My only issue with this video is he didn't spend a lot of time on armorbane at all. If that rule wasn't in the game vehicles would be in a much better place. As it is now anything with armor bane and AP 1-2 just pops vehicles too easy. It's also easy just to throw a combi melta on something and have a fairly decent chance to one shot a 400 point model.
Really great video! I think your conclusion there is right on: combined arms is the way to go. Infantry offer support and cover a tank's advance while the vehicle's job is to offer firepower in the right direction when needed. The way tanks can't be tagged in combat and are immune to smaller-ams fire and degrading with casualties means they **demand** dedicated forces to address them. On the battlefield and in the psychology of your opponents, they demand attention that allows your line infantry and other playmakers to do their job.
I picked up this game primarily because I didn’t enjoy the competitive nature of 40k but loved the setting. There is a wonderful emphasis of narrative play here that drew me to it. So I say if you think a tank is cool, run it. Paint it, embed it in your Legion. But also, these kinds of videos are great. It’s just good habit to learn and grow as a player. Your tactics have to be just as good as your courtesy and imagination here. Have fun all.
Way I see Predators and the like is basically an upgunned IFV. Supporting another backline unit with additional firepower. Another thing is vehicles leaving wrecks can be a major advantage in keeping line infantry alive. Even when dead that hull is blocking line of sight
I've always noticed that too. Predators aren't true MBTs but up-gunned, up-armored APCs. In-lore apparently faster than the stuff the Imperial Guard use and with the ability to be picked up by a Thunderhawk, but less armored and with less firepower. Which actually is pretty interesting since it fits with space marines being used as actual marines: a highly mobile vanguard and precision strike force. And with the legions breaking into chapters and largely forgoing the use of their superheavy tanks (the real space marine MBTs), that signaled the end of marines operating as actual, full armies and them turning into small special operation cells.
It sounds like some of the maybe-slightly-undercosted units just happen to be good at shooting vehicles. You're right, that doesn't indicate a fundamental problem with the latter. Just be sure not to take a single target for your opponent's heavy weapons to focus on, like the one Spartan everyone now has. I'm curious to see how the shooty army vs. melee army balance works out. It's a complicated question so I assume it's just a matter of seeing how everyone feels after a few months of games.
To quote Phlydaily "no armour is best armour". To expand low armour vehicles tend to be a lower priority to your opponent. Never underestimate a multimelta rhino.
Ya a rhino like that is just enough of a threat that it has to be dealt with and it sucks for your opponent to waste a whole squad of shooting in there. The big issue is that armour needs to have enough threats to overwhelm and cause issues with target priority.
You make some good points I think the fact that you can only return fire with st 6 guns with vehicles where a heavy support fires back whatever it has weakens the case for vehicles slightly. Not saying I won’t use them I’ve land raiders, a Spartan and a few Dreadclaws for my WE it would be a shame to leave them all in the box for this edition. I think 2.0 biggest failure is they made dreads to good a 2+ armour save and over 4 wounds is probably the biggest mistake they have made. I played Legio cybernetica in 1st ed HH and it was a tough list but none of the robots had over 4 wounds 6 or 7 wounds is just a bit to much. It’s a real shame because on the whole they have improved the game although I worry about how well the Custodes will perform having the best dreads and an army full of elite infantry will be a massive headache for any reasonable balanced army.
It does weaken them slightly for sure, but vehicles can also shroud for a 5+++ so not like they cant do anything! I dont think dreads are too good at all, to be honest. They bring so few guns and have so few attacks in melee that you can almost ignore them if you’re playing an infantry-based force, or lock them in combat. They need go be supported by anti infantry weapons in the same way vehicles need anti-AT support. Theyre tough, which is great, but tough alone doesnt win games!
alright, I'm convinced it's not a good idea to put pintle iliastus cannons on every rhino lol. Most everyone in my local is new so the games we played at launch we were ramming each other's spartans for the laugh. Now that everyone's probably bought a kratos this is good info to keep in mind. Love a good math analysis, great video as always!
You're quickly turning into one of my favorite go-to channels for anything HH-realted. Keep up the great work! Incidentally, as someone that's building an Alpha Legion army, our Rights of War aren't vehicle-focused any way, and I'll be going heavy on dreadnoughts and cavalry (i.e. Javalins).
Hey man great video as always!! I abolutely like the way you changed the videos to the powerpoint style. It gives a good overview for all the info from the video and it feels way more alive! could you do some sort of video where you talk about basic army list building? Im completely new to HH and I kinda want to build a list so I know what to build / purchase but I am completely lost in so many regards that I honestly do not even know how to assemble the boxset 😅 like for example how many scoring units should I have? is 1x 10man and 1x 20man squad enough? Also I would still appreciate an alpha legion video 🤩 regards, Flandy!
for me part of the trouble with vehicles is how the "cover" system works, goes right through 40k as well, but basically a 6++ for being almost totally obscured means not a lot of benefit or point to trying - hence there is not much you can do to mitigate incoming fire - if you could get a 5++ it would be a huge help
Great insight looking into all aspects of vehicles. The video series speaking at both a competitive and non competitive sense is also refreshing. Especially talking about how it can be fun for your opponent bringing a mixed list.
do also remember that if you shoot at a heavy support squad can shoot back more affectivly. but on the flip side sniper rifles can out range and pin heavy wepon teams but tanks cant be pinned.
I’m still running a Kratos in my fists with the 430 point load out melta cannon + 4 lascannons! I’ll be naming it the ‘Destroyer’ rule of cool is number one!
Maybe I missed it but does the fact that Vehicle reactions are worse factor into things? Not being able to always shoot back is a downside worth noting compared to Dreads imo since if you shoot at a Leviathan you will suffer.
