A typical argument is that multihulls are not allowed in the Sydney Hobart for reasons related to safety, and in particular that multihulls typically cannot right themselves once inverted. At the same time several maxi trimarans have successfully broken global circumnavigation records, and in doing so have sailed right past the South East Cape of Tasmania, including IDEC Sport which managed 10 consecutive days above 800 nautical miles in the Southern Ocean. These maxi trimarans must meet World Sailing Offshore Special Regulations for Category 0 trans-oceanic races (www.sailing.org/inside-world-sailing/rules-regulations/offshore-special-regulations/) "which pass through areas in which air or sea temperatures are likely to be less than 5°C (41°F) other than temporarily, where boats must be completely self-sufficient for very extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance." The Sidney Hobart does not use the World Sailing Offshore Special Regulations but instead uses the Australian Sailing Special Regulations (cdn.revolutionise.com.au/site/uoa1gvknbxk0adjq.pdf) which are similar but have a few differences. The Sydney Hobart is a Category 1 race which includes "offshore races of long distance and well offshore, where boats must be self-sufficient for extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance." There is no Category 0 for trans-oceanic races in the Australia Sailing Special Regulations. In any case it is interesting and perhaps even ironic that even multihulls that are deemed safe enough to circumnavigate the globe in the Southern Ocean are not seen as safe enough to compete in the Sidney Hobart per this argument.
It’s laughable that multis aren’t allowed, especially with the ridiculous argument that they “can’t right themselves”. You’re 100% correct in your reasoning, and typical of Australia to kiss the a**es of their sponsors.
@@SailingTipsCaI mean a Neel could do it safely, but would you want to? An Outremer for sure, maybe a HH and definitely a Gunboat. It’s just the old-money establishment in Aus up to their usual antics who are stopping it…
@@SailingTipsCa . Is the implication that the leading mono hulls are 'production boats ? Is there any stipulation against custom builds ? I'll always prefer to take my chances to be wrong way up on the surface than to be right way up on the bottom . Yes, I'm a long time multi hull cruiser. Travel faster -- travel flat ! ✌
Shaun Langman’s Team Australia, a French built 60 foot trimaran holds the outright record for the Sydney to Hobart. Shaun also owns and sails the oldest and shortest yacht In the race. His son raced it this year. Shaun has partitioned the SCYC to allow him to race his tri in a seperate class of course. Australia has a great history of multihulls designers like the late Lock Crowther. Your comments are spot on. It’s about money.
There are some great Australian multihull skippers too like Jimmy Spithill - wouldn’t it be cool if he could race an Australian boat in the Sydney Hobart instead of (or in addition to) racing multihulls in other countries! And the amateur multihull scene seems quite evolved and active with their OMR rating system, which seems much better than the multihull rating system we use here!
As someone who took part in the first multi regatta held at a major Sydney club and raced offshore multis I'd say it's certainly not about money - multihull owners just don't turn up in significant numbers outside of the French pros. Even when multis are welcomed into the major events they still don't turn up decades later. Multis had much bigger numbers racing offshore when they had their own events like the Multihull Transpac, Multihull Bermuda, and Crystal Trophy. These are simple facts, just as it's a fact that racing multis now form a smaller proportion of rthe racing fleet in many major events like the UK Round The Island Race than they did decades ago. So clearly, mixing multis in with monos is NOT helping multis and therefore we should consider abandoning the idea. After all, the concept that a sporting discipline like mono racing should not have its own specialist major events is ludicrous - no other sport demands that all disciplines be allowed in major events. Car racing doesn't mix F1 cars into the NASCAR series, cars don't race with motorcycles, long surfboards don't compete in the same event as short surfboards, recumbent bicycles don't do the Tour de France, archery competitions don't allow guns, beach cat events don't welcome windsurfers and kitefoilers - the list is endless.
April, 1992: Fred Gan’s F-31 OSTAC TRIUMPH wins the bi-annual Australian Offshore Multihull Championships. In the associated Brisbane to Gladstone Ocean Race, BOBSLED, a 67 foot million dollar racing monohull, made headlines in breaking the monohull record by an impressive hour and a half. The trailerable F-31 (a family cruiser) had caught and passed BOBSLED finishing an hour and fifteen minutes ahead! Ostac Triumph Bobsled - somewhat larger and a lot more expensive
I recall similar in the Round Island, Isle of Wight, race. A big IOR style mono, skippered by a pop star, got the course record and made UK press headlines…they somehow forgot to mention that Thaly were beaten by a Firebird catamaran…all of 26’
@@markthomasson5077 So what? The clear performance facts indicate that a kitefoiler would win the biggest beach cat races, a good amateur on a streamlined recumbent bicycle would beat the Tour de France pros a lot of the time, a motorbike may beat the top cars in the BTCC, an average SUP surfer could beat the world's top pro surfers on shortboard in some conditions, and so it goes. There's no point in crowing when one type of equipment beats another type of equipment since it's so obvious that in other sports no one even bothers. Kitefoilers normally beat A Class cats and Moths hollow but the A Class and Moth guys don't care nor do they allow the kites to race. BTW I'm a multi owner whose family has been into multis for four generations.
Multihulls were allowed in this year's Melbourne to Hobart, which sails down the West Coast of Tasmania and is arguably a more dangerous race than the Sydney to Hobart. There were only 3 multihulls, each around 50 feet long (so much slower than the big multis), and they were placed 1st, 2nd and 4th on scratch. At least this means there is a race now that can demonstrate that multis can be safe in the southern oceans (although, as you point out, this has already been proven by round the world boats).
That was my thought also. Some commented on the potential sea state on the east coast of Australia south of Sydney as being particularly nasty in certain conditions due to interactions between currents and prevailing swell.
A shipping container, can hold a lot of weight.. so thats a very "open" matter on its own. Shipping containers come in quite a few sizes also, not to mention shapes. I see a headache in formulating the rule book :d. Multi's Should formulate their own race.. not join the Lawyereed up debaclle that is the Multi's of today. Rule #1.. No lawyers. Rule #2. race with good intent and a pure heart.. after that. go hard. lols.
@@SailingTipsCacut the ends off, bash a V in the bottom and weld the ends together. The shipping container has now become a hull. 😂 disclosure - I’m in Darwin the home of the Beer Can Regatta. We can and do make boats out of anything.
The organizers of the Sydney-Hobart race have an important and historical asset to maintain and enhance, the reputation of the race itself. If they choose to exclude multis or any other type for the benefit of the race then so be it. That the race is supported, even dominated by Australian yachts is a good thing not a bad thing.
A cat called Oli contested the race this year i think he and his crew finished last several days after the winning team but was still greeted by a small crowd at the finish line some of them with gifts.
I don’t think it’s about sponsorship. It predates the sponsorship era. I think it’s just about the well off owners of expensive monohulls not wanting to be shown up by multis. There has always been a class divide
Iirc in the 1890s, people started building fin keel boats. The establishment then redrew the handicap rules to punish fin keels, which promptly went out of fashion. The rules are made by the establishment in their interest.
I think the multihull vs monohull debatewrt Sydney-to-Hobart is a bit of a precursor to the real one that will be "when do foilers join the game?". At speed, the tri is just a beefy support structure for a wide foil. Which could be done on a mono - it just starts to look like a tri. movable daggerboards were an easier fitout to the big 100s, but fully flying hulls changes the game - whether it is on a mono or a tri. Imagine Comanche or WIld Oats with foils, flying the hull.
Yes, and multihulls are increasingly being invited to other events as well, with the race organizers creating separate divisions providing enough multis show up.
6 out of 10 qualifying regattas list in the NOR's that you must complete prior to entering the SHYR allows multihulls in their regattas the other 4 forbid multihulls to enter as they are strictly monohulls.
They are allowed in the Melbourne to Hobart as well. Which not only crosses the Bass Straight as well but goes down the West Coast which is quite often a lot wilder than the East
This really make me wish there was more non french multi hulls in the ultim 23 32 class, i do like that my cpuntry produce the most perfoming sailboat of the world but it would be nice to see a bit more competition
@@NICOLAS25478 Good to know! I understand that culturally there’s quite a bit of sponsorship money in France for this type of thing and possibly a bit less in other places which might also be part of the issue.
@@SailingTipsCa Where is the problem? You just need to comply to the class rules as in every class. Guillaume Verdier (VPLP) the designer of Gitana and Idec Sport worked for Team New Zeland. For a European, New Zealand is literaly the other side of the world. So its up to the nations (USA, AUS, NZ,...) to build and come and compete, or not. Look at Cole Brauer (USA) she entered the Class 40 and now she is with Malizia (Imoca). Also Charlie Enright (USA) raced succesfully the Volvo Ocean in an Imoca but left the class now, as far as i know. And so many others great sailors sailing the Volvo Ocean race for example. The thing is that every region of the world has its own specific classes, its own races, its own evolutions, its own establishments,... FYI, I live in Belgium.
@@SailingTipsCa Talking about sponsorship, it is not that easy as you might think. Professional sailors (in France for example) are also professional sponsor seakers. They are even trained for that to create a company around their sailing/racing activity to generate a business with their preparation team that also has to be payed with a real employements throughout the project and the sposorship.
I think like many who have commented though including yourself, while certainly multihulls are of course faster under most circumstances than even the big 100 ft monohulls, there is another and important factor in respect of the S2H, and that is about tradition. The S2H is about monohulls, it always has been and the organisers are keenly aware of this. That by keeping it restricted it respects the history of the race. It’s all too easy to say it’s about the money/sponsorship and that most if not all such fast multihulls come out of Europe. The argument against this of course is that over the race’s history competitors from around the world and their boat designs have been widely varied and won the race, not just Australians. The other factor that is missing in this discussion is that to most sailors the real prize isn’t line honours but rather to win the race on handicap. If one was to introduce fast multihulls this potentially could diminish the likelihood of smaller and/or even older monohulls from ever have the chance to win the race on handicap, and so hence might result in increasingly smaller fleets bothering to enter. So, in summary, personally I am glad the race is restricted to monohulls and I just wish more focus wasn’t just on the big gun boats and line honours but rather that the media payed more attention to the handicap winning boats for in reality it’s these boats that make up the majority of the fleet and have always done so.
Tradition is a perfectly sound reason! I also agree there’s too much focus on line honours and it would be nice for the handicap winners to get some more accolades as they are generally out there suffering for longer!
Too true re the smaller boats being out there for much longer. My own boat, 1974 Swanson 30 (Mulberry) did 6 S2Hs let alone a myriad of other offshore races, and while never placed that high in the results she did represent the spirit of the race. Amateurs entering and competing for the enjoyment of taking up the challenge.
Thanks for an intelligent response. I've done a few Hobarts, normally on 30 footers by personal preference, and also race and own multis. The monos have every right to have their own events, just as every other type of sporting equipment gets to run its own events. People who complain about the Hobart being just for monos are complete hypocrites because they don't complain about motorcyclists, touring cars, skiers, multihullers, kitefoilers, dinghy sailors, users of standard bicycles, archers, surfers and all other sportspeople running their own specialist events just like mono sailors do.
@@ChrisThompson-dh7mv I think if they want to have a monohull-only event then that’s perfectly reasonable, but then they should just say that’s what they want and such advocates should stop saying things like “multihulls aren’t suitable” in order to somehow make the case!
Shaun had a 60ft tri ready as did Vodaphone, there have been a few large Crowthers ready. Scallywag racing has a tri ready as well as a few large Schionings and French Outremers. S2H has become a protect obsecure group of insular minority preventing the best sailing to be displayed. If you want spectacular go multihull like GP sailing coming to Sydney in Feb.
Bullshit. It's ridiculous to claim that mono yachts, which have by far the most sailors of any type in Australia are a minority. Nor are they any more insular than shorthanded sailors who don't allow fully crewed boats to race, multi sailors who don't allow Moths and kitefoils into their regattas, motorcyclists who don't allow cars into motorcycle racers, skiers who don't allow snowboarders into ski events. EVERY sporting discipline is allowed its own specialist events and the only time people complain about it is when monos do just what multihulls do, and run their own events. By the way, I've done a bunch of Hobarts, raced shorthanded offshore multis, and have two multis.
