What do you think about Seb's test? Have you been lucky enough to ride one of these forks? Let us know what you think should be the winner in the comments! 🍴
After watching this video (which was very interesting by the way) I only realize I need to learn a lot more about how suspensions really work instead of just fiddling with the knobs and hope for the best... 🙄
Best review on the internet... At last a review with understandable insight and technical backup. Not a "review" to just get one early in, but something of value.
I have similar rebound settings on my dhx2 like you had on the 38. I have no clue why fox's tune is so weird that you open lsr completely and close hsr nearly completely. Little weird balance /tune
Seb - you are by the the most competent, coherent, comprehensive and entertaining reviewer/tester of MTB products on TH-cam. Not overly dumbed down down (most reviews are sucking eggs really), some nice pro-tips and lateral comments which are honest and good to know (e.g. how much stiffness makes a difference in fork vs wheel/tyre) and price consideations or how the Lyrik would still be the better buy in many circumstances. Hope someone at BikeRadar gives you a raise & allows you to dedicate more of your working hours to these sorts of more intricate tests (e.g. for rims or tyres/compounds, cockpit setup, bike sizing, different progressivity's of coils etc).
Yes this type of review with more technical details is what every magazine should do.who is interested can pick up important details who is no can only be focused on riding characteristics. Please continue :)
Unique approach to quality control 😂😂 finally someone who says it how it is. Watch some of hambini's videos and they'll ruin your opinion of your favourite brands
@@erich8258 The fact is with pressfit on bike BBs you get more often than not crooked and misaligned bearing surfaces, therefore threaded BBs are actually less problematic overall. Pressfit could be better, but not with these manufacturing tolerances.
@@erich8258 agree with you, but at the end, all we want is less issues, more creak free riding. noone cares about theoretically better solution if practice is different...
please, dont let anyone else on bikeradar (Ok, Tom Marvin is also good) test mtb equipment. You are soo spot on in your analysis and personally you are one of my go to sources for reliable product information.
Absolute best reviewer in the business. He provides and opinion that is backed by solid, creative and “empirical” testing. His suspension reviews are just spot on. Seb, since you love those long and slack bikes, you own a machine, and have a relationship with Mojo... when are you giving us a detail comparison between your machine and the G1?? Keep making this quality content!
I think it was one of the better MTB reviews I’ve watched so far. Very detail, but to the point that it keeps it interesting and not boring at all. Very Clear with great explanation. Not too long, but not to short ether. Great job! Much Appreciated !!! P.S. Subscribed ✅
@@sebstott3573 Hi seb great review. Its sad to hear that you left bikeradar. Are you still gonna be tester/presenter somewhere on youtobe? I have also couple questions for you connected with the test result. Have your opinion changed since the review? Are you still rating Lyrik as the fork you would buy for your own money? Do you think light (160lbs with gear) riders would benefit from 38mm stansions? I have also read that fox don't have enough rebound adjustments for light riders do you have any information about it? I will be gratefull if you find a moment to answer those questions. Cheers mate
holy cow this is an awesome piece. great work seb. i really wish there was enough time to get your thoughts on all sus forks, including your thoughts on air vs coil, memorable forks, and more. perhaps a multipart bikeradar podcast on this, much like the suspension tuning episode. I've not found any other media that matches the thoroughness of your testing procedures, nor as open about subjective vs objective, and pitfalls in testing methodology. This is the kind content that keeps me coming back for more. Give this man a raise, this is pure quality.
Really nice indepth review, with someone actually knowing hiw different factors affect each other and not somebody only reading the datasheet and going for how they 'feel'.
Great review! A detailed techy review is the only way I want to spend my time watching a review. Any idiot could claim that a certain product is great if they didn't have to explain why.
Finally some informative review I love this style of reviews! The only thing what I'm missing here is comparison with Manitue Mezzer as this is potentially best SC fork on the market.
Best 38 to ZEB comparison out there. I was waiting for the rebound settings of the 38 and got myself confirmed in running the low speed rebound of my 36 faster than the high speed rebound... pretty much as with my X2 at the rear. Rebound is really the setting, where I don’t wanna miss the separate high and low speed adjusters, whereas the compression damping gets weird when low and high speed settings are too much apart. Thx for the super nice review, keep up the good work 👍🏻
Seb's videos are my favourite! I would love reviews on less mainstream products, like that Privateer, or a comparison between the zeb, 38, mezzer and era, or even selva.
Solid review that presents really useful data and I like that the final decision was - let's save a few bucks because they're both so good. Please continue with this format!
