PINNED COMMENT: Thanks for watching and for hearing me out on how I oppose the aggressive Next Gen forehand in today's game (which going forward I will reference as “Gull wing” forehand). You may not agree and that's OK, but realize my intent is meant to be constructive in the hopes that people will implement good stroke mechanics in the pursuit of hitting consistent shots with confidence. Apologies for the misspelling of "Kyrgios" , that was a sloppy oversight on my part. If you enjoy this content, please consider Subscribing and LIKE 👍
From my perspective as a 4.0 63 years old player Karue Sell's technique looks very clean, efficient, not overloaded but straight forward even if his forehand is not "great" or "perfect". But it looks reliable and effortless. Wolud be nice to see an analysis of what he is doing..
Best players in the world can make millions of dollars with this technique. I wouldn’t call it a scam but it’s not for everyone and shouldn’t be taught initially to juniors.
In fact there's a correct technique and many valid styles, tennis is very technical. Once a player master the technique and pick the right style it will notice the difference.
100% agree with this video. Tennis is about consistency. Why create a complicated "wind up" for inconsistent results? It's as if the people who promote this thing tell players that it won't always work, but when it does...look out! I say this being 35+ veteran of the sport who uses a "classic" forehand.
In the 1980s I was a grad student at UNC Chapel Hill. Their library carried back issues of _Athletic Journal_ and in 1960 or 1962 Jack Kramer published an article titled "The Modern Forehand." From this article I learned that the modern forehand is a flat shot hit with a "shake-hands" grip and a firm wrist.
@@TK-TennisNo. It’s simply an article describing a development of the game at that time. A game which is still developing as proven by the production of this video.
that would be referred to as a classic FH today. The game is always evolving with new equipment and new technique. the game is much faster today reason the next gen forehand dominates the ATP tour not modern FH. Next gen allows for a more compact stroke that is quicker to execute than a modern FH that has a longer loopier FH. Next Gen shortens the stroke uses more kinetic chain less moving parts less time to execute only looks like a longer stroke since players get the arm & elbow up sooner as they move to the ball. Rick Massey teaches the Next gen forehand has been for over a decade
I think it comes down to this: All things being equal, which will fail first - simple, efficient, minimal extra steps technique OR the overly complicated "Rube Goldberg Machine" technique? In a neutral rally on a big point, which will miss first? Kyrgios and Tiafoe are spectacular athletes with sick hand-eye coordination, which is why they will get wins over 99% of tennis players. But when they face people who are in the same range of athleticism and talent that have simpler technique, the complicated technique is more likely to fail on the big points that often determine match outcomes. And since it seems far more big points are decided by errors instead of winners, the player with the uncomplicated technique is more likely to not miss when the pressure is on. And that's often what we see play out in the matches Kyrgios and Tiafoe lose. I think Novak Djokovic is the perfect example of how better technique makes better players. Nole was already so talented that he reached #3 in the world and won a Slam with poor FH and serve technique. Then when he cleaned those up, he reaches a whole 'nother level and becomes the GOAT of tennis. So no matter how good you are, you'll always be better with better technique if you are able to change to it.
Kyrgios and Tiafoe are undeniably exceptional athletes, but let's not act like they are even remotely in the same wheelhouse as even Sinner or Alcaraz are, let alone greats like Murray, Federer, Nadal, Thiem, Wawrinka, or Dimitrov.
Pretty much, in Tennis you need to be an all rounder and cover every aspect of the game to be able to win consistently. Its the same for Federer and Nadal, they all started with some high end qualities in certain aspect of their game and only truly become dominant in other surfaces once they improve their weakness. Djokovic is probably the player that has the best all round abilities. If Roger is, Serve - 9 FH - 10 BH - 6 Speed - 7 Stamina - 8 Touch - 10 Nadal is, Serve - 7 FH - 9 BH - 9 Speed - 10 Stamina - 10 Touch - 6 Djokovic is, Serve - 9 FH - 9 BH - 9 Speed - 8 Stamina - 9 Touch - 8 Djokovic may not have the best ability in a single category but he has the overall better all around ability. This is a rough scoring and concept but you get my point. In Tennis you need to cover all areas to be consistent. People are attracted to a single aspect that shines. Like when you see John Isner or Karlovic servers or Kyrgios and Jack Sock smack powerful rocket forehands, but those abilities alone won't win you games. To have that kind of tall and heavy body to serve powerfully, is going to cost you some aspect in movement, to have that kind of awkward next gen forehand motion to hit powerful forehands is going to cost you more preparation time and compromise on your speed or ability to return balls from awkward position and posture your opponent puts you into. The thing about tennis is that your opponent doesn't always give you time and the best setup. Its easy to look strong and powerful in practice when you are fed with easy balls. In real match, the quality of the balls from your opponent and the strategy to place them will prevent you from hitting your best shots. Next gen forehand technique isn't good at cover many aspect of the game and situations.
@ Agree. Nole is technically proficient at just about everything on the court. His ONLY weakness is his forehand overhead which has cost him a few big matches over his career. But opponents cannot consistently target that weakness as a game plan to beat him. Which is why he wins so much!
actually the next gen is the simpler stroke less moving parts and more compact than the modern FH that has a longer loopier back swing. Djokovic has many elements of next Gen FH majority of ATP players have next Gen incl sinner alcaraz ruud some are more extreme on their technique with some super high elbow, wierd hitches in their stroke others smoother more compact
I really like this type of content. It's fresh, it's unorthodox, it's provoking and it's actually in most parts true. If you look at top 10 pro players, there maybe two-three of them who would I describe "tennis technique" role models. It's Djokovic, Dimitrov and from the youngest gen I consider Jannik Sinner also player with very good technique. The other guy's technique in my opinion is in many aspects flawed, but it works (for them). The thing with tennis technique is that there is nothing like a perfect technique or technique to "copy/paste". Every single human being is original. Everyone has different sense of time and space. Everyone has different skeletal and muscle build. All these details determine how players move, how they see tennis ball and how they see not only themselves, but also others. So "the next gen" forehand thing is in my opinion a scam because there is no next gen forehand in the first place. It's just a coincidence of motions. I'm also coaching and the best example is when you get to someone who is a natural talent. You don't teach him a particular technique. He figures it out himself. He just needs to follow some basic steps and rules like hitting early, early loading phase and mostly how to move and position himself on court. With that said, what is your opinion on this young 14 year old guy who started playing tennis when he was 12,5 years old. So just 1,5 year in the process and he looks like he was playing at least 5 years. No one told him this technique adn still it looks pretty awesome, very modern. Maybe he learnd it while watching other players but he didn't copy anyone, it just makes the most sense to him, his body and his brain to hit the ball like this. Check it out here and let me know your opinion. th-cam.com/video/8SUU-0rTDq0/w-d-xo.html
Couldn't agree more with paragraph 2 & 3 particularly when it comes to teaching young players. There would be no Rafa if someone was able to steer him away from his natural stroke mechanics. However sometimes the influence of Pros like in the case with Kyrgios and his next gen forehand, kids can end up following and enhancing those poor stoke mechanics to a point where it will fail for the vast majority of players. There is a delicate balance when developing a junior between placing them too firmly into some conformed expectation versus letting them develop into their own Frankenstein. I watched your video-kudos on your temperament! I really appreciate your calm delivery. The young man’s strokes look fantastic, particularly the forehand. I think his inconsistency-between hitting flawless shots and the occasional wild miss-comes down to undeveloped anticipation/positioning and still-building muscle memory. Have him hit 1,000+ balls daily to refine his coordination, and he’ll be leveling up consistently in no time. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts! 👋
if you come from Czechia ,you're an above average tennis player off the bat😀...seriously though..the way you guys teach tennis is the best in the world in my opinion....
@@lszujo Yeah, I'm from Czechia. I think we have a great new generation of players, finally on men's side as well. Macháč, Lehečka, Menšík in TOP 50. And 7 women in TOP 50. We cannot complain right now. I think the Czechs have a very good combination of tough mentality and hard working spirit as well. And one of the biggest things is that our children start on clay, which is a very hard surface to master. And at the same time this surface gives you many miss bounces and you have to make corrections all the time and you have to focus a lot more compared to hard-courts. That's why so many Europian players are so good. Clay just makes you tougher. Americans should start teaching tennis on clay as well, otherwise they will lose in a long term.
Can’t help to compare this to the “modern” baseball swing where players are sacrificing consistent contact for launch angle and home runs. Strikeouts are up and averages are down in an attempt to hit the ball in the air instead of on a line.
That is a fair comp 👍. I think the reward in Baseball is higher and the analytics probably back that up, whereas in Tennis consistency + power is the winning formula, at least in the Men's game
8:19 I was going to disagree with you on next gen forehands, but when I saw that we just have different definitions of what a next gen forehand is (Carlos and Sinner have next gen forehand in my opinion, especially Carlos as he has his elbow at the same height of his shoukder) then I would tend to agree. The kyrgios/Tiafoe style forehand is not good for amateurs and I would say that it is less powerful and consistent than Alcaraz's technique or Federer/Nadal which makes it inferior in every way.
@@MichaelDamianPHD if any, it's close to NG than modern. Not extreme NG but it's more like hybrid. Definitely not traditional modern for sure. th-cam.com/video/F18VBTKIUro/w-d-xo.html
Alcaraz's is not a Next Gen FH. The racket is slightly tilted forward but still elbow below the racket head. Sort of a middle ground. More stabile and not as loopy and herky jerky as the Next Gen.
@@ntnnot actually he is combination of the two and next gen FH are not loopy but more compact racquet stays more to the side and front of the body uses trunk rotation to whip through the shot with a windshield wiper finish motion. basically they just bring their elbow up keeping it bent as they move to the shot and coil then just straighten and drop their arm as they uncoil into the shot the trunk rotation whips the arm creates the racquet lag and flip some players just have some extreme quirky hitches of this stroke others much smoother like ruud just about every atp player now using variation of next gen forehand Gregor Dimitrov Djokovic sinner
Fully agree with the speaker. I would never train my kid with this kind a forhand. More over it's terrible for staying healthy, for sure you will get injured. Tennis is played with body and shoulders and hand and wrist would need to have natural swing not that next gen scam :)
IMO the biggest difference between the next-gen forehand and the modern forehand is the the racquet head pointing direction. If the racquet head points forward when initiates the swing, that's basically the next-gen forehand. Therefore, Carlos and Jannik are both next-gen forehand, Novak is a modern forehand. Next Gen forehand has the flick motion which Carlos, Jannik, Tiafoe, Tommy Paul... all have that. To me, what you described in the video is just one variant of the next-gen forehand, it doesn't represent all next-gen forehands
I agree, and that's why I referred to this variant as an "Aggressive next gen" forehand, which in hindsight maybe "over-pronounced next gen forehand" or something like that would be more appropriate. I also would also suggest a true next gen forehand also requires the "Elbow up" position combined with the forward facing racquet head.
