equal best with Mentour and Captain Joe. Subject experts in their field of course, but they come at it from different angles. One does the air-crash type cases, and reactions to movies featuring aircraft/piloting etc, one does the technical stuff of how planes work (like "how do you change the tyres on a 747...."). and these viral debriefs, or pilot vs atc and so on. More than you can get from Aircraft Investigation on Discovery (although that's great too for its own reasons).
@@andrewmurray1550 I agree. All 3 are tied for 1st place in my book. Mentour pilot for the accident descriptions, Captain Joe for his interviews, and Kelsey for the awesome laughs. When Kelsey says that getting sent to the chief pilot is like being sent to the school principals office you just KNOW he's seen a principal or two in his time. 🤣
Something I learned while working in fast food as a teenager was the power of a direct suggestion. Instead of asking "is that all", asking a more specific question like "would you like a side of nacho cheese to dip your potatoes in" netted better results. Pose a question where the person has to think about what other options are available, then try to analyze which could be better, then act on that choice they will generally revert to the original choice. But take the thought load off that person will allow them to make a more efficient choice, they are more likely to make the better choice of the options presented to them. "You still want runway 14?" "Yeah, what other options could there be..." Or "23 is also available if you wanted that rather than 14." "Oh, 23 is an option, yeah that might be better"
"And while I didn't do very well in high school fancy math like trigonometry, I CRUSHED it in third grade... I sadly don't look that good in orange!" Your humour is getting better each episode Kelsey! Greetings from YLW Canada.
Other than when you're in a hurry to get things done as quickly as possible and don't want to do a long taxi. I've been on a plane trip where the taxiway to the runway we were taking off from was so long, we started making jokes that now we're driving to our destination instead of flying.
@@vette1607 perhaps, but to be completely honest, none of us (bar his colleagues) actually know how he flies for real, so I wouldn't go that far in my preference statements =))) After all, a man's worth is in the pudding.
@@EneTheGene I never said he couldn't nor wouldn't be. Read the actual message pls. You make the same mistake as the other guy. A mistake called assumptions. I never claimed assumptions are wrong by default. I just say that taking assumptions for facts is a mistake, and I would never let my preferences be guided by assumptions, only by knowledge.
To be honest the “short runway” is 7700’, and presumably without the tailwind wouldn’t be a problem. In medicine we have a similar kind of rule of thumb which I always teach my residents, which is when the nurse seems to be asking silly questions that are hinting at something, stop and recheck (similar to the controller asking about the wind), because it is very easy to follow an erroneous plan rather than rethinking. We have a few mandatory stop-check conditions for situations just like this. Now sometimes are are deliberately doing an abnormal thing, but I always tell the residents if we are doing something unusual preface the plan discussion with the nurse as to why we are going against the usual thing so they realize it is specific to the situation and not a mistake.
Nurse here, and you're spot on. My favorite hint, hint question to a physician always starts with "Please help me understand why..." The good docs always stop, think, and recalibrate or engage in clarifying conversation.
Hi Kelsey, This is my first TH-cam comment ever, so... ya know... hey... This is also my home Airport. This isn't the first crash of a 747 at this airport. There was one several years ago that took the aircrew. There was also the crash of the Air Canada (think it was an A320) flight that took out the ILS tower at the end of runway 23 and forced all flights into a VFR landing for a week :D Ever land in Halifax? Love your channel!
@@Ms.Opinionated Not at all, easy long approach over green forests. It did create it's own fog pattern when they cut the tree's to build the airport. But it's not exactly Kai Tak
I was taught to fly by the U.S. Navy. Early on, I was told to be sure to put your gear down before landing and land into the wind. That advice seemed to work pretty much all throughout my flying career.
@@brantgentry1463 All carrier landing are into the wind of course, but I also had a 33 year stint as a pilot for a major U.S. domestic/international carrier and I made plenty of downwind landings, typically always for the convenience of the controllers at the arrival airport of course. Given the choice, it would be unusual for a pilot to request a downwind landing. It should be noted that a great deal of performance testing is conducted by the folks who make airplanes and it only takes a moment to consult a chart or table or other document to see what the downwind limit is for a particular aircraft, weight, runway, and so-on. Just like any landing, you should fly an on speed stabilized approach and touch down in the legal touch down zone. Normally, when landing into the wind, using the proper technique gives you a huge margin for error. Sloppy flying is often a non issue. When landing down wind that usual cushion is reduced to some extent, so it's important to fly your airplane correctly. If you do, you won't run off the end of the runway. If you screw up, there are consequences and aviation is one area where screw-ups often manifest themselves as a big, hot, steaming mess of you-know-what.
It is simply amazing how many aircraft land without any incident or mistakes. And after seeing this video, It is even more astounding. So many little things can turn into big things
The airlines safety record is by no accident. (Pun intended.) Humans have been flying aircraft commercially since about the 1920's, so we're around 100 years of commercial flight. When there's an accident or incident (regardless how small), it's looked at by civil aviation authorities (like the FAA in the US) and transportation safety organizations (like the NTSB in the US or TSB in Canada) will examine the incident. If it's serious enough, a report will be published. The report will be written from the viewpoint of what went wrong to cause this incident and what can be changed to make sure it doesn't happen again. They're never written with the idea of "finding fault and/or blame", since that doesn't answer the previous two questions. In addition, there are all sorts of procedures, regulations, and extensive training that goes into making the art of flying reflexive (i.e. muscle memory). There will be recommendations for the pilots, the airline of the flight, the aircraft manufacturer, and even the civil aviation authority itself. By this process, everything gets refined to make the industry safer. I also want to point out that, yes, that it's easy for simple things to balloon into larger issues, there's redundancy built into the system (Mechanical, software, and human systems) to prevent an accident from happening. It really takes a lot of things going wrong for this kind of outcome. As Kelsey pointed out, there were any number of things where any one of "If this happened", there would have been a much better outcome. Another channel that reviews airline incidents, Mentour Pilot, likes to talk about the "Swiss Cheese Model" where the holes in the slices of cheese has to line up perfectly for an accident to happen. And we see it with this incident.
@@jackielinde7568 just want to add that every aviation regulatory agency in the world has a related but separate safety agency to investigate aviation accidents to determine the cause and recommend changes to prevent repeats. This is by international treaty to have the investigation done with no blame or punishment involved. The objective is to find what led to the event and how it could have been stopped. There are lots of great agencies that do great work. The US and Canada didn't invent the concept and we are not the only countries with very capable investigation teams.
@@hewhohasnoidentity4377 Oh, I wasn't implying this was something only the US and Canada does. And that treaty you mentioned is IATA run by the UN. To be fair, the NTSB does help a lot of other nations investigate their issues. Likewise with Britain and Canada as well.
I don't think that little things have turned into big things here. There was big mistakes done from the beginning in accidentally pushing one thrust lever up (knowing that it causes brakes disable) and not monitoring the auto brake, especially when in a rather short runway with tailwind situation. My intention is not to pass blame, but to say that always a big mistake accompanied with some other mistake needs to happen to cause an accident.
What a beautiful aircraft, the 747. They flew into Dublin Airport right over our house when the wind was in the right direction. I miss living on the flight path. ✈️🇮🇪☘️
He's such a great teacher. Nice work Professor Kelsey. Fatigue is such a big issue for those of us who have to be "on" for days at a time. Glad no one was badly hurt.
I'm glad that the issue of pilot fatigue came up, as I thought that I could hear signs of it in the radio transmissions from the aircraft. Not sure what went wrong with their rest period, but if the entire flight crew was sleep deprived, that was not a good sitaution.
I am convinced flying a large jet takes more common sense than a lot of people are born with. I learn something new on all your presentations. The learning process is endless.
I dispatched airbuses for a major carrier in the us for almost a decade. I remember when company requested a tactical diversion for an airborne flight and the captain replied on the ACARS that they will not divert due to fatigue. He reported fatigue IN THE AIR. Not sure what happened but after I called the chief pilot, the chief was pretty pissed as well. I miss the airlines sometimes but man...don't ever say you're fatigued as you're flying 176 pax, please. And if you actually are fatigued when airborne, put the plane down ASAP at the nearest suitable airport...thank you current and future airline pilots for not being dumb.
