of TT to Rivarossi, and Jouef. TT is doing quite well in Eastern Europe. Finally we can have a diverse group of model trains from different countries. British trains have a unique style and beauty, and deserve the opportunity to run a long side of other famous trains. N is too small for me. Cheers!
Thanks for that. Having gone through all the comments last night, you are not alone in calling out the desire to run these models together be it European or North American. Would you look to transition away from H0 altogether once TT is more established? I'm wondering if there is a consequence for H0 modelling in the UK as a result of this?
@@EuviRail
Many years ago, when Triang had TT gauge, I was seriously considering going to TT from OO. I had an extensive layout of Triang, but I chose to go with HO, when Triang abandoned TT. I switched to HO, because there was a wider variety of items available ie American, and European, and with better detailing. I do still have a few Hornby OO items, but sadly, they just don’t looking right running next to my extensive HO collection. I will be selling off my HO collection in the near future, and TT, at my age, just makes sense. If you look at Hornby’s international catalogue, Arnold, a Hornby company, is already producing a very limited amount of TT. Arnold quality is quite good, so I am expecting something good to come out of this. I am anxious to see the final product. I’m guessing that Hornby is looking to broaden the market for British trains; and so they should, as British trains are fantastic. Cheers!
@@jetbee1106 Thanks for that. The Arnold stuff looks pretty good detail wise but it does look a bit pricey. I'm not sure how it compares to what's available in Europe? In general, OO and HO locos and rolling stock don't look right together for sure - there are exceptions of course. I have a lot of HO buildings on the layout and they work fine so long as you keep them a distance from your 00 trains. If Hornby can sell UK TT models in Europe and the US then that is net new business for them so very likely to be part of the business case. Thanks again for sharing your model railway journey.
I think TT (1:120) is a great scale. Finally, we have a scale and gauge that match for British railway modelling. This means we can use products from overseas manufacturers (whether buildings, people, rolling stock or whatever) on a British layout without them looking too small. I wonder if there might be a long game for Hornby to introduce more TT in its other - continental - brands. It's a scale that always remained moderately popular in Germany (particularly the former DDR), so there is market for them there. Though it's still niche compared to HO.
3mm scale has - in my view - always been a very niche scale, used by people who had a TT train set in the 1960s, and to me it made little sense. For 3mm, so much has to be scratch built, so why not build it to the "correct" scale? EM/P4 is similarly niche to 3mm, but at least is correcting the OO compromise. I've never modelled British outline, as I couldn't live with the narrow gauge, and regauging all rolling stock is not something I'd want to get into: it is easier (and for a non-xenophobic Englishman really interesting) to model European prototypes.
I wonder what all the critics of TT120 would have said if Hornby had instead decided to introduce EM gauged versions of its 1:76 offerings?
But it does need more than Hornby and Peco on board, and Hornby need to sell it through model shops.
In the past, when there were simply more model shops, many sold OO, HO, N alongside other scales for e.g. military modelling. Even Beatties sold HO, OO and N. It wasn't stocking three scales/gauges that led to the closure of so many model shops in the 90s and 00s. It was that there were fewer people doing railway modelling, and particularly fewer young people starting the hobby.
Thanks Andrew. I'm currently consolidating the feedback and the lack of a second manufacturer and retail support are coming though as genuine concerns. Having a 2nd manufacturer also allows the Hornby factor to be taken out to a large extent which is another major negative that I'm seeing. More anon.
The new tt120 scale is a massive mistake on hornbys part. I really don't see it catching on personally if I was going to a smaller scale I would choose N gauge as it's better supported.
Thanks Gordon. I'm just collating all the feedback and it seems TT has traction with folks who aren't happy with N which is fair enough. There's no debate on the space front for sure - it's more a question of TT giving folks enough leeway and that's the attraction. TT still needs to deliver with quality if it is to be considered a runner at all.
Been waiting for your take on this...
Good to see the usual gang back
Yeah, it's been like a monkey on my back since the Hornby announcement.
@@EuviRail probably the biggest issue is the fuzzy idea of an international market. Theres basically hornby, a wagon from peco, and thats it. Otherwise its all European prototype, yet they didn't mention this while pumping up an American market in a way to suggest there is an american prototype range out there, which there is really not. You can get some box car kits not much else. This whole international market business is pretty much predicated on selling it to the niche community of german tt modellers who probably arent interested en masse
@@EuviRail you can also add in the silly costs of doing business with the EU as a British company. If you main and biggest TT:120 market is Europe, it doesn't make much sense at all to offer british TT:120 and use the international market as a reason for having done it. The people you're already asking to take a leap into foreign models are also asked to take a leap into dealing with huge import delays and additional costs that I don't see hornby being keen on shouldering.
This is possibly already an issue for them in the office with the european brands they own and trying to negotiate it all to come up with a good profit so this just seems even more bizarre.
I was very interested initially, however, I live in Australia, which means I'd be at the mercy of the AUD/GPB exchange rate for anything I want to buy for TT120. Without model shop support, I think Hornby have made a grave mistake.
Thanks Richard. Agree on the model shop front. They could have really helped push TT for Hornby. A high margin product with poor adoption doesn't make sense at the end of the day.
You've got this badly wrong in my view. As an existing OO and N gauge modeller I'm very interested in TT 120 and have already pre ordered a lot of kit.
Please lose the music. It is really distracting.
Hi Robert, it definitely comes down to the level of investment people have in their existing scale and you'll see that in the comments on here. If someone has £5K - £10K+ invested in a given scale and 10+ years in work on the layout, moving scale is a massive decision never mind moving to a new scale with limited support. Investing in multiple scales isn't an option for most people to be fair though there are some who do it so in that case TT:120 is definitely worth a shot. Thanks for your comments.