@ I agree the elbow up part. But if that’s the case, the video title should be aggressive next gen forehand. Right now the title is misleading, people would think you are saying all next gen forehands are scam. Especially the chart you provided, not putting Carlos and Jannik in the next gen forehand category seems questionable. Just my 2 cents.
@@ulunxtns I understand your point of view, but the challenge is everyone seems to have their view or definition of what the next gen forehand is, not to say my definition is the authority. In this video I defined it as elbow up combined with the forward facing racquet (for the sake of simplicity). If a player has both of these attributes on their forehand then I do take the position that it's a scam. Hope that helps clear it up. In an upcoming video I will highlight my position why Sinner and Carlos are not hitting a next gen forehand.
You can agree or disagree with his video, but it is undeniable that at 8:14 in the video every player on the right side of the table has a better forehand than the guys on the left side (except maybe Khachanov, and Machac)
Former teaching pro here (back in the 90s). Speaking of swing paths, I always taught beginners to hit through the ball first vs brushing up. Keep the swing path more consistent and "feel" the solid shots. Some other pro taught some beginners to swing like Rafa (pre-Nadal when I taught but increased topspin was becoming more popular) before they came into my junior groups. Not only did they have longer backswings, they were constantly shanking the ball or making poor contact on their shots due to the swing path angle. They didn't learn how to hit through the ball first. Looking at these "modern" forehands, I'd take Agassi's forehand over most of them!
Are you saying that when people start with hitting through the ball, they don't frequently whack it out of the court or into the net, due to flatness? That certainly was my experience! But I appreciate the idea that brushing up should not be overemphasized at first.
@@MichaelDamianPHD No. Not what I'm saying. Yes, hitting flatter will result in balls in the net or long at times. Again, I'm talking about beginning players and progressions. Simple to more advanced and understanding along the way. You still have a little bit of low to high & can get natural topspin via the "old school" strokes. The idea is to have the racquet "path" be more linear through the ball toward the target so you get better ball feel, accuracy (directional control), and success early on. From there, you can gradually develop your strokes and advance to more modern swings with more topspin.
are you still teaching the classic forehand with continental grip finish above your shoulder? I see lots of instructors still teaching that. The game is different today if you want to play at a high level next gen forehand is the ticket and it doesn't have to look like tiafoe or Tommy paul, musetti or Kyrios nor should it be taught like that those guys have extreme elbow elevation and wierd hitches. Rick Massey teaches the next gen FH it works very well for anyone with semi to western. can find him on youtube
It's not a shot I would advise to amateurs for sure. It requires the right body and lot of practice. Furthermore it can lead more easily to injuries. I've read that the same Kyrgios has just recovered from a 2 years very serious injury at the wrist. If you look at how he hits the shot, you can guess that there is some correlation.
It's useful sometimes for getting a little extra whip power out of your stroke. If you're running cross court you can also start winding up for a stroke like this and get a bit extra on the ball to hit it deeper down the line for example. I wouldn't do it all the time, but if you have the time, it can feel really nice and give you that extra whip.
Very good point, and players like Sampras and Lendl turned the running forehands into weapons. Their forehands however did not have that high "gull wing" style many players today use.
Not evolution of the Modern per say, but I posted a follow-up here: th-cam.com/video/QWGSJ7NPx0Q/w-d-xo.html&lc=Ugzw9dDbgbZhnznLI2t4AaABAg. Thanks for watching
I totally agree with you. I always thought the Next Gen Forehand method was very weird and not pretty to look at. After watching your video, I found it to be less efficient. I don't think there's any reason for new players to blindly follow it. It's not even cool!
I do agree with some points but as the other guy said “different strokes for different folks” as long as you’re winning that’s all that matters but yes it shouldn’t be taught to those it doesn’t come natural to..
@@TK-Tennis it’s the type of stroke that needs to come natural I can totally agree with that viewpoint as it will harm the junior more than help..Great point as a coach myself I adapt how I teach to what comes natural tennis coaching is not a one size fits all..If a coach is trying to teach all his/her juniors this technique it’s time to find a new coach..
Another benefit of the next gen forehand in my opinion, would that it allows you to manage heavier rackets for longer periods as you are not lifting the head of the racket on every single forehand swing. Lets see this breakdown of Alcaraz and Sinner
I would counter that a longer swing path, combined with a heavier object in motion, increases inertia, making it harder for a player to alter their swing direction quickly. This restricts the ability to make the fine adjustments that tennis often demands. Sinner and Alcaraz are on the docket 👍
That may be outside of my sphere of knowledge and there maybe better people to highlight this. I like the idea and if/when confident enough, I can embark on it.
Next Gen? I hv had that FH since the 70's!! We were taught to hit through the ball. If u wanna hit through the ball, must keep the racket head high. Modern game nowadays, hitting from low to high, brushing effect. Some players trying this high elbow, high racket head, but trying to hit low to high... which don't work. Also, now, most players hv low tension strings.. gd for topspins, since topspins are more forgiving. My racket are strung at 68lbs. 'Flat-ish' hit... slight topspin towards the end of the impact...
Boris Becker said that what happens prior to the ball strike is irrelevant if you are consistently early. The top pros are usually early on the ball. Best forehands of all time from a technical standpoint include David Nalbandian, Gregor Dimitrov, Marcos Baghdatis. Nalbandian’s forehand was simply incredible.
For some reason the next gen forehand only works for me when I use Yonex Racquets or racquets with smaller head size in general. My modern forehand works better with 100 inch size racquets like Babolat Aero Pro Drive and Dunlop SX300.
I do not play tennis yet but find this video very interesting. I looked up the classic forehand technique and John McEnroe was one of the players listed as using a classic forehand. The classic forehand seems more efficient just curious why coaching moved away from it?
I’d say the biggest problem with hitting with a closed face type of shot is it’s super easy to shank balls. Them being pro they get to practice it all the time paradoxically. It creates a very spiny heavier shot. But it’s very tough to create power while changing directions . As far as comparing that type of shot to Sampras and Lendl I’d have to disagree you cannot achieve a ball like that with a continental grip. Personally I’d prefer hitting through the ball taking time as much as possible from opponents vs that much spin. It’s not a scam if it wins them high six figures and millions of dollars excluding titles Grand slams. But I’ve played a few players who hit with that style and it’s good but it’s not the most efficient way.
Some players use strokes similar to the Gull Wing style strokes of today with a Continental or Eastern Grips, although how the racquet contacts the ball is more towards the outside of the ball and not nearly as aggressive in the low-to-high angle of attack. The preparation is somewhat similar in that they all have some Gull Wing characteristics in preparation, but addressing the ball is slightly different. Both Lendl and Sampras has Eastern forehand grips, although I played with a top 150 player during my time working at Lendl's club and he somehow still was able to hit topspin effectively by hitting the outside of the ball and his swing was just like Ivan's. And that's right, I often mention if someone has enough time and practice they can make it work all the way to the bank.
I also have to agree with this one, I realize that "elbow up" is very situational and does not need to be forced and happens naturally, for example when you are in front of the net and the ball comes high, my elbow automatically and naturally goes up by itself.
Great breakdown. Andre Agassi was described as a "clean" ball striker. You're spot on, consistency is king, KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) still applies. Compelling contrast of players at the top levels Your point about pressure exposing flaws is well taken (illustrates the absence of grand slam titles) and failure to grasp the next level. Thanks for the heads up.
You need the racquet face open as much as possible in the preparation, because in case timing is off, you still want to be able to make contact, that’s why Federer Nadal Djokovic, Andy Murray, their forehands are going to be more efficient
I agree 100%. I would caution younger players developing and growing that the biomechanics of this 'technique' might lead to injury. And it's super inconsistent under pressure - while trying to get as much power as possible at sometimes the wrong time.
Clearly it is repeatable if you can make it to the top of the game! I like that you can hit any way you want (presumably no coach forced NK to hit his FH like he does) and we get to see if it works or not in the matches, not a coach rigidly telling you to stick within whatever they think is right. I agree the junior (or his coach) in this vid has probably been too focused on using some prescribed technique, rather than finding his own way. But IME juniors like to pick up and copy techniques and will then drop them just as quickly on their journey of finding their own.
When you watch the video of Federer or Sinner in their early/junior years, it's noticeable how much less "flipping" they do with their forehands, suggesting that they developed this technique later more naturally. I think one way to avoid having to categorise players is to talk about this biomechanically. The high elbow seems like a good starting point for discussion. With high elbow, the forearm usually stays at the same level as the elbow (if the forearm is higher than elbow, then it's more of a classic forehand with higher preparation, such as Del Potro or Nalbandian). So now the variations come from the hand/wrist position. In all cases, the forehand needs to end up in the the "slot" position. As you point out, the aggressive next gen forehand is the position from which it takes longest path to the slot position, hence your point about its effectiveness.
I like these technique breakdowns more than product reviews. Can you do a video on how to have a consistent heavy forehand? I played a tournament recently and had a lot of errors that I don't usually make during rallies. I realized I need to have a consistent heavy shot as a backup during tight points
Thanks and I enjoy doing these videos more than product review as well, with the exception of string reviews. The challenge is to play tournaments the same way you practice. Tournaments and the stresses of match play have a way of making players question everything. I have a pending video on which forehands should be emulated, stayed tuned and thanks for watching.
Good vid. Forgot to mention next gen leads to lazy footwork, which also will be a detriment to your game. It makes you more reliant on your arm over hip drive/getting in the chair
Good video. One question: specifically, WHY does the next gen forehand create a lot of power? I know you mentioned that the next gen swing is quite long. Is that THE reason? A lot of young junior players have very long backswings where the backswing crossed the line behind them (6 o'clock) and the racquet points to 7 or even 8 o'clock. The kids make this very long backswing to try to get more power. So the next gen forehand is also a long swing, but instead of being behind the player, it is out in front of the player (racquet pointing toward the net, on the hitting side of the body). So perhaps the kids are trying to make a long swing but keep the racquet on the hitting side (as many coaches now encourage), and the next gen technique would be a way to accomplish that. Also, I'm thinking that at least part of the power from the next gen forehand comes from the increased wrist lag that would result in the racquet head pointing in front of the player at the moment of transition from backswing to foreward swing. If you enter into this change of direction phase with the racquet pointing toward the target, you can use the full weight of the racquet to help facilitate a ton of lag. Just a thought.