Best reviews on YT! Thanks Seb for your diligence and scientific approach and not rushing to be the first one to post their 'reviews'. On the new 38mm diameter forks in general - personally, I believe that unless one is really heavy and/or a world-class, super aggro rider (e.g. Richie Rude), one will not be able to fully unleash the potential of these new forks, nor will they be able to tell a difference (in a blind test) between these and the Fox 36 / Lyrik. One other realistic application for these new forks may be e-bikes, where e.g. fox 36, with the 34 internals was struggling. I personally am happy that the appearance of these 38mm forks takes the edge (marketing- and price-wise) off the fox 36 /Lyrik, making them moreaffordable
Great report and testing! You hit the nail on the head regarding the urban legend "the fore-aft flex offers more grip and less fatigue". More fore-aft flex offers only more friction on the bushings and the wipers, therefore worse small bumps compliance, because the stanchions are not diving into the bushings axially. I ride the 38 and I agree that in corners you do not feel the stiffness difference that much - if you even feel any. On the contrary, in steep sections you feel big difference in the maneuverability of the bike - it feels more accurate in steering - and it allows you to drive faster and safer. This a a very nice upgrade - if you neglect the additional cost.... Never rode the ZEB though - I am really curious to test it now.
The best review so for and I would say almost impossible to beat by another bike channel, you should try the fox 38 performance, everybody is just focusing on the high end stuff and theres a bunch of people that we are the set it and forget it type, I personally own a fox 38 performance but have no clue how it compares to others or at least some feedback about how it performs.
I can confirm what he said about the air spring on the zeb. Too harsh over light and mid sized bumps, but it hasnt got enough support in the super steep stuff and heavy braking zones. Im looking foreward to buy the formula foam volume spacers, which woul give the zeb the same spring caracteristics as the fox 38. This guy knows what hes talking about!
I've got a set of 180mm 38. Tons of CSU creaking after a month of riding, sent them away for a week, replaced the entire fork under warranty., and it has been great for 3 months of whistler bike park use.
I love the technical analysis! Most bike reviews are just spooky magic placebo, and it's really nice to see things actually being measured. I'd love more technical analysis for tire grip and stuff like that. (Also rolling resistance, but bicyclerollingresistance already does a great job with that)
Thanks. Bicycle rolling resistance is a great resource. I've done many roll down tests and constant power tests in the past, but it's difficult to keep all the variables constant (wind and temperature etc.). I'm not sure if testing rolling resistance on a drum is all that useful for MTB, due to the more concave shape of the contact patch on the drum than on the ground, and the fact that bumps can't be simulated realistically. Quantifying grip is even harder!
@@sebstott3573 I'd think you'd be able to get somewhere by putting a constant weight on a bike, and seeing how much force it takes to pull the bike forward with the brakes locked up, on a consistent surface. That's perhaps quite far from "real world" but i'd think that that would allow you to compare tires quite well.
Everything is on point, I ride a ZEB fork and I felt that, I never tried a fox 38 to compare tho. BUT I would like to add that there is a way to make the ZEB super comfortable by adding 3/4 tokens and reducing considerably the pressure, way lower than “recommended” settings. It used to be super harsh at the beginning of the travel, now it is softer and comfy. Tokens are indispensable or else you just bottom out every jump with low pressure. Try this fork again with these kinds of settings, it feels like a fully different (and better) fork.
RS have messed up with their own design of air spring reducing negative chamber in all of their 2021+ forks (C1 upgrade). I went back from *new* one to old B1 and feels much better, more supple in mid stroke
Nice review. I have the Fox 38 on my bike and a Fox rear damper. I love them. Unfortunately, th eprice difference between Rockshox and Fox has become unbearable. In Germany, I could buy the Zeb for 700€, while the Fox retails for the double price. Even though I love the 38 and don't need tokens for the Parc, etc, I hate the fact to pay 1 grand more for the bike, just because it has Fox written on the suspension!
Not too nerdy at all! Enjoyed the review, and the specific differences, both subjective and measured. Respectfully disagree with regard to the idea that fork stiffness can't create harshness.... i've (subjectively) found my DVO Onyx dual crown to be less harsh than a Fox 40.... and previous versions of the 40 were more harsh than the newer versions, which were actually modified to be less stiff for that exact reason. You may be correct in the single crown arena though.... maybe we can't (yet) create a single crown that is too stiff to the point of harshness... I suspect it's more about resonant frequencies and vibration than flex though... although slight deflection of the fork can be better than deflection of the whole bike (knocked off line).
Great review guys, complete with telemetry to boot. Very technical, I like that. just what I was looking for. Curious, what rise on those renthal barz??