Good video analysis. Seems a vanity project that's doomed before it starts. It will detract investment in keeping Hornby's own 00 product line refreshed with higher spec models in the future leaving the door wide open for Accurascale, Bachmann and Heljan, Betamax seems a good analogy. Hornby are going to hurt their own business and leave the door wide open for competitive 00 products. N is too well established, Hornby have missed the boat. Too much fragmentation. HO track with 00 scale models is something we've all got used to for the past 60 years. Personally I'm heavily invested in 00 so not going to risk investing in TT due to the likely obsolescence within a short time frame. Hornby perhaps irrationally feel at war with some of their own biggest retailers who do their own competitive commissions from time to time, but killing the goose that lays the golden egg comes to mind. Hope it doesn't bank rust Hornby. The company may fail but the brand name will never die and somebody may snap it up for a song if the current company fails, so there will always be a Hornby even if ultimately owned by bachmann's parent or Accurascale.
Thanks for that. Yeah, it wouldn't encourage you to invest in Hornby 00 models goings forward. I always feel it's not good when a manufacturer has an unhealthy relationship with retailers. If you don't look after them, those retailers will go elsewhere and will effectively be fueling your competition. It will be interesting to see how this all develops. As I mentioned in the video, I hope Hornby are prudent enough to reverse on certain decisions if that is required rather than push through regardless to avoid losing face and ultimately paying a heavy price financially.
I have had to give the hobby up due to the price of the hornby items a shame dont think we need another scale think hornby would be better to build locomotive with less detail like old hornby this would make the hobby more affordable to people
Affordability has become a real issue for people entering this hobby. I am a believer that there is plenty of room in the hobby for models with decent motors, decent liveries and modest levels of detail at affordable prices. Hornby's Railroad diesels are step down from this though some of their Railroad steams locos were closer to the mark prior to the last round of price increases. Thanks for your comment.
Looks more appealing than N guage. I can defiently see this scale having fans. Selling directly at first may seem like they are locking out retailers but I think it is more about balancing stock levels vs investment, it's a reasonable step to protect the company andf guage demand over time. Over time they may exoand to retailers. it also avoid confusion for the huge customer base for existing product and retailers dont need to reduce shelve space for existing product.
Hi Freya, thanks for commenting. Your point did come out in the follow up video based from others who had mentioned it like yourself. There definitely seems to be interest in UK TT models being sold in other geographies and of course UK modelers can take in European and North American TT models.
Views on this has been made up, use a photo, fake Voices obviously have a hatred towards Hornby I’ve been modeling in OO for years I’m going to start modeling in TT 120
I'm looking alot at TT120 as a very good compromise between OO and N gauge but I won't make any purchases until more trains are released and hopefully more manufactures will be on board to support it (I'm looking at you Murphy rail)
It's going to be a bit of a wait and see I guess by the others. Thanks for commenting.
As a American who typically models HO, I got into TT for modeling 42” gauge equipment used in Newfoundland, i have some agreement of needing the hornby equipment as peco’s flex track could be annoying and there is a need for segments and wide curves for running the larger equipment. In addition i see use in the 6 axel diesels and atleast 2 of the 4-6-2’s for making specific locomotives used on the line.
As for regular TT, i see it as another parts source, unfortunately my track currently held is berliner (curves are so tight only the trolleys can make it around) thus leaving it up to what i can find. Berliners are good but parts are scarse, following it is the HP Products which the cars are great (all kits tho) the locos have there quirks but most now are well over 60 years of age, parts have to be custom made.
Thanks for sharing another perspective on this. Hornby's introduction will certainly enhance the broader TT space.
Great commentary and observations as always unbiased and fair. As for me I will stick to 00 and would N gauge as an alternative if I wanted to change. Even if it was the best thing I still would as with the opinion of others not because of Hornby and what they are doing to the industry and the retailers and I so hope that all the other Manufacturers especially with the great models that have come out this year (not from Hornby) will eventually put Hornby firmly back in its box and that the new scale becomes a harsh lesson to Hornby on how not to do business. We will loose our independent retailers and the choices and value they bring which I am sure no of us want to happen. Tim
Thanks Tim. There can be no doubt that Hornby feels the walls closing in for 00 gauge hence breaking into TT looks attractive to them.
They certainly take some teaching.
I’ve only been back to the hobby for about 5 years. I’m pretty astonished at what Hornby dishes out to its retailers, also it’s customers and the attitude to it’s competitors.
I’ve seen them swerve left to Steam Punk, right to Harry Potter. Attempt to print money with Coca Cola while simultaneously gifting Thomas The Tank Engine to their competitor. Saying retailers shouldn’t manufacture, while manufacturing and retailing???
The “kidz” they employ on their overly corporate looking exhibition stand are about as far away from modelling as you could get.
The PR for TT120 was ridiculous. “People in starter homes”. “ bringing in younger modellers “. What?
What sub 25 year old is buying a house? And how likely is he to be building physical models? I’ve never heard such patronising rubbish.
My Grandad lived all his life in a terraced house in B’ham. He comfortably ran a boarded OO gauge layout.
I saw a fair amount of OO shunting layouts at Warley and Milton Keynes. What house won’t they fit in?
As an O gauge kit builder but with insufficient room for a 7mm layout, I like TT120 as it doesn't have the glaring mismatch between track and loco body scales that OO has. For a small layout, TT120 sounds ideal.