Having tested and compared a few techniques myself I would say that it comes from the wrist lag/snap...so I agree with what you wrote...but of course a long swing path can be used to create more power...but that´s not what the next gen forehand is about IMHO...
I agree with you.its ugly and annoying to watch .few extra unnessary moves ,it affects the timing and it tires the shoulder, wrist -and it is energy -draining stroke! And it breaks down under pressure points!
I think Zverev and Alcaraz have 2 of the best forehands right now and both of theirs have elbow on shoulder height. I feel that it’s much more easier to get power plus spin on next gen forehand. I think whatever is natural is what you should swing with that being modern or next gen.
Great video, I always thought the Mahac forehand looked weird like he was swinging from waist height. I must say that I highly doubt that most pros have practiced for “tens of thousands” of hours.
They have, it's in the math. If you practice 2, 3 or 4 hours a day, 6 days a week for 20 years it adds up to well over 10,000 hours and can surpass 20-25k hours over their careers. Food for thought. 2 hours/day: 12,480 hours 3 hours/day: 18,720 hours 4 hours/day: 24,960 hours As for Machac I am always so torn watching him play, such an amazing mover and incredible ball striker but with a forehand that makes me smile and cringe all at the same time
@ Sheesh that’s incredible, makes me wonder what I’ve been doing with my whole life🤦🏽♂️😂 Would you say that the quality of the practice is more important than the quantity?
Right, you could have just spent all that time training for the chance to make the tour ;-). No, as much as I would like to believe quality is king, with all other things being equal (Training, effort, fitness, talent) quantity is more critical, particularly more so for junior who are trying to make the tour. Even with less the ideal technique there are countless players who have succeeded at the top ranks of the pros from determination and dedication and some physical gifts alone. However for adult rec. players quality and doing things the most efficient way has more weight, although quantity/time is still as important.
Not that it really matters, but conspicuously absent from your list of the usual suspects are Sock and Draper, both names that I, at least, view as synonymous with the whole next-gen phenomenon and the sorta’ poster-boys for it together with Kyrgios.
I started playing only 5 years ago and experimented a lot I agree, this type of forehand should not be copied by recreationals, and if a tennis coach teaches you this forehand sue him 🤭
I don’t know how kids hit these forehands. They’re so hard to time. A standard forehand is as effective and is the best of both worlds when it comes to margin and depth, however much of which that you’re trying to achieve.
There are two guys in the top 10 that come to mind with a VERY pronounced high elbow position, Zverev and Alcaraz. I don't even need to comment on the quality of these two forehands. Moral of the lesson, if you get more power and spin from that high elbow position and you like it, DO IT.
Generally agree. It works for players who are exceptionally gifted(Kyrgios), but it's suboptimal for most players, especially non-pros. Many have also gotten away with it because of a generation of slow balls/slower hard courts/crazy spinny strings(IMO bad for the game if it's like that every week), which slow the game down and give them more time. As they've sped up courts/balls a bit in the last year, you're seeing guys like Fritz with classic forehands have more success. Also some people in the comments talking about Carlos...his forehand is way closer to Federer's classic forehand than the next gen forehand. Also would say T. Paul doesn't really have a next gen forehand(save for his initial wrist movement, his loop and extension are more modern).
Good deal, thanks for watching and for keeping an open-mind. If you feel it's working for you and your level of play is consistently solid day in and day out, then keep at it 👍.
I agree with you about these elaborate backswings. I much prefer Fed's, Fognini, Sell, Agassi, etc. Tiafoe does it about as simply as possible I would say. Sinner also. I would personally put Sinner in the Next Gen technique category.
@TK-Tennis I know Tiafoe looks weird, but to me, if you were to watch only his hand movement from prep to contact, it is actually pretty compact. But I certainly would not recommend his technique to anyone.
I totally agree, I can watch this in my home Club. The shots are going short, but with much spin. Actually these guys are Young and It good shape.But, if the game becomes fast, there is no time for preparation. To many unforced errors inmo
I’m a tennis beginner but it looks like Nick is twisting when jumping up. That’s kind of a basketball thing but you can get lots of power from it. Probably on par with what you get from stepping through the shot but like you said less consistentcy.
In todays game all players with semi-western and western grips load up their rear legs, hit open-stance and have upwards thrust on the majority of shots to impart topspin. That's simply proper technique in today's game, but the next gen forehand causes this movement to be excessively aggressive thereby reducing consistency. Keep hitting the courts and welcome to the game 👋
Good point. It would seem logical that the more complex the stroke the more injuries you would see due to the effect of hitting the ball late more often. I think many people will wonder if the new Moden forehand with all the wrist supination will do the same 🤷♂
@TK-Tennis I used to play forehands with the wta forehand and I developed tennis elbow. Now that I use the next generation forehand i do not get tennis elbow.
high elbow away from body results in that type of forehand its a solution for too long backswing/breaking the plane, wta type of old school swing, so they try to achieve something opposite to what you are saying - short compact swing i guess or am I wrong
I would disagree with a few on your list. Sinner is definitely on the next gen fh. I would also put Fritz on towards the next gen fh. Whereas zverev and hurkacz are on the modern fh. I don't think it's just the elbow position that makes the next gen fh but also the racket face position on the backswing and how inverted it is with how much racket flip as they swing forward.
That's the challenge, we all have different views/definitions of what a next gen forehand is. Not to say i am the authority by any means, but I defined it as requiring 2 attributes i.e elbow up + racquet facing forward. Sinner and especially Fritz have low elbow positions and therefore I view them as evolved modern forehands. A very large cohort of players using both Modern and Next Gen forehands have integrated the wrist supination aspect and therfore I think it no longer falls into either bucket. Hope that conveys my perspective more clearly.
Agree that it’s awkward looking, but is this the swing that a problem or is it a result of using western and extreme western grips. Don’t think upward movement with nick is an issue. He’s just generating more spin. Finally, these swings and grips offer more topspin potential coupled with the ability to hit the ball harder. With the majority of tennis points are 0-4 shots, is the ability to in 30-40 shot rallies still a relevant metric? It can be argued, the 1st serve is an incredible inconsistent shot, yet no one is arguing for abandoning the 1 st serve? Great vid- would love to see more of your opinions on these “near” next-gen FHs like that of Sinner and Carlos. I had the NGFH classified as when a player points the hitting face of the racquet towards the back fence on take back. In that case Sinner, Carlos, and Joker would all use NGFH.
I'm glad someone finally made this video. I agree 100% that it should not be taught by default to students. But if you are an advanced player and can make it work reliably, go for it! But I would say that for 99% of us it is a bad idea.
I switched from a classix to modern forehand to next gen and I totally disagree. After playing since I was 6, now 55, the next gen forehand generates more power with less effort.. hard to learn, but once mastered, it is a weapon I wish I knew about when I was young. Bjorn Borg had a precursor to this technique. There are multiple takebacks, but it's the same pull racket lag that differentiates it from the other swings, not the high elbow.
I'm going to clear that aspect up in the next video. I was focused on the "Gull wing" style approach and not the wrist supination aspect of the Next Gen forehand.
I will say that it is all about how open minded you are. I never believed that one person is the best all time, it only represents the best of his time. When copy the next gen move, it appears that this move is more simple and cleaner to prepare and the lag effect is so effortlessly to achieve. If any move you need lots of efforts to follow, it is not nature for you. Switch from modern to next gen took minutes, and then switch back from next gen to modern took long time and need to force myself to follow the modern FH basics, telling me the next gen is more complying with human nature. Of course it is also contemporary, and new techniques will appear soon.
I thought I was getting crazy. I've found few people who say this. Telling everyone that hears me that this is why their forehand return stats are so bad. They are late to hit the ball every time. Djokovic is butter smooth to change directions. Next gen are late to change it. The flexed wrist is bad for supination. Picture a pitcher or quarterback with that wrist flexion at the start, they would be out of the league in their first season. I think a big reason for these shots is racket weight. The junior rackets and adult racket that are light let you get away with it. Heavy rackets smooth out your wrist by necessity. I'd love to discuss these technical conversations with you, fan of the game and technical gestures. I stand by the modern forehand as you do. Extended wrist, perfect supination, kinetic chain building the energy, shorter and easier to move with and follow through. A throw to the side. More people need to teach it by what is is. As the serve, the forehand is too a throw but through the side. Do you have an Instagram or Twitter? I'll follow you there and contribute with comments.
I wondered the same for a while, like what am I missing? Then it became clear no one was saying the obvious out loud and I figured someone should do it. I'm only posting here on TH-cam and occasionally on reddit as maintaining one platform is already challenging. What's your IG? Maybe if and when this channel grows I can reach out and look into potentially doing podcast style episodes with guests.
It surprised me to see Sinner in the category Modern Forehand. For me he is one of the extreme examples of the Next Gen Forehand. I guess you have a quite different definition of a Next Gen Forehand than other Tennis TH-camrs.
Dude, you deserve and award for revealing that that the emperor has no clothes. Juniors, club players, and winners should not mess with this garbage. The object of the racket movement is back and forward, not this contorted stuff. After years of dedicated practice, I have taken 100+ players from not being able to hit 3 in a row to competently steady. After the basic shot is learned, we start to add some elbow sophistication to add a bit more snap to their load. If you start with this hyper-topspin parlor trick, you can’t flatten out, take the ball on the rise, or return serve. This is like the John Daly driver swing. Compact is better. Even what you call the modern forehand is too advanced for most beginners.
Lol, that was funny. I certainly agree with your approach (never mind that you carry significant street cred with your background) in that the modern forehand itself is already complex and needs to be taught in stages. Sadly us humans are wired with single core processing power and cannot handle complex multiple functions at once, never mind the months and years of muscle memory and habit forming that comes along with it. Cheers from a fellow Kraut.
