Having been a photographer since 1968, one thing I've learned is to not price commercial work such as food or products by time. (X photos in Y hours for $Z). This is because one of two things can happen: if you are efficient and finish early, the client will feel like they are justified in adding more work for you to do. Or if it is taking longer than the estimated amount of time, the client will want to rush you to finish so they won't have to pay more BUT later when they aren't happy with the quality of the rushed work, they will conveniently forget that they rushed you. What I do is price on a per finished image basis with no fixed time involved. That way if I finish early and everyone is happy, great. Or if it takes longer to achieve good work, there is no pressure to "just get the job done". Terry Thomas... the photographer Atlanta, Georgia USA
I feel like new photographers are often criticized for setting their prices too low and thus 'ruining the market', but the truth is they don't always know what is the 'right' range, because many projects are, like you say, unique to each client. So when they try to look for ideas of what their rate should be they don't often find them. I think it would be great for them to see what others are charging for different projects, even if it's an estimate. Thank you for your video ❤️
Totally! It's why I openly share my estimates inside my pricing course and we're developing for next year a way to share anonymous submissions of estimates in a resource vault. We need more transparency!
It's the same with any industry. In the tech industry, if a new tech consultancy starts up and charges lower prices, it will ruffle the feathers of the existing players and they'll murmur negative comments about lower quality work and how the business won't last. New photographers are providing a cheap service to cafes on a budget that wouldn't be able to afford more expensive photography anyway.
It is amazing just how many potential clients will flat out refuse the discovery call. It happens to me just about every day. They ask for your rate for one of two reasons. A- they just want market data so they have a database of photographers and their costs or B- They are trying to find out if you're too expensive to even start talking to, or the converse, too cheap that they think your work might be low quality. It's such a tough spot to be in. But as always Joanie, you give us great suggestions for how to deal with these situations. Thank you!!
Always a pleasure! Yep, if they don't give us a chance to understand what they need, how can we know that we can even solve their problems in the first place? We provide waaaay more than photos. We provide marketing solutions! And yep, premium pricing only works when the client can see ROI and it's on us to articulate the ROI by approaching the conversation as a consultant.
This video seems to be sent to convince me that the right client will come at the right time. So I'm really calm now, keep picthing until I get the right client. As you said before, nothing to lose right☺️ Thank you Joanie. Love you 💙
The analogy between a B2B photography engagement and a travel agent is perfect (I was a photographer for years and still follow really good photographers). This the best comparison I've seen that can be used to justify to a client why a discussion is appropariate. And you're right, price-only shoppers will often not be long-term clients. In addition, they will likely not pay you what the engagement is worth and tend to complain the most. You can even lose money sometimes with them.Starting out they may be necessary but definitely not once you get some traction in the business.
Such a great point! It's definitely an evolution as a business. Like the dating addage that I heard, sometimes you have to kiss some frogs before you find Prince Charming. It can be a powerful learning tool to work with low priced, hard to please clients and makes me so grateful to have persisted to finding better clients.
@@TheBiteShot agreed! My whole approach to my initial low-paying clients was to make their images look high-end so I could use those to market to better clients. On an hourly basis those low-paying clients were a net loss. But that investment was worth it over time.
A timely post, I just shot a project for a small business and they are pushing for RAW files. The paperwork stated the rate, deliverables (JPEG's with specific dimensions) and they received proofs but they asked for three times the number of deliverables. I've moved back to a previous market and have run into a couple "bullies" that try to rewrite the paperwork they've already signed. I cannot wait till the larger clients are comfortable shooting regularly.
Oh dear! For sure, if someone's being sneaky and not treating your relationship fairly, that's a no-go for me! Sorry you're having to deal with that. Sending my best as you move forward toward better clients. You'll find them!
Thanks so much for this great and informative video on how to set your pricing, Joanie! I agree that there are clients out there who'll ditch the discovery call and get straight to pricing. It's a flag that they'll likely go with the lowest bidder. It's so important to put your foot down and know your worth during these situations.
Joanie, thank you so much for sharing this important factor of running a food photography business. You confirmed a lot in this sweet and informative video! Happy Thursday ❤️
So glad it helped! Another analogy I like is like calling up a pizza restaurant for a pizza delivery and wanting to know how much a pizza costs before telling them what size, toppings and other items you want in your order.