Given their fairly massive investment in TT120 tooling, I can understand why Hornby have sensibly both maximised their income by direct selling as well as encouraged discounted sales via the TT120 club. With Dapol, Heljan and Bachmann all competing on the 00 side, it makes sense to diversify and encourage those who have never been previously involved in model railways to look at models designed for the smaller house.
I model in 'OO12' - 3 foot narrow gauge, using 12 mm gauge Peco track. On one hand (provided I can see inside the loco body before buying) the class O8 'Gronk' could be useful - an outside framed, outside crank 0-6-0 mechanism has a lot of conversion potential for classic narrow gauge steam. But as for changing from OO, no thanks, I'll stick with the scale I have, due to the reasonably ready availability of parts I can't make for myself. My local rtr train shop, having fallen out with Hornby, will not be stocking Peco track - too little demand. OK - so Hornby wish to sell direct from the factory, undercutting local shops? That's their prerogative. BUT they don't sell all the materials, paints, wood, solder etc on which I depend, and which even a TT120 modeller will need - and if in the process they drive real local model shops out of business, we're sunk.
The old Triang TT (1/100th or 3 mm per foot) was at the time an essential compromise - the age old problem of getting the then available smallest motors into British outline models. Our loading gauge is smaller than that of either European or American railways; we've always had to compromise between exact scale and practicality. Now they can use the same scale as the rest of the world do - and hope that overseas sales will help support their ideas. We need to wait and see - and wish them well.
Good points. Thanks John
Arthur....serious over-reaction, really rather sad actually.
I have yet to build a layout and live in a flat. Bachmann next quarter announcements are due, If there’s more support in addition to Hornby then I’m all in favour of it and I’ll preorder everything. Otherwise I’m going to divert to N.
Thanks for sharing Matt. Sounds like a prudent strategy to me. Let's see what comes from Bachmann.
The Sony comment hits the nail, I see it as Hornby internet only as cost to the model world. Both Bachmann have knocked retailers on the head for discounting or producing models which they are frightened off! As for Arthur his gauge is out of scale, die hard stick in the mud was Hornby going to sell to him anyway? Just hope Hornby DO NOT OVER PRICE THEMSELVES to make this scale work, also with PECO making TT track are they producing this for Hornby or is it the clumsy Hornby scaled down track?
Thanks Vinny. The pricing concerns me alright as does the Hornby track. We shall see .....
Why are people so negative? Sometimes you have to take a risk, and this is very brave of Hornby. Good luck for trying. I would definitely consider it if starting afresh.... exactly the market Hornby is going for. As a side issue idiots that say things like 'they will never buy Hornby again' are probably doing Hornby a favour. No business needs such ridiculous negativity form their customers.
Hornby have also said they are selling direct at the moment to keep prices low and manage their marketing approach responding rapidly as required. When taking such a risk this makes perfect sense.
It should also be noted that TT has not done European markets any harm at all, so that is also nonsense.
Thanks for your comments. There is definitely a Hornby factor here which is unfortunate. If we were discussing a Bachmann TT:120 launch I wouldn't expect to see the same responses. I've just finished an analysis of the poll results and comments for a follow up video. This should help add some clarity and take out some of the negative emotion. I look forward to when we can move the discussion on to talking about actual models we have in our hands. Thanks again.
@@EuviRail Maybe Hornby should change their name to Marmite, you either love it or hate it :)
@@eisenbau LOL 🤣🤣
Here in the states I haven't really started collecting domestic models because I have such a wide range of interests, including UK railways. I am also always torn between HO and N scale trains, HO offers more variety but N scale fits within the limited space I have. I would go all in with TT120 if Hornby USA started producing North American prototypes, then I could collect both my favorite UK and US models and they would be able to operate side by side without the differences you get with HO/OO and N scale and it would fit within the space I have.
Many thanks for your comments. This correlates with other comments I have seen on this topic so I hope you get the opportunity to get hold of these models on your side of the Atlantic in the not too distant future.
May I comment as an ex-modeller? My first model railway when I was a child was a Triang TT - Tintagel Castle, some coaches and wagons - all put together on a modestly sized board by the local shop my father bought it from. The TT vanished and the thing just got discarded. I revisited railways in the early 80s, with 00, and it lasted until a change of house meant that was that. I didn't realise the issue with dealers and Hornby, but over the years, so many things I have bought into have faded away and changed - Phillips VCRs, then beta, VHS, H-8 and S-VHS, then of course DVD and Blu-ray. Why are trains different? N was too small, and 00 perhaps just a little too big. The strange track to scale size error didn't;t bother me. TT:120 seems a hole in the market. The 3mm old scale I had assumed was long gone. I think all the video comments just seemed unbalanced. Anything that encourages a hobby to newcomers can't be bad, can it? The people complaining want no change - that is rarely how hobbies work nowadays? If I invested in trains again, from scratch, I think TT:120 could actually work for me? PS I worked for video dealers and spares support from Sony, Toshiba and Sanyo was extremely good. It failed because of numbers. Radio rentals and others ONLY rented VHS, the Baird clone of the Ferguson/JVC
Thanks for that. Could see your ancestry alright from the comments - I've lived through and participated in all of your examples (apart from Triang TT)!
I model in N scale and I am very happy with the models from Kato, Farish, Fleischmann, Minitrix and Dapol. There is some super detailed N scale models I have and I would recommend checking out the Dapol Class 50 in N scale. Its better for detail than the OO gauge Hornby example because non opening doors on the Dapol Class 50 removes those crude gaps and its about half the price of the Hornby version that is dated in tooling. After losing all respect for Hornby and them pushing/pricing me out of OO gauge. I really don't care what happens to Hornby and perhaps they should have improved their OO gauge models on quality. I am happy to buy N scale and if you wanted to try out N scale Eugene, Kato and Gaugemaster have done a Class 800/0 starter set which is reasonably priced. I am glad to be in the N scale band and Hornby can go blow for all I can. I am not happy with Hornby and I don't forgive easily either. Its all £££ as far as they care.