If they allowed multihulls, the race would be over in 24 hours or less, then everyone would switch off the telly and go to the pub. Event sponsors would get less time to promote their goods and services. They could always make the multihulls do a round trip. Sydney, then leave Tasmania to starboard and back to Sydney. Speaking of Trimarans. How long is the bowsprit on your F82? Is it in a tube or is it hinged at the bow? What is your opinion on those 2 different methods of mounting a bowsprit? Thanks Glenn
Yes you’re right there is definitely an advantage from an advertising/sponsor perspective to have the race last a bit longer, and they could get multihulls to do a round trip! The bowsprit on our F-82R is about 6’ / 180cm and it is hinged at the bow with fixed whisker stays and an adjustable bobstay to enable folding. The tube mounted variety can eliminate the need for whisker stays and sometimes even the bobstay, with the disadvantage that the tip is less accessible from the boat for maintenance (e.g. to service blocks/furlers) the tube is a common source of water ingress into the main hull, and it uses quite a bit of space inside the main hull when retracted, so I have a slight preference for the folding variety.
@@glenn5ft19 If you decide to go folding a really cool way to do it is to use a Forespar toggle and socket on the bow (like a large monohull would use on the mast for a traditional spinnaker pole) which allows you to articulate the pole under load in any direction by adjusting the whisker and bob stays. Good luck with your build!
@@alexanderSydneyOz Thats cos you think the race is about line honors. It aint. Its about the handicap winner. Midnight Rambler won in 98 Some rich yank plonker was in a hotel room in Hobart whinging about how dangerous the race was when Rambler arrived... but I don't remember the name of his boat. Neither does any other sailor, We won the Mornington cup ( a significant but local Port Phillip Bay race) in Minna last year although some bloke with a faster boat got there first
It depends what aspect of sailor you wish to promote. The narrator does not, for example, tell viewers that the race is conducted by the CRUISING Yacht Club of Australia.
Despite being hosted by CYCA there is still a strong emphasis on sailing from Sydney to Hobart as fast as possible per the number of fully custom super-maxis that participate and are hardly “cruising” boats!!!
As someone that has done 5 Hobart's, I really hope they don't ever allow multihulls. I have nothing against them, but a lot of the appeal of the Hobart is that it still feels like a traditional race. I like up next to boats like Comanche and they just look like a bigger faster version of us. You get that with multihulls. These big offshore, foiling multis are so far removed from anything else it takes away from the competitive feel of the race. I also don't really know how they handicap them. You talk exclusively about line honours which is what the media focuses on, but the actual race is an IRC race. Can you fairly handicap a trimaran to a 34 ft monohull?
Just like monohulls there are both box rules and handicap rating systems for multihulls. Most of the monohulls in the Fastnet also race handicapped under IRC, and I believe this is where the “overall” trophy is awarded, but there are also box rule classes for Class 40 and IMOCA 60. Similarly, multihulls have a handicapped MOCRA division and an unlimited division, which is pretty much the Ultime class trimarans. So they don’t really have a way of rating a 35 foot monohull against an Ultime foiling trimaran and it still seems to go okay.
You are spot on - there is a time and place for everything. Multi's have their places. The Sydney 2 Hobart is not their place. By the way I love Multi's and there are plenty of other races around Australia that they compete in! If people are so keen on Multi's, why don't they do a Brisbane to Hobart Race on the same dates! All finishing together!
The answer to the question is simple: it’s another example of the golden rule, ie people with the gold make the rules. The Sydney-Hobart race did once allow multihulls, and the result was that sail boats that cost less than half a leaner sail boat win. Then a multihull crashed into a whale at night at speed killing the whale and the crew was not recovered. This gave the moustache twirling epaulette wearing toffs the excuse to ban multihulls. It’s all about power and protecting investment, not about racing.
Interesting - I didn’t know that they did once allow multis but your story makes sense! Lots of people have cited safety concerns but the Melbourne-Hobart which ran a few days later does allow multis and they sail around the Southern tip of Tasmania.
@ The tri that has the fatalities was a lock Crowther Kraken 40’ with submersible outer hulls. A very fast boat in it’s time. I sailed a Crowther Buccaneer 33’ tri around the Sw Pacific in 1985 …also a quite fast boat…we averaged around 8 kts, top speed we saw was 28kts, & to windward 12 kts when the main hull would lift clear. I currently sail a Simpson 11m cruising catamaran which averages 7.5 kts…We’ve seen 14 kts…but really nothing like the Crowther tri.
Trying to get the multihulls out of Sydney Harbour in a North Easterly breeze would be a royal mess! This year's start was hairy enough with the Super Maxis
Look up the history of the French multihulls in the 70s (Eric Tabarly, Olivier de Kersauzon), winning all the Pacific races but being snubbed by the all the local moguls that thought multihulls was just cheating and old money and class belong to monohulls.
To be fair, it's not unusual historically for multihulls to be snubbed, however many races that previously didn't allow them are now more welcoming, maybe in response to dwindling monohull fleets, maybe because they're suddenly "fashionable" due the America's Cup and SailGP?
@@tmuxor Back in the 2000 when a serious attempt at multihulls was floated, according to someone I know deepely involved it was vetoed by the Royal Tasmanian Yacht club as they wont have the room for the multihulls after the race. But we all know thats an excuse they want it wont by a monohull
As a multihull sailor, it is hard to give the huge budget, half boats the credit they desire. It is not that I don’t admire the grace and technology of them… it is the simple fact that all craft has a purpose. Multihulls are for speed. I understand the old guard and the investment made by the owners of the huge maxi’s. it is hard, however, to give full credit to a race that only allows the half boats. I understand we all have our views but it should be noted that we see it as a race of tall ships or couta boats. They are beautiful though 😊
I'd like to see an Imoka (the Vendee Globe vessels) those things are amazing. I can watch film of them blasting along for hours. They are olny 60ft it wouod be interesting to see how a 2 handed one would go agathe bigger super maxis
IMOCAs have sailed 640NM in 24 hours crewed and just over 600NM in 24 hours solo which are in fact the current monohull distance records so I think they’d likely take the super maxis!
There is a lesser publicised race called the Brisbane to Gladston that starts at Easter each year. There used to be multihulls in that race and they obviously would always win, there was an interesting period where there were some hot trimarans and depending on whether there was a tail or headwind, a cat or a tri would win. But they started trying to attract the big mono's, initially they tried staring the multi's further back so the mono's would be in front as they went past the crowds at Redcliffe, but that didn't work, so eventually the multi's were banned a while back. I don't believe there was ever an incident other than a mono getting hit by lightning, but I suspect it is more "fun" (aka, profitable) for organisers and politicians to hang out with wealthy maxi owning friends than a mid-level nobody who has a fast cat...
Wow I didn’t realize the Brisbane to Gladston no longer allowed multis! You certainly get more bang for your buck in terms of performance from a multi so if you’re trying to attract big-budget monos it makes sense to “allow” them to win…
Not true, Greg. The multis were never allowed in the mono Gladstone. In fact the offshore multis in Brisbane found they couldn't even sail with the existing club for small cats, which makes it rather odd when the fact that they didn't sail with the monos is blamed on prejudice. Every other popular form of sporting equipment gets to have its own events - why not monos? There is no reason at all for the B-G to have to invite multis - do you complain when the Qld "Supercars" event bans F1 cars and motorbikes? Do you feel that the major Australian small-cat event, the Wildcat, has to allow in Moths, 18 Foot Skiffs and kitefoilers? Do you feel that the World Surfing League's Qld round should have to allow in SUPs, foil surfing, Mals, boogie boards, kneelos, bodyboarders, surf kayaks and every other form of surfing? Does the shorthanded sailing scene now have to allow boats with 10 crew? If those events aren't criticised for not being more open, why should the offshore mono events be criticised? By the way I say this as a former Hobart racer, offshore shorthanded multihull racer, and multi owner who thinks that monos should be allowed to have their own events just as I can with my multi and when shorthanding.
@@SailingTipsCa Nope, I'm not sure what Chris is rambling on about. So, multis where first invited in the BGYR in the 1960's and they raced every year. I have watched the fleet go past a family property almost every year for the last 20+ years and noticed they were being handicapped and then disappeared. I did miss last year's race, and in doing a bit of googling, noticed that they were invited back again as a one off for 2024. "As discussed at MYCQ meetings over the last few months - the 2024 Brisbane to Gladstone Yacht Race will be a single event, run jointly by QCYC and MYCQ. This reunites the monohull and multihull fleets after many years apart and should make for a better, bigger event for all participants, an easier event to organise and promote and a greater spectacle for audiences on and off the water." I don't know the real reason the multis stopped getting invited. On Chris' random statements about mixed fleets, I miss the old Bathurst 1000 when all the stock car classes raced together...
There is a decent multihull racing scene in Australia, so there’s room for them somewhere, but maybe Sydney Harbour is just too small for any more boats in this event? I know berthing limitations do limit some racing fleet sizes in other places.
Im sure they would find space for them.. Simply by pushing the prices up and the little 30-40 footers wouldnt be able to afford marina the marina space ;)
local owners would not be kept off the podium if they got their own multihulls if they were allowed. It's also good to see a race with traditional boats only
@@alanbstard4 Definitely lots of sponsorship money for the big monos in Sydney Hobart! It would be nice to see some Aussies challenge the French on the multihull ocean racing scene!
I am sure these multi hulls designed to sail around the world could manage the Hobart, though 600 miles sitting right on the edge of the continental shelf, especially across Bass Strait would contain some nasty wave forms different from the southern ocean. My question is, where would they put them. The Marina’s around Hobart are not set up for them and why invest in docking space for a type of boat which is of relatively little interest to the sailing community to actually sail, and only might turn up for a couple of days a year.
You can still "Do a Hobart" on a multihull, by entering the Melbourne to Hobart Westcoaster, starting a day after the Sydney to Hobart. Last year 2024, a fleet of 20 started, of which, 3 were multihulls. Multis finished 1.3.4 across the line, 2nd was a Carkeek 43 mono.
Sure - there are some wind-over-current conditions on the east coast that are tricky, but it is hard to argue they are worse than bass strait - shallow, big currents. I think if you look at the history of wrecks, then that south coast of Victoria has demonstrated it is treacherous. Then there are the big swells and conditions on the south west of Tasmania - potentially epic - and the lee shore risk of west Tasmania. So if multis can sail in the west coaster it is hard to preclude them from the Sydney to Hobart on safety grounds…
I definitely would not take a 30 foot catamaran in the Sydney Hobart! Maybe a Seacart 30 but a larger trimaran would be better as they are generally better at handling snotty weather than catamarans.
to me we the French have a real expertise in multihull. It was Eric Tabarly the first to think that multihulls could have big benefits vs monohull so i can understand that some races are just open to monohull and national companies because of the money invested...even if it's not very fair and representative of the modern sailing...i think futur is multihulls (GP is a good exemple) and monohull scow (another French creation and expertise)
Why would they allow? They are hardly short of boats or crew or viewers. If multi hull racers want to race that course they are welcome to it. The course is open year round. Go to it and enjoy. But leave this race alone. Go race your own race. Theres plenty of water and wind. You don't need S2H to change their rules just for you. You arent special.
@SailingTipsCa exactly! It's not like the wind is only blowing in those few days after Christmas and the water dries up otherwise. If multi-hulls want to race then go race. But leave us alone.
The main concerning factor with sailing a multihull in sporty conditions is that they can capsize and when they do are stable upside-down unlike keelboats which are somewhat self-righting.
Given five Ultimes just raced around the world via the three capes, plus multis regularly race across the North Atlantic, there’s no question about their “strength”. It’s also been disproven time and time again that multis have a much higher righting moment than monos, and are no more prone to capsize.
@@PN_48 Yes numerous ULTIMES passing south of Tasmania on around the world trips is an interesting counter-example to the strength and safety arguments. The capsize resistance really depends on the specific multihull with some being more capsize-prone than others. For example I wouldn’t take a Reynolds 33 but a Seacart 30 would probably be fine, as those regularly do the Fastnet.
Not only should multihulls not be allowed in the Hobart, but nor should vessels who’s systems require an engine to run 24/7 to power them, as do the current crop of 100 footers. Yep, sorry to burst your bubble but Comanche, Wild Oats XI, Blackjack, etc all need a 150 hp diesel engine running the whole time to power the winches and hydraulics that are used to trim the sails, canting keels and dagger boards etc. So essentially they’re motorboats. How is this sailing?
It is kind of ironic that the “traditionalists” who don’t want multis somehow turn a blind eye to the Diesel powered systems on monos! Lots of races require the use of human power for this stuff…
I didn't know that They had to run generators I thought the coffe grinders were for doing all that. So you would have to have few burly crew members there for their muscle.
