I love the fact that it has such a prosaic name. Instead of something like "The Battle Of The Heavens Crashing Into The Hells On The Plains Of Howling Demons" it's "The Battle Of Emridy Meadows."
One thing I thought of after the video was already complete. The Horde must have come mostly from the Pomarj, via the Suss Forest. Losing 20k or so troops would have crippled any sort of plan the leaders of the Pomarj had for conquest, but after a generation passed, they had rebuilt their strength. And that's exactly when Turrosh Mak began his own campaign to build an empire. The timing works out perfectly. Also, I never played any of the D&D computer games, including the Temple of Elemental Evil game. Until they come out with something that is explicitly part of the canonical continuity, I'm solely interested in the print material.
Interesting overview. Just a nitpick about who does what. Likely the pike doesn't move - because pike are very bad at moving any direction but forward and event that slowly. The description says the cavalry is the force that encircles from the west, while elves encircle from the east. That makes the pike the nave of the envelopment, the immovable lynchpin around which everything else rotates, which very much makes sense. Gygax was a miniatures wargamer, so he'd have a decent grasp of these things.
Agreed, but the pike would at least need to pivot, or else the Horde would be attacking their rear. I don't see any mention of squares, but I suppose that's possible. I would more likely see that as a tactic used by Perrenlander mercenary pikemen.
I really enjoyed your explanation of the battle. It's very viable and makes sense. That was one of my favorite parts of the gazateer. 😁 Emridy Meadow is in the TOEE video game as an exploration point with undead and a hill giant and his bear pet!
On the one hand, I agree it feels like a climactic battle like this should involve a large number of troops, on the other hand, given the maps we have of the moat house and the temple, neither seems capable of hosting tens of thousands of troops, or even thousands of troops, frankly. The moat house feels like it would be crowded even with numbers just in the hundreds. If large armies were summoned to either the temple or the moat house, most of the troops would have had to encamp in a rather large area surrounding either facility. It would be quite a logistical feat to marshal them into battle given how widely dispersed their encampments would have to be for numbers that large (tens of thousands). Given how notoriously difficult it is to marshal evil humanoids, especially chaotic evil ones, to do much of anything, that again tends to suggest lower numbers. But then the lure of what a victory might bring to the side of evil might be enough to hold the attention of even the chaotic evil troops long enough to get to the battlefield in good order. So there are strong arguments for both larger numbers and smaller numbers. Really hard to know!
I've commented in one of your earlier videos that it's because of videos like this is why I absolutely love your channel. This video just reenforces my earlier comment. Sir, this video is one that I have long wanted to see done discussing this very topic. Your commentary is just so damn good that I can't help but want to consider it as canon in the history of the world of Greyhawk. As for your theory of why the temple stopped using lawful evil creatures ( orcs, goblins, and hobgoblins, etc.) is not only because of the humanoids hatred of their racial enemies which caused the hoard of evil creatures and men to be destroyed by the forces of good, but also due to the fact that the temple is dedicated to the forces of chaotic evil and demons in particular ( remember, Tzuggtmoy/ Zuggtmoy is a very powerful demonic power herself) so I believe, and this is just my own theory mind you, that the lawful evil creatures were also to be used as sacrifices to the demoness and the forces of chaotic evil, thus strengthening chaotic evils power and influence, ala the blood war. Great video as always my friend. 👏👏👏
I would agree that the Second Battle was either directly outside the temple, or close by. It was just the bottom rung troops (kobolds and goblins) that were sent to basically keep the good guys busy while the important players escaped.
I got very interested in this battle after buying the Battlesystem boxed set. My father was military, as were my grandfathers and two uncles, so I grew up steeped in military history books, from the ancient world to the Cold War. I ended up doing three different research papers on the Punic Wars and Hannibal Barca, so I was very aware of ancient/medieval battle tactics. I felt like Gygax was trying to emulate the battle of Cannae with Emridy Meadows, where Hannibal inflicted the worst defeat Rome ever experienced by using a double envelopment (pincers move) and wrecked an army 2-3 times his army's size. The bulk of his army were medium infantry from Spain and Gaul, their intention to keep the Roman legions occupied while his pikemen moved into position on the flanks. His African pikemen, highly trained in phalanx formation, moved down alongside the Roman army, and did indeed pivot on each side, both rotating 90 degrees to end up striking the Romans from 3 sides. Hannibal's cavalry completed the envelopment by driving off the inferior Roman cavalry and striking the Romans from behind. It was a slaughter, much like that inflicted on the Horde of Elemental Evil.
Paul Stormberg ran the Siege of the Moat House at Gary Con. Very fun. Would be cool to see a campaign of the full battle covering the full conflict and personalities.
