What if Rach had a Bösendorfer Imperial? | Prelude in C-sharp minor
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ต.ค. 2014
- What if Rachmaninoff had composed his famous Prelude in C-sharp minor on a Bösendorfer Imperial? Might he have employed the extra bass notes?
All apologies to Maestro, but we thought this would be a fun way to share a piano we are passionate about. This pre-owned Bösendorfer model 290, better known as the Imperial, arrived from the factory in Vienna to the US in 1977. This piano was enjoyed in a loving home of music patrons until this year.
Two years ago, PianoWorks (Authorized Bösendorfer dealer & repair center) was hired to restring and refurbish this instrument. It is now again ready to perform. SOLD.
www.pianoworks.com/manufacture...
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Rachmaninoff is a great choice to showcase a Bosendorfer concert grand. These pianos are unrivaled! Thanks for tackling such a great piece for our enjoyment!
The introductory chords and the opening theme of Rach's second concerto sound awesome with the extra notes on a Bosendorfer imperial.
Imagine what Bach would do with an Imperial...
he most certainly would sell it , buy kawai CA99 electric piano and a lot of beer for the remaining cash
He became bi- (8
He would definitely come Bach to school
Since he composed a lot of organ pieces he already had those extra keys
haha Wasn't the piano designed specifically to accommodate Bach transcriptions? Careful, you might create a time paradox!
I love the sound of the octave with the extra low bass. Sounds sinister.
This guy has a good quality sound and knows how to create a balance between the black keys and everything else.
I thank you and my pianist thanks you.
Bösendorfer actually have acquired piano rolls of Rach playing his pieces and are currently developing a Rachmaninoff player piano, I had a member of the team demonstrate an Imperial in Vienna by playing this piece and he then disclosed this, not sure if he was supposed to! Great playing, stunning instrument!
Wayne Stahnke actually made some really nice roll conversions back when he was doing early work on the Disklavier. I don't know what became of the midis, but you can find recordings of the pieces on TH-cam. They may actually have been recorded on an Imperial. I know it was a Bösendorfer 290, but I don't know the history of the company well enough to know for sure if every 290 is an Imperial.
I hope the rolls weren't lost in the Bösendorfer fire :(
I approve of this if only they made those in my day
They did. The piano was designed at the request of one of your contemporaries...Ferruccio Busoni. The story goes that he approached Bösendorfer, requesting a grand that went down to low C, or C0...same as an organ. With the success of the Imperial's design, he created piano transcriptions of some of Bach's most famous works including organ pieces. The collected works were published in 1916, right before one of your most prolific creative periods. Not widely available due to regionalism and wars in Europe, the Imperial did manage to inspire numerous compositions from other great composers. They certainly remained rare in the US until the 1960's and 1970's when they began to challange Steinway's monoculture along with Baldwin.
Wow! Bravo for the extra bass keys. You are fantastic!
I love my Bösendorfer 170. The resonance is unbeatable.
Absolute brilliant playing on this magnificent instrument. I once had lessons from a teacher who had a double keyboard/manual Bosendorfer instrument; one full compass keyboard, the other a 5 octave keyboard behind the main one.
This guy plays well, he is just advertising a piano for sale. I would be more critical if he is trying out for the Chopin Competition or for a paid recital at the Carnegie Hall. Give me a break, those extra notes on the bosi, sound nice and thunderous...Wander what the Russian composer think about them.
I think he can play at the Carnegie
I think the first Imperials were built in the early 19 teens and Rachmaninoff lived into the early 1940's so there's a chance he could've played one. I have no idea when the first ones made it over here, and I don't think Sergi toured Europe much once he moved to the US so who knows... Would be super cool if there was a record somewhere though!
Amazing and Wonderful !!
Thank you for this video! I've always wanted to play that piece on a Bosen Imperial with the extra low notes, but I've never had such an opportunity, and I was really wondering what it could sound like. Well, the result is quite interesting, even maybe a little too "massive". It's a pity you didn't play the last section, it should sound absolutely fantastic! :)
Stunning!
Intensely beautiful and deep !
Hell yes he'd use the extra keys. They're like a pipe organ with 32' pipes...you use them!
Nice piano ! The best piano in the world !