The next gen forehand looks like someone is slapping at the ball with an exaggerated wrist pronation to generate a whip-like acceleration. It doesn’t look particularly bio-mechanically efficient or consistent a motion that allows for building good muscle memory, nor does it make much use of the larger muscle groups of the core and legs. Basically, it’s all arm and wrists. Maybe it looks dramatic and cool in a way that convinces players that they are getting more from the shot than they think they are. Or maybe on the margin the exaggerated wrist acceleration does lead to more spin. But I don’t think the trade-off in injury potential, stroke consistency, or additional energy expenditure is worth the effort. But what do I know? I still use a closed stance and hit one-handed backhands? I’m a dinosaur.
NEXT gen forehand same as Your own WTA forehand are both natural ways to hit the ball. Thats exactly why kids are using them naturally They may not be most optimal or efficient and should be corected more.or les but it also depend on player natural abilities like strenght or explosivnes
I'm curious to know if those forehands at high levels cause more wrist injuries, injuries happen and the season is extremely long but like Nick, Jack Sock seemed to have injuries with his very aggressive high rev FH, I don't remember exactly but he was also full Western grip.. it seems like that repeated motion it pretty violent on the wrist especially when people are murdering shots at an avg of 80+ mph up to 100 in rallies. I've tried this FH and when hit clean it's awesome but I do not practice it because I realized it breaks down often on off days or fatigued.
While I do agree on many of your points, I think that is mostly all fine. One of the many things I love about our sport is how many variations of ways a player can win a point...and to me, more extreme grips provide a fun dynamic, otherwise if all players have very consistent strokes, what do you expect happens? We have 100 shot table tennis like rallies back and forth over and over? I'm sorry but watching players like Sinner to me is pretty boring to watch 🤷♂️ Federer/Djokovic/Nadal have lost to many players with next gen forehands. Yes, none of them have 20+ slams but who wants to be a gloryhunter, think we all just want to watch exciting tennis!!!
Sinner 100% has next gen forehand. So much of this video is nonsense. If you can't see that you don't know what a next gen one is. You basically just put up a list of people with the crappier forehands on the pro tour and call it 'next gen" and then pick people - some of whom actually have next gen (Sinner, Novak, Fritz) and call it modern. That poor kid had a funky awful swing and you call it "next gen". Anyone can hit the next gen forehand - just pronate your hand more such that racquet points to the opposing player and then during the foreword swing you supinate it such that you get into the slot - and then pronate again during the swing and finish. Is it a good idea to do this? No. It takes more skill. You have to wait till the last second to get into the slot position and have to have a perfect idea of where the ball is going to be after the bounce. But you get more power and spin. Look at Sinner at 17 and compare to now. He added in the early pronation to "next gen" his forehand.
This is just one man's opinion. NG is not for everyone. At the same time, no avg Joe youtuber should declare NG a garbage, when there are so many high level players adapted that mechanics. And believe me they are already aware of what this man knows.. They are just super duper athletics. But i do agree rec level guys will most likely fail because they don't practice tennis, night in, night out. they don't spend hitting the balls all day, 5 days a week. NG is not garbage, it's just not for everyone.
I'm going to clear up some nuisances of my Next Gen stance in the next video. My point was solely focused on the aggressive Next Gen variation which I will be referring to as the "Gull wing" style approach. That specific approach in particular is garbage and a scam recreational players need to avoid. Yours truly, Joe TH-cam ;-)
@@TK-Tennis lol.. agree about the gull swing. but the ones you are referring to are very small percentage even in pros. Tiafoe and kyriyos(whatever his name is) are really extreme side. And the ones you listed modern are incorrect. Sinner and Alcaraz's take backs are more close to NG than modern and their mechanics are clean. That little kid's coach for sure is a garbage as well. at such young age, it might mess up his shoulder, elbow, and wrist.. Hitting with loose muscle is critical element, but not like that.. That crap belongs to somewhere in Tai Chi.. which is anther garbage.. lol
Watching videos that announce biomechanical analysis; but then do not include any biomechanical principles, let alone the calculations necessary to demonstrate mechanical advantage
The Next Gen forehand is the same as Fed's modern forehand when the ball is high. The next gen forehand keeps that elbow high on low balls which makes no sense. I do think that Alcaraz's forehand has the same weaknesses as the Next Gen forehand. He hits a lot of balls up especially when he's rushed and even when the ball is just a couple of steps away from him. Carlos's excessive torsional load on the unit turn creates a very large loop and so he's late a lot. As a result, he does that ugly bunny hop buggy whip a lot. Sinner exposed his weak forehand in Riyadh. As far as Sampras goes, yes he did have a high elbow position but he didn't have the pat the dog and lag. It's similar but not fundamentally the same. But I agree with you, the Next Gen forehand is junk.
Federer does not hit a next gen when the ball is high. Fed would never raise his elbow like that, and dip the racquet, on a high ball. He still takes the racquet back with the elbow lower, but then unleashes with a straight high arm.
That list is simply false. The majority of people on that list do not have a modern forehand. Esp sinner and Alcaraz. The characteristics of a modern forehand is that the tip is up and the racquet drops. You seem to have categorized the next gen as a high elbow. Which is some respects is a fair assumption but all these next gen forehands are different. The main consistent thing about the modern forehand is the racket dropping from and up motion using gravity assistance and the main consistent thing about next gen is the racquet flip either facing behind the fence or at an angle which rafa and roger dont do. Sinner, Alcaraz even novak now all have the tip face forward and flip the racket to the back fence to increase the length. But there is zero gravity assistance in that stroke. The racquet flips with strings pointing behind. Which is now the power position which is the next gen forehand. Very few people this in 2000 or 2010. Tennis unleashed and play your court provides a far better explanation on whats classified as next gen and why coaches teach this. Tiafoe is just a poor explain as there are many unnecessary movement. But loading the racquet with strings facing the back fence is a far more controlled and consistent motion than a racquet drop as shown by sinner.
Totally agree. Zverev, Dimitrov and Federer play an eastern to mild semi-western grip and they all get the racket and the elbow up before dropping and then accelerating. Zverev has his elbow slightly higher than Dimitrov and he has it slightly higher than Federer but aside from that the fundamentals are exactly the same. I'm also not a fan of tilting the wrist like Khachanov, Musetti, Tommy Paul and of course Tiafoe but these are not the defintion of next gen forehands.
@@nitrooo123 yeah looks like this old youtuber read that old article on why next gen sucks from a few years ago. Didn't actually bother to actually study it or even try it him self. Then makes a whole video to incite the older generation to justify that the old stroke is better with out understanding the fundamentals of the next gen. He simply picked on the bad parts that specific players do and determined it doesn't work while classifying players with a next gen into the modern to try prove a point. If he would actually bother to watch college tennis every single d1 player uses the next gen. The majority of the top 50 uses the next gen. He simply has no idea that it's not about a high elbow or weird take back. And if world class coaches have no problem with it (not talking about tiafoe) then he simply has no idea what he's on about. It's okay. It's why the even older generation did when they first saw the modern forehand. They deemed that it isn't affective n that classic is better lol.
PINNED COMMENT: Thanks for watching and for hearing me out on how I oppose the aggressive Next Gen forehand in today's game (which going forward I will reference as “Gull wing” forehand). You may not agree and that's OK, but realize my intent is meant to be constructive in the hopes that people will implement good stroke mechanics in the pursuit of hitting consistent shots with confidence.
Apologies for the misspelling of "Kyrgios" , that was a sloppy oversight on my part.
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It's Kyrgios not Kyrios. He's not retired either yet... Agree with the video though.
Yup - break it down brother. Knowledge is Pow 💥 ah !
@@marcg-rj8co The 'G' isn't pronounced. You know that, right?
@chuckfriebe843 yes but we aren't spelling people's names phonetically or else every name could be spelled differently
From my perspective as a 4.0 63 years old player Karue Sell's technique looks very clean, efficient, not overloaded but straight forward even if his forehand is not "great" or "perfect". But it looks reliable and effortless. Wolud be nice to see an analysis of what he is doing..
A while back I did a video on his game and his "Superpowers", you can find it here: th-cam.com/video/gfDf75-OhG0/w-d-xo.html
@@TK-Tennis Watched it today. Thanks a lot. This "adaptive backswing" thing I think is his secret weapon 👍
Best players in the world can make millions of dollars with this technique. I wouldn’t call it a scam but it’s not for everyone and shouldn’t be taught initially to juniors.
There is no correct way to hit a forehand. It depends on what works for each individual player 😊
In fact there's a correct technique and many valid styles, tennis is very technical. Once a player master the technique and pick the right style it will notice the difference.
100% agree with this video. Tennis is about consistency. Why create a complicated "wind up" for inconsistent results? It's as if the people who promote this thing tell players that it won't always work, but when it does...look out! I say this being 35+ veteran of the sport who uses a "classic" forehand.
In the 1980s I was a grad student at UNC Chapel Hill. Their library carried back issues of _Athletic Journal_ and in 1960 or 1962 Jack Kramer published an article titled "The Modern Forehand." From this article I learned that the modern forehand is a flat shot hit with a "shake-hands" grip and a firm wrist.
LOL. The tennis overlords seem to struggle with creating nomenclature that stands the test of time
@@TK-TennisNo. It’s simply an article describing a development of the game at that time. A game which is still developing as proven by the production of this video.
that would be referred to as a classic FH today. The game is always evolving with new equipment and new technique. the game is much faster today reason the next gen forehand dominates the ATP tour not modern FH. Next gen allows for a more compact stroke that is quicker to execute than a modern FH that has a longer loopier FH. Next Gen shortens the stroke uses more kinetic chain less moving parts less time to execute only looks like a longer stroke since players get the arm & elbow up sooner as they move to the ball. Rick Massey teaches the Next gen forehand has been for over a decade
I think it comes down to this: All things being equal, which will fail first - simple, efficient, minimal extra steps technique OR the overly complicated "Rube Goldberg Machine" technique? In a neutral rally on a big point, which will miss first? Kyrgios and Tiafoe are spectacular athletes with sick hand-eye coordination, which is why they will get wins over 99% of tennis players. But when they face people who are in the same range of athleticism and talent that have simpler technique, the complicated technique is more likely to fail on the big points that often determine match outcomes. And since it seems far more big points are decided by errors instead of winners, the player with the uncomplicated technique is more likely to not miss when the pressure is on. And that's often what we see play out in the matches Kyrgios and Tiafoe lose.