Those hints are weak, could hardly be weaker. There's no challenge at all. Those Tower ATC know that runway and it's capability and limits. Strange there isn't a chart or auto-alert that warns HEAVY + TAILWIND + SHORT RUNWAY = HIGH RISK = ALERT, INFORM, CONFIRM RISK ACCEPTABLE. All they have to do is say "You have a higher risk with these numbers, the safer option is B. Think and confirm your choice when ready."
ATC and all those on the radio in aviation of any kind must be direct to the point and precise. Hints areas we see here cancerous growths that will only cause more harm than good. In normal conversation of direct to the point people misunderstand and do the wrong still a good amount of the time. When you start just laying hints that percentage skyrockets and even senior pilots can/will mess up. The ATC should've done what Kelsey voiced over or something similar.
But why is ATC dropping "hints?" Doesn't ATC control what runways are safe to land on unless there is a declared emergency? Pilots can request a runway, but ATC has to grant it (which they did for Runway 14). Otherwise, planes would be landing on top of each other. It seems ATC should have at least told the pilots that Runway 23 was now the preferred (or even only) runway due to current wind conditions. Not to excuse the pilots, but ATC was one of the holes in the Swiss cheese.
I went off the end of a runway in an MD80 (2nd flight of my life as a passenger) . Sliding down the inflatable ramp off the tail was fun, and high as the nose was buried in the dirt several feet. But not worth the memories.
It often seems like it's the storms of little things that add up to having one big bad thing take place in planes. I'm a jeweler, all the little details really matter for success but nobody gets hurt or crashes if I occasionally miss one. Respect to the pilots like Kelsey who make the details part of their own programming.
The Swiss cheese effect. Sometimes all the little holes line up, and you can see right through the cheese (when the shit hits the fan). We use this term on the railway…
I was flying into Chicago-Midway and on final when the pilot announced that the wind shifted and we had to land on another runway. I was annoyed at the delay but was happy that the pilots was taking our safety seriously.
Great video! As a back end crew member, we are all responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft. A heavy workload at the end of a long flight can make even the most experienced pilots make mistakes from fatigue. This is why, on my aircraft, the flight deck radios are rolled in for the back end to monitor. We have caught everything from not being given a clearance to take off to having two aircraft lined up to land on opposite ends of the same runway at the same time.
Kelsey, I can't even begin to imagine how many pilots have thanked you & included you in their prayers for your clear & concise helpful observations from the flight deck & beyond to best use of downtime.
Being a HAM (Amateur Radio Operator), when talking local, sometimes going through a repeater or talking radio to radio (sometimes referred as simplex), you will hear the double click of the microphone, it also means the same thing as Kelsey said, message received and understood.
@@tchevrier - Deemed lazy by you, while there's overwhelming evidence from multiple parties that its use is widespread. This is likely due to it being an efficient and succinct manner of communication. Another commenter noted that the double click response is also utilized in the military.
@@eme.261 I said it "seems" lazy. And yes to ME, it seems lazy if you can't be bothered to actually acknowledge ATC with a verbal response. Not only that, it is a poor way of communicating, especially when clear and concise instructions are VITAL in the aviation industry. How is ATC supposed to know which plane double clicked if there are multiple planes. How are you supposed to know what a double click means if it isn't part of the official protocols. Just because people do it, doesn't mean that it is a good/safe practice. C'mon man
That clicking you hear on the frequency is done in Europe too at times. Particularly when live wind read outs are given on the approach when the wind is particularly gusting and changeable. Heard it many times when crews do it simply to acknowledge the controllers transmission.
Tailwind component calculation: If the wind is 120 degrees off the nose, that is about 30 degrees off your wingtip behind you. If it is gusting to 21 knots, use the sin function on your phone: Sin 30 = 0.5; Multiply that times 21 and you of course get 10.5. That means he has a 10.5 knot tailwind component, which is against the limitations of most transport category jets. The FAA or Transport Canada is going to pull that "captain" into a room and sit him at the "big table" and show him this calculation. Just before they take his license away....
A lot of aircraft have a 10 knot restriction. Not sure if the .5 is going to make or break you. Lot of Airbus aircraft have a 15 knot tailwind limitation.
I vaguely recall a study comparing consuming alcohol vs being sleep deprived & the fatigued person was worse than the drinking person in performing tasks. I wouldn’t want either one being responsible for my life!
I think the issue is they can quantitatively measure BAC. A lot harder for fatigue. Some people may do great on six hours sleep while some might just hate the world and everything in it when they get less than eight
Crew fatigue is a real concern. Before I retired in Canada it was 10.5 hrs minimum turn. This has since changed for the better I hope. Do two of these days back to back, you are fatigued. Take into account a 1 hour drive to and from the hotel, time to eat, do you have time to exercise, can you fall asleep and did you get 8 hours prone rest? I booked off a fair bit, as did other crew members. The regional I worked for expected you to be "good little soldiers". I was told this by a senior management pilot. This management attitude I suspect is still there today. They want maximum profit, witch I can understand, but at what price? Bend or break the rules, then have an incident and you will be thrown under the bus. You have to know when to say no and be rested enough, that your head is not stuck up in your nether regions, that you are alert enough to make good decisions and be able to intervene if an error, oversite or omission occurs. Good review Thanks.
I'm not sure why but your comment makes me think of the Guantanamo Bay cargo plane accident. The 3 pilots were all extremely fatigued and made poor choices. Somehow all 3 survived the accident but just barely. They were interviewed and stated that if they didn't do it they'd get in trouble with their company. American International Airways flight 808, August 18, 1993. I do realize a great deal changed since then.
@@blackwidow8412 I read about that accident. I dont buy the fatighe BS. The captain didnt know how to do short approaches, like many airliners even now. 1-He turned wrong to align and 2-overshot final, and 3-instead of going around, kept banking over 45 degrees at Vref & then under it. Of course it will stall. 3 student pilot errors. Been a bit tired is not an excuse for 3 student pilot errors.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 I'd keep it as an excuse but definitely just a contributor. Listening to the pilot talk about the strobe light over and over and over again. I agree with the three things you said. I'll add in ATC as a contributor because strobe wasn't even working. The pilot was genuinely devastated what he did to his friends. The engineer also is a contributor as well as the co pilot. The fact their flying hours total were OVER 60k is shocking. As you said, students are taught these things.
By looking at the photos, this airframe is now a parts donor. Sometimes airframes are more valuable as parts donors as long as everyone made it out ok. I have a friend who worked for a now defunct airline and they spoke with co workers who were on one of the early trijets that had a food elevator replaced with one from an aircraft that had been written off from a crash with fatalities. Several members of the cabin crews who worked this one aircraft had reported unusual "paranormal" activities around this equipment. It wasn’t until later when one of the crew did some research as to the origin of the replacement equipment did they learn of it’s unfortunate source. As for the recordings of the crew of this aircraft one could hear the delay and confusion in their voice almost as if they had just been woken.
@@Subgunman Good point, the negative energy in an air crash must be huge and would probably stick around for a while. I wonder what “ superstitions” and beliefs there are in the aviation industry around things like this, and what paranormal experiences people have had on planes and in airports. Would be an interesting video.
@@Subgunman The crew on this flight were fatigued after a 14.5hr delay turned their scheduled daytime flight into one that was in the lowest part of the circadian rhythm.
I just completed my PPL today for SEL and I just wanna say thank you so much because I’ve learned a lot from your videos as far as aviating goes, and you also make atc videos entertaining which helped me learn to communicate a lot
*They are indeed,* well, in the sense they manage to control that big tube through any present condition in an extemely high pressure environment (the work and the duty, on time, everything must have a justification, costs...) Every flight done is unique and a feat a passenger back in the cabin isn't even aware of. 👍 However, pilots are humans, they are not god : they do make mistakes and poor decisions (BTW, give or take, but sometimes, even god makes mistakes). I'm among those who believe, like Kelsey, that if you manage to learn from your mistakes, you are today the less likely in the entire world to repeat the same mistake. Obviously here, we are beyond the simple mistake one could make from time to time. I'm not here to praise pilots like angels, they are doing their job the same way I'm doing mine or anyone else, but, when lives are at stake *including themselves* (and other things like cargo and a 300 million dollars flying bus), plus the lives of people you may end if you crash on a city below... I can't argue with that, my job isn't anywhere near that level of responsibility. So, keep that aspect of their image that makes them heroes one way or another, everyday, everyone of them, even if most people won't notice. Also, *don't forget the other 350 or so people working behind the scene* just for your flight at this very moment, controllers, flight attendants, security agents, ground handlers, even the guy in charge of scaring birds around the airport to prevent bird strike damaging engines which would substantially delay your flight. Aviation is an actual case of "working together". Pilots alone won't get you anywhere. Sooo, don't scream at the gate agent when he/she tells you there is a slight problem or delay, don't judge the pilots if upon touchdown you hear a loud bang and kind of a jolt in your stomac, especially when you watch many videos of "Ryanair landings." Landing *firmly* to get those spoilers out quick and all the systems to initiate slowing down sequences is actually *safer* than trying to land "soft". A normal jetliner landing gear and central wing box are designed to sustain an impact the scale of a free fall from the top of an house, many times more than your body can bear, so, if you're shaken but okay in your seat, the plane probably is aswell. Don't believe me, just think of a fleet of 500 planes, each one making two landings everyday, that's 1000 landing : that's what Ryanair is, on a daily basis. Any crash so far ? (Flight 4102 wasn't technically a crash), there is none (if I'm not mistaken), that's a fkuc ton of damn good pilots when you realize the fleet size, the type of operations and the number of required flight crew....... ;)
"...If you enjoyed this video..." No "if" about it. For aviation enthusiasts this has to be one of the best channels on TH-cam. Interesting, informative. All done with good humour. Already looking for the next one!