An email asking that question is from a young or inexperienced photo buyer. I retired in 2010 after starting to receive text messages asking "how much". TEXTS! LOL ! Absolutely agree that it is an opportunity for education. Also agree that if they won't invest the time to talk to you, bye...
When it comes to calls with people, I’m usually the one who avoids it and emails back and forth instead 😂 I’m an introvert (working from home hasn’t helped) and I’ve always hated making phone calls, even as a teenager. Something I need to work on for sure.
Such good points and yeah, a red flag for sure, if just a simple call/zoom isn't for them to even bother with. Stand our ground. Good stuff, Joanie. Glad you're my teacher. Good stuff, good stuff. Rest? What is this word you speak, rest? Sometimes I'm real good with that and other times I'm how we say, not so good! Happy Weekend!
I needed to hear this LONG TIME AGO! I was struggling for years to make a "standard for rates" and this, this just took away all the weight. That being said, I'm not really comfortable with calls right away. Is a detailed e-mail okay at first? Can you share your standard procedure or a questionary that you always ask a client before you give an offer? Thank you for everything that you do. I've been a follower since the beggining of this chanell, it has helped me imensly!
Thank you Ines! From a sales perspective, you'll always set yourself up for greater opportunity of success with a phone call / Zoom. It's more efficient, helps to build the relationship, helps you gauge any red flags, and then you can really get at what they need without burdening the client to type out long e-mail responses. A lot gets missed in e-mail correspondence But for sure, I totally understand that it's more nerve wracking. We are working on some helpful resources on this topic and sales skills coming in the months ahead. Unfortunately the details of a successful discovery call with a client aren't something that can be quickly summed up and requires more in depth context. Excited to share more!
Photographers are not like repair shops or service people where there is a flat hourly rate plus parts and supplies, each client and situation is unique in what they want and what is the expected result. I asked my clients well used too, I'm not working as a photographer at this time, what is the "product" they want and sometimes if I sense that they have money issues what is the budget, most of the time I could come under their budget, sometimes its not exactly what they wanted but most of the time they were happy with what I did for them,. Most people don't realize they are paying for our skills, knowledge and experience and what we bring to the table so to speak.
Absolutely! I like to say that I shouldn't be paid less because I have grown my skills in a way that makes me more efficient in photoshoots. That experience is worth paying for :)
OMG I’m so over people that don’t want to give me a rate. What I immediately think as a customer is ‘she wants to talk to me to find out how much of my money she can get’. No we don’t know how long it will take so give me a daily rate. Otherwise we have to have a huge and detailed conversation about what’s involved so you can give me a fixed price. Note of course that these are probably details I don’t have fleshed out yet. Just give me your rate already and we’ll take it from there. You’re deliberately putting barriers in the sales process!
Thanks for sharing the perspective Paul! Would you say that some of that is a bit dependent on the client / agency? I could see possibly a case for providing my commercial day rate to an experienced art buyer at an agency if I was confident they understood the implications of scoping a project (though I've found that in those cases it's someone fishing for numbers to find the lowest price and I'll never win that game) Where client direct there isn't as much awareness of the costs beyond a day rate and giving a number too soon can cause frustration for the client once the scope is defined and the number is much higher than a day rate. But, also, I've run into a number of agencies who lack education around production and have found myself in an uphill battle in the sales process. Of course I can only speak to my own personal experience, and love any insights you could offer of the nuances from your perspective.
Hopefully this comment will save you time. The question that is in the title of the video isn't answered in the video. She just says to get on a call with the people and see what they want because every job is different....5min saved
Having been a photographer since 1968, one thing I've learned is to not price commercial work such as food or products by time. (X photos in Y hours for $Z). This is because one of two things can happen: if you are efficient and finish early, the client will feel like they are justified in adding more work for you to do. Or if it is taking longer than the estimated amount of time, the client will want to rush you to finish so they won't have to pay more BUT later when they aren't happy with the quality of the rushed work, they will conveniently forget that they rushed you.
What I do is price on a per finished image basis with no fixed time involved. That way if I finish early and everyone is happy, great. Or if it takes longer to achieve good work, there is no pressure to "just get the job done".
Terry Thomas...
the photographer
Atlanta, Georgia USA
I feel like new photographers are often criticized for setting their prices too low and thus 'ruining the market', but the truth is they don't always know what is the 'right' range, because many projects are, like you say, unique to each client. So when they try to look for ideas of what their rate should be they don't often find them. I think it would be great for them to see what others are charging for different projects, even if it's an estimate.