It does a bit for sure, but they can shroud just fine which is also a great reaction. Its easy to shoot a leviathan from out of range (very short range on a leviathan) and contemptors dont carry that many guns and are at least partially, similarly limited in range. Big HSS reactions are obviously much more impactful but I think the overwhelming point of contention for vehicles is still survivability and cost.
Another great video. I was wondering if you could do either a series of a one off similar to your "how armies play" series, where it's focused on the person who would be going against them? Covering things to watch out for, or some things that might catch you off guard.
I definitely will do that in time, when Ive had more games, but will probably focus more specifically on problem (perceived or otherwise) units for a while first!
@@Hearesy yeah, I was just thinking this morning that as a Night Lords player I don't have the loyalist book, so I was interested in knowing some of the sneaky tricks the loyalists can do! Loving your content and really hope you keep it up!
Also as i don't have twitter to ask, i was wondering what you like about the sabre autocannons and what you use them for, i'm guessing to hit other light tanks and getting some hits on maybe a Contemptor with the str and rend? i have always used my sabres as anti infantry and taken the double Volkite weapons on it so i would love to here other was to use them
Can you talk about your feelings on dreadnoughts? Dreads seem to be crazy good in this edition due to a number of factors such as not being a vehicle, cant instant death them, high toughness and wounds, decent damage output (especially with fists) and generally seem to be way more survivable than other armor. I will say that while the other guys are veterans to Horus Heresy, i am still a new player and lack all the tools to effectively deal with all this armor, but many in the group feel this way as well.
I love your content and have followed you since your podcast days but i swear every video i watch in this series my army is getting slapped down, first it was playing death guard, then it was my heavy bolter HS squads, and now its my sicarian, cant wait to hear the next bad thing i have in my army. 😅 I say this all in jest of course (I have too many contemptors to really complain) the quality of your coverage is brilliant so please keep up the good work! Any plans for a JP HH GT?
Haha I’m sorry! Heavy bolters are looking good when Mechanicum comes out if it helps :) Sicarans are fine if you’re not playing mega serious I think - very glass cannon but some very serious guns!
I thinking making it so only a weapon that can penetrate the armour should be able to glance a tank, also a extra buff to HP would definitely be implemented personally. Also great video bud 👍🏻
Good Video; I think predators w/Predator Autocannon+ Lascannon sponsons, with only 130 for the first 1, and then 115 for the next ones in the squadron, are going to be very good. 475 points for 8 lascannons and 4 predator auto cannons is very good. 30pts for its Las turret is a bit much, but I think the auto cannon + Lascannon sponsons will be very popular/good. Dreadnaughts survivability is probably their strongest point. I think 3 contemptors with fists or a fist and a Gravis melta, you can probably change your enemies plan by charging them strait into the enemy, and they are going to leave your predators alone for a turn or 2
I think the las/las and melta/las are fine too, likewise i think volkite culverin sponsons are also decent (and defensive weps). Plenty of options for variety that are very good, i think most of the turrets could do with being 5 pts or so cheaper though because the turret AC is so good!
@@Hearesy Yeah, I think the sponsons are very reasonably priced, but the turrets are a bit overpriced. I think the Las/Las is good, but at 160pts/145pts they start to get a bit pricey. 30pts is probably too much for the Las turret, even though it is very good. Either way I think the plastic predators will be good and popular.
Didn't know I wanted this video, but it was great! Loved the short dive into the predators, hadn't really considered them before but now I want a couple for my Blood Angels! When you get round to Blood Angels for your faction deep dive, I'm really interested on your thinking for Heavy Weapon Squads equipped with Iliastus Assault Cannons! They seem quite expensive, but the sheer amount of rending makes me giddy 😂 I'm thinking about putting a couple into my Veteran Squads at the very least.
After Reading the comments I am very happy to play with these newbie's. I started 40k 1st week of release, I started HH the week of release first edition remember this is not 9th edition and is more narrative play
It’s like applying tactics and strategy to get the best out of your models. Everything has a counter, a well constructed/deployed army will give your opponents headaches. Everything can be defeated in the game, the idea is to have multiple solutions so no one unit is the unit you need to win.
So listening to your videos I think you should add 2 more point of consideration. 1 availability of the stuff your covering. Many players are just getting in to HH doe to the new box set. Those box sets are well distributed all over. The initial release though is keeping high powered weapons to the dread and the few vehicles released. I think that makes then alot stronger. Unless you run into a player with deep pocket$ or a player who has been playing for some time, your not likely going to run into a 10x man lascannon heavy squad. For the near future, many of the very powerful units are locked behind the forgeworld wall. This brings me to the second item. Cost! Some players just can't afford to spend $100us for 10x marines. Especially after dropping $300 on the main box. I think your topics are great for established players. Can you add these points in and advise on weather or not you feel this unit is worth prioritizing over other units?
Any thoughts on the Super Heavys? Looking forward to trying my Fellblade out in the new edition. Once I figure out how the Accelerator Cannon AE profile works anyway (how does an Ordnance weapon with Armourbane work?). Very annoying that I can't use it in a Terror Assault list though. What's more terrifying than a 300 ton tank?
i really love vehicles (even in 40k where they suck pretty much, but its gotten better in the last few changes) despite all the chatter and myself flipping out over the one-shot thing. the "problem" is ... i'm a space wolves player and love their infantry as well XD (and currently we in our local group run smaller battles since we need time to build up the armies because we all began with 2nd edition heresy)
Really interesting video, thank you! I would be curious as to where you see the humble Rhino fits into all of this. I'm currently leaning into the idea of running Ultramarines mechanised infantry using the Logos Lectora RoW.
Rhinos are great, either as a transport or with a gun. Mechanises ultras sounds great - the rhinos could trigger the +1 to hit for whatever jumps out of them, like meltas or plasmas!