All the best
Ash.
One scale that I'm actually surprised never was used. Or took hold if it was would be 1/100. To me it seems as though that would have been a very logical "metric" scale size.
3mm is effectively 1/100 and I agree with you in terms of it's relatively low level of traction. I suspect the level of European TT:120 adoption was one of the deciding factors and we can only speculate on the others. The 3mm community are effectively in no mans land now as existing 3mm providers will look to follow the money.
TT120. For people like me. I had as a child a 6' × 4' board. Now as I am older and in a small flat this new range is very appealing. It is something I set up on my tabletop. I am not a modeler. But would to play with my grandkids. Then when finished pack it away.
Thanks for your comments Steven and I think a key point is that for the usage you are looking for, whether TT succeeds or not in the long term isn't really relevant. Will it do what you need it to do for the next few years and is it reasonably priced is what's important. A lot of heavily invested modelers including myself tend to be driven by the long haul which is understandable if that's your end of the market.
I applaud Hornby introducing TT in 1:120 scale. It’s correct to international standards and is going to be supported well.
However I remain depressed that few seem to be aware that this scale is alive and thriving in Europe, well supported in terms of rolling stock and accessories manufacture. It is a great scale, well worth looking at as an alternative. I remain also somewhat bemused at the luddite attitude expressed by so many, somewhat similar to the attitude towards DCC which has seen late adoption in the UK compared to European and American modellers.
Its funny how that works, tho we shan’t forget that the same year BR ended mainline steam, many railroads and railways had for well over a decade been diesel or electrified. There is a deep societal mentality that is left unbroken.
Though it would be a different world if hornby got HO scale down pat early on, and had done the same with TT back in its early days, who knows just how different things would be.
Thanks for commenting Marc. I'll be the first to admit I wasn't really aware of TT adoption in Europe until the Hornby announcement. As I've only been pursuing UK and Irish models meant I had not reason to look at it. The list of European manufacturers is significant though in many cases a given manufacturer is only supporting a particular part of Europe (which is understandable). I think a lot of people would still like to see another UK manufacturer for multiple reasons. The import/export of models isn't what it was pre-Brexit so unless UK model shops are stocking European items it's going to me more costly for people to purchase 2nd hand off eBay for example. I know, I live in Ireland.
I'm not sure why DCC took so long to roll out in the UK. The manufacturers didn't help.
@@EuviRail Yes, it would be great to see other British outline manufacturers get on board with TT120. Continental Modeller covers the European scene and there have been a few TT layouts in there over the years. As for DCC I guess you might be right. I got back into the hobby around 20 years ago and adopted DCC within a year. Never looked back. German outline models from Fleischmann and Trix were available ready chipped or with six pin decoder sockets so converting was easy. Also the German manufacturers have some great DCC control kit by ESU (ECOS) and Roco (Z21). I have used both and both are superb. I struggle to understand why anyone would use other kit given the versatility of these two products but each to their own. I prefer a one stop solution.
Hi Guys
Just another thought as going to start in the hobby next year when we settle into a new home, I'm going to have to go down the budget side of things and for me that means start with some second-hand loco's and rolling stock so going down the road of TT there will be nothing there for the second-hand market which for me narrows what I can get started with so sorry hornby but not for me
Cheers Mark
Absolutely Mark. I should have brought that point up in the video. This is the way I got back into the hobby. A lot of good points raised in the comments and there is also the poll so a follow up is warranted.
I think its a superb and bold decision by Hornby and long overdue. I would love a layout but I am struggling for space for all my OO gauge models and lack any proper ability to create a layout. I saw a TT layout at a recent exhibition and always felt it would be an ideal gauge to accommodate in my space. N gauge is too small and fiddler, and never convincing enough detail wise. Well done Hornby its the scale I've bee waiting for.
Oh the fake Pakistani shop owner was a joke and unconvincing in the video.
Thanks for sharing. To be honest I wouldn't be happy with N scale myself and see TT:120 as potentially an optimal scale and definitely appealing for those who haven't yet taken the plunge on a major layout investment. The concerns of quality of execution, manufacturer and retail channel support are still there. Railway modelling needs something like this to help develop the hobby so I hope each of these gets addressed in the coming months. Looking forward to seeing the first set in December and we'll go from there.
Mirai will be highly insulted. She's supposed to be Indian!
Was the TT layout you saw at a recent exhibition TT:120? I very much doubt it, more likely it was TT:100 which is 3mm to the foot, a totally different scale which many people are confusing it with.
I’ve wanted this for years - as I head towards state pension age I’ll be taking a close look. I’d like to see a BR diesel multiple unit available. That would really help keeping it all cosy and realistic in the smaller space.
100%. Thanks for commenting.
I'm sold on it. already ordered some items
As some one who was looking at getting in to modelling, i was initially looking at 00 gauge, now that tt120 has come out, i am thinking i could have quite a bit more in the amount of space i will have available to me. The only thing is product range is limited at the moment so i will probably sit back and see what happens. N gauge is another option but for me its a little to small, i am a little clumsy and dont want something so small that i cant see a lot of detail. I certainly dont wish to offended anyone who has invested into 00 or N gauge but i do wonder why people are so triggered by the introduction of another gauge, surely there is room for all three, had i a room i could take over then 00 would be my choice as i dont have a spare room then tt120 is looking more attractive to me and there must be lots of people in my position who want to get into this but dont have room and who dont want N gauge as its just too small.