Good analysis. I would say that the pikemen formed square (well-trained and disciplined pikemen historically could and did manage to change front in a battle, usually when given a small space. And that space occurred fairly frequently when a non-pike opponent faced them. Most troops without matching pikes don't like to impale themselves on pikes, and historically, troops often shifted to their right, keeping their shields nearer the pikes. If the Dwarves and Gnomes fell back toward the river while shifting to their right, that would keep them in contact with their allies, turning the line at a right angle. Then, as the Temple army advanced and rotated to their left, this turned their backs to the forest, leading to the forces of the Elves to be able to hit them from behind. When hit hard from behind, and not given time to react and "form square", even good troops can break. Panic is contagious in an army, and once the front line troops hear the battle in their rear, they lose cohesion, and when it's a mixed force of Kobolds, Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, Ogres, evil Men, etc. who may have their own reasons to mistrust their "allies", they may even end up fighting amongst themselves in an attempt to escape. Historically, once an army breaks and runs, that's when the slaughter begins. Enjoyed the video, and I'm looking forward to your next. 🙂
The problem is that the pikemen are said to be on the allied right, which is right along the river. They'd have to be in the center in order to form the pivot-point of the allied line.
Interesting that there was no mention in the short write-up of any major NPCs. You'd think that there would have to be powerful Magic-Users and/or Clerics, if they are placing wards to entrap Zuggtmoy. I'd also consider whether the horseman were on the left (their right) with the pikemen in the center, which better allows them to circle around to the rear of the enemy, and means when they charge, there is no gap between pikemen and Dwarves and Gnomes. And/or, might the knights and horsemen be different units? There might have been knights who accompanied the elves or else knights from Verbobonc that arrive in the rear. But very well done!
Before the first battle the 24k-30k evil troops came from the moat house? Were they posted there waiting for an attack, basically occupying the area surrounding the moat house until some event or plan was started? This is a pretty large contingent of evil humanoids and men, and the moat house served as an HQ for leadership? I'm imagining this large encampment occupying thousands of surrounding acres.
My thinking is that they came up from the Pomarj and were temporarily bivouacked around the Moathouse, because the Temple leaders knew the allied army was coming, but not exactly when.
@@GreyhawkGrognard, I had had the same question as @cuilidh - tens of thousands of troops stationed at that tiny little Moathouse? So you're reply, as far as them being "temporarily bivouacked around the Moathouse," is very helpful :) In fact, this would be a good piece of info to include in that blogpost that I think you said you might be doing on the Battle of Emridy Meadows ;)
@@GreyhawkGrognard IMO they would have camped at the temple. But.... there may have been other post like the moathouse, others yet to be discovered or taken and used by the forces of good immediately. From thes outpost 1000 troops may have been drawn from each.
"From the direction of the moat house" would be a better descriptor I believe. The horde from the Suss forest could have stopped in the area to organize and accept reinforcements before moving to crush the forces of good.
I like this. I use Emridy Meadows as a tragic tale told in Hommlet, where there was clearly a great victory but almost everyone there lost kin in the battle and there's never a dry eye in the Welcome Wench when the local minstrels play "The Meadows Are Red, Mama, Mama". This leads to village council being split on what to do about the findings at the Moathouse, with one faction (the miller, the elder, and Elmo's pa being the most skeptical) reluctant to engage without more proof, in denial that there could be a re-emergence... what did their loved ones die for if the Temple wasn't truly defeated? etc. Further, the Waldgraf of Ostverk never recovered his place in the counsels of the wise of Veluna, once they blamed him for not halting the original Temple incursion when it was in the "annoying brigands" phase. That upstart in Verbobonc has taken Ostverk's rightful place, and even counts Hommlet as in Verbobonc's influence. It's just not right: see, here's a marked up map from his granddaddy's time that shows Hommlet as in Ostverk's domains, with the Canon's own seal upon it, see? "I lost two boys at Emridy Meadows, too, my two eldest, don't talk to me of sacrifice..." Oops. Got caught up in the intrigue. Emridy Meadows is interesting to me not necessarily because of what happened, but because of the repercussions to the lives, and people's attitudes toward it.
@@GreyhawkGrognard I know you're not a fan of Living Greyhawk, but it almost singlehandedly got me back into playing. I lived in IL so I was the Viscounty of Verbobonc. I used Emridy Meadows as backstory for my haughty elven Knight of Corellon. He was fairly bitter about losing the love of his life at the battle and had it color his reactions and relationships with the humans of the Viscounty. Really enjoying the channel, btw.
I've always been fascinated by The Battle of Emridy Meadows, but the description of how battle played out makes no sense. How do the ogre, orcs and gnolls just "thrust aside" the dwarven and gnome units? How does the body of evil men get into a postion to where the good line can pivot and catch them in the rear when only the humanoids are described as pushing through the good line? How do you pivot your entire line when you are being engaged along that line? I look forward to see how you model this scenario w/ your wargame rules. I don't really see how any ruleset can get close to recreating this result without some very specific scenario conditions.