The french do alright in the monohulls they sail in the Hobart, have a look at COCODY, a JPK 11.80 which SAILED here from France, and finished 8th o'alll in IRC and won her division by 17 hrs!! Also winner of 2 handed was combined aussie / french crew, on MISTRAL. winning their div by 10 hrs. The french do well down here...
Some people chucked a fit at the suggestion of double handers entering,we know why.I have a cat background from many moons ago( still have one) I remember the clubs that didn’t want them near their clubs.A lot of older farts than me would be spinning in their graves today.😂😂😂😂
In my opinion, the most obvious reasoning for not including multihulls is because the Sydney to Hobart race is focused on the line honours as far as the media coverage is concerned. If multihulls were to race in the same event, even with handicaped starts, the multhulls would dominate the line honours, and sponsorship would drift away from the monohull fleet. Once that happens, the bigger maxi yachts would start dropping out of the event. That would see the eventual demise of the race. I'm sure the event organisers would be rubbing the hands together at the thought of pulling in some more international sponsorship dollars, but at what cost eventually? Please forgive my cynicism, but the race has already become a huge media event, and as such, the coverage is primarily focused on the bigger boats and very little on the smaller boats and the camaraderie and dedication of the crews that race for the challenge! Only time will tell!
Yes the media fixation on line honours definitely drives sponsorships at that level, and unfortunately the smaller boats which make up the majority of the fleet don’t get nearly as much attention, despite being out there much longer and arguably working much harder to finish the race without their engines running the whole time to power winches and systems!
Also Sydney to Hobart doesn’t have the fastest ocean racers with the exception of Comanche. For example.. Volvo Imocas ocean 60 to 70 footers both dual and teamed crewed boats such as Boris Herrmann's Team Malizia …also it doesn’t have the big Euro boats such as 125 footer 'Skorpios…. I’d like to see more Euro and Ocean Imoca racing yachts in this otherwise a local sailing event ….
In fact Scorpios wouldn’t be allowed either as it exceeds the maximum length of 30.8m / 101 ft for fully crewed boats! It would definitely be cool to see some IMOCAs which have now surpassed Comanche with 24 hour distance records but being mostly based in Lorient France and a few in the UK they may not want to bother with the long delivery.
Personally I see Mono and Multi-hulls as two very different animals. Same a foils vs no foils. In other terms like matching Stock Cars with F1 cars. Totally different IMHO. Remember when Americas Cup racers were required to sail their 12 Meter boats from home port to defenders port in order to qualify for the race? That and when Dinosaurs roamed the earth.
Yes they are quite different - here’s a video I did on Why Are Trimarans So Fast?!?!? th-cam.com/video/GxdCcsAdOVM/w-d-xo.html And that’s not even getting into foils, rotating masts etc!
It is a bit of a joke that they don't allow multis, but they allow motor sailors like the maxis that need engines running constantly to run the hydraulic winches!!! It is also noteworthy that 3 Catamarans are racing in the Melbourne to Hobart, which of course sails across Bass Strait and down the west coast of Tasmania, which we call the "wild side" . In the Sydney to Hobart there is always a big deal about crossing Bass Strait but in reality they are sailing in the Tasman Sea....
As a multihull owner I'd say it's a silly question, just like asking why Formula One cars are not allowed in NASCAR, kitefoilers are not allowed in regattas for small catamarans, geared bicycles are not allowed at the single speed cycling worlds, and why cars are not allowed in motorcycle events. EVERY sporting discipline runs its own specialist events, just as there are specialist events in almost every form of human activity, such as music, the visual arts, and professions. Another significant fact is that multis don't become popular even when they are allowed into major events - look at the small proportion of multis that do the Fastnet despite the proximity to the French pro scene. There are very, very few local offshore racing multis in the UK or USA despite the fact that multis have been allowed in the Fastnet and Transpac. In fact, multihull offshore numbers have been going BACKWARDS since they were allowed in the major events. It's clearly not working for offshore multis in particular and for offshore sailing in general. The only reason to complain about the monos not being allowed to do what EVERY other sporting discipline does (have its own specialist events just as multis do) is prejudice.
I think it's perfectly fine for there to be monohull-specific events but then they should just say that's what they want, rather than arguing that multihulls are unsuitable for the event. I think the decline in multihull numbers is based partly on the fact that they are less convenient to store because they don't fit into traditional slips like monohulls.
@@autonomous_collective Yes it’s their prerogative! They also have a fairly active amateur multihull sailing scene, and what appears to be an excellent multihull rating system, so at the same time it’s unfortunate that they are disenfranchising some of their own sailors.
@@SailingTipsCa Yep. Its a good thing no sailor really cares about line honors. But its pretty annoying that a 34 footer cant run the tine 40 hp yanmar pretty much at all... and the big boat gets to run a 200 hp motor the whole way
All the local boats would lose their sponsorship, AU can build fast multis, one of the Sodebo tris was built on the central coast. The CYC are too lame and ignorant to allow multis, a decent 12 meter tri would walk all over Comanche. Cost 1/4 and be faster on every point of sail. Sean Langman did have a 18 meter Tri and won every race he entered in AU. French boat.
Yes there are some pretty cool AUS multis like the Grainger 12.8m Venom amongst others. Multis are definitely much less expensive for the performance than monos and you can get by with far fewer crew, so a much simpler program overall. Some good AUS multi sailors too!
Not 100% sure on the premise. IMOCA 60's are allowed to race in the Sydney Hobart and that division abroad is totally dominated by Europeans but gets usually gets little in the hobart race. Also, International monohulls have always been a regular appearances in the hobart race. Ondine(s), Kialoa(s), Condor(s), Sayona, Morning Glory, Nicorette, a couple of Scandinavian Volvo 60's and most importantly Comanche, are or were all non pacific entries that dominated the race on more than one occasion. While money certainly has some consideration, I think the main reason is that the CYC prides itself on safety and has always erred on the more cautious side of things, in regards to regulations, safety and development. Powered winches, water ballast, canting keels were all initially and not that long ago, banned due to safety concerns. A foiling (or non foiling for that matter) tri or cat is probably more of a risk than the CYC want to take on at this time.
For this year's Sydney Hobart I believe Comanche was chartered by Australian appliance mogul John Winning Jr, so technically an Australian boat. The previous time Comanche did the Sydney Hobart in 2019 she was owned by Jim Cooney and Samantha Grant, also Australian, no? Most of the IMOCAs are based in Europe, so delivering the fleet to Australia for what is a relatively short race for them may just not be worth it, especially when they have lots of major events closer to home. The Ultime trimarans are typically set up for Category 0 racing (e.g. Southern Ocean) which exceeds the Category 1 safety requirements of the Sydney Hobart, however they may also not be interested for the same reason as the IMOCAS. According to the Australian Offshore Multihull Rating (OMR) Specification most of the local multihulls are smaller Grainger or Farrier designs that generally wouldn't qualify for Category 1 racing without significant modifications and/or carrying payloads that would significantly blunt their performance.
@Sailing Tips Good points you put forward there, and I see your point on Comanche ownership. I suppose the point I was trying to make is that the race has always been pushed forward by foreign entries and then Australian yachting comes back to match and exceed the international challenger. Comanche is probably the only international boat that has been bought by an Australian syndicate with the view to win the race, after it had seen success, built and raced by another country. That said, Morning Glory (another foreign boat) was the first boat to beat the race record in 21 years and it was also the first Reichel Pugh design to win. Since then RP designs have practically dominated the race (all of which are Australian or Kiwi boats), with the exception of Comanche, which wasn't originaly Australian, Kiwi or RP. As for the 'safety' comment I made, it isn't relating to Catagory ratings as defined by MCA etc, it is about the types of boats, technologies and crewing requirements that the CYC see as being safe and tested enough. For example there are many cat 0 yachts that are solo capable, some can race in the hobart race (IMOCA comes to mind) but the limiting factor in this case is crew requirements (solo is still not permitted in the hobart race). Canting keels had Cat 0 clearance back in the day but were banned by the CYC until they were satisfied that the technology was safe enough. There were some monumental failures of early canting keel designs (early Farr yachts come to mind), and the CYC just didnt want to take the risk. Further on reflection though I think you may be correct about the CYC trying to protect Australian sailing interests to a degree. If the race were overcome by international multihulls, the race would die off fairly quickly I think, and that would be a darn shame. If Alex Thompson's hugo boss raced, well that may be the change we all could get behind, and could have lasting impacts on the boats that contend the race from that point.
@@paulgrimmond6351 Thanks so much for your thoughts! It’s definitely interesting to contemplate their reasoning. As for some arguments people have made about it being a “classic” race, I wonder how those people might speak to the allowed use of powered winches, which aren’t “classic” in my mind, nor universally acceptable in racing circles. As such it’s almost like the Sidney Hobart has established it’s own class of dominant boats!
@Sailing Tips Great discussion, thanks! It is interesting to contemplate the CYC's reasoning on why they align the rules like they do. The thing I forgot to bring up on the safety front is that multihulls can't self right in the event of a capsize. Therefore requiring rescue. When Bass Strait gets nasty, it gets nasty fast. The 1987 and especially 1998 race come to mind. Interesting you bring up powered winches as they were also banned in the mid 2000's! I look forward to your next video on the race!
How about because it was conceived in and has been organized since by the CYC, the CRUISING yacht club. I could win the Melbourne cup on a trail bike but they won't let me enter a "horse race" on anything but a horse, go figure? Lastly the was a great yachting competition once... J Class boats it was the panicle of yacht racing for over 125 years. It was reported on the news, people watched it and were interested, you may have even heard of it, it was known as the "America's Cup". Haven't heard of it for a while, I believe they changed to multi-hulls.
Multihulls are pretty common in the cruising world as well, although I'm not sure a cruising multihull is a good choice for this race, or any race for that matter! Do the organizers see Comanche and the other super-maxis as a cruising boats? The America's cup did sail multihulls for a while but have been back to monohulls for the last couple of editions.
It's the one yacht race the Aussies are guaranteed to win because they can't win anything else !! The best Aussie sailors come and sail for NZ in the Americas Cup and as a Kiwi we know just how good they are, hope Aussie learns that some day and has the balls to rock up and do what they did all those years ago and give the AC a crack !! Might even surprise yourselves.
Sydney to Hobart is one of the few races that Run North to South crossing latitudes and this often brings different weather systems into play. With the EAC running down the coast north to south and the often strong counter Southerly winds, can cause very large backless waves to form. This causes a huge amount of pounding into heavy seas dropping of the back of large waves. Not a place to be in a multihull yacht.
@@SailingTipsCa S2H experiences the effects of East aust current running south and waves from south causing steep waves with no backs that can cause severe structural problems when boats can drop 10ft or more. M2H experiences more westerly swells and the waves ae not as extreme. Mind you having done both races a few times, the West coast of tassy gets very tough at times. Hope that helps you understand a bit more. Cats are better at reaching and monos are better at beating into the breeze.
I believe this is factually wrong, Bass Strait is one of the roughest stretches of water in the world with rogue wave at shallow opposing front exceeding 10m in height at a very close pitch that could tip a cat or trimaran. They aren’t allowed because they can’t self-right.
Yes the Bass Strait can be a very nasty piece of ocean and multihulls cannot self right. At the same time the ULTIME maxi trimarans are not as prone to capsize as other classes, including IDEC Sport which holds the world record for a global circumnavigation via the Southern Ocean and sailed right past the South East Cape of Tasmania while doing so, covering more than 800 nautical miles per day for 10 consecutive days. Have any of the current suite of maxi yachts that frequent the Sydney Hobart done a circumnavigation?
I've not done the Sydney Hobart yet, but it is legendary rough across the shallow straight. A tri was dismasted during the last Newport Bermuda race. I was out for that race. It wasn't THAT rough. Trimarans might be a safety concern as well.
World Sailing has Offshore Safety Regulations for both monohulls and multihulls for all waters covering the globe: www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WSOffshoreSpecialRegulations20222023v2-[27823].pdf The Category 0 multihulls sail pretty much the same course around the world as the Vendee Globe monohulls, including through the Southern Ocean, so I think it would be a matter of ensuring the right safety regulations are in place.
@@yzScott Category 0 is the most stringent category defined as “Trans-oceanic races, including races which pass through areas in which air or sea temperatures are likely to be less than 5°C (41°F) other than temporarily, where boats must be completely self-sufficient for very extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance”
I'm OK with only monos in the Syd to Hob. Not sure why people want the multies to race in the event for- tradition should mean something. I don't think they allow multies in the Melb to Hob "Westcoaster" either. Perhaps a separate race for the multies, Hob to Syd starting the day after new years day?