I really enjoyed watching this format of the video, I witched it without skipping thru, also I'm in the market for either of these forks, and what's anther 300.00 buks when your spending over 1000.00. its all on the Credit card same interest rate, hehe
Sounds like the Zeb needed a volume spacer. It sounds just like my 2019 36 with no spacers, firmer at the top and blows through the mid. I've experimented at ton with the 36 and it needs 2 volume spacers to work well imo. It allows for lower pressure making it softer on the to and gave the mid and end more support, especially noticeable on the steeps.
For me the one overarching issue with these test is that (I assume) these are out of the box forks. A test of each after 25-35 hours of riding might be more representative of reality. My experience is that most forks feel like themselves after break in.
How many lbs do you weigh? I’m on the ZEB at 59psi & I weigh 165lbs running 1 volume spacer 9 clicks of rebound from closed & 1click of HSC from open & 7 clicks of LSC Pretty flawless setup so far! Anything over 60psi feels too firm tho & I never really get full travel
@@sebstott3573 Haha awesome thanks for the feedback! I’m just getting into reviewing more products/bikes & love these kinds of in depth details you guys give! Hope to get better over time myself 👍🏼😎 Happy Trails Fellow Shredder🚲❣️
Great video, it was good to have the technical information in there. I'm running a rockshox lyric rc2 on my eBike and really notice the fork flexes loads if I look down the tubes when riding on fire roads etc. The fork actually seems to perform fantastically but I feel like I'd feel better on a more rigid fork. I've found a pair of non eBike fox 38 factory forks cheap and wonder if there will be less flex front to back or the difference will be minimal?
I suspect the reason the fox is substantially stiffer longitudinally is the fact it uses an elliptical steerer tube at the press fit interface with the crown. The rockshox uses a standard circular tube at the same interface
clarkie005 like to see a stiffness comparison between the zeb and 38 on a machine. He mentions the 38 is a lot stiffer than the the 36 but is it actually stiffer than the zeb? Everyone always thought the 36 was stiffer than the lyrik which isn’t true, the lyrik is actually much stiffer, manitous testing for the mezzer showed that. The mezzer was only just stiffer than the lyrik in the end but a lot more than the 36
I really enjoyed the review. The technical stuff was great! I am currently looking at getting a Commencal Meta Power SX Race that comes with the Zeb Ultimate. It sounds like the 38 is better and the Zeb struggles a little bit with controlling it's travel. I dont think it'll stop me from buying the bike as I'm sure it's still a great fork, just not the best.
Zebs firmer start and softer mid is likely due to the 2021 'new new' air spring seal head, bigger with smaller neg again, due to the previous 2020 'new' air spring sometimes sagging under bike weight only as the neg was too big! Sounds like they havent found the sweet spot, so I will defo not 'upgrade' to the new new seal head then! I only 'loose' a few mm of travel anyway, so rather have supple start and more supportive mid.
Amazing review! Can you compare other manufacturer's forks like DVO, Manitou Mezzer Pro, Cane Creek Helm, etc? Seems like it's only RS or Fox and nothing else 🤣👍
Great review here. I really enjoy getting into the specifics of suspension performance and setups as it relates to mountain biking. Please keep doing reviews like this. I know a lot about suspension but there is always more I can learn. Also, I completely agree that Fox’s rebound recommendations are on the slow side for the 38. I found this to be the case setting up my 38, but the recommendations for previous forks were pretty spot on, so something to keep in mind for new 38 owners.
Regardless of what you said, it sounds like you should of tried running a bit less sag on the zeb and added 1 spacer. It’d wouldn’t of affected mid stroke as much as you thought and you could of always added some LSC as you were running it fully open. Small bump would of obviously felt better
Increasing sag/dropping air pressure helps with sensitivity and grip, but has a detrimental effect on mid-stroke support, even with more volume spacers. Even with the setup used for testing, the Zeb already has a significantly softer spring rate/force in the middle of the travel. Adding LSC is a sticking plaster. There's an article to follow on Bikeradar.com which explains this in more detail.
@@sebstott3573 nope that’s exactly what damping is made for...I used to run my forks like that and focus on mid stroke with spring rate alone but it’s better the way I mentioned. You should of tried it, I’ve tried both for years so can comment on both... Just try it mate, you know it only takes 5 mins, you’ll be surprised and may learn something, don’t forget to speed up your rebound a couple of clicks.
Got a Fox Factory 38 (not the latest) coming in the post for my Commencal Clash (mullet'ed, so a 29er fork). It's replacing a '20 Fox Factory 36 (Orange) 🧡 Can't wait to see how it performs 🤘
Do we enjoy review of a product based on quantified riding data and how that compares to actual feel? Absolutely. Especially comparing stuff like forks and shocks like this, to each other, and to different products (like, zeb vs lyrik or pike - IMO, why would you take the weight penalty of a zeb over a lyrik or pike????).
