As a mom who doesn’t get to play regularly, and can’t commit to a schedule, or has a hard time getting upgrades in the first place, doing the solo delves is a game changer. It’s much less stressful, being able to go in whenever I’ve got the time, and not having to worry about being able to keep up, or struggling to do my job as well as others. I used to avoid dungeons and raids unless absolutely necessary, but now I actually have fun.
I have been a CE (world 250-300 guild) raider and guildmaster/officer from 2005 to 2017. RL obligations mean I can not commit to a fixed time schedule since then, and m+ is hell in pugs this season. If Blizzard wants delves to be an alternate endgame content to raids&m+, they have to stop treating them like an inferior content/a stepping stone for the other two. Make them solo only (otherwise they are nigh impossible to balance), have them scale to really tough levels, and reward properly. Most importantly, make them fun but not pushovers.
The thing is the disparity between specs when solo. Like on my rogue I can skip a lot but once I have to deal with packs of three or four I get clobbered super hard. Meanwhile on warrior with plate you don'T care as much and on like a pet class you can completely ignore it. But I do agree that it should be solo only. Btw Zekvir had the same thing. On some classes it felt super hard and on some I oneshot it first try. Edit: Also on Guardian druid I finished all my +11s on like 590ish ilvl because tanks are busted as long as they can selfsustain. I can easily clear an 11 on a geared character now but early on things like guardian druids were just easy cheesy achievs.
I'm on board with this guy. This is the feature of this expansion, but already we're being given the "inferior method" vibe. Personally, I would cap grouping in Delves at Tier 8 (there are some players who just can't, I'm married to one). Tier 9 and above should go solo only. And tissues should be on hands for any pity parties that arrive along with a good solid difficulty, not delve nerfs.
Tuning content that is supposed to be "role agnostic" is a hard task to begin with. Tuning that "role agnostic" content for both solo and groups as well is even harder.
18, as you noted, is a slap in the face. As someone else said, 18 is the same as one M+ that can be farmed to cap. This is basically a punishment for solo players choosing not to also go back to M+ and its cess pool of toxicity. A better balance where the other content still feels like special snowflakes would be maybe 30 per week. That gives a crafted piece in two weeks and forces an early choice. Players still need to clear 11s and contrary to some perceptions in the other video they are far from easy mode.
if you're a solo player only doing delves why do you need the higher ilvl? content should have rewards proportional to the difficulty, a one armed person with a mental disability can do delves, why should delves give almost the same reward as something 10 times harder?
While i really do not experience much if any toxicity in M+ when pugging (EU) i also think people should never be forced into content by rewards related to powerlevel.
@@premiumfruits3528this is a stupid and very close minded way to think. Why does the game need to be rewarding to people who are above 620 items level basically? Blizzard said delves were an endgame pillar and are treating it like a minigame that rewards almost nothing. Why are you still trying to gatekeep prestige in a game as shameless as wow anyway, where everything you accomplish will just be overshadowed by a player afk in town who’s been playing since classic?
@@premiumfruits3528I farm +10s in m+ and raid mid mythic and I could care less if a solo player gets full mythic gear. You should do content you find fun because it’s fun the gear it drops shouldn’t be the “reward” for doing something you don’t enjoy.
@@alycynde5237 you should be punished for not doing group content in a group game. Then again it’s not punishment. You’re biased in calling it that. “I didn’t get what other people worked harder for” is not punishment
i hate it that tier 11 delves in season 1 were tuned for mythic raiders but they are meant to be for casual players, blizzard only tunes its game for top 1% of mythic raiders/high m+ score
Delves, particularly tier 11 are meant for solo - groups of 5. Why does that have to be synonymous with "casual?" I don't mind the idea of a solo player completing comparatively difficult content out of the reach of "casual" players that follows a similar reward structure to mythic+
top 1%? 25% of the playerbase running +10 keys and around 15% have atleast 4/8 in the mythic raid. The endgame was never as open as it is right now and you are still complaining. back in BFA when it capped at +15 for maximum reward we had less of 5% of the people doing +15 keys. i cant believe that there are still people complaining when the game is in its most casual spot it has ever been
@@SnackAttack127 no, it is meant to be for solo players, it has an option to be ran at 5man. I have a couple of friends that love single player experience in games and they really do not like grouping up with others as it's too much of a hassle to sit and queue and pray they invite you, plus they are casual players and they have only casual addons installed, immersion and stuff like that, they do not play with weak auras, rotation bots or details which other players do, so my friends are anxious ppl will criticize their performance in a content that is strictly made for solo players as solo experience
@@filecro6934 the point of what I wrote wasn't that they need to group. Delves allow them to run solo and that's good. But solo doesn't need to mean casual. I should be able to run solo content that is Difficult. I shouldn't be forced to group -- just like your friends shouldn't be forced to group -- just to run harder content. Delves should have tuning that allow for a casual solo experience AND for a more hardcore solo experience (though I do appreciate that i can group in delves if I want to. I like that it doesn't HAVE to be a solo experience because it means I can do something with 1 or 2 friends without having to queue....which is Exactly what you say you also don't want to do)
@@Max-9871 I think you've really missed the plot, wanna know why the percentage of players getting these things has gone up? Because the game have lost a LOT of players that keep being disrespected by the devs, why do you think the devs are making changes like this? They would only make these changes if they saw them selves bleeding players, but they are still thinking more of us hardcore raiders and M+'ers way more than them, 3 chests per week? Are you kidding me? Nobody wanna be forced to do M+ or even raiding, but they keep forcing players to do that content, but it's not okay to make us feel forced to do delves? It's disrespectful to a huge amount of people, so they will still see them selves lose players still and I'm not surprised... The game was meant to be for the casual players from the very beginning, back in 2004... They changed that cause of Bobby's vision for a future in E-Sports... So now the game's structure is all about E-Sport and they just can't stop needing for it to stay that way instead of just being the game millions of millions of players bought in to, and well, the estimated sub numbers speak for them selves.... I as a raider who want nothing to do with M+ and just wanted to raid at the highest difficulty are now going to quit too, cause I hate M+ with a passion and had hoped I could finally just get my gilded from content I actually enjoy instead of M+... I wanna play games for fun, tired of hating all the time I put in to wow other than when I step in to the raid.
Dumb limit, why do they hate the player so much. Let gilded drop in 8s and share the same seasonal cap as everyone else. Otherwise we still have that problem of people coming from devles to M+ for gilded, and bricking keys?!
Anything that helps me not feel like I need to do M+ to keep up in my heroic raid I am happy. Sure wish it was more then 18 but that is 18 more then I get now as I do not do M+.
I'm 618 on my main and still not gotten past tier 9 or beat Zekvir ?. So, putting the Gilded at tier 11 means I still won't be able to upgrade my gear to its full maximum. But you would think for Gilded chests, then maybe they bump it to at least 4 sets of 6 since you can only get 4 keys a week. People who can grind tier 11s are people who generally probably already run high mythic + dungeons anyways.
Well, the problem seems to be that ppl find no m+ groups, are scared of depleted keys, find m+ toxic...etc - so...yeah...18 gilded are a bit underwhelming for a week of t11 delves....but there needs to be some kind of balance. I can see Blizzard raising the amount - and implementing a trade up, maybe? 45 runed for 15 gilded at a certain gear level.
@@forel121 can confirm, tried for Immortal Spelunker title with a 620 Ret, oh boy. All the small trash has 12M+ HP and all the big boys have 45M, while easily hitting 2-3M unavoidable damage, not to mention the interruptable fireballs, that will be shot after 5sec anyways and your best case 15sec cd kick won't really help you. Not gonna lie, Zekvir was easier, than trying to one by one taunting mobs on T11. Also, you only have 3 lives, not 5 like on T8. Sure, you can restart it, but you can also just restart an M+, since they won't deplete up to 12 in S2.
It’s not like delve only players will be able to take on tier 11s early on. Compared to right now, tier 10 is 623, a level delve only players can’t reach until they get all hero track gear along with the harbinger of the runed. It will take weeks to months just to be able to do tier 11s. This isn’t really an update for the delve only players. It’s for the players that do M+ on the daily who would rather do a delve than wait half an hour for a pug when they only need a few more gilded crests.
18 is really low. I was hoping for 45. It should be 30 minimum. ALSO, MAKE DELVES SOLO ONLY! I had this opinion since TWW day1 and after having 9 chars (soon to be 1 of each class/min 13 chars) purely played in solo delves, I am even more convinced that it is the best for delves and community.
I'm not sure if they've changed it, but they are effectively solo only. I can solo t8 without any problems as healer, but in a t6 group the tank was very difficult to keep Alive and I (who normally tanks solo t8) was getting one shot by trash
@johnj4471 oh I gotcha, I've never tried with anything but that 3 man group that was an absolute disaster lol it just blew my mind that we could all solo 8s but the 3 of us got creamed on a 6
Please no. Please god no. My wife and I play delves because its the only high end content we can do together without needing to drag other people into it. Delves strongest feature is thhat they are adaptable based off the type of player you are - do you want solo? Great. Do you want 1-2 other friends with you? Great. Do you want a full party? Still great.
Yes, finally we can get top level gear for solo play. I am fine with it taking longer. Raids and M+ should be a "faster" track to the highest tier of gear, but that should not be the ONLY track. Happy Winter Veil to us, :-) So excited!!! See you in Azeroth!
this nonsense of limiting us ONE upgrade per week is straight ass though. M+ Players are gonna continue to do M+ over Delves because Delves will be slower, there's no need to cap us anymore than M+ Players are capped.
Depends on if gilded catchups are a thing. If they are, a so called "average" skilled player won't clear 11s for a few weeks and by the time they can, their gilded limit will be that much higher. Mentally there'd be much less stress on that person to race for 11s knowing the gilded is building up and waiting for them. Later on caps are lifted and so is the delve cap, and it's no sweat.
@@SoulSoBreezy Very true, and some may not do the 11s as they will be difficult and may just stick it out with 8s but time will tell. I am drinking my cup-o-hopium.
Think the issue is still going to come down to what delves are supposed to be. Theres no reason (in my opinion) that "solo" needs to equal "casual" but people freaked out in the first week of TWW when they werent able to clear tier 8 and Blizz gutted the difficulty. If you have *challenging* solo content that isnt built for you to blast through on week 1 (for exmple, most people arent shocked and screaming when they cant do a +8 on week 1 of a season), then it can and should have a similar reward structure to other challenging content. I should be able to be a casual raider or a more hardcore raider. I should be able to be a casual m+ player or a more hardcore m+ player. I should be able to be a casual delve player or a more hardcore delve player (delver? spelunker?).
agreed, it's still horseshit either way, because those of us Delving are going for Crafted Pieces, we cant in all likelihood get full Tier via the Vault, and if we could it would STILL be Hero Rank, not Myth.
I guess BLizzard couldnt do it differently cause especially M+ Players would have cried their eyes out how unfair it is and Delve players dont need any Crests at all. 18 is an insult but you have to cater to your fragile M+ Community while its on the decline.
@@galencox1531 only fragile ones are the ones crying right now that have been crying. It’s funny when you cry it’s “a valid point” but anyone else it’s fragile.