It could be moot as I’m not sure the fast European multis would bother making the long delivery to Aus, whereby the Fastnet, which also previously didn’t allow multis, is right in their back yard.
Yep .My comment has not aged well. Picadillo who currently is in 2nd won line honors last year. My wife and I was lucky enough to get a tour of her a couple of years ago. First time I'd been on a forward cockpit cat.
"tradition" is another perfectly plausible reason. multihills are amazing, but monohulls are beautiful in a way multihulls are not. and if multihulls then someone will say 'what about foiling boats?'. anycase, i daresay there is much truth in the idea of wanting to keep it largely and aussie event.
Yes “tradition” would be a perfectly plausible reason! Some of the boats look like Swiss Army Knives with all the appendages so I’m sure there are already some who are pushing the boundaries on what is allowed regarding partially lifting foils.
1.Mono hull yacht club 2. Handicap for trophy is monohull rating system. 3. Only variable reason, yet valid. Safety. Capsize and conditions of multi mass fleet too high. TH-camrs😅
They use two different handicapping systems for monohulls in the race so do you know how they reconcile them? Also the Melbourne to Hobart was the day after the Sydney to Hobart and there were three multihulls in that and all somehow survived!
Ocean racing would be far more interesting, and produce healthier boats that contribute more to yacht design, if there were a cargo requirement. This could also help even out the multi/mono divide. Race entries are to be weighed on a travel lift. Just before the race the cargo is announced, loaded, and secured. Cargo is apportioned as a percentage of boat mass. The exact cargo makeup and % of mass is not known ahead of time. It is randomly generated from allowable ranges just before loading. It is always a mix chosen from predetermined forms simulating traditional cargo: long lumber, cylindrical barrels of dense liquid, low density 1 meter cubes, burlap sacks of grain, ???. The cargo has sensors to measure "damage" like shock, dryness, compression, tampering, depending on cargo type. Crew and powered automation are more tightly regulated than dimensions or rig. All sail area on board is counted in handicap. What gets produced are hopefully designs which could haul an interior, and cruising stores, while still being fast, rugged, and flexible in trim. Rigs with a little extra power and flexibility that don't require as large a crew, and require fewer large sail changes.
Have you ever been on a 40' offshore race boat?? What with crew and sails, and the ability to move SAFELY around the boat, there is no room for "extra shit!"
@@7divad37 That's exactly the point. All the current classes [that aren't just written around an existing vintage fleet] produce designs that favor a substantial crew to operate, but aren't great at carrying shit. A class that encourages designs that accommodate short handed operation and carrying shit would be refreshing. It would broaden marketability and variety in cruising designs if people saw these boats can beat ULD designs if flexible load, space, and passage making requirements are added to the equation.
The real reason is ego. Mulithulls would make the monster useless mono hulls look slow and the Biggus Dickus mentality in todays world would not allow that.
because there is more loss of life at sea with multi hulls than Any other design . I'm a lifelong boat builder and I know. multi hulls can't handle bass Strait
Yes the inability for a multihull to self-right itself is definitely a downside! Fortunately the ULTIME maxi trimarans like IDEC Sport don’t capsize very often, and many have broken global circumnavigation records in the Southern Ocean, sailing right past Tasmania in the process.
Sorry to rain on your parade, Team Australia did the journey in absolute dream conditions. I have crossed Bass Strait multiple times and can tell you 95% of the time conditions range from Bad to the downright ugly all the way to the conditions that occurred during the 1978 Fastnet Race. Modern multihulls are not strong enough to withstand those sorts of conditions. Imagine sitting on a wave where your outriggers are on the crest of a wave with the main hull suspended 20 feet or more above the trough. This is a safety issue first and only.
The outboard floats (amas) of a modern racing trimaran are typically designed with flotation equal to 2-3 times the weight of the entire boat, and the beams (akas) are designed to withstanding righting moment forces of 10 times the weight of the boat or more. This enables sailing on the leeward float alone, with the main hull and windward float entirely out of the water, so having the main hull out of the water is not only not a problem, it's rather normal. That said, there is a substantially increased risk of capsize/pitchpole in the conditions you describe, therefore racing a multihull in the ocean requires a different mindset than racing a monohull: With a monohull the crew is typically asking themselves "How do we make this boat go as fast as possible in these conditions?" pretty much all the time (except survival conditions). With the multihull the crew is typically asking themselves "How fast is it safe to go in these conditions?". In other words, the safety of a multihull is much more dependant on the decisions and actions of the crew than a monohull. Multihull crews must also take sea state into account much more than monohull crews, both with the speed and direction of the boat. A diligent multihull crew will slow the boat substantially in the difficult conditions you describe, and also steer the boat much more in accordance with the sea state, even if it means going in the wrong direction.
@@SailingTipsCa I have built many types of boats and although they may have the structural integrity you describe the race is for irc and ior rated yachts. As for pitch polling and capsize ability in anything than absolute ideal conditions most multi hulls wouldn't make the offshore mark without some kind of major incident. Personally having sailed around Australia multiple times I would suggest multi hulls should stay north of Newcastle and the tropics where sea states are more favourable
@@navcenter77 Probably not a good idea for these Jules Verne Trophy multis to be playing around in the Southern Ocean then!!! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Verne_Trophy
@@SailingTipsCa Personally I wouldn't take them outside the Mediterranean, but that's just me. Fundamental Rule A "It is a skippers responsibility whether to start or finish a race" In other words the skipper has legal responsibility other the health and safety of the crew and vessel.
@@navcenter77 You’re absolutely right about the skipper’s responsibility for the health and safety of the crew and vessel Thanks for all your comments!!!
Multi hulls destroyed the Americas Cup Race, it was great to follow even when Australia lost and the yanks cheated today it’s a shit race, is it still run ?
A typical argument is that multihulls are not allowed in the Sydney Hobart for reasons related to safety, and in particular that multihulls typically cannot right themselves once inverted. At the same time several maxi trimarans have successfully broken global circumnavigation records, and in doing so have sailed right past the South East Cape of Tasmania, including IDEC Sport which managed 10 consecutive days above 800 nautical miles in the Southern Ocean.
These maxi trimarans must meet World Sailing Offshore Special Regulations for Category 0 trans-oceanic races (www.sailing.org/inside-world-sailing/rules-regulations/offshore-special-regulations/) "which pass through areas in which air or sea temperatures are likely to be less than 5°C (41°F) other than temporarily, where boats must be completely self-sufficient for very extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance."
The Sidney Hobart does not use the World Sailing Offshore Special Regulations but instead uses the Australian Sailing Special Regulations (cdn.revolutionise.com.au/site/uoa1gvknbxk0adjq.pdf) which are similar but have a few differences. The Sydney Hobart is a Category 1 race which includes "offshore races of long distance and well offshore, where boats must be self-sufficient for extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance." There is no Category 0 for trans-oceanic races in the Australia Sailing Special Regulations.
In any case it is interesting and perhaps even ironic that even multihulls that are deemed safe enough to circumnavigate the globe in the Southern Ocean are not seen as safe enough to compete in the Sidney Hobart per this argument.
It’s laughable that multis aren’t allowed, especially with the ridiculous argument that they “can’t right themselves”.
You’re 100% correct in your reasoning, and typical of Australia to kiss the a**es of their sponsors.
@@SailingTipsCa All your comments are right.Though there is not many production cats I would like to take on S2H or M2H
@ Yes I think there are only a handful of production multis that would be suitable - most which could do it safely are custom builds.
@@SailingTipsCaI mean a Neel could do it safely, but would you want to? An Outremer for sure, maybe a HH and definitely a Gunboat.
It’s just the old-money establishment in Aus up to their usual antics who are stopping it…
@@SailingTipsCa . Is the implication that the leading mono hulls are 'production boats ? Is there any stipulation against custom builds ?
I'll always prefer to take my chances to be wrong way up on the surface than to be right way up on the bottom .
Yes, I'm a long time multi hull cruiser. Travel faster -- travel flat ! ✌
Shaun Langman’s Team Australia, a French built 60 foot trimaran holds the outright record for the Sydney to Hobart. Shaun also owns and sails the oldest and shortest yacht In the race. His son raced it this year. Shaun has partitioned the SCYC to allow him to race his tri in a seperate class of course. Australia has a great history of multihulls designers like the late Lock Crowther. Your comments are spot on. It’s about money.
There are some great Australian multihull skippers too like Jimmy Spithill - wouldn’t it be cool if he could race an Australian boat in the Sydney Hobart instead of (or in addition to) racing multihulls in other countries! And the amateur multihull scene seems quite evolved and active with their OMR rating system, which seems much better than the multihull rating system we use here!
As someone who took part in the first multi regatta held at a major Sydney club and raced offshore multis I'd say it's certainly not about money - multihull owners just don't turn up in significant numbers outside of the French pros. Even when multis are welcomed into the major events they still don't turn up decades later. Multis had much bigger numbers racing offshore when they had their own events like the Multihull Transpac, Multihull Bermuda, and Crystal Trophy. These are simple facts, just as it's a fact that racing multis now form a smaller proportion of rthe racing fleet in many major events like the UK Round The Island Race than they did decades ago. So clearly, mixing multis in with monos is NOT helping multis and therefore we should consider abandoning the idea. After all, the concept that a sporting discipline like mono racing should not have its own specialist major events is ludicrous - no other sport demands that all disciplines be allowed in major events. Car racing doesn't mix F1 cars into the NASCAR series, cars don't race with motorcycles, long surfboards don't compete in the same event as short surfboards, recumbent bicycles don't do the Tour de France, archery competitions don't allow guns, beach cat events don't welcome windsurfers and kitefoilers - the list is endless.
Start the multihulls the next day. Would be exciting to see them catching and passing the fleet.
Now you’re just rubbing it in! ;-)
This would be awesome, give them a realistic handicap so that they can race
April, 1992: Fred Gan’s F-31 OSTAC TRIUMPH wins the bi-annual Australian Offshore Multihull Championships. In the associated Brisbane to Gladstone Ocean Race, BOBSLED, a 67 foot million dollar racing monohull, made headlines in breaking the monohull record by an impressive hour and a half. The trailerable F-31 (a family cruiser) had caught and passed BOBSLED finishing an hour and fifteen minutes ahead!
Ostac Triumph
Bobsled - somewhat larger and a lot more expensive
This may also be what they are worried about - relatively low-budget multihull campaigns embarrassing high-budget monos!
I recall similar in the Round Island, Isle of Wight, race.
A big IOR style mono, skippered by a pop star, got the course record and made UK press headlines…they somehow forgot to mention that Thaly were beaten by a Firebird catamaran…all of 26’
@@markthomasson5077 So what? The clear performance facts indicate that a kitefoiler would win the biggest beach cat races, a good amateur on a streamlined recumbent bicycle would beat the Tour de France pros a lot of the time, a motorbike may beat the top cars in the BTCC, an average SUP surfer could beat the world's top pro surfers on shortboard in some conditions, and so it goes. There's no point in crowing when one type of equipment beats another type of equipment since it's so obvious that in other sports no one even bothers. Kitefoilers normally beat A Class cats and Moths hollow but the A Class and Moth guys don't care nor do they allow the kites to race. BTW I'm a multi owner whose family has been into multis for four generations.
@@ChrisThompson-dh7mv i kite foiled in the IOW race…now there’s a thing I would like to see!
Multihulls were allowed in this year's Melbourne to Hobart, which sails down the West Coast of Tasmania and is arguably a more dangerous race than the Sydney to Hobart. There were only 3 multihulls, each around 50 feet long (so much slower than the big multis), and they were placed 1st, 2nd and 4th on scratch. At least this means there is a race now that can demonstrate that multis can be safe in the southern oceans (although, as you point out, this has already been proven by round the world boats).
That was my thought also. Some commented on the potential sea state on the east coast of Australia south of Sydney as being particularly nasty in certain conditions due to interactions between currents and prevailing swell.
make it interesting. new type of race. you must move a full size, fully loaded shipping container.
That would definitely be an interesting race! Would you have to build the boat onsite in a finite timeframe before the race?
@@SailingTipsCa just a different class of race. Steel hull. Mono, tri. Whatever. Wing or kite etc. Get the goods there.
@@Milesobrian I like it - a practical application!!!