Thank you for your video ❤️
Totally! It's why I openly share my estimates inside my pricing course and we're developing for next year a way to share anonymous submissions of estimates in a resource vault. We need more transparency!
@@TheBiteShot Oh that's awesome!
It's the same with any industry. In the tech industry, if a new tech consultancy starts up and charges lower prices, it will ruffle the feathers of the existing players and they'll murmur negative comments about lower quality work and how the business won't last. New photographers are providing a cheap service to cafes on a budget that wouldn't be able to afford more expensive photography anyway.
Joanie, you've touched my life in a very profound and unique way, thank you for what you are doing.
Same here! Joanie is the best!
Thank you for the kind words. It makes my heart happy!!
It is amazing just how many potential clients will flat out refuse the discovery call. It happens to me just about every day. They ask for your rate for one of two reasons. A- they just want market data so they have a database of photographers and their costs or B- They are trying to find out if you're too expensive to even start talking to, or the converse, too cheap that they think your work might be low quality. It's such a tough spot to be in. But as always Joanie, you give us great suggestions for how to deal with these situations. Thank you!!
Always a pleasure! Yep, if they don't give us a chance to understand what they need, how can we know that we can even solve their problems in the first place? We provide waaaay more than photos. We provide marketing solutions! And yep, premium pricing only works when the client can see ROI and it's on us to articulate the ROI by approaching the conversation as a consultant.
This video seems to be sent to convince me that the right client will come at the right time. So I'm really calm now, keep picthing until I get the right client. As you said before, nothing to lose right☺️ Thank you Joanie. Love you 💙
Unquestionably the one of the very top folks on youtube teaching food photography! Learned a lot from her over the years... so...
The analogy between a B2B photography engagement and a travel agent is perfect (I was a photographer for years and still follow really good photographers). This the best comparison I've seen that can be used to justify to a client why a discussion is appropariate. And you're right, price-only shoppers will often not be long-term clients. In addition, they will likely not pay you what the engagement is worth and tend to complain the most. You can even lose money sometimes with them.Starting out they may be necessary but definitely not once you get some traction in the business.
Such a great point! It's definitely an evolution as a business. Like the dating addage that I heard, sometimes you have to kiss some frogs before you find Prince Charming. It can be a powerful learning tool to work with low priced, hard to please clients and makes me so grateful to have persisted to finding better clients.
@@TheBiteShot agreed! My whole approach to my initial low-paying clients was to make their images look high-end so I could use those to market to better clients. On an hourly basis those low-paying clients were a net loss. But that investment was worth it over time.
A timely post, I just shot a project for a small business and they are pushing for RAW files. The paperwork stated the rate, deliverables (JPEG's with specific dimensions) and they received proofs but they asked for three times the number of deliverables. I've moved back to a previous market and have run into a couple "bullies" that try to rewrite the paperwork they've already signed. I cannot wait till the larger clients are comfortable shooting regularly.
Oh dear! For sure, if someone's being sneaky and not treating your relationship fairly, that's a no-go for me! Sorry you're having to deal with that. Sending my best as you move forward toward better clients. You'll find them!
Thanks so much for this great and informative video on how to set your pricing, Joanie! I agree that there are clients out there who'll ditch the discovery call and get straight to pricing. It's a flag that they'll likely go with the lowest bidder. It's so important to put your foot down and know your worth during these situations.
Exactly this! Thanks Kevin!
Joanie, thank you so much for sharing this important factor of running a food photography business. You confirmed a lot in this sweet and informative video! Happy Thursday ❤️
You are so welcome Phebe!
Love the travel agent analogy. 🙌
So glad it helped! Another analogy I like is like calling up a pizza restaurant for a pizza delivery and wanting to know how much a pizza costs before telling them what size, toppings and other items you want in your order.
Thank you Joanie, always says the right thing!
An email asking that question is from a young or inexperienced photo buyer. I retired in 2010 after starting to receive text messages asking "how much". TEXTS! LOL ! Absolutely agree that it is an opportunity for education. Also agree that if they won't invest the time to talk to you, bye...
Travel Agent is a perfect analogy! Great video.
Standing Ovation! Thank you so much !
I wanna learn more about the food photography business from you!