I raid. My guild gets Ahead of the Curve every tier. In The War Within I switched classes (from Prot Paladin --> Prot Warrior) and tried M+ for the first ever time. I’ll only run guild groups and we don’t have a regular M+ time slot like we do for raids, so I will go weeks in between runs. Currently sitting at about 2.2k score. Why did I say all this? Because I feel like the argument for “cap of 18” is to somehow ‘pacify’ players that raid/M+ and that feels like absolute nonsense to me. I raid because I want to. I took the Amirdrassil tier off because I was burned out. A new class reinvigorated my fun hence trying M+ for the first time ever. I never did M+ before, gearing up exclusively in raids, and usually that meant I had one of the lowest ilevels on my raid team. I’m enough of a veteran to remember when everyone geared up within the raid, when we didn’t need hero level gear before we could start progressing on heroic level raids (I feel like they tune for higher gear now but I digress). Anyway I didn’t want to M+ so I didn’t. My point being the game is a giant hamster wheel. I say that rather than using a buffet analogy because it is a circular system. We get gear/crests from content but that also enables us to do the content. We clear faster/progress to higher difficulties etc. I have never understood why people say (like the example at hand) “oh delves are easier, why would anyone M+?” - maybe because people ENJOY M+? And if they don’t enjoy M+ then why do it? Sure there are difficulty humps and being able to ‘overpower’ by getting gear/crests from somewhere else can help, but that can be a short-term solution to a short-term problem. Now before anyone calls me naive I realise the social pressure. The need to optimise which pushes people to do content that makes them miserable. I feel very sad for them. I think people should just play however makes them happy. But let’s face it if somebody is optimising in this way, they are going to do it regardless of how much is available simply because it is there. I’m not really going to address the “superiority” argument because I don’t agree with it. What someone else does/has doesn’t affect me. This whole notion of ‘superiority’ is only reinforced with the feeling of ‘second class citizens’ that a cap such as 18 crests promotes. TLDR: I think people should play the content they enjoy. Open up gearing, open up crests. There is a seasonal cap. I really don’t feel like there should be a delve specific cap at all but 18? That’s just mean. NO delve specific cap. That’s what I think. I mean I started the season running 8x delves every week to max vault. I did that for like a month on my main and then I didn’t need to anymore. I did it sometimes on an alt but truthfully I didn’t have time. For someone that just does delves? Let them play! Equality. Fun for everyone.
If rewards aren't going to be proportional to the difficulty of the content, then the entire reward system is pointless and should be removed altogether. Everyone should be given a generic set of gear based on their class that just gets a little stronger every week automatically. Then at that point you might as well just remove gear and stats and rpg elements altogether and have everything be a baseline amount so everything can be perfectly balanced and fine tuned. Follow your argument to its logical conclusion and you'll see how dumb it is.
@ Actually no I think that would be fine. The only reason I don’t advocate getting rid of gear altogether is because being able to “outgear” content to get over tricky hurdles is helpful. With your described scenario where the power gets stronger each week, that possibility remains. Bleeding edge folks could tackle their chosen content when power levels were low. Folks who need a little help can progress slower and manage higher difficulties as the season progresses. Sounds good to me! The date on achievements can still function to have folks show off if they really feel the need. I don’t really get the notion of only doing the content ‘for the reward’. Isn’t actually getting to play the content the point? I mean the game is what we spend our time in game doing right? In terms of classic ‘endgame’ we raid, we M+, we delve. Yeah we get gear and that makes future runs easier/higher level/faster etc. But we are still doing the same content. There’s no magical “you have maxed your gear here’s a brand new game mode to play” - it’s all the same stuff. What we play for rewards, is just what we play because we enjoy it. The gear ‘treadmill’ exists to do exactly as you described with the power increases, it functions like a soft nerf. Having that power in the players hands gives players slightly more control over the timing of when they get the soft nerfs, but blizz through stuff like caps! still holds the reins. They decide how quickly we get stronger. Let me put this another way. My motivation for raiding is Ahead of the Curve/Glory. Once I have got that I’m done for the raiding season unless my guild needs extra runs for folks who missed out, in which case of course I will keep going for them. The gear ‘reward’ is a nice side benefit but I would certainly never raid just for the gear. Transmog maybe because I can keep that, but gear gets reset every season. My favourite alt (Demon Hunter) only has delves. I don’t raid or M+ on the alt. I like delves because I get to use my toolkit. Just like I get the achievement for my investment in raiding, or there’s the KSM mount or title as a reward for M+. Delves has Zek’thir as an ultimate challenge mode. The gear we get along the way helps us rise to the zenith of our chosen content. If we didn’t have power from the gear, it wouldn’t change anything about the content. I really like soloing old raids. Power increases helps with that, just like it helps with Zek’thir or Ahead of the Curve. Increasing in power is helpful to enjoy the content. That power being connected to gear isn’t as necessary.
@@galactic-pirates47 It's ok that you don't play for the gear or getting higher numbers, but it's foolish to think that you're in the majority. The entire point of the genre is to have a character that gets stronger over time. Regardless of how you feel or what you prioritize or what you most enjoy, that is objectively the point of an mmo. If you take away higher rewards for people doing higher difficulty content, that's the first step down a slippery slope of stripping everything away from the game that makes it what it is at its core. At that point you might as well just get rid of stats and rpg elements altogether and just make it a multiplayer action game.
@@premiumfruits3528First off I appreciate how calm you have made your point. It’s been a good debate, thank you. Anyway I just wanted to say I never meant to imply my opinion spoke for anyone other than myself. I probably am not in a majority, I might be in a minority of one. Soul asked for opinions and so I gave him mine. I tried to be clear and establish my perspective as context, but that’s all. So yes I do realise playing for achievements/collectibles/simply because I enjoy the class etc. isn’t true for everyone. In fact I do very much agree with your point about rewards being necessary for time spent. I don’t like doing content if I get nothing for it. Where we differ is I don’t see gear as the only valid reward. That’s ok. Life would be boring if we were all the same :) Anyway thanks again. Always nice when folks can be civil on the internet ❤
Even just 2 per delve with no cap would be a lifechanger. Not sure why there need to be a spesific cap from Delves, let is farm it like M+ people do. Maybe they need to limit crest from M+ to 20 per week to keep it fair...
Still really feels like M+ players refuse to just accept that theyre usually the ones ruining it for people. Toxic Elitists players ruin modes regardless of how well or terribly theyre setup. And once you go above tier 8, Delves start throwing in some bs mechanics that some classes an specs have an insanely hard time dealing with them. Want more M+ players and raiders? Then fix the toxic player base and try to be a lil more patient with ppl trying them. 😅
Not Blizzards job to fix toxic players. That is a problem with those players personality. It should fix itself in game. If the numbers show that delves are overtaking m+ in popularity, Blizzard will add better rewards to them. That is not saying that m+ should be removed or such - for everyone screaming how toxic m+ is - we still need to consider that the person screaming might be toxic or a Karen or just a bad player themselves that wants things handed to them. Also there are probably lots of m+ runs that work out great, that are done in guild groups, with friends, where people organize the runs socially - and you do not want to punish those by saying: Rather go solo....
Toxic happens in every game. Usually people who make these comments try to jump in and expect to finish it not knowing any mechanics or basics for the dungeon. They are above a 6 minute video on TH-cam and think the players with them should spend 40 minutes trying to carry them through so they can avoid any responsibility for them knowing anything about the content they are jumping into.
The reward should be based on the effort neccessary to get them. The issue with Delves is that there's only one factor that defines how difficult the content is: What class/spec you play. If Tank-Brann fixes this, that's cool. But as long as a T11 is freeloot for Tanks and impossible for most cloth-DPS or healers, fixing any rewards-structure for this type of content misses the point. Fix balancing for all classes. Set the difficulty to where you want it. Give rewards according to the difficulty. Done.
My question would be, will the Great Vault rewards be upgraded in some way as well? If that is the case, then it won't be so bad. Since returning to the game last year, I have done almost only delves. I run a lot of alts and have several up to iLvl 615+, through a combination of GV and bountiful rewards. Until now I've never done a 9+ tier delve because, from what I've been told by the Internet, they offered nothing over T8; except bragging rights, about which I don't care. I think I currently have a bunch of gilded scattered over something like 15 characters, with maybe 9-10 on any one, at most. So, they drop occasionally from lower stuff. Getting 6 per, which would be 1 upgrade for 1 piece of gear for running 3 T11s seems a bit low to me. Not sure it would be worth it. Maybe on a warlock, for whom these things are a bit easier, but certainly not a mage, for whom it is a much bigger chore, mostly for the end-boss fights.
@@UltimateGamerCC I would not expect that. The wailing and gnashing of teeth from the RAID/M+ community would drown out the mating calls of gorlocks. But what WOULD be nice, and I think not unfair, would be to have some sort of token system, where instead of a piece of gear you could get gilded crests.
No datamined info on myth gear off the delve row, but I doubt it'll be a thing. I know people want blizzard to not care what m+ and raid people thing but like it or not they want to appeal to all audiences. Myth track gear from delves would disrupt gearing across the board and would challenge mid level raiders to progress into mythic. Just like how "elitists" tell delve people to get good and get into keys and raids, it's sort of like delve people telling these players in the middle/high skill band to get into mythics and high keys which is...odd
@@SoulSoBreezy I don't want them to not care about Raid and M+ people think. I just want to feel like the care, even a little bit, about my thoughts. And I never said any myth gear on the delve row. More specifically, I would like to have a way to upgrade my hero gear past level 4, so a source of gilded crests from the vault track, to supplement what you get from higher tier delves. It doesn't have to be a competition. Raid and M+ people can have the better gear. Hell, give them 100 more iLvl than me. Let them walk among us like gods. I could care less. I just want to feel like I am making some progress, which I kind of don't anymore. The rewards that matter come less and less often as you approach the effective max, and one upgrade to one slot per week would not be enough to motivate me to do much grinding out of content I've done dozens of times. I have so many alts because the only way I can keep interested is by doing it on characters that play differently.
I know I'd be weirded out if crests came from the vault outside of tokens of merit. It's basically waiting for those upgrade tokens AND getting a possible gear upgrade that kinda messes with my head in a confusing way.
Well, to me, it's hard to imagine that solo players...that is the kind of players who always solo (as opposed to M+ and raid players who are soloing at the moment) will ever reach 11 at all. That's fine, of course. I just mention this to remind everyone that there are different types of solo play out there and to not group it all together in one's thinking.
I am a solo player. I have cleared Tier 11. It is more challenging than an 8 of course but by no means impossible. The assumption here is that someone is a solo player because they are incapable of doing M+ or raids. This is incorrect. I used to raid with a guild but for a variety of reasons I don't want to commit to that now. As for M+ I have done it from time to time but do not enjoy it. Delves are exactly what I enjoy. Reply
I did a +11 delve this morning for curiosity and on my VDH 116ilvl, it definitely was a challenge. Definitely feels like an end game pillar to me. It would be nice if they could go up to 15s fur a bigger challenge and potentially more cress?
Season 1 I do renown to cap and run Delves, then do the campaign. Season 2 is when I start my M+ journey. Delves have been a breath of fresh air, had to rig a defensive warrior to complete a level 9 Delve successfully. My ilvl 615 priest got spanked in level 9s.
Maybe people will call me a symp, but as a previous outdoor-only player that accepted only really getting Veteran and the occasional Champion piece, I'm honestly pretty happy that I even have a chance at the mythic tier set appearances this time around, heroic is already cool af. I absolutely get the argument that it's unnecessary to reduce delve rewards, but I also worry about the tradeoff of the system - at present it's pretty accessible for anyone to get heroic appearances and gear, I would hate to see it get harder just so they can justify giving out mythic stuff. Not everyone needs to get every type of gear.
You shouldn't let Blizzard get away with this treatment of players, there's really no reason for any of this other than. "We love raiders and M+ players way more than any of you, go be forced to do that as well... While we do our very best not to force them to do this!" It's just dumb on so many levels and extremely disrespectful.. I've always hated their treatment of you guys... I do mythic raiding btw, so I'm saying this as a person who should be one of those gate keeping gear and upgrades from you... Do not accept it, it's just disrespectful. Also as a high end raider, I hate M+, for years they've been forcing us to spam dungeons everyday all day to "Keep up"... Just let people play the way they want... I had hoped that I finally could never ever touch another M+ dungeon again... But now, so I think I might finally actually just quit wow, go to other games that respects me and my time... I love raiding, but not enough to do another season of the shittiest content there is in the game, it's not fun to me and I'm not about to let Blizzard force me to play the game "Their" way and just not have any fun at all... I refuse to keep being treated this way yet again....