Thanks for sharing. I can see a lot of people in the same boat as yourself. TT120 could be a sweet spot for a lot of modelers.
I feel that my concerns have already been said by other commenters and don’t need repeating: lack of widespread scale support, the availability of N gauge, current economic pressure on households, lack of involvement with our retailers. I have been a OO gauge modeller all my life and see no reason why I should change. Hornby, you have set yourselves up for a big fall; it will be a sad day should your name be added to other names consigned to history. Alan 10:58
I'll be checking out the Eastern set in the New Year. Going it alone on a new scale like this is a massive endeavor and a massive risk. I hope for their sakes they've done their homework. Many Thanks for commenting.
I've joined Hornby TT Club and will purchase a set in the new year
Thanks for sharing Gary. As I've mentioned I'll be looking at the Eastern set whenever it drops in the new year.
I think a big problem for TT120 will be the fact that there is no cheap 2nd hand market , everything you need -loco's rolling stock, track and buildings will need to be bought brand new for full RRP, yeah good luck with that at hornby prices , if i want to model Midland region in mid sixties then how long do i have to wait for a royal scot to become available?, how long for a class 25? , i think TT120 is a tough sell and hornby are further limiting reach of the range by not selling via retailers , TT120 is the modern version of hornby's live steam ....
A few folks making the same point re. the lack of 2nd hand models which is an obstacle for any new scale, and building a full new range is going to time which is why more manufacturers are needed to instill buyer confidence and get them to hang in there. It's hard to go it alone (per live steam!) Thanks for commenting.
I am a 00 modeller at the moment with plans to build a large layout in my 20ft shed. I will however build myself a TT120 layout for use indoors as it requires less space. I think if successful Hornby will set up a dealer network for the scale, but they have to start somewhere, on-line only for a few years will help. My biggest concern is that production of the new scale will detract from production of 00 in China as I suspect that priority will now be given to TT120.
Thanks for your comments. Would share your concern. Unless the factories in China are increasing capacity to compensate then there will have to be an impact somewhere.
I am a 3mn TT modeller but I do own and run quite a few continental TT locos and stock on my TT layout, the new range from Hornby,hell yes about time,I have pre ordered quite a few items and can't wait for them to be released. As for my 3mm layout and large collection of stock,that's going no where ,the 2 can happily live side by side on my layout.
TT:120 is a solution looking for a problem. Hornby's arguments for this scale all come down to portability, but this doesn't solve the most obvious problem which is getting a broader demographic interested in models in the first place. Size doesn't matter, because assembling a TT:120 track is no less fiddly than 00 - and most customers would still prefer to have a 'fixed' setup (which goes against Simon's archaic idea of Little Johnny pulling set out from under his bed).
Hornby needs to realise that you don't need to have a working railway to enjoy these trains, they can be used as display pieces. Plus, a child coming from Playtrains has already experienced a larger gauge, so why would they go down to smaller one?
I have no quarrel with the TT:120 scale, but I'm seriously mystified as to Hornby's approach to their marketing. It's so poorly thought out.
Thanks Thomas. The discontinuity versus Playtrains is a very valid point I missed and I'm with you on the need to broaden the demographic if the hobby is to survive at it's current level in the longer term. Jury is out here I think.
@@EuviRail Thanks, keep up the good work.
The arguments don't all come down to portability.
There's a nice 25% increase in model size over N which makes a less toy-like appearance possible.
The direct selling model gives opportunities for lower pricing (sorry comedy Pakistani model shop owner - you can't make money off this).
If Hornby adopts Bluetooth battery DCC, the target audience (youth) will be very receptive.
This isn't for the existing (old) hobbyists as much as for a new breed of enthusiast. Though as an old got myself, "I'm in".
1/120 ist nicht umsonst als Modelleisenbahn für den Tisch bezeichnet worden.
Sie passt im Grunde in jede Wohnung.
Einfach mal bei TH-cam reinschauen. In Deutschland gibt es viele TT- Bahner. Die aus den Vorteilen gelernt haben.
Das der Maßstab keinen Unterschied macht sollte doch besonders einem OO Bahner gegenteilig klar sein. Natürlich macht es einen Unterschied.
For me TT120 is irrelevant after decades of OO. OO is very well served, and I could survive without Hornby. The only reason for Hornby doing this is that they think a monopoly in a small pie might be better than a small slice of the big pie in which they are steadily being out competed. Don't mind if TT120 succeeds or fails.
Thanks Alan. Unfortunately the monopoly piece is probably a big part of this which isn't healthy.
@@EuviRail I agree with you on Hornby trying to weasel more from the pie or hoarding a new pie. look at what they have been trying recently. the missing Lion after Hornby tried announing making their own Titfield thunderbolt set. with out license and they where quickly shot down. flooding the market with generic 2 axle coaches after Hattons Genesis coach program started moving.
it will probaly abandoned by hornby as soon as sales fall due to lack of intrest bit time will tell :)
Im new to the Hobby and im very interested, for someone with limited space and eyesight, this seems perfect. Im looking forward to buying my 1st set and beginning my journey.
Thanks for commenting Andrew and welcome to the hobby. TT:120 is probably an ideal option for you and as it matures even more so.
I m German TT Modelltrain Player thanks for the new British Modell in TT Scale. I m happy.
I have put in an order. Great size for my limited space
Hi Graeme, you sound like a target customer for this. Thanks for sharing.
That Arthur chap seems a bit peeved lol
LOL. I think it's useful to have a cranky contrarian in debates like this and Arthur probably gets the best one liners of all the protagonists!