A point on mobility is line of sight. Ten lascannons will obliterate almost all vehicles, but of they can't see their target they can't shoot. Popping around a corner to shoot things like a HSS with volkite culverins or other guns that can't hurt you (like sniper seekers or special weapons that are out of range). Ideally you'll still be out of sight from you opponents anti tank.
@@Hearesy don't want to be rude, but I can't help but to feel that when there's a lot of complaint and strong opinions around certain unit types, it often comes down to user error. I really appreciate having a tactically sound voice in the community! Keep up the great work :)
If you're gonna use gunline Vehicles, you probably want a Telekinesis Librarian around to give them an Invul Save. Ignoring half of your opponent's Lascannons is gonna help a lot.
i get that the maths make them seem not so bad but i disagree with the alive or dead because of the damage chart causing multiple lack of move and multiple results meaning you are snap shooting. Dreads don't have that effect and also cant be ruined by a lucky shot
Yeah, absolutely. The vehicle damage chart is way more than just 1/6 = explodes. Dreadnoughts are also equally tough all around, Predators have a rear AV of 10 (vulnerable to bolters, probably wrecked in a single round of combat against Tactical marines) but this video only seems to cover front armour, unless I missed it. And so many more things that make Dreads better too: vehicle weapons have limited arcs, defensive/battle weapons make reactions worse, vehicles are bigger and harder to hit or move between terrain, vehicles can be immobilised by terrain, vehicles have limits to moving and firing, etc. etc. etc. None of this is reflected in the maths of calculating a lascannon vs. AV14 or T7/8, but all of it is reflected on tabletop experience and is what have led just about everybody who plays this game to conclude that vehicles are worse.
I've only played 3 games but so far in my experience Vehicles seem more balanced than before so far and Imo they feel like they need support like they should to be successful
I've been having people telling me for years that vehicles suck. Those same people quickly target the vehicles above everything else. I have a nasty tendency of losing weapons on them and then I just charge them up the field to block the line of sight of their heavy weapons. They end up wasting another round trying to clear their view or running the chance of my tank becoming a part of the terrain. Then those heavy weapons have to move to do more damage. I just have to make sure that things are as obstructed as possible until they leave my deployment zone 🤣
Being able to one shot a unit worth as much (or more) than a Dreadnought is bad, be it compared to a Dreadnought, or a unit of 10 Heavy support dudes with lascannons. Infantry get cover, medics, and are easier to hide, Dreadnoughts have high toughness and plenty of wounds, and don't lose effectiveness until they are destroyed. Both of them get armour saves, which vehicles never have, even against a bolter shot to the rear facing. Infantry and Dreads can be locked in combat, but that means they can't be shot at in the meantime. This is Heresy, so expect 10 lascannons with BS5, or something to that effect. Whatever the vehicle, with so many high quality shots, you'd have to be really lucky not to have a vehicle crippled on turn 1. But rather than consider that Dreadnoughts are too good, I'd rather think that vehicles should be brought up to the level of Dreadnoughts. You're right, they're not the same thing, a vehicle can't melee, vehicles can't be damaged by small arms (most of the time, there are always exceptions), but are extra susceptible to anti armour weapons... It isn't so much losing a unit on turn 1 that is bad, after all concentrated fire will remove dreadnoughts if they get caught out. The problem is the fluke hit that rolls all the 6's. But there's a house rule to make them better; Don't use the damage table until the last hull point. No more lucky shot explodes a vehicle while it still has hull points. No more losing the main weapon on turn 1 before doing anything. This makes them almost as survivable as Dreadnoughts and that's all they really need.
I’d take a spartan if you want to deliver a big unit - not for the battle tank abilities. If you want a heavy tank, the land raider is a good choice whether you put troops in it or not.
For me, There are so many armourbane/sunder weapons. while dreads get a 5++ inv saves and are immune to damage rolls or effects/melta/armourbane/sunder and can take so many more wounds because of it. Then add in 2+ saves and bs5 and it gets abit silly. the legacy ferrum/box dreads have the same output as a contemptor for about 40pts less. lose a pip of T and 1W but the 2+/5++ keeps them up. Autocannons are just too good
The maths on this shows that the gulf isnt as big as youd think it is. Dreadnoughts are still “better” survivability wise, for sure, but are less good at other things (eg number of guns they bring, being tied up in combat) so I dont think the difference is as vast as it seems on paper.
@@abbadonslostarms-kbd1393 Castra Ferrum Dreadnoughts are good for firepower but they don’t have anywhere near the staying power of Contemptors. Plus they are ponderous and slow - move of 6 and an initiative of 2 means you aren’t getting anywhere in a hurry. They are very vulnerable to plasma guns, warpfire blasters and any other mid-strength weapon with breaching.
@@leakycheese one less wound and Toughness but still got 2+/5++ and the same output in firepower and about 30-40pts cheaper per model than a contemptor. I know vehicles have some advantages but I'd still rather face them than dreads
@@abbadonslostarms-kbd1393 I'm just saying only yesterday when I was gaming I saw my Word Bearer Castra Ferrum dread easily go down to breaching 4+ weapons in a way a Contemptor would not have. My Mhara Gal, Leviathan and Deredeo were excellent though - those are the chassis where the real dreadnought power lies.
I was eyeing the Sabres as my fast attack choices for my Iron Tenth. Not quite tanks, but mobile shots that may be super distracting as they look like tanks/Heavy Support choice. I could see myself getting a Squad of 4 predatorss to cover my line units or box in units in combat. I am not interested in super heavies and Lords of War tho. At least not now.
Something you missed: vehicles cant react the same way as dreadnoughts or infantry. A dreadnought or HSS can have 3 chances to shoot per turn, in their shooting phase, shooting reaction and assault reaction, with no limit on what they can shoot. Vehicles can only shoot their good weapons once. In my opinion this makes them worse per point spent than other heavy weapon platforms.