The double click thing, I’ve heard it in the military too. Not in the US, But in Sweden. I did radios and telephone poles/stations back then. Double click is a great way to acknowledge a transmission when you don’t want to be heard 😊
Worthy of note Page 27 of the Canadian accident report indicates that on that date the only available approach to the long RWY 23 was the NDB approach. This may have influenced the runway choice because NDB minimums were probably too low for a 500' ceiling.
As a German, I completely misunderstood your comment the first time I read it. I thought you were talking about the Deutsche Mark. you know, the German currency before the euro was invented.
The double click is not official, but I’ve used it flying in UK controlled airspace. It can be really helpful when a message doesn’t even need a “roger” response.
This is why I LOVE Kelsey’s channel. His succinct yet detailed enough description of what happens and suggestions, quite humbly, are always spot on and educational. By the time I got bit by the aviation bug I had too many health afflictions to qualify as an airport greeter 😂😂, sadly though 😢. Yet I can still be an enthusiast on the side lines. I would love to have an update regarding Covid and flying and if the airlines have REALLY done anything to improve the health of the airflow. Everyone I know that has flown recently without a mask has indeed contracted Covid immediately following the flight and those wearing masks throughout their flight have not. Keep up the good work, Kelsey!😊
I might recommend a channel on YT called "Mentour Pilot" and "Mentour Now"... Both are run by the same guy "Petter" who flies in Europe. I'm not even sure which channel has the vid' but he already spoke at some length about what the Airlines can and can't do about Covid... AND while he was assuring that the air system circulates through brilliant filters to avoid the random spreading of Covid already, the reality is that all the filtration in the world for the recirc' air system won't help you with other people coughing around and sneezing in your direction in the cabin. Masks are really the best option to go with if you want to be reasonably protected. They've already tried to instate the "Social Distancing" principles, but from some carriers finding it economically unfeasible to cut ticket sales in half per flight as the price creeps up steadily, others are making note of passengers getting steadily more and more aggressive with flight and cabin crews over being spaced away from each other (particularly families and parents with children)... Airborne violence and "flight rage" has become another epidemic and the risks to flight and cabin crews are just too much... It sucks, but it is what it is... AND lots of people are ambivalent and stupid. ;o)
Thank you, Captain, for this episode, which points to mistakes that could have been avoided during work, and this helps to avoid such mistakes in the future.
I really like the emphasis you put on communication in your videos. There's just so many accidents/incidents where communication, or lack thereof, was a factor. Keep up the good work. Your videos are some of the best out there and give a great perspective from a pilot's point of view.
Winds can be tricky. In summer, I have experienced situations were winds directions were completely opposite depending on which part of the runway they were measured. After hearing some pilots having reported windshear on short final, I started watching landings. The next one was a B737 and it was dancing all around the ILS,sometime beeing pushed sideways with very noticable balancing movements. The wind gusts seemed massive to make it dance like that and you could hear massive thust change as he was trying to maintain a stabillised approach. He finally went around and reported a massive windshear also. Tower was confused by the opposide winds reading but after so many planes reporting windhsear on short finals they decided to change the QFU. Reason for opposite wind directions were two massive CB's creating two seperate local winds within only few miles away and centered on the aiport.
Yesterday a Dreamlifter buzzed my house about 5 min after leaving Marana AZ. It was less than 10k feet and loud. Never seen one before, really cool disappearing into a cloud so low and large.
Glad you mentioned calling off work if you weren't able to get sleep the night before. I drove motor coaches for years. Occasionally, I'd have a night were I just couldn't fall asleep, even though I was really tired. I'd have to call into work, because I wasn't about to drive all day with no sleep. Some of the dispatchers would cop an attitude with me for calling in. My feeling was, 'too damned bad. I'm NOT going to take a chance driving a motor couch while really tired. That's what backup drivers are for... use one of them.' Lives depend on drivers and pilots to be wide awake to get them to their destination.
To me, the Pilot on the radio, sounded drunk, but as ive been involved in FRM, Fatigue risk management within Aircrew, and in Groundcrew as in myself, its pure tiredness, and when we are tired, we do silly things, he wasnt drunk, but the whole crew fatigued, coupled by a lack of awareness to the wind shift, and runway length, just made their job incredibly difficult
I was in Moncton, NB that morning flying an Air Canada Express run. As we were taxxing out we were told to return back to the ramp as the Halifax Airport was closed. Later in the morning they opened 23/05 and on the approach we easily saw the 747 off of the end of the runway. That crew was very lucky they did not go a little further or the aftermath would have been much different.
I wanted to say that just a few days ago I found your channel and I have been heavily binging it lol. Ive watched all the available pilot vs ACT and have started watching your viral debriefs
Hey Kelsey - student pilot here. This was a fantastically well done and educational video for me. Love your channel but I might have enjoyed this video the most so far! Would love to meet up for a drink or go flying next time you’re in NYC!
The "double-click" confirmation is also rather common among military. A fair number of former military pilots I have had the opportunity to spend some time with (Ironically discussing radio etiquette) clued me into what the double click was all about a fair while ago. Based on that discussion, British, Canadian, American, and German aviators also use the double click when confirming additional info on a transmission. Case in point for this came out of the gulf war, a tornado RIO was receiving an update on a strike package and only double clicked the mic as a response rather than a couple seconds of transmission. I believe the reasoning was to maintain "Radio Silence" from the tornado (There is not really such a critter as a totally EM silent aircraft...)
Great breakdown and consideration of all factors here. I heard that Radio call about wind and saw the airport chart, and INSTANTLY was like WTF!? Now, I can't afford a pilot's license, but I've been flying in flight sims for, literally, 26 years. But you broke it all down in an excellent manner so the fatigue factor could be adequately represented and I appreciate the full breakdown.
So much going on in that story, so many things to learn. It occurs to me that the tailwind would also make it harder to go around. Bunch of very expensive decisions were made.
I was recently in a flight that did a go-around while landing, which surprised me and the other passengers, but thanks to your other videos, I knew I didn’t have to worry. The pilot explained that we weren’t allowed to land at this airport with a tailwind, so once the wind shifted, we had to try again from the other direction. Now, thanks to this video, I have a much more context for WHY landing with a tailwind could be a problem!
The "autopilot off" noise that was demonstrated made me reach for my Nintendo controller by sheer reflex 🤣 Great way to wake a person up and tell them to grab the controls quick!
I remember reading about this. You got some connect the dot points that weren't covered. I'm glad they all walked away from the incident! Have a great week everyone!
I think the sound that you are hearing in the background from the tower there is the ELT from the just destroyed Whale. I’ve heard other ATC alarms bleeding through on transmissions in the past, and they are likely collision avoidance warnings to controllers. This one definitely sounds like an ELT, and it would be coming through the guard frequency that they always monitor.
I agree that I hear the same coming from a speaker in the tower. I believe it's the 121.5 Mhz ELT sound (still in use today) monitored by ATC in the control tower.
Another excellent analysis. FWIW what I used to do when given landing clearance was to get a wind check from the tower. If it was more than about 5 knots and 30° different to what was showing on the INS is allow for a bit of windshear, and verbally tell the crew that as well.