Sorry my diagram wasn't good enough at showing how things moved. I think the key is to remember that the Righteous Host had a plan. The orcs charged at the elven units, while the dwarves and gnomes and elves kept falling back, pivoting counter-clockwise around the center. The "thrust aside" was a ruse. They kept retreating, and the humanoids kept following, until they were the ones that were trapped in the pocket. Then the elves come out of the woods and the horse pikemen strike at the humanoid rear.
Great video covering the original cannon of this epic Greyhawk event. I did a study of this several years ago for my Cults of Greyhawk campaign on World Anvil and placed Emridy Meadows just east of Penwick. The cannon from over the years from various sources are vague and doesnt pin down Emerdy Meadows location. Based on the general writing of the original material it was written more of a narrative story of historic events. Not an exact essay. When the authors of the Living Greyhawk campaign for the Verbobonc area had to tackle this. They saw the same problem. They added the Fens of Tor and Emridy's Run and the village of Penwick. But they never did pinpoint the exact locations of House Asbury or Asbury Meadows. Because none if made exact sense. I had the same problem trying to pour through all this information and placing it on my eastern map of the viscounty. So I decided that Emridy Meadows is just east of Penwick. On the west side of the Fens of Tor. BTW, the Fens of Tor is a natural barrier to mass troops movements. The Moathouse is too small to stage such a large army. Also, if the TOEE forces were staged in Hammlet, that village would have been destroyed since it was only a mile or so from the Moathouse. The TOEE forces would take up a mile or more of land just to camp. Hammlet is right there. The TOEE force would have to have been formed in Nulb and march from there. Cross the river and skirt the Fens of Tor then head north.
Thanks for covering the Battle of Emridy Meadows. I've never really been able to make heads or tails out of it. I also think your estimates of 10k Righteous Host and 30k Elemental Evil Host is a fair estimate. I do think you have Hommlet/Nulb/Moathouse/Temple as being 1 hex too far south (I could be wrong).
Always seemed that Emridy was inspired by Cannae (where Hannibal encircled and annihilated a larger Roman host). Not exactly spelled out in the folio, but the goodies evidently used deception to lure the humanoids into a premature attack.
The map and the description don’t mesh. With the Velverdyva securing the human flank and the gnomes/dwarves on the left, the army had to be moving west. The battlefield also has to be close enough to the Gnarley for elves to be able to emerge and attack. Moving south from where the Att meets the Velverdyva fits that part, but that is much further than “several leagues” downstream from Verbobonc.
There are two big issues that cause a lot of confusion with T1, T1-4. First, The writing started in the late mid 70s before the published WoG was a thing, and Gary was using his home campaign map to write. Second, Gary stole big chunks of his original ToEE plot and used them for the GD series. That's why the geography has so many issues and you still have Lolth mentioned and a 4th dungeon level that is designed to look like a spider. There really isn't a 'right' answer for a lot of these things because of the inconsistencies, but I usually use Joe's ideas when filling in the gaps.
Love your content. Enjoy your videos. Thank you for sustaining quality content vs the bash hype. I've no time or interest in drama and unsubscribe from the hype train. Great content is the point, and keeps me loyal.
the second battle sounds to me like the reserves sent from the moat house. It is just a moat house, not many troops. I think at the toee in its heyday would have had humanoids camped all around the outside of the walls, 10s of thousands, while inside the walls were higher lvl human guardsmen, and only seasoned troops and clerics inside, number but in the hundreds, This last group are all that were in the siege, prepared to last years, but the host was too strong and broke into the temple but I have only played thi9s game for 45 years and was a combat soldier with a history degree for 20,, IGNORE ME nice coverage byw
It is impossible to tell the actual number of combatants but you might be overestimating the number of the good forces. Furyondy, which is the largest of the allies, only had a standing army of a few thousand though they could raise thousands more if they mobilized nobles and militia but they aren't going to send their full army. The demi-humans were fairly small in number across the area and though they were elite forces their strength wasn't in numbers. Even the Great Kingdom, the most populous nation, in Greyhawk setting, could raise an army of 50,000 - 60,000 max. Greyhawk not only was inspired by medieval Europe but so were the relatively low population numbers. The Battle of Hastings in 1066 didn't have large numbers of combatants but it shaped hundreds of years of history showing numbers are relative.
Great video! Thank you for all the hard work! Now, not to be a nitpicker, but- On day 2, I think the forces of Good ended up with their back to the river while their reinforcements hit the Evil forces in the rear. Evil pressed forward because they thought they had Good cornered. Instead, they ended up surrounded when the knights and elves emerged. The maneuver you propose, where the Good and Evil forces basically switch places, seems very unlikely to me.