I think Novak Djokovic is the perfect example of how better technique makes better players. Nole was already so talented that he reached #3 in the world and won a Slam with poor FH and serve technique. Then when he cleaned those up, he reaches a whole 'nother level and becomes the GOAT of tennis. So no matter how good you are, you'll always be better with better technique if you are able to change to it.
Well said. "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." - da Vinci
Kyrgios and Tiafoe are undeniably exceptional athletes, but let's not act like they are even remotely in the same wheelhouse as even Sinner or Alcaraz are, let alone greats like Murray, Federer, Nadal, Thiem, Wawrinka, or Dimitrov.
Pretty much, in Tennis you need to be an all rounder and cover every aspect of the game to be able to win consistently. Its the same for Federer and Nadal, they all started with some high end qualities in certain aspect of their game and only truly become dominant in other surfaces once they improve their weakness. Djokovic is probably the player that has the best all round abilities.
If Roger is,
Serve - 9
FH - 10
BH - 6
Speed - 7
Stamina - 8
Touch - 10
Nadal is,
Serve - 7
FH - 9
BH - 9
Speed - 10
Stamina - 10
Touch - 6
Djokovic is,
Serve - 9
FH - 9
BH - 9
Speed - 8
Stamina - 9
Touch - 8
Djokovic may not have the best ability in a single category but he has the overall better all around ability. This is a rough scoring and concept but you get my point. In Tennis you need to cover all areas to be consistent. People are attracted to a single aspect that shines. Like when you see John Isner or Karlovic servers or Kyrgios and Jack Sock smack powerful rocket forehands, but those abilities alone won't win you games. To have that kind of tall and heavy body to serve powerfully, is going to cost you some aspect in movement, to have that kind of awkward next gen forehand motion to hit powerful forehands is going to cost you more preparation time and compromise on your speed or ability to return balls from awkward position and posture your opponent puts you into.
The thing about tennis is that your opponent doesn't always give you time and the best setup. Its easy to look strong and powerful in practice when you are fed with easy balls. In real match, the quality of the balls from your opponent and the strategy to place them will prevent you from hitting your best shots. Next gen forehand technique isn't good at cover many aspect of the game and situations.
@ Agree. Nole is technically proficient at just about everything on the court. His ONLY weakness is his forehand overhead which has cost him a few big matches over his career. But opponents cannot consistently target that weakness as a game plan to beat him. Which is why he wins so much!
actually the next gen is the simpler stroke less moving parts and more compact than the modern FH that has a longer loopier back swing. Djokovic has many elements of next Gen FH majority of ATP players have next Gen incl sinner alcaraz ruud some are more extreme on their technique with some super high elbow, wierd hitches in their stroke others smoother more compact
I really like this type of content. It's fresh, it's unorthodox, it's provoking and it's actually in most parts true. If you look at top 10 pro players, there maybe two-three of them who would I describe "tennis technique" role models. It's Djokovic, Dimitrov and from the youngest gen I consider Jannik Sinner also player with very good technique. The other guy's technique in my opinion is in many aspects flawed, but it works (for them).
The thing with tennis technique is that there is nothing like a perfect technique or technique to "copy/paste". Every single human being is original. Everyone has different sense of time and space. Everyone has different skeletal and muscle build. All these details determine how players move, how they see tennis ball and how they see not only themselves, but also others.
So "the next gen" forehand thing is in my opinion a scam because there is no next gen forehand in the first place. It's just a coincidence of motions. I'm also coaching and the best example is when you get to someone who is a natural talent. You don't teach him a particular technique. He figures it out himself. He just needs to follow some basic steps and rules like hitting early, early loading phase and mostly how to move and position himself on court.
With that said, what is your opinion on this young 14 year old guy who started playing tennis when he was 12,5 years old. So just 1,5 year in the process and he looks like he was playing at least 5 years. No one told him this technique adn still it looks pretty awesome, very modern. Maybe he learnd it while watching other players but he didn't copy anyone, it just makes the most sense to him, his body and his brain to hit the ball like this. Check it out here and let me know your opinion. th-cam.com/video/8SUU-0rTDq0/w-d-xo.html
Couldn't agree more with paragraph 2 & 3 particularly when it comes to teaching young players. There would be no Rafa if someone was able to steer him away from his natural stroke mechanics. However sometimes the influence of Pros like in the case with Kyrgios and his next gen forehand, kids can end up following and enhancing those poor stoke mechanics to a point where it will fail for the vast majority of players. There is a delicate balance when developing a junior between placing them too firmly into some conformed expectation versus letting them develop into their own Frankenstein.
I watched your video-kudos on your temperament! I really appreciate your calm delivery. The young man’s strokes look fantastic, particularly the forehand. I think his inconsistency-between hitting flawless shots and the occasional wild miss-comes down to undeveloped anticipation/positioning and still-building muscle memory. Have him hit 1,000+ balls daily to refine his coordination, and he’ll be leveling up consistently in no time.
Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts! 👋
if you come from Czechia ,you're an above average tennis player off the bat😀...seriously though..the way you guys teach tennis is the best in the world in my opinion....
@@lszujo Yeah, I'm from Czechia. I think we have a great new generation of players, finally on men's side as well. Macháč, Lehečka, Menšík in TOP 50. And 7 women in TOP 50. We cannot complain right now. I think the Czechs have a very good combination of tough mentality and hard working spirit as well. And one of the biggest things is that our children start on clay, which is a very hard surface to master. And at the same time this surface gives you many miss bounces and you have to make corrections all the time and you have to focus a lot more compared to hard-courts. That's why so many Europian players are so good. Clay just makes you tougher. Americans should start teaching tennis on clay as well, otherwise they will lose in a long term.
@@TK-Tennis Thank you for your reply 👍
For an older player (60), the McEnroe FH and BH swing is great for me, especially for double, since we would try to get to the net.
Can’t help to compare this to the “modern” baseball swing where players are sacrificing consistent contact for launch angle and home runs. Strikeouts are up and averages are down in an attempt to hit the ball in the air instead of on a line.
That is a fair comp 👍. I think the reward in Baseball is higher and the analytics probably back that up, whereas in Tennis consistency + power is the winning formula, at least in the Men's game
8:19 I was going to disagree with you on next gen forehands, but when I saw that we just have different definitions of what a next gen forehand is (Carlos and Sinner have next gen forehand in my opinion, especially Carlos as he has his elbow at the same height of his shoukder) then I would tend to agree. The kyrgios/Tiafoe style forehand is not good for amateurs and I would say that it is less powerful and consistent than Alcaraz's technique or Federer/Nadal which makes it inferior in every way.
Carlos and Sinner do not have a next gen. We don't all get to make up our own definition of it. 😂
@@MichaelDamianPHD if any, it's close to NG than modern. Not extreme NG but it's more like hybrid. Definitely not traditional modern for sure. th-cam.com/video/F18VBTKIUro/w-d-xo.html
Alcaraz's is not a Next Gen FH. The racket is slightly tilted forward but still elbow below the racket head. Sort of a middle ground. More stabile and not as loopy and herky jerky as the Next Gen.
@@ntnnot actually he is combination of the two and next gen FH are not loopy but more compact racquet stays more to the side and front of the body uses trunk rotation to whip through the shot with a windshield wiper finish motion. basically they just bring their elbow up keeping it bent as they move to the shot and coil then just straighten and drop their arm as they uncoil into the shot the trunk rotation whips the arm creates the racquet lag and flip some players just have some extreme quirky hitches of this stroke others much smoother like ruud just about every atp player now using variation of next gen forehand Gregor Dimitrov Djokovic sinner
Fully agree with the speaker. I would never train my kid with this kind a forhand. More over it's terrible for staying healthy, for sure you will get injured. Tennis is played with body and shoulders and hand and wrist would need to have natural swing not that next gen scam :)
IMO the biggest difference between the next-gen forehand and the modern forehand is the the racquet head pointing direction. If the racquet head points forward when initiates the swing, that's basically the next-gen forehand. Therefore, Carlos and Jannik are both next-gen forehand, Novak is a modern forehand. Next Gen forehand has the flick motion which Carlos, Jannik, Tiafoe, Tommy Paul... all have that. To me, what you described in the video is just one variant of the next-gen forehand, it doesn't represent all next-gen forehands
I agree, and that's why I referred to this variant as an "Aggressive next gen" forehand, which in hindsight maybe "over-pronounced next gen forehand" or something like that would be more appropriate. I also would also suggest a true next gen forehand also requires the "Elbow up" position combined with the forward facing racquet head.
@ I agree the elbow up part. But if that’s the case, the video title should be aggressive next gen forehand. Right now the title is misleading, people would think you are saying all next gen forehands are scam.
Especially the chart you provided, not putting Carlos and Jannik in the next gen forehand category seems questionable.
Just my 2 cents.
@@ulunxtns I understand your point of view, but the challenge is everyone seems to have their view or definition of what the next gen forehand is, not to say my definition is the authority. In this video I defined it as elbow up combined with the forward facing racquet (for the sake of simplicity). If a player has both of these attributes on their forehand then I do take the position that it's a scam. Hope that helps clear it up.
In an upcoming video I will highlight my position why Sinner and Carlos are not hitting a next gen forehand.
@@TK-Tennis Tomas Machas has a very "aggressive next-gen" forehand. But it works and is devastating. Don't you think so?
@@TK-Tennis Yes please do analysis alcaraz since his elbow is equal to his shoulder until initiation of forward swing
You can agree or disagree with his video, but it is undeniable that at 8:14 in the video every player on the right side of the table has a better forehand than the guys on the left side (except maybe Khachanov, and Machac)
Nice hitting clips on your channel 👍
Disagree with kachanov, i always saw like His fh technique prevent Him of having better angles and power, it looks jerky and forced a Lot of times
I remember Yevgeny Kafelnikov in the 1990s having a super high elbow in the take-back, although I don’t think his racket pointed forward.
Former teaching pro here (back in the 90s). Speaking of swing paths, I always taught beginners to hit through the ball first vs brushing up. Keep the swing path more consistent and "feel" the solid shots. Some other pro taught some beginners to swing like Rafa (pre-Nadal when I taught but increased topspin was becoming more popular) before they came into my junior groups. Not only did they have longer backswings, they were constantly shanking the ball or making poor contact on their shots due to the swing path angle. They didn't learn how to hit through the ball first. Looking at these "modern" forehands, I'd take Agassi's forehand over most of them!
Are you saying that when people start with hitting through the ball, they don't frequently whack it out of the court or into the net, due to flatness? That certainly was my experience! But I appreciate the idea that brushing up should not be overemphasized at first.