Ya-hoo!! It's so helpful for me to hear how people play their stuff... I'm glad you exercised your freedom, gave me some new input on how to play this. Boy! It gets pretty exciting, doesn't it??
You gave me the video I was for for so long!!!!!! The black base motes of the Imperial Grand 👌👌👌👌👌💯 I feel it embodies strength and beauty like no other instrument! Well, there is the organ though, but that's the organ. Can't wait to play an Imperial one day.
Steinway + Bosendorfer = *_STEINDORFER_*
Never.
Bösenway
@@somerandomdragon558 noouuuuu
@@francesco6008 Meep?
Bösteindorferwayamahazioli & sons
Why didn't he play the last part??
Safety hazard! lol
@@BrassicaRappa lol
Ha ha ha this extra c# sounds naughty ! I love it !
Listen to the chaconne busoni on a bosen, that’s baddy !!
Very nicely played! One I also play.
Nice job. Bosendorfer Imperial's dynamic range is very good, from watery and soft to fiery and hard! Next, play Ludovico Einaudi or Yiruma on the Imperial.
I want one of these!
Pathetic comments in a magnific piano.
Bravo! Beautifully recorded and played. (Who is the pianist here?)
Sounds so rich... i mean rach
If you want to hear Rach on a Bosendorfer listen to Valentina Lisitsa. She says you don't have to use the black keys - the strings add to the overall sound of the piano.
that is some nice bass. damn, boy! HE THICC!!!
he be T H I C C
_Davie504 entered the chat_
Bosendorfer pianos make my hairs on my arms stand up.
My favorite brand is Steinway, but I have to agree that dark compositions like this prelude sounds much cooler on a Bosendorfer.
I agree. If I was wealthy enough, I’d buy both a Steinway and a Bosendorfer!
Russian composers, especially Rachmaninov, have always had a fondness for basso profundo (see: Vespers / All Night Vigil). This demonstration illustrates the utility of those low notes and why they don't have to be limited to a pipe organ. It sounds pretty cool.
Nice excerpt.
This makes me want to hear what Rachmaninoff's prelude in G minor would sound like on a Bosendorfer Imperial.
There's one, if you watch Valentina lisitsa concert in 2012 😮
The grandpiano is great. As I can hear, A flat 0, G flat 0 sound quite pleasant; but C sharp 0 is heard as a split sound. But in octave with C sharp 1 it is OK.
z131720 it may be different in person.
Yes, something suspect about the C sharp 0 but still very impressive sound.
my dream piano
Bosendorfer C290 Imperial Grand. The only one with 96 keys.
Magical and incredible sound.
The best piano in the world.
Do i play the wrong edition or he played some oopsie during the agitato
NεkkRosε he definitely missed some notes.
Idil Biret recorded Rachmaninov's complete solo piano works on a Bosendorfer. The piano concertos were on Steinway D.
Imagine what Rachmaninoff, Mozart and JS Bach would have composed if they had access to the Bösendorfer 290 Imperial.
Mozart wouldn't do much, or anything: that was not his way of thinking and making music. Rachmaninoff actually had access to it, since the first piano with extra notes were commissioned by Liszt himself to Mr. Bösendorfer. You can see extra notes in some of his Hungarian Rhapsodies (I remember now the G#0 in the first part of No. 2).
Why Rachmaninoff didn't wrote for it, no one knows. Perhaps it's because it's not practical. It can complicate things: not every pianist, theater or concert hall has one to play it on. It is a "rare instrument" (not so rare but you get the idea) and maybe he thought it's better to write music for the standard piano, it's widely accesible and anyone can play it. As I can see from all the greatest composers, they write music for what they have at the moment, not to an ideal that they won't know if it could ever be played (for example, see the weird instrumentation of Bach's Brandenburg concertos, he wrote it that way because it was what he had at the time he wrote it).
Liszt, Busoni, Debussy, Ravel, Bartók wrote for the Imperial, and if you check it out, all of them wrote just one or two notes from the extra keys and as an ossia. They understood that it could complicate the making of music.
Greetings my friend.
@@tebanll Thanks!
@@jamesthewineguy it’s interesting what comes to mind when reading about this. Your comment made me think a lot of things. I am a composer myself and yeah, I’ve seen the instrument once in my country... but write to it? When will I be able to play that instrument? Maybe never, so nah, let it be.