I have to say I strongly disagree with your positioning of the battle. It says it took place several leagues BELOW (I assume south) of Verbobonc, so... somewhere just below the B in VerBobonc. If we want to be charitable and so on, we might say, south east, or just below the B or O in VerboBOnc, on the edge of the Kron Hills. It's hard to see how it could be to the east, or NORTH east of Verbobonc as you place it... ABOVE Verbobonc. More than that, your placing of the battle movements seems... exaggerated... You show the battle covering half an hex or more over the course of the second day. It's hard to imagine the second day being more than just a few miles from the first. How long did the "screening, scouting, skirmishing" of the first day take? An hour in the morning? The whole morning? Most of the day? The armies stopped during the night, and the next day they might be move, what? 2? 4 miles from where they were in the first day? You also show the battle taking place on the second day and covering... half a hex? More (it seems more)? 15 miles? 20 miles? No. In my opinion: the battle took place on a hex due south or south east of Verbobonc, on the edge of the Kron Hillls. The first day consisted of smaller skirmishes etc... about, at maximum, some 5 miles away from the battle proper on the second day. The entire battle was probably fought over a front of less than a mile, and the river was probably an affluent of the Ververdyva. Note that there are HUGE discrepancies in the location of Hommlet, Nulb, etc... whether you're talking of WoG Boxed Set, ToEE, Folio, etc... so you might as well place it wherever you want it, between half a hex and one full hex below the letters BOBO in VerBOBOnc on Darlene's map. And the actual battle probably did not cover more than a tenth, let's be generous and say an eighth, of a hex. The temple itself is somewhere between the C in VerbobonC, and just slightly due south east of that. Of course, you may pick whatever suits you and your group. I would make a few extra points: one, few battles in the middle ages wandered over so big an area, look at maps of most of these battles, Bouvines, Agincourt, etc... and you'll see troops spread out across one km, or one mile, one and a half, rarely more; the second thing I would add is that the super low density population of the Flanaess defies the imagination: Hommlet and Nulb are shown to be between 10 and 30 miles distant from each other, depending on the source. I would be hard pressed to find anyeuropean medieval area where you couldn't find a dozen villages over the same distance, especially considering this is the central Flanaess, one of the more settled areas of the gaming world. Individual DMs have to adjust their own Greyhawk to their sense of realism (or pseudo realism) and suspension of disbelief.
@@GreyhawkGrognard interesting, never thought about it that way, just goes to show that not being a native english speaker creates different assumptions, LOL. I would still prefer a more southern location because it moves the temple to less "settled" areas, and for the same reasons of pop. density problems in Greyhawk that always bothered me.
I agree, the cannon from over the years from various sources are vague and doesnt pin down Emerdy Meadows. I would agree that the meadows is further south.
Iuz and his priesthood are chaotic evil but the majority of his force is lawful evil orcs. Tsuggmoy is Iuz's lover. She kinda runs the Temple. Under the subtle malign influence of Tharizdun who cares not for alignment as we understand it. Chaotics use lawfuls because they make better soldiers ...though not in the case of Emirdy Meadows apparently... My question is how was the enemy force assembled?..where did they come from pre Moat House? The area is surrounded mostly by good aligned or neutral states. Did they march up all the way through the Suss/Gnarley Forest from The Pomarge? They would have had to skirt past Celene...this seems unlikely to me. I love this episode.
I love the fact that it has such a prosaic name. Instead of something like "The Battle Of The Heavens Crashing Into The Hells On The Plains Of Howling Demons" it's "The Battle Of Emridy Meadows."
One thing I thought of after the video was already complete. The Horde must have come mostly from the Pomarj, via the Suss Forest. Losing 20k or so troops would have crippled any sort of plan the leaders of the Pomarj had for conquest, but after a generation passed, they had rebuilt their strength. And that's exactly when Turrosh Mak began his own campaign to build an empire. The timing works out perfectly.
Also, I never played any of the D&D computer games, including the Temple of Elemental Evil game. Until they come out with something that is explicitly part of the canonical continuity, I'm solely interested in the print material.
i would agree, but the gnolls Could have come from the Abyss.... or the hills, but by modern dnd, right out of the abyss
Interesting overview. Just a nitpick about who does what. Likely the pike doesn't move - because pike are very bad at moving any direction but forward and event that slowly. The description says the cavalry is the force that encircles from the west, while elves encircle from the east. That makes the pike the nave of the envelopment, the immovable lynchpin around which everything else rotates, which very much makes sense. Gygax was a miniatures wargamer, so he'd have a decent grasp of these things.