A shipping container, can hold a lot of weight.. so thats a very "open" matter on its own. Shipping containers come in quite a few sizes also, not to mention shapes. I see a headache in formulating the rule book :d. Multi's Should formulate their own race.. not join the Lawyereed up debaclle that is the Multi's of today. Rule #1.. No lawyers. Rule #2. race with good intent and a pure heart.. after that. go hard. lols.
@@SailingTipsCacut the ends off, bash a V in the bottom and weld the ends together. The shipping container has now become a hull.
😂 disclosure - I’m in Darwin the home of the Beer Can Regatta. We can and do make boats out of anything.
Well… create a mid winter race from Sydney to Hobart for multi hills. Brilliant!
And call it the S2H2!!!
What's stopping you?
@@petewitt2867 I live on the other side of the world so might be more convenient for somebody local to do it…
Multihull Brisbane to Hobart
The organizers of the Sydney-Hobart race have an important and historical asset to maintain and enhance, the reputation of the race itself. If they choose to exclude multis or any other type for the benefit of the race then so be it. That the race is supported, even dominated by Australian yachts is a good thing not a bad thing.
If they want to preserve history and tradition I think that’s perfectly fine and they could just be frank about that!
All the big monos are just fancy motor sailers these days.
How much diesel to get to Hobart?
Yes many of them have to run their engines for the entire race to power the hydraulics to operate the boat!
don't tell the "Just Stop Oil Crowd"@@SailingTipsCa
@@sheldonmcclaflin8904 I guess they could use fuel cells to create electricity instead…
A cat called Oli contested the race this year i think he and his crew finished last several days after the winning team but was still greeted by a small crowd at the finish line some of them with gifts.
LOL yes congrats to Oli being the first cat to finish!
I don’t think it’s about sponsorship. It predates the sponsorship era. I think it’s just about the well off owners of expensive monohulls not wanting to be shown up by multis. There has always been a class divide
I think some monohull sailors do find it embarrassing to be shown up by smaller/cheaper multis.
multi hulls are like snow boarders .I like that there is a race with out .Just like a ski hill with out snow board sliders.😅
LOL that’s an interesting analogy!
Except skis are faster than snowboarders
Iirc in the 1890s, people started building fin keel boats. The establishment then redrew the handicap rules to punish fin keels, which promptly went out of fashion.
The rules are made by the establishment in their interest.
Human nature tends to attach a certain amount of “inertia” to the status quo!
I think the multihull vs monohull debatewrt Sydney-to-Hobart is a bit of a precursor to the real one that will be "when do foilers join the game?". At speed, the tri is just a beefy support structure for a wide foil. Which could be done on a mono - it just starts to look like a tri.
movable daggerboards were an easier fitout to the big 100s, but fully flying hulls changes the game - whether it is on a mono or a tri. Imagine Comanche or WIld Oats with foils, flying the hull.
I wonder what would happen if a foiling IMOCA showed up?
Is it a situation of apples and oranges ? cf allowing men to compete in women's category of track and field athletics ?
I would expect there to be a separate multihull division as they do at Fastnet and other races…
@@SailingTipsCa So would I, it would certainly be a more interesting spectacle !
They do however race in the Brisbane to Gladstone in a separate division and also Hamilton Island Race Week :)
Yes, and multihulls are increasingly being invited to other events as well, with the race organizers creating separate divisions providing enough multis show up.
6 out of 10 qualifying regattas list in the NOR's that you must complete prior to entering the SHYR allows multihulls in their regattas the other 4 forbid multihulls to enter as they are strictly monohulls.
They are allowed in the Melbourne to Hobart as well. Which not only crosses the Bass Straight as well but goes down the West Coast which is quite often a lot wilder than the East
This really make me wish there was more non french multi hulls in the ultim 23 32 class, i do like that my cpuntry produce the most perfoming sailboat of the world but it would be nice to see a bit more competition
I wonder if the class rules themselves have anything to do with that? I believe it’s under the French Sailing Federation…
@@SailingTipsCa Everybody is free to enter the Ultim Class as in any other Class: Ocean 50, Class 40, Mini 6.50, Imoca,...
@@NICOLAS25478 Good to know! I understand that culturally there’s quite a bit of sponsorship money in France for this type of thing and possibly a bit less in other places which might also be part of the issue.
@@SailingTipsCa Where is the problem? You just need to comply to the class rules as in every class. Guillaume Verdier (VPLP) the designer of Gitana and Idec Sport worked for Team New Zeland. For a European, New Zealand is literaly the other side of the world. So its up to the nations (USA, AUS, NZ,...) to build and come and compete, or not. Look at Cole Brauer (USA) she entered the Class 40 and now she is with Malizia (Imoca). Also Charlie Enright (USA) raced succesfully the Volvo Ocean in an Imoca but left the class now, as far as i know. And so many others great sailors sailing the Volvo Ocean race for example. The thing is that every region of the world has its own specific classes, its own races, its own evolutions, its own establishments,... FYI, I live in Belgium.
@@SailingTipsCa Talking about sponsorship, it is not that easy as you might think. Professional sailors (in France for example) are also professional sponsor seakers. They are even trained for that to create a company around their sailing/racing activity to generate a business with their preparation team that also has to be payed with a real employements throughout the project and the sposorship.
I think like many who have commented though including yourself, while certainly multihulls are of course faster under most circumstances than even the big 100 ft monohulls, there is another and important factor in respect of the S2H, and that is about tradition. The S2H is about monohulls, it always has been and the organisers are keenly aware of this. That by keeping it restricted it respects the history of the race. It’s all too easy to say it’s about the money/sponsorship and that most if not all such fast multihulls come out of Europe. The argument against this of course is that over the race’s history competitors from around the world and their boat designs have been widely varied and won the race, not just Australians. The other factor that is missing in this discussion is that to most sailors the real prize isn’t line honours but rather to win the race on handicap. If one was to introduce fast multihulls this potentially could diminish the likelihood of smaller and/or even older monohulls from ever have the chance to win the race on handicap, and so hence might result in increasingly smaller fleets bothering to enter.
So, in summary, personally I am glad the race is restricted to monohulls and I just wish more focus wasn’t just on the big gun boats and line honours but rather that the media payed more attention to the handicap winning boats for in reality it’s these boats that make up the majority of the fleet and have always done so.
Tradition is a perfectly sound reason! I also agree there’s too much focus on line honours and it would be nice for the handicap winners to get some more accolades as they are generally out there suffering for longer!
Too true re the smaller boats being out there for much longer. My own boat, 1974 Swanson 30 (Mulberry) did 6 S2Hs let alone a myriad of other offshore races, and while never placed that high in the results she did represent the spirit of the race. Amateurs entering and competing for the enjoyment of taking up the challenge.
@@1240enzo Just finishing some longer races is a huge accomplishment for an amateur crew!!!
Thanks for an intelligent response. I've done a few Hobarts, normally on 30 footers by personal preference, and also race and own multis. The monos have every right to have their own events, just as every other type of sporting equipment gets to run its own events. People who complain about the Hobart being just for monos are complete hypocrites because they don't complain about motorcyclists, touring cars, skiers, multihullers, kitefoilers, dinghy sailors, users of standard bicycles, archers, surfers and all other sportspeople running their own specialist events just like mono sailors do.
@@ChrisThompson-dh7mv I think if they want to have a monohull-only event then that’s perfectly reasonable, but then they should just say that’s what they want and such advocates should stop saying things like “multihulls aren’t suitable” in order to somehow make the case!
Shaun had a 60ft tri ready as did Vodaphone, there have been a few large Crowthers ready. Scallywag racing has a tri ready as well as a few large Schionings and French Outremers. S2H has become a protect obsecure group of insular minority preventing the best sailing to be displayed. If you want spectacular go multihull like GP sailing coming to Sydney in Feb.
So they’re waiting in the wings! Yes SailGP is a great spectacle, and an excellent display of what can be done on the bleeding edge of sailing!
Bullshit. It's ridiculous to claim that mono yachts, which have by far the most sailors of any type in Australia are a minority. Nor are they any more insular than shorthanded sailors who don't allow fully crewed boats to race, multi sailors who don't allow Moths and kitefoils into their regattas, motorcyclists who don't allow cars into motorcycle racers, skiers who don't allow snowboarders into ski events. EVERY sporting discipline is allowed its own specialist events and the only time people complain about it is when monos do just what multihulls do, and run their own events. By the way, I've done a bunch of Hobarts, raced shorthanded offshore multis, and have two multis.
The Fastnet takes places off the waters of the UK, Framce and IRELAND!! :-) Love the vids.
Yes of course - my bad! Glad you still like the videos!
Remember sir Peter Blake 's trimaran steinlager 1 in the round Australia race somewhere in 1986- 1988. Unbeatable speeds....
Yes way ahead of its time!!!
If they allowed multihulls, the race would be over in 24 hours or less, then everyone would switch off the telly and go to the pub. Event sponsors would get less time to promote their goods and services. They could always make the multihulls do a round trip. Sydney, then leave Tasmania to starboard and back to Sydney. Speaking of Trimarans. How long is the bowsprit on your F82? Is it in a tube or is it hinged at the bow? What is your opinion on those 2 different methods of mounting a bowsprit?
Thanks
Glenn
Yes you’re right there is definitely an advantage from an advertising/sponsor perspective to have the race last a bit longer, and they could get multihulls to do a round trip!
The bowsprit on our F-82R is about 6’ / 180cm and it is hinged at the bow with fixed whisker stays and an adjustable bobstay to enable folding. The tube mounted variety can eliminate the need for whisker stays and sometimes even the bobstay, with the disadvantage that the tip is less accessible from the boat for maintenance (e.g. to service blocks/furlers) the tube is a common source of water ingress into the main hull, and it uses quite a bit of space inside the main hull when retracted, so I have a slight preference for the folding variety.
Thanks, I’ve got lots of time before I have to decide which system I build on the Avalon 8.2.
@@glenn5ft19 If you decide to go folding a really cool way to do it is to use a Forespar toggle and socket on the bow (like a large monohull would use on the mast for a traditional spinnaker pole) which allows you to articulate the pole under load in any direction by adjusting the whisker and bob stays. Good luck with your build!
it is getting a bit boring local competition for rich old Aussies, missing modern fast monohulls like Imoca, multihulls etc.
The Fastnet didn’t used to allow multis either but they haven’t detracted from the race in any way IMHO!
indeed. much better to have rich old foreign men
@@alexanderSydneyOz Thats cos you think the race is about line honors. It aint. Its about the handicap winner. Midnight Rambler won in 98 Some rich yank plonker was in a hotel room in Hobart whinging about how dangerous the race was when Rambler arrived... but I don't remember the name of his boat. Neither does any other sailor, We won the Mornington cup ( a significant but local Port Phillip Bay race) in Minna last year although some bloke with a faster boat got there first
It depends what aspect of sailor you wish to promote. The narrator does not, for example, tell viewers that the race is conducted by the CRUISING Yacht Club of Australia.
Despite being hosted by CYCA there is still a strong emphasis on sailing from Sydney to Hobart as fast as possible per the number of fully custom super-maxis that participate and are hardly “cruising” boats!!!
@@SailingTipsCa wasn't the response the last time this came up something along the lines of "We are a monohull club"??
I have a F9-AX Trimaran, it is the "Cruising" wide body version of the racing F-9 Trimaran ...why cant I enter the S2H ?
@@Scan2Model There’s an F9 that regularly races from South Africa to St. Helena and does quite well!
As someone that has done 5 Hobart's, I really hope they don't ever allow multihulls. I have nothing against them, but a lot of the appeal of the Hobart is that it still feels like a traditional race. I like up next to boats like Comanche and they just look like a bigger faster version of us. You get that with multihulls. These big offshore, foiling multis are so far removed from anything else it takes away from the competitive feel of the race.
I also don't really know how they handicap them. You talk exclusively about line honours which is what the media focuses on, but the actual race is an IRC race. Can you fairly handicap a trimaran to a 34 ft monohull?
I guess pacific voyaging outrigger sailing vessels are pre traditional... In the European sailing tradition.. :)
Just like monohulls there are both box rules and handicap rating systems for multihulls. Most of the monohulls in the Fastnet also race handicapped under IRC, and I believe this is where the “overall” trophy is awarded, but there are also box rule classes for Class 40 and IMOCA 60. Similarly, multihulls have a handicapped MOCRA division and an unlimited division, which is pretty much the Ultime class trimarans. So they don’t really have a way of rating a 35 foot monohull against an Ultime foiling trimaran and it still seems to go okay.
