Worldly music in church would cause me to stumble. I had spent so many years drilling satanic music into my head that I have to avoid it altogether or it puts me right back in that same Godless mindset. I thank God for granting me repentance and Jesus for covering my sins. I think churches should be more careful that they don't cause their members to stumble.
To be honest, the best worship music I’ve heard and was ministered to by were just a few people with a guitar and a piano. Nothing more than that instrumentation wise. It was very beautiful.
I am a drummer and played in church and other bands since I was in my teens. I noticed over the years that church music became more and more like the world's music and it became less about God and what his Holy Spirit wanted to do but how good we could be. When you leave God out of your music then he really does stop showing up in the meeting. I found myself becoming involved in a concert rather than being there to worship almighty God. We just churned out song after song all for the sake of keeping up with the latest thing which just happened to be Hillsong mostly. In the end I had to step aside as I didn't feel comfortable playing anymore. I miss the days of true church worship where the Holy Spirit used to guide the service in the direction he wanted it to go. And I miss the great worshipful songs we used to sing. We were different to the world then but now it's just all the same.
Leave and find a Christ centered bible believing group of believers your loyalty should be to the Lord Jesus Christ no one else 2 Corinthians 6:16-18 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. God Bless
These comments are breaking my heart.... They show the true condition of the Church. Where is the discernment? You don't need carnal gimmicks to lead someone to Christ.... Faith comes by hearing... "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." We have the power of the Holy Spirit. Praise God!
@@seandattoli8467 "Judging"? Please define "judging"? It's not a sin to make judgements in & of itself. Because exercising what the Scripture call righteous judgment runs near the very core of day to day existence.
@@seandattoli8467 Well, literally to speak of the reality of judging anybody else for making a statement concerning judging. And again: I maintain that it is obviously not a sin to, in other words: to merely have an opinion about something. Because when Christ stated, judge not lest he be judged: The context of what He actually meant was judging hypocritically; judging according to mere external appearance & without genuine concern for the other person's soul. For as it states in John 7:24: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. And talk about, especially in the case Flatirons Community Church: Talk about ripping one single verse saying "judge not" completely out of context: and then chugging the rest of the Scripture totally out of the window. And seriously, please: Just leave Benny Hinn completely out of it. Because talk about literally going to the ends of the Earth to literally prove nothing. And another thing concerning judging: Something we don't do is just merely going around & trying to find out what everybody else is doing in their personal & private life. But rather, when there is sin within the Body of Christ: Open, unrepentant, rebellious & wilfull sin - it simply needs to be confronted. Otherwise, it will spiritually eat up the Body of Christ like a cancer. And plus I see that you elevate this Flatirons Community way higher above the level of accountability & questioning; which in fact is one of the more major marks of a cult anyway.
@@seandattoli8467 Well, I did not know either way of whether or not you were an attendant of this particular large gathering anyway. But either way: As long as you are unapologetically defending their actions: What difference does it make? And please just stop copping out & hiding behind other people's sin of those of whom you point your fingers at. It simply doesn't work. And plus: Accusations? What accusations? - That is, on my part? The thing is: I am most certainly not falsely accusing anybody of anything at all. And obviously, with you hiding behind all these endles invalid & personal arguments: You are simply beating around the bush. Because at the very heart of what you're attempting to defend: It is simply not how the assembly functions as the Body of Christ. That in accordance with Ephesians 5:19 & Colossians 3:16: What IS or at least what SHOULD be the purpose & nature of music in the Body of Christ? Because Ephesians 5:19 as well as Colossians 3:16 informs us & implies what music is to be used in worship & assembly is just as important whether or not there even is any music at all. And, as what you stated, "No more slander"? Since when in this case was I slandering you or anybody? All I stated for the most part in the starting statement was concerning the misconception concerning exercising righteous judgement. In addition to in all of this is you accusing me of having what you know as a "critical-spirit" - Of the which by the way I don't anyway, on either side of the pendulum. But you know what though? From reading & simply knowing the Scripture: We as believers in Christ ought to be realistic in the sense of seeing things as they are in accordance with the Scripture. The reality of the matter is, yeah sure: Hide behind your abundance of words in which you intend to bury anybody under who simply doesn't agree with your unconditional defense of a particular church gathering. But at the end of the day anyway, you honestly strike me as a manipulative jerk. I sincerely & wholeheartedly understand that may sound a little bit too rude; of the which by the way I'm sure you'll latch on too that as well. The thing is: I'm already at peace only to some degree with myself; knowing that I have long since unfollowed the herd back several years ago. But we as believers in Christ should nevertheless keep in mind "...when Joram saw Jehu, that he said, Is it peace, Jehu? And he answered, What peace, so long as the whoredoms of thy mother Jezebel and her witchcrafts are so many?" Alot like what you're doing: the apologists of such ministries are willing to waste away a massive amount of their time defending their musical enterprise built on the traditions of men & after the rudiments of the fallen system: By pointing their fingers at whom they hysterically percieve as those dreaded “Pharisees” - while they have three fingers pointing back at them.
@@seandattoli8467 Wow. Just wow. I guess whenever anybody ever does dare says or questions anything in defiance toward what Flatirons Community church teaches in any way, shape or form: It's immediately & automatically regarded as "evil speaking" & "slander." Sounds like nothing more than marks of a cult.
I enjoy listening to your podcast very helpful and very informative. I appreciate all your videos and have learned alot. Praise God for your ministry!!
God love's the world but all must be born again to reap the benefits of his love John 3:3-7 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:16-21 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God Luke 12:59 - 13:5 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.. Biblical salvation includes ; hearing, believing ,repentance ,water baptism by immersion Mark 16 : 15-16 Matt 28 : 19-20 Acts 2:38 God Bless
@@minister.WayneScott the thief on the cross got robbed then Can you point to where he was baptized by water immersion...or any other form before dying? Being baptised does not regenerate nor does it make us holy. Jesus himself was Baptised yet he was sinless. So we ought to be careful elevating water baptism to spiritual baptism.
@@scriptwriter1268 Rebellious and disobedient people used the absence of information on a subject or person in the bible to justify present rejection against God's clear commands . The thief that was crucified along side The lord Jesus Christ was under the Old Covenant (OT)which was still in force while Jesus was alive so He Jesus Christ could and did what he deem fit including the promise of paradise to a repentant sinner. New Testament After the death and resurrection of the Lord all who believe the gospel must repent and be baptized in water for the remission of sins. Mark 16:16 Acts 2:38 Acts 8:12-16 ,36-38 Acts 10:40-44 Acts 16:30-34 These are not my words they were here 2000 years before i was born . you can argue with the creator all you wish, i will obey 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2Ti 4:1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Joshua 24:15 As Joshua told the ancient Israelite's to chose between God or idols i say to you now, you can obey or you can argue, rebel and disobey.
I do NOT think this kind of music should be played in church,but I wouldn't call the music "satanic" and I don't have a problem with the a lot of songs outside of church that I would not approve of being in church. So what I'm saying is,sing hymns in church,and listen to the other music for fun.
Sunday morning is a time for corporate worship of true believers.... The main job of the teaching pastor is to feed the sheep. You do not see the concept of seeker sensitive 'churches' in the Bible.... The Holy Spirit will lead sinners into a relationship with Christ.
Blessed work brother! You don’t attack, nor condescend but lovingly teach. Sadly All the blind have thumbs downed this video to the tune of 50% but we know this is to be expected... so if even one single viewer was moved by this video you have served the body. --Love you from a far Brother
@@seandattoli8467 Right on, brother. I was "home schooled" in scripture by my mother in strict KJV old English, and i have had a very strict interpretation of scripture that made me cringe through nearly every sermon i ever heard preached in a church. I saw hypocrites in the parking lots and recognized the power of mob mentality. I was loathe to attend flatirons because it was so huge, but God brought me to my knees one night and a small voice told me that she found great comfort through the teachings at flatirons. So i went. Bible in hand (i was the only person i saw with a bible..) And Jim began a series that he said was the very foundation of this church, the series was on the 23rd psalm. I wept in the last row. Sobbed. I knew that psalm inside and out and my mother always taught me to reach for it when i was in trouble or lost. And here in this mega church, it is its foundation. God brought me to a safe haven that celebrates His word above else. Teaches clean scripture, directly and with a kindness that resonates with each person. God is good. Then... My husband had always been a devout atheist. With a degree in philosophy from CU, he is proud of his intellectual understanding of thinking and life in general. We met in a philosophy class, although my major was physics. During this rough time, he saw that i needed flatirons, and in a show of support (which in itself was a miracle of sorts), he offered to go to church with me one Saturday. I was stunned. He listened to Jim and said, "wow, this guy really knows his stuff. Aristotle talked about this.." And he has continued to watch Jim online since we moved to Austin. He is so close to realizing who Jesus really is..he had decided that God is actually real, and maybe his Jewish ancestors really did record history correctly...so close! ...and it is this church that is leading him to eternal life. This church. I am so grateful for this church. Shift is wonderful. So, I totally agree with everything you stated, the Holy Spirit runs deep here and uses everything in it's path to teach the truth with love. - PEACE
@@seandattoli8467 Plus God can use whatever He wants to reach people. I have sung along to the radio and purposely re worded some of it, or just told God, "I'm singing about you...not some'body.." Just because it isn't a hymn or even a Christian authored song, doesn't mean it can't be used to glorify our father. Karen's. They're everywhere.
To those who are calling out BEZELT3 as a "hypocrite" for exposing these pastors, keep in mind that it's only hypocritical if you call out a specific sin in someone else but you're guilty of that same sin.
I went to a so called "contemporary church" it was a nice for a few weeks coffee bar, pop concert type atmosphere but I began to see some flaws ! It was mostly younger people, they had to many collections ? the sermons where weak on doctrine and there was little if no reverence for God ! In fact one of the church leaders sat through a sermon with his feet up on top of the seat in front sucking a lolly pop doh! The pastor attended a fellowship meeting with RC priests ? But the seal I got a while after leaving was they had Creflo $$$$$ come speak 😖
There are SO FEW churches who actually do what you urge at the end of this video. I used to be Pentecostal, and would never go back, but I will say that one thing the UPC church taught me is a reverence for the Lord and godly sorrow for my sin. I haven't attended a church since then that takes sin and worship as seriously as it should be. I like to ask myself this question: how would I worship if Jesus Christ was physically standing in the room in front of me? While eating a muffing and sipping coffee? I think not.
I enjoy your video breakdown. It’s a shame there is so many false prophets, but one day Heaven will open up and this craziness will be judged. Thank you Jesus, for dying on the cross and forgiving me, a sinner. I repent and pray that each day I get the chance to share the “Good News”. In Jesus name I pray, Amen!