Agreed, but the pike would at least need to pivot, or else the Horde would be attacking their rear. I don't see any mention of squares, but I suppose that's possible. I would more likely see that as a tactic used by Perrenlander mercenary pikemen.
Your explanation of the pincer movement is spot on with the humanoids being allowed to run through the demi-humans like a linebacker.
I really enjoyed your explanation of the battle. It's very viable and makes sense. That was one of my favorite parts of the gazateer. 😁 Emridy Meadow is in the TOEE video game as an exploration point with undead and a hill giant and his bear pet!
On the one hand, I agree it feels like a climactic battle like this should involve a large number of troops, on the other hand, given the maps we have of the moat house and the temple, neither seems capable of hosting tens of thousands of troops, or even thousands of troops, frankly. The moat house feels like it would be crowded even with numbers just in the hundreds. If large armies were summoned to either the temple or the moat house, most of the troops would have had to encamp in a rather large area surrounding either facility. It would be quite a logistical feat to marshal them into battle given how widely dispersed their encampments would have to be for numbers that large (tens of thousands). Given how notoriously difficult it is to marshal evil humanoids, especially chaotic evil ones, to do much of anything, that again tends to suggest lower numbers. But then the lure of what a victory might bring to the side of evil might be enough to hold the attention of even the chaotic evil troops long enough to get to the battlefield in good order. So there are strong arguments for both larger numbers and smaller numbers. Really hard to know!
I've commented in one of your earlier videos that it's because of videos like this is why I absolutely love your channel. This video just reenforces my earlier comment. Sir, this video is one that I have long wanted to see done discussing this very topic. Your commentary is just so damn good that I can't help but want to consider it as canon in the history of the world of Greyhawk. As for your theory of why the temple stopped using lawful evil creatures ( orcs, goblins, and hobgoblins, etc.) is not only because of the humanoids hatred of their racial enemies which caused the hoard of evil creatures and men to be destroyed by the forces of good, but also due to the fact that the temple is dedicated to the forces of chaotic evil and demons in particular ( remember, Tzuggtmoy/ Zuggtmoy is a very powerful demonic power herself) so I believe, and this is just my own theory mind you, that the lawful evil creatures were also to be used as sacrifices to the demoness and the forces of chaotic evil, thus strengthening chaotic evils power and influence, ala the blood war. Great video as always my friend. 👏👏👏
I would agree that the Second Battle was either directly outside the temple, or close by. It was just the bottom rung troops (kobolds and goblins) that were sent to basically keep the good guys busy while the important players escaped.
This is some high quality nerding. Bravo!
I got very interested in this battle after buying the Battlesystem boxed set. My father was military, as were my grandfathers and two uncles, so I grew up steeped in military history books, from the ancient world to the Cold War. I ended up doing three different research papers on the Punic Wars and Hannibal Barca, so I was very aware of ancient/medieval battle tactics.
I felt like Gygax was trying to emulate the battle of Cannae with Emridy Meadows, where Hannibal inflicted the worst defeat Rome ever experienced by using a double envelopment (pincers move) and wrecked an army 2-3 times his army's size. The bulk of his army were medium infantry from Spain and Gaul, their intention to keep the Roman legions occupied while his pikemen moved into position on the flanks. His African pikemen, highly trained in phalanx formation, moved down alongside the Roman army, and did indeed pivot on each side, both rotating 90 degrees to end up striking the Romans from 3 sides. Hannibal's cavalry completed the envelopment by driving off the inferior Roman cavalry and striking the Romans from behind. It was a slaughter, much like that inflicted on the Horde of Elemental Evil.
The Temple of Elemental Evil software game did Emridy Meadows atmosphere very well.
Paul Stormberg ran the Siege of the Moat House at Gary Con. Very fun. Would be cool to see a campaign of the full battle covering the full conflict and personalities.
I saw it, but didn't get a chance to play. Looked amazing - the model of the Moathouse in particular was super well done!
Good analysis. I would say that the pikemen formed square (well-trained and disciplined pikemen historically could and did manage to change front in a battle, usually when given a small space. And that space occurred fairly frequently when a non-pike opponent faced them. Most troops without matching pikes don't like to impale themselves on pikes, and historically, troops often shifted to their right, keeping their shields nearer the pikes. If the Dwarves and Gnomes fell back toward the river while shifting to their right, that would keep them in contact with their allies, turning the line at a right angle. Then, as the Temple army advanced and rotated to their left, this turned their backs to the forest, leading to the forces of the Elves to be able to hit them from behind. When hit hard from behind, and not given time to react and "form square", even good troops can break. Panic is contagious in an army, and once the front line troops hear the battle in their rear, they lose cohesion, and when it's a mixed force of Kobolds, Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, Ogres, evil Men, etc. who may have their own reasons to mistrust their "allies", they may even end up fighting amongst themselves in an attempt to escape. Historically, once an army breaks and runs, that's when the slaughter begins. Enjoyed the video, and I'm looking forward to your next. 🙂
The problem is that the pikemen are said to be on the allied right, which is right along the river. They'd have to be in the center in order to form the pivot-point of the allied line.