You are spot on - there is a time and place for everything. Multi's have their places. The Sydney 2 Hobart is not their place. By the way I love Multi's and there are plenty of other races around Australia that they compete in! If people are so keen on Multi's, why don't they do a Brisbane to Hobart Race on the same dates! All finishing together!
Well said 👍
The answer to the question is simple: it’s another example of the golden rule, ie people with the gold make the rules. The Sydney-Hobart race did once allow multihulls, and the result was that sail boats that cost less than half a leaner sail boat win. Then a multihull crashed into a whale at night at speed killing the whale and the crew was not recovered. This gave the moustache twirling epaulette wearing toffs the excuse to ban multihulls. It’s all about power and protecting investment, not about racing.
Interesting - I didn’t know that they did once allow multis but your story makes sense! Lots of people have cited safety concerns but the Melbourne-Hobart which ran a few days later does allow multis and they sail around the Southern tip of Tasmania.
@ The tri that has the fatalities was a lock Crowther Kraken 40’ with submersible outer hulls. A very fast boat in it’s time. I sailed a Crowther Buccaneer 33’ tri around the Sw Pacific in 1985 …also a quite fast boat…we averaged around 8 kts, top speed we saw was 28kts, & to windward 12 kts when the main hull would lift clear. I currently sail a Simpson 11m cruising catamaran which averages 7.5 kts…We’ve seen 14 kts…but really nothing like the Crowther tri.
@@markdunstone2922 The Buccaneer seems like a pretty solid boat and decent performer - that must have been terrifying at 28 knots though!!!
Please quote name of multihull and year it competed, Thanks.
@@7divad37 BRANDERSNATCH. Won Syd-Hobart 1966. I was wrong in that it hit a whale with loss of 4 crew sailing Melb-Sydney 1967.
For instance Hamilton Island; a major tourist spot, was a tv sponsor this year as well as having naming rights to a champion boat.
Yes looks like they sponsored Wild Oats!
Trying to get the multihulls out of Sydney Harbour in a North Easterly breeze would be a royal mess! This year's start was hairy enough with the Super Maxis
It definitely looked like there was some good super-maxi excitement at the windward mark!!!
In offshore sailing, if it's not a gigantic trimaran with at least one Frenchman onboard, it's not really that fast.
And the French really aren’t into Vegemite so there’s really no threat to the Australian monos!
The real question is why is "line honours" so damn important - we all know it means nothing in a mixed fleet.
I suppose if there are multiple boats competing for it they might think of it as a “division” of sorts…
because it completely removes the focus from the rest.
you can be a class winner in the Sydney To Hobart but you won't be in the news
Look up the history of the French multihulls in the 70s (Eric Tabarly, Olivier de Kersauzon), winning all the Pacific races but being snubbed by the all the local moguls that thought multihulls was just cheating and old money and class belong to monohulls.
To be fair, it's not unusual historically for multihulls to be snubbed, however many races that previously didn't allow them are now more welcoming, maybe in response to dwindling monohull fleets, maybe because they're suddenly "fashionable" due the America's Cup and SailGP?
It could also have something to do with the confined space during the start? Although I guess you could start them on another line
Some have suggested that as multihulls definitely take up more space in the harbour. Lots of races have multiple starts so that’s one way to solve it.
There are already multiple start lines in the SHYC for different sized boats.
@@tmuxor Back in the 2000 when a serious attempt at multihulls was floated, according to someone I know deepely involved it was vetoed by the Royal Tasmanian Yacht club as they wont have the room for the multihulls after the race. But we all know thats an excuse they want it wont by a monohull
So, you're saying it boils down to the age old question of _"how do we monetise that"?_ Somehow, I'm not surprised ;)
I think there’s some likelihood to that and interested in what others think!
As a multihull sailor, it is hard to give the huge budget, half boats the credit they desire. It is not that I don’t admire the grace and technology of them… it is the simple fact that all craft has a purpose. Multihulls are for speed.
I understand the old guard and the investment made by the owners of the huge maxi’s. it is hard, however, to give full credit to a race that only allows the half boats.
I understand we all have our views but it should be noted that we see it as a race of tall ships or couta boats. They are beautiful though 😊
Exactly - why would you pay all that money to go slow!!!
@@SailingTipsCa It isn't all about speed perhaps.
@@HeWoreSkeletons Not it can also be about camaraderie and just getting out for a good sail! P.S. I race both monohulls and multihulls!
I'd like to see an Imoka (the Vendee Globe vessels) those things are amazing. I can watch film of them blasting along for hours. They are olny 60ft it wouod be interesting to see how a 2 handed one would go agathe bigger super maxis
IMOCAs have sailed 640NM in 24 hours crewed and just over 600NM in 24 hours solo which are in fact the current monohull distance records so I think they’d likely take the super maxis!
There is a lesser publicised race called the Brisbane to Gladston that starts at Easter each year. There used to be multihulls in that race and they obviously would always win, there was an interesting period where there were some hot trimarans and depending on whether there was a tail or headwind, a cat or a tri would win. But they started trying to attract the big mono's, initially they tried staring the multi's further back so the mono's would be in front as they went past the crowds at Redcliffe, but that didn't work, so eventually the multi's were banned a while back. I don't believe there was ever an incident other than a mono getting hit by lightning, but I suspect it is more "fun" (aka, profitable) for organisers and politicians to hang out with wealthy maxi owning friends than a mid-level nobody who has a fast cat...
Wow I didn’t realize the Brisbane to Gladston no longer allowed multis! You certainly get more bang for your buck in terms of performance from a multi so if you’re trying to attract big-budget monos it makes sense to “allow” them to win…
Not true, Greg. The multis were never allowed in the mono Gladstone. In fact the offshore multis in Brisbane found they couldn't even sail with the existing club for small cats, which makes it rather odd when the fact that they didn't sail with the monos is blamed on prejudice. Every other popular form of sporting equipment gets to have its own events - why not monos? There is no reason at all for the B-G to have to invite multis - do you complain when the Qld "Supercars" event bans F1 cars and motorbikes? Do you feel that the major Australian small-cat event, the Wildcat, has to allow in Moths, 18 Foot Skiffs and kitefoilers? Do you feel that the World Surfing League's Qld round should have to allow in SUPs, foil surfing, Mals, boogie boards, kneelos, bodyboarders, surf kayaks and every other form of surfing? Does the shorthanded sailing scene now have to allow boats with 10 crew? If those events aren't criticised for not being more open, why should the offshore mono events be criticised? By the way I say this as a former Hobart racer, offshore shorthanded multihull racer, and multi owner who thinks that monos should be allowed to have their own events just as I can with my multi and when shorthanding.
@@ChrisThompson-dh7mv Okay so there’s more than one Brisbane to Gladstone event - one for monos and one for multis?
@@SailingTipsCa Nope, I'm not sure what Chris is rambling on about. So, multis where first invited in the BGYR in the 1960's and they raced every year. I have watched the fleet go past a family property almost every year for the last 20+ years and noticed they were being handicapped and then disappeared. I did miss last year's race, and in doing a bit of googling, noticed that they were invited back again as a one off for 2024.
"As discussed at MYCQ meetings over the last few months - the 2024 Brisbane to Gladstone Yacht Race will be a single event, run jointly by QCYC and MYCQ.
This reunites the monohull and multihull fleets after many years apart and should make for a better, bigger event for all participants, an easier event to organise and promote and a greater spectacle for audiences on and off the water."
I don't know the real reason the multis stopped getting invited.
On Chris' random statements about mixed fleets, I miss the old Bathurst 1000 when all the stock car classes raced together...
With Berthing so limited and expensive in Australian waters, large racing multihulls would be almost impossible to keep!
There is a decent multihull racing scene in Australia, so there’s room for them somewhere, but maybe Sydney Harbour is just too small for any more boats in this event? I know berthing limitations do limit some racing fleet sizes in other places.
Im sure they would find space for them.. Simply by pushing the prices up and the little 30-40 footers wouldnt be able to afford marina the marina space ;)
local owners would not be kept off the podium if they got their own multihulls if they were allowed. It's also good to see a race with traditional boats only
There are some excellent multihull sailors in Australia! Most of the boats themselves are quite a bit smaller than the French Ultime’s though…
@@SailingTipsCa that's easily fixed. They have the money
@@alanbstard4 Definitely lots of sponsorship money for the big monos in Sydney Hobart! It would be nice to see some Aussies challenge the French on the multihull ocean racing scene!
@@SailingTipsCa oh yeah 👍
I am sure these multi hulls designed to sail around the world could manage the Hobart, though 600 miles sitting right on the edge of the continental shelf, especially across Bass Strait would contain some nasty wave forms different from the southern ocean. My question is, where would they put them. The Marina’s around Hobart are not set up for them and why invest in docking space for a type of boat which is of relatively little interest to the sailing community to actually sail, and only might turn up for a couple of days a year.
That’s an excellent point that they do simply take up a LOT of space so logistics of accommodating them just may not be practical!
What if they made the S2H for multis take the same route as the M2H??
Like going all the way around the west side of Tasmania?
@@SailingTipsCa ya
You can still "Do a Hobart" on a multihull, by entering the Melbourne to Hobart Westcoaster, starting a day after the Sydney to Hobart. Last year 2024, a fleet of 20 started, of which, 3 were multihulls. Multis finished 1.3.4 across the line, 2nd was a Carkeek 43 mono.
@@7divad37 Yes that’s an interesting counter-example to the argument that “multihulls are unsuitable for these waters”
can get pretty rough across Bass Strait.
Yes it sounds like it can be a terrible place at times!
Because apparently it’s for cruising yachts like Comanche ? Wtf.
LOL and that run the engine for the entire race to power the winches!
Do the boats have to be Sloops?
I don’t believe so and ketches / yawls can also compete with two masts but still monohulls.
Ondine 3, 1974 S2H winner.. ketch.
When not too much partying in Hobart they can be back in Sydney for new years big fireworks
Exactly - and everybody can be back in their own comfy beds much sooner!
Sure - there are some wind-over-current conditions on the east coast that are tricky, but it is hard to argue they are worse than bass strait - shallow, big currents. I think if you look at the history of wrecks, then that south coast of Victoria has demonstrated it is treacherous. Then there are the big swells and conditions on the south west of Tasmania - potentially epic - and the lee shore risk of west Tasmania. So if multis can sail in the west coaster it is hard to preclude them from the Sydney to Hobart on safety grounds…
That’s what I would think! Plus the ULTIMEs sail past in the Southern Ocean on their way around the world!
Ever seen a 30 ft catamaran being flipped over by a 50 ft wave & 60 kt wind ? It doesn’t go well
I definitely would not take a 30 foot catamaran in the Sydney Hobart! Maybe a Seacart 30 but a larger trimaran would be better as they are generally better at handling snotty weather than catamarans.
to me we the French have a real expertise in multihull. It was Eric Tabarly the first to think that multihulls could have big benefits vs monohull so i can understand that some races are just open to monohull and national companies because of the money invested...even if it's not very fair and representative of the modern sailing...i think futur is multihulls (GP is a good exemple) and monohull scow (another French creation and expertise)
Yes in many ways the French are on another level with regard to offshore sailing in general!
@@SailingTipsCa thanks for that notice and bravo for your youtube channel!
Why would they allow? They are hardly short of boats or crew or viewers. If multi hull racers want to race that course they are welcome to it. The course is open year round. Go to it and enjoy. But leave this race alone.
Go race your own race. Theres plenty of water and wind. You don't need S2H to change their rules just for you. You arent special.
If the race is already well attended then that’s a good argument not to change anything! P.S. I race both monos and multis.
@SailingTipsCa exactly! It's not like the wind is only blowing in those few days after Christmas and the water dries up otherwise.
If multi-hulls want to race then go race. But leave us alone.
There race they make the rules. No problem in getting a field or sponsorship for the race as it is.
Yes that’s completely their prerogative and the race is already well-attended!
From a strenth perspective, how do multihulls hold up? It can get pretty nasty out there at this time of year. Maybe safety is a factor as well.
The main concerning factor with sailing a multihull in sporty conditions is that they can capsize and when they do are stable upside-down unlike keelboats which are somewhat self-righting.
Given five Ultimes just raced around the world via the three capes, plus multis regularly race across the North Atlantic, there’s no question about their “strength”.
It’s also been disproven time and time again that multis have a much higher righting moment than monos, and are no more prone to capsize.
@@PN_48 Yes numerous ULTIMES passing south of Tasmania on around the world trips is an interesting counter-example to the strength and safety arguments. The capsize resistance really depends on the specific multihull with some being more capsize-prone than others. For example I wouldn’t take a Reynolds 33 but a Seacart 30 would probably be fine, as those regularly do the Fastnet.