After playing a few games a good healthy mix of vehicles and dreads is probley the best. Forgot to mention that vehicles can get search lights. This is a great way to slaughter Las hvy teams and force opponents to shoot at what you want.
Dont be put off fielding one - it wont be a dud at all. You just have to keep it safe and protect it with terrain, other units, distractions, etc. Only if youre playing super serious are they “bad” otherwise it’ll be just fine once you figure out how to use it well!
Vehicles are a mixed bag… some seem great, but then you have the macharius omega, which has a 16% chance to die to a 10 man tac squad shooting its rear armor. The model is 600 points lol
At about 21-22 min th-cam.com/video/LjhL85rG5aY/w-d-xo.html you make the point about spamming vehicles, you're not wrong that it's a fair criticism of 1.0, but that would have been something to improve upon by lowering the number of tanks in squadrons from the absurd levels in some cases, and making primarily armoured armies not viable or legal in matched play. They didn't do either, they also made ap of templates way worse than they had to. Combined arms is indeed a fun way to play but a problem of both editions is they want their cake and to eat it too in terms of sating fluff bunnies, so as flexible as the army lists are you can make truly janky lists that are a little too thematic to be fun for everyone, I really wish they'd clamp down and force combined arms with list building limitations instead of vast changes that aren't needed. Change for the sake of it is bad enough but they've really messed things up with 2.0, it's not an improvement by any means. Sticking with 1.0. Also the point costs in the pdf's for plenty of the vehicles are way off, not to mention changing javelins to not be vehicles and making them half the speed of sabres is weird.
The main difference with NL/IW is that autocannons get good vs av13 and lascannons close the gap vs av15. But it doesnt really materially change your choice, they both just get better. I would definitely use autocannons in NL/IW, whereas in most legions id just bring more lascannons.
@@Hearesy so if you where planning on running a predator squadron for night lords would you take the predator cannon and lascannon sponsons cause that's what I'm thinking since it's 30 points less than the lascannon gun for strength 9 though i guess the lack of ap2 might be annoying
If you are collecting for the meta, then the financial investment may come into question. However, if you are printing these models its rarely a consideration
You keep talking about vehicles being immune to small arms where Dreadnoughts aren't... but anyone shooting small arms at Dreadnoughts are wasting their time. They're VASTLY less likely to take a wound from a bolter than a tank is to be blown up in one shot, which you keep dismissing as a lucky hit. They're functionally immune, if not strictly mathematically immune. I think what you're really missing here is that people started playing HH2 with vehicles, then realised that the only thing surviving to the end of the game was Dreadnoughts (I've had multiple games like that). The perception that vehicles aren't as good isn't based on nothing. It's based on tabletop experience. Is everyone in the entire community just getting freak results on the tabletop? Hardly.
Sorry i see this is only limited to the vehicles in the book, only looking at those I agree with your assessment. The pdf really screwed up the vehicles.
@@Hearesy definitely. Have you had a look at the liber panoptica? It's a fan made pdf, almost exactly like the one GW made... but without alot of the suck. I'd love to see it get more love, as it makes alot of the "legends" models viable
Im 100% scouse with 20+ years of living abroad and working in london, enough to curtail my accident when speaking to non-scousers! Im way more scouse when im not on video, haha.
I don't understand why they took out Armoured Ceramite. Easy fix on the meltagun issue. Meltabombs always got past Armoured Ceramite. But GW's rule-writing, over the past 10 years or so, has been lacking and nonsensical at times.
I think armoured ceramite going is good for bookkeeping. And i dont think meltaguns are an issue - theyre so expensive and you have to deliver them! If you dont protect your tanks thats your fault. Granted this is a weakness dreads dont have, but not the end of the world i dont think.
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I say it a lot but it's great to have someone actually thinking things through and putting well informed opinions
My only issue with this video is he didn't spend a lot of time on armorbane at all. If that rule wasn't in the game vehicles would be in a much better place. As it is now anything with armor bane and AP 1-2 just pops vehicles too easy. It's also easy just to throw a combi melta on something and have a fairly decent chance to one shot a 400 point model.
@@alhitch8173 Yes - or meltabombs.
Really great video! I think your conclusion there is right on: combined arms is the way to go. Infantry offer support and cover a tank's advance while the vehicle's job is to offer firepower in the right direction when needed. The way tanks can't be tagged in combat and are immune to smaller-ams fire and degrading with casualties means they **demand** dedicated forces to address them. On the battlefield and in the psychology of your opponents, they demand attention that allows your line infantry and other playmakers to do their job.
I picked up this game primarily because I didn’t enjoy the competitive nature of 40k but loved the setting. There is a wonderful emphasis of narrative play here that drew me to it. So I say if you think a tank is cool, run it. Paint it, embed it in your Legion.
But also, these kinds of videos are great. It’s just good habit to learn and grow as a player. Your tactics have to be just as good as your courtesy and imagination here.
Have fun all.
Way I see Predators and the like is basically an upgunned IFV. Supporting another backline unit with additional firepower. Another thing is vehicles leaving wrecks can be a major advantage in keeping line infantry alive. Even when dead that hull is blocking line of sight
I've always noticed that too. Predators aren't true MBTs but up-gunned, up-armored APCs.
In-lore apparently faster than the stuff the Imperial Guard use and with the ability to be picked up by a Thunderhawk, but less armored and with less firepower. Which actually is pretty interesting since it fits with space marines being used as actual marines: a highly mobile vanguard and precision strike force.
And with the legions breaking into chapters and largely forgoing the use of their superheavy tanks (the real space marine MBTs), that signaled the end of marines operating as actual, full armies and them turning into small special operation cells.