As a returning player who has no way of getting raiding or M+ gear yet, there is a wall at T10, a steep incoming damage increase, especially from caster mobs. Nothing fancy, it just requires more stamina than any gear from delves or other sources can comfortably handle from a month of play. One weekly 616 item from the Vault, provided all unique "drops", puts it to 18 weeks or 4.5 months to get full Hero gear. 18 weeks is 144 bountiful delves at minimum. That's a lot of delves to clear. I don't need higher ilvl, I'd just like to have more stamina. In that regard, the new ring is a godsend.
what you need is to play smarter, use cover to screw the casters over and/or take them down first. use CC to incapacitate any mobs that you can. this is what allowed us to easily do 8s in S1, the same can apply to 11s, just not easily. for me, the 18 Crest cap for Delvers is just stupid as all hell.
I thought 30 sounded like a decent number. Couple step upgrades a week or save 2 weeks to make a crafted piece. I do a little bit of everything on my main. I honestly didn't see 30 as a "I now have to do delves". Assume going in to S2, with S1 gear, reliance on delve gear will be less for my main. Based on how 11's feel now, and if you get 6 gilded per, I wouldn't see delves being more efficient. Id stick with + on my main. For my alts sake, I hope they increase it.
Doing solo content to get BiS, highest ilvl gear has always been apart of WoW. Even allll the way back in Classic. I killed elementals to craft my epic chest piece on my mage, and I soloed (solo was required) demons for my epic bow on hunter. You didn't need these items to clear the highest content, but people wanted/grinded for it. Soooooooooooo, why are sweaties worried about solo players getting high level gear? IDK. I'd bet my left testicle that over half the people who do a +10 each week pay for it with gold. Gold they buy with IRL money (that's their business and it doesn't affect me). And I hate to break it to the M+'ers and raiders, +8s and herioc raids to get Guilded aren't hard either. Stop patting yourself on the back. IF you don't wanna play delves, don't. And don't worry about other people playing them either. And Blizz, just make things fun for the people that do the content. People that complain that Blizz doesn't "respect my time" or "feel forced to play X" are grown adults and need take responsibility for their own time, and those people need to quit worrying about other peoples' time. This is a game, not slavery. No one is forcing you to devote your time to things you don't enjoy.
I've been a delve enjoyer on my alts, while my main does M+ and some mythic raid. Delves have been a great way to get a couple vault slots, but have not been a good source of crests. While I think the 6 crests given at the end is fair (a mythic boss only gives 10) the cap of 3 chests a week does seem a bit low (total 18 crests), especially with an M+ run giving up to 20. However, I don't think that delves should end up as the go to way to farm guilded crests, and if that means the balancing towards delve rewards seems low, so be it.
Lately I'm getting the feeling, that the game is not following any path of progresssion. More like little bits of this and that are added, but somehow doesn't affect the core (which engulfed in many additional entities becomes empty). And only the constant changes drives people playing, cause „hope”.
I'm not convinced theres a large enough swath of players for this to merit the change (meanging those who would TRULY enjoy doing tier 11s for a handful of gilded). What I do think will happen is this will attract those who "feel forced" to do it and complain on forums the entire time. That juice dont feel worth the squeeze, but I guess we will see. Hopefully they can find the right balance of rewards to satisfy the first group I mentioned without enslaving the second.
It was obvious they weren't going to give much by the pitiful amount of Runed Crests we get from chests in season 1. They are stingy. People wanting 30 to 90 was a pipedream. I'm actually surprised it is more than 12
I don't want raiding to ever feel like it is not a special form of content and should be rewarded as such. I also love delves and the idea of ANY player getting decently geared and enjoying skill based challenges. The best solution in my mind is to find a bridge from delving to raiding and M+ that is rewarding and engaging.
The delvers are not as big as a problem for mythic plus as some make it out to be. This issue is related to, since Vanilla, people have been jumping into content they should never have been doing. Happened before delves and will continue
Blizzard, as usual, is being conservative with crest allocation in game content. I don't think they should be overly concerned about being potentially too generous with crests since they already impose a weekly crest cap as a stop-gap measure anyways. Delves are evolving from season to season which is a good thing in my opinion.
I have a feeling iteration will continue as the seasons go by. For now at least it's plain to see if there was a path to the same item level, two paths involve group play and one is solo, it's almost a non choice what gamers will do.
Definitely. Solo players in this thread are telling m+/raid people they shouldn't care what rewards they get, but their primary critique is based on them being angry over what rewards the m+/raid people get. It's kind of natural these days to distrust the devs are rewarding players fairly but to me at least it's clear there's that intent to be as fair and non-disruptive as they can.
Soul, I think Blizzard made it cap to 18 for Tier 11 Delves BEFORE they decided to super buff Mythic+ gilded crest drops. We have to remember it's only datamined information. I think Delve players will receive a bit more when 11.1 actually drops
They should just give you 500 gilded crests for subscribing. Seriously, how much easier do people want this game to be? I hear there are some tap style tablet games out that might be more what some are looking for.
Idc about crests or delves as much as long as they fix m+ tuning and make it more pug friendly, if they wanna give delves a higher crest drop cool good for the delve players. While delves probably did give too high gear for only doing a t8 being champion track for end of run and hero for vault for it being that easy. The mob tuning was way off in m+, tank changes(durability change) made a lot of tanks unfun and unfriendly causing an insane decline in tank player base, a lot of mobs in every dungeon with tank busters for nearly every pack, healing checks and overall healing requirement (ping pong hp bars) plus needing cleanses i.e curses and poisons (damage was way too high per tick). I'd rather these changes be addressed than crests, you can always tweak/buff crest drops but balancing all these changes for a pillar game mode are more important to the health of the overall game.
This is all datamined, not confirmed though. We don't really know if what was datamined is actually true. As you keep saying, we should wait for PTR to see the actual values, and submit the feedback from it.
a lot of people saying 18 is too little, and that a single M+ can give you 18. An 11 completed in time gives 18 gilded. Fewer than 5% of the population do 11's. 3 delves x 4 weeks...gives you bis crafted item. That's more than fair, and they don't want to kill M+. I'd be in favor of increasing it slightly. maybe 20 per week, giving you 3 weeks to be able to craft max item. But delves are easier and faster than M+ 8-12's. I think as such, it needs to reward a touch less.
people don't do them because the gear prog stops at 8, the whole point is we dont want to do mplus to be able to even do an 11 and we want to be able to prog at a half decent rate like every other end game player. (in the less than 5% here btw)
Okay, then one and a half +8, which is still done in 45 mins, while you'd be tryharding pulling mobs one-by-one on T11 because it's definitely overtuned even at 620 ilvl, only to get 2 crests at the end. People who say delves are easy have most probably never tried T11 ever, or did it in 630+ gear.
Delves are like dungeons, the lower tier delves is like follow/lfg dungeons. T8 is around heroic dungeons. Cant say for sure about the higher tiers, got my ass handed to me in T9 but timed the +4 i tried...
I only gear up these days from delves. I dont do dungeons or raids anymore. I've gotten 1 map on my pally, 2 on my lock and 2 between my two hunters. The droprate is atrocious.
lol okay stop acting like we're being oppressed or something, napkin math tells me gearing will be incredibly fast and accessible compared to S1 (but still depends on if there'll be gilded chest catchups)
Don’t understand why people keeps complaining every single season and yet keeps playing the game. Blizzards is not stupid they know what they’re doing to keep you guys the cattle happy.
They can, but imagine stating up mid season and having to wait for and find a full group who are looking to get past those pesky level gates so you can finally start "playing thr game." The idea has merit but there're wishy washy feelings over how much players want blizzard to control their behavior.
@@SoulSoBreezy Understandable, could this perhaps a issue with individual ability verse personal expectation? This is a cross over system issue that doesn't appear to have set any sort of expectation for the player or group to measure their ability against their expecatation. Without a standardized way to measure against, everyone starts at different spots. I can understand wanting to do what you want and yet that shouldn't prevent you from having to provide some sort of result you are ready for something different and/or harder. Gotta have the gear or do the mechanics to kill the monster afterall. How they go about that would be fun to discuss. Appreciate ya Soul.
no matter how many crests they drop, first they have to make sure t11 delves are actually fun. right now it´s the worst slog on the planet. Also just give Delvers as many Crests as everyone else, let people play the content they actually want to play.
@@UltimateGamerCC y, unfortunately their priority seems to be some "appropriate rewards" instead of making a fun game. Fortunately the game is still fun most of the time, but i think they screw themselves and us so much with that nonsense philosophy.
The opinion of players who do raids and/or m+ as their main WoW activity really does not matter. Not to disrespect or hate on them, but their comparison of reward vs effort doesn't make sense. Delves are open to them too, and WoW is not a job where you get paid for your effort/performance. It is a game that is meant to be played for fun/entertainment. Bottomline: 18 crests/week is NOT FUN!
Yeah but you get more rewarded for more the time you put in, and people wanna see progress. And to do m+/raid you need gear and score. And you don't get that from being lazy and just play now and then. You have to commit if you actually wanna play the end game.
Tell me why do you feel the need to get mythic level gear if you just do delves? The point of mythic gear is so you’re able to do higher and higher MYTHIC content. You can do delves just fine in lower lvl gear..
This isn’t great for unlocking the max level crafts, but good enough to unlock one mythic appearance a week when you upgrade a heroic item in the vault.
I only run delves and it does sound really low. I haven't been able to run tier 11 delves in season 1 yet so I suppose this also doesn't really apply to me since I'm not that far along. I think it should be higher and delve only players should be ale to get more gear more easily since that is a track for that player base. Then again, I also think blizzard should get rid of keys altogether also and simply allow players to open 4 chests per day as a daily cap.
not even remotely, but they arent pigeon-holding us any less than usual, all to keep the M+ crowd feeling special, even when they hate M+ atm. as usual Blizzard PROACTIVELY sends the Fun Police, while ignoring the issue that M+ sucks ass at current.
They said "endgame for all" not "timely endgame progression for all". Game devs are usually stingy, I see it all the time. Especially for non-raid content. Thumbs up for great videos.
@@Jenkyllllls the game should be about playing the content. Not this classist mini game of separating who's better or who's worse by determining who spends more time beating their head against a screen doing m+. Always been wow's problem. The top 1% of sweaters want to feel like they lord over everyone and blizz has designed the game around them and it's suffered over the years because of this.
@@jaypoopycatsah yes sling insults when you have no argument. You don’t need mythic gear if you’re not doing mythic content. It’s not classist. Get out of here and get better.
@@jaypoopycatsI have fully upgraded by gear to hero 6/6 without ever doing “mythic” content and I’m definitely not sweaty. How much easier do you want the game to be?
If you make delves give remotely close to the amount of gilded crest a m+ run does then m+ sweats will complain until blizzard nerfs delves. Remember they don’t even want you to get heroic gear from delves once a week. And historically blizzard caters to the hardcore sweats with the podcasts.
I agreed with the critique that having 10+ keys at the start of S1 made early gearing heavily favor delves. If we can't get delve keys until the start of the season that'd mean we'd have 4 to start with (so 4 champ pieces) which I think is much more reasonable
@ tbh i wasn’t even making commentary on what should or shouldn’t happen. I was just saying that if blizzard doesn’t tread the line and makes delves better than m+ then a lot of sweaty nerds are gonna be mad. Personally even though I might be technically a sweat, l still think casuals are the lifeblood of the game and I wouldn’t get nearly as good raids and m+ without them both financially supporting the game but also the in game consumables economy. So if them eventually getting good gear is the worst thing that happens to me then I’m here for it.
