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There a lot of opinions on red dots, and obviously a lot of disgruntled youtube viewer comments. I will say this, Ben's thoughts on Red Dots has been a breakthrough for me personally. I'm no expert but since watching a bunch of Ben's videos on Red Dot method and drills using target focus my shooting dramatically improved in the last 30 days. I'm a fairly new shooter, but in the last 3 IDPA monthly matches I went from the very bottom of the pack to maybe close to halfway up the pack. The price was certainly right, free adivce from an expert is rare, I almost feel guilty lol. I did buy your book "Practical Shooting Training" though, and it has also been a big help. Thanks for the advice!
Same experience here. Used occlusion and Ben’s dry fire book. Moved from the bottom of the field to a 2nd place on an IDPA match with my first stage win in 3 months of consistent practice (15min/day). Shooting 5 matches per month .
When you used the words “index” or “confirmation” it clicked for me. Then I practiced. IMO, the referenced video pulled it all together. Can’t wait to try it on the range.
The concepts of index and target focus are fairly intuitive when you unlearn what many were taught was the “correct way to shoot,” being focused on the front sight. Even if you think you’ve unlearned it when using a dot chances are you still probably haven’t actually. I came from a world of Clay target shooting where it’s all about target focus, proper index on the shotgun, and eyes driving the gun on transitions (the old adage is you break the clay with your eyes). When I came more seriously into the world of practical pistols (not just shooting at a B2 target) I actually struggled with front site focus as it felt like I was fighting nature a little bit. Everything is a big circle and now I know it’s all about target focus and index which as a shotgun shooter from my early days is so much more intuitive to me as to why it works.
This is something that bugs me to no end. When I hear people say “slow down, focus on the front sight.” And im thinking “no no no. In competition, that makes you insanely slow. In self defense situation, that makes you dead.” Ive tried correcting a few people but I can only do so much. Its even worse that in the Class required to get my state’s CCW are usually taight by FUDS. They give terrible advice.
@@piouswhale This is not 'FUDD' advice, that is sound advice IF you shoot solely for precision. That is like calling information for long range shooting BS just cause one doesn't care much for wind data at 100m. Don't go around saying that is wrong. Context matters. A well rounded shooter can do both. Step over the ignorant ones and challenge yourself. Sub second draw, quick splits? Now hit this 2'' target at 25m consistently. Call it a hostage rescue target if you want to.
@@onpsxmember hold your roll there Bucko. Anytime someone is telling you to be front sight focused in a competitive or self defense situation is giving Fudd advice. Even at 100 yards shooting my Glock 17, I am looking at the target, and the front sight is more fuzzy over the target. I am not staring at my front sight post. In self defense situations, that would get you killed. I guarantee that not a single Grandmaster shooter is starting at their front sight post, even when shooting at 40 yards.
@@piouswhale Reading is hard right? Competition does not mean just IPSC, USPSA, IDPA. Get that through your head. Different disciplines, different goals requiring a different approach. Just cause a fish can't climb a tree doesn't make it useless in the water. Just because it isn't necessary to ring steel at distance, doesn't mean it is wrong if the goal if the target is much smaller and small groups are the goal. Go challenge yourself differently once in a while and train what you're unfamiliar with.
I've had people look at me like I'm a wizard when I shoot irons with both eyes open and I'm target focused 😂 doing this has made me good with red dots as well. It just translates.
It's because for years the tactical gun industry has said that you need to be front sight focused at all times which we know now is ridiculous. I think they have finally caught up now lol
"My opinion can beat up your opinion." But seriously, I have been shooting non tactically for 40+ years, and doing it without any training, or desire for such... until the last couple of years, which is why I am here watching your videos. (and it has been really hot down here in the deep fried south) Anyway, I greatly appreciate you sharing these core concepts. As a near daily shooter (I live on my range) I have become curious why I don't improve beyond a certain point. I can already see. I got two slide riding red dots this year, (Venom and Holosun) and couldn't really work out how to utilize them. I appreciate you sharing the formulas that I will be working on going forward. Thank you for sharing these things.
I shot everything occuluded for nearly 2 years. At first, during matches, the target would disappear. Obviously from switching to dot focus. Sadly, I still struggle with keeping hard target focus, though mostly when a difficult target is between easy targets. The struggle is real!