Yeah, in most cases the pikes would have been in the center. Change that one thing, and it will still work. 🙂@@GreyhawkGrognard
@@GreyhawkGrognard reports can be false or mistaken. Look at russia today
Interesting that there was no mention in the short write-up of any major NPCs. You'd think that there would have to be powerful Magic-Users and/or Clerics, if they are placing wards to entrap Zuggtmoy.
I'd also consider whether the horseman were on the left (their right) with the pikemen in the center, which better allows them to circle around to the rear of the enemy, and means when they charge, there is no gap between pikemen and Dwarves and Gnomes. And/or, might the knights and horsemen be different units? There might have been knights who accompanied the elves or else knights from Verbobonc that arrive in the rear.
But very well done!
There was Prince Trommel, of course. And one member of the Circle of Eight, Serten, was slain during the battle.
Before the first battle the 24k-30k evil troops came from the moat house? Were they posted there waiting for an attack, basically occupying the area surrounding the moat house until some event or plan was started? This is a pretty large contingent of evil humanoids and men, and the moat house served as an HQ for leadership? I'm imagining this large encampment occupying thousands of surrounding acres.
My thinking is that they came up from the Pomarj and were temporarily bivouacked around the Moathouse, because the Temple leaders knew the allied army was coming, but not exactly when.
@@GreyhawkGrognard, I had had the same question as @cuilidh - tens of thousands of troops stationed at that tiny little Moathouse? So you're reply, as far as them being "temporarily bivouacked around the Moathouse," is very helpful :) In fact, this would be a good piece of info to include in that blogpost that I think you said you might be doing on the Battle of Emridy Meadows ;)
my point as well, they were surely at the temple, camped outside the walls, even felling much of the nearby forest
@@GreyhawkGrognard IMO they would have camped at the temple. But.... there may have been other post like the moathouse, others yet to be discovered or taken and used by the forces of good immediately. From thes outpost 1000 troops may have been drawn from each.
30,000 horde in the moathouse. must be some missing levels!
Not in it. Encamped around it. 🙂
darn, thought might find a new dungeon to explore@@GreyhawkGrognard
@@GreyhawkGrognard last comment: you have never seen 30000 soldiers encamped and it shows
"From the direction of the moat house" would be a better descriptor I believe.
The horde from the Suss forest could have stopped in the area to organize and accept reinforcements before moving to crush the forces of good.
I like this.
I use Emridy Meadows as a tragic tale told in Hommlet, where there was clearly a great victory but almost everyone there lost kin in the battle and there's never a dry eye in the Welcome Wench when the local minstrels play "The Meadows Are Red, Mama, Mama". This leads to village council being split on what to do about the findings at the Moathouse, with one faction (the miller, the elder, and Elmo's pa being the most skeptical) reluctant to engage without more proof, in denial that there could be a re-emergence... what did their loved ones die for if the Temple wasn't truly defeated? etc.
Further, the Waldgraf of Ostverk never recovered his place in the counsels of the wise of Veluna, once they blamed him for not halting the original Temple incursion when it was in the "annoying brigands" phase. That upstart in Verbobonc has taken Ostverk's rightful place, and even counts Hommlet as in Verbobonc's influence. It's just not right: see, here's a marked up map from his granddaddy's time that shows Hommlet as in Ostverk's domains, with the Canon's own seal upon it, see? "I lost two boys at Emridy Meadows, too, my two eldest, don't talk to me of sacrifice..."
Oops. Got caught up in the intrigue. Emridy Meadows is interesting to me not necessarily because of what happened, but because of the repercussions to the lives, and people's attitudes toward it.
I love that. Thanks!
@@GreyhawkGrognard I know you're not a fan of Living Greyhawk, but it almost singlehandedly got me back into playing. I lived in IL so I was the Viscounty of Verbobonc. I used Emridy Meadows as backstory for my haughty elven Knight of Corellon. He was fairly bitter about losing the love of his life at the battle and had it color his reactions and relationships with the humans of the Viscounty. Really enjoying the channel, btw.
I've always been fascinated by The Battle of Emridy Meadows, but the description of how battle played out makes no sense. How do the ogre, orcs and gnolls just "thrust aside" the dwarven and gnome units? How does the body of evil men get into a postion to where the good line can pivot and catch them in the rear when only the humanoids are described as pushing through the good line? How do you pivot your entire line when you are being engaged along that line?
I look forward to see how you model this scenario w/ your wargame rules. I don't really see how any ruleset can get close to recreating this result without some very specific scenario conditions.