"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." [1 Corinthians 2: 2] "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." [Galatians 1: 8] ✝️
@@seandattoli8467 'Self-righteousness' means a person believes they are cleansed and saved without Jesus Christ's sacrificial death on the Cross for all their sins, no matter what other god they believe in. I fail to see how you reckon that those who believe the latter of the above paragraph are 'self-righteous'. The Bible says 'self-righteousness' is *NO RIGHTEOUSNESS* at all, and in fact is nothing more than filthy rags to be thrown into a fire. ONLY the pure and holy blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness and furthermore He removes our sins completely and remembers them no more. Anyone who can beat that has never been born and never will be. Cheers! ✝️🇦🇺
@@seandattoli8467 You're asking people to reveal private information to satisfy your need to know to other's relashionship to God and/or their church affiliations. *That's not going to happen and rightly so.* You come across as a mature person, so if people make statements you regard as 'sanctimonious, holier-than-thou, arrogant, prideful, etc', then why not ignore them or comment graciously to correct them. Immaturity is often the reason for such. Take care that you are not judging others by your interpretation of the way they comment to put their point of view forward. That doesn't mean not challenging error, but there's a way to do that without the judgment. Cheers! ✝️🇦🇺
@@seandattoli8467 I take it you're comment may have more to do with the presenter's video content. The Flatirons church enters the public domain when making videos of their services, so they do leave themselves open to being challenged publicly. The presenter is not saying the church, pastors or members are 'hell-bound', but making a point by challengibg some of the theology (or lack thereof) by the pastors from the Biblical perspective to highlight the secular content of the meeting that is a corrupting influence. "A little leven, levens the whole lump" as you would be familiar with from Scripture. Challenging error is good stewaldship of the Gospel and I commend the presenter for the way in which he is doing just that. Scripture is clear about such, viz:- "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." [James 5: 19-20] ✝️🇦🇺
@@seandattoli8467 I think you go way too far in your lack of historical accuracy bc the 'witches' that were burned at the stake by the unholy roman catholic church were born again Christians who refused to bow the knee to papal apostacy by becoming 'catholics' in the Luciferian system. They've candestantly been murdering and persecuting Bible believers ever since; not to mention covering up all the pedophiles in the ranks. Brush up on your history before you make such outrageous statements! ✝️🇦🇺
@@seandattoli8467 Why did you delete your last comment? Do you not understand that all persecution and murder, such as you refer to, is only carried out by those who despise God and their fellowman? I can call myself a 'green frog', but unless I live in a pond and croak, I'm not a green frog! The same applies to those who call themselves ''Christian' then persecute and murder others in God's name. They will receive their just reward eventually. Being a steward and watchman of the Gospel to correct those who misuse it for their own worldly gratification is commanded by God; but it's a major over-reach accusing them of being capable of burning people at the stake for same. Be balanced in your comments, please! ✝️🇦🇺
paul gay I noticed that too. I’m only 32 years old, but I cannot handle it. No surprise though in an age where we all pull out our smartphones if I sense boredom for even three seconds.
The music my church uses is overall doctrinally correct, but the style has been evolving to that of a louder, concert-type atmosphere. It is distracting, and some people actually leave the sanctuary while it's going on, and come back when it's finished.
And so *that* is the defining criteria of Christian music - "because some people enjoy it"? Actually, after a recent survey of members, it was determined that it was too loud, and they're making some changes.
No i could go into why they are reaching the younger generation and if you want to be logical and look at stats of these old churches that are dying go ahead and google them. Please don't take one word and just argument off of that. I really would like real critical thinking skills in what Flatirons is doing. They are reaching people. Where's your joy brother.
The seeker friendly church is about one thing: MEMBERS! It is a business. A 501 (c) non profit entity that enriches or fills the pockets of the lead pastor and “his chosen” few. More members, more tithes. Entertain the members and more will come to the show! The formula is simple. Cool pastor with shirt tail out and denim (holes optional in the pants) pants, a great light show, power point slide show with worldly music and coffee shop and whalaw! You’ve got a mega church. Mushy message, sinners welcome (no Bereans allowed) and let’s go looking for another campus to get some more unrepentant sinners!
This is spot on. I worked at a large church and observed this first hand. They are a business that hides behind the guise of non-profit. All about multiplication and bringing in more and more money to fuel their machine. I love growing churches, it means that people are getting saved and becoming part of the kingdom. But I saw so much spiritual manipulation and perversion by the leaders of the church, that it makes me sick. Great comment....very accurate.
@bezelt3- thank you for taking the time from your work schedule to bring us this. Much appreciated. Flatiron and many more are the perfect examples of "churches" trying to "be relevant" and for me, this is an excuse for them to not preach the Gospel. And why would they avoid preaching the Gospel? Because the message of the cross calls them to die to themselves, and see themselves as God really sees them. Instead, they give these self-help quasi-phycological "sermons."
Series like this are very popular at churches these days. I worked at a large church for many years and we regularly did a series called "The Playlist". We would spend a month each year trying to be as over the top as possible to draw in unbelievers - secular music, concert setting, photo op stations, free popcorn and soda, carnival in the parking lot, etc. For some reason our creative team and Lead Pastor felt that we had to copy other ARC churches and be hip and cool and relevant by turning our church into a club atmosphere because according to him, that was going to reach people and fill the seats. The problem is that whatever you win them with, you win them to. So if you win them with flashy, over the top secular concerts......they expect that every week. And when we would return to "normal" church our attendance would plummet. Why? Because we basically gave the non-believers something cool and fun to do on the weekend, but we did not give them the Gospel. Yes, we would wrap some Bible verses around the rock concert and tell people all the great things that God will do for them, but we would not tell them about living a life devoted in obedience to the One who had saved their soul. We made sure we gave them a nice, flashy, me-centric gospel but we didn't give them Jesus. Me-centric doesn't work. Series like this are totally hollow. If you are a believer for any length of time, you will be left feeling as if you received nothing from the message. I am all about Paul's Corinthian approach of becoming all things to all people, that he might save some.....but this isn't it. This is the church gone astray.
Jeremiah 23:23-30 23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? 24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord. 25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. 26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; 27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal. 28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord. 29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? 30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 4:1-4 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Can you suggest a church for my family. We've attended seeker friendly churches in the past that have very similar worship services. We then visited an Assembly of God church that wasn't much different. We visited a UPC church, but don't want to get caught up in incorrect doctrine regarding the trinity. Is there a denomination that is closest to correct sound biblical preaching?
Probably something baptist, no church is perfect. I hope your family has found a solid church by now though :) a church that practices church discipline is a good sign of a Biblical church.
Independent Baptist. In all honesty though, Pentecostal churches are the only church that approaches worship with the reverence and awe that Jesus deserves. It's a shame their doctrine is wrong.
I mean to be fair, they are like the only rock band ever that keeps the cursing to a minimum, doesn't sing about drugs or sex, and don't use immodesty in their videos.
You ask why ............They hate Jesus and his word so they seek after liars pay close attention to verses 3 and 4 2 Timothy 4:1-4 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I think people should try to keep in mind that sometimes God can use something secular to speak to you but God also calls us to be discerning in our spirits and gives us patterns to follow for prayer and worship. While God used a Linkin Park song to bring me back to Him about 11 years ago I would never think to sing that same song in church because the song doesn't point to Jesus Christ in any way, shape, or form. It simply says that, "if I could change I would." The song made me realize I *could* change and so I did. The song is now meaningless to me because it only tells a partial truth and merely has sentimental value because it was a stepping stone on my way back to God's grace. I believe this church has good intentions but, as the saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
chipputer . ya i underdstand u i had a siimlar experience .if someone is far from God like most of america is he can use someone in the middle even though God isnt in the middle ground . if ur that far from God he can use someone in the middle to get u to reallize u need get closer..i was realy living a sinfulli and i cant say that God used less sinful music at one time but it did make me realies that i didn have to be like everyone else and eventually i did repent and turn to Christ.God doesnt want us to stay in the middle He said be hot or cold or He would not be happy with us.
If a pastor wants to quote from a pop song or novel or movie during a sermon to make a point, I have no problem with that. I am concerned when the worship team performs a pop song. At that point, it seems the world is being praised and the attention shifts off of Christ.
That isn't what he was referring to. Even Bezelt3 didn't say there was anything wrong with their content. We all do have very different ideas about who Christ is. Some are 95% right...and 5% wrong. Others are closer to 30/70. That's reality. The pastor here goes on to show WHO Jesus is and because this is one of at least 52 lessons taught in a year, it doesn't stop there.
Perhaps you forget that Jesus did not come for the righteous but for the sinners. They use secular songs to illustrate the need to have Jesus in your heart and life. The lyrics of secular music cry out in pain and the sermon is geared to address that pain. They are not promoting secular ideas about God or Jesus. If you are in doubt as to the fierceness of belief at Flatirons that the only way to God is through Jesus, look at the series on the 23 psalm- Pastor Jim uses it to define the vision at Flatirons. I wouldn’t be there if they were not preaching the absolute gospel.
I don't think he got that. The message of the music illustrates a need not an answer. It's ok to sing a song that poses a question or illustrates a need when you can reveal that the answer is Jesus.
This is how you know these people are not filled with the Holy Spirit. How can your heart be glorifying Him through a secular song lavished with filthy language.
You're making some big assumptions here... Based on this guy's video - did you actually go watch any of the services yourself? Or are you basing your opinion (judgement) on what this guy has provided in his video without any other context?
"I don't like props" ? Show me a scriptural justification for this. Seems like your own personal preference. Injecting that into an otherwise useful commentary does yourself a disservice. Keeping your personal preferences out of it and sticking to scriptures will improve your credability.
All they do is let the world creep into the church more and more until you cannot tell the difference...and of course, it's always about money...make the sheepeople comfortable, keeping those buckets full.
"All they do is" Perhaps read the testimony below of one of the members you're persecuting...invariably to make yourself feel better or to feel that pride well up. Its makes people feel very powerful and content with themselves. Perhaps invest in investigating Flatirons and other churches more before attacking. You got this one wrong. You and even I may not agree with every single thing they do...just as I don't agree with everything Lutherans do etc., but it does not mean God is not changing lives, growing people or that the gospel isn't being communicated. There are countless stories of transformed lives at this church. Some are listed in the comments. You're treading into dangerous territory when you begin attacking Christians. God gives grace to the humble and his disciplines his children. Do not take the position of The Father or the persecutors. Dig deeper than the surface.
to all the people who are like this person my answer Matthew 9 a lot of this same thing was said about skillet and others the funny thing is that skillet and others helped to bring me back to Christ woe to you who judge for you will be judged 10Later, as Jesus was dining at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with Him and His disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice. " For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Exactly. The church should speak the language of the culture, not condemn it. This talk just builds walls between the people who need Jesus and the church.
Christ said to call him father abba. If God is our father we should be blessed to approach him as a child approaches his father....with love. no fear no anxiety
There is a level of respect that a child should have for a Father. A Father is not a buddy or a friend. God is more than an ordinary Father, he is the creator of everything, deserving all worship and reverence.
@@aleclyons7766 No what you call respect is actually fear. Respect must be earned it is not given freely like candy at a parade. This only comes after a relationship is developed and a certain amount of maturity is attained. Your comment is nonsense. I do not fear the creator he is my father I do not have to cower to him ever.
@@launchone260 Reverence is not cowardice. Proverbs 1:7 Proverbs 8:13 Matthew 10:28 Psalm 111:10 Psalm 33:8 Luke 1:50 We are called to worship and respect the eternal God who is the creator of all things and is justified in whatever he does. See Isaiah 64, Romans 9
@@aleclyons7766 who said anything about cowardice??? Do you understand the English language??? Obviously your an idiot and do not even understand the spoken language. REALLY???? MORON
@@launchone260 you said "I do not have to cower to him ever" in your 2nd comment near the end. to cower is cowardice, thats the definition. So to answer your question, "who said anything about cowardice?", it was you.