Great review! I already bought the 38 Performance Elite for my Trek Slash, but it’s always good to try and understand the actual, on the trail, differences between these two burly forks. I love needing out on MTB spec lol
Hi has anyone tested and compared these two please ? and what`s the feedback on both ? Fox 40 Float FIT GRIP2 Factory 29" Fork - 203mm -Straight - 20x110mm Boost - 2020 VS RockShox BoXXer Ultimate Charger 2.1 RC2 Debon Air 29 Inch Fork - 200mm - Straight - 20x110 mm Boost Maxle Stealth Thanks in advance for any help and info .
good points. you did not mention your high and low speed compression setting on the 38. Im planning to copy your suspension set up on the 38 and maybe tweak it a little bit from there. I feel like i dont get much small bump sensitivity on the 38.
Would really like to hear your comparison of these two forks and the new EXT ERA fork.. i just got mine and it feels amazing but im coming from a 2019 Pike RCT3 @ 160mm
Best review on youtube. I bought the 38s and watched them all. I wasn't ever really sure the difference between the two even after watching a coupple dozen videos. Everyone else just goes over the details on spec but never talk about what they feel on the trails. Perhaps they just don't know how to explain it. Great job.. Ps loose that black box. The feel Mos all you need if you know how to test.
What do you think about Seb's test? Have you been lucky enough to ride one of these forks? Let us know what you think should be the winner in the comments! 🍴
After watching this video (which was very interesting by the way) I only realize I need to learn a lot more about how suspensions really work instead of just fiddling with the knobs and hope for the best... 🙄
I love this Technical analysis! Do more!
Best review on the internet... At last a review with understandable insight and technical backup. Not a "review" to just get one early in, but something of value.
Please more detailed setup and tech reviews. We've enough basic setup videos about sag and then trying out for yourself.
I have similar rebound settings on my dhx2 like you had on the 38.
I have no clue why fox's tune is so weird that you open lsr completely and close hsr nearly completely. Little weird balance /tune
MORE OF NERDY REVIEWS!!!!! Its way more interesting than "oh this feels good" "oh this feels bad"
Sometimes I want to say English please when he gets really into it
Seb - you are by the the most competent, coherent, comprehensive and entertaining reviewer/tester of MTB products on TH-cam. Not overly dumbed down down (most reviews are sucking eggs really), some nice pro-tips and lateral comments which are honest and good to know (e.g. how much stiffness makes a difference in fork vs wheel/tyre) and price consideations or how the Lyrik would still be the better buy in many circumstances. Hope someone at BikeRadar gives you a raise & allows you to dedicate more of your working hours to these sorts of more intricate tests (e.g. for rims or tyres/compounds, cockpit setup, bike sizing, different progressivity's of coils etc).
Well said.
This guy is the best in the suspension department. What he says is usually what's true
Yes this type of review with more technical details is what every magazine should do.who is interested can pick up important details who is no can only be focused on riding characteristics. Please continue :)
Unique approach to quality control 😂😂 finally someone who says it how it is. Watch some of hambini's videos and they'll ruin your opinion of your favourite brands
Exactly, and you'll roll your eyes every time someone talks about the superiority of threaded bottom brackets.
@@erich8258 The fact is with pressfit on bike BBs you get more often than not crooked and misaligned bearing surfaces, therefore threaded BBs are actually less problematic overall. Pressfit could be better, but not with these manufacturing tolerances.
@@silentsnipercbdk this is only because of bad QC, which is the point of the original comment.
@@erich8258 agree with you, but at the end, all we want is less issues, more creak free riding. noone cares about theoretically better solution if practice is different...
please, dont let anyone else on bikeradar (Ok, Tom Marvin is also good) test mtb equipment. You are soo spot on in your analysis and personally you are one of my go to sources for reliable product information.
I really like your reviews 👌 honest 👏
Thanks for watching our reviews!
Fantastic technical review. No silly music and effects! Thanks!!
Absolute best reviewer in the business. He provides and opinion that is backed by solid, creative and “empirical” testing. His suspension reviews are just spot on.
Seb, since you love those long and slack bikes, you own a machine, and have a relationship with Mojo... when are you giving us a detail comparison between your machine and the G1??
Keep making this quality content!
So between the zeb and the 38 just buy a Lyrik
Really enjoyed the technical comparison! Being an engineer first and a rider second, I really appreciate the more scientific approach
One of the best bike part reviews I have seen, plenty of detail amd honesty. Keep it up.
I think it was one of the better MTB reviews I’ve watched so far.