I’d like to have one myself at home and do what Zimmerman does: carry it with you and play it everywhere. That’ll do!
@@tebanll Do you write to piano and orchestra or mainly for piano?
@@jamesthewineguy I write mostly for piano since it’s my instrument, I’m a professional pianist so I can show the music on it myself and not depend on anyone for now. But I’ve also written a piano concerto and some music for orchestra and chamber music.
I appreciate your interest, a lot.
Greetings my friend!
Errr...the first Bösendorfer Imperial with 97 keys was built 1900.
Rachmaninov was born 1873 and died 1943...Who knows?
Best piano in the world ever.
He became Bi- (8
"Dear Mr. Steinway,
I am very happy to have the opportunity of using your pianos for my concerts because I consider them to be perfect in every way.
Faithfully yours,
Sergei Rachmaninoff"
nice try, bosendorfer
So sometime in the early part of the last century, Rachmaninoff wrote a personal letter to Steinway thanking him for providing him with several world class piano for his American concert tour? What exactly does that prove?
Yet if you read the score, you'll see the left hand drops out at times for no apparent reason other than he's run out of notes... suggesting he had the Imperial in mind...
nthu101 He needed money...
nthu101 z
"There are two important things that I will take with me to my trip to the United States: one is my wife Natalia, and the other my piano Blüthner"
Sergei Rachmaninoff 1910
Where is the rest of the piece?
What is Scott Joplin had a Bösendorfer?
2:04 he accidentally hit the C0 not the C#0
LOL
He's a genius
power, it is
Where's the best part??
lol C0 down the chugging away at like...what would that be, 16Hz?! When you're tuning it, can you hear the beats anymore when you play it with other notes, or do you just get out your stopwatch and do your best to count out the vibrations like when you're taking a pulse! lol
You would lightly hold your finger down on C0 and tune it to C1. If you don’t understand I can go into more detail
@@joeyhuberman Oh cool! So you tune to the harmonic octave?
@@BrassicaRappa 👍
I own a Bosendorfer imperial grand. I tune the extra low notes by putting an accelerometer where the bass strings press down on the bridge . The output from the accelerometer is fed into an oscilloscope. A precision sweep generator triggers the sweep on the scope at the frequency I want to tune the string to. When the wave form is stationary on the oscilloscope screen I know that the string is in tune. The accelerometer detects the actual motion of the string and the bridge instead of trying to hear the sound that the string produces.
by the way... Rach had an American Steinway before wars... so his music was conceived for that kind of instrument
This is all in fun, but Rach had several instruments that he composed on, not just Steinway, so I would not conclude his inspiration came from any one. Certainly his affinity for Blüthner is well documented. A few very famous composers did draw inspiration from the extended compass of the Bösendorfer 290 in their compositions. I have no idea what the maestro might have thought of this interpretation, but I think he might have relished working with an even wider palette.
ma perché h interrotto . che meraviglioso pianoforte. una portaerei. ma difficili da suonare:si dev'essere musicisti completi. grazie per il video
When I remove my headphones I can, not so much hear, but feel the vibrations
Not sure he would have liked it much. This piece is hardly representative of his piano compositions. Oh sure, it does bombast quite well, though I would have a hard time hearing the lush voicing of his op 39.
There are a two recordings by Telarc available with the help of modern technology by Wayne Stahnke which translates Rachmaninoff's historical piano rolls into performances on a modern Bosendorfer 290SE titled "A window in time" .
There is also another created by Zenph Studios which use the historical audio recording as the starting point, creating a live performance on a 1909 Steinway D
Last there are the Ampico recordings played on a modern Estonia, which aren't quite in the class of the previous two.
What all three of these recordings bring us closer to is Rachmaninoff the man and his magnificent ability to bare his soul through his fingers. Regarding these three recordings, no doubt on the Bosendorfer he is stunning but the Steinway more than makes up in every other regard. Think of it as if he was speaking to you.
Why does the last note of the piece sound out of tune?
my casio e-piano sounds more crips on higher notes, other than that the piano is ok.
I'm pretty sure he did!
Hook up a disklavier and you'll find out!
At 1:37 you can actually hear how quite it could sound, despite for the dimensions!