I don't get Blizzard's obsession with trying to force everyone into m+. Let people play the type of content they want, and let them get rewarded for that content. If a person wants to raid all week, they should be allowed to. If a person wants to m+ all week, they should be allowed to. And if a person wants to delve all week, they should be allowed to. (I also feel like we need another form of progression dungeon content to run alongside m+ that is focused on dungeons designed to be taken with crowd control and without a timer since not everyone likes rush dungeon content... but... I dunno if that discussion is something the community as a whole is ready for)
Actually what I don't get is why people think Blizzard is trying to "force" people into m+. It's the presumption that attaining max myth track gear is the only way to feel good in the game and that's demonstrably untrue. I get some people see getting BiS each season as a goal, 100% fine. But not everyone feels that way and that reflects in how Blizzard offers all these different options people can choose to be their endgame, or not. I can only use myself as an example but I haven't done keys at all and got AOTC just fine, I'll finally start doing keys soon to get the KSM mount and that's it. One would consider my standards to be low but to me, I'm setting goals I find attainable, and hitting them alongside friends. Also what you describe as a dungeon with CC, that is in fact delves depending on difficulty and class makeup.
@@SoulSoBreezy Blizzard has designed the game such that Mythic+ becomes the default fallback content for everyone. Because it is the only content that provides progression to the top tiers in a repeatable manner. Hence EVERY player who wants to achieve gear progression into the end game eventually has to do m+. Once you've done your raids for the week, if you want to keep playing... what can you do? More M+. If you've gotten your delve cap for the week, what can you do? M+. It is pretty clear that, in the current state of the game, Blizzard sees M+ as 'the content' that every gear-minded player should be doing, and I don't think that's long-term healthy for the game.
It's statements like that make me think yeah, people're tripping over themselves or letting themselve be gaslit into thinking as you say, "EVERY player who wants to achieve gear progression into the end game eventually has to do m+." Not everyone is going at the same pace and especially solo players, they've got no one to compete with but themselves. It's super easy for us to argue the principles but in practice I imagine most* solo players are going to spend their time doing 11s if they can, but focus more on capping Runed to max the hero gear they'll be getting. Whether the gilded chest is given the season treatment is a BIG deal, that's why it was my first question. If it is given the season treatment, cool. It's a MUCH less stressful race towards the gildeds that're just waiting for em. And as said throughout this thread, 11s are gonna be tough for a lot of people. It's presumptuous to assume most* people will be slamming into the delve gilded cap week 1.
What a joke! I understand M+ players are going to complain about how delves are easier and those players should not be getting gilded but that has nothing to do with it. It's all about the amount of time a person plays and enjoys what they are playing. Mythic+ players will get capped each week by doing the content they like to do while delve players will receive scraps for doing the content they like. This just seems wrong to punish a player from getting what they deserve for spending the time playing the game the way they want to play.
I am cleaning 11s on my 610 prot pally Brain on dps. Shammy, I can't get past 8. Higher geared. Dis priest 9 higher geared. BTW bran never dies, try it.
That's the real issue here. Difficult content should reward high quality loot. But how difficult a delve is depends 100% on your class/spec. On my Blood DK I tear an 11 Delve to shreds in under 10 Minutes and would feel like cheating, if I got the same amount of crests as I did for a M+ run. On my Shadow Priest I honestly haven't even attempted anything above 8, even though I can clear those without much hassle at this point. I still expect an 11 on the Shadow to be a serious piece of work and would probably rather run a M+8.
If people can do anything in their city with a bicycle or a small car, why do they need an SUV? Hint: You don't "need" it. Just like 2 people living together don't "need" a big house if they don't have children etc etc. I like to see my ilv go up and maybe I am a shit player who needs a higher ilv to overcome the next delve challenge. In short: Don't tell people how to live their lives or enjoy the game. I can only ride one mount...I have 10 favorites...why do I need 500? I still have over 500...and will get next..and the next..and the next. Same with toys. And pets
18 a week is unacceptably low. Let us farm crests uncapped from all content like the degenerates we are. We want to feel like we are progressing. We want to feel like we are beating the game. These endless farms for currency are rough for us average players because we have to spend hours every week doing them. Maybe this week I want to be a degenerate and take a week off after that then come back and do it again. These weekly caps make all that feel bad man.
Sometimes works out. I have a feeling in practice people'll be busy in the early weeks making sure they farm up as much Runed as they can (assuming the higher income) and building themselves up. Without knowing the difficulty it's presumptuous to talk like we'll be slamming the cap every week starting week 1.
If blizzard keeps putting up walls after wall after wall the players will get sick and tired of it and quit..maybe there trying to kill there own game. More complaints.. getting louder and louder.. like taking away pets from mm hunters whats up with that??..
So I believe 18 Gilded a week is way better than I thought it would be. Especially if I can also get like 30 runed from those same runs, thats a fair amount. You are aslo making a bad assumption. If Season 2 delves of 11 are equal to the same as Season 1 8s or even 9s, you can be ready for those in a couple of weeks. I think 18 a week is fine if I can trade into another 30 in delves. I dont mind it.
Blizz just stop seperating gear progression from M+ and delves. Give the same amount of crests/ilvl gear to the delvers 0 reason to seperate them when they are just as easy. And yes a +8 is as easy as a +11 delve. Because it is all fun and friend time. The real skill comes after +8 where it goes from fun with friends to skill heavy dammage. Tactical pulls etc. So no reason to seperate when it is the same dificulity. Dont have to lissen to those who dont want to share their loot cause they are likely boosters who benefit from people wanting gear. So they are butthurt about losin clients. Giving good gear to delvers aswell as M+ runners also lowers reason to buy boost for raids because people can more easily jump into raids as better geared and get their curve if they study the bosses.
Well, you were right. But this also means that you simply do delves in the first 2 weeks for the heroic loot in vault. After that, they become irrelevant for most people just like now
Based on the current proposed changes and my recent experiences I won’t be doing Delves anymore. I’m really curious how the raid renown track will work. If I’m correct, doing the raid once per week on one character will give my whole warband the ability to buy two raid items. They will be low level, but can be upgraded to max ilvl. If this is the case I will be raiding. I have been trying out your suggestion to use communities to do M+. This works so much better. I’m having fun again with M+. So I’ll probably keep doing that. Delves will be me backup choice for when there aren’t any M+ groups up and for specs I don’t like to play in a group setting.
Id rather have changes to crafting done so you can only equip like 3 crafted items at the same time so that wont be abused as much. Since I want the solo grind mostly to upgrade the annoying stuff while watching a movie or binging a series on the side.
I like delver but still haven't really tried using it lol I notice in this conversation people talk about casual versus elitist/hardcore, but I think this is a much more black and white comparison, solo versus group play and rewards. It's much easier to make comparisons from that perspective.
Do +11's for fun/challenge I suppose? As much as it would be nice to max out hero gear as a solo/co-op player, LFR/weekly world gear in Season 3 will replace it anyway...it's not like I "need" it if I can actually do +11's to get the gilded crests in the first place. I don't particularly like or agree with a cap, but I don't find it a big deal. Let's start a daily reminder to remove the max cap on Valorstones...oh, and let's hope we get some different non-trash tier delve trinkets.
I expect at least 3 upgrades with gilded crests in (2 * 27 = 54 (45)) weeks and not 4 in 3 weeks likes it is now. (3 * 18 =54 (45)) and then i am very very very modest.
I can’t believe I am still up, but 18 is fine for me. Also never understood the “feels obligated to do” you could say that about any track that has gilded. Hey devs hope you had a good holiday!
If they're giving players that many crests for doing what is literally the easiest end game content available, then keys and raid bosses need to give WAY more than they do now. This won't end well.
I don’t agree, the number of guilded crests is so small and they only drop from 3 11’s per week, which is still very gated and will have no impact on M+ or Raid. Why would a solo player very slowly getting guilded crest impact anything else….. it just provides a growth path that did not exist for solo players before.
@@cmdr7974 it has nothing to do with solo players getting crests, it's a high enough number, when you factor in the numbers for keys and raid boss kills, that raiders will feel like they're forced to also do delves to supplement their progression solo players always think when raiders are against stuff like this, it's because we don't want them to have the stuff we have, when that couldn't be further from the truth, the truth is we don't give a shit about solo players and what they do or what they have, we spend literally zero seconds thinking about them, the real reason is because we don't want to do your content, because we don't like it, because it's shitty and boring me and most everyone who does the content I do wouldn't give a single fuck if solo players were given 100 crests per delve with no cap, as long as we got enough from OUR content that we didn't feel like we had to also do yours
As a mom who doesn’t get to play regularly, and can’t commit to a schedule, or has a hard time getting upgrades in the first place, doing the solo delves is a game changer. It’s much less stressful, being able to go in whenever I’ve got the time, and not having to worry about being able to keep up, or struggling to do my job as well as others. I used to avoid dungeons and raids unless absolutely necessary, but now I actually have fun.
I have been a CE (world 250-300 guild) raider and guildmaster/officer from 2005 to 2017. RL obligations mean I can not commit to a fixed time schedule since then, and m+ is hell in pugs this season.
If Blizzard wants delves to be an alternate endgame content to raids&m+, they have to stop treating them like an inferior content/a stepping stone for the other two.
Make them solo only (otherwise they are nigh impossible to balance), have them scale to really tough levels, and reward properly. Most importantly, make them fun but not pushovers.
The thing is the disparity between specs when solo. Like on my rogue I can skip a lot but once I have to deal with packs of three or four I get clobbered super hard. Meanwhile on warrior with plate you don'T care as much and on like a pet class you can completely ignore it. But I do agree that it should be solo only.
Btw Zekvir had the same thing. On some classes it felt super hard and on some I oneshot it first try.
Edit: Also on Guardian druid I finished all my +11s on like 590ish ilvl because tanks are busted as long as they can selfsustain. I can easily clear an 11 on a geared character now but early on things like guardian druids were just easy cheesy achievs.
I'm on board with this guy. This is the feature of this expansion, but already we're being given the "inferior method" vibe.
Personally, I would cap grouping in Delves at Tier 8 (there are some players who just can't, I'm married to one). Tier 9 and above should go solo only. And tissues should be on hands for any pity parties that arrive along with a good solid difficulty, not delve nerfs.
It was never meant to replace it.
Tuning content that is supposed to be "role agnostic" is a hard task to begin with. Tuning that "role agnostic" content for both solo and groups as well is even harder.
This 100% they need to make delves solo only so they can make balancing a little easier.
18, as you noted, is a slap in the face. As someone else said, 18 is the same as one M+ that can be farmed to cap. This is basically a punishment for solo players choosing not to also go back to M+ and its cess pool of toxicity.
A better balance where the other content still feels like special snowflakes would be maybe 30 per week. That gives a crafted piece in two weeks and forces an early choice. Players still need to clear 11s and contrary to some perceptions in the other video they are far from easy mode.
if you're a solo player only doing delves why do you need the higher ilvl? content should have rewards proportional to the difficulty, a one armed person with a mental disability can do delves, why should delves give almost the same reward as something 10 times harder?
While i really do not experience much if any toxicity in M+ when pugging (EU) i also think people should never be forced into content by rewards related to powerlevel.
@@premiumfruits3528this is a stupid and very close minded way to think. Why does the game need to be rewarding to people who are above 620 items level basically? Blizzard said delves were an endgame pillar and are treating it like a minigame that rewards almost nothing.
Why are you still trying to gatekeep prestige in a game as shameless as wow anyway, where everything you accomplish will just be overshadowed by a player afk in town who’s been playing since classic?