Flatirons church does an incredible outreach with the jails and prisons. There are vans of people who are in programs of correction that come to church. Having music that they recognize and can hopefully view in a different light after the sermon is powerful. Let those of you without sin, cast the first stone.
im surprised they have not done The Talking Heads - Psycho Killer and attempt to tie it in to Saul before he was converted or even why not use The Talking Heads - Burning Down The House and tie it into the judgement of God. Now, if they use a Dire Straits song, then we have some issues :)
Read Tozers book The Pursuit of God. Everything centers on our desire for Jesus. Elevation worship has some incredible songs that draw young people to the heart of Jesus and we have no right to deny them this experience. MY GOD PEOPLE PRAY INSTEAD OF CRITICIZING! THE DEVIL WANTS OUR YOUTH! WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT REACHING THEM, HANDING THEM A HYMN BOOK?
If the Devil is after the young people as you say he is-(Don't get me wrong: Because he obviously is). So therefore: How exactly is popular entertainment churned put by one of the most corrupt industries in existence, that is primarily from within the secular context: Going to somehow assist in helping steering the young people away from the snares of the Advesary? If anything: it's counterproductive. Within the spiritual landscape of today's Christiandom: There are those of whom bootlick the popular entertainment industry: by embracing its given methods & messages(even going so far with the secular context) - Under the deceitful cloak of "reaching people." Because when an individual defines terms incorrectly: One then goes into error. Because in all truth: Reaching is simply preaching & proclaiming the Gospel of the grace of God to them. When one preaches the gospel to that given individual: They've reached that lost person. But unfortunately: Much of today's Christiandom has vehemently denied this truth concerning, what the Scripture calls: The foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. And because of this, among other things: some local but rather assemblies have become centers of entertainment more than anything. The thing is, as I stated elsewhere: The primary means by which anyone comes to God in this dispensation of the grace of God: Is simply putting one's faith & trust in what Christ has done at the cross of Calvary: That Christ died; was buried & rose again on the third day; and ascended up into Heaven & sits at the right hand of the Father. And the primary response to this is simply put: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & thou shalt be saved." And NO justification & embracement of popular entertainment is absolutely needed, nor is it necessary or called for.
‘Draw young people to the heart of Jesus’ ? What does that even mean. Do the young people hear about sin, the need for a Savior and repentance ? I would assert they aren’t hearing enough of the Gospel to truly become Believers
Some if not ALL of the musicians he mentioned have sold their souls for fame and fortune. (See the documentary “ They Sold Their Souls For Rock n Roll.”) Why would you expose your congratulation to THAT??
I used to attend this church early in my walk..... I left for this reason. They were playing Linkin Park, Imagine Dragons, Bruno Mars, and even Hozier take me to church. Horrible. The pastor Jim Brugen had to get up to defend their use of this music in a whole sermon. Basically, aligning with seeker friendly mentality. It's a mega Church, seeker friendly, and waters down the gospel.
You speak of verses and the effect the Word of God alone should have on us and I appreciate that. I don't want or need "melt my face" secular music and narcissistic "preaching"...I read Revelation 8:1 and must stop to contemplate how "loud" the silence would be..."When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour." Teach about that...bring our focus to the Lamb how terribly awestruck all of heaven will be when it is time for the wrath of God to be poured out. Teach the TRUTH...all of it...rather than watering it down and teaching a false gospel that will not truly save anyone and leave the lost subject to God's wrath!
AAAHH!! If I could vomit right now I would. I can’t stand the constant reach for edginess and faux singer/song writer depth. I hate it so much. The church needs to get out of the habit of copying the world and it’s endless indulgence in the appearance of instability, brooding and mental illness.
Where is it written HOW someone should come to God? Does it really matter if the ultimate result is that we come to Him? This is my church and I stand proud and loud because when I went to 'conventional' church and my mother died? That church clergy lied to me and my father and took money that we paid for the rosary and they still call themselves Christians. I do not have time in my life, as it seems you do, to stand in judgement of anyone especially a church that I know nothing about. So for me, you may stand in judgement all you want, but I ask you? Wouldn't it be worth more if you put this energy and effort into something of value and positive and meaningful? If you don't like this church, that is fine. But don't sit back in your chair and pontificate on things that you know not of. It is your opinion and you have every right to express it. I just would rather hear your thoughts about your journey from your perspective. That would be something that a person could benefit from and enjoy and learn. I'm proud to call Flatirons my home. I love the passion and the honesty that they put into everything they do. It's not fluff. They don't sugarcoat. They call the spade a spade. And they bring people together just like every other church does. Because it's different and does things that are not of a 'specific' ideology does not make them any less important to a heart who has found a home and love for Jesus. At the end of the day? That really is all that matters. p.s. Thank you for taking the time and bringing to light once again why I'm passionate about Flatirons Community Church!!!
Patty Lyn S please can you send me the link to any sermon from your church that talks about our sinfulness, the need for forgiveness, the importance of sanctification, of discipleship, id be interested to listen to one
The primary means by which anyone comes to God in this dispensation of the grace of God: Is simply putting one's faith & trust in what Christ has done at the cross of Calvary: That Christ died; was buried & rose again on the third day; and ascended up into Heaven & sits at the right hand of the Father. And the primary response to this is simply put: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & thou shalt be saved." And NO justification & embracement of popular entertainment is absolutely needed, nor is it necessary.
I agree that secular music should not be used in church worship but disagree on the reasoning. Many popular secular songs have very offensive lyrics. However, secular references during church can be used as a metaphor for teaching. We are afterall part of a world of sinners and we can't live completely separate from the unbelievers.
And by the way.....if anyone doesn't like Flatirons Church....that's great. It is very overcrowded but, they keep building more campuses to accommodate all of the people that do want to attend a real church. They don't need people that try to find fault in anything and chase people away. Please just find a church that you are comfortable in and go there!
Todd Corrigan As far as the music itself is concerned: May I ask, how then, would you respond to the following Scriptures? Colossians 3:15-16 "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Ephesians 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;..."
Sure....First of all, Peace of God rule in our hearts. I don't see any of that here. It is just "Christians" tearing the church and each other down. That in my opinion is not right and I don't blame people for thinking Christians are hypocrites. But, I digress....that is not what you asked about. The music: They sing hymns and spiritual songs! They have grace in their hearts. That is what most churches skip over...Grace. Flatirons believes in grace and truth both! With every songs they sing, in my opinion, sing it to bring glory to God. How do they do this? You have no idea how many people that have given up on God and the church that come to know the Lord because Flatirons is not the same as every other church! If you don't believe the way this church does....great, find a church that you are comfortable in and support them! I went to several other churches. This is the only church that I've been a part of that teaches only what is in the Bible.
Todd Corrigan Sorry, but I'm going to have to apologize because I should have clarified myself what exactly I meant by that question. Because I'm quite aware that Flatirons will perform some Christian music with along side a good number of performances that most would consider as secular pop & rock or whatever it may be. Because what I really meant to ask is how exactly does Eph 5:19 & Col 3:16 would be fit-in & be consistent with the latter mentioned before hand when it actually is done.
This was a little convoluted to read (for me), but I think that you are asking how the 'secular' music ties into these scriptures. All that I am saying is that regardless of if you believe that it ties into these scriptures, it brings thousands of people into a place that they would never go and it brings glory to God through that. I don't know anywhere in the Bible that says that you have to have a cross on the church or wear a suit and tie. But, many churches do that. Where should a homeless man go to church? Probably at a place that doesn't look down on him for not having fancy clothes. Did Jesus just hang around perfect "acting" people? No. Did he not talk to drunkards and prostitutes? Church is for imperfect people. Play some different music and some of these people come to a church for the first time in their life. Love these people and allow them to see who Jesus is. We cannot save anyone....only God can do that. The church should be a place that loves all people and allows them an environment to find Jesus. That will look different to different people. As long as a church preaches the truth that is in the Bible, I don't care how they do it. If someone wants to criticize Flatirons without ever going there one time.....well, stop in and see for yourself. Talk to the pastors there and voice your concerns. I defend what I believe is right, I defend my country, and I defend my house and family. If people get hung up on the music that is played, wait until they here the title for one of the series preached at this "cult" (not my thoughts, but the thoughts of many of the self righteous people) called Flatirons.....ready to open up that can of worms? The series: "Grow a Pair" I really have said all that I can and don't have time to explain it to everyone. I will not be responding more. Everyone can look into it for themselves, or just bash the church (God's house) in a way that "Christian" people always seem to do. Peace and love to all of you!
Todd Corrigan Hello, I do apologize that I did sounded a bit convoluted. But other than that: All I was doing was simply trying ask a question. But yet you back at me twisting what I said in the sense of putting words in my mouth & completely changing the subjext of what my question basically addressed; also known as "...reframing the discussion..." The title to one of my more recent uploads is: A Better Way: A Call To Repentance From The Unconditional Pragmatism in The Body of Christ - And A Return To Our Sufficiency in Christ & of The Gospel. th-cam.com/video/H-9-eL1ZhVs/w-d-xo.html Problably just one of the things I want to make note of this video is this: As far as relating to the unsaved: There is nothing in the world wrong with making & being friends with people in general with obvious perimeters depending upon the circumstances. I personally believe strongly in building bridges of relationships to people on a personal level - and using that as a platform to simply preach the Gospel to them. And I can base these convictions squarely upon the word of God which demonstates this very thing. And of course we are to "relate" to people - but it all depends on how one defines what is meant by that one word. Because we are to relate to them in the sense of understanding & coping with their problems from a Biblical perspective - And therefore helping them go through their circumstances. And in corrospondance with building bridges of relationships to them: we are to be a witness & examples to the lost. One of the most exciting things about personal evagelism is that it is something that is open to every Christian. Going back to George Thomas's three New Testament methods: every Christian can pray; every Christian is called to live a godly life and every Christian can speak about Christ." In his infinite love & wisdom, God has put the greatest privilege in the world within the reach of every Christian believer. But here is one of the only few exceptions: Don't ever let the unregenerate of whom you minister to drag you through spiritual sewage of this wicked system that's not in consistency with the walk & newness of life in accordance after the Gospel. Because we are not to accommodate or to add to those problematic circumstances in their lives with where they're at with God. In fact, when a Christian does so - it ruins their testimony. This is where the fine dividing line really stands. I want to say also that I completely embrace the beautiful truth of love & compassion towards the lost & a spiritually dying world. And we the Believers responce rooted in the love of this truth should be to geniounly reach them with the proclamation of the Gospel of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ. And all of this in addition would be to comforting the feeble minded and helping & supporting the infirm. What complicates things, is when it comes to how we believers redefine this beautiful truth of walking in love within the Body of Christ & towards the lost. Because quite sadly, in these times of many perils facing us, we can get severely off track by misinterpreting, distorting, and eventually turning it on its head. One of the ways this happens is by embracing the messages & methodologies of this fallen & wicked system that has engulfed our culture under the misleading cloak of lovingly accepting its victims. In other words: They have completely redefined & turned it around backwards to basically mean to accommodate on a public level of ministry to the satanic sewage churned out by an industry that is rooted in rebellion against God & His word rather than to truly rescue those who have been caught up in its lascivious riot. Not only is not helpful for all those who attend these publicly held services within the Body of Christ: But is in fact very unhelpful; if not, at times: very spiritually destructive & abusive and if not, outright counterproductive. You stated: "We cannot save anyone... Only God can do that." And I know for myself, I'm in total agreement with that & therefore would say a definite amen. And if it is truly Jesus Christ our Saviour alone who does the saving: then another question which would just be one of the things the title implies is this: Is Christ alone sufficient enough? Is His Gospel alone sufficient enough? And if so: Then why do we - work on our part - to accommodate it by dragging it through the Satanic Sludge to crawl up out of the sewer of an industry that is rooted in rebellion against God & His Word? All I'm trying to ask is: Should we feel that there should be a need to accommodate to the Gospel by our own methods that are at variance with the Scripture? But yet those same methods "glorify God" by the standard of "...whatever gets them in the doors"?