@@MichaelDamianPHD No. Not what I'm saying. Yes, hitting flatter will result in balls in the net or long at times. Again, I'm talking about beginning players and progressions. Simple to more advanced and understanding along the way. You still have a little bit of low to high & can get natural topspin via the "old school" strokes. The idea is to have the racquet "path" be more linear through the ball toward the target so you get better ball feel, accuracy (directional control), and success early on. From there, you can gradually develop your strokes and advance to more modern swings with more topspin.
I have been teaching and coaching for 50 years. You are totally correct. Excellent analysis.
Thank you! Part 2 is coming to clarify some aspects of the video where I should have been more clear.
are you still teaching the classic forehand with continental grip finish above your shoulder? I see lots of instructors still teaching that. The game is different today if you want to play at a high level next gen forehand is the ticket and it doesn't have to look like tiafoe or Tommy paul, musetti or Kyrios nor should it be taught like that those guys have extreme elbow elevation and wierd hitches. Rick Massey teaches the next gen FH it works very well for anyone with semi to western. can find him on youtube
Really good video with lots of sensible points.
Encouraging lower skilled players to use “next gen” techniques of often detrimental to their game.
I'd like to see the breakdown of the modern forehand!!
This video gives me more confidence playing flatter with the eastern grip. I prefer flatter with power and depth vs all topspin all the time.
It's not a shot I would advise to amateurs for sure. It requires the right body and lot of practice. Furthermore it can lead more easily to injuries. I've read that the same Kyrgios has just recovered from a 2 years very serious injury at the wrist. If you look at how he hits the shot, you can guess that there is some correlation.
It's useful sometimes for getting a little extra whip power out of your stroke. If you're running cross court you can also start winding up for a stroke like this and get a bit extra on the ball to hit it deeper down the line for example. I wouldn't do it all the time, but if you have the time, it can feel really nice and give you that extra whip.
Very good point, and players like Sampras and Lendl turned the running forehands into weapons. Their forehands however did not have that high "gull wing" style many players today use.
You should do a video about the modern vs next gen backhand aswell . Btw great video
Great vid, very informative. Yes, please do one on the modern forehand, and on the evolution of the modern forehand. Would be very useful. Thanks
Not evolution of the Modern per say, but I posted a follow-up here: th-cam.com/video/QWGSJ7NPx0Q/w-d-xo.html&lc=Ugzw9dDbgbZhnznLI2t4AaABAg. Thanks for watching
Superb Analysis
Can’t wait for the Sinner Alcaraz forehand analysis
👍. I'm going to clarify some positions and some inaccuracies in the upcoming Sinner/Alcaraz vid.
I totally agree with you. I always thought the Next Gen Forehand method was very weird and not pretty to look at. After watching your video, I found it to be less efficient. I don't think there's any reason for new players to blindly follow it. It's not even cool!
I do agree with some points but as the other guy said “different strokes for different folks” as long as you’re winning that’s all that matters but yes it shouldn’t be taught to those it doesn’t come natural to..
Especially with juniors it's important to guide players with their natural strokes while avoiding the development of bad habits 👋
@@TK-Tennis it’s the type of stroke that needs to come natural I can totally agree with that viewpoint as it will harm the junior more than help..Great point as a coach myself I adapt how I teach to what comes natural tennis coaching is not a one size fits all..If a coach is trying to teach all his/her juniors this technique it’s time to find a new coach..
Another benefit of the next gen forehand in my opinion, would that it allows you to manage heavier rackets for longer periods as you are not lifting the head of the racket on every single forehand swing.
Lets see this breakdown of Alcaraz and Sinner
I would counter that a longer swing path, combined with a heavier object in motion, increases inertia, making it harder for a player to alter their swing direction quickly. This restricts the ability to make the fine adjustments that tennis often demands. Sinner and Alcaraz are on the docket 👍
I love Grigor and Ruud's forehands. Very clean and repeatable.
I concur with Grigor's, but while Ruud's forehand is devastating I don't find it at all appealing.
Would love to see a video on the evolution of the modern forehand!
That may be outside of my sphere of knowledge and there maybe better people to highlight this. I like the idea and if/when confident enough, I can embark on it.
Next Gen?
I hv had that FH since the 70's!!
We were taught to hit through the ball.
If u wanna hit through the ball, must keep the racket head high.
Modern game nowadays, hitting from low to high, brushing effect.
Some players trying this high elbow, high racket head, but trying to hit low to high... which don't work.
Also, now, most players hv low tension strings.. gd for topspins, since topspins are more forgiving.
My racket are strung at 68lbs.
'Flat-ish' hit... slight topspin towards the end of the impact...
Yes, I'd totally like to see the modern forehand video. Subscribed btw.
a vid on the one hander would be appreciated as well.
That will be fun, Gasquet, Fed, Dmitrov, Wawrinka and maybe T-Pas?
@@TK-Tennis sure! You could analyze the great dj7oya (lack of) technique as well, but I'm afraid it will blow your mind
Perfect analysis, Totally agreed
Boris Becker said that what happens prior to the ball strike is irrelevant if you are consistently early. The top pros are usually early on the ball. Best forehands of all time from a technical standpoint include David Nalbandian, Gregor Dimitrov, Marcos Baghdatis. Nalbandian’s forehand was simply incredible.
Nalbandian and Fed FTW when it comes to beautiful effortless technique. I don't think anyone beats that pair.
Grigor has changed his forehand over past years closer to the next gen forehand now
For some reason the next gen forehand only works for me when I use Yonex Racquets or racquets with smaller head size in general. My modern forehand works better with 100 inch size racquets like Babolat Aero Pro Drive and Dunlop SX300.
I do not play tennis yet but find this video very interesting. I looked up the classic forehand technique and John McEnroe was one of the players listed as using a classic forehand. The classic forehand seems more efficient just curious why coaching moved away from it?
Thank you for the great video! Please break down Alcaraz and Sinner forehands. How are they "modern" vs "next gen"?
Posted: th-cam.com/video/QWGSJ7NPx0Q/w-d-xo.html&lc=Ugzw9dDbgbZhnznLI2t4AaABAg
@ that’s awesome thank you!
I’d say the biggest problem with hitting with a closed face type of shot is it’s super easy to shank balls. Them being pro they get to practice it all the time paradoxically. It creates a very spiny heavier shot. But it’s very tough to create power while changing directions . As far as comparing that type of shot to Sampras and Lendl I’d have to disagree you cannot achieve a ball like that with a continental grip. Personally I’d prefer hitting through the ball taking time as much as possible from opponents vs that much spin. It’s not a scam if it wins them high six figures and millions of dollars excluding titles Grand slams. But I’ve played a few players who hit with that style and it’s good but it’s not the most efficient way.
Some players use strokes similar to the Gull Wing style strokes of today with a Continental or Eastern Grips, although how the racquet contacts the ball is more towards the outside of the ball and not nearly as aggressive in the low-to-high angle of attack. The preparation is somewhat similar in that they all have some Gull Wing characteristics in preparation, but addressing the ball is slightly different. Both Lendl and Sampras has Eastern forehand grips, although I played with a top 150 player during my time working at Lendl's club and he somehow still was able to hit topspin effectively by hitting the outside of the ball and his swing was just like Ivan's.
And that's right, I often mention if someone has enough time and practice they can make it work all the way to the bank.
I also have to agree with this one, I realize that "elbow up" is very situational and does not need to be forced and happens naturally, for example when you are in front of the net and the ball comes high, my elbow automatically and naturally goes up by itself.
Great breakdown. Andre Agassi was described as a "clean" ball striker. You're spot on, consistency is king, KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) still applies. Compelling contrast of players at the top levels Your point about pressure exposing flaws is well taken (illustrates the absence of grand slam titles) and failure to grasp the next level. Thanks for the heads up.
You need the racquet face open as much as possible in the preparation, because in case timing is off, you still want to be able to make contact, that’s why Federer Nadal Djokovic, Andy Murray, their forehands are going to be more efficient
I agree 100%. I would caution younger players developing and growing that the biomechanics of this 'technique' might lead to injury. And it's super inconsistent under pressure - while trying to get as much power as possible at sometimes the wrong time.
It looks like a FULL DRY BODY HEAVE SET TO MUSIC....SWEET FANCY MOSES!!
Clearly it is repeatable if you can make it to the top of the game!
I like that you can hit any way you want (presumably no coach forced NK to hit his FH like he does) and we get to see if it works or not in the matches, not a coach rigidly telling you to stick within whatever they think is right. I agree the junior (or his coach) in this vid has probably been too focused on using some prescribed technique, rather than finding his own way. But IME juniors like to pick up and copy techniques and will then drop them just as quickly on their journey of finding their own.
Tiafoe, Kyrigios, Paul all have that swing and I don’t see it being consistently effective.
When you watch the video of Federer or Sinner in their early/junior years, it's noticeable how much less "flipping" they do with their forehands, suggesting that they developed this technique later more naturally.
I think one way to avoid having to categorise players is to talk about this biomechanically. The high elbow seems like a good starting point for discussion. With high elbow, the forearm usually stays at the same level as the elbow (if the forearm is higher than elbow, then it's more of a classic forehand with higher preparation, such as Del Potro or Nalbandian). So now the variations come from the hand/wrist position. In all cases, the forehand needs to end up in the the "slot" position. As you point out, the aggressive next gen forehand is the position from which it takes longest path to the slot position, hence your point about its effectiveness.
I like these technique breakdowns more than product reviews.
Can you do a video on how to have a consistent heavy forehand? I played a tournament recently and had a lot of errors that I don't usually make during rallies. I realized I need to have a consistent heavy shot as a backup during tight points
Thanks and I enjoy doing these videos more than product review as well, with the exception of string reviews.
The challenge is to play tournaments the same way you practice. Tournaments and the stresses of match play have a way of making players question everything. I have a pending video on which forehands should be emulated, stayed tuned and thanks for watching.
@@TK-TennisI want to know which forehands to emulate!
@@TK-Tennis Yeah. I second guess my shots during matches. Especially with several being out.