Hi Arthur! We have a free workshop about business coming soon! thebiteshot.com/food-photography-workshops/
@@TheBiteShot Aww I just looked at the date I can’t make it on a Tuesday. That bums me out. I really am interested
When it comes to calls with people, I’m usually the one who avoids it and emails back and forth instead 😂 I’m an introvert (working from home hasn’t helped) and I’ve always hated making phone calls, even as a teenager. Something I need to work on for sure.
100%. Every job is unique. Hop on those calls!
Heck yes! Happy Thursday Barbara!
Happy Thursday! xo @@TheBiteShot
This is super helpful!! Thank you for sharing this 🙏
Glad it was helpful!
This is so right
Such good points and yeah, a red flag for sure, if just a simple call/zoom isn't for them to even bother with. Stand our ground. Good stuff, Joanie. Glad you're my teacher. Good stuff, good stuff. Rest? What is this word you speak, rest? Sometimes I'm real good with that and other times I'm how we say, not so good! Happy Weekend!
Ha ha! I know, you're always making something fun!!!
@@TheBiteShot 🖌🎨📸
Oh my, thank you SO MUCH😘
Como siempre un gran video, Joannie eres asombrosa, gracias por esos consejos, un gran abrazo.
Gracias!!!
Very useful! Thank you!
I needed to hear this LONG TIME AGO! I was struggling for years to make a "standard for rates" and this, this just took away all the weight. That being said, I'm not really comfortable with calls right away. Is a detailed e-mail okay at first? Can you share your standard procedure or a questionary that you always ask a client before you give an offer? Thank you for everything that you do. I've been a follower since the beggining of this chanell, it has helped me imensly!
Thank you Ines! From a sales perspective, you'll always set yourself up for greater opportunity of success with a phone call / Zoom. It's more efficient, helps to build the relationship, helps you gauge any red flags, and then you can really get at what they need without burdening the client to type out long e-mail responses. A lot gets missed in e-mail correspondence But for sure, I totally understand that it's more nerve wracking. We are working on some helpful resources on this topic and sales skills coming in the months ahead. Unfortunately the details of a successful discovery call with a client aren't something that can be quickly summed up and requires more in depth context. Excited to share more!
@@TheBiteShot Thank you! Excited for all that you have in store for us. Thank you for everything you do for this community.
Love this!
Perfect
Very helpful. Thank you for all you do
You are so welcome Logan!
🎯❣️
Thank you !
Preach!
Photographers are not like repair shops or service people where there is a flat hourly rate plus parts and supplies, each client and situation is unique in what they want and what is the expected result.
I asked my clients well used too, I'm not working as a photographer at this time, what is the "product" they want and sometimes if I sense that they have money issues what is the budget, most of the time I could come under their budget, sometimes its not exactly what they wanted but most of the time they were happy with what I did for them,.
Most people don't realize they are paying for our skills, knowledge and experience and what we bring to the table so to speak.
Absolutely! I like to say that I shouldn't be paid less because I have grown my skills in a way that makes me more efficient in photoshoots. That experience is worth paying for :)
Invaluable information. 💯
Thankful for you my friend!!!
100 percent agree with you
I agree 💯%
Woot! Hope you're well Vince!
OMG I’m so over people that don’t want to give me a rate. What I immediately think as a customer is ‘she wants to talk to me to find out how much of my money she can get’.
No we don’t know how long it will take so give me a daily rate. Otherwise we have to have a huge and detailed conversation about what’s involved so you can give me a fixed price. Note of course that these are probably details I don’t have fleshed out yet. Just give me your rate already and we’ll take it from there. You’re deliberately putting barriers in the sales process!
Thanks for sharing the perspective Paul! Would you say that some of that is a bit dependent on the client / agency? I could see possibly a case for providing my commercial day rate to an experienced art buyer at an agency if I was confident they understood the implications of scoping a project (though I've found that in those cases it's someone fishing for numbers to find the lowest price and I'll never win that game) Where client direct there isn't as much awareness of the costs beyond a day rate and giving a number too soon can cause frustration for the client once the scope is defined and the number is much higher than a day rate. But, also, I've run into a number of agencies who lack education around production and have found myself in an uphill battle in the sales process. Of course I can only speak to my own personal experience, and love any insights you could offer of the nuances from your perspective.
Hopefully this comment will save you time. The question that is in the title of the video isn't answered in the video. She just says to get on a call with the people and see what they want because every job is different....5min saved
U didn't answer
What's your rate
🙄
Yep! Because I need to know the scope in order to put together a price. And every client is different and every estimate is custom.