Yes, it is quite quiet.
Looks like Christopher from the Sopranos
No. What if Rach had a Fazioli?
this is how it is played th-cam.com/video/SCm9O2KNEX4/w-d-xo.html
However, this is a great piano. I prefer Bösendörfer to Steinway, but not for all kinds of music.
Rachmaninoff could make a Wurlitzer sound great.
but the reason of being of these added keys is not to be played, but to support the sound of usual keys. That's why they are black, they aren't ment to be played. And you can hear, that except for the AAA flat (the first added black key), it sounds pretty rubbish ;) but the AAA sound pretty good thanks to these keys and thanks to the fact it's not the periphery.
+geuros Took the words out of my mouth.
+geuros The additional notes and strings affect the acoustic design in numerous ways. They do support the sound of the 88-key compass. They also affect the soundboard and bridge design making the notes typically used in 88-key compass more clear with flatter sustain, and therefore, more useful. Historically, the creation of this 97-note scale was at the request of Ferruccio Busoni, brilliant pianist, conductor and composer, so that he might better create piano transcriptions of many of Bach's famous organ pieces. The Bach-Busoni transcriptions are probably his most recognizable legacy. In Bach's original organ works, the organ goes down to low-C. Hence the origin of this collaboration between piano maker and composer.
+geuros+ A few pieces of music actually use some of the extra keys; for example Bartok-piano concertos and Rhapsody for piano and orchestra.
yeah that doesnt sound good at all, maybe if you play very very soft and slow, and just one note at a time
guys it's not my thought, I read it in a book that is dedicated all to the piano, it's construction, most famous manufacturers, their designs and patents. And your comment "why did they add the keys ...". Of course you can play them, of course you can compose a music for those keys. But it's not their primary reason to be, and it won't sound good.
Too bad Horowitz only played Steinway. He could have made good use of those extra low notes!
So many rhythm irregularities….rubato has to be used tastefully and with correct proportions. Why was the end aborted? The most magnificent part of this piece is the HUGE MONOLITHIC CHORDS of the third section! I agree the extra deep notes on this piano really add a growling depth not achievable by a Steinway D. BTW I heard that Rachmaninoff did have a Bosendorfer to play on as well as a Steinway.
I have read that Rachmaninoff owned 2 NY Steinway D's, 1 of each for his homes in Beverly Hills and NYC, and also 1 Hamburg Steinway D which he kept in his Swiss home. He, I'm sure, had played on a Bosendorfer but never owned one. His stated preference was Steinway.
What you call rhythm irregularities I call style. Some people refuse to be plugged into a metronome.
Seahawk4Life There is such a thing as Tasteful "Tempo Rebato" and then there is just plain self indulgence without disregard for what is written. Listen to Rachmaninoff himself play this if you want to know what he wanted.
*****
People misunderstand what composers "really wanted." I write my own songs and I'll be sending them to friends after my album is set to see who interprets them best and I'll put my favorite interpretations on my CD. Dynamics are more of suggestions. I hear pros ignore them a lot. Artists also like to inspire. If someone takes an idea from my music for one of their songs then I'm happy to have inspired them.
Edward Ferdon "There are only two important things which i took with me on my way to America, my wife Natalja and my precious Bluthner" - Sergei Rachmaninoff. It sounds like he was a fan and owner of a Bluthner piano too.
The real truth is that a Steinway or Fazioli or a Modern Bechstein or a Mason & Hamlin or has more power & projection. Bösendorfer is kinda compensating by making the most expensive and largest piano. But that thin rim actually saps power by vibrating too much sympathetically with the sound board an older ineffective strategy.