Finally the UK is catching up with our european cousins who already support and produce a large range of models in the TT:120 scale. It provides a balance between space and detail.
If they have done their research correctly they will be able to enter a new market in Europe while having the benefit of creating a new market in the UK.
IMO existing modellers are not the market for this product. The HO/OO market is becoming increasing full of to many manufactures produing to many of the same model with different results. I think Hornby for once have done a sensible thing here…Hats off and TT scale once model looks extremely impressive.
but i could be wrong and likely am lol
Yeah, the European angle could be very important and work well for them in both directions. Yeah, its primarily a product for new entrants, people returning to the hobby or those with only modest investments in other scales. The quality, fidelity and performance of the first TT:120 models Hornby deliver is going to be so important. I hope they don't cut any corners to just get "something" out there quickly. Personally, I'm hugely invested in 00 but I would be curious to put one of the TT:120 sets through it's paces. Thanks for commenting.
@@EuviRail Could not agree more with your comments. If Hornby have quality issues with the 1st batch of locos / rolling stock etc then I suspect it will be good effort but no thanks. If you are already invested in any other scale then unless you have lots of space then it would not be the product for you.....likely wrong though lol.
I think it is perfect for new people to the hobby and especially young children. I remember as a child having N which was really fiddly but could run massive trains and HO which even though looked a lot better....but space was my issue. In recent years I ended up modeling in Lego of all things. Now we have the ability to have sound decoders.....Lego trains with sound.....different level lol.
In Europe the models produced are brilliant and the detail is second to non and you have full support from all the main manufacturers. I recently got back into 00 scale because I wanted a HST and at the time Hornby had not released the TT range. It is a real shame as all my favorite trains expect the HST was available in the TT scale
Keep up the great work, I do enjoy the channel.
TT120 is going to be a winner amongst new modelers, the houses are getting smaller, so a smaller scale is quite smart...
It seems to be gaining traction alright and the set I tested a few months after this video was decent where it counted. Definitely a decision point for new entrants to the hobby and someone who may be downsizing.
As a 3mm modeller most of my life (I am nearly 70), I just ask one question - why? 3mm scale already exists so why did Peco and Hornby decide on another scale and not support the 3mm community which is already there? Total insanity in my humble opinion.
I've been asking the same question. I guess the main argument has been alignment with the large range of European TT models. 3mm would have had an existing base of consumers and suppliers in the UK. To be honest, I only got visibility to the scope of the 3mm world when researching for this video. I fear I'm not alone which is why it isn't getting the level of support here I thought it might do. Thanks for commenting.
I have mixed thoughts on this new range. Whilst I totally understand the benefits of it taking up less space, I think it's yet another example of Hornby trying to create a monopoly (that theory is strengthened having learnt about Heljan cancelling their TT:120 range, and the fact that Hornby is keeping theirs exclusive to their website).
I think many are feeling the same. If there was another manufacturer and they were selling through retailers I think people would be feel happier about it. Thanks for commenting.
Heljan had absolutely nothing though, they only had an announcement that said “we’re going to do it”
And on the issue of retailers, Hornby themselves have said it’ll be website exclusive to begin with, and once the range picks up traction it’ll be made available for retailers.
Do you honestly think every single retailer that is currently complaining about the range being website exclusive would take on the entire thing had it been made open from the beginning? Absolutely not is my answer. History proves this to be true. Look at triang TT, most shops hated it.
''I think it's yet another example of Hornby trying to create a monopoly''
but any other manufacturer could have taken the plunge. it's an open market. it's just that hornby did so
I currently have the 2 starter sets and the 9 steam locos on preorder, I am hoping to go all in for this, but I will reassess the situation when I actually have some product in hand. This could be a gold mine for Hornby or kill their business financially and credibly. PS I do have 10s of thousands of pounds in OO gauge stuff, so this is not an easy decision.
I take it you’re not someone that complains about Hornby pricing
@@MoleculeMind7 probably because he’s a grown adult that realises good things in life cost money and that model trains are a luxury item, not something essential to someone’s survival in life.
@@Aaron-uf3sl I am entirely supportive of Hornby pricing. I’m on your team
@@MoleculeMind7 Actually pricing is a big issue, but there is no point in complaining about it when you can't even buy a decent loaf of bread and a pint of milk for 2 quid anymore. I was wanting the Turbomotive and the Coronation coaches, but at £260 for the loco and over £500 for all the coaches, I've decided I have enough OO gauge. Space is also a big consideration along with storage.
@@davidwatts1871 as a person with an ordinary job with all my own bills to pay including rent in the London area, I could have the train you specified in about 5 months. I think the issue perhaps is expecting to be able to buy all of everything immediately. To do that locos must not exceed £20 and coaches/wagons 50p at the most. Dream on I would suggest. I think the whole idea is you’re meant to save up and appreciate what you have instead of trying to have all of it now. What happened to getting your big presents at Christmas and birthday?
Hornby has current experience with TT120 and N via Arnold who they own. The range on their website of German outline is small though and TT120 has only ever been popular in central Europe.
My own view is Hornby has long been conscious that they only make one scale themselves so bought into Ho via Rivarossi and Jouef.
Other brands are multiscale:
Marklin-Trix (Z, N, Ho, 1)
Dapol (N, OO, O)
Piko (N, TT120, Ho, G)
Bachmann (N, Ho, OO)
Roco-Fleischmann (N, TT120, Ho)
Brawa (N, Ho)
Heljan (Ho, OO, O)
Rapido UK N, Ho
Tillig (TT120, Ho)
Thanks for sharing that breakdown.