@@SailingTipsCaAgreed. Or an Ocean 50 - they already have the Pro Sailing Tour and have proven their safe in trans atlantics as well.
@@PN_48 Yes I think an Ocean 50 would be fine as well, as those also meet the safety regulations required to race across oceans (e.g. Route du Rhum).
Not only should multihulls not be allowed in the Hobart, but nor should vessels who’s systems require an engine to run 24/7 to power them, as do the current crop of 100 footers. Yep, sorry to burst your bubble but Comanche, Wild Oats XI, Blackjack, etc all need a 150 hp diesel engine running the whole time to power the winches and hydraulics that are used to trim the sails, canting keels and dagger boards etc. So essentially they’re motorboats. How is this sailing?
It is kind of ironic that the “traditionalists” who don’t want multis somehow turn a blind eye to the Diesel powered systems on monos! Lots of races require the use of human power for this stuff…
I didn't know that They had to run generators I thought the coffe grinders were for doing all that. So you would have to have few burly crew members there for their muscle.
@@nigelwallace4408 if you look closely, the coffee grinders end on the “pocket maxis” ie those up to about 75’.
It’s because the French will win . They are better at sailing faster further. Yeah sure it’s the money, but it’s also the culture and talent.
The Lorient ULTIME trimaran base in France is quite a ways away so they may not want to bother with such a long delivery either…
@@SailingTipsCa . So we build our own .
@@chrisknight9682 Some great multi designers, builders, and sailors in AUS!!!
The french do alright in the monohulls they sail in the Hobart, have a look at COCODY, a JPK 11.80 which SAILED here from France, and finished 8th o'alll in IRC and won her division by 17 hrs!! Also winner of 2 handed was combined aussie / french crew, on MISTRAL. winning their div by 10 hrs. The french do well down here...
Some people chucked a fit at the suggestion of double handers entering,we know why.I have a cat background from many moons ago( still have one) I remember the clubs that didn’t want them near their clubs.A lot of older farts than me would be spinning in their graves today.😂😂😂😂
It’s not unusual for people to be resistant to change!
Money and tradition at present, rolex will probably decide the future as the major sponsor.
Interestingly Rolex is also the major sponsor of Fastnet which allows multihulls!
In my opinion, the most obvious reasoning for not including multihulls is because the Sydney to Hobart race is focused on the line honours as far as the media coverage is concerned. If multihulls were to race in the same event, even with handicaped starts, the multhulls would dominate the line honours, and sponsorship would drift away from the monohull fleet. Once that happens, the bigger maxi yachts would start dropping out of the event. That would see the eventual demise of the race. I'm sure the event organisers would be rubbing the hands together at the thought of pulling in some more international sponsorship dollars, but at what cost eventually? Please forgive my cynicism, but the race has already become a huge media event, and as such, the coverage is primarily focused on the bigger boats and very little on the smaller boats and the camaraderie and dedication of the crews that race for the challenge! Only time will tell!
Yes the media fixation on line honours definitely drives sponsorships at that level, and unfortunately the smaller boats which make up the majority of the fleet don’t get nearly as much attention, despite being out there much longer and arguably working much harder to finish the race without their engines running the whole time to power winches and systems!
@SailingTipsCa Absolutely! It's a long, hard race, and most crew and skipper's pay for it out of their own pockets.
Also Sydney to Hobart doesn’t have the fastest ocean racers with the exception of Comanche. For example.. Volvo Imocas ocean 60 to 70 footers both dual and teamed crewed boats such as Boris Herrmann's Team Malizia …also it doesn’t have the big Euro boats such as 125 footer 'Skorpios…. I’d like to see more Euro and Ocean Imoca racing yachts in this otherwise a local sailing event ….
In fact Scorpios wouldn’t be allowed either as it exceeds the maximum length of 30.8m / 101 ft for fully crewed boats! It would definitely be cool to see some IMOCAs which have now surpassed Comanche with 24 hour distance records but being mostly based in Lorient France and a few in the UK they may not want to bother with the long delivery.
@ the ocean racing group could include the Sydney to Hobart as part of the Verne ocean race series…
its been a year
Yes and the next will be interesting too!
Personally I see Mono and Multi-hulls as two very different animals. Same a foils vs no foils. In other terms like matching Stock Cars with F1 cars. Totally different IMHO. Remember when Americas Cup racers were required to sail their 12 Meter boats from home port to defenders port in order to qualify for the race? That and when Dinosaurs roamed the earth.
Yes they are quite different - here’s a video I did on Why Are Trimarans So Fast?!?!? th-cam.com/video/GxdCcsAdOVM/w-d-xo.html And that’s not even getting into foils, rotating masts etc!
It is a bit of a joke that they don't allow multis, but they allow motor sailors like the maxis that need engines running constantly to run the hydraulic winches!!! It is also noteworthy that 3 Catamarans are racing in the Melbourne to Hobart, which of course sails across Bass Strait and down the west coast of Tasmania, which we call the "wild side" . In the Sydney to Hobart there is always a big deal about crossing Bass Strait but in reality they are sailing in the Tasman Sea....
Yes and several ULTIME trimarans have passed south of Tasmania on around-the-world record attempts starting and ending in France!
hit the nail on the head and Im glad they do. there would be no 100' in Australia!
Looking forward to the race start tomorrow!
Would multihulls be able to tack out of Sydney harbor safely?
All your points are valid though!
Good question! They have to tack up the Needles Channel for Fastnet although I’m not sure how that compares to Sydney Harbour…
As a multihull owner I'd say it's a silly question, just like asking why Formula One cars are not allowed in NASCAR, kitefoilers are not allowed in regattas for small catamarans, geared bicycles are not allowed at the single speed cycling worlds, and why cars are not allowed in motorcycle events. EVERY sporting discipline runs its own specialist events, just as there are specialist events in almost every form of human activity, such as music, the visual arts, and professions. Another significant fact is that multis don't become popular even when they are allowed into major events - look at the small proportion of multis that do the Fastnet despite the proximity to the French pro scene. There are very, very few local offshore racing multis in the UK or USA despite the fact that multis have been allowed in the Fastnet and Transpac. In fact, multihull offshore numbers have been going BACKWARDS since they were allowed in the major events. It's clearly not working for offshore multis in particular and for offshore sailing in general. The only reason to complain about the monos not being allowed to do what EVERY other sporting discipline does (have its own specialist events just as multis do) is prejudice.
I think it's perfectly fine for there to be monohull-specific events but then they should just say that's what they want, rather than arguing that multihulls are unsuitable for the event. I think the decline in multihull numbers is based partly on the fact that they are less convenient to store because they don't fit into traditional slips like monohulls.
You only have to look at what happened to the Americas Cup. It’s more about speed than the skill
Interesting thing about the America’s Cup is that the winner gets to decide the rules for next time!
I'm guessing because they'd destroy the competition, especially the maxi trimarans
Yes I think they absolutely would!
Smart.....
LOL thanks!!! I’m sure not everybody thinks so…
@@SailingTipsCa = Australia has to do what they got to do. Its their race. My hats of to them.
@@autonomous_collective Yes it’s their prerogative! They also have a fairly active amateur multihull sailing scene, and what appears to be an excellent multihull rating system, so at the same time it’s unfortunate that they are disenfranchising some of their own sailors.
Ian Farrier commented on why his boats weren’t allowed in many races.
Paraphrased “ because their fibreglass is arranged in a more efficient manner”
Those 100 foot mono motor-sailers are an embarrassment. The crew are basically just sail handlers.
Yes it's interesting that motor-powered hydraulics are allowed in an event that tries to portray itself as traditionally-oriented!
@@SailingTipsCa Yep. Its a good thing no sailor really cares about line honors. But its pretty annoying that a 34 footer cant run the tine 40 hp yanmar pretty much at all... and the big boat gets to run a 200 hp motor the whole way
@@davidthomas7678 I think the smaller boat sailors are the true heroes of this event particularly given they are out there for so much longer!!!
Keeping French out of australia is an Australian imperative
LOL then not allowing multis in the race is a sound strategy!!!
All the local boats would lose their sponsorship, AU can build fast multis, one of the Sodebo tris was built on the central coast. The CYC are too lame and ignorant to allow multis, a decent 12 meter tri would walk all over Comanche. Cost 1/4 and be faster on every point of sail. Sean Langman did have a 18 meter Tri and won every race he entered in AU. French boat.
Yes there are some pretty cool AUS multis like the Grainger 12.8m Venom amongst others. Multis are definitely much less expensive for the performance than monos and you can get by with far fewer crew, so a much simpler program overall. Some good AUS multi sailors too!
Monohulls can't invert themselves either... after the keel falls off, which happens a lot.
No unfortunately keel failures have become more common than they should be, and when they come off bad things happen very fast!!!
Not 100% sure on the premise. IMOCA 60's are allowed to race in the Sydney Hobart and that division abroad is totally dominated by Europeans but gets usually gets little in the hobart race.
Also, International monohulls have always been a regular appearances in the hobart race. Ondine(s), Kialoa(s), Condor(s), Sayona, Morning Glory, Nicorette, a couple of Scandinavian Volvo 60's and most importantly Comanche, are or were all non pacific entries that dominated the race on more than one occasion.
While money certainly has some consideration, I think the main reason is that the CYC prides itself on safety and has always erred on the more cautious side of things, in regards to regulations, safety and development.
Powered winches, water ballast, canting keels were all initially and not that long ago, banned due to safety concerns.
A foiling (or non foiling for that matter) tri or cat is probably more of a risk than the CYC want to take on at this time.
For this year's Sydney Hobart I believe Comanche was chartered by Australian appliance mogul John Winning Jr, so technically an Australian boat. The previous time Comanche did the Sydney Hobart in 2019 she was owned by Jim Cooney and Samantha Grant, also Australian, no?
Most of the IMOCAs are based in Europe, so delivering the fleet to Australia for what is a relatively short race for them may just not be worth it, especially when they have lots of major events closer to home.
The Ultime trimarans are typically set up for Category 0 racing (e.g. Southern Ocean) which exceeds the Category 1 safety requirements of the Sydney Hobart, however they may also not be interested for the same reason as the IMOCAS.
According to the Australian Offshore Multihull Rating (OMR) Specification most of the local multihulls are smaller Grainger or Farrier designs that generally wouldn't qualify for Category 1 racing without significant modifications and/or carrying payloads that would significantly blunt their performance.
@Sailing Tips
Good points you put forward there, and I see your point on Comanche ownership.
I suppose the point I was trying to make is that the race has always been pushed forward by foreign entries and then Australian yachting comes back to match and exceed the international challenger.
Comanche is probably the only international boat that has been bought by an Australian syndicate with the view to win the race, after it had seen success, built and raced by another country.
That said, Morning Glory (another foreign boat) was the first boat to beat the race record in 21 years and it was also the first Reichel Pugh design to win.
Since then RP designs have practically dominated the race (all of which are Australian or Kiwi boats), with the exception of Comanche, which wasn't originaly Australian, Kiwi or RP.
As for the 'safety' comment I made, it isn't relating to Catagory ratings as defined by MCA etc, it is about the types of boats, technologies and crewing requirements that the CYC see as being safe and tested enough.
For example there are many cat 0 yachts that are solo capable, some can race in the hobart race (IMOCA comes to mind) but the limiting factor in this case is crew requirements (solo is still not permitted in the hobart race).
Canting keels had Cat 0 clearance back in the day but were banned by the CYC until they were satisfied that the technology was safe enough.
There were some monumental failures of early canting keel designs (early Farr yachts come to mind), and the CYC just didnt want to take the risk.
Further on reflection though I think you may be correct about the CYC trying to protect Australian sailing interests to a degree.
If the race were overcome by international multihulls, the race would die off fairly quickly I think, and that would be a darn shame.
If Alex Thompson's hugo boss raced, well that may be the change we all could get behind, and could have lasting impacts on the boats that contend the race from that point.
@@paulgrimmond6351 Thanks so much for your thoughts! It’s definitely interesting to contemplate their reasoning. As for some arguments people have made about it being a “classic” race, I wonder how those people might speak to the allowed use of powered winches, which aren’t “classic” in my mind, nor universally acceptable in racing circles. As such it’s almost like the Sidney Hobart has established it’s own class of dominant boats!
@Sailing Tips
Great discussion, thanks!