@@premiumfruits3528I farm +10s in m+ and raid mid mythic and I could care less if a solo player gets full mythic gear. You should do content you find fun because it’s fun the gear it drops shouldn’t be the “reward” for doing something you don’t enjoy.
@@alycynde5237 you should be punished for not doing group content in a group game. Then again it’s not punishment. You’re biased in calling it that. “I didn’t get what other people worked harder for” is not punishment
i hate it that tier 11 delves in season 1 were tuned for mythic raiders but they are meant to be for casual players, blizzard only tunes its game for top 1% of mythic raiders/high m+ score
Delves, particularly tier 11 are meant for solo - groups of 5. Why does that have to be synonymous with "casual?" I don't mind the idea of a solo player completing comparatively difficult content out of the reach of "casual" players that follows a similar reward structure to mythic+
top 1%? 25% of the playerbase running +10 keys and around 15% have atleast 4/8 in the mythic raid. The endgame was never as open as it is right now and you are still complaining. back in BFA when it capped at +15 for maximum reward we had less of 5% of the people doing +15 keys. i cant believe that there are still people complaining when the game is in its most casual spot it has ever been
@@SnackAttack127 no, it is meant to be for solo players, it has an option to be ran at 5man. I have a couple of friends that love single player experience in games and they really do not like grouping up with others as it's too much of a hassle to sit and queue and pray they invite you, plus they are casual players and they have only casual addons installed, immersion and stuff like that, they do not play with weak auras, rotation bots or details which other players do, so my friends are anxious ppl will criticize their performance in a content that is strictly made for solo players as solo experience
@@filecro6934 the point of what I wrote wasn't that they need to group. Delves allow them to run solo and that's good. But solo doesn't need to mean casual. I should be able to run solo content that is Difficult. I shouldn't be forced to group -- just like your friends shouldn't be forced to group -- just to run harder content. Delves should have tuning that allow for a casual solo experience AND for a more hardcore solo experience (though I do appreciate that i can group in delves if I want to. I like that it doesn't HAVE to be a solo experience because it means I can do something with 1 or 2 friends without having to queue....which is Exactly what you say you also don't want to do)
@@Max-9871 I think you've really missed the plot, wanna know why the percentage of players getting these things has gone up? Because the game have lost a LOT of players that keep being disrespected by the devs, why do you think the devs are making changes like this? They would only make these changes if they saw them selves bleeding players, but they are still thinking more of us hardcore raiders and M+'ers way more than them, 3 chests per week? Are you kidding me? Nobody wanna be forced to do M+ or even raiding, but they keep forcing players to do that content, but it's not okay to make us feel forced to do delves? It's disrespectful to a huge amount of people, so they will still see them selves lose players still and I'm not surprised... The game was meant to be for the casual players from the very beginning, back in 2004... They changed that cause of Bobby's vision for a future in E-Sports... So now the game's structure is all about E-Sport and they just can't stop needing for it to stay that way instead of just being the game millions of millions of players bought in to, and well, the estimated sub numbers speak for them selves.... I as a raider who want nothing to do with M+ and just wanted to raid at the highest difficulty are now going to quit too, cause I hate M+ with a passion and had hoped I could finally just get my gilded from content I actually enjoy instead of M+... I wanna play games for fun, tired of hating all the time I put in to wow other than when I step in to the raid.
Dumb limit, why do they hate the player so much. Let gilded drop in 8s and share the same seasonal cap as everyone else. Otherwise we still have that problem of people coming from devles to M+ for gilded, and bricking keys?!
Anything that helps me not feel like I need to do M+ to keep up in my heroic raid I am happy. Sure wish it was more then 18 but that is 18 more then I get now as I do not do M+.
I'm 618 on my main and still not gotten past tier 9 or beat Zekvir ?. So, putting the Gilded at tier 11 means I still won't be able to upgrade my gear to its full maximum. But you would think for Gilded chests, then maybe they bump it to at least 4 sets of 6 since you can only get 4 keys a week. People who can grind tier 11s are people who generally probably already run high mythic + dungeons anyways.
lol, Delves potentially give18 crests a week, while practically 1 M+ run gives close to that amount.
Well yeah? Delves are so easy that you can’t fail them, they should not give the same amount as m+
@@kafaen2 a +11 aint easy at all really. Unless you have full gear
Well, the problem seems to be that ppl find no m+ groups, are scared of depleted keys, find m+ toxic...etc - so...yeah...18 gilded are a bit underwhelming for a week of t11 delves....but there needs to be some kind of balance. I can see Blizzard raising the amount - and implementing a trade up, maybe? 45 runed for 15 gilded at a certain gear level.
@@seriously58 There already is that system, 45 runed for 15 gilded when you have every slot in 619
@@forel121 can confirm, tried for Immortal Spelunker title with a 620 Ret, oh boy. All the small trash has 12M+ HP and all the big boys have 45M, while easily hitting 2-3M unavoidable damage, not to mention the interruptable fireballs, that will be shot after 5sec anyways and your best case 15sec cd kick won't really help you.
Not gonna lie, Zekvir was easier, than trying to one by one taunting mobs on T11.
Also, you only have 3 lives, not 5 like on T8. Sure, you can restart it, but you can also just restart an M+, since they won't deplete up to 12 in S2.
It’s not like delve only players will be able to take on tier 11s early on. Compared to right now, tier 10 is 623, a level delve only players can’t reach until they get all hero track gear along with the harbinger of the runed. It will take weeks to months just to be able to do tier 11s. This isn’t really an update for the delve only players. It’s for the players that do M+ on the daily who would rather do a delve than wait half an hour for a pug when they only need a few more gilded crests.
Not unless you play a Ret Paladin.. solo rets seriously melts Delves
For some players. The top delves weren't to hard way below 620 or even 610.
@@covetousclub910 if you needed 623 for a 10 you are the reason, not the game.
18 is really low. I was hoping for 45. It should be 30 minimum.
ALSO, MAKE DELVES SOLO ONLY!
I had this opinion since TWW day1 and after having 9 chars (soon to be 1 of each class/min 13 chars) purely played in solo delves, I am even more convinced that it is the best for delves and community.
but its good while delve is a content for noobs
I'm not sure if they've changed it, but they are effectively solo only. I can solo t8 without any problems as healer, but in a t6 group the tank was very difficult to keep Alive and I (who normally tanks solo t8) was getting one shot by trash
@@seionne85 he means incapable of grouping. I’d say 2 is fine.
@johnj4471 oh I gotcha, I've never tried with anything but that 3 man group that was an absolute disaster lol it just blew my mind that we could all solo 8s but the 3 of us got creamed on a 6
Please no. Please god no. My wife and I play delves because its the only high end content we can do together without needing to drag other people into it. Delves strongest feature is thhat they are adaptable based off the type of player you are - do you want solo? Great. Do you want 1-2 other friends with you? Great. Do you want a full party? Still great.
My man has fallen. 30 seconds and no comments. I will fix it
Yes, finally we can get top level gear for solo play. I am fine with it taking longer. Raids and M+ should be a "faster" track to the highest tier of gear, but that should not be the ONLY track. Happy Winter Veil to us, :-) So excited!!! See you in Azeroth!
this nonsense of limiting us ONE upgrade per week is straight ass though. M+ Players are gonna continue to do M+ over Delves because Delves will be slower, there's no need to cap us anymore than M+ Players are capped.
Seems to me like raiders are the most level headed people in this game. All I hear is constant crying from m+ and, now, delve players.
Depends on if gilded catchups are a thing. If they are, a so called "average" skilled player won't clear 11s for a few weeks and by the time they can, their gilded limit will be that much higher.
Mentally there'd be much less stress on that person to race for 11s knowing the gilded is building up and waiting for them. Later on caps are lifted and so is the delve cap, and it's no sweat.
@@SoulSoBreezy Very true, and some may not do the 11s as they will be difficult and may just stick it out with 8s but time will tell. I am drinking my cup-o-hopium.
Think the issue is still going to come down to what delves are supposed to be. Theres no reason (in my opinion) that "solo" needs to equal "casual" but people freaked out in the first week of TWW when they werent able to clear tier 8 and Blizz gutted the difficulty. If you have *challenging* solo content that isnt built for you to blast through on week 1 (for exmple, most people arent shocked and screaming when they cant do a +8 on week 1 of a season), then it can and should have a similar reward structure to other challenging content. I should be able to be a casual raider or a more hardcore raider. I should be able to be a casual m+ player or a more hardcore m+ player. I should be able to be a casual delve player or a more hardcore delve player (delver? spelunker?).
If the cap goes up every week and runed crests are more attainable in the lower tiers to be traded up then fine, but otherwise 18 is too low.
agreed, it's still horseshit either way, because those of us Delving are going for Crafted Pieces, we cant in all likelihood get full Tier via the Vault, and if we could it would STILL be Hero Rank, not Myth.
I guess BLizzard couldnt do it differently cause especially M+ Players would have cried their eyes out how unfair it is and Delve players dont need any Crests at all. 18 is an insult but you have to cater to your fragile M+ Community while its on the decline.
@@galencox1531 only fragile ones are the ones crying right now that have been crying. It’s funny when you cry it’s “a valid point” but anyone else it’s fragile.
I imagine people will actually do delves in groups more than this first time around
Nice explanation! As always!
I raid. My guild gets Ahead of the Curve every tier. In The War Within I switched classes (from Prot Paladin --> Prot Warrior) and tried M+ for the first ever time. I’ll only run guild groups and we don’t have a regular M+ time slot like we do for raids, so I will go weeks in between runs. Currently sitting at about 2.2k score.
Why did I say all this? Because I feel like the argument for “cap of 18” is to somehow ‘pacify’ players that raid/M+ and that feels like absolute nonsense to me.
I raid because I want to. I took the Amirdrassil tier off because I was burned out. A new class reinvigorated my fun hence trying M+ for the first time ever. I never did M+ before, gearing up exclusively in raids, and usually that meant I had one of the lowest ilevels on my raid team. I’m enough of a veteran to remember when everyone geared up within the raid, when we didn’t need hero level gear before we could start progressing on heroic level raids (I feel like they tune for higher gear now but I digress). Anyway I didn’t want to M+ so I didn’t. My point being the game is a giant hamster wheel. I say that rather than using a buffet analogy because it is a circular system. We get gear/crests from content but that also enables us to do the content. We clear faster/progress to higher difficulties etc.
I have never understood why people say (like the example at hand) “oh delves are easier, why would anyone M+?” - maybe because people ENJOY M+? And if they don’t enjoy M+ then why do it? Sure there are difficulty humps and being able to ‘overpower’ by getting gear/crests from somewhere else can help, but that can be a short-term solution to a short-term problem. Now before anyone calls me naive I realise the social pressure. The need to optimise which pushes people to do content that makes them miserable. I feel very sad for them. I think people should just play however makes them happy. But let’s face it if somebody is optimising in this way, they are going to do it regardless of how much is available simply because it is there. I’m not really going to address the “superiority” argument because I don’t agree with it. What someone else does/has doesn’t affect me. This whole notion of ‘superiority’ is only reinforced with the feeling of ‘second class citizens’ that a cap such as 18 crests promotes.
TLDR: I think people should play the content they enjoy. Open up gearing, open up crests. There is a seasonal cap. I really don’t feel like there should be a delve specific cap at all but 18? That’s just mean.
NO delve specific cap. That’s what I think. I mean I started the season running 8x delves every week to max vault. I did that for like a month on my main and then I didn’t need to anymore. I did it sometimes on an alt but truthfully I didn’t have time. For someone that just does delves? Let them play! Equality. Fun for everyone.