Good vid. Forgot to mention next gen leads to lazy footwork, which also will be a detriment to your game. It makes you more reliant on your arm over hip drive/getting in the chair
Good video. One question: specifically, WHY does the next gen forehand create a lot of power? I know you mentioned that the next gen swing is quite long. Is that THE reason? A lot of young junior players have very long backswings where the backswing crossed the line behind them (6 o'clock) and the racquet points to 7 or even 8 o'clock. The kids make this very long backswing to try to get more power. So the next gen forehand is also a long swing, but instead of being behind the player, it is out in front of the player (racquet pointing toward the net, on the hitting side of the body). So perhaps the kids are trying to make a long swing but keep the racquet on the hitting side (as many coaches now encourage), and the next gen technique would be a way to accomplish that. Also, I'm thinking that at least part of the power from the next gen forehand comes from the increased wrist lag that would result in the racquet head pointing in front of the player at the moment of transition from backswing to foreward swing. If you enter into this change of direction phase with the racquet pointing toward the target, you can use the full weight of the racquet to help facilitate a ton of lag. Just a thought.
Having tested and compared a few techniques myself I would say that it comes from the wrist lag/snap...so I agree with what you wrote...but of course a long swing path can be used to create more power...but that´s not what the next gen forehand is about IMHO...
I feel like Andy Roddick popularized the face-forward power forehand.
Indeed, he would be another excellent example 👋
I agree with you.its ugly and annoying to watch .few extra unnessary moves ,it affects the timing and it tires the shoulder, wrist -and it is energy -draining stroke! And it breaks down under pressure points!
Excellent points. And yes, please do the modern evolution!!!!!
Couldn’t agree more. Well done.
I think Zverev and Alcaraz have 2 of the best forehands right now and both of theirs have elbow on shoulder height. I feel that it’s much more easier to get power plus spin on next gen forehand. I think whatever is natural is what you should swing with that being modern or next gen.
Great video, I always thought the Mahac forehand looked weird like he was swinging from waist height. I must say that I highly doubt that most pros have practiced for “tens of thousands” of hours.
They have, it's in the math. If you practice 2, 3 or 4 hours a day, 6 days a week for 20 years it adds up to well over 10,000 hours and can surpass 20-25k hours over their careers. Food for thought.
2 hours/day: 12,480 hours
3 hours/day: 18,720 hours
4 hours/day: 24,960 hours
As for Machac I am always so torn watching him play, such an amazing mover and incredible ball striker but with a forehand that makes me smile and cringe all at the same time
@ Sheesh that’s incredible, makes me wonder what I’ve been doing with my whole life🤦🏽♂️😂 Would you say that the quality of the practice is more important than the quantity?
Right, you could have just spent all that time training for the chance to make the tour ;-).
No, as much as I would like to believe quality is king, with all other things being equal (Training, effort, fitness, talent) quantity is more critical, particularly more so for junior who are trying to make the tour. Even with less the ideal technique there are countless players who have succeeded at the top ranks of the pros from determination and dedication and some physical gifts alone. However for adult rec. players quality and doing things the most efficient way has more weight, although quantity/time is still as important.
Not that it really matters, but conspicuously absent from your list of the usual suspects are Sock and Draper, both names that I, at least, view as synonymous with the whole next-gen phenomenon and the sorta’ poster-boys for it together with Kyrgios.
My list was wholly incomplete and in some aspects unclear and inaccurate. I'm working on a follow up video to clarify some aspects
Please do a breakdown of the modern forehand!
Check out the follow up video here: th-cam.com/video/QWGSJ7NPx0Q/w-d-xo.htmlsi=BUkag2XFZFqYRcfR
When Kyrgios plays tennis it IS about looking amazing😂
I started playing only 5 years ago and experimented a lot
I agree, this type of forehand should not be copied by recreationals, and if a tennis coach teaches you this forehand sue him 🤭
I wonder what Djokovic was thinking when he saw that little kid yanking that ball all around? LOL
1:55 that *_IS_* painful!!
Medvedev’s forehand should belong in its own unique category
I don’t know how kids hit these forehands. They’re so hard to time. A standard forehand is as effective and is the best of both worlds when it comes to margin and depth, however much of which that you’re trying to achieve.
There are two guys in the top 10 that come to mind with a VERY pronounced high elbow position, Zverev and Alcaraz. I don't even need to comment on the quality of these two forehands. Moral of the lesson, if you get more power and spin from that high elbow position and you like it, DO IT.
For Alcaraz, the racquet is way above the elbow and mostly pointing up not forward, so it's not what he's discussing as a modern forehand.
@8:12 Nick "Kirios" (Retired) 😂😂
Generally agree. It works for players who are exceptionally gifted(Kyrgios), but it's suboptimal for most players, especially non-pros. Many have also gotten away with it because of a generation of slow balls/slower hard courts/crazy spinny strings(IMO bad for the game if it's like that every week), which slow the game down and give them more time. As they've sped up courts/balls a bit in the last year, you're seeing guys like Fritz with classic forehands have more success.
Also some people in the comments talking about Carlos...his forehand is way closer to Federer's classic forehand than the next gen forehand. Also would say T. Paul doesn't really have a next gen forehand(save for his initial wrist movement, his loop and extension are more modern).
as a high school starting varsity player, the next gen forehand is great for me.
Good deal, thanks for watching and for keeping an open-mind. If you feel it's working for you and your level of play is consistently solid day in and day out, then keep at it 👍.
@ yeah, I’m pretty consistent execpt when I hit it out, at least tonight I hit the nastiest around the net shot
@@snowy9635 do you actually think that being a high school player makes you an authority. “Great” is a very lofty term.
@@alexandermayer2026 wdym? I’m simply stating what level I have played at and stating something idk it’s not that deep
@@alexandermayer2026 I don’t even think I’m that good at the game
I agree with you about these elaborate backswings. I much prefer Fed's, Fognini, Sell, Agassi, etc. Tiafoe does it about as simply as possible I would say. Sinner also. I would personally put Sinner in the Next Gen technique category.
I should have referenced Fognini as a comp too 👋. Are you joking about Tiafoe?
@TK-Tennis I know Tiafoe looks weird, but to me, if you were to watch only his hand movement from prep to contact, it is actually pretty compact. But I certainly would not recommend his technique to anyone.
Another player with the very compact efficient technique was the wasted talent Tomic.
That's fair and true, although he's also very strong and only a very small percentage of players could replicate his form/technique 👋
I totally agree, I can watch this in my home Club. The shots are going short, but with much spin. Actually these guys are Young and It good shape.But, if the game becomes fast, there is no time for preparation. To many unforced errors inmo
I’m a tennis beginner but it looks like Nick is twisting when jumping up. That’s kind of a basketball thing but you can get lots of power from it. Probably on par with what you get from stepping through the shot but like you said less consistentcy.
In todays game all players with semi-western and western grips load up their rear legs, hit open-stance and have upwards thrust on the majority of shots to impart topspin. That's simply proper technique in today's game, but the next gen forehand causes this movement to be excessively aggressive thereby reducing consistency. Keep hitting the courts and welcome to the game 👋
Im just surprised that the next gen forehand hasnt resulted in a lot of injuries. Maybe on juniors it does but i wouldnt know about junior play
Good point. It would seem logical that the more complex the stroke the more injuries you would see due to the effect of hitting the ball late more often. I think many people will wonder if the new Moden forehand with all the wrist supination will do the same 🤷♂
@TK-Tennis I used to play forehands with the wta forehand and I developed tennis elbow. Now that I use the next generation forehand i do not get tennis elbow.
@@bigboytennis1 all else the same? string racquet etc?
@marcosvivoni1944 yep
@@bigboytennis1 interesting
high elbow away from body results in that type of forehand its a solution for too long backswing/breaking the plane, wta type of old school swing, so they try to achieve something opposite to what you are saying - short compact swing i guess or am I wrong
I would disagree with a few on your list. Sinner is definitely on the next gen fh. I would also put Fritz on towards the next gen fh. Whereas zverev and hurkacz are on the modern fh.
I don't think it's just the elbow position that makes the next gen fh but also the racket face position on the backswing and how inverted it is with how much racket flip as they swing forward.
That's the challenge, we all have different views/definitions of what a next gen forehand is. Not to say i am the authority by any means, but I defined it as requiring 2 attributes i.e elbow up + racquet facing forward. Sinner and especially Fritz have low elbow positions and therefore I view them as evolved modern forehands. A very large cohort of players using both Modern and Next Gen forehands have integrated the wrist supination aspect and therfore I think it no longer falls into either bucket. Hope that conveys my perspective more clearly.
Agree that it’s awkward looking, but is this the swing that a problem or is it a result of using western and extreme western grips. Don’t think upward movement with nick is an issue. He’s just generating more spin. Finally, these swings and grips offer more topspin potential coupled with the ability to hit the ball harder. With the majority of tennis points are 0-4 shots, is the ability to in 30-40 shot rallies still a relevant metric? It can be argued, the 1st serve is an incredible inconsistent shot, yet no one is arguing for abandoning the 1 st serve? Great vid- would love to see more of your opinions on these “near” next-gen FHs like that of Sinner and Carlos. I had the NGFH classified as when a player points the hitting face of the racquet towards the back fence on take back. In that case Sinner, Carlos, and Joker would all use NGFH.
I'm glad someone finally made this video. I agree 100% that it should not be taught by default to students. But if you are an advanced player and can make it work reliably, go for it! But I would say that for 99% of us it is a bad idea.
I switched from a classix to modern forehand to next gen and I totally disagree. After playing since I was 6, now 55, the next gen forehand generates more power with less effort.. hard to learn, but once mastered, it is a weapon I wish I knew about when I was young. Bjorn Borg had a precursor to this technique. There are multiple takebacks, but it's the same pull racket lag that differentiates it from the other swings, not the high elbow.
I'm going to clear that aspect up in the next video. I was focused on the "Gull wing" style approach and not the wrist supination aspect of the Next Gen forehand.
This coach teaching run the football. It worked in my day.. probably the same guy screaming you go to get to the net 15 years ago
I will say that it is all about how open minded you are. I never believed that one person is the best all time, it only represents the best of his time. When copy the next gen move, it appears that this move is more simple and cleaner to prepare and the lag effect is so effortlessly to achieve. If any move you need lots of efforts to follow, it is not nature for you. Switch from modern to next gen took minutes, and then switch back from next gen to modern took long time and need to force myself to follow the modern FH basics, telling me the next gen is more complying with human nature. Of course it is also contemporary, and new techniques will appear soon.
I thought I was getting crazy. I've found few people who say this. Telling everyone that hears me that this is why their forehand return stats are so bad. They are late to hit the ball every time. Djokovic is butter smooth to change directions. Next gen are late to change it. The flexed wrist is bad for supination. Picture a pitcher or quarterback with that wrist flexion at the start, they would be out of the league in their first season.