You can hear the fatigue on the radio. The pilot‘s speech sounds slurred, one sentence trailed off in the middle with the radio switching off several seconds later and he was struggling to find the right words a few times.
I’m from Halifax and remember that crash that ended up short of the road. We had another prior crash of another 747 that was an overweight freighter that crashed on take off and took out the navigation aids building for that runway.
Great explanation and video. I like the term air traffic coordinator vs controller. It reminds pilots they are just coordinating flights. Sometimes it seems they try and set you up to make a mistake. More car crashes with deaths at night eventhough a whole less cars on the road. At night pilots are tired and easily overloaded. ATC could of stated strong tailwind 240 at whatever. I like the other option like you stated 23 or 14. That runway should of not been used especially for 747. Tower or atc can help a little if a pilot might not be 100% focused.
I just looked at my wall clock and counted 15 seconds off. That's an awfully long time to be speeding down a too short runway, without applying any brakes. I wonder if the reverse trusthers also disengaged?
Reverse thrust was not applied because the thrust lever for the #1 engine was left _forward_ of the idle position, meaning it was still providing forward thrust. This caused the speed brakes to retract and the autobrake system to disengage. They eventually noticed after traveling 1700 feet, as mentioned in the report: "the #1 engine thrust lever was reduced to just above flight idle (6 seconds, approximately 1700 feet, after touchdown), which allowed the speed brakes to fully deploy."
@@desmond-hawkins Gosh. A chain of errors led to this crash. I'm surprised that they didn't go even further off the runway. It looks like the gear also collapsed. Must be a write off then😢
My home airport! I remember going to see the plane sitting there... it was eerie as there is a spotting section right at the end of that runway... if they went much further if anyone was there... would not be good... Great content dude, always watchin!
as an control board operator, I would always give as much info to my field counterpart as possible. Even though the tower controller said "Tango", he should have read to the pilot that they were landing on 23 now, not 14. They could still choose 14, but 23 was the preferred traffic. Clear communication, not assuming anything, is important in every aspect of life.
Kelsey, when I was in college in Springfield, MO in the early 1970's I was at the airport waiting to pick-up a friend. It was after Thanksgiving weekend and at night. We watched a plane slide off the end of the runway into gravel. Then to our amazement the pilot tried to rock the plane because it was stuck. I can't remember how they got it out but was kind of funny watching a guy ride out there with a shovel!
I think it also sounded like the pilot on the radio was facing some task saturation. He didn't seem to be 100 percent aware of what the ATC said and wasn't communicating back in a clear and focused manner.
You can tell the ATC was trying to warn them that they were choosing poorly after reiterating the winds several times over. Though, you do on occasion feel a bit pressured into using the runway that everyone else is using even if it's not the ideal runway, or the one you requested once you're in the pattern, so maybe that had something to do with the pilot choosing to continue his pattern to 14.
Regarding the controller not specifically giving RWY 23 as an option, I'd argue that he in effect did. First of all, this was a 747, so it's fair to assume that the flight crew is very highly trained. He then adviced what weather info was in effect, which had 23 as the active rwy. He also repeatedly gave wind updates, and also asked about continuing on 14. Yeah sure... he COULD have spelled it out that 23 was an option, but it's fair to see why that could have been viewed almost as a little patronising.
to the double clicking: when i flew gliders in germany in (obviously) uncontrolled airspace that was also pretty common as acknoledgment for non critical information that not necessarily has to be read back
One additional question regarding the ATC responses: Isn't the pilot supposed to read back the information with the letter (which this pilot left out) and the controller should make them read it back correctly? That might have served the pilot an additional clue to check their expectations and get out of confirmation bias.
According to the TSB report, the crew confirmed that they had Tango (it's unclear to me whether they actually had Tango or if their confirmation was mistaken). In the video, the readback is just "We have...", which the controller doesn't challenge. That must just be that the recording cut out. If the pilot really had just said "We have..." then the controller would have prompted them again to confirm that they had Tango.
@@dirkschwartz1689 You're welcome -- it confused me, too. By the way, I've edited my initial comment. I originally claimed that the pilots wrongly said they had Tango, but I actually don't know if they had Tango or Sierra.
Holy cow yeah I did a touch in go a Cessna on a 2000 ft runway on a 10 kt tailwind and that’s the last time I do that lol can’t imagine doing it in a big boy like that. The wind just makes you zip forward and overshoot a landing.
This has to be one of the best professional aviation channels on TH-cam.
Definitely.
equal best with Mentour and Captain Joe. Subject experts in their field of course, but they come at it from different angles. One does the air-crash type cases, and reactions to movies featuring aircraft/piloting etc, one does the technical stuff of how planes work (like "how do you change the tyres on a 747...."). and these viral debriefs, or pilot vs atc and so on. More than you can get from Aircraft Investigation on Discovery (although that's great too for its own reasons).
For sure. 😂
@@andrewmurray1550
I agree. All 3 are tied for 1st place in my book. Mentour pilot for the accident descriptions, Captain Joe for his interviews, and Kelsey for the awesome laughs. When Kelsey says that getting sent to the chief pilot is like being sent to the school principals office you just KNOW he's seen a principal or two in his time. 🤣
This is one of the comments on TH-cam. Definitely 👍🏻
It's 10% info, 90% unnecessary waffle.
Something I learned while working in fast food as a teenager was the power of a direct suggestion. Instead of asking "is that all", asking a more specific question like "would you like a side of nacho cheese to dip your potatoes in" netted better results. Pose a question where the person has to think about what other options are available, then try to analyze which could be better, then act on that choice they will generally revert to the original choice. But take the thought load off that person will allow them to make a more efficient choice, they are more likely to make the better choice of the options presented to them. "You still want runway 14?" "Yeah, what other options could there be..." Or "23 is also available if you wanted that rather than 14." "Oh, 23 is an option, yeah that might be better"
Kelsey's entire career is based off showing up the teacher who scolded him for looking out the window
But seriously, really great video!
As a lorry driver I feel the same !! . . . :-)
You say that like it's a bad thing
"And while I didn't do very well in high school fancy math like trigonometry, I CRUSHED it in third grade... I sadly don't look that good in orange!"
Your humour is getting better each episode Kelsey!
Greetings from YLW Canada.
Every pilot knows that there is no such thing as a _runway that is too long._
although that one in the fast and furious movie in russia is getting there.
If you land GA and the exit you need is 2/3rds down, with jets waiting…. ;)
roger that
Other than when you're in a hurry to get things done as quickly as possible and don't want to do a long taxi. I've been on a plane trip where the taxiway to the runway we were taking off from was so long, we started making jokes that now we're driving to our destination instead of flying.
They haven't watched FATF have they
I love how Kelsey is ALWAYS so focused when the towers and pilots are communicating. I’d happily fly with him any day!
You'll have to be happy sitting in a box, tho =P
@@lukearts2954 I'd be happy if I'm getting on a cargo plane that's piloted by Kelsey!
@@vette1607 perhaps, but to be completely honest, none of us (bar his colleagues) actually know how he flies for real, so I wouldn't go that far in my preference statements =))) After all, a man's worth is in the pudding.
@@lukearts2954 He seems like a rational and professional pilot. I'd prefer him to a random pilot any time.
@@EneTheGene I never said he couldn't nor wouldn't be. Read the actual message pls. You make the same mistake as the other guy. A mistake called assumptions. I never claimed assumptions are wrong by default. I just say that taking assumptions for facts is a mistake, and I would never let my preferences be guided by assumptions, only by knowledge.
The tiny Kelsey in the tower at 16:17 totally made my morning
I hadn't noticed that. Thanks for pointing it out and totally making my morning, too!
It looks more like Kelsey than the actual Kelsey. I don' mean'at innaBAD way...
To be honest the “short runway” is 7700’, and presumably without the tailwind wouldn’t be a problem. In medicine we have a similar kind of rule of thumb which I always teach my residents, which is when the nurse seems to be asking silly questions that are hinting at something, stop and recheck (similar to the controller asking about the wind), because it is very easy to follow an erroneous plan rather than rethinking. We have a few mandatory stop-check conditions for situations just like this. Now sometimes are are deliberately doing an abnormal thing, but I always tell the residents if we are doing something unusual preface the plan discussion with the nurse as to why we are going against the usual thing so they realize it is specific to the situation and not a mistake.
Very wise!
Nurse here, and you're spot on. My favorite hint, hint question to a physician always starts with "Please help me understand why..." The good docs always stop, think, and recalibrate or engage in clarifying conversation.