As a long time O Gauge collector and modeller looking at a future downsizing of hobby space, the TT120 range offers a lot of possibilities. I haven’t operated small gauge since HD 3-rail in the 1950’s and 60’s, so have no vested interest in OO, or N Gauge. Plus living in Canada makes on line shopping particularly appealing.
Thanks for sharing that. There's definitely a cohort of people in similar circumstances who see TT:120 as an attractive (or possibly only) option for them to either re-enter or stay in the hobby. If Hornby are shipping direct to Canada then that's a plus too.
I did briefly model in 3mm scale but gave up due everything being in kits.I think Hornby have made a wise decision in adopting the continental TT scale of 1/120.This will allow some use of the the European ranges of TT scale. If I were starting a fresh now I would consider TT scale.You have more space compared to 00 and more detail compared to N gauge.
Thanks Garry. This is very much a common theme among responses.
I like the idea that it'll provide us with a true scale for British outline railways. At the moment however that's about the only thing I see going for it.
Terrible idea not to sell into shops. You can't just go to your local model shop and buy it there and then. You'll have to order it and wait for it to be delivered; no rushing back from the shop to crack on with the layout or run in the new loco.
For myself, I'm far too committed to OO.
I seriously considered N gauge, and yes - you can make jokes about my eyesight too - but my dexterity was never that good, and yet I like making kits and scratch building. I started purchasing 00 and building a layout, but I really wish TT:120 had been around 3 years ago when I started. Every part of my layout has been compromise after compromise, and I have a lot of space. I can't even run around a 7 coach train on an 8 ft station board in 00 (my room has 16 ft sides), and having every feature bounded by a sharp curve is the bane of 00 modelling.
Lets have a look at the pros and cons:
Pros.
1. It's an accurate scale/gauge ratio (the only mainstream one smaller than 0 gauge).
2. It's large enough for intermediate kit and scratch builders to give it a go.
3. It has the support of the largest manufacturer of UK outline, and the largest supplier of track and accessories.
4. at 1:120, or 2.5 mm / ft, you can either fit 60% more layout in your space, or run much longer trains.
5. For new product it is noticeably cheaper than 00.
Cons.
1. It only has the support of one loco manufacturer.
2. There is a limited range of product available right now or in the immediate future.
3. There is no second hand market of product available.
4. Not available in model shops.
Now will it negatively impact 00 scale? Hard to say. I feel like almost every popular prototype has been covered by at least one manufacturer, sometimes 2 or 3, in versions going back 50 years. I am frankly annoyed every time Hornby brings out a model of the same thing another manufacturer announces - it would be far better for them to make something the model world hasn't already seen a bunch of. How many new releases of real consequence have Hornby released in 00 scale over the past 3 years? Better then invest their efforts in a new and accurate scale than they chase after ever precious, expensive and fragile models that fewer and fewer people will care about. I am sure they can coast along with "new and improved" releases of older 00 models for another 20 years without losing money on that side of the business. After all, it seems to me that's what they have been doing for the last 20 years.
As a more recent modeller, I am sure the hobby looks very different to me than to the established folk of 10, 20 or more years in the hobby. To you longer time modellers, you have all the base stock in your chosen era. You are looking for special, rare items to fill in some gap or fancy. For recent starters, it has been much more frustrating. Models which are staples of any era are unavailable new, until some manufacturer announces them - and then they sell out on pre-order within days. Where can I pick up a new Deltic, or a class 31? Not to mention everything is over £150 - sometimes north of £200. I would be glad to be in on the ground floor, where I can order each new outline in my chosen era and region, at a price I can afford, without feeling forever "behind" all the established modellers.
Bottom line: they are (finally) taking a real risk and trying something new. I applaud them for that, and hope that it succeeds.
Hi, many thanks for your detailed commentary and analysis. You also point out a lot of failings in the 00 world today which I would agree - duplication of models, a trend towards high priced ultra detailed models, the push to pre-order everything before anyone has actually seen and tested the real thing. Hornby could have helped address Con#3 by engaging the other manufacturers and perhaps agreeing not to duplicate models for say the first 12 or 24 months. I can hear anyone reading this saying fat chance of that ever happening. As it stands they are now reliant on another manufacturer making the call. Hornby can fix Con:4 themselves. If both of these were addressed I believe they would have a fighting chance at least given the level of support I'm seeing in the comments.
You are aware than TT is only 0.48mm/ft larger than N gauge? So not much of a difference. British N Gauge is only 0.7mm under scale and barely noticeable st normal viewing distances.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 I have no British n-scale (I have some North American and I find it tricky especially in steam). However, that .48 makes TT 25% bigger than UK n-scale, and a whole 33% bigger than international n-scale. Since I am starting without an initial investment in N, to me TT makes more sense. It's "right" in terms of scale, and it's between 25 and 33% bigger than n-scale (depending on which version of the bible you read).
@@little_britain whilst all true, why bother with the new scale? What you can do in 00 you can do in quarter the area in N Gauge. TT has no benefits.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 For me, as I said, I have tried N in NA outline, and steam has been too iffy performance wise, and I struggle to craft decent buildings with it. I can probably manage TT a bit better. Also I find that while N is great for modelling large sweeping landscapes, it is hard to get that "chunky real feel" up close in such a small scale. I am hoping that TT will be a decent compromise.
I am planning to start my first track this year and upto now I was planning to start in N-scale. But the TT120 gave me food for thought. It is more detailed, the figurines are more detailed only the lack of trains and accesoires for a while let me think for a bit more ....
I model OO9 for the space savings of N and secondhand availabilities of OO/HO that are scaled the same. Bachmann and Peco has increased their ranges for scale specific products in the last few years already. Hornby is just splintering the already niche space.