If rewards aren't going to be proportional to the difficulty of the content, then the entire reward system is pointless and should be removed altogether. Everyone should be given a generic set of gear based on their class that just gets a little stronger every week automatically. Then at that point you might as well just remove gear and stats and rpg elements altogether and have everything be a baseline amount so everything can be perfectly balanced and fine tuned. Follow your argument to its logical conclusion and you'll see how dumb it is.
@ Actually no I think that would be fine. The only reason I don’t advocate getting rid of gear altogether is because being able to “outgear” content to get over tricky hurdles is helpful. With your described scenario where the power gets stronger each week, that possibility remains.
Bleeding edge folks could tackle their chosen content when power levels were low. Folks who need a little help can progress slower and manage higher difficulties as the season progresses. Sounds good to me! The date on achievements can still function to have folks show off if they really feel the need.
I don’t really get the notion of only doing the content ‘for the reward’. Isn’t actually getting to play the content the point? I mean the game is what we spend our time in game doing right? In terms of classic ‘endgame’ we raid, we M+, we delve. Yeah we get gear and that makes future runs easier/higher level/faster etc. But we are still doing the same content. There’s no magical “you have maxed your gear here’s a brand new game mode to play” - it’s all the same stuff. What we play for rewards, is just what we play because we enjoy it. The gear ‘treadmill’ exists to do exactly as you described with the power increases, it functions like a soft nerf. Having that power in the players hands gives players slightly more control over the timing of when they get the soft nerfs, but blizz through stuff like caps! still holds the reins. They decide how quickly we get stronger.
Let me put this another way. My motivation for raiding is Ahead of the Curve/Glory. Once I have got that I’m done for the raiding season unless my guild needs extra runs for folks who missed out, in which case of course I will keep going for them. The gear ‘reward’ is a nice side benefit but I would certainly never raid just for the gear. Transmog maybe because I can keep that, but gear gets reset every season.
My favourite alt (Demon Hunter) only has delves. I don’t raid or M+ on the alt. I like delves because I get to use my toolkit. Just like I get the achievement for my investment in raiding, or there’s the KSM mount or title as a reward for M+. Delves has Zek’thir as an ultimate challenge mode. The gear we get along the way helps us rise to the zenith of our chosen content. If we didn’t have power from the gear, it wouldn’t change anything about the content. I really like soloing old raids. Power increases helps with that, just like it helps with Zek’thir or Ahead of the Curve. Increasing in power is helpful to enjoy the content. That power being connected to gear isn’t as necessary.
@@galactic-pirates47 It's ok that you don't play for the gear or getting higher numbers, but it's foolish to think that you're in the majority. The entire point of the genre is to have a character that gets stronger over time. Regardless of how you feel or what you prioritize or what you most enjoy, that is objectively the point of an mmo. If you take away higher rewards for people doing higher difficulty content, that's the first step down a slippery slope of stripping everything away from the game that makes it what it is at its core. At that point you might as well just get rid of stats and rpg elements altogether and just make it a multiplayer action game.
@@premiumfruits3528First off I appreciate how calm you have made your point. It’s been a good debate, thank you.
Anyway I just wanted to say I never meant to imply my opinion spoke for anyone other than myself. I probably am not in a majority, I might be in a minority of one. Soul asked for opinions and so I gave him mine. I tried to be clear and establish my perspective as context, but that’s all.
So yes I do realise playing for achievements/collectibles/simply because I enjoy the class etc. isn’t true for everyone. In fact I do very much agree with your point about rewards being necessary for time spent. I don’t like doing content if I get nothing for it. Where we differ is I don’t see gear as the only valid reward. That’s ok. Life would be boring if we were all the same :)
Anyway thanks again. Always nice when folks can be civil on the internet ❤
10 crest per delve sounds fair
10 crests for content you can’t fail sounds VERY bad, everyone would be stuck in delves farming crests
Even just 2 per delve with no cap would be a lifechanger.
Not sure why there need to be a spesific cap from Delves, let is farm it like M+ people do.
Maybe they need to limit crest from M+ to 20 per week to keep it fair...
Will tier 11s be harder or be scaled in s2? With ilvl raised, wouldn't be much easier to complete 11s
Still really feels like M+ players refuse to just accept that theyre usually the ones ruining it for people. Toxic Elitists players ruin modes regardless of how well or terribly theyre setup. And once you go above tier 8, Delves start throwing in some bs mechanics that some classes an specs have an insanely hard time dealing with them. Want more M+ players and raiders? Then fix the toxic player base and try to be a lil more patient with ppl trying them. 😅
Not Blizzards job to fix toxic players. That is a problem with those players personality. It should fix itself in game. If the numbers show that delves are overtaking m+ in popularity, Blizzard will add better rewards to them. That is not saying that m+ should be removed or such - for everyone screaming how toxic m+ is - we still need to consider that the person screaming might be toxic or a Karen or just a bad player themselves that wants things handed to them. Also there are probably lots of m+ runs that work out great, that are done in guild groups, with friends, where people organize the runs socially - and you do not want to punish those by saying: Rather go solo....
Toxic happens in every game. Usually people who make these comments try to jump in and expect to finish it not knowing any mechanics or basics for the dungeon. They are above a 6 minute video on TH-cam and think the players with them should spend 40 minutes trying to carry them through so they can avoid any responsibility for them knowing anything about the content they are jumping into.
Blizzard continues to cater to that Toxic AF section of the playerbase, while doing fuck all to address the issue.
The reward should be based on the effort neccessary to get them. The issue with Delves is that there's only one factor that defines how difficult the content is: What class/spec you play. If Tank-Brann fixes this, that's cool. But as long as a T11 is freeloot for Tanks and impossible for most cloth-DPS or healers, fixing any rewards-structure for this type of content misses the point. Fix balancing for all classes. Set the difficulty to where you want it. Give rewards according to the difficulty. Done.
Tanks deserve it.
They are your brave leaders.
I mean, the obvious solution is that Delves give worse rewards to tanks. Problem solved 😆
My question would be, will the Great Vault rewards be upgraded in some way as well? If that is the case, then it won't be so bad.
Since returning to the game last year, I have done almost only delves. I run a lot of alts and have several up to iLvl 615+, through a combination of GV and bountiful rewards. Until now I've never done a 9+ tier delve because, from what I've been told by the Internet, they offered nothing over T8; except bragging rights, about which I don't care. I think I currently have a bunch of gilded scattered over something like 15 characters, with maybe 9-10 on any one, at most. So, they drop occasionally from lower stuff. Getting 6 per, which would be 1 upgrade for 1 piece of gear for running 3 T11s seems a bit low to me. Not sure it would be worth it. Maybe on a warlock, for whom these things are a bit easier, but certainly not a mage, for whom it is a much bigger chore, mostly for the end-boss fights.
strongly doubt we'll get Myth gear from Vault as a Delver.
@@UltimateGamerCC I would not expect that. The wailing and gnashing of teeth from the RAID/M+ community would drown out the mating calls of gorlocks.
But what WOULD be nice, and I think not unfair, would be to have some sort of token system, where instead of a piece of gear you could get gilded crests.
No datamined info on myth gear off the delve row, but I doubt it'll be a thing. I know people want blizzard to not care what m+ and raid people thing but like it or not they want to appeal to all audiences. Myth track gear from delves would disrupt gearing across the board and would challenge mid level raiders to progress into mythic.
Just like how "elitists" tell delve people to get good and get into keys and raids, it's sort of like delve people telling these players in the middle/high skill band to get into mythics and high keys which is...odd
@@SoulSoBreezy I don't want them to not care about Raid and M+ people think. I just want to feel like the care, even a little bit, about my thoughts. And I never said any myth gear on the delve row. More specifically, I would like to have a way to upgrade my hero gear past level 4, so a source of gilded crests from the vault track, to supplement what you get from higher tier delves.
It doesn't have to be a competition. Raid and M+ people can have the better gear. Hell, give them 100 more iLvl than me. Let them walk among us like gods. I could care less. I just want to feel like I am making some progress, which I kind of don't anymore. The rewards that matter come less and less often as you approach the effective max, and one upgrade to one slot per week would not be enough to motivate me to do much grinding out of content I've done dozens of times. I have so many alts because the only way I can keep interested is by doing it on characters that play differently.
I know I'd be weirded out if crests came from the vault outside of tokens of merit. It's basically waiting for those upgrade tokens AND getting a possible gear upgrade that kinda messes with my head in a confusing way.
Well, to me, it's hard to imagine that solo players...that is the kind of players who always solo (as opposed to M+ and raid players who are soloing at the moment) will ever reach 11 at all. That's fine, of course. I just mention this to remind everyone that there are different types of solo play out there and to not group it all together in one's thinking.
I am a solo player. I have cleared Tier 11. It is more challenging than an 8 of course but by no means impossible. The assumption here is that someone is a solo player because they are incapable of doing M+ or raids. This is incorrect. I used to raid with a guild but for a variety of reasons I don't want to commit to that now. As for M+ I have done it from time to time but do not enjoy it. Delves are exactly what I enjoy.
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I did a +11 delve this morning for curiosity and on my VDH 116ilvl, it definitely was a challenge.
Definitely feels like an end game pillar to me.
It would be nice if they could go up to 15s fur a bigger challenge and potentially more cress?
Season 1 I do renown to cap and run Delves, then do the campaign.
Season 2 is when I start my M+ journey.
Delves have been a breath of fresh air, had to rig a defensive warrior to complete a level 9 Delve successfully.
My ilvl 615 priest got spanked in level 9s.
What ilvl do i need to be able to trade crests up for gilded?
you need 619 minimum in every slot
619 in every slot.
Maybe people will call me a symp, but as a previous outdoor-only player that accepted only really getting Veteran and the occasional Champion piece, I'm honestly pretty happy that I even have a chance at the mythic tier set appearances this time around, heroic is already cool af. I absolutely get the argument that it's unnecessary to reduce delve rewards, but I also worry about the tradeoff of the system - at present it's pretty accessible for anyone to get heroic appearances and gear, I would hate to see it get harder just so they can justify giving out mythic stuff. Not everyone needs to get every type of gear.
You shouldn't let Blizzard get away with this treatment of players, there's really no reason for any of this other than. "We love raiders and M+ players way more than any of you, go be forced to do that as well... While we do our very best not to force them to do this!" It's just dumb on so many levels and extremely disrespectful.. I've always hated their treatment of you guys... I do mythic raiding btw, so I'm saying this as a person who should be one of those gate keeping gear and upgrades from you... Do not accept it, it's just disrespectful. Also as a high end raider, I hate M+, for years they've been forcing us to spam dungeons everyday all day to "Keep up"... Just let people play the way they want... I had hoped that I finally could never ever touch another M+ dungeon again... But now, so I think I might finally actually just quit wow, go to other games that respects me and my time... I love raiding, but not enough to do another season of the shittiest content there is in the game, it's not fun to me and I'm not about to let Blizzard force me to play the game "Their" way and just not have any fun at all... I refuse to keep being treated this way yet again....
As a returning player who has no way of getting raiding or M+ gear yet, there is a wall at T10, a steep incoming damage increase, especially from caster mobs. Nothing fancy, it just requires more stamina than any gear from delves or other sources can comfortably handle from a month of play. One weekly 616 item from the Vault, provided all unique "drops", puts it to 18 weeks or 4.5 months to get full Hero gear. 18 weeks is 144 bountiful delves at minimum. That's a lot of delves to clear. I don't need higher ilvl, I'd just like to have more stamina. In that regard, the new ring is a godsend.
what you need is to play smarter, use cover to screw the casters over and/or take them down first. use CC to incapacitate any mobs that you can. this is what allowed us to easily do 8s in S1, the same can apply to 11s, just not easily. for me, the 18 Crest cap for Delvers is just stupid as all hell.