Ever since your reactive v predictive explanation of an ‘acceptable sight picture’ I haven’t missed a vid. For me that’s up there with Vogel’s’ don’t grip the gun like a monkey squeezing a banana’ with regard to a paradigm shift in my shooting. Great stuff amigo, appreciate what you’re doing here.
There were a handful of shooters that removed the sights completely, only using indexing, looking along the lines on slide. That works to a degree but very perishable skill.
The benefit of being target focused in practical shooting is an objective truth whether using irons or a dot. What type of dot you prefer is the subjective component. Personally, I like 3-6 MOA dots that are very clean in a large window . I can shoot just as effectively with a sparkly 2 MOA dot , which is the way HS 507’s present to my eyes and prescription., I just don’t enjoy it as much .
I am really glad you mentioned the question about big window dots. Small window dots work fine on rifles because of always having a stock to index off of. A smaller window dot on pistols like you say give less margin for error. Think of a giant PC monitor on your pistol vs a soda straw. One will always be easier to pick up if your presentation and index is slightly off. Or from an awkward angle etc. Not many people realise that dots on rifles vs pistols have completely different learning curves. A pistol gives you no reference points. So when starting out, higher irons, vulcan type reticle and other aids and assists help to train you in to the right presentation so you eventually dont need them. Thanks.
I got into the dot game with the holosun acss with the giant outer ring thinking it would help me learn. This created a crutch, delaying my index and stagnating my performance. Upon Realizing I removed the outer ring, gained index through training and quickly progressed. Index is everything.
New to the dot on handguns been practicing as much as possible tried Saturday but I am stricken with severe arthritis it was pretty bad that day so didn’t get much time in but yes they are awesome definitely a game changer
@@gator7082 Unfortunately, yes. My first pistol red dot is a 6 moa and in daylight it is a perfect circle, but in low light conditions it will still starburst. My first and only rifle red dot is a 2 moa and even in daylight it will starburst. So until I spring for laser eye surgery my best options are either larger moa red dots or etched reticles like in my rifle scopes.
I guess I need to buy some of your books. I think I've figured out some of this on my own with just iron sights. Once I committed to shooting with both eyes open I had to come up with a way to shoot. I bought a brock string too and use it. I've found that there's a huge mental component and it reminds of shooting trap.
Ben, I love it when you roast theoretical firearms scientists. The comment section frequently causes a forced reminiscence of being in middle school and listening to a group of kids argue with each other.. except their wrong. But, they're so certain they're correct. I'll take an order of TH-cam comment expert, extra well-done.
Holly shnikes I just realized something when you pointed at he camera, I had a clear view of your eye. I am ambidextrous ( The real kind!) and just realized I switch my view between both eyes no matter what hand I'm using. WOW!!!!! The little shit makes a big difference when you realize your problem and can admit to then lol. Thanks for all the tough love.
Ben, know you don't give a shit but the dot on your PDPs is the 509t. I think it's the gen 1 dot, too, which had some QC issues with maintaining contacts from the battery to the sight (got one on clearance from pro shop Tim and had to send it in after a few months - Holosun sent me back the X2 revision).
Best advice in this video is, "if you are stretched for money don't go pay for training. You're going to have to train yourself." The "take a class" culture is overdone and makes ppl waste big money on shit instructors
Hey Ben- Have you noticed any skills or physical abilities that have gotten better or worse with age? I think it’s cool that after all these years you are still pushing yourself to get better. Depending on the sport, athletes might peak anywhere from their mid 20s to late 30s. What has your experience been with shooting?
Appreciate you telling it how it is. Notice you are running a lot of the Defender XL and recently 507 Comp. Getting ready to get another red dot and wonder if you recommend one over the other.
I'm not sure if it's the correct technique but I've learned to break my 2nd 3rd 4th etc shot based on where the streak of the dot is in the recoil. I focus on the first shot and the follow up isn't really a clean sight picture. More of a timed streak.
Ben, I was practicing predictive shooting yesterday with doubles, i was in the A zone almost entirely but group wasn't too tight. Splits were .17- .23 mostly about .21. Then did bill drills and was mostly in A zone again not too tight group, but my misses were 6:00 low maybe a few inches even tho i was looking at upper chest. I did that around 2.5-2.7 seconds from concealed. You have any advice for me? I have about 1500 rounds total on red dot. Thanks man
I have bad eyesight so this may be unique to me, but when I occlude the dot, my non-dominant left eye sees the target about 6 inches low and left. Is there some magic I’m missing?