But this is just your personal preference. Let's see some scripture against use of props in preaching. I suspect that even those who do not use physical props still use mental props.
Go with me here...flatline is like Flatliners, which starred Keifer Sutherland, who also played in Lost Boys, which is about vampires....WHICH ARE OF SATAN!!!! This guy is on to something.
I think Oswald was murdered by the mafia or cuba or something, so I think you might be off base. However it's these moments of uncertainty, that we must look to the teachings of Bezelt3.
Linkin Park; is officially a modification of a "Lincoln Park" that the leader supposedly is paying homage to. But the conspiracy theory that the reference is to a Canadian MK Ultra child-torture military base seems more plausible to me, based on the depressing, warped music they produce & knowing what I now know about the music industry. I think the "official" wikipedia story is a cover.
the guy who preached the sermon you were talking about at the beginning should take over. he seems to know what's he's talking about. the lead pastor sounds like a guy who wants to make money
They're. If you can't get that right, hermeneutics is likely not your expertise either. How about stop causing division. You actually no nothing about this church. Have you ever been? You can attack the bride of Christ then?
Understanding, in all aspects, religion and education, works to connect someone's prior language (knowledge) to specific language (science vocabulary, or religious language). Jesus and his disciples talked about doing this in the Bible, using cultural stars to connect reasoning to the Bible. You should make a video of self-reflection comparing your nit-picking to the Pharisees.
Clearly this band employs the use of crunchy guitars. Those same crunchy guitar sounds can be heard regularly with bands like KISS (Knights in Satan’s Service), ACDC (Against Christ Devil’s Children), and Ozzy Osbourne (Black Sabbath, also known to eat the heads off of bats on stage.) Where do we draw the line? Bill Gaither clearly never needed these crunchy sounds. Paul Simmons the lead singer of Kiss also breathes fire like a dragon and drinks blood. Jimmy Hendricks was the first to use these sounds, and he is rumored to have kneeled down before his guitar, and set it on fire as some sort of Baal worship. Makes you think.....hmmmmm
Not only crunchy guitars, but a 4/4 bass drum beat, which is well-known to be a Satanic creation of Satan. Pagan cults have been known to employ 4/4 bass drum beats (DW or Yamaha drums, I think) while practicing their human sacrifice rituals. To your point, did Keith Green ever employ a 4/4 bass drum beat to accompany his human sacrifice rituals? I think not. You only see that in really Satanic "Christian" rock. Like the Imperials.
BamaMimi uh no they didn't. Harps, trumpets, and cymbals are not Satan Guitars and Ba'al drums. I would be supportive of trumpet rock (as long as there is no drum beat) but this rubbish is not approved or sanctioned by BezelT3
BamaMimi arguing with this stiff old man is pointless. He's not following the Word of God. He thinks that whatever this bezel boy is saying is gospel and clearly we know it's not. So don't waste your time man.
Wow. I try not to comment on TH-cam since it's an active minefield and every mine is set to go off with the slightest vibration, but.... KISS does not stand for knights in Satan's' service. That was made up by other people and the band just let it happen as it drew them more media attention. His name is GENE Simmons, not Paul. He doesn't drink blood, he spits out a red liquid for shock value. Many people breathe fire as part of an act. It's an act. And that act and the church ranting about for decades has made him a millionaire. He and the rest of the band loved it when parents, teachers and preachers yelled about them. It brought them more attention and more fans. AC/DC does not stand for against Christ devil's children. It's what it says it is; alternate current and direct current. The guitar player's sister saw it on the bottom of a sewing machine and they thought it would make a cool band name. Again, like Kiss, another made up story involving abbreviations that were probably created and the band let it happen as it drew them more attention. Ozzy doesn't bite bats heads on a regular basis. He did it one time, regretted it and paid a high price in rabies shots after the fact. But again, don't muddle a good story with the truth. Hendrix set his guitar on fire at the Monterey International Pop Festival in June of '67 as part of his act. To the best of my knowledge he only did it once and he was probably out of his mind on acid or something when he did it. I'd say there's a better chance he came out of his haze a few days later and said "I did WHAT to my guitar!?!?!" than kneeling before it as an act of worship. The church did more to promote rock and metal in the 70's and 80's than a lot of promoters did. And in the end the rock stars where the ones laughing all the way to the bank because of all the attention we (the church) brought to them. And be careful about those crunchy guitars. I've heard a song or two by The Cathedrals that had a crunchy guitar in them. Maybe one or two out of the hundreds they did, but they did do it. And I know for a fact The Imperials used crunchy guitars. And of course Gaither probably doesn't use crunchy guitars. It doesn't lend or go with the style of music. Wow. I haven't heard arguments that bad in years. The only "hmmmmm" this makes me think is "hmmm, I thought the church was getting smarter when it came to debating about secular music. Clearly we still have some that are still using 80's arguments that should have stayed in the 80's". We have issues in the church when it comes to music, but it's not what kind of guitar is being used or whether drums or in it or not. It's thinks like this Flat Church using secular songs and other churches using songs by groups like Hillsong and Bethel. That's your real issue, not idiot comparison of sound or such. Why don't we just go ahead and say it's a sin to drive a Ford as many drug dealers, bank robbers and such drive Fords? Better yet, Nissans. I'm not a big fan of imports, so let's make owning and driving imports a sin. Just don't say Toyota. I might by one of those someday.
Its nice to know that one day these very disrespectful men will be silenced.Youre right,i cant stand that casual buddy,buddy attitude that reduces God to my barbeque buddy!
Prophet of the Lord here. All of you who doubt this church are now condemned to hades until you change your mind. Your souls are now going to descend into cold oblivion and darkness. Second guess your judgements. God invented Good. Read Genesis 1.
Throwing this out there, Anyone who reads the Bible knows how radical Jesus was to the religious leaders of his day. I dont claim to have all the answers, but I can say im glad someone is being the Jesus who dared defy the normal, religious system and its leaders with a different thought. I really try not to judge people where they are. We are all in a different place. But it looks REALLY bad when the religious leaders (who are supposed to be more in touch with God) sit around their multiple studios and pick apart another Christian. That's sad.
I guess Hi Tech churches are the thing anymore.Think about this,I mean seriously think about this"What would the Apostle Paul do watching a thing like this????
talk about worldly wow & again the fruit of the NIV & or Esv, nkjv, ect... ect... I challenge anyone reading this to pick up the true word of God & read it & I'll bet u that it will speak to u like no other book on the planet.. plz get away from the perverted books that r not even close to the 1611KJV
Churches use the worship time to sell themselves. And my brother you are helping them do it. Like they say,good or bad publicity, is still publicity! You may be pointing out some things that have no business being said or sung in the House of God. But nevertheless you're doing their bidding unintentionally.
to be honest who decides what is secular or not......a drum beat....a guitar riff......using a base guitar...….how about the chord of C......is it demonic or not......who decides......so does church music have to be only a piano and maybe rythum guitar and maybe organ...anything more makes it secular...…….I wonder in all truth how would bezel t3 really do if he was preaching and lets critique him like he does others...see if hes sound in doctrine.....
Worldly music in church would cause me to stumble. I had spent so many years drilling satanic music into my head that I have to avoid it altogether or it puts me right back in that same Godless mindset. I thank God for granting me repentance and Jesus for covering my sins. I think churches should be more careful that they don't cause their members to stumble.
They are not up there playing Slayer or rap
@@scriptwriter1268 maybe not yet
Same here..
Very powerful analysis. We are a generation of itching ears and invested in self pleasure.
To be honest, the best worship music I’ve heard and was ministered to by were just a few people with a guitar and a piano. Nothing more than that instrumentation wise. It was very beautiful.
Robert Moore I like Gregorian chant
very well said
I tried attending this service. On the front of the bulletin: "Ear plugs are provided in the lobby."
What a horrible experience.
I am a drummer and played in church and other bands since I was in my teens. I noticed over the years that church music became more and more like the world's music and it became less about God and what his Holy Spirit wanted to do but how good we could be. When you leave God out of your music then he really does stop showing up in the meeting. I found myself becoming involved in a concert rather than being there to worship almighty God. We just churned out song after song all for the sake of keeping up with the latest thing which just happened to be Hillsong mostly. In the end I had to step aside as I didn't feel comfortable playing anymore. I miss the days of true church worship where the Holy Spirit used to guide the service in the direction he wanted it to go. And I miss the great worshipful songs we used to sing. We were different to the world then but now it's just all the same.
Leave and find a Christ centered bible believing group of believers your loyalty should be to the Lord Jesus Christ no one else
2 Corinthians 6:16-18
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
God Bless
These comments are breaking my heart.... They show the true condition of the Church. Where is the discernment? You don't need carnal gimmicks to lead someone to Christ.... Faith comes by hearing... "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." We have the power of the Holy Spirit. Praise God!
@@seandattoli8467 "Judging"? Please define "judging"? It's not a sin to make judgements in & of itself. Because exercising what the Scripture call righteous judgment runs near the very core of day to day existence.
@@seandattoli8467 Well, literally to speak of the reality of judging anybody else for making a statement concerning judging. And again: I maintain that it is obviously not a sin to, in other words: to merely have an opinion about something. Because when Christ stated, judge not lest he be judged: The context of what He actually meant was judging hypocritically; judging according to mere external appearance & without genuine concern for the other person's soul. For as it states in John 7:24: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. And talk about, especially in the case Flatirons Community Church: Talk about ripping one single verse saying "judge not" completely out of context: and then chugging the rest of the Scripture totally out of the window. And seriously, please: Just leave Benny Hinn completely out of it. Because talk about literally going to the ends of the Earth to literally prove nothing. And another thing concerning judging: Something we don't do is just merely going around & trying to find out what everybody else is doing in their personal & private life. But rather, when there is sin within the Body of Christ: Open, unrepentant, rebellious & wilfull sin - it simply needs to be confronted. Otherwise, it will spiritually eat up the Body of Christ like a cancer. And plus I see that you elevate this Flatirons Community way higher above the level of accountability & questioning; which in fact is one of the more major marks of a cult anyway.