IMO, it should just be a general formula like all crests from delves can only make 70% of the cap. No other cap around it should exist
I thought 30 sounded like a decent number. Couple step upgrades a week or save 2 weeks to make a crafted piece. I do a little bit of everything on my main. I honestly didn't see 30 as a "I now have to do delves". Assume going in to S2, with S1 gear, reliance on delve gear will be less for my main. Based on how 11's feel now, and if you get 6 gilded per, I wouldn't see delves being more efficient. Id stick with + on my main. For my alts sake, I hope they increase it.
Doing solo content to get BiS, highest ilvl gear has always been apart of WoW. Even allll the way back in Classic. I killed elementals to craft my epic chest piece on my mage, and I soloed (solo was required) demons for my epic bow on hunter. You didn't need these items to clear the highest content, but people wanted/grinded for it. Soooooooooooo, why are sweaties worried about solo players getting high level gear? IDK. I'd bet my left testicle that over half the people who do a +10 each week pay for it with gold. Gold they buy with IRL money (that's their business and it doesn't affect me). And I hate to break it to the M+'ers and raiders, +8s and herioc raids to get Guilded aren't hard either. Stop patting yourself on the back. IF you don't wanna play delves, don't. And don't worry about other people playing them either. And Blizz, just make things fun for the people that do the content. People that complain that Blizz doesn't "respect my time" or "feel forced to play X" are grown adults and need take responsibility for their own time, and those people need to quit worrying about other peoples' time. This is a game, not slavery. No one is forcing you to devote your time to things you don't enjoy.
because WoW has bred Elitism through M+.
iirc you definitely didn't get very many epics (let alone BiS) from solo content
I've been a delve enjoyer on my alts, while my main does M+ and some mythic raid. Delves have been a great way to get a couple vault slots, but have not been a good source of crests. While I think the 6 crests given at the end is fair (a mythic boss only gives 10) the cap of 3 chests a week does seem a bit low (total 18 crests), especially with an M+ run giving up to 20. However, I don't think that delves should end up as the go to way to farm guilded crests, and if that means the balancing towards delve rewards seems low, so be it.
Lately I'm getting the feeling, that the game is not following any path of progresssion. More like little bits of this and that are added, but somehow doesn't affect the core (which engulfed in many additional entities becomes empty). And only the constant changes drives people playing, cause „hope”.
I'm not convinced theres a large enough swath of players for this to merit the change (meanging those who would TRULY enjoy doing tier 11s for a handful of gilded). What I do think will happen is this will attract those who "feel forced" to do it and complain on forums the entire time. That juice dont feel worth the squeeze, but I guess we will see. Hopefully they can find the right balance of rewards to satisfy the first group I mentioned without enslaving the second.
Mostly agree, when the outcomes are bad it's easier to buff than nerf to improve that outcome
It was obvious they weren't going to give much by the pitiful amount of Runed Crests we get from chests in season 1. They are stingy. People wanting 30 to 90 was a pipedream. I'm actually surprised it is more than 12
I don't want raiding to ever feel like it is not a special form of content and should be rewarded as such. I also love delves and the idea of ANY player getting decently geared and enjoying skill based challenges. The best solution in my mind is to find a bridge from delving to raiding and M+ that is rewarding and engaging.
I think the upcoming renown track for raids is a good start although I won't be surprised if it can be progressed outside of raid too
i cleared a t11 delve without a death for the achieve before ilvl 600. prot pally ftw
The delvers are not as big as a problem for mythic plus as some make it out to be. This issue is related to, since Vanilla, people have been jumping into content they should never have been doing. Happened before delves and will continue
Blizzard, as usual, is being conservative with crest allocation in game content. I don't think they should be overly concerned about being potentially too generous with crests since they already impose a weekly crest cap as a stop-gap measure anyways. Delves are evolving from season to season which is a good thing in my opinion.
I have a feeling iteration will continue as the seasons go by. For now at least it's plain to see if there was a path to the same item level, two paths involve group play and one is solo, it's almost a non choice what gamers will do.
@@SoulSoBreezy Path of least resistance aye?
Definitely. Solo players in this thread are telling m+/raid people they shouldn't care what rewards they get, but their primary critique is based on them being angry over what rewards the m+/raid people get.
It's kind of natural these days to distrust the devs are rewarding players fairly but to me at least it's clear there's that intent to be as fair and non-disruptive as they can.
Soul, I think Blizzard made it cap to 18 for Tier 11 Delves BEFORE they decided to super buff Mythic+ gilded crest drops. We have to remember it's only datamined information. I think Delve players will receive a bit more when 11.1 actually drops
Yeah, of course this is as-is feedback, we'll see if they release a big ol dev blog which makes for good discussion
They should just give you 500 gilded crests for subscribing. Seriously, how much easier do people want this game to be? I hear there are some tap style tablet games out that might be more what some are looking for.
Idc about crests or delves as much as long as they fix m+ tuning and make it more pug friendly, if they wanna give delves a higher crest drop cool good for the delve players. While delves probably did give too high gear for only doing a t8 being champion track for end of run and hero for vault for it being that easy. The mob tuning was way off in m+, tank changes(durability change) made a lot of tanks unfun and unfriendly causing an insane decline in tank player base, a lot of mobs in every dungeon with tank busters for nearly every pack, healing checks and overall healing requirement (ping pong hp bars) plus needing cleanses i.e curses and poisons (damage was way too high per tick). I'd rather these changes be addressed than crests, you can always tweak/buff crest drops but balancing all these changes for a pillar game mode are more important to the health of the overall game.
This is all datamined, not confirmed though. We don't really know if what was datamined is actually true. As you keep saying, we should wait for PTR to see the actual values, and submit the feedback from it.
a lot of people saying 18 is too little, and that a single M+ can give you 18. An 11 completed in time gives 18 gilded. Fewer than 5% of the population do 11's. 3 delves x 4 weeks...gives you bis crafted item. That's more than fair, and they don't want to kill M+. I'd be in favor of increasing it slightly. maybe 20 per week, giving you 3 weeks to be able to craft max item. But delves are easier and faster than M+ 8-12's. I think as such, it needs to reward a touch less.
people don't do them because the gear prog stops at 8, the whole point is we dont want to do mplus to be able to even do an 11 and we want to be able to prog at a half decent rate like every other end game player. (in the less than 5% here btw)
Okay, then one and a half +8, which is still done in 45 mins, while you'd be tryharding pulling mobs one-by-one on T11 because it's definitely overtuned even at 620 ilvl, only to get 2 crests at the end. People who say delves are easy have most probably never tried T11 ever, or did it in 630+ gear.
Delves are like dungeons, the lower tier delves is like follow/lfg dungeons. T8 is around heroic dungeons. Cant say for sure about the higher tiers, got my ass handed to me in T9 but timed the +4 i tried...
we have Alts you know!?
I only gear up these days from delves. I dont do dungeons or raids anymore. I've gotten 1 map on my pally, 2 on my lock and 2 between my two hunters. The droprate is atrocious.
wich addon is the one that change the damage numbers?
It should be up to 30 per week on delves. This way it is 2 weeks per crafted item or 2 upgrades a week. 18 feels kind of mean.
not even kinda mean, just straight up cruel.
lol okay stop acting like we're being oppressed or something, napkin math tells me gearing will be incredibly fast and accessible compared to S1 (but still depends on if there'll be gilded chest catchups)
Solo player only delves !
You give them a finger.....
Have yet to break T12 delve, not really worried about.
there is no 12, 11 is the end of the line, with 9-11 previously giving nothing better than an 8.
@UltimateGamerCC i was under the impression it ran higher but after 11 it's all cosmetic drops.
Don’t understand why people keeps complaining every single season and yet keeps playing the game. Blizzards is not stupid they know what they’re doing to keep you guys the cattle happy.
Couldn't blizzard solve the M+/Delve issue if they use the same level lockout they use for delves for M+? Complete a 2 to do a 3 and so forth.
They can, but imagine stating up mid season and having to wait for and find a full group who are looking to get past those pesky level gates so you can finally start "playing thr game."
The idea has merit but there're wishy washy feelings over how much players want blizzard to control their behavior.
@@SoulSoBreezy Understandable, could this perhaps a issue with individual ability verse personal expectation?
This is a cross over system issue that doesn't appear to have set any sort of expectation for the player or group to measure their ability against their expecatation. Without a standardized way to measure against, everyone starts at different spots. I can understand wanting to do what you want and yet that shouldn't prevent you from having to provide some sort of result you are ready for something different and/or harder. Gotta have the gear or do the mechanics to kill the monster afterall. How they go about that would be fun to discuss. Appreciate ya Soul.
This is way too low !! 45 should be a minimum !!!
no matter how many crests they drop, first they have to make sure t11 delves are actually fun. right now it´s the worst slog on the planet. Also just give Delvers as many Crests as everyone else, let people play the content they actually want to play.
endgame doesnt understand the meaning of fun.
@@UltimateGamerCC y, unfortunately their priority seems to be some "appropriate rewards" instead of making a fun game. Fortunately the game is still fun most of the time, but i think they screw themselves and us so much with that nonsense philosophy.
The opinion of players who do raids and/or m+ as their main WoW activity really does not matter. Not to disrespect or hate on them, but their comparison of reward vs effort doesn't make sense. Delves are open to them too, and WoW is not a job where you get paid for your effort/performance. It is a game that is meant to be played for fun/entertainment.
Bottomline: 18 crests/week is NOT FUN!
Yeah but you get more rewarded for more the time you put in, and people wanna see progress. And to do m+/raid you need gear and score. And you don't get that from being lazy and just play now and then. You have to commit if you actually wanna play the end game.
This is laughable and no Blizzard. I will not play your crappy Mythic+ mode.
Tell me why do you feel the need to get mythic level gear if you just do delves? The point of mythic gear is so you’re able to do higher and higher MYTHIC content. You can do delves just fine in lower lvl gear..
@@chessiecat7860 why do you feel you deserve the gear when you play Simon Says?
This isn’t great for unlocking the max level crafts, but good enough to unlock one mythic appearance a week when you upgrade a heroic item in the vault.
yeah.. especially when Tier is locked off from Delvers now, we dont get Catalyst charges anymore.
@ wait what ?? You can’t convert delve items to tier ? No catalyst charges ? Link?
Uh I haven't heard anything like that and we still get charges?
Anything not to have to pug M+. As a healer Pugs are horrible.
A classic blizzard 🙌 merry Christmas players
Why be in an MMO if you want to play solo?
I only run delves and it does sound really low. I haven't been able to run tier 11 delves in season 1 yet so I suppose this also doesn't really apply to me since I'm not that far along. I think it should be higher and delve only players should be ale to get more gear more easily since that is a track for that player base. Then again, I also think blizzard should get rid of keys altogether also and simply allow players to open 4 chests per day as a daily cap.
LOL ew! literally capping us still that way btw... since the 4 chests you want to limit have the Crests in there!
are delvs dead now?
not even remotely, but they arent pigeon-holding us any less than usual, all to keep the M+ crowd feeling special, even when they hate M+ atm. as usual Blizzard PROACTIVELY sends the Fun Police, while ignoring the issue that M+ sucks ass at current.
@UltimateGamerCC i totaly agree that m+ sucks hard! Lets hope for better times in S2
Do the gilded crest from t9-t11. Not just t11
to little and t11 can be really hard for some
Most*
They said "endgame for all" not "timely endgame progression for all". Game devs are usually stingy, I see it all the time. Especially for non-raid content. Thumbs up for great videos.
Insulting, that's what such a cap is. Stop treating a huge part of your playerbase like they're lesser players, Blizzard!
Then, they should make open world content hard enough to require mythic gear. Why else do you need it.