Sorry my diagram wasn't good enough at showing how things moved. I think the key is to remember that the Righteous Host had a plan. The orcs charged at the elven units, while the dwarves and gnomes and elves kept falling back, pivoting counter-clockwise around the center. The "thrust aside" was a ruse. They kept retreating, and the humanoids kept following, until they were the ones that were trapped in the pocket. Then the elves come out of the woods and the horse
pikemen strike at the humanoid rear.
Great video covering the original cannon of this epic Greyhawk event. I did a study of this several years ago for my Cults of Greyhawk campaign on World Anvil and placed Emridy Meadows just east of Penwick. The cannon from over the years from various sources are vague and doesnt pin down Emerdy Meadows location. Based on the general writing of the original material it was written more of a narrative story of historic events. Not an exact essay. When the authors of the Living Greyhawk campaign for the Verbobonc area had to tackle this. They saw the same problem. They added the Fens of Tor and Emridy's Run and the village of Penwick. But they never did pinpoint the exact locations of House Asbury or Asbury Meadows. Because none if made exact sense. I had the same problem trying to pour through all this information and placing it on my eastern map of the viscounty. So I decided that Emridy Meadows is just east of Penwick. On the west side of the Fens of Tor. BTW, the Fens of Tor is a natural barrier to mass troops movements. The Moathouse is too small to stage such a large army. Also, if the TOEE forces were staged in Hammlet, that village would have been destroyed since it was only a mile or so from the Moathouse. The TOEE forces would take up a mile or more of land just to camp. Hammlet is right there. The TOEE force would have to have been formed in Nulb and march from there. Cross the river and skirt the Fens of Tor then head north.
Thanks for covering the Battle of Emridy Meadows. I've never really been able to make heads or tails out of it. I also think your estimates of 10k Righteous Host and 30k Elemental Evil Host is a fair estimate. I do think you have Hommlet/Nulb/Moathouse/Temple as being 1 hex too far south (I could be wrong).
Please let me know when you're going to run this as a war game! I want in on that one!
I'm running two games at Founders & Legends, but this one will either be later this year or next year, depending on how quickly I can paint minis.
@@GreyhawkGrognard how can I sign up for them?
@@hamishshaw4907 I usually post updates of games I'm running at conventions on social media, especially Facebook.
Always seemed that Emridy was inspired by Cannae (where Hannibal encircled and annihilated a larger Roman host). Not exactly spelled out in the folio, but the goodies evidently used deception to lure the humanoids into a premature attack.
The map and the description don’t mesh. With the Velverdyva securing the human flank and the gnomes/dwarves on the left, the army had to be moving west. The battlefield also has to be close enough to the Gnarley for elves to be able to emerge and attack. Moving south from where the Att meets the Velverdyva fits that part, but that is much further than “several leagues” downstream from Verbobonc.
Amazing video. We need a mod for Total War Medieval for this battle!
There are two big issues that cause a lot of confusion with T1, T1-4. First, The writing started in the late mid 70s before the published WoG was a thing, and Gary was using his home campaign map to write. Second, Gary stole big chunks of his original ToEE plot and used them for the GD series. That's why the geography has so many issues and you still have Lolth mentioned and a 4th dungeon level that is designed to look like a spider. There really isn't a 'right' answer for a lot of these things because of the inconsistencies, but I usually use Joe's ideas when filling in the gaps.
I assumed as you do, the followup battle was actually at the Temple and thats when it got sealed. Thats when the Nine turn up.
Great content , keep it up! This is exactly how my mind works when I visualize the events transpiring in my stories or some other stories!
Love your content. Enjoy your videos. Thank you for sustaining quality content vs the bash hype. I've no time or interest in drama and unsubscribe from the hype train. Great content is the point, and keeps me loyal.
Thanks!
the second battle sounds to me like the reserves sent from the moat house. It is just a moat house, not many troops. I think at the toee in its heyday would have had humanoids camped all around the outside of the walls, 10s of thousands, while inside the walls were higher lvl human guardsmen, and only seasoned troops and clerics inside, number but in the hundreds, This last group are all that were in the siege, prepared to last years, but the host was too strong and broke into the temple
but I have only played thi9s game for 45 years and was a combat soldier with a history degree for 20,, IGNORE ME
nice coverage byw
Below the city may mean below on the river right?
Yes, that's how I read it. "Below" as in "downriver", in the same way that Quebec is "below" Montreal, or Memphis is "below" Saint Louis.
It is impossible to tell the actual number of combatants but you might be overestimating the number of the good forces. Furyondy, which is the largest of the allies, only had a standing army of a few thousand though they could raise thousands more if they mobilized nobles and militia but they aren't going to send their full army. The demi-humans were fairly small in number across the area and though they were elite forces their strength wasn't in numbers.