As a retired nurse, yes, that's how I guided physicians, especially those fresh out of college, or new to the U.S.
Just loved this none aviation comment…brilliant
Hi Kelsey, This is my first TH-cam comment ever, so... ya know... hey... This is also my home Airport. This isn't the first crash of a 747 at this airport. There was one several years ago that took the aircrew. There was also the crash of the Air Canada (think it was an A320) flight that took out the ILS tower at the end of runway 23 and forced all flights into a VFR landing for a week :D Ever land in Halifax? Love your channel!
MK Air flight 1602 & Air Canada flight 624
Mine too, I am from the Valley about an hour away but now living in AB.
Is this a tough airport for pilot's to navigate like Aspen CO?
@@Alexiosftw Yes and Yes. Thank ya :)
@@Ms.Opinionated Not at all, easy long approach over green forests. It did create it's own fog pattern when they cut the tree's to build the airport. But it's not exactly Kai Tak
I was taught to fly by the U.S. Navy. Early on, I was told to be sure to put your gear down before landing and land into the wind. That advice seemed to work pretty much all throughout my flying career.
THANK YOU for your service.......
Roberto as a navy pilot u landed and took off from carrier flight decks so u always faced into the wind because the carrier can move around
@@brantgentry1463
All carrier landing are into the wind of course, but I also had a 33 year stint as a pilot for a major U.S. domestic/international carrier and I made plenty of downwind landings, typically always for the convenience of the controllers at the arrival airport of course. Given the choice, it would be unusual for a pilot to request a downwind landing.
It should be noted that a great deal of performance testing is conducted by the folks who make airplanes and it only takes a moment to consult a chart or table or other document to see what the downwind limit is for a particular aircraft, weight, runway, and so-on. Just like any landing, you should fly an on speed stabilized approach and touch down in the legal touch down zone. Normally, when landing into the wind, using the proper technique gives you a huge margin for error. Sloppy flying is often a non issue. When landing down wind that usual cushion is reduced to some extent, so it's important to fly your airplane correctly. If you do, you won't run off the end of the runway. If you screw up, there are consequences and aviation is one area where screw-ups often manifest themselves as a big, hot, steaming mess of you-know-what.
It is simply amazing how many aircraft land without any incident or mistakes. And after seeing this video, It is even more astounding. So many little things can turn into big things
Rog 😮
The airlines safety record is by no accident. (Pun intended.) Humans have been flying aircraft commercially since about the 1920's, so we're around 100 years of commercial flight. When there's an accident or incident (regardless how small), it's looked at by civil aviation authorities (like the FAA in the US) and transportation safety organizations (like the NTSB in the US or TSB in Canada) will examine the incident. If it's serious enough, a report will be published. The report will be written from the viewpoint of what went wrong to cause this incident and what can be changed to make sure it doesn't happen again. They're never written with the idea of "finding fault and/or blame", since that doesn't answer the previous two questions. In addition, there are all sorts of procedures, regulations, and extensive training that goes into making the art of flying reflexive (i.e. muscle memory). There will be recommendations for the pilots, the airline of the flight, the aircraft manufacturer, and even the civil aviation authority itself. By this process, everything gets refined to make the industry safer.
I also want to point out that, yes, that it's easy for simple things to balloon into larger issues, there's redundancy built into the system (Mechanical, software, and human systems) to prevent an accident from happening. It really takes a lot of things going wrong for this kind of outcome. As Kelsey pointed out, there were any number of things where any one of "If this happened", there would have been a much better outcome. Another channel that reviews airline incidents, Mentour Pilot, likes to talk about the "Swiss Cheese Model" where the holes in the slices of cheese has to line up perfectly for an accident to happen. And we see it with this incident.
@@jackielinde7568 just want to add that every aviation regulatory agency in the world has a related but separate safety agency to investigate aviation accidents to determine the cause and recommend changes to prevent repeats.
This is by international treaty to have the investigation done with no blame or punishment involved. The objective is to find what led to the event and how it could have been stopped.
There are lots of great agencies that do great work. The US and Canada didn't invent the concept and we are not the only countries with very capable investigation teams.
@@hewhohasnoidentity4377 Oh, I wasn't implying this was something only the US and Canada does. And that treaty you mentioned is IATA run by the UN.
To be fair, the NTSB does help a lot of other nations investigate their issues. Likewise with Britain and Canada as well.
I don't think that little things have turned into big things here. There was big mistakes done from the beginning in accidentally pushing one thrust lever up (knowing that it causes brakes disable) and not monitoring the auto brake, especially when in a rather short runway with tailwind situation.
My intention is not to pass blame, but to say that always a big mistake accompanied with some other mistake needs to happen to cause an accident.
What a beautiful aircraft, the 747. They flew into Dublin Airport right over our house when the wind was in the right direction. I miss living on the flight path. ✈️🇮🇪☘️
He's such a great teacher. Nice work Professor Kelsey. Fatigue is such a big issue for those of us who have to be "on" for days at a time. Glad no one was badly hurt.
Whaddaya mean no one was badly hurt? The plane was killed...
@@privateer0561 Very true. My apologies. A 747 is a thing of immense beauty. Sad to see her come to ruin.
@@privateer0561 R.I.P. 747 poor thing
The above shown report has crew injured and hospitalized and 1 pax not injured
@@NoName-zn1sb Thank you for that information and correction. I'm glad there was no loss of life, and I hope those injured were well cared for.
I'm glad that the issue of pilot fatigue came up, as I thought that I could hear signs of it in the radio transmissions from the aircraft.
Not sure what went wrong with their rest period, but if the entire flight crew was sleep deprived, that was not a good sitaution.
He sounded confused and a little slurry.
My Wife works at that airport. It's good to finally hear what happened and why.
Did she not know what happened or is there like a gag order??
@@aserta
People are busy & it’s something that doesn’t have to do with what you’re doing.
@@aserta She just didn't know. The report on this was published more than a year ago.
Can a 747 even land in Halifax canada
@@plane-nerd61 they land there daily
I am convinced flying a large jet takes more common sense than a lot of people are born with. I learn something new on all your presentations. The learning process is endless.
I dispatched airbuses for a major carrier in the us for almost a decade. I remember when company requested a tactical diversion for an airborne flight and the captain replied on the ACARS that they will not divert due to fatigue. He reported fatigue IN THE AIR. Not sure what happened but after I called the chief pilot, the chief was pretty pissed as well. I miss the airlines sometimes but man...don't ever say you're fatigued as you're flying 176 pax, please. And if you actually are fatigued when airborne, put the plane down ASAP at the nearest suitable airport...thank you current and future airline pilots for not being dumb.
Ahh…that explains why my package was late. Glad everyone got out safely. A totaled 747 always brings a tear to my eye…RIP.
That's what you call a bad case of target fixation. The tower is dropping hints left and right but you don't want to hear them.
Thank you Kelsey.
Dropping hints is how two people at a party hookup. Tower shouldn't be coy.
Those hints are weak, could hardly be weaker. There's no challenge at all. Those Tower ATC know that runway and it's capability and limits. Strange there isn't a chart or auto-alert that warns HEAVY + TAILWIND + SHORT RUNWAY = HIGH RISK = ALERT, INFORM, CONFIRM RISK ACCEPTABLE.
All they have to do is say "You have a higher risk with these numbers, the safer option is B. Think and confirm your choice when ready."
ATC and all those on the radio in aviation of any kind must be direct to the point and precise. Hints areas we see here cancerous growths that will only cause more harm than good. In normal conversation of direct to the point people misunderstand and do the wrong still a good amount of the time. When you start just laying hints that percentage skyrockets and even senior pilots can/will mess up. The ATC should've done what Kelsey voiced over or something similar.
The tower should have screamed: HEAVY, TURN NOW. HEADING RUNWAY 23!
GO AROUND!!
But why is ATC dropping "hints?" Doesn't ATC control what runways are safe to land on unless there is a declared emergency? Pilots can request a runway, but ATC has to grant it (which they did for Runway 14). Otherwise, planes would be landing on top of each other. It seems ATC should have at least told the pilots that Runway 23 was now the preferred (or even only) runway due to current wind conditions. Not to excuse the pilots, but ATC was one of the holes in the Swiss cheese.
Always like how you explain situations and "dumb it down" for us lay people. Good work.
Kelsey is a wonderful explainer.