It is interesting to contemplate the CYC's reasoning on why they align the rules like they do.
The thing I forgot to bring up on the safety front is that multihulls can't self right in the event of a capsize.
Therefore requiring rescue.
When Bass Strait gets nasty, it gets nasty fast. The 1987 and especially 1998 race come to mind.
Interesting you bring up powered winches as they were also banned in the mid 2000's!
I look forward to your next video on the race!
How about because it was conceived in and has been organized since by the CYC, the CRUISING yacht club.
I could win the Melbourne cup on a trail bike but they won't let me enter a "horse race" on anything but a horse, go figure?
Lastly the was a great yachting competition once... J Class boats it was the panicle of yacht racing for over 125 years. It was reported on the news, people watched it and were interested, you may have even heard of it, it was known as the "America's Cup". Haven't heard of it for a while, I believe they changed to multi-hulls.
Multihulls are pretty common in the cruising world as well, although I'm not sure a cruising multihull is a good choice for this race, or any race for that matter! Do the organizers see Comanche and the other super-maxis as a cruising boats? The America's cup did sail multihulls for a while but have been back to monohulls for the last couple of editions.
Because multi-hulls would embarass the mono's.......tooo sloooow, old boys club....boooring
That’s a succinct way of putting it!!!
It's the one yacht race the Aussies are guaranteed to win because they can't win anything else !! The best Aussie sailors come and sail for NZ in the Americas Cup and as a Kiwi we know just how good they are, hope Aussie learns that some day and has the balls to rock up and do what they did all those years ago and give the AC a crack !! Might even surprise yourselves.
Interesting that all the Aussies (e.g. Jimmy Spithill) race on boats for other countries!
Sydney to Hobart is one of the few races that Run North to South crossing latitudes and this often brings different weather systems into play. With the EAC running down the coast north to south and the often strong counter Southerly winds, can cause very large backless waves to form. This causes a huge amount of pounding into heavy seas dropping of the back of large waves. Not a place to be in a multihull yacht.
Yes conditions can be pretty nasty there especially with the Bass Strait!!!
At last, a comment from someone that has done a S2H!
@@rickpyne So the Melbourne to Hobart which ran a couple days later and does allow multis doesn’t have this problem because of the direction?
@@SailingTipsCa S2H experiences the effects of East aust current running south and waves from south causing steep waves with no backs that can cause severe structural problems when boats can drop 10ft or more. M2H experiences more westerly swells and the waves ae not as extreme. Mind you having done both races a few times, the West coast of tassy gets very tough at times. Hope that helps you understand a bit more. Cats are better at reaching and monos are better at beating into the breeze.
@@SailingTipsCa No the strong westerly winds on the West coast tend to run down the coast with the. Current. Forming very large rolling waves.
I believe this is factually wrong, Bass Strait is one of the roughest stretches of water in the world with rogue wave at shallow opposing front exceeding 10m in height at a very close pitch that could tip a cat or trimaran. They aren’t allowed because they can’t self-right.
Yes the Bass Strait can be a very nasty piece of ocean and multihulls cannot self right. At the same time the ULTIME maxi trimarans are not as prone to capsize as other classes, including IDEC Sport which holds the world record for a global circumnavigation via the Southern Ocean and sailed right past the South East Cape of Tasmania while doing so, covering more than 800 nautical miles per day for 10 consecutive days. Have any of the current suite of maxi yachts that frequent the Sydney Hobart done a circumnavigation?
Why should the multihulls gate crash everything? They can have their own separate race at another date if they wish.
And that’s what they currently do!
I've not done the Sydney Hobart yet, but it is legendary rough across the shallow straight. A tri was dismasted during the last Newport Bermuda race. I was out for that race. It wasn't THAT rough. Trimarans might be a safety concern as well.
World Sailing has Offshore Safety Regulations for both monohulls and multihulls for all waters covering the globe: www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WSOffshoreSpecialRegulations20222023v2-[27823].pdf The Category 0 multihulls sail pretty much the same course around the world as the Vendee Globe monohulls, including through the Southern Ocean, so I think it would be a matter of ensuring the right safety regulations are in place.
@@SailingTipsCa There is something above Cat 0 for especially nasty bits?
@@yzScott Category 0 is the most stringent category defined as “Trans-oceanic races, including races which pass through areas in which air or sea temperatures are likely to be less than 5°C (41°F) other than temporarily, where boats must be completely self-sufficient for very extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance”
No tongues!
Because they would win. Everytime
Yes even with separate divisions for handicap the line honours accolades would definitely change!
I'm OK with only monos in the Syd to Hob. Not sure why people want the multies to race in the event for- tradition should mean something. I don't think they allow multies in the Melb to Hob "Westcoaster" either. Perhaps a separate race for the multies, Hob to Syd starting the day after new years day?
It could be moot as I’m not sure the fast European multis would bother making the long delivery to Aus, whereby the Fastnet, which also previously didn’t allow multis, is right in their back yard.
They do have multis in the west coater..... You can follow them right now on the tracker.
Yep .My comment has not aged well. Picadillo who currently is in 2nd won line honors last year. My wife and I was lucky enough to get a tour of her a couple of years ago. First time I'd been on a forward cockpit cat.
"tradition" is another perfectly plausible reason.
multihills are amazing, but monohulls are beautiful in a way multihulls are not.
and if multihulls then someone will say 'what about foiling boats?'.
anycase, i daresay there is much truth in the idea of wanting to keep it largely and aussie event.
Yes “tradition” would be a perfectly plausible reason! Some of the boats look like Swiss Army Knives with all the appendages so I’m sure there are already some who are pushing the boundaries on what is allowed regarding partially lifting foils.
The cyc should doesn't want the French winning
Especially since the French aren’t typically big fans of Vegemite!!!
1.Mono hull yacht club
2. Handicap for trophy is monohull rating system.
3. Only variable reason, yet valid. Safety. Capsize and conditions of multi mass fleet too high.
TH-camrs😅
They use two different handicapping systems for monohulls in the race so do you know how they reconcile them? Also the Melbourne to Hobart was the day after the Sydney to Hobart and there were three multihulls in that and all somehow survived!
Ocean racing would be far more interesting, and produce healthier boats that contribute more to yacht design, if there were a cargo requirement. This could also help even out the multi/mono divide. Race entries are to be weighed on a travel lift. Just before the race the cargo is announced, loaded, and secured. Cargo is apportioned as a percentage of boat mass. The exact cargo makeup and % of mass is not known ahead of time. It is randomly generated from allowable ranges just before loading. It is always a mix chosen from predetermined forms simulating traditional cargo: long lumber, cylindrical barrels of dense liquid, low density 1 meter cubes, burlap sacks of grain, ???. The cargo has sensors to measure "damage" like shock, dryness, compression, tampering, depending on cargo type. Crew and powered automation are more tightly regulated than dimensions or rig. All sail area on board is counted in handicap. What gets produced are hopefully designs which could haul an interior, and cruising stores, while still being fast, rugged, and flexible in trim. Rigs with a little extra power and flexibility that don't require as large a crew, and require fewer large sail changes.
That’s a really interesting idea - I love it!!!
Have you ever been on a 40' offshore race boat?? What with crew and sails, and the ability to move SAFELY around the boat, there is no room for "extra shit!"
@@7divad37 That's exactly the point. All the current classes [that aren't just written around an existing vintage fleet] produce designs that favor a substantial crew to operate, but aren't great at carrying shit. A class that encourages designs that accommodate short handed operation and carrying shit would be refreshing. It would broaden marketability and variety in cruising designs if people saw these boats can beat ULD designs if flexible load, space, and passage making requirements are added to the equation.
The real reason is ego. Mulithulls would make the monster useless mono hulls look slow and the Biggus Dickus mentality in todays world would not allow that.
Multis are good at beating much larger and more expensive monos boat-for-boat!
@@SailingTipsCa Correct. Ask Dennis Connors.
I don't get the discussion, its up to the Race Committee to decide. In all sports rules and regulations exist. Multihulls have plenty other venues.
Yes it is up to the Race Committee to decide so interesting to speculate as to why! Even “it’s tradition” would be a reasonable answer.
Multihulls are known as catamarans and trimarans not yachts. A yacht has a single hull.
Yes and still some other races that describe themselves as “yacht races” still welcome multihulls e.g. Fastnet.
No money in it.Cant fit them into the Marina.
Yes the marina space is a valid argument that others have mentioned - I’m sure the harbour is absolutely packed in the days leading up to the event.
because there is more loss of life at sea with multi hulls than Any other design . I'm a lifelong boat builder and I know. multi hulls can't handle bass Strait
Really - where did you get your numbers regarding more loss of life in multihulls? What kinds of boats do you build?
A lot of it stems from safety. A multi will not self write itself making it far more dangerous. Every participating vessel now self writes itself.
Yes the inability for a multihull to self-right itself is definitely a downside! Fortunately the ULTIME maxi trimarans like IDEC Sport don’t capsize very often, and many have broken global circumnavigation records in the Southern Ocean, sailing right past Tasmania in the process.
Monos tend to sit upright..on the ocean floor after hitting something big.
It is a yacht race. A multi hull boat is not a yacht. Please look up YACHT.
Yes and the Fastnet is also a yacht race which allows multihulls, for example, hence the question.
This is called tradition, even this word doesn’t mean you anything
Yes I’ve heard that too - why not race square rigged wooden ships with cannons then!
Probably cause their junk in the way that they can't right themselves after a flip over
Sadly there are a few Sydney to Hobart yachts on the bottom of the ocean. Both forms of yachts aren’t infallible.
Some designs can right themselves, like the Gougeon 32, although I wouldn’t sail that in this particular race.
@@SailingTipsCa it seems a multi hull would be more likely to break apart as well as not roll over
@@johnstewart42 yea anything Is dangerous in a bad storm I imagine...it does seem a multi hull would be more likely to break apart though
Sorry to rain on your parade, Team Australia did the journey in absolute dream conditions. I have crossed Bass Strait multiple times and can tell you 95% of the time conditions range from Bad to the downright ugly all the way to the conditions that occurred during the 1978 Fastnet Race. Modern multihulls are not strong enough to withstand those sorts of conditions. Imagine sitting on a wave where your outriggers are on the crest of a wave with the main hull suspended 20 feet or more above the trough. This is a safety issue first and only.
The outboard floats (amas) of a modern racing trimaran are typically designed with flotation equal to 2-3 times the weight of the entire boat, and the beams (akas) are designed to withstanding righting moment forces of 10 times the weight of the boat or more. This enables sailing on the leeward float alone, with the main hull and windward float entirely out of the water, so having the main hull out of the water is not only not a problem, it's rather normal.
That said, there is a substantially increased risk of capsize/pitchpole in the conditions you describe, therefore racing a multihull in the ocean requires a different mindset than racing a monohull: With a monohull the crew is typically asking themselves "How do we make this boat go as fast as possible in these conditions?" pretty much all the time (except survival conditions). With the multihull the crew is typically asking themselves "How fast is it safe to go in these conditions?". In other words, the safety of a multihull is much more dependant on the decisions and actions of the crew than a monohull.
Multihull crews must also take sea state into account much more than monohull crews, both with the speed and direction of the boat. A diligent multihull crew will slow the boat substantially in the difficult conditions you describe, and also steer the boat much more in accordance with the sea state, even if it means going in the wrong direction.
@@SailingTipsCa I have built many types of boats and although they may have the structural integrity you describe the race is for irc and ior rated yachts. As for pitch polling and capsize ability in anything than absolute ideal conditions most multi hulls wouldn't make the offshore mark without some kind of major incident. Personally having sailed around Australia multiple times I would suggest multi hulls should stay north of Newcastle and the tropics where sea states are more favourable
@@navcenter77 Probably not a good idea for these Jules Verne Trophy multis to be playing around in the Southern Ocean then!!! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Verne_Trophy
@@SailingTipsCa Personally I wouldn't take them outside the Mediterranean, but that's just me. Fundamental Rule A "It is a skippers responsibility whether to start or finish a race" In other words the skipper has legal responsibility other the health and safety of the crew and vessel.
@@navcenter77 You’re absolutely right about the skipper’s responsibility for the health and safety of the crew and vessel Thanks for all your comments!!!
Multis are rubbish
So not getting one anytime soon? Why do you think that?
Multi hulls destroyed the Americas Cup Race, it was great to follow even when Australia lost and the yanks cheated today it’s a shit race, is it still run ?
Yes now using fully foiling monohulls called AC75s, Kiwis are the current cup holder.