@@seandattoli8467 Well, I did not know either way of whether or not you were an attendant of this particular large gathering anyway. But either way: As long as you are unapologetically defending their actions: What difference does it make?
And please just stop copping out & hiding behind other people's sin of those of whom you point your fingers at. It simply doesn't work. And plus: Accusations? What accusations? - That is, on my part? The thing is: I am most certainly not falsely accusing anybody of anything at all.
And obviously, with you hiding behind all these endles invalid & personal arguments: You are simply beating around the bush. Because at the very heart of what you're attempting to defend: It is simply not how the assembly functions as the Body of Christ. That in accordance with Ephesians 5:19 & Colossians 3:16: What IS or at least what SHOULD be the purpose & nature of music in the Body of Christ? Because Ephesians 5:19 as well as Colossians 3:16 informs us & implies what music is to be used in worship & assembly is just as important whether or not there even is any music at all. And, as what you stated, "No more slander"? Since when in this case was I slandering you or anybody? All I stated for the most part in the starting statement was concerning the misconception concerning exercising righteous judgement. In addition to in all of this is you accusing me of having what you know as a "critical-spirit" - Of the which by the way I don't anyway, on either side of the pendulum. But you know what though? From reading & simply knowing the Scripture: We as believers in Christ ought to be realistic in the sense of seeing things as they are in accordance with the Scripture. The reality of the matter is, yeah sure: Hide behind your abundance of words in which you intend to bury anybody under who simply doesn't agree with your unconditional defense of a particular church gathering.
But at the end of the day anyway, you honestly strike me as a manipulative jerk. I sincerely & wholeheartedly understand that may sound a little bit too rude; of the which by the way I'm sure you'll latch on too that as well.
The thing is: I'm already at peace only to some degree with myself; knowing that I have long since unfollowed the herd back several years ago. But we as believers in Christ should nevertheless keep in mind "...when Joram saw Jehu, that he said, Is it peace, Jehu? And he answered, What peace, so long as the whoredoms of thy mother Jezebel and her witchcrafts are so many?"
Alot like what you're doing: the apologists of such ministries are willing to waste away a massive amount of their time defending their musical enterprise built on the traditions of men & after the rudiments of the fallen system: By pointing their fingers at whom they hysterically percieve as those dreaded “Pharisees” - while they have three fingers pointing back at them.
@@seandattoli8467 Wow. Just wow. I guess whenever anybody ever does dare says or questions anything in defiance toward what Flatirons Community church teaches in any way, shape or form: It's immediately & automatically regarded as "evil speaking" & "slander." Sounds like nothing more than marks of a cult.
Jesus didn't carry a Bible, he WAS the WORD!
I enjoy listening to your podcast very helpful and very informative. I appreciate all your videos and have learned alot. Praise God for your ministry!!
Stay away from elevation churches....it is all for their own gain.
John 3:16.
God love's the world but all must be born again to reap the benefits of his love
John 3:3-7
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God
Luke 12:59 - 13:5
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish..
Biblical salvation includes ; hearing, believing ,repentance ,water baptism by immersion
Mark 16 : 15-16
Matt 28 : 19-20
Acts 2:38
God Bless
Well Flatirons is not Elevation.
@@minister.WayneScott the thief on the cross got robbed then
Can you point to where he was baptized by water immersion...or any other form before dying? Being baptised does not regenerate nor does it make us holy. Jesus himself was Baptised yet he was sinless. So we ought to be careful elevating water baptism to spiritual baptism.
@@scriptwriter1268
Rebellious and disobedient people used the absence of information on a subject or person in the bible to justify present rejection against God's clear commands .
The thief that was crucified along side The lord Jesus Christ was under the
Old Covenant (OT)which was still in force while Jesus was alive so He Jesus Christ could and did what he deem fit including the promise of paradise to a repentant sinner.
New Testament
After the death and resurrection of the Lord
all who believe the gospel must repent and be baptized in water for the remission of sins.
Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38
Acts 8:12-16 ,36-38
Acts 10:40-44
Acts 16:30-34
These are not my words they were here 2000 years before i was born . you can argue with the creator all you wish, i will obey
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2Ti 4:1 ¶ I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Joshua 24:15
As Joshua told the ancient Israelite's
to chose between God or idols
i say to you now, you can obey or you can argue, rebel and disobey.
True, sadly I have family that defend them.
LOVE NOT THE WORLD,IF ANY MAN LOVE'S THE WORLD THE LOVE OF THE FATHER IS NOT IN HIM..✝️
Does anyone sing the Psalms anymore? It is commanded for NT worship (EPH 5:19; COL 3:16).
I do NOT think this kind of music should be played in church,but I wouldn't call the music "satanic" and I don't have a problem with the a lot of songs outside of church that I would not approve of being in church. So what I'm saying is,sing hymns in church,and listen to the other music for fun.
Sunday morning is a time for corporate worship of true believers.... The main job of the teaching pastor is to feed the sheep. You do not see the concept of seeker sensitive 'churches' in the Bible.... The Holy Spirit will lead sinners into a relationship with Christ.
You are like a voice crying out in the wilderness. Both physically and spiritually in this case!
Blessed work brother! You don’t attack, nor condescend but lovingly teach. Sadly All the blind have thumbs downed this video to the tune of 50% but we know this is to be expected... so if even one single viewer was moved by this video you have served the body. --Love you from a far Brother
@@seandattoli8467 Right on, brother. I was "home schooled" in scripture by my mother in strict KJV old English, and i have had a very strict interpretation of scripture that made me cringe through nearly every sermon i ever heard preached in a church. I saw hypocrites in the parking lots and recognized the power of mob mentality. I was loathe to attend flatirons because it was so huge, but God brought me to my knees one night and a small voice told me that she found great comfort through the teachings at flatirons. So i went. Bible in hand (i was the only person i saw with a bible..) And Jim began a series that he said was the very foundation of this church, the series was on the 23rd psalm.
I wept in the last row.
Sobbed.
I knew that psalm inside and out and my mother always taught me to reach for it when i was in trouble or lost. And here in this mega church, it is its foundation. God brought me to a safe haven that celebrates His word above else. Teaches clean scripture, directly and with a kindness that resonates with each person.
God is good.
Then...
My husband had always been a devout atheist. With a degree in philosophy from CU, he is proud of his intellectual understanding of thinking and life in general. We met in a philosophy class, although my major was physics.
During this rough time, he saw that i needed flatirons, and in a show of support (which in itself was a miracle of sorts), he offered to go to church with me one Saturday.
I was stunned.
He listened to Jim and said, "wow, this guy really knows his stuff. Aristotle talked about this.."
And he has continued to watch Jim online since we moved to Austin. He is so close to realizing who Jesus really is..he had decided that God is actually real, and maybe his Jewish ancestors really did record history correctly...so close! ...and it is this church that is leading him to eternal life.
This church.
I am so grateful for this church.
Shift is wonderful.
So, I totally agree with everything you stated, the Holy Spirit runs deep here and uses everything in it's path to teach the truth with love.
- PEACE
@@seandattoli8467 Plus God can use whatever He wants to reach people. I have sung along to the radio and purposely re worded some of it, or just told God, "I'm singing about you...not some'body.." Just because it isn't a hymn or even a Christian authored song, doesn't mean it can't be used to glorify our father.
Karen's. They're everywhere.
To those who are calling out BEZELT3 as a "hypocrite" for exposing these pastors, keep in mind that it's only hypocritical if you call out a specific sin in someone else but you're guilty of that same sin.
Stuff like this makes me weep. May the Lord forgive .
I went to a so called "contemporary church" it was a nice for a few weeks coffee bar, pop concert type atmosphere but I began to see some flaws ! It was mostly younger people, they had to many collections ? the sermons where weak on doctrine and there was little if no reverence for God ! In fact one of the church leaders sat through a sermon with his feet up on top of the seat in front sucking a lolly pop doh! The pastor attended a fellowship meeting with RC priests ? But the seal I got a while after leaving was they had Creflo $$$$$ come speak 😖
@@seandattoli8467 I don't see any generalisations here.
I hear you. I’ve been to lots of those churches too. I thank God He called me out of there. God bless.
There are SO FEW churches who actually do what you urge at the end of this video. I used to be Pentecostal, and would never go back, but I will say that one thing the UPC church taught me is a reverence for the Lord and godly sorrow for my sin. I haven't attended a church since then that takes sin and worship as seriously as it should be.
I like to ask myself this question: how would I worship if Jesus Christ was physically standing in the room in front of me? While eating a muffing and sipping coffee? I think not.
It’s amazing to see how many people don’t even understand what “Church” is truly about.
If the pastor has an unbiblical view of the church so will the congregation.
@@seandattoli8467 Aktually….I have been there. One time is all I needed…….
@@seandattoli8467 I go to an independent reformed church. No need for a suit.
Enjoy your seeker sensitive rock music for worship though.
A question, what do you think of Mike Winger?
I enjoy your video breakdown. It’s a shame there is so many false prophets, but one day Heaven will open up and this craziness will be judged. Thank you Jesus, for dying on the cross and forgiving me, a sinner. I repent and pray that each day I get the chance to share the “Good News”. In Jesus name I pray, Amen!
"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."
[1 Corinthians 2: 2]
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
[Galatians 1: 8] ✝️
@@seandattoli8467
'Self-righteousness' means a person believes they are cleansed and saved without Jesus Christ's sacrificial death on the Cross for all their sins, no matter what other god they believe in.
I fail to see how you reckon that those who believe the latter of the above paragraph are 'self-righteous'.
The Bible says 'self-righteousness' is *NO RIGHTEOUSNESS* at all, and in fact is nothing more than filthy rags to be thrown into a fire.
ONLY the pure and holy blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness and furthermore He removes our sins completely and remembers them no more.
Anyone who can beat that has never been born and never will be.
Cheers!
✝️🇦🇺
@@seandattoli8467
You're asking people to reveal private information to satisfy your need to know to other's relashionship to God and/or their church affiliations.
*That's not going to happen and rightly so.*
You come across as a mature person, so if people make statements you regard as 'sanctimonious, holier-than-thou, arrogant, prideful, etc', then why not ignore them or comment graciously to correct them. Immaturity is often the reason for such.
Take care that you are not judging others by your interpretation of the way they comment to put their point of view forward. That doesn't mean not challenging error, but there's a way to do that without the judgment.
Cheers!
✝️🇦🇺
@@seandattoli8467
I take it you're comment may have more to do with the presenter's video content.
The Flatirons church enters the public domain when making videos of their services, so they do leave themselves open to being challenged publicly.
The presenter is not saying the church, pastors or members are 'hell-bound', but making a point by challengibg some of the theology (or lack thereof) by the pastors from the Biblical perspective to highlight the secular content of the meeting that is a corrupting influence. "A little leven, levens the whole lump" as you would be familiar with from Scripture.
Challenging error is good stewaldship of the Gospel and I commend the presenter for the way in which he is doing just that. Scripture is clear about such, viz:-
"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
[James 5: 19-20]
✝️🇦🇺
@@seandattoli8467
I think you go way too far in your lack of historical accuracy bc the 'witches' that were burned at the stake by the unholy roman catholic church were born again Christians who refused to bow the knee to papal apostacy by becoming 'catholics' in the Luciferian system.