I went off the end of a runway in an MD80 (2nd flight of my life as a passenger) . Sliding down the inflatable ramp off the tail was fun, and high as the nose was buried in the dirt several feet. But not worth the memories.
It often seems like it's the storms of little things that add up to having one big bad thing take place in planes. I'm a jeweler, all the little details really matter for success but nobody gets hurt or crashes if I occasionally miss one. Respect to the pilots like Kelsey who make the details part of their own programming.
The Swiss cheese effect. Sometimes all the little holes line up, and you can see right through the cheese (when the shit hits the fan). We use this term on the railway…
@@Meadie69 Yes, the Swiss cheese effect is a great analogy for this. 👍
The double click response is extremely common in the military. CWO4, USN(Ret)
Haha. I just posted that.
We called it breaking squelch. If you put a time table on it, you can encode information.
And in the Marine industry
Yup
We used it extensively in the Coast Guard too.
I hear this double-click response in Europe plenty.
I was flying into Chicago-Midway and on final when the pilot announced that the wind shifted and we had to land on another runway. I was annoyed at the delay but was happy that the pilots was taking our safety seriously.
Yes, it's far better to arrive a few minutes late than not at all
Kelsey and 747Gear Sunday! Great to have my aviation fix on a Sunday! Cheers, Kelsey!
We do the double click thing in New Zealand too. Just a good way to acknowledge something without clogging up the frequency.
Great video! As a back end crew member, we are all responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft. A heavy workload at the end of a long flight can make even the most experienced pilots make mistakes from fatigue. This is why, on my aircraft, the flight deck radios are rolled in for the back end to monitor. We have caught everything from not being given a clearance to take off to having two aircraft lined up to land on opposite ends of the same runway at the same time.
Back end?
I’m wondering that too.
@@321captain3 Cabin crew, I'm guessing.
@@321captain3 military
Kelsey, I can't even begin to imagine how many pilots have thanked you & included you in their prayers for your clear & concise helpful observations from the flight deck & beyond to best use of downtime.
As a former S-ATC i can tell you the double click is used a lot in Europe too :)
Being a HAM (Amateur Radio Operator), when talking local, sometimes going through a repeater or talking radio to radio (sometimes referred as simplex), you will hear the double click of the microphone, it also means the same thing as Kelsey said, message received and understood.
As a former "red cap" in Switzerland, i can tell you i used the double clic too
it seems like a lazy way to communicate.
@@tchevrier - Deemed lazy by you, while there's overwhelming evidence from multiple parties that its use is widespread. This is likely due to it being an efficient and succinct manner of communication. Another commenter noted that the double click response is also utilized in the military.
@@eme.261 I said it "seems" lazy. And yes to ME, it seems lazy if you can't be bothered to actually acknowledge ATC with a verbal response. Not only that, it is a poor way of communicating, especially when clear and concise instructions are VITAL in the aviation industry. How is ATC supposed to know which plane double clicked if there are multiple planes. How are you supposed to know what a double click means if it isn't part of the official protocols. Just because people do it, doesn't mean that it is a good/safe practice. C'mon man
I could hear the fatigue in his voice. He could barely keep his eyes open.
That clicking you hear on the frequency is done in Europe too at times. Particularly when live wind read outs are given on the approach when the wind is particularly gusting and changeable. Heard it many times when crews do it simply to acknowledge the controllers transmission.
Tailwind component calculation: If the wind is 120 degrees off the nose, that is about 30 degrees off your wingtip behind you. If it is gusting to 21 knots, use the sin function on your phone: Sin 30 = 0.5; Multiply that times 21 and you of course get 10.5. That means he has a 10.5 knot tailwind component, which is against the limitations of most transport category jets.
The FAA or Transport Canada is going to pull that "captain" into a room and sit him at the "big table" and show him this calculation. Just before they take his license away....
A lot of aircraft have a 10 knot restriction. Not sure if the .5 is going to make or break you. Lot of Airbus aircraft have a 15 knot tailwind limitation.
I vaguely recall a study comparing consuming alcohol vs being sleep deprived & the fatigued person was worse than the drinking person in performing tasks. I wouldn’t want either one being responsible for my life!
I think the issue is they can quantitatively measure BAC. A lot harder for fatigue. Some people may do great on six hours sleep while some might just hate the world and everything in it when they get less than eight
You are both correct. It's on Pub Med Central through the National Library of Medicine/NIH.
Crew fatigue is a real concern. Before I retired in Canada it was 10.5 hrs minimum turn. This has since changed for the better I hope. Do two of these days back to back, you are fatigued. Take into account a 1 hour drive to and from the hotel, time to eat, do you have time to exercise, can you fall asleep and did you get 8 hours prone rest? I booked off a fair bit, as did other crew members. The regional I worked for expected you to be "good little soldiers". I was told this by a senior management pilot. This management attitude I suspect is still there today. They want maximum profit, witch I can understand, but at what price? Bend or break the rules, then have an incident and you will be thrown under the bus. You have to know when to say no and be rested enough, that your head is not stuck up in your nether regions, that you are alert enough to make good decisions and be able to intervene if an error, oversite or omission occurs. Good review Thanks.
maybe on long flights the FMC should be programmed to randomly start whooping and yelling terrain alert
I'm not sure why but your comment makes me think of the Guantanamo Bay cargo plane accident. The 3 pilots were all extremely fatigued and made poor choices. Somehow all 3 survived the accident but just barely. They were interviewed and stated that if they didn't do it they'd get in trouble with their company. American International Airways flight 808, August 18, 1993. I do realize a great deal changed since then.
@@blackwidow8412 I read about that accident. I dont buy the fatighe BS. The captain didnt know how to do short approaches, like many airliners even now. 1-He turned wrong to align and 2-overshot final, and 3-instead of going around, kept banking over 45 degrees at Vref & then under it. Of course it will stall. 3 student pilot errors. Been a bit tired is not an excuse for 3 student pilot errors.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 I'd keep it as an excuse but definitely just a contributor. Listening to the pilot talk about the strobe light over and over and over again. I agree with the three things you said. I'll add in ATC as a contributor because strobe wasn't even working.
The pilot was genuinely devastated what he did to his friends. The engineer also is a contributor as well as the co pilot. The fact their flying hours total were OVER 60k is shocking. As you said, students are taught these things.
@@blackwidow8412 The strobe is not used to align with the runway. No factor.
If you're going to crash, this is how to do it. Everyone not hurt (except pride and insurance companies).
Great video as usual Kelsey!
By looking at the photos, this airframe is now a parts donor. Sometimes airframes are more valuable as parts donors as long as everyone made it out ok. I have a friend who worked for a now defunct airline and they spoke with co workers who were on one of the early trijets that had a food elevator replaced with one from an aircraft that had been written off from a crash with fatalities. Several members of the cabin crews who worked this one aircraft had reported unusual "paranormal" activities around this equipment. It wasn’t until later when one of the crew did some research as to the origin of the replacement equipment did they learn of it’s unfortunate source.
As for the recordings of the crew of this aircraft one could hear the delay and confusion in their voice almost as if they had just been woken.
@@Subgunman Good point, the negative energy in an air crash must be huge and would probably stick around for a while. I wonder what “ superstitions” and beliefs there are in the aviation industry around things like this, and what paranormal experiences people have had on planes and in airports. Would be an interesting video.
@@Subgunman oh yes, Eastern Airlines 401. What a story.
@@Subgunman The crew on this flight were fatigued after a 14.5hr delay turned their scheduled daytime flight into one that was in the lowest part of the circadian rhythm.
I just completed my PPL today for SEL and I just wanna say thank you so much because I’ve learned a lot from your videos as far as aviating goes, and you also make atc videos entertaining which helped me learn to communicate a lot
Congrats
Sounds like complacency was in the mix too. Fun and informative to watch, thanks!
Makes me appreciate our great pilots that keep us safe everyday through difficulties we dont even know. Unsung heros.
I have always considered the pilots as hero. Thank-you again for taking off flying and landing us safe 👍
*They are indeed,* well, in the sense they manage to control that big tube through any present condition in an extemely high pressure environment (the work and the duty, on time, everything must have a justification, costs...) Every flight done is unique and a feat a passenger back in the cabin isn't even aware of. 👍
However, pilots are humans, they are not god : they do make mistakes and poor decisions (BTW, give or take, but sometimes, even god makes mistakes). I'm among those who believe, like Kelsey, that if you manage to learn from your mistakes, you are today the less likely in the entire world to repeat the same mistake. Obviously here, we are beyond the simple mistake one could make from time to time.