Thank you for continually talking about fun vs. competitive. It keeps me coming back!
Thanks Chris!
It sounds like some of the maybe-slightly-undercosted units just happen to be good at shooting vehicles. You're right, that doesn't indicate a fundamental problem with the latter. Just be sure not to take a single target for your opponent's heavy weapons to focus on, like the one Spartan everyone now has.
I'm curious to see how the shooty army vs. melee army balance works out. It's a complicated question so I assume it's just a matter of seeing how everyone feels after a few months of games.
Excellent again. Loved it. I’m happier about getting more vehicles now. Yay!! I play narrative anyways. But it’s all reassuring. :)
To quote Phlydaily "no armour is best armour".
To expand low armour vehicles tend to be a lower priority to your opponent. Never underestimate a multimelta rhino.
Ya a rhino like that is just enough of a threat that it has to be dealt with and it sucks for your opponent to waste a whole squad of shooting in there.
The big issue is that armour needs to have enough threats to overwhelm and cause issues with target priority.
You make some good points I think the fact that you can only return fire with st 6 guns with vehicles where a heavy support fires back whatever it has weakens the case for vehicles slightly. Not saying I won’t use them I’ve land raiders, a Spartan and a few Dreadclaws for my WE it would be a shame to leave them all in the box for this edition.
I think 2.0 biggest failure is they made dreads to good a 2+ armour save and over 4 wounds is probably the biggest mistake they have made.
I played Legio cybernetica in 1st ed HH and it was a tough list but none of the robots had over 4 wounds 6 or 7 wounds is just a bit to much. It’s a real shame because on the whole they have improved the game although I worry about how well the Custodes will perform having the best dreads and an army full of elite infantry will be a massive headache for any reasonable balanced army.
It does weaken them slightly for sure, but vehicles can also shroud for a 5+++ so not like they cant do anything!
I dont think dreads are too good at all, to be honest. They bring so few guns and have so few attacks in melee that you can almost ignore them if you’re playing an infantry-based force, or lock them in combat. They need go be supported by anti infantry weapons in the same way vehicles need anti-AT support.
Theyre tough, which is great, but tough alone doesnt win games!
alright, I'm convinced it's not a good idea to put pintle iliastus cannons on every rhino lol. Most everyone in my local is new so the games we played at launch we were ramming each other's spartans for the laugh. Now that everyone's probably bought a kratos this is good info to keep in mind. Love a good math analysis, great video as always!
You're quickly turning into one of my favorite go-to channels for anything HH-realted. Keep up the great work!
Incidentally, as someone that's building an Alpha Legion army, our Rights of War aren't vehicle-focused any way, and I'll be going heavy on dreadnoughts and cavalry (i.e. Javalins).
You’re not wrong, but -2” to charge vehicles, and +2” range to shoot them with melta weapons, are both really good vehicle bonuses too!
Good material you have here. The big question is...when is the Iron Warriors video coming?
Hey man great video as always!!
I abolutely like the way you changed the videos to the powerpoint style. It gives a good overview for all the info from the video and it feels way more alive!
could you do some sort of video where you talk about basic army list building?
Im completely new to HH and I kinda want to build a list so I know what to build / purchase but I am completely lost in so many regards that I honestly do not even know how to assemble the boxset 😅
like for example how many scoring units should I have? is 1x 10man and 1x 20man squad enough?
Also I would still appreciate an alpha legion video 🤩
regards,
Flandy!
for me part of the trouble with vehicles is how the "cover" system works, goes right through 40k as well, but basically a 6++ for being almost totally obscured means not a lot of benefit or point to trying - hence there is not much you can do to mitigate incoming fire - if you could get a 5++ it would be a huge help
The better question is: are vehicles cool in Horus Heresy? And the answer is yes, cool as hell.
Discussed this in the video, worth watching before commenting!
@@Hearesy I commented mid-watch, so I guess I'll just keep watching.
Also. Now you've mentioned Sabres. I'd love to see a video on them!
I scored two on ebay but will have to kitbash the autocannons. They are savage in iron warriors.
Great insight looking into all aspects of vehicles. The video series speaking at both a competitive and non competitive sense is also refreshing. Especially talking about how it can be fun for your opponent bringing a mixed list.
Such a great channel, love the no nonsense straight to the point videos. Keep it up matey!
Thank you!
do also remember that if you shoot at a heavy support squad can shoot back more affectivly.
but on the flip side sniper rifles can out range and pin heavy wepon teams but tanks cant be pinned.
I’m still running a Kratos in my fists with the 430 point load out melta cannon + 4 lascannons! I’ll be naming it the ‘Destroyer’ rule of cool is number one!
Maybe I missed it but does the fact that Vehicle reactions are worse factor into things? Not being able to always shoot back is a downside worth noting compared to Dreads imo since if you shoot at a Leviathan you will suffer.
It does a bit for sure, but they can shroud just fine which is also a great reaction.
Its easy to shoot a leviathan from out of range (very short range on a leviathan) and contemptors dont carry that many guns and are at least partially, similarly limited in range.
Big HSS reactions are obviously much more impactful but I think the overwhelming point of contention for vehicles is still survivability and cost.
Another great video. I was wondering if you could do either a series of a one off similar to your "how armies play" series, where it's focused on the person who would be going against them? Covering things to watch out for, or some things that might catch you off guard.
I definitely will do that in time, when Ive had more games, but will probably focus more specifically on problem (perceived or otherwise) units for a while first!
@@Hearesy yeah, I was just thinking this morning that as a Night Lords player I don't have the loyalist book, so I was interested in knowing some of the sneaky tricks the loyalists can do!
Loving your content and really hope you keep it up!
Love your channel, very informative, great output and such. Keep it up 😊
Thank you!