They've candestantly been murdering and persecuting Bible believers ever since; not to mention covering up all the pedophiles in the ranks.
Brush up on your history before you make such outrageous statements!
✝️🇦🇺
@@seandattoli8467
Why did you delete your last comment?
Do you not understand that all persecution and murder, such as you refer to, is only carried out by those who despise God and their fellowman?
I can call myself a 'green frog', but unless I live in a pond and croak, I'm not a green frog!
The same applies to those who call themselves ''Christian' then persecute and murder others in God's name. They will receive their just reward eventually.
Being a steward and watchman of the Gospel to correct those who misuse it for their own worldly gratification is commanded by God; but it's a major over-reach accusing them of being capable of burning people at the stake for same. Be balanced in your comments, please!
✝️🇦🇺
Is that a BB Kirkbride Thompson Chain I see in the background?
What's with the Debussy "Clair de Lune" loop??? as the opening background music???
It sounds like a theme from one of Rachmaninov’s piano pieces playing in the background at the beginning.
Is it the thing anymore for the speakers to speak 1000 miles per hour?
paul gay I noticed that too. I’m only 32 years old, but I cannot handle it. No surprise though in an age where we all pull out our smartphones if I sense boredom for even three seconds.
The music my church uses is overall doctrinally correct, but the style has been evolving to that of a louder, concert-type atmosphere. It is distracting, and some people actually leave the sanctuary while it's going on, and come back when it's finished.
Good you should leave, let the new believers come in if you are already a believer because some people enjoy it.
And so *that* is the defining criteria of Christian music - "because some people enjoy it"? Actually, after a recent survey of members, it was determined that it was too loud, and they're making some changes.
No i could go into why they are reaching the younger generation and if you want to be logical and look at stats of these old churches that are dying go ahead and google them. Please don't take one word and just argument off of that. I really would like real critical thinking skills in what Flatirons is doing. They are reaching people. Where's your joy brother.
The seeker friendly church is about one thing: MEMBERS! It is a business. A 501 (c) non profit entity that enriches or fills the pockets of the lead pastor and “his chosen” few. More members, more tithes. Entertain the members and more will come to the show! The formula is simple. Cool pastor with shirt tail out and denim (holes optional in the pants) pants, a great light show, power point slide show with worldly music and coffee shop and whalaw! You’ve got a mega church. Mushy message, sinners welcome (no Bereans allowed) and let’s go looking for another campus to get some more unrepentant sinners!
This is spot on. I worked at a large church and observed this first hand. They are a business that hides behind the guise of non-profit. All about multiplication and bringing in more and more money to fuel their machine. I love growing churches, it means that people are getting saved and becoming part of the kingdom. But I saw so much spiritual manipulation and perversion by the leaders of the church, that it makes me sick. Great comment....very accurate.
These kinds of churches with lights and smoke are beyond me. I guess I just getting old.
Yeah lights...so bad. 😂😂
Keep it up. Keep attacking the bride over nonessentials. Dangerous game
Ironically, the more ancient orthodox churches have light (lots of candles and stained glass) and smoke (incense). You’re not old enough lol
@bezelt3- thank you for taking the time from your work schedule to bring us this. Much appreciated. Flatiron and many more are the perfect examples of "churches" trying to "be relevant" and for me, this is an excuse for them to not preach the Gospel. And why would they avoid preaching the Gospel? Because the message of the cross calls them to die to themselves, and see themselves as God really sees them. Instead, they give these self-help quasi-phycological "sermons."
Series like this are very popular at churches these days. I worked at a large church for many years and we regularly did a series called "The Playlist". We would spend a month each year trying to be as over the top as possible to draw in unbelievers - secular music, concert setting, photo op stations, free popcorn and soda, carnival in the parking lot, etc. For some reason our creative team and Lead Pastor felt that we had to copy other ARC churches and be hip and cool and relevant by turning our church into a club atmosphere because according to him, that was going to reach people and fill the seats.
The problem is that whatever you win them with, you win them to. So if you win them with flashy, over the top secular concerts......they expect that every week. And when we would return to "normal" church our attendance would plummet. Why? Because we basically gave the non-believers something cool and fun to do on the weekend, but we did not give them the Gospel. Yes, we would wrap some Bible verses around the rock concert and tell people all the great things that God will do for them, but we would not tell them about living a life devoted in obedience to the One who had saved their soul. We made sure we gave them a nice, flashy, me-centric gospel but we didn't give them Jesus. Me-centric doesn't work.
Series like this are totally hollow. If you are a believer for any length of time, you will be left feeling as if you received nothing from the message. I am all about Paul's Corinthian approach of becoming all things to all people, that he might save some.....but this isn't it. This is the church gone astray.
WHAT is he wearing?
Exactly what I asked myself as soon as I saw him. Doesn’t feel right.
This is what steals your money and sells you bullshit with icing on it and they call it a cup cake!
Jeremiah 23:23-30
23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?
24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.
29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? 30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 4:1-4
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Can you suggest a church for my family. We've attended seeker friendly churches in the past that have very similar worship services. We then visited an Assembly of God church that wasn't much different. We visited a UPC church, but don't want to get caught up in incorrect doctrine regarding the trinity. Is there a denomination that is closest to correct sound biblical preaching?
Probably something baptist, no church is perfect. I hope your family has found a solid church by now though :) a church that practices church discipline is a good sign of a Biblical church.
If you want a church that has biblical worship look for an exclusive Psalmody church.
Independent Baptist. In all honesty though, Pentecostal churches are the only church that approaches worship with the reverence and awe that Jesus deserves. It's a shame their doctrine is wrong.
Linkin Park????!!!! Now THERE'S a good Christian group....NOT!!! WHY are "Christians" playing the World's music???
I mean to be fair, they are like the only rock band ever that keeps the cursing to a minimum, doesn't sing about drugs or sex, and don't use immodesty in their videos.
You ask why ............They hate Jesus and his word so they seek after liars
pay close attention to verses 3 and 4
2 Timothy 4:1-4
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
I think people should try to keep in mind that sometimes God can use something secular to speak to you but God also calls us to be discerning in our spirits and gives us patterns to follow for prayer and worship.
While God used a Linkin Park song to bring me back to Him about 11 years ago I would never think to sing that same song in church because the song doesn't point to Jesus Christ in any way, shape, or form. It simply says that, "if I could change I would." The song made me realize I *could* change and so I did. The song is now meaningless to me because it only tells a partial truth and merely has sentimental value because it was a stepping stone on my way back to God's grace.
I believe this church has good intentions but, as the saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
That’s a good word my brother.
chipputer . ya i underdstand u i had a siimlar experience .if someone is far from God like most of america is he can use someone in the middle even though God isnt in the middle ground . if ur that far from God he can use someone in the middle to get u to reallize u need get closer..i was realy living a sinfulli and i cant say that God used less sinful music at one time but it did make me realies that i didn have to be like everyone else and eventually i did repent and turn to Christ.God doesnt want us to stay in the middle He said be hot or cold or He would not be happy with us.
@@michaelquintana678 He actually said, I would rather you be hot or cold, but because you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth.
If a pastor wants to quote from a pop song or novel or movie during a sermon to make a point, I have no problem with that. I am concerned when the worship team performs a pop song. At that point, it seems the world is being praised and the attention shifts off of Christ.
When he said, "build our own..." I thought he was going to make a Build a Bear reference.
That isn't what he was referring to. Even Bezelt3 didn't say there was anything wrong with their content. We all do have very different ideas about who Christ is. Some are 95% right...and 5% wrong. Others are closer to 30/70. That's reality. The pastor here goes on to show WHO Jesus is and because this is one of at least 52 lessons taught in a year, it doesn't stop there.
Perhaps you forget that Jesus did not come for the righteous but for the sinners. They use secular songs to illustrate the need to have Jesus in your heart and life. The lyrics of secular music cry out in pain and the sermon is geared to address that pain. They are not promoting secular ideas about God or Jesus. If you are in doubt as to the fierceness of belief at Flatirons that the only way to God is through Jesus, look at the series on the 23 psalm- Pastor Jim uses it to define the vision at Flatirons.
I wouldn’t be there if they were not preaching the absolute gospel.
I don't think he got that. The message of the music illustrates a need not an answer. It's ok to sing a song that poses a question or illustrates a need when you can reveal that the answer is Jesus.
Somehow I strongly doubt this is the case
@@jrguitargeek well said.
This is how you know these people are not filled with the Holy Spirit. How can your heart be glorifying Him through a secular song lavished with filthy language.
Agreed - Even though they actually didn't sing any profanity at all, I am sure they had it in their hearts, so we should judge them accordingly.
Douglass Prishpreed Matthew 7:1, or Luke 6:37.
You have no authority to judge. None what so ever. Open your bible.
Kellen Kerr how dare you judge me you hypocrite!
You're making some big assumptions here... Based on this guy's video - did you actually go watch any of the services yourself? Or are you basing your opinion (judgement) on what this guy has provided in his video without any other context?
Thank you sir for your work for Truth.
Thank You for throwing some light on the present day worship which is spreading like a cancer throughout the world...
Believers are becoming carnal
Amen, agree with you totally.
"I don't like props" ? Show me a scriptural justification for this. Seems like your own personal preference. Injecting that into an otherwise useful commentary does yourself a disservice. Keeping your personal preferences out of it and sticking to scriptures will improve your credability.
All they do is let the world creep into the church more and more until you cannot tell the difference...and of course, it's always about money...make the sheepeople comfortable, keeping those buckets full.
"All they do is"
Perhaps read the testimony below of one of the members you're persecuting...invariably to make yourself feel better or to feel that pride well up. Its makes people feel very powerful and content with themselves.
Perhaps invest in investigating Flatirons and other churches more before attacking. You got this one wrong. You and even I may not agree with every single thing they do...just as I don't agree with everything Lutherans do etc., but it does not mean God is not changing lives, growing people or that the gospel isn't being communicated. There are countless stories of transformed lives at this church. Some are listed in the comments.
You're treading into dangerous territory when you begin attacking Christians. God gives grace to the humble and his disciplines his children. Do not take the position of The Father or the persecutors.
Dig deeper than the surface.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT AND TRUTH.
to all the people who are like this person my answer Matthew 9
a lot of this same thing was said about skillet and others the funny thing is that skillet and others helped to bring me back to Christ woe to you who judge for you will be judged
10Later, as Jesus was dining at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with Him and His disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
12 hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice. " For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Exactly. The church should speak the language of the culture, not condemn it. This talk just builds walls between the people who need Jesus and the church.
Don’t forget we are not to have anything to do with evil, not to adopt the things of the world into our worship
its simply as Jesus said . dark light mathew ch 6 or 7 if ur light is dark then how great is the darkness..
Instantly back at home from the wilderness. That I call supernatural. ;)
Christ said to call him father abba. If God is our father we should be blessed to approach him as a child approaches his father....with love. no fear no anxiety
There is a level of respect that a child should have for a Father. A Father is not a buddy or a friend. God is more than an ordinary Father, he is the creator of everything, deserving all worship and reverence.