Very detail, but to the point that it keeps it interesting and not boring at all. Very Clear with great explanation. Not too long, but not to short ether.
Great job!
Much Appreciated !!!
P.S.
Subscribed ✅
Thanks! 👍
@@sebstott3573 Hi seb great review. Its sad to hear that you left bikeradar. Are you still gonna be tester/presenter somewhere on youtobe? I have also couple questions for you connected with the test result. Have your opinion changed since the review? Are you still rating Lyrik as the fork you would buy for your own money? Do you think light (160lbs with gear) riders would benefit from 38mm stansions? I have also read that fox don't have enough rebound adjustments for light riders do you have any information about it? I will be gratefull if you find a moment to answer those questions. Cheers mate
holy cow this is an awesome piece. great work seb. i really wish there was enough time to get your thoughts on all sus forks, including your thoughts on air vs coil, memorable forks, and more. perhaps a multipart bikeradar podcast on this, much like the suspension tuning episode.
I've not found any other media that matches the thoroughness of your testing procedures, nor as open about subjective vs objective, and pitfalls in testing methodology. This is the kind content that keeps me coming back for more.
Give this man a raise, this is pure quality.
Really nice indepth review, with someone actually knowing hiw different factors affect each other and not somebody only reading the datasheet and going for how they 'feel'.
We need more of this kind of test .
Great review! A detailed techy review is the only way I want to spend my time watching a review. Any idiot could claim that a certain product is great if they didn't have to explain why.
Great to see the "feel" first, followed by "sciencing" and seeing how the two then correlate together. Very good reviewing there folks.
Keep up the nerdy stuff. 👌
Thanks for the feedback, we're sure to have more in-depth nerdy videos in the future!
Finally some informative review I love this style of reviews! The only thing what I'm missing here is comparison with Manitue Mezzer as this is potentially best SC fork on the market.
Best 38 to ZEB comparison out there. I was waiting for the rebound settings of the 38 and got myself confirmed in running the low speed rebound of my 36 faster than the high speed rebound... pretty much as with my X2 at the rear. Rebound is really the setting, where I don’t wanna miss the separate high and low speed adjusters, whereas the compression damping gets weird when low and high speed settings are too much apart.
Thx for the super nice review, keep up the good work 👍🏻
Seb's videos are my favourite! I would love reviews on less mainstream products, like that Privateer, or a comparison between the zeb, 38, mezzer and era, or even selva.
Please please please more of these nerdy in depth reviews. Absolutely awesome content and so much opportunity to use this format on other products.
I'd love to see a 2021 grip 2 36 vs 38 video next. Then a Zeb vs Lyrik.
Solid review that presents really useful data and I like that the final decision was - let's save a few bucks because they're both so good. Please continue with this format!
i think this is exactly how a good fork test should be, we can actually be confident in your opinion, perfect, now please do the same for brakes :)
Love these suspension test! This is what was searching for!
Best reviews on YT! Thanks Seb for your diligence and scientific approach and not rushing to be the first one to post their 'reviews'.
On the new 38mm diameter forks in general - personally, I believe that unless one is really heavy and/or a world-class, super aggro rider (e.g. Richie Rude), one will not be able to fully unleash the potential of these new forks, nor will they be able to tell a difference (in a blind test) between these and the Fox 36 / Lyrik.
One other realistic application for these new forks may be e-bikes, where e.g. fox 36, with the 34 internals was struggling.
I personally am happy that the appearance of these 38mm forks takes the edge (marketing- and price-wise) off the fox 36 /Lyrik, making them moreaffordable
Great report and testing! You hit the nail on the head regarding the urban legend "the fore-aft flex offers more grip and less fatigue". More fore-aft flex offers only more friction on the bushings and the wipers, therefore worse small bumps compliance, because the stanchions are not diving into the bushings axially.
I ride the 38 and I agree that in corners you do not feel the stiffness difference that much - if you even feel any. On the contrary, in steep sections you feel big difference in the maneuverability of the bike - it feels more accurate in steering - and it allows you to drive faster and safer. This a a very nice upgrade - if you neglect the additional cost.... Never rode the ZEB though - I am really curious to test it now.
Thanks. This was the test we were all waiting for.
FIne! the 38's better, but damn that ZEB looks way better
And its like half the price (in the real world, not msrp)
Agree!
Yea
fox 38 looks great in black
@@pizzagorgonzola it’s more of the boxed arch compared to the 38’s rounded one. And the decals as well
You’ve got the perfect guy for this review I was just hanging on every word
Good format, liked the detail. Missed a few graphs of that suspension data. Loved the conclusion (Lyrik owner here) :D
Great review. Best I’ve seen on this. Like to see comparison between fox 36, 36espec, and 38. Cheers; good work.