Also as i don't have twitter to ask, i was wondering what you like about the sabre autocannons and what you use them for, i'm guessing to hit other light tanks and getting some hits on maybe a Contemptor with the str and rend? i have always used my sabres as anti infantry and taken the double Volkite weapons on it so i would love to here other was to use them
Great video, very informative! Would love video like this about flyers, how to use them, what’s good / bad and how to counter? etc..
Rule of cool is another important reason too. Tanks look badass. Playing without them is just… dull
Can you talk about your feelings on dreadnoughts? Dreads seem to be crazy good in this edition due to a number of factors such as not being a vehicle, cant instant death them, high toughness and wounds, decent damage output (especially with fists) and generally seem to be way more survivable than other armor. I will say that while the other guys are veterans to Horus Heresy, i am still a new player and lack all the tools to effectively deal with all this armor, but many in the group feel this way as well.
Yes sir, sounds like a good idea!
Grab some grav weapons and watch them melt
Great video thanks most informative. This will definitely help me in building my army! Cheers!
I love your content and have followed you since your podcast days but i swear every video i watch in this series my army is getting slapped down, first it was playing death guard, then it was my heavy bolter HS squads, and now its my sicarian, cant wait to hear the next bad thing i have in my army. 😅 I say this all in jest of course (I have too many contemptors to really complain) the quality of your coverage is brilliant so please keep up the good work! Any plans for a JP HH GT?
Haha I’m sorry! Heavy bolters are looking good when Mechanicum comes out if it helps :) Sicarans are fine if you’re not playing mega serious I think - very glass cannon but some very serious guns!
I thinking making it so only a weapon that can penetrate the armour should be able to glance a tank, also a extra buff to HP would definitely be implemented personally.
Also great video bud 👍🏻
Good Video;
I think predators w/Predator Autocannon+ Lascannon sponsons, with only 130 for the first 1, and then 115 for the next ones in the squadron, are going to be very good. 475 points for 8 lascannons and 4 predator auto cannons is very good. 30pts for its Las turret is a bit much, but I think the auto cannon + Lascannon sponsons will be very popular/good.
Dreadnaughts survivability is probably their strongest point. I think 3 contemptors with fists or a fist and a Gravis melta, you can probably change your enemies plan by charging them strait into the enemy, and they are going to leave your predators alone for a turn or 2
I think the las/las and melta/las are fine too, likewise i think volkite culverin sponsons are also decent (and defensive weps). Plenty of options for variety that are very good, i think most of the turrets could do with being 5 pts or so cheaper though because the turret AC is so good!
@@Hearesy Yeah, I think the sponsons are very reasonably priced, but the turrets are a bit overpriced. I think the Las/Las is good, but at 160pts/145pts they start to get a bit pricey. 30pts is probably too much for the Las turret, even though it is very good.
Either way I think the plastic predators will be good and popular.
Didn't know I wanted this video, but it was great! Loved the short dive into the predators, hadn't really considered them before but now I want a couple for my Blood Angels!
When you get round to Blood Angels for your faction deep dive, I'm really interested on your thinking for Heavy Weapon Squads equipped with Iliastus Assault Cannons! They seem quite expensive, but the sheer amount of rending makes me giddy 😂 I'm thinking about putting a couple into my Veteran Squads at the very least.
I cover them in my fists video - theyre awesome!
@@Hearesy Ooh fantastic, I skipped that one, will take a look!
After Reading the comments I am very happy to play with these newbie's. I started 40k 1st week of release, I started HH the week of release first edition remember this is not 9th edition and is more narrative play
It’s like applying tactics and strategy to get the best out of your models. Everything has a counter, a well constructed/deployed army will give your opponents headaches. Everything can be defeated in the game, the idea is to have multiple solutions so no one unit is the unit you need to win.
I think you just described “combined arms.”
That's a massively optimistic take on the game that maybe GW were trying to make, maybe, but it's not the game they made.
So listening to your videos I think you should add 2 more point of consideration. 1 availability of the stuff your covering. Many players are just getting in to HH doe to the new box set. Those box sets are well distributed all over. The initial release though is keeping high powered weapons to the dread and the few vehicles released. I think that makes then alot stronger. Unless you run into a player with deep pocket$ or a player who has been playing for some time, your not likely going to run into a 10x man lascannon heavy squad. For the near future, many of the very powerful units are locked behind the forgeworld wall. This brings me to the second item. Cost! Some players just can't afford to spend $100us for 10x marines. Especially after dropping $300 on the main box.
I think your topics are great for established players. Can you add these points in and advise on weather or not you feel this unit is worth prioritizing over other units?
Any thoughts on the Super Heavys? Looking forward to trying my Fellblade out in the new edition. Once I figure out how the Accelerator Cannon AE profile works anyway (how does an Ordnance weapon with Armourbane work?). Very annoying that I can't use it in a Terror Assault list though. What's more terrifying than a 300 ton tank?
Definitely a super heavy video at some point!
i really love vehicles (even in 40k where they suck pretty much, but its gotten better in the last few changes)
despite all the chatter and myself flipping out over the one-shot thing.
the "problem" is ... i'm a space wolves player and love their infantry as well XD
(and currently we in our local group run smaller battles since we need time to build up the armies because we all began with 2nd edition heresy)
Really interesting video, thank you! I would be curious as to where you see the humble Rhino fits into all of this. I'm currently leaning into the idea of running Ultramarines mechanised infantry using the Logos Lectora RoW.
Rhinos are great, either as a transport or with a gun. Mechanises ultras sounds great - the rhinos could trigger the +1 to hit for whatever jumps out of them, like meltas or plasmas!
Brilliant!