@@aleclyons7766 No what you call respect is actually fear. Respect must be earned it is not given freely like candy at a parade. This only comes after a relationship is developed and a certain amount of maturity is attained. Your comment is nonsense. I do not fear the creator he is my father I do not have to cower to him ever.
@@launchone260 Reverence is not cowardice.
Proverbs 1:7
Proverbs 8:13
Matthew 10:28
Psalm 111:10
Psalm 33:8
Luke 1:50
We are called to worship and respect the eternal God who is the creator of all things and is justified in whatever he does.
See Isaiah 64, Romans 9
@@aleclyons7766 who said anything about cowardice??? Do you understand the English language??? Obviously your an idiot and do not even understand the spoken language. REALLY???? MORON
@@launchone260 you said
"I do not have to cower to him ever"
in your 2nd comment near the end.
to cower is cowardice, thats the definition. So to answer your question, "who said anything about cowardice?", it was you.
It's simple: When you walk into a "worship" service, where it's all about the singer (stage, spotlights, kit and caboodle), walk on.
Flatirons church does an incredible outreach with the jails and prisons. There are vans of people who are in programs of correction that come to church. Having music that they recognize and can hopefully view in a different light after the sermon is powerful.
Let those of you without sin, cast the first stone.
Totally taking that verse out of context.
im surprised they have not done The Talking Heads - Psycho Killer and attempt to tie it in to Saul before he was converted or even why not use The Talking Heads - Burning Down The House and tie it into the judgement of God. Now, if they use a Dire Straits song, then we have some issues :)
If pastors feel they need to draw people by any means in the guise of exposing them to Jesus.Heres a hint,,IT WONT WORK! !!!!
Read Tozers book The Pursuit of God. Everything centers on our desire for Jesus. Elevation worship has some incredible songs that draw young people to the heart of Jesus and we have no right to deny them this experience. MY GOD PEOPLE PRAY INSTEAD OF CRITICIZING! THE DEVIL WANTS OUR YOUTH! WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT REACHING THEM, HANDING THEM A HYMN BOOK?
If the Devil is after the young people as you say he is-(Don't get me wrong: Because he obviously is). So therefore: How exactly is popular entertainment churned put by one of the most corrupt industries in existence, that is primarily from within the secular context: Going to somehow assist in helping steering the young people away from the snares of the Advesary? If anything: it's counterproductive.
Within the spiritual landscape of today's Christiandom: There are those of whom bootlick the popular entertainment industry: by embracing its given methods & messages(even going so far with the secular context) - Under the deceitful cloak of "reaching people." Because when an individual defines terms incorrectly: One then goes into error. Because in all truth: Reaching is simply preaching & proclaiming the Gospel of the grace of God to them. When one preaches the gospel to that given individual: They've reached that lost person. But unfortunately: Much of today's Christiandom has vehemently denied this truth concerning, what the Scripture calls: The foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. And because of this, among other things: some local but rather assemblies have become centers of entertainment more than anything.
The thing is, as I stated elsewhere: The primary means by which anyone comes to God in this dispensation of the grace of God: Is simply putting one's faith & trust in what Christ has done at the cross of Calvary: That Christ died; was buried & rose again on the third day; and ascended up into Heaven & sits at the right hand of the Father. And the primary response to this is simply put: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & thou shalt be saved." And NO justification & embracement of popular entertainment is absolutely needed, nor is it necessary or called for.
‘Draw young people to the heart of Jesus’ ? What does that even mean. Do the young people hear about sin, the need for a Savior and repentance ? I would assert they aren’t hearing enough of the Gospel to truly become Believers
Some if not ALL of the musicians he mentioned have sold their souls for fame and fortune.
(See the documentary “ They Sold Their Souls For Rock n Roll.”)
Why would you expose your congratulation to THAT??
Welcome to Tucson!
Just curious - is this a serious video? Or am I being punked right now?
I think God is pleased that even secular music can be used to illustrate who God is.
It’s not like Jesus left a set list of approved music.
I used to attend this church early in my walk..... I left for this reason. They were playing Linkin Park, Imagine Dragons, Bruno Mars, and even Hozier take me to church. Horrible. The pastor Jim Brugen had to get up to defend their use of this music in a whole sermon. Basically, aligning with seeker friendly mentality. It's a mega Church, seeker friendly, and waters down the gospel.
You speak of verses and the effect the Word of God alone should have on us and I appreciate that. I don't want or need "melt my face" secular music and narcissistic "preaching"...I read Revelation 8:1 and must stop to contemplate how "loud" the silence would be..."When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour." Teach about that...bring our focus to the Lamb how terribly awestruck all of heaven will be when it is time for the wrath of God to be poured out. Teach the TRUTH...all of it...rather than watering it down and teaching a false gospel that will not truly save anyone and leave the lost subject to God's wrath!
The lead singer of Linkin Park just committed suicide btw.
How is that relevant?
Kellen Kerr it's not. They're grasping at straws here
who they? ....don’t you love it that you make a comment a year ago and it comes back to haunt you? 😂
AAAHH!! If I could vomit right now I would. I can’t stand the constant reach for edginess and faux singer/song writer depth. I hate it so much. The church needs to get out of the habit of copying the world and it’s endless indulgence in the appearance of instability, brooding and mental illness.
Where is it written HOW someone should come to God? Does it really matter if the ultimate result is that we come to Him? This is my church and I stand proud and loud because when I went to 'conventional' church and my mother died? That church clergy lied to me and my father and took money that we paid for the rosary and they still call themselves Christians. I do not have time in my life, as it seems you do, to stand in judgement of anyone especially a church that I know nothing about. So for me, you may stand in judgement all you want, but I ask you? Wouldn't it be worth more if you put this energy and effort into something of value and positive and meaningful? If you don't like this church, that is fine. But don't sit back in your chair and pontificate on things that you know not of. It is your opinion and you have every right to express it. I just would rather hear your thoughts about your journey from your perspective. That would be something that a person could benefit from and enjoy and learn.
I'm proud to call Flatirons my home. I love the passion and the honesty that they put into everything they do. It's not fluff. They don't sugarcoat. They call the spade a spade. And they bring people together just like every other church does. Because it's different and does things that are not of a 'specific' ideology does not make them any less important to a heart who has found a home and love for Jesus. At the end of the day? That really is all that matters.
p.s. Thank you for taking the time and bringing to light once again why I'm passionate about Flatirons Community Church!!!
Patty Lyn S please can you send me the link to any sermon from your church that talks about our sinfulness, the need for forgiveness, the importance of sanctification, of discipleship, id be interested to listen to one
The primary means by which anyone comes to God in this dispensation of the grace of God: Is simply putting one's faith & trust in what Christ has done at the cross of Calvary: That Christ died; was buried & rose again on the third day; and ascended up into Heaven & sits at the right hand of the Father. And the primary response to this is simply put: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & thou shalt be saved." And NO justification & embracement of popular entertainment is absolutely needed, nor is it necessary.
I agree that secular music should not be used in church worship but disagree on the reasoning. Many popular secular songs have very offensive lyrics. However, secular references during church can be used as a metaphor for teaching. We are afterall part of a world of sinners and we can't live completely separate from the unbelievers.
I almost threw my phone against the floor. There's only one Jesus, the one from the New Testament.
I LOVE Linkin Park. I have photos of them on my walls. But their music doesn't belong in a worship service.
My brother and his wife attended Flatirons. They held secular rock concerts. That's what hooked my brother.
Thank God you're not like them, huh...
And by the way.....if anyone doesn't like Flatirons Church....that's great. It is very overcrowded but, they keep building more campuses to accommodate all of the people that do want to attend a real church. They don't need people that try to find fault in anything and chase people away. Please just find a church that you are comfortable in and go there!
Todd Corrigan As far as the music itself is concerned: May I ask, how then, would you respond to the following Scriptures?
Colossians 3:15-16 "And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."
Ephesians 5:19 "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;..."
Sure....First of all, Peace of God rule in our hearts. I don't see any of that here. It is just "Christians" tearing the church and each other down. That in my opinion is not right and I don't blame people for thinking Christians are hypocrites.
But, I digress....that is not what you asked about. The music:
They sing hymns and spiritual songs! They have grace in their hearts. That is what most churches skip over...Grace. Flatirons believes in grace and truth both! With every songs they sing, in my opinion, sing it to bring glory to God. How do they do this? You have no idea how many people that have given up on God and the church that come to know the Lord because Flatirons is not the same as every other church!
If you don't believe the way this church does....great, find a church that you are comfortable in and support them! I went to several other churches. This is the only church that I've been a part of that teaches only what is in the Bible.
Todd Corrigan Sorry, but I'm going to have to apologize because I should have clarified myself what exactly I meant by that question. Because I'm quite aware that Flatirons will perform some Christian music with along side a good number of performances that most would consider as secular pop & rock or whatever it may be. Because what I really meant to ask is how exactly does Eph 5:19 & Col 3:16 would be fit-in & be consistent with the latter mentioned before hand when it actually is done.
This was a little convoluted to read (for me), but I think that you are asking how the 'secular' music ties into these scriptures. All that I am saying is that regardless of if you believe that it ties into these scriptures, it brings thousands of people into a place that they would never go and it brings glory to God through that.
I don't know anywhere in the Bible that says that you have to have a cross on the church or wear a suit and tie. But, many churches do that. Where should a homeless man go to church? Probably at a place that doesn't look down on him for not having fancy clothes. Did Jesus just hang around perfect "acting" people? No. Did he not talk to drunkards and prostitutes? Church is for imperfect people. Play some different music and some of these people come to a church for the first time in their life. Love these people and allow them to see who Jesus is. We cannot save anyone....only God can do that. The church should be a place that loves all people and allows them an environment to find Jesus. That will look different to different people.
As long as a church preaches the truth that is in the Bible, I don't care how they do it. If someone wants to criticize Flatirons without ever going there one time.....well, stop in and see for yourself. Talk to the pastors there and voice your concerns. I defend what I believe is right, I defend my country, and I defend my house and family.
If people get hung up on the music that is played, wait until they here the title for one of the series preached at this "cult" (not my thoughts, but the thoughts of many of the self righteous people) called Flatirons.....ready to open up that can of worms? The series:
"Grow a Pair"
I really have said all that I can and don't have time to explain it to everyone. I will not be responding more. Everyone can look into it for themselves, or just bash the church (God's house) in a way that "Christian" people always seem to do.
Peace and love to all of you!
Todd Corrigan Hello, I do apologize that I did sounded a bit convoluted. But other than that: All I was doing was simply trying ask a question. But yet you back at me twisting what I said in the sense of putting words in my mouth & completely changing the subjext of what my question basically addressed; also known as "...reframing the discussion..."