Even the Great Kingdom, the most populous nation, in Greyhawk setting, could raise an army of 50,000 - 60,000 max. Greyhawk not only was inspired by medieval Europe but so were the relatively low population numbers. The Battle of Hastings in 1066 didn't have large numbers of combatants but it shaped hundreds of years of history showing numbers are relative.
Great video! Thank you for all the hard work! Now, not to be a nitpicker, but- On day 2, I think the forces of Good ended up with their back to the river while their reinforcements hit the Evil forces in the rear. Evil pressed forward because they thought they had Good cornered. Instead, they ended up surrounded when the knights and elves emerged. The maneuver you propose, where the Good and Evil forces basically switch places, seems very unlikely to me.
Alas, what I described is the way Gary described it, so that's what I went with.
Is their a book that one may read up on?
On the battle specifically? Nothing beyond the sources noted in the video.
@@GreyhawkGrognard thank you
I have to say I strongly disagree with your positioning of the battle. It says it took place several leagues BELOW (I assume south) of Verbobonc, so... somewhere just below the B in VerBobonc. If we want to be charitable and so on, we might say, south east, or just below the B or O in VerboBOnc, on the edge of the Kron Hills. It's hard to see how it could be to the east, or NORTH east of Verbobonc as you place it... ABOVE Verbobonc.
More than that, your placing of the battle movements seems... exaggerated... You show the battle covering half an hex or more over the course of the second day. It's hard to imagine the second day being more than just a few miles from the first. How long did the "screening, scouting, skirmishing" of the first day take? An hour in the morning? The whole morning? Most of the day? The armies stopped during the night, and the next day they might be move, what? 2? 4 miles from where they were in the first day?
You also show the battle taking place on the second day and covering... half a hex? More (it seems more)? 15 miles? 20 miles? No.
In my opinion: the battle took place on a hex due south or south east of Verbobonc, on the edge of the Kron Hillls. The first day consisted of smaller skirmishes etc... about, at maximum, some 5 miles away from the battle proper on the second day. The entire battle was probably fought over a front of less than a mile, and the river was probably an affluent of the Ververdyva.
Note that there are HUGE discrepancies in the location of Hommlet, Nulb, etc... whether you're talking of WoG Boxed Set, ToEE, Folio, etc... so you might as well place it wherever you want it, between half a hex and one full hex below the letters BOBO in VerBOBOnc on Darlene's map. And the actual battle probably did not cover more than a tenth, let's be generous and say an eighth, of a hex.
The temple itself is somewhere between the C in VerbobonC, and just slightly due south east of that. Of course, you may pick whatever suits you and your group.
I would make a few extra points: one, few battles in the middle ages wandered over so big an area, look at maps of most of these battles, Bouvines, Agincourt, etc... and you'll see troops spread out across one km, or one mile, one and a half, rarely more; the second thing I would add is that the super low density population of the Flanaess defies the imagination: Hommlet and Nulb are shown to be between 10 and 30 miles distant from each other, depending on the source. I would be hard pressed to find anyeuropean medieval area where you couldn't find a dozen villages over the same distance, especially considering this is the central Flanaess, one of the more settled areas of the gaming world.
Individual DMs have to adjust their own Greyhawk to their sense of realism (or pseudo realism) and suspension of disbelief.
"Below" in this sense meaning "downriver" in the same way that Memphis is below Saint Louis.
@@GreyhawkGrognard interesting, never thought about it that way, just goes to show that not being a native english speaker creates different assumptions, LOL. I would still prefer a more southern location because it moves the temple to less "settled" areas, and for the same reasons of pop. density problems in Greyhawk that always bothered me.
I agree, the cannon from over the years from various sources are vague and doesnt pin down Emerdy Meadows. I would agree that the meadows is further south.
I think the first time I came across it it properly was in the PC game Temple of Elemental Evil (boy, do I have issues with that game).
There is actually a 4e dungeon magazine adventure about that battle
Love the shirt
I love this more than beer.......
Woah! Let's not lose our heads...
Iuz and his priesthood are chaotic evil but the majority of his force is lawful evil orcs. Tsuggmoy is Iuz's lover. She kinda runs the Temple. Under the subtle malign influence of Tharizdun who cares not for alignment as we understand it. Chaotics use lawfuls because they make better soldiers ...though not in the case of Emirdy Meadows apparently... My question is how was the enemy force assembled?..where did they come from pre Moat House? The area is surrounded mostly by good aligned or neutral states. Did they march up all the way through the Suss/Gnarley Forest from The Pomarge? They would have had to skirt past Celene...this seems unlikely to me. I love this episode.
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Excellent video! Note that orcs are CE in 5e and goblins are NE!