Me and my friend played a mission a few days ago that made vehicles scoring units
A point on mobility is line of sight. Ten lascannons will obliterate almost all vehicles, but of they can't see their target they can't shoot. Popping around a corner to shoot things like a HSS with volkite culverins or other guns that can't hurt you (like sniper seekers or special weapons that are out of range). Ideally you'll still be out of sight from you opponents anti tank.
Hull downing is a great tactic. Driving light tanks around in the open is how you lose them!
@@Hearesy don't want to be rude, but I can't help but to feel that when there's a lot of complaint and strong opinions around certain unit types, it often comes down to user error. I really appreciate having a tactically sound voice in the community! Keep up the great work :)
If you're gonna use gunline Vehicles, you probably want a Telekinesis Librarian around to give them an Invul Save. Ignoring half of your opponent's Lascannons is gonna help a lot.
i get that the maths make them seem not so bad but i disagree with the alive or dead because of the damage chart causing multiple lack of move and multiple results meaning you are snap shooting. Dreads don't have that effect and also cant be ruined by a lucky shot
Yeah, absolutely. The vehicle damage chart is way more than just 1/6 = explodes.
Dreadnoughts are also equally tough all around, Predators have a rear AV of 10 (vulnerable to bolters, probably wrecked in a single round of combat against Tactical marines) but this video only seems to cover front armour, unless I missed it. And so many more things that make Dreads better too: vehicle weapons have limited arcs, defensive/battle weapons make reactions worse, vehicles are bigger and harder to hit or move between terrain, vehicles can be immobilised by terrain, vehicles have limits to moving and firing, etc. etc. etc. None of this is reflected in the maths of calculating a lascannon vs. AV14 or T7/8, but all of it is reflected on tabletop experience and is what have led just about everybody who plays this game to conclude that vehicles are worse.
I've only played 3 games but so far in my experience Vehicles seem more balanced than before so far and Imo they feel like they need support like they should to be successful
I've been having people telling me for years that vehicles suck.
Those same people quickly target the vehicles above everything else. I have a nasty tendency of losing weapons on them and then I just charge them up the field to block the line of sight of their heavy weapons. They end up wasting another round trying to clear their view or running the chance of my tank becoming a part of the terrain. Then those heavy weapons have to move to do more damage. I just have to make sure that things are as obstructed as possible until they leave my deployment zone 🤣
Great tactics!
Being able to one shot a unit worth as much (or more) than a Dreadnought is bad, be it compared to a Dreadnought, or a unit of 10 Heavy support dudes with lascannons. Infantry get cover, medics, and are easier to hide, Dreadnoughts have high toughness and plenty of wounds, and don't lose effectiveness until they are destroyed. Both of them get armour saves, which vehicles never have, even against a bolter shot to the rear facing.
Infantry and Dreads can be locked in combat, but that means they can't be shot at in the meantime.
This is Heresy, so expect 10 lascannons with BS5, or something to that effect. Whatever the vehicle, with so many high quality shots, you'd have to be really lucky not to have a vehicle crippled on turn 1.
But rather than consider that Dreadnoughts are too good, I'd rather think that vehicles should be brought up to the level of Dreadnoughts. You're right, they're not the same thing, a vehicle can't melee, vehicles can't be damaged by small arms (most of the time, there are always exceptions), but are extra susceptible to anti armour weapons...
It isn't so much losing a unit on turn 1 that is bad, after all concentrated fire will remove dreadnoughts if they get caught out. The problem is the fluke hit that rolls all the 6's.
But there's a house rule to make them better; Don't use the damage table until the last hull point.
No more lucky shot explodes a vehicle while it still has hull points. No more losing the main weapon on turn 1 before doing anything. This makes them almost as survivable as Dreadnoughts and that's all they really need.
What do you think about Spartans? Worth taking? Or better off spending those points on Land Raiders?
I’d take a spartan if you want to deliver a big unit - not for the battle tank abilities. If you want a heavy tank, the land raider is a good choice whether you put troops in it or not.
For me, There are so many armourbane/sunder weapons. while dreads get a 5++ inv saves and are immune to damage rolls or effects/melta/armourbane/sunder and can take so many more wounds because of it.
Then add in 2+ saves and bs5 and it gets abit silly. the legacy ferrum/box dreads have the same output as a contemptor for about 40pts less. lose a pip of T and 1W but the 2+/5++ keeps them up. Autocannons are just too good
The maths on this shows that the gulf isnt as big as youd think it is. Dreadnoughts are still “better” survivability wise, for sure, but are less good at other things (eg number of guns they bring, being tied up in combat) so I dont think the difference is as vast as it seems on paper.
@@Hearesy I get that,but I'd sooner face a list with 6 tanks than 6 dreads.
@@abbadonslostarms-kbd1393 Castra Ferrum Dreadnoughts are good for firepower but they don’t have anywhere near the staying power of Contemptors. Plus they are ponderous and slow - move of 6 and an initiative of 2 means you aren’t getting anywhere in a hurry. They are very vulnerable to plasma guns, warpfire blasters and any other mid-strength weapon with breaching.
@@leakycheese one less wound and Toughness but still got 2+/5++ and the same output in firepower and about 30-40pts cheaper per model than a contemptor.
I know vehicles have some advantages but I'd still rather face them than dreads
@@abbadonslostarms-kbd1393 I'm just saying only yesterday when I was gaming I saw my Word Bearer Castra Ferrum dread easily go down to breaching 4+ weapons in a way a Contemptor would not have.
My Mhara Gal, Leviathan and Deredeo were excellent though - those are the chassis where the real dreadnought power lies.
I was eyeing the Sabres as my fast attack choices for my Iron Tenth. Not quite tanks, but mobile shots that may be super distracting as they look like tanks/Heavy Support choice.
I could see myself getting a Squad of 4 predatorss to cover my line units or box in units in combat. I am not interested in super heavies and Lords of War tho. At least not now.