10000 views in one day. I find this is really good, the mountain bike world is fire these days
Seb, how do these compare to the Mezzer Pro and the Onyx SC? Cheers!
I haven't got the Onyx but the Mezzer is next up for testing.
@@sebstott3573 now im interested !
Good video, I liked the format and I found it informative. I have purchased a new bike that will come with a Factory 38, I can't wait.
Really loved this comparison! Can't wait to see how they do against the lyrik and 36 respectively!
The best review so for and I would say almost impossible to beat by another bike channel, you should try the fox 38 performance, everybody is just focusing on the high end stuff and theres a bunch of people that we are the set it and forget it type, I personally own a fox 38 performance but have no clue how it compares to others or at least some feedback about how it performs.
the only reviewer you"ll ever need
This was a really good review ! I enjoyed it a lot, please keep them coming !
Very very good review. Much in depth knowledge and interesting details. I very much enjoyed this review. Keep it up!
I can confirm what he said about the air spring on the zeb. Too harsh over light and mid sized bumps, but it hasnt got enough support in the super steep stuff and heavy braking zones. Im looking foreward to buy the formula foam volume spacers, which woul give the zeb the same spring caracteristics as the fox 38. This guy knows what hes talking about!
this is the format more stuff should be tested in inital impressions and data to back it up and provide a comparison. top work guys keep it up
Great review. I also agree that fox’s suggested settings tend to be on the slower side
Great vid 🤓 any issues with the CSUs creaking?
No, thankfully, and I've ridden it pretty hard since March. Are you referring to the Enduro mag review?
@@sebstott3573 My 38's creaked before I gave up on them after 3 replacements, I'm also constantly getting messages from people about them creaking.
I've got a set of 180mm 38. Tons of CSU creaking after a month of riding, sent them away for a week, replaced the entire fork under warranty., and it has been great for 3 months of whistler bike park use.
@@angus2248 Good to hear, I wish mine did as they're great feeling forks like Seb says in the vid.
Love the nerdy stuff man! Keep it up! Cheers!
I love the technical analysis! Most bike reviews are just spooky magic placebo, and it's really nice to see things actually being measured.
I'd love more technical analysis for tire grip and stuff like that. (Also rolling resistance, but bicyclerollingresistance already does a great job with that)
Thanks. Bicycle rolling resistance is a great resource. I've done many roll down tests and constant power tests in the past, but it's difficult to keep all the variables constant (wind and temperature etc.). I'm not sure if testing rolling resistance on a drum is all that useful for MTB, due to the more concave shape of the contact patch on the drum than on the ground, and the fact that bumps can't be simulated realistically. Quantifying grip is even harder!
@@sebstott3573 I'd think you'd be able to get somewhere by putting a constant weight on a bike, and seeing how much force it takes to pull the bike forward with the brakes locked up, on a consistent surface.
That's perhaps quite far from "real world" but i'd think that that would allow you to compare tires quite well.
Absolutely enjoyed the level of nerdyness. One of the best fork reviews out there!
This was a really well put together and thought out video 👍 Keep it up 🤟
Everything is on point, I ride a ZEB fork and I felt that, I never tried a fox 38 to compare tho.
BUT I would like to add that there is a way to make the ZEB super comfortable by adding 3/4 tokens and reducing considerably the pressure, way lower than “recommended” settings.
It used to be super harsh at the beginning of the travel, now it is softer and comfy.
Tokens are indispensable or else you just bottom out every jump with low pressure.
Try this fork again with these kinds of settings, it feels like a fully different (and better) fork.
Please do a video like this for the 2021 Lyrik and Fox 36 as well please. This was excellent. 👏
Love your detailed reviews not sales pitch reviews 👍.
Keep it nerdie. It was really great and informative
I think it's why a lot of the EWS riders were still using or had gone back to using the Lyrik
Excellent review, looking forward seeing more similar videos.
RS have messed up with their own design of air spring reducing negative chamber in all of their 2021+ forks (C1 upgrade). I went back from *new* one to old B1 and feels much better, more supple in mid stroke
Need to revisit this test with the 2023 Zeb
Nice review. I have the Fox 38 on my bike and a Fox rear damper. I love them. Unfortunately, th eprice difference between Rockshox and Fox has become unbearable. In Germany, I could buy the Zeb for 700€, while the Fox retails for the double price. Even though I love the 38 and don't need tokens for the Parc, etc, I hate the fact to pay 1 grand more for the bike, just because it has Fox written on the suspension!
Not too nerdy at all! Enjoyed the review, and the specific differences, both subjective and measured.