I'm not here to praise pilots like angels, they are doing their job the same way I'm doing mine or anyone else, but, when lives are at stake *including themselves* (and other things like cargo and a 300 million dollars flying bus), plus the lives of people you may end if you crash on a city below... I can't argue with that, my job isn't anywhere near that level of responsibility.
So, keep that aspect of their image that makes them heroes one way or another, everyday, everyone of them, even if most people won't notice. Also, *don't forget the other 350 or so people working behind the scene* just for your flight at this very moment, controllers, flight attendants, security agents, ground handlers, even the guy in charge of scaring birds around the airport to prevent bird strike damaging engines which would substantially delay your flight. Aviation is an actual case of "working together". Pilots alone won't get you anywhere. Sooo, don't scream at the gate agent when he/she tells you there is a slight problem or delay, don't judge the pilots if upon touchdown you hear a loud bang and kind of a jolt in your stomac, especially when you watch many videos of "Ryanair landings." Landing *firmly* to get those spoilers out quick and all the systems to initiate slowing down sequences is actually *safer* than trying to land "soft". A normal jetliner landing gear and central wing box are designed to sustain an impact the scale of a free fall from the top of an house, many times more than your body can bear, so, if you're shaken but okay in your seat, the plane probably is aswell. Don't believe me, just think of a fleet of 500 planes, each one making two landings everyday, that's 1000 landing : that's what Ryanair is, on a daily basis. Any crash so far ? (Flight 4102 wasn't technically a crash), there is none (if I'm not mistaken), that's a fkuc ton of damn good pilots when you realize the fleet size, the type of operations and the number of required flight crew.......
;)
@@StephenKarl_Integral WAO thanks for this long answer. I still consider them hero after all.
Tl:dr
@@StephenKarl_Integral Great message....thanks!!!
"...If you enjoyed this video..." No "if" about it. For aviation enthusiasts this has to be one of the best channels on TH-cam. Interesting, informative. All done with good humour. Already looking for the next one!
The double click thing, I’ve heard it in the military too. Not in the US, But in Sweden. I did radios and telephone poles/stations back then. Double click is a great way to acknowledge a transmission when you don’t want to be heard 😊
Worthy of note Page 27 of the Canadian accident report indicates that on that date the only available approach to the long RWY 23 was the NDB approach. This may have influenced the runway choice because NDB minimums were probably too low for a 500' ceiling.
That may have been due to a prior crash of another 747 that was overweight on takeoff that took out the navigation building at the end on the runway.
@NHalsey - Wow, 14 years.. it didn’t seem like it was that long. I was going off memory which I guess I should have.
You are getting close to the 1 million mark! Can't wait til you get the 1 million subscribers!
As a German, I completely misunderstood your comment the first time I read it. I thought you were talking about the Deutsche Mark. you know, the German currency before the euro was invented.
The tone of thee tower guy's voice afterward tells me he knew this was gonna happen.
The double click is not official, but I’ve used it flying in UK controlled airspace. It can be really helpful when a message doesn’t even need a “roger” response.
can confirm it's used in europe too
The double click for confirming information is also very common in Germany. Great video ❤️
74 Gear... Making TH-cam a better place.. Great video Kelsey
This is why I LOVE Kelsey’s channel. His succinct yet detailed enough description of what happens and suggestions, quite humbly, are always spot on and educational. By the time I got bit by the aviation bug I had too many health afflictions to qualify as an airport greeter 😂😂, sadly though 😢. Yet I can still be an enthusiast on the side lines. I would love to have an update regarding Covid and flying and if the airlines have REALLY done anything to improve the health of the airflow. Everyone I know that has flown recently without a mask has indeed contracted Covid immediately following the flight and those wearing masks throughout their flight have not. Keep up the good work, Kelsey!😊
I might recommend a channel on YT called "Mentour Pilot" and "Mentour Now"... Both are run by the same guy "Petter" who flies in Europe. I'm not even sure which channel has the vid' but he already spoke at some length about what the Airlines can and can't do about Covid... AND while he was assuring that the air system circulates through brilliant filters to avoid the random spreading of Covid already, the reality is that all the filtration in the world for the recirc' air system won't help you with other people coughing around and sneezing in your direction in the cabin. Masks are really the best option to go with if you want to be reasonably protected.
They've already tried to instate the "Social Distancing" principles, but from some carriers finding it economically unfeasible to cut ticket sales in half per flight as the price creeps up steadily, others are making note of passengers getting steadily more and more aggressive with flight and cabin crews over being spaced away from each other (particularly families and parents with children)... Airborne violence and "flight rage" has become another epidemic and the risks to flight and cabin crews are just too much... It sucks, but it is what it is... AND lots of people are ambivalent and stupid. ;o)
Patrick 😑
Thank you, Captain, for this episode, which points to mistakes that could have been avoided during work, and this helps to avoid such mistakes in the future.
We do that double click for „Affirmative“ in the German Navy as well. Depends on who you‘re talking with.
Very well said Kelsey I learned something from this video also. Air traffic control has alarms also that’s very important to me
I really like the emphasis you put on communication in your videos. There's just so many accidents/incidents where communication, or lack thereof, was a factor.
Keep up the good work. Your videos are some of the best out there and give a great perspective from a pilot's point of view.
Good video Kelsey, very informative !! Fatigue in your job can be a killer !!
The sound in the background of the tower controller sounds like the 747 ELT going off on guard…. Another great video Kelsey. Keep it up!
I’m about to board a plane to LAX. I’ll watch this after we land.
Lol
Good move!
Thanks for the Sunday morning Coffee with Kelsey! Really appreciated your assessment!
Winds can be tricky. In summer, I have experienced situations were winds directions were completely opposite depending on which part of the runway they were measured. After hearing some pilots having reported windshear on short final, I started watching landings. The next one was a B737 and it was dancing all around the ILS,sometime beeing pushed sideways with very noticable balancing movements. The wind gusts seemed massive to make it dance like that and you could hear massive thust change as he was trying to maintain a stabillised approach. He finally went around and reported a massive windshear also. Tower was confused by the opposide winds reading but after so many planes reporting windhsear on short finals they decided to change the QFU. Reason for opposite wind directions were two massive CB's creating two seperate local winds within only few miles away and centered on the aiport.
Yesterday a Dreamlifter buzzed my house about 5 min after leaving Marana AZ. It was less than 10k feet and loud. Never seen one before, really cool disappearing into a cloud so low and large.
I love your content, as someone currently in the early stages of flight school I dream of flying the 747 F and I love your content
KELSEY, CAN YOU PLEASE BRING BACK THE "guess which city I'm in"?......74 CREW NEEDS THIS!!!!!!!
Glad you mentioned calling off work if you weren't able to get sleep the night before. I drove motor coaches for years. Occasionally, I'd have a night were I just couldn't fall asleep, even though I was really tired. I'd have to call into work, because I wasn't about to drive all day with no sleep. Some of the dispatchers would cop an attitude with me for calling in. My feeling was, 'too damned bad. I'm NOT going to take a chance driving a motor couch while really tired. That's what backup drivers are for... use one of them.' Lives depend on drivers and pilots to be wide awake to get them to their destination.
Great! Was eagerly waiting for @74gear weekend upload! Good job as always.
If this is the kind of content we get following a week with a shorter video, it's worth it.
To me, the Pilot on the radio, sounded drunk, but as ive been involved in FRM, Fatigue risk management within Aircrew, and in Groundcrew as in myself, its pure tiredness, and when we are tired, we do silly things, he wasnt drunk, but the whole crew fatigued, coupled by a lack of awareness to the wind shift, and runway length, just made their job incredibly difficult
Yeah, there's very little appreciation among the public that being very tired can literally give you the reaction time of a drunk driver.
I was in Moncton, NB that morning flying an Air Canada Express run. As we were taxxing out we were told to return back to the ramp as the Halifax Airport was closed. Later in the morning they opened 23/05 and on the approach we easily saw the 747 off of the end of the runway. That crew was very lucky they did not go a little further or the aftermath would have been much different.
I wanted to say that just a few days ago I found your channel and I have been heavily binging it lol. Ive watched all the available pilot vs ACT and have started watching your viral debriefs
Hey Kelsey - student pilot here. This was a fantastically well done and educational video for me. Love your channel but I might have enjoyed this video the most so far! Would love to meet up for a drink or go flying next time you’re in NYC!