Same! Flanking head of the gorgon sabres will be great
Sabres with neutron blasters can be brutal snipers to dreads or vehicles, forcing them to snap shoot
Great video!
Thanks!
Love it!
Thanks!
Something you missed: vehicles cant react the same way as dreadnoughts or infantry.
A dreadnought or HSS can have 3 chances to shoot per turn, in their shooting phase, shooting reaction and assault reaction, with no limit on what they can shoot. Vehicles can only shoot their good weapons once.
In my opinion this makes them worse per point spent than other heavy weapon platforms.
After playing a few games a good healthy mix of vehicles and dreads is probley the best. Forgot to mention that vehicles can get search lights. This is a great way to slaughter Las hvy teams and force opponents to shoot at what you want.
Where are you seeing AV15 vehicles? Are my books misprinted?
I think (not sure) it's Titans and stuff like that.
Was looking forward to fielding a sicaran now i hope it won’t be a complete dud…
Dont be put off fielding one - it wont be a dud at all. You just have to keep it safe and protect it with terrain, other units, distractions, etc. Only if youre playing super serious are they “bad” otherwise it’ll be just fine once you figure out how to use it well!
As an iron warriors player i rigged up a 10 man lascannon squad not a single vehicle survives its just fucked
That's on you for bringing 10 IW lascannons..
If you shoot 250+ points of IW lascannons at a predator every turn your opponent is probably OK with it!
@@Tom_Cruise_Missile we’re all still experimenting with it I just had ten lascannons from the ton of 40k devastators I used and eBay
Havocs or HS Team? I just finished my lascannons last night to go with my autos
@@nathanwright7154 just a heavy support team havocs didn’t have rules yet
Vehicles are a mixed bag… some seem great, but then you have the macharius omega, which has a 16% chance to die to a 10 man tac squad shooting its rear armor. The model is 600 points lol
*laughs in Armoured Company*
At about 21-22 min th-cam.com/video/LjhL85rG5aY/w-d-xo.html you make the point about spamming vehicles, you're not wrong that it's a fair criticism of 1.0, but that would have been something to improve upon by lowering the number of tanks in squadrons from the absurd levels in some cases, and making primarily armoured armies not viable or legal in matched play. They didn't do either, they also made ap of templates way worse than they had to. Combined arms is indeed a fun way to play but a problem of both editions is they want their cake and to eat it too in terms of sating fluff bunnies, so as flexible as the army lists are you can make truly janky lists that are a little too thematic to be fun for everyone, I really wish they'd clamp down and force combined arms with list building limitations instead of vast changes that aren't needed. Change for the sake of it is bad enough but they've really messed things up with 2.0, it's not an improvement by any means. Sticking with 1.0. Also the point costs in the pdf's for plenty of the vehicles are way off, not to mention changing javelins to not be vehicles and making them half the speed of sabres is weird.
Does anyone have the maths on how those anti Tank weapons stack up with +1 to armour penetration Rolls from the night Lord Legion trait ?
The main difference with NL/IW is that autocannons get good vs av13 and lascannons close the gap vs av15. But it doesnt really materially change your choice, they both just get better.
I would definitely use autocannons in NL/IW, whereas in most legions id just bring more lascannons.
@@Hearesy so if you where planning on running a predator squadron for night lords would you take the predator cannon and lascannon sponsons cause that's what I'm thinking since it's 30 points less than the lascannon gun for strength 9 though i guess the lack of ap2 might be annoying
Id run the pred cannon and lascannon in most legions, pred cannon is really good (and i think looks classic!) but ESPECIALLY yes in your setup
@@Hearesy alright thanks i agree the cannon looks great 👍
If you are collecting for the meta, then the financial investment may come into question. However, if you are printing these models its rarely a consideration
You keep talking about vehicles being immune to small arms where Dreadnoughts aren't... but anyone shooting small arms at Dreadnoughts are wasting their time. They're VASTLY less likely to take a wound from a bolter than a tank is to be blown up in one shot, which you keep dismissing as a lucky hit. They're functionally immune, if not strictly mathematically immune.
I think what you're really missing here is that people started playing HH2 with vehicles, then realised that the only thing surviving to the end of the game was Dreadnoughts (I've had multiple games like that). The perception that vehicles aren't as good isn't based on nothing. It's based on tabletop experience. Is everyone in the entire community just getting freak results on the tabletop? Hardly.
They are not great. Some are still compatitive but most are easily destroyed while having limited damage output.
Sorry i see this is only limited to the vehicles in the book, only looking at those I agree with your assessment. The pdf really screwed up the vehicles.
Hard disagree.
Yeh im continuing on like the pdf doesnt exist, because theyre not real rules. Theyre an optional expansion imho.
@@Hearesy definitely. Have you had a look at the liber panoptica? It's a fan made pdf, almost exactly like the one GW made... but without alot of the suck. I'd love to see it get more love, as it makes alot of the "legends" models viable
Ive not, not really my thing - but sounds like a great project!
First! Sorry. Always wanted to write that.
*placeholder for constructive comment
Are you from Merseyside? You sound scouse-adjacent
Im 100% scouse with 20+ years of living abroad and working in london, enough to curtail my accident when speaking to non-scousers! Im way more scouse when im not on video, haha.
Calm down lad. Calm down 😂🤣
I don't understand why they took out Armoured Ceramite. Easy fix on the meltagun issue. Meltabombs always got past Armoured Ceramite. But GW's rule-writing, over the past 10 years or so, has been lacking and nonsensical at times.
I think armoured ceramite going is good for bookkeeping. And i dont think meltaguns are an issue - theyre so expensive and you have to deliver them! If you dont protect your tanks thats your fault. Granted this is a weakness dreads dont have, but not the end of the world i dont think.