@@Jenkyllllls the game should be about playing the content. Not this classist mini game of separating who's better or who's worse by determining who spends more time beating their head against a screen doing m+. Always been wow's problem. The top 1% of sweaters want to feel like they lord over everyone and blizz has designed the game around them and it's suffered over the years because of this.
@@jaypoopycatsah yes sling insults when you have no argument. You don’t need mythic gear if you’re not doing mythic content. It’s not classist. Get out of here and get better.
If delves gave as many crests as m+ then you'd have players that usually play m+ farming delves instead though.
@@jaypoopycatsI have fully upgraded by gear to hero 6/6 without ever doing “mythic” content and I’m definitely not sweaty. How much easier do you want the game to be?
If you make delves give remotely close to the amount of gilded crest a m+ run does then m+ sweats will complain until blizzard nerfs delves. Remember they don’t even want you to get heroic gear from delves once a week. And historically blizzard caters to the hardcore sweats with the podcasts.
I agreed with the critique that having 10+ keys at the start of S1 made early gearing heavily favor delves.
If we can't get delve keys until the start of the season that'd mean we'd have 4 to start with (so 4 champ pieces) which I think is much more reasonable
@ tbh i wasn’t even making commentary on what should or shouldn’t happen. I was just saying that if blizzard doesn’t tread the line and makes delves better than m+ then a lot of sweaty nerds are gonna be mad.
Personally even though I might be technically a sweat, l still think casuals are the lifeblood of the game and I wouldn’t get nearly as good raids and m+ without them both financially supporting the game but also the in game consumables economy. So if them eventually getting good gear is the worst thing that happens to me then I’m here for it.
I don't get Blizzard's obsession with trying to force everyone into m+. Let people play the type of content they want, and let them get rewarded for that content. If a person wants to raid all week, they should be allowed to. If a person wants to m+ all week, they should be allowed to. And if a person wants to delve all week, they should be allowed to. (I also feel like we need another form of progression dungeon content to run alongside m+ that is focused on dungeons designed to be taken with crowd control and without a timer since not everyone likes rush dungeon content... but... I dunno if that discussion is something the community as a whole is ready for)
Actually what I don't get is why people think Blizzard is trying to "force" people into m+. It's the presumption that attaining max myth track gear is the only way to feel good in the game and that's demonstrably untrue. I get some people see getting BiS each season as a goal, 100% fine. But not everyone feels that way and that reflects in how Blizzard offers all these different options people can choose to be their endgame, or not.
I can only use myself as an example but I haven't done keys at all and got AOTC just fine, I'll finally start doing keys soon to get the KSM mount and that's it. One would consider my standards to be low but to me, I'm setting goals I find attainable, and hitting them alongside friends.
Also what you describe as a dungeon with CC, that is in fact delves depending on difficulty and class makeup.
@@SoulSoBreezy Blizzard has designed the game such that Mythic+ becomes the default fallback content for everyone. Because it is the only content that provides progression to the top tiers in a repeatable manner. Hence EVERY player who wants to achieve gear progression into the end game eventually has to do m+. Once you've done your raids for the week, if you want to keep playing... what can you do? More M+. If you've gotten your delve cap for the week, what can you do? M+.
It is pretty clear that, in the current state of the game, Blizzard sees M+ as 'the content' that every gear-minded player should be doing, and I don't think that's long-term healthy for the game.
It's statements like that make me think yeah, people're tripping over themselves or letting themselve be gaslit into thinking as you say, "EVERY player who wants to achieve gear progression into the end game eventually has to do m+." Not everyone is going at the same pace and especially solo players, they've got no one to compete with but themselves.
It's super easy for us to argue the principles but in practice I imagine most* solo players are going to spend their time doing 11s if they can, but focus more on capping Runed to max the hero gear they'll be getting. Whether the gilded chest is given the season treatment is a BIG deal, that's why it was my first question. If it is given the season treatment, cool. It's a MUCH less stressful race towards the gildeds that're just waiting for em. And as said throughout this thread, 11s are gonna be tough for a lot of people. It's presumptuous to assume most* people will be slamming into the delve gilded cap week 1.
18 a week? Thats lame as hell.
What a joke! I understand M+ players are going to complain about how delves are easier and those players should not be getting gilded but that has nothing to do with it. It's all about the amount of time a person plays and enjoys what they are playing. Mythic+ players will get capped each week by doing the content they like to do while delve players will receive scraps for doing the content they like. This just seems wrong to punish a player from getting what they deserve for spending the time playing the game the way they want to play.
I am cleaning 11s on my 610 prot pally Brain on dps. Shammy, I can't get past 8. Higher geared.
Dis priest 9 higher geared.
BTW bran never dies, try it.
That's the real issue here. Difficult content should reward high quality loot. But how difficult a delve is depends 100% on your class/spec. On my Blood DK I tear an 11 Delve to shreds in under 10 Minutes and would feel like cheating, if I got the same amount of crests as I did for a M+ run. On my Shadow Priest I honestly haven't even attempted anything above 8, even though I can clear those without much hassle at this point. I still expect an 11 on the Shadow to be a serious piece of work and would probably rather run a M+8.
If players don’t do higher tier m+ and only casual content why they need them crests?
If people can do anything in their city with a bicycle or a small car, why do they need an SUV? Hint: You don't "need" it. Just like 2 people living together don't "need" a big house if they don't have children etc etc. I like to see my ilv go up and maybe I am a shit player who needs a higher ilv to overcome the next delve challenge. In short: Don't tell people how to live their lives or enjoy the game. I can only ride one mount...I have 10 favorites...why do I need 500? I still have over 500...and will get next..and the next..and the next. Same with toys. And pets
@ then do higher tier content
@@Basurci all you do is play Simon Says, you dont play WoW, you AI Sub-Routine!
@@UltimateGamerCC upload video of your wow chars and what you do wanna see what I’m doing wrong
18 a week is unacceptably low. Let us farm crests uncapped from all content like the degenerates we are. We want to feel like we are progressing. We want to feel like we are beating the game. These endless farms for currency are rough for us average players because we have to spend hours every week doing them.
Maybe this week I want to be a degenerate and take a week off after that then come back and do it again. These weekly caps make all that feel bad man.
We are not all degenerates
@@SoulSoBreezy agreed.... but sometimes.... its fun to just farm stuff
Sometimes works out. I have a feeling in practice people'll be busy in the early weeks making sure they farm up as much Runed as they can (assuming the higher income) and building themselves up. Without knowing the difficulty it's presumptuous to talk like we'll be slamming the cap every week starting week 1.
what a shame. I think they dont value their player base that much... delves are the most popular pillar of TWW and they give u nothing for it...
This is less than one ilvl increase overall on a character per week….pathetic 🤬😡
Not shocked not surprised. I've already moved on from this game
FFS COME ON, BLIZZARD! why you gotta do us like this?? stop it! not our fault that M+ sucks shit!
If blizzard keeps putting up walls after wall after wall the players will get sick and tired of it and quit..maybe there trying to kill there own game. More complaints.. getting louder and louder.. like taking away pets from mm hunters whats up with that??..
So I believe 18 Gilded a week is way better than I thought it would be. Especially if I can also get like 30 runed from those same runs, thats a fair amount. You are aslo making a bad assumption. If Season 2 delves of 11 are equal to the same as Season 1 8s or even 9s, you can be ready for those in a couple of weeks.
I think 18 a week is fine if I can trade into another 30 in delves. I dont mind it.
6 weeks for one Crafted Piece is shit.
Blizz just stop seperating gear progression from M+ and delves. Give the same amount of crests/ilvl gear to the delvers 0 reason to seperate them when they are just as easy. And yes a +8 is as easy as a +11 delve. Because it is all fun and friend time. The real skill comes after +8 where it goes from fun with friends to skill heavy dammage. Tactical pulls etc. So no reason to seperate when it is the same dificulity.
Dont have to lissen to those who dont want to share their loot cause they are likely boosters who benefit from people wanting gear. So they are butthurt about losin clients.
Giving good gear to delvers aswell as M+ runners also lowers reason to buy boost for raids because people can more easily jump into raids as better geared and get their curve if they study the bosses.
Something tells me bountiful chests will give 3 Gilded, with a weekly cap of 4.
3x4 + 3x6 = 30 Gilded per week.
I showed you what the numbers would be (so far).
Well, you were right. But this also means that you simply do delves in the first 2 weeks for the heroic loot in vault. After that, they become irrelevant for most people just like now
18 gilded per week is definitely much lower than I was expecting. Still want to see a way to upgrade gear's track too.
Based on the current proposed changes and my recent experiences I won’t be doing Delves anymore.
I’m really curious how the raid renown track will work. If I’m correct, doing the raid once per week on one character will give my whole warband the ability to buy two raid items. They will be low level, but can be upgraded to max ilvl. If this is the case I will be raiding.
I have been trying out your suggestion to use communities to do M+. This works so much better. I’m having fun again with M+. So I’ll probably keep doing that.
Delves will be me backup choice for when there aren’t any M+ groups up and for specs I don’t like to play in a group setting.
Blizz as usual catering to the 1% of players....whats the point of making delves less than.
Id rather have changes to crafting done so you can only equip like 3 crafted items at the same time so that wont be abused as much. Since I want the solo grind mostly to upgrade the annoying stuff while watching a movie or binging a series on the side.
I like delver but still haven't really tried using it lol
I notice in this conversation people talk about casual versus elitist/hardcore, but I think this is a much more black and white comparison, solo versus group play and rewards. It's much easier to make comparisons from that perspective.
Do +11's for fun/challenge I suppose? As much as it would be nice to max out hero gear as a solo/co-op player, LFR/weekly world gear in Season 3 will replace it anyway...it's not like I "need" it if I can actually do +11's to get the gilded crests in the first place. I don't particularly like or agree with a cap, but I don't find it a big deal. Let's start a daily reminder to remove the max cap on Valorstones...oh, and let's hope we get some different non-trash tier delve trinkets.
L take
Tanks and Healers deserve something good.
I expect at least 3 upgrades with gilded crests in (2 * 27 = 54 (45)) weeks and not 4 in 3 weeks likes it is now. (3 * 18 =54 (45)) and then i am very very very modest.
6 weeks for Crafted.
I can’t believe I am still up, but 18 is fine for me. Also never understood the “feels obligated to do” you could say that about any track that has gilded. Hey devs hope you had a good holiday!
I hope they don't buff delves a lot, so you have to do that in groups as well then.
why we're getting Tank Brann.
If they're giving players that many crests for doing what is literally the easiest end game content available, then keys and raid bosses need to give WAY more than they do now. This won't end well.
I don’t agree, the number of guilded crests is so small and they only drop from 3 11’s per week, which is still very gated and will have no impact on M+ or Raid. Why would a solo player very slowly getting guilded crest impact anything else….. it just provides a growth path that did not exist for solo players before.
@@cmdr7974 it has nothing to do with solo players getting crests, it's a high enough number, when you factor in the numbers for keys and raid boss kills, that raiders will feel like they're forced to also do delves to supplement their progression
solo players always think when raiders are against stuff like this, it's because we don't want them to have the stuff we have, when that couldn't be further from the truth, the truth is we don't give a shit about solo players and what they do or what they have, we spend literally zero seconds thinking about them, the real reason is because we don't want to do your content, because we don't like it, because it's shitty and boring
me and most everyone who does the content I do wouldn't give a single fuck if solo players were given 100 crests per delve with no cap, as long as we got enough from OUR content that we didn't feel like we had to also do yours
Given the volume of crests available from M+ and raid bosses already not sure why you think you need to do shitty delves as you put it.
It's 18 more than they should give.
keep playing Simon Says, you AI Sub-Routine!
2025, same issues every patch, players still on the treadmill 🫠