I live in Halifax and kinda remember this incident, great it was cargo and not passenger !
Kelsey, nice to meet you at SFO. Enjoy those North-South trips.
The "double-click" confirmation is also rather common among military. A fair number of former military pilots I have had the opportunity to spend some time with (Ironically discussing radio etiquette) clued me into what the double click was all about a fair while ago. Based on that discussion, British, Canadian, American, and German aviators also use the double click when confirming additional info on a transmission. Case in point for this came out of the gulf war, a tornado RIO was receiving an update on a strike package and only double clicked the mic as a response rather than a couple seconds of transmission. I believe the reasoning was to maintain "Radio Silence" from the tornado (There is not really such a critter as a totally EM silent aircraft...)
What a Classic great episode Kelsey. Thank you for not putting it behind a pay wall yet dear dude. Many of us watch them over & over🙂
Great breakdown and consideration of all factors here. I heard that Radio call about wind and saw the airport chart, and INSTANTLY was like WTF!? Now, I can't afford a pilot's license, but I've been flying in flight sims for, literally, 26 years. But you broke it all down in an excellent manner so the fatigue factor could be adequately represented and I appreciate the full breakdown.
I've done tailwind landings for training before . Its amazing how much MORE runway you NEED for a landing.
Kelsey, that alarm sounds to me like an ELT being received in the tower.
WordsWorth 😮
So much going on in that story, so many things to learn. It occurs to me that the tailwind would also make it harder to go around. Bunch of very expensive decisions were made.
I was recently in a flight that did a go-around while landing, which surprised me and the other passengers, but thanks to your other videos, I knew I didn’t have to worry. The pilot explained that we weren’t allowed to land at this airport with a tailwind, so once the wind shifted, we had to try again from the other direction. Now, thanks to this video, I have a much more context for WHY landing with a tailwind could be a problem!
The "autopilot off" noise that was demonstrated made me reach for my Nintendo controller by sheer reflex 🤣
Great way to wake a person up and tell them to grab the controls quick!
15 seconds of no braking............... what the heck was going on with that flight crew
I remember reading about this. You got some connect the dot points that weren't covered. I'm glad they all walked away from the incident! Have a great week everyone!
they didn't
@@NoName-zn1sb Yes, they did. Even Kelsey confirmed it.
I think the sound that you are hearing in the background from the tower there is the ELT from the just destroyed Whale. I’ve heard other ATC alarms bleeding through on transmissions in the past, and they are likely collision avoidance warnings to controllers. This one definitely sounds like an ELT, and it would be coming through the guard frequency that they always monitor.
I was just about to make that same comment unless he was hearing something I couldn't.
I agree that I hear the same coming from a speaker in the tower. I believe it's the 121.5 Mhz ELT sound (still in use today) monitored by ATC in the control tower.
Another excellent analysis.
FWIW what I used to do when given landing clearance was to get a wind check from the tower. If it was more than about 5 knots and 30° different to what was showing on the INS is allow for a bit of windshear, and verbally tell the crew that as well.
You can hear the fatigue on the radio. The pilot‘s speech sounds slurred, one sentence trailed off in the middle with the radio switching off several seconds later and he was struggling to find the right words a few times.
I’m from Halifax and remember that crash that ended up short of the road. We had another prior crash of another 747 that was an overweight freighter that crashed on take off and took out the navigation aids building for that runway.
“I, sadly, don’t look that good in orange”
Great explanation and video. I like the term air traffic coordinator vs controller. It reminds pilots they are just coordinating flights. Sometimes it seems they try and set you up to make a mistake. More car crashes with deaths at night eventhough a whole less cars on the road. At night pilots are tired and easily overloaded. ATC could of stated strong tailwind 240 at whatever. I like the other option like you stated 23 or 14. That runway should of not been used especially for 747. Tower or atc can help a little if a pilot might not be 100% focused.
I'm in Canada, do the double mic click all the time while operating heavy equipment, surprised to learn pilots do it too.
Kelsey, I think this is one of your best videos to date.
I just looked at my wall clock and counted 15 seconds off. That's an awfully long time to be speeding down a too short runway, without applying any brakes. I wonder if the reverse trusthers also disengaged?
Reverse thrust was not applied because the thrust lever for the #1 engine was left _forward_ of the idle position, meaning it was still providing forward thrust. This caused the speed brakes to retract and the autobrake system to disengage. They eventually noticed after traveling 1700 feet, as mentioned in the report: "the #1 engine thrust lever was reduced to just above flight idle (6 seconds, approximately 1700 feet, after touchdown), which allowed the speed brakes to fully deploy."
@@desmond-hawkins Gosh. A chain of errors led to this crash. I'm surprised that they didn't go even further off the runway. It looks like the gear also collapsed. Must be a write off then😢
@@desmond-hawkins Very interesting. Thanks so much 👍☺
My home airport! I remember going to see the plane sitting there... it was eerie as there is a spotting section right at the end of that runway... if they went much further if anyone was there... would not be good... Great content dude, always watchin!
as an control board operator, I would always give as much info to my field counterpart as possible. Even though the tower controller said "Tango", he should have read to the pilot that they were landing on 23 now, not 14. They could still choose 14, but 23 was the preferred traffic. Clear communication, not assuming anything, is important in every aspect of life.
Kelsey, when I was in college in Springfield, MO in the early 1970's I was at the airport waiting to pick-up a friend. It was after Thanksgiving weekend and at night. We watched a plane slide off the end of the runway into gravel. Then to our amazement the pilot tried to rock the plane because it was stuck. I can't remember how they got it out but was kind of funny watching a guy ride out there with a shovel!
Ironically, landing on 23 would've been the shorter taxi to the cargo ramp as well.
Depends where he was going. It would be a much longer taxi to the main terminal but I guess the cargo area is closer to the south end of 23.
@@beeble2003 cargo is near the south of 23, I see the SKy lease 747's sitting there everyday. I believe many carry Atlantic Lobster back West!
I think it also sounded like the pilot on the radio was facing some task saturation. He didn't seem to be 100 percent aware of what the ATC said and wasn't communicating back in a clear and focused manner.
You can tell the ATC was trying to warn them that they were choosing poorly after reiterating the winds several times over. Though, you do on occasion feel a bit pressured into using the runway that everyone else is using even if it's not the ideal runway, or the one you requested once you're in the pattern, so maybe that had something to do with the pilot choosing to continue his pattern to 14.
Yeah, it would have been better if the ATC had just added, "and we're now landing on 23 now if you would rather use that"
Regarding the controller not specifically giving RWY 23 as an option, I'd argue that he in effect did. First of all, this was a 747, so it's fair to assume that the flight crew is very highly trained. He then adviced what weather info was in effect, which had 23 as the active rwy. He also repeatedly gave wind updates, and also asked about continuing on 14. Yeah sure... he COULD have spelled it out that 23 was an option, but it's fair to see why that could have been viewed almost as a little patronising.
Seems that the tower knew what was going on .the pilot on the other hand didn’t seem to get the clue.
to the double clicking:
when i flew gliders in germany in (obviously) uncontrolled airspace that was also pretty common as acknoledgment for non critical information that not necessarily has to be read back
One additional question regarding the ATC responses: Isn't the pilot supposed to read back the information with the letter (which this pilot left out) and the controller should make them read it back correctly? That might have served the pilot an additional clue to check their expectations and get out of confirmation bias.
Can I know you better ??😒
According to the TSB report, the crew confirmed that they had Tango (it's unclear to me whether they actually had Tango or if their confirmation was mistaken). In the video, the readback is just "We have...", which the controller doesn't challenge. That must just be that the recording cut out. If the pilot really had just said "We have..." then the controller would have prompted them again to confirm that they had Tango.
@@beeble2003 Thanks for this, makes sense :)
@@dirkschwartz1689 You're welcome -- it confused me, too. By the way, I've edited my initial comment. I originally claimed that the pilots wrongly said they had Tango, but I actually don't know if they had Tango or Sierra.
Holy cow yeah I did a touch in go a Cessna on a 2000 ft runway on a 10 kt tailwind and that’s the last time I do that lol can’t imagine doing it in a big boy like that. The wind just makes you zip forward and overshoot a landing.
You are almost at 1 million subscribers… wow!!! You definitely have an amazing channel⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️