The title to one of my more recent uploads is: A Better Way: A Call To Repentance From The Unconditional Pragmatism in The Body of Christ - And A Return To Our Sufficiency in Christ & of The Gospel.
th-cam.com/video/H-9-eL1ZhVs/w-d-xo.html
Problably just one of the things I want to make note of this video is this: As far as relating to the unsaved: There is nothing in the world wrong with making & being friends with people in general with obvious perimeters depending upon the circumstances. I personally believe strongly in building bridges of relationships to people on a personal level - and using that as a platform to simply preach the Gospel to them. And I can base these convictions squarely upon the word of God which demonstates this very thing. And of course we are to "relate" to people - but it all depends on how one defines what is meant by that one word. Because we are to relate to them in the sense of understanding & coping with their problems from a Biblical perspective - And therefore helping them go through their circumstances. And in corrospondance with building bridges of relationships to them: we are to be a witness & examples to the lost. One of the most exciting things about personal evagelism is that it is something that is open to every Christian. Going back to George Thomas's three New Testament methods: every Christian can pray; every Christian is called to live a godly life and every Christian can speak about Christ." In his infinite love & wisdom, God has put the greatest privilege in the world within the reach of every Christian believer. But here is one of the only few exceptions: Don't ever let the unregenerate of whom you minister to drag you through spiritual sewage of this wicked system that's not in consistency with the walk & newness of life in accordance after the Gospel. Because we are not to accommodate or to add to those problematic circumstances in their lives with where they're at with God. In fact, when a Christian does so - it ruins their testimony. This is where the fine dividing line really stands.
I want to say also that I completely embrace the beautiful truth of love & compassion towards the lost & a spiritually dying world. And we the Believers responce rooted in the love of this truth should be to geniounly reach them with the proclamation of the Gospel of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ. And all of this in addition would be to comforting the feeble minded and helping & supporting the infirm. What complicates things, is when it comes to how we believers redefine this beautiful truth of walking in love within the Body of Christ & towards the lost. Because quite sadly, in these times of many perils facing us, we can get severely off track by misinterpreting, distorting, and eventually turning it on its head. One of the ways this happens is by embracing the messages & methodologies of this fallen & wicked system that has engulfed our culture under the misleading cloak of lovingly accepting its victims. In other words: They have completely redefined & turned it around backwards to basically mean to accommodate on a public level of ministry to the satanic sewage churned out by an industry that is rooted in rebellion against God & His word rather than to truly rescue those who have been caught up in its lascivious riot. Not only is not helpful for all those who attend these publicly held services within the Body of Christ: But is in fact very unhelpful; if not, at times: very spiritually destructive & abusive and if not, outright counterproductive.
You stated: "We cannot save anyone... Only God can do that." And I know for myself, I'm in total agreement with that & therefore would say a definite amen.
And if it is truly Jesus Christ our Saviour alone who does the saving: then another question which would just be one of the things the title implies is this: Is Christ alone sufficient enough? Is His Gospel alone sufficient enough? And if so: Then why do we - work on our part - to accommodate it by dragging it through the Satanic Sludge to crawl up out of the sewer of an industry that is rooted in rebellion against God & His Word?
All I'm trying to ask is: Should we feel that there should be a need to accommodate to the Gospel by our own methods that are at variance with the Scripture? But yet those same methods "glorify God" by the standard of "...whatever gets them in the doors"?
props. I am not that big of a fan of them. They wanted us to use them in preach lab. They called them visual aids or visual illustrations.
But this is just your personal preference. Let's see some scripture against use of props in preaching. I suspect that even those who do not use physical props still use mental props.
Go with me here...flatline is like Flatliners, which starred Keifer Sutherland, who also played in Lost Boys, which is about vampires....WHICH ARE OF SATAN!!!! This guy is on to something.
It's actually Flatminers. They worship the strip mining industry. Also of Satan, but I wanted to set you straight, brother.
I'm not sure what miners who take their clothes off has anything to do with this, but it's clearly of the devil.
I think Oswald was murdered by the mafia or cuba or something, so I think you might be off base. However it's these moments of uncertainty, that we must look to the teachings of Bezelt3.
Finally I’ve asked others to do videos on this church we went it’s horrible another false church
🎯💯
Linkin Park; is officially a modification of a "Lincoln Park" that the leader supposedly is paying homage to.
But the conspiracy theory that the reference is to a Canadian MK Ultra child-torture military base seems more plausible to me, based on the depressing, warped music they produce & knowing what I now know about the music industry. I think the "official" wikipedia story is a cover.
the guy who preached the sermon you were talking about at the beginning should take over. he seems to know what's he's talking about. the lead pastor sounds like a guy who wants to make money
Pastor:
"Sometimes we just play certain songs cause their AWESOME!", " ...and we like it that way!"
Me:
Pees my pants in laughter
They're. If you can't get that right, hermeneutics is likely not your expertise either. How about stop causing division. You actually no nothing about this church. Have you ever been? You can attack the bride of Christ then?
Flatiron??. Who even comes up with these church names?? These churches love CCM and the potential to cross over to secular songs
The name Flatirons comes from a mountain range near the church.
Understanding, in all aspects, religion and education, works to connect someone's prior language (knowledge) to specific language (science vocabulary, or religious language).
Jesus and his disciples talked about doing this in the Bible, using cultural stars to connect reasoning to the Bible.
You should make a video of self-reflection comparing your nit-picking to the Pharisees.
Clearly this band employs the use of crunchy guitars. Those
same crunchy guitar sounds can be heard regularly with bands like KISS (Knights
in Satan’s Service), ACDC (Against Christ Devil’s Children), and Ozzy Osbourne
(Black Sabbath, also known to eat the heads off of bats on stage.) Where do we
draw the line? Bill Gaither clearly never needed these crunchy sounds. Paul
Simmons the lead singer of Kiss also breathes fire like a dragon and drinks
blood. Jimmy Hendricks was the first to use these sounds, and he is rumored to have kneeled down before his guitar, and set it on fire as some sort of Baal worship. Makes you think.....hmmmmm
Not only crunchy guitars, but a 4/4 bass drum beat, which is well-known to be a Satanic creation of Satan. Pagan cults have been known to employ 4/4 bass drum beats (DW or Yamaha drums, I think) while practicing their human sacrifice rituals. To your point, did Keith Green ever employ a 4/4 bass drum beat to accompany his human sacrifice rituals? I think not. You only see that in really Satanic "Christian" rock. Like the Imperials.
BamaMimi uh no they didn't. Harps, trumpets, and cymbals are not Satan Guitars and Ba'al drums. I would be supportive of trumpet rock (as long as there is no drum beat) but this rubbish is not approved or sanctioned by BezelT3
BamaMimi arguing with this stiff old man is pointless. He's not following the Word of God. He thinks that whatever this bezel boy is saying is gospel and clearly we know it's not. So don't waste your time man.
Wow. I try not to comment on TH-cam since it's an active minefield and every mine is set to go off with the slightest vibration, but....
KISS does not stand for knights in Satan's' service. That was made up by other people and the band just let it happen as it drew them more media attention. His name is GENE Simmons, not Paul. He doesn't drink blood, he spits out a red liquid for shock value. Many people breathe fire as part of an act. It's an act. And that act and the church ranting about for decades has made him a millionaire. He and the rest of the band loved it when parents, teachers and preachers yelled about them. It brought them more attention and more fans.
AC/DC does not stand for against Christ devil's children. It's what it says it is; alternate current and direct current. The guitar player's sister saw it on the bottom of a sewing machine and they thought it would make a cool band name. Again, like Kiss, another made up story involving abbreviations that were probably created and the band let it happen as it drew them more attention.
Ozzy doesn't bite bats heads on a regular basis. He did it one time, regretted it and paid a high price in rabies shots after the fact. But again, don't muddle a good story with the truth.
Hendrix set his guitar on fire at the Monterey International Pop Festival in June of '67 as part of his act. To the best of my knowledge he only did it once and he was probably out of his mind on acid or something when he did it. I'd say there's a better chance he came out of his haze a few days later and said "I did WHAT to my guitar!?!?!" than kneeling before it as an act of worship.
The church did more to promote rock and metal in the 70's and 80's than a lot of promoters did. And in the end the rock stars where the ones laughing all the way to the bank because of all the attention we (the church) brought to them.
And be careful about those crunchy guitars. I've heard a song or two by The Cathedrals that had a crunchy guitar in them. Maybe one or two out of the hundreds they did, but they did do it. And I know for a fact The Imperials used crunchy guitars. And of course Gaither probably doesn't use crunchy guitars. It doesn't lend or go with the style of music.
Wow. I haven't heard arguments that bad in years. The only "hmmmmm" this makes me think is "hmmm, I thought the church was getting smarter when it came to debating about secular music. Clearly we still have some that are still using 80's arguments that should have stayed in the 80's". We have issues in the church when it comes to music, but it's not what kind of guitar is being used or whether drums or in it or not. It's thinks like this Flat Church using secular songs and other churches using songs by groups like Hillsong and Bethel. That's your real issue, not idiot comparison of sound or such.
Why don't we just go ahead and say it's a sin to drive a Ford as many drug dealers, bank robbers and such drive Fords? Better yet, Nissans. I'm not a big fan of imports, so let's make owning and driving imports a sin. Just don't say Toyota. I might by one of those someday.
@@Jaymze13ISS stands for Knuckleheads In Service of Stupidity.
Yes they will make you flatline and be dead before Jesus comes.
Its nice to know that one day these very disrespectful men will be silenced.Youre right,i cant stand that casual buddy,buddy attitude that reduces God to my barbeque buddy!
Thank you for your work brother !
Prophet of the Lord here. All of you who doubt this church are now condemned to hades until you change your mind. Your souls are now going to descend into cold oblivion and darkness. Second guess your judgements. God invented Good. Read Genesis 1.
You honestly can't be serious...
The audacity ! Thinking that type of music is pleasing to God
Flat iron church needs to be ironed out of this world
Throwing this out there,
Anyone who reads the Bible knows how radical Jesus was to the religious leaders of his day. I dont claim to have all the answers, but I can say im glad someone is being the Jesus who dared defy the normal, religious system and its leaders with a different thought.
I really try not to judge people where they are. We are all in a different place. But it looks REALLY bad when the religious leaders (who are supposed to be more in touch with God) sit around their multiple studios and pick apart another Christian. That's sad.
I guess Hi Tech churches are the thing anymore.Think about this,I mean seriously think about this"What would the Apostle Paul do watching a thing like this????
talk about worldly wow & again the fruit of the NIV & or Esv, nkjv, ect... ect... I challenge anyone reading this to pick up the true word of God & read it & I'll bet u that it will speak to u like no other book on the planet.. plz get away from the perverted books that r not even close to the 1611KJV
I'm a Christian but I'm tired of hearing this name 'Jesus' coming from these people's lips because they're using it in vain.
He who is without sin....
The big 🚩🚩🚩 right off the bat , it sounds like club music 😳🤦♂️. 2nd , is that concert .
These guys, in the examples have the appearance and actions of chronic pot-heads!
I have a custom sweet Jesus on the dash board of my 51 ford.
We' re singing secular music in church now?
Churches use the worship time to sell themselves. And my brother you are helping them do it. Like they say,good or bad publicity, is still publicity! You may be pointing out some things that have no business being said or sung in the House of God. But nevertheless you're doing their bidding unintentionally.
These places are not churches but goat entertainment centers.
to be honest who decides what is secular or not......a drum beat....a guitar riff......using a base guitar...….how about the chord of C......is it demonic or not......who decides......so does church music have to be only a piano and maybe rythum guitar and maybe organ...anything more makes it secular...…….I wonder in all truth how would bezel t3 really do if he was preaching and lets critique him like he does others...see if hes sound in doctrine.....