Respectfully disagree with regard to the idea that fork stiffness can't create harshness.... i've (subjectively) found my DVO Onyx dual crown to be less harsh than a Fox 40.... and previous versions of the 40 were more harsh than the newer versions, which were actually modified to be less stiff for that exact reason. You may be correct in the single crown arena though.... maybe we can't (yet) create a single crown that is too stiff to the point of harshness... I suspect it's more about resonant frequencies and vibration than flex though... although slight deflection of the fork can be better than deflection of the whole bike (knocked off line).
Fox 38 vs RockShox Zeb
Winner:
RockShox Lyrik
Which was good as thats what i run, so no need to change.
Fantastic review, great detail and well explained
So basically rockshox just made the Zeb coz Fox got the 38. Slam the same internals from the lyrik and hope for the best. Very intuitive review
Great review guys, complete with telemetry to boot. Very technical, I like that. just what I was looking for. Curious, what rise on those renthal barz??
Where’s my fox40 vs boxxer review at
Fox is always far superior
@@Hunter_Bidens_Crackpipe_ yeah fax
Yup Fox won 51% of the DH races, while Rockshox won less than 20%
@@policies8534 Fox vs ohlins vs suntour vs rockshox would make a great shootout tho
@@josejoshuatrinidad5063 well Rockshox won 50% of the xc races than fox
I really enjoyed watching this format of the video, I witched it without skipping thru, also I'm in the market for either of these forks, and what's anther 300.00 buks when your spending over 1000.00. its all on the Credit card same interest rate, hehe
ppl are way over biked nowadays haha, i see enduro bikes on my local xc trails
Hell yea, XC all the way
At least here in Finland most XC-trails are much more fun on an Enduro
To be honest what matters how you feel on the bike... I am over bikes and I like it... Harder to climb but so much more fun on the way down.
Loved this review! More please 🤘🏻
Lyrik 29er with torque caps feels rather stiff
I agree, I've not consciously been aware of steering flex with or without torque caps, but I think torque caps are a smart idea.
Lots of good stuff in there. Good breakdown🤙
Sounds like the Zeb needed a volume spacer. It sounds just like my 2019 36 with no spacers, firmer at the top and blows through the mid. I've experimented at ton with the 36 and it needs 2 volume spacers to work well imo. It allows for lower pressure making it softer on the to and gave the mid and end more support, especially noticeable on the steeps.
For me the one overarching issue with these test is that (I assume) these are out of the box forks. A test of each after 25-35 hours of riding might be more representative of reality. My experience is that most forks feel like themselves after break in.
How many lbs do you weigh? I’m on the ZEB at 59psi & I weigh 165lbs running 1 volume spacer 9 clicks of rebound from closed & 1click of HSC from open & 7 clicks of LSC
Pretty flawless setup so far! Anything over 60psi feels too firm tho & I never really get full travel
I'm 85kg, which is 187 in medieval units. ;)
So the pressure we're running is almost exactly proportional to our respective weight!
@@sebstott3573 Haha awesome thanks for the feedback! I’m just getting into reviewing more products/bikes & love these kinds of in depth details you guys give! Hope to get better over time myself 👍🏼😎
Happy Trails Fellow Shredder🚲❣️
Great video, it was good to have the technical information in there. I'm running a rockshox lyric rc2 on my eBike and really notice the fork flexes loads if I look down the tubes when riding on fire roads etc. The fork actually seems to perform fantastically but I feel like I'd feel better on a more rigid fork. I've found a pair of non eBike fox 38 factory forks cheap and wonder if there will be less flex front to back or the difference will be minimal?
I suspect the reason the fox is substantially stiffer longitudinally is the fact it uses an elliptical steerer tube at the press fit interface with the crown. The rockshox uses a standard circular tube at the same interface
clarkie005 like to see a stiffness comparison between the zeb and 38 on a machine. He mentions the 38 is a lot stiffer than the the 36 but is it actually stiffer than the zeb? Everyone always thought the 36 was stiffer than the lyrik which isn’t true, the lyrik is actually much stiffer, manitous testing for the mezzer showed that. The mezzer was only just stiffer than the lyrik in the end but a lot more than the 36
FOX #1 in performance and looks!
I really enjoyed the review. The technical stuff was great! I am currently looking at getting a Commencal Meta Power SX Race that comes with the Zeb Ultimate. It sounds like the 38 is better and the Zeb struggles a little bit with controlling it's travel. I dont think it'll stop me from buying the bike as I'm sure it's still a great fork, just not the best.
Zebs firmer start and softer mid is likely due to the 2021 'new new' air spring seal head, bigger with smaller neg again, due to the previous 2020 'new' air spring sometimes sagging under bike weight only as the neg was too big! Sounds like they havent found the sweet spot, so I will defo not 'upgrade' to the new new seal head then! I only 'loose' a few mm of travel anyway, so rather have supple start and more supportive mid.