I think a big reason for these shots is racket weight. The junior rackets and adult racket that are light let you get away with it. Heavy rackets smooth out your wrist by necessity.
I'd love to discuss these technical conversations with you, fan of the game and technical gestures. I stand by the modern forehand as you do. Extended wrist, perfect supination, kinetic chain building the energy, shorter and easier to move with and follow through. A throw to the side. More people need to teach it by what is is. As the serve, the forehand is too a throw but through the side.
Do you have an Instagram or Twitter? I'll follow you there and contribute with comments.
I wondered the same for a while, like what am I missing? Then it became clear no one was saying the obvious out loud and I figured someone should do it. I'm only posting here on TH-cam and occasionally on reddit as maintaining one platform is already challenging. What's your IG? Maybe if and when this channel grows I can reach out and look into potentially doing podcast style episodes with guests.
It surprised me to see Sinner in the category Modern Forehand. For me he is one of the extreme examples of the Next Gen Forehand. I guess you have a quite different definition of a Next Gen Forehand than other Tennis TH-camrs.
Dude, you deserve and award for revealing that that the emperor has no clothes. Juniors, club players, and winners should not mess with this garbage. The object of the racket movement is back and forward, not this contorted stuff. After years of dedicated practice, I have taken 100+ players from not being able to hit 3 in a row to competently steady. After the basic shot is learned, we start to add some elbow sophistication to add a bit more snap to their load. If you start with this hyper-topspin parlor trick, you can’t flatten out, take the ball on the rise, or return serve. This is like the John Daly driver swing. Compact is better. Even what you call the modern forehand is too advanced for most beginners.
Lol, that was funny. I certainly agree with your approach (never mind that you carry significant street cred with your background) in that the modern forehand itself is already complex and needs to be taught in stages. Sadly us humans are wired with single core processing power and cannot handle complex multiple functions at once, never mind the months and years of muscle memory and habit forming that comes along with it. Cheers from a fellow Kraut.
@@alexandermayer2026 also you guessed right “Winners” when I was referring to “TH-cam creators” who are adopting this garbage technique 😉
If Wimbledon dares to use back the 90s quick grass, ill have a good time laughing at players missing forehands
The next gen forehand looks like someone is slapping at the ball with an exaggerated wrist pronation to generate a whip-like acceleration. It doesn’t look particularly bio-mechanically efficient or consistent a motion that allows for building good muscle memory, nor does it make much use of the larger muscle groups of the core and legs. Basically, it’s all arm and wrists. Maybe it looks dramatic and cool in a way that convinces players that they are getting more from the shot than they think they are. Or maybe on the margin the exaggerated wrist acceleration does lead to more spin. But I don’t think the trade-off in injury potential, stroke consistency, or additional energy expenditure is worth the effort. But what do I know? I still use a closed stance and hit one-handed backhands? I’m a dinosaur.
WRONG...the elbow is not high, do you're research before blurting out nonsene!!!
This is complete garbage. Saying that Kyrgios is not winning grandslams because of his forehand technique is something I have to digest.
And you're right
NEXT gen forehand same as Your own WTA forehand are both natural ways to hit the ball. Thats exactly why kids are using them naturally They may not be most optimal or efficient and should be corected more.or les but it also depend on player natural abilities like strenght or explosivnes
I do the next gen like Kyrgios
I'm curious to know if those forehands at high levels cause more wrist injuries, injuries happen and the season is extremely long but like Nick, Jack Sock seemed to have injuries with his very aggressive high rev FH, I don't remember exactly but he was also full Western grip.. it seems like that repeated motion it pretty violent on the wrist especially when people are murdering shots at an avg of 80+ mph up to 100 in rallies. I've tried this FH and when hit clean it's awesome but I do not practice it because I realized it breaks down often on off days or fatigued.
While I do agree on many of your points, I think that is mostly all fine. One of the many things I love about our sport is how many variations of ways a player can win a point...and to me, more extreme grips provide a fun dynamic, otherwise if all players have very consistent strokes, what do you expect happens? We have 100 shot table tennis like rallies back and forth over and over? I'm sorry but watching players like Sinner to me is pretty boring to watch 🤷♂️ Federer/Djokovic/Nadal have lost to many players with next gen forehands. Yes, none of them have 20+ slams but who wants to be a gloryhunter, think we all just want to watch exciting tennis!!!
Fair points. Most of my emphasis is that rec. players and junior should avoid this "Gull wing" next gen style forehand.
Sinner 100% has next gen forehand. So much of this video is nonsense. If you can't see that you don't know what a next gen one is. You basically just put up a list of people with the crappier forehands on the pro tour and call it 'next gen" and then pick people - some of whom actually have next gen (Sinner, Novak, Fritz) and call it modern. That poor kid had a funky awful swing and you call it "next gen".
Anyone can hit the next gen forehand - just pronate your hand more such that racquet points to the opposing player and then during the foreword swing you supinate it such that you get into the slot - and then pronate again during the swing and finish. Is it a good idea to do this? No. It takes more skill. You have to wait till the last second to get into the slot position and have to have a perfect idea of where the ball is going to be after the bounce. But you get more power and spin.
Look at Sinner at 17 and compare to now. He added in the early pronation to "next gen" his forehand.
This is just one man's opinion. NG is not for everyone. At the same time, no avg Joe youtuber should declare NG a garbage, when there are so many high level players adapted that mechanics. And believe me they are already aware of what this man knows.. They are just super duper athletics. But i do agree rec level guys will most likely fail because they don't practice tennis, night in, night out. they don't spend hitting the balls all day, 5 days a week. NG is not garbage, it's just not for everyone.
I'm going to clear up some nuisances of my Next Gen stance in the next video. My point was solely focused on the aggressive Next Gen variation which I will be referring to as the "Gull wing" style approach. That specific approach in particular is garbage and a scam recreational players need to avoid. Yours truly, Joe TH-cam ;-)
@@TK-Tennis lol.. agree about the gull swing. but the ones you are referring to are very small percentage even in pros. Tiafoe and kyriyos(whatever his name is) are really extreme side. And the ones you listed modern are incorrect. Sinner and Alcaraz's take backs are more close to NG than modern and their mechanics are clean. That little kid's coach for sure is a garbage as well. at such young age, it might mess up his shoulder, elbow, and wrist.. Hitting with loose muscle is critical element, but not like that.. That crap belongs to somewhere in Tai Chi.. which is anther garbage.. lol
Yeah please do Sinner and Alcaraz
That's why these guys haven't won a grand slam or be #1 in the world...tennis is a game of small margins
Watching videos that announce biomechanical analysis; but then do not include any biomechanical principles, let alone the calculations necessary to demonstrate mechanical advantage
The Next Gen forehand is the same as Fed's modern forehand when the ball is high. The next gen forehand keeps that elbow high on low balls which makes no sense. I do think that Alcaraz's forehand has the same weaknesses as the Next Gen forehand. He hits a lot of balls up especially when he's rushed and even when the ball is just a couple of steps away from him. Carlos's excessive torsional load on the unit turn creates a very large loop and so he's late a lot. As a result, he does that ugly bunny hop buggy whip a lot. Sinner exposed his weak forehand in Riyadh. As far as Sampras goes, yes he did have a high elbow position but he didn't have the pat the dog and lag. It's similar but not fundamentally the same. But I agree with you, the Next Gen forehand is junk.
Federer does not hit a next gen when the ball is high. Fed would never raise his elbow like that, and dip the racquet, on a high ball. He still takes the racquet back with the elbow lower, but then unleashes with a straight high arm.
Jannik Sinner has next gen forehand. He is a Grand slam champion and #1.
Make a vid on modern forehand
Why is Kyrgios being spelled repeatedly as 'Kirios'? His nickname is Kygs and, as Robbie Koenig would say, it's kyrgidiculous.
If only I would have known I would have went with "kyrgidiculous". The misspelling was very sloppy on my part and sadly it cannot be edited.
In Australia, they've got around the difficult spelling by using the acronym DH
That list is simply false. The majority of people on that list do not have a modern forehand. Esp sinner and Alcaraz. The characteristics of a modern forehand is that the tip is up and the racquet drops.
You seem to have categorized the next gen as a high elbow. Which is some respects is a fair assumption but all these next gen forehands are different. The main consistent thing about the modern forehand is the racket dropping from and up motion using gravity assistance and the main consistent thing about next gen is the racquet flip either facing behind the fence or at an angle which rafa and roger dont do.
Sinner, Alcaraz even novak now all have the tip face forward and flip the racket to the back fence to increase the length. But there is zero gravity assistance in that stroke. The racquet flips with strings pointing behind. Which is now the power position which is the next gen forehand. Very few people this in 2000 or 2010.
Tennis unleashed and play your court provides a far better explanation on whats classified as next gen and why coaches teach this. Tiafoe is just a poor explain as there are many unnecessary movement. But loading the racquet with strings facing the back fence is a far more controlled and consistent motion than a racquet drop as shown by sinner.
Totally agree. Zverev, Dimitrov and Federer play an eastern to mild semi-western grip and they all get the racket and the elbow up before dropping and then accelerating. Zverev has his elbow slightly higher than Dimitrov and he has it slightly higher than Federer but aside from that the fundamentals are exactly the same.
I'm also not a fan of tilting the wrist like Khachanov, Musetti, Tommy Paul and of course Tiafoe but these are not the defintion of next gen forehands.
@@nitrooo123 yeah looks like this old youtuber read that old article on why next gen sucks from a few years ago. Didn't actually bother to actually study it or even try it him self. Then makes a whole video to incite the older generation to justify that the old stroke is better with out understanding the fundamentals of the next gen.
He simply picked on the bad parts that specific players do and determined it doesn't work while classifying players with a next gen into the modern to try prove a point.
If he would actually bother to watch college tennis every single d1 player uses the next gen. The majority of the top 50 uses the next gen. He simply has no idea that it's not about a high elbow or weird take back. And if world class coaches have no problem with it (not talking about tiafoe) then he simply has no idea what he's on about.
It's okay. It's why the even older generation did when they first saw the modern forehand. They deemed that it isn't affective n that classic is better lol.
I want a video on Medvedev's forehand😂😂
What is it about this “new gen” technique that makes it more efficient vs the modern one in terms of kinetic energy and power?