Your statement has several wrong assumptions and conclusions. The Bösendorfer Imperial is a unique design, not originally developed to perform with an orchestra, but to represent an orchestra's many instruments. The piano was developed in the late 19th century specifically to perform transcriptions from other instruments. Virtuosos like Lizst & Busoni and others were writing and performing transcriptions (Orchestral or Organ, etc) and touring to bring these great works to medium-sized cities where they could be performed on the piano. Great care is taken with the design of the Imperial to emphasize tonal variety, distinct registers, and purity of tone to bring out the different voices. It was not built to lead a large orchestra in the way that a Steinway, Fazioli, etc. were specifically designed to do. In those instances, raw power is prioritized. Bösendorfer's recent model 280VC was designed for large halls and large orchestras. Secondly, I must correct your statement about the the visible outer rim (thin); it is not structural. The structural rim on the Bösendorfer (seen from underneath) is actually 2x thicker (~7" thick) than the rim on a Steinway or Fazioli or Bechstein. Importantly, the rims do work on very different design philosophies, but the differences are not deficiencies, they are different priorities. The projection on the new 280VC is absolutely amazing (yes, louder than a Steinway, etc), and its rim design is still rooted in the design of other Bösendorfer grands (solid spruce), not in the rim design used by the other makers you mentioned (laminated hardwoods). It's all in how you use it. Finally, there is no doubt that the Imperial is expensive to produce, but other makers make longer or heavier or more expensive grands...it's silly to accuse them of compensating, rather than serving their market...which is literally a handful of devoted pianists that value its unique performance. When it comes to leading the orchestra, the 280VC is their thoroughbred in that different horse race.
Yeah, I think if Sergei would have used the Bosendorfer Imperial as recommended by its manufacturer. Those extra bass notes should not be played very much, if at all. As is clear by this video, (even considering the limitations of the recording and its reproduction), one can tell they sound terrible to the human ear when played in conjunction with the rest of the instrument, especially when pounded in this way. I wish this performer had played this piece as written as well as this way, in order to demonstrate the difference. The resonance of the extra long, thick strings is a great benefit. Hitting them with the hammers is problematic, at best, as this video demonstrates.
We have no problem with differing opinions and discussions, but based on your comment, did you try alternative listening equipment? We've used a variety of reference-class headphones, moderate quality computer speaker system and a good quality home theater system and there is variance in how successful the result is for the audience, but the feedback among them is overwhelmingly positive. Clearly the video was made in the spirit of fun, but the idea (beyond the showcase of this unique piano design) is that composers are influenced by the tools and sounds at their disposal. For composition, a piano offers a broader compass, greater dynamic range, and more tonal variety than most pianos, but composers still run into the margins of design and their compositions are affected by their tools. The Imperial adds to that already impressive toolbox. Rachmaninoff used quite a few different pianos at home for composition and its interesting to see how his use of Blüthner affected some of his compositions and his later touring with Steinway affected others. He's certainly known to have altered his performances (from the written scores) as he deemed fitting. Some better pianists than I were greatly inspired by and had access to the Imperial but those works are rarely performed due to all manors of historical and practical challenges...among them, the rarity of the Bösendorfer Imperial in the first place. :)
I love the bass and i prefer my opinion over yours
Of course Rach would have had played one, the first Imperial was built in 1911.
I’m sorry to say you earned a dislike, my first time ever doing so. I want to hear the big crashed in the end! You can’t leave that part out, especially on a Imperial!
Lol thought it said Bach
Rachmaninoff actually preferred Bluthner
He became Rich lol
If Rachmanninov had the Bosendorfer he probably would not make 5 mistakes
Not a good Rach-performance....but excellent Grand piano
I agree. There is way too much rubato going on for me. I think he should listen to a recording of Rachmaninoff playing it to understand what the composer intended. This sounds like Chopin. lol
There you go again Rune and the same goes for Hervin. This is NOT a recital or concert but a demonstration of a piano's sound. Therefore a review of Derek Vann's playing is not in order here.
You totally miss the point. If you post anything on a social media, it is the readers/listeners that decide what is important/good/bad. You put yourselfin the position of judgement, just as a concertpianist. Otherwise you wouldn't haveplayed in publicin the first place.
Edward Ferdon I can post whatever the hell I want to when I want. Who are YOU to tell someone what they can post.
When someone post something on social media it's bound to be critiqued. No it's not a recital Sherelock. No one is stupid to not know that. But if you going to put a video up of your playing you put up your best piece you have prepared.
Actually, I don't think it's too bad. Rachmaninoff took many liberties in his tempo when playing Chopin, for instance (probably more than Chopin would have wanted). His rubato reminds me a bit of how Rachmaninoff would play some of those rubatos.
Really don’t like the low notes below A. Sounds silly and seems like a gimmick. Steinway’s Model D blows this away
falshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Che brutta registrazione
Meh
That sounds horrible