Never turning back! with the Pistachio, so much range to messing about which translate to more fun riding.
Amazing review! Can you compare other manufacturer's forks like DVO, Manitou Mezzer Pro, Cane Creek Helm, etc? Seems like it's only RS or Fox and nothing else 🤣👍
"Unique approach to quality control" lol... it's funny because it's true!
Zeb our 38?
Seb: Lyrik
Great review
So good! Thanks for posting.
i like the nerdy tech!
I would love to see the graphs of the spirng curves you got: are they available anywhere?
Absolutely definitive Seb.
Tech yessss!!! good work, cheers
Great review here. I really enjoy getting into the specifics of suspension performance and setups as it relates to mountain biking. Please keep doing reviews like this. I know a lot about suspension but there is always more I can learn. Also, I completely agree that Fox’s rebound recommendations are on the slow side for the 38. I found this to be the case setting up my 38, but the recommendations for previous forks were pretty spot on, so something to keep in mind for new 38 owners.
Both of these forks are for extreme riders and will both do great
Regardless of what you said, it sounds like you should of tried running a bit less sag on the zeb and added 1 spacer. It’d wouldn’t of affected mid stroke as much as you thought and you could of always added some LSC as you were running it fully open. Small bump would of obviously felt better
Increasing sag/dropping air pressure helps with sensitivity and grip, but has a detrimental effect on mid-stroke support, even with more volume spacers. Even with the setup used for testing, the Zeb already has a significantly softer spring rate/force in the middle of the travel. Adding LSC is a sticking plaster. There's an article to follow on Bikeradar.com which explains this in more detail.
@@sebstott3573 nope that’s exactly what damping is made for...I used to run my forks like that and focus on mid stroke with spring rate alone but it’s better the way I mentioned. You should of tried it, I’ve tried both for years so can comment on both... Just try it mate, you know it only takes 5 mins, you’ll be surprised and may learn something, don’t forget to speed up your rebound a couple of clicks.
@@Manvswild11 I've tried both.
@@sebstott3573 hmmm not sure about that bloke. Anyway, interested to see your take on the mezzer!
Great review :)
Any chance for a video discussing plotted MI data? ;)
Got a Fox Factory 38 (not the latest) coming in the post for my Commencal Clash (mullet'ed, so a 29er fork).
It's replacing a '20 Fox Factory 36 (Orange) 🧡
Can't wait to see how it performs 🤘
Do we enjoy review of a product based on quantified riding data and how that compares to actual feel? Absolutely.
Especially comparing stuff like forks and shocks like this, to each other, and to different products (like, zeb vs lyrik or pike - IMO, why would you take the weight penalty of a zeb over a lyrik or pike????).
I was waiting for this one. In my opinion, you have the best fork review out there. Year after year. Is there a shock review coming?
Great review! I already bought the 38 Performance Elite for my Trek Slash, but it’s always good to try and understand the actual, on the trail, differences between these two burly forks. I love needing out on MTB spec lol
How’s the 38 been on your slash? Currently considering a 38 for my slash 8 because I’m not a fan of the stock yari
@@aoplinger622 Loving the 38 on my slash.
Hi has anyone tested and compared these two please ? and what`s the feedback on both ?
Fox 40 Float FIT GRIP2 Factory 29" Fork - 203mm -Straight - 20x110mm Boost - 2020
VS
RockShox BoXXer Ultimate Charger 2.1 RC2 Debon Air 29 Inch Fork - 200mm - Straight - 20x110 mm Boost Maxle Stealth
Thanks in advance for any help and info .
Neither fork will work well on the Structure SCW1. We'll stick with linkage 😉
Haha, it's not a contest in terms of sensitivity! You just need to send me a bike that fits me!
@@sebstott3573 Fair request, and we're working on getting a few into your neck of the woods early next year!
Awesome review!
good points. you did not mention your high and low speed compression setting on the 38. Im planning to copy your suspension set up on the 38 and maybe tweak it a little bit from there. I feel like i dont get much small bump sensitivity on the 38.
Would really like to hear your comparison of these two forks and the new EXT ERA fork.. i just got mine and it feels amazing but im coming from a 2019 Pike RCT3 @ 160mm
Best review on youtube. I bought the 38s and watched them all. I wasn't ever really sure the difference between the two even after watching a coupple dozen videos. Everyone else just goes over the details on spec but never talk about what they feel on the trails. Perhaps they just don't know how to explain it. Great job.. Ps loose that black box. The feel Mos all you need if you know how to test.