I think you are unfairly biased in your initial comments e.g. describing the lady and her son as "naive". As someone with a large collection of OO, I have already taken the plunge and pre-ordered several TT120 models. I have never been happy with the fact that OO is a mongrel "Scale/gauge" and so too is UK N "Scale". On the other hand, TT120 has the correct gauge for the locos and I think that is noticeable even from the short videos of the A4 train set. I don't agree with Hornby's decision not to use retailers as if new blood can't see the models in a shop they won't know they exist; however there are rumours that they will be available through retail in e.g. Australia, so perhaps they will appear in shops in the UK eventually. I will be selling off my OO and starting over ;)
I might have been a bit harsh with the naive comment but the point is that N scale is established, proven and readily available. Hornby's TT:120 is unproven, not yet available and their is currently no backup manufacturer to help broaden the range and also help keep Hornby honest. The lack of presence in toy and model shops also bothers me. Good retailers can be great in pushing products for you. If another manufacturer chose to take on TT:120 and sell it through retailers, I would expect a strategy change from Hornby. Leaving the high street to a competitor would be suicidal. Having the correct scale/gauge is a scourge of 00 gauge and with a lot of vendors supporting re-gauging on their models I'm wondering if we might see a change here. If Hornby's TT:120 end product hits the mark it will be a worthy option though I'd still like to see another manufacturer step in and that's coming across in the channel poll. Many thanks for you comments.
This is interesting❤, but my eyesight, cannot go T scale or N😢
I am someone for whom the scale/gauge discrepancies of both 00 and N (and TT3) are unacceptable. I dabble with 2mm finescale, but that (like 3mm) requires too much do-it-yourself to suit me - plus, it is really too small. All models are compromises; TT120 looks to me lie a very attractive compromise, but it needs a big enough range: no realistic model railway can be populated only by the biggest passenger express locomotives.
As a sign of Hornby's willingness to engage, I e-mailed Simon Kohler this morning with some thoughts about the direction I thought TT120 should take: he responded within the hour - how does he find the time? These are early days; I look forward to the further releases from Hornby in the coming months - whether they entirely meet my personal preferences or not.
No interest at all in hornby or their version of TT scale. If I wanted to go to a smaller scale I would have gone to N not TT. I have seen plenty of TT layouts when I have visited various model fairs in Germany and it has never appealed. If I didn’t already have so much HO stuff when I retired I would definitely have gone to N gauge, but while the range is huge I cannot get all the same items in N that I can in HO. So I definitely will carry on ignoring hornby and their overpriced items.
Thanks John. Yeah, I don't see TT as a consideration for anyone with significant investments in 00, HO or N gauge.
@@EuviRail yeah, but you could say the same about 0. And 00. And H0, and S, TT, N, H0e, H0m, in fact every scale bar I, II, and III. Remember that what we know as being 00 withered and died after its first introduction, only to have another auspicious many years later, until it finally took hold.
Also we have to remember that N scale didn't kill triang TT. Slot cars did. Airplane kits did. Teevee did. The same also killed 00 in the UK, and to a certain extent N and 00.
When triang TT died there was no N scale UK range. Dublo was bankrupt. Triang went bankrupt a short time later. Lone star went bankrupt. Hornby are just expanding into a market. As Marklin figured: they didn't want to just become another N gauge manufacturer, so created Z. Hornby probably don't want to become just another N gauge manufacturer, doing the same locos as what everyone else is doing, which everyone comments about: hornby, Bachmann, dapol, heljan how many times have they spent lots doing the same rolling stock as each other?
@@muir8009 Yeah, absolutely, Anyone who has invested £10K+ in a given scale plus 100s or 1000s of hours on layout development is going to need a major reason to change (e.g. downsizing, divorce etc. and certainly won't make that decision based on an unproven new range from a single manufacturer. Hornby's demo run in the video wouldn't inspire confidence but I choose not to comment on this in the video as it was a prototype. Don't get me started on the duplication from manufacturers. This doesn't do anyone any good.
@@EuviRail absolutely agree. And from what I can gather new scales have rarely made people 'change' per se, more enticing would be buyers with a practical alternative when the purchaser is looking at a fresh start.
What I do find a little intriguing is how many commenters on the subject seem to fall into the category of the desire to possess only one scale, and on that single scale a vast accumulation of every item of rolling stock, wildly beyond the use in pursuit of realism. Doesn't matter of course, it's more just this immovable single scale pursuit.
I feel the tt120 could make a change for those with a small 00 layout without massive investment, who are struggling with the massive size that is present day 00. Its easy to forget that in the day the first 00 was tiny compared to today's offerings, even 0 at the time was a space saver. I've read a lot of commentary that people pursued N as the space saving alternative to 00, not because they like N particular (generally considered just too small, lacking the 'mass' of 00), but moreso that it's the only alternative.
It's always one of those things too: does Hornby stagnate with a range of 00 and nothing but 00, endlessly duplicating the same products with the same competitors? Pretty much the Same conundrum as other large manufacturers. Still think they could've given it a go with S; only one mass competitive range (00 only as opposed to 00 and N) and smaller but with the mass given by 0, but without the expense, and with the space saving advantages.
Could add of course Bachmann brought out 0n30 with very limited products, and almost no commercial precedent. G scale was a complete orphan, took many, many years before that gained a foothold.
It's interesting times :)
"I have seen plenty of TT layouts when I have visited various model fairs in Germany and it has never appealed" - go and see TT layouts in the UK then John, and I mean TT:100 (3mm) and you might change your mind. There's three of them at Warley NEC in November!