I have not tried occulded shooting much (maybe 300 rounds or less so far), I usually shoot about 200-300 rounds a week (in my budget) and dry fire about 15-30 min a day. I like the concept but I am curious if Ben has a take on this. My left eye is significantly stronger than my right eye. I shoot pistol right hand but rifles left due to eye dominance. Is there any real benefit from having the dominant eye be the one that is occluded as you mention here? That's what I've done at the range and I have a hard time getting my right eye to stay target focused. Dry firing I can pick whichever eye I want but I know my index is set for my left eye. Should I try to retrain so that the right eye is the one behind the optic and use my stronger left eye for target focus or should I leave it the way it is just get better with looking through my right eye for target focus as to not fuck with either established index? I am from Canada, shoot IPSC though I don't care too much about competing. Just want to improve my own skills but need to be in IPSC up here to shoot from a holster or shoot on the move. The other thing I know I fuck up on a lot is establishing good grip after a reload. I always feel my support hand goes limpish the more mags I change. Would love to hear any tips you have for reindexing after reloads on the move, that seems to be where I fuck it up subconsciously.
i have no idea what occlusion is. I am your standard city kid but also hunting lover and I know absolute zero about this side of firearms. But I sure have been watching a lot of videos lately and yours got suggested onto my feed. So thanks! These are all completely new concepts to me even though I’ve been hunting with deer rifles and waterfowling with shotguns for 30 years. haha. so much to learn!!!! And I want to. Tips on a step 1? ok step 2 after I get the Taurus G2C I have my eye on as a starter gun?
Occlusion is just where you cover the front side of the optic’s glass. You still see the dot with one eye, the other eye can see the whole target. Both eyes focus on the target. Then the dot is superimposed on the target. Occlusion is mostly a training method to break the habit of focusing on the sight instead of the target. You don’t need to occlude your optic to focus on the target.
I have no familiarity with what the gun or dot should look like when the gun is pointed at the spot I’m looking at. It’s all muscle memory for me. How do you develop this if you’re not looking at those things?
I''d share the link where Ben explains it like the following but I don't remember the title so here it goes: You sit at a nice restaurant with your GF/wife across the table when a smoking hot lady walks in behind her. You can't stare at that lady or you get busted. You have your eyes focused on the GF but you stay aware of the hot lady. You know she is still there. That's the dot while you visually AND mentally burn a hole in a spot on the target you chose. Go search his channel here and look at the whole classes videos. Tape the front of the sight over (occlusion) and just start.
I just switched full time to Ocluded dot shooting. Even tho I trained myself hard to look at the target, looking thru a plain of glass doesnt automatically make me focus on the target. For first 2 weeks, I had worse recoil control than with Irons. I love stock glock irons for target focus
Is overanalyzing your grip worthwhile, or, if it feels good enough during a stage run, should one just focus their time on the bread and butter drills?
Im an expert with 2 weeks of dot experience. :) Got myself 507comp, cause was overwhelmed by dot size opinions. For dry fire I like 2 moa dot and shooting accurately 25 yard is kind of impossible in my opinion with bigger dot. Can do a smilie with 2 moa dot at 25 yards in A zone. So I guess Im learning a little. Still at page 30 on Bens DFR book.
Most people don’t realize either that you can do a lot of this by dr firing. Learn your gear and form before you waste your time, money, and ammo on a range thinking you are getting work done when all you are doing is looking stupid. If you don’t know what you are doing don’t spew information to others acting like you do. You are dangerous when you do that. Thank you Ben for these videos!
I have an occlusion question. How often should I do it? I notice a small difference in my performance with and without, I'm slightly better without. I've heard a few times that it should have no impact on my performance. I shoot occluded around 40% of the time, should I push that up to most or all the time? Or should I remove the expectation that it'll have no impact? The change in my times or consistency on drills is probably somewhere around 10% better without occlusion.
Great videos, Ben. I've asked this question a few times, so my apologies for posting it again. One of the hardest aspects of shooting for me is being able to quickly and precisely transition my eyes from one small spot to another on relatively featureless objects (e.g., plain USPSA targets). This is much easier when I have a salient aiming reference such as a black paster, but this is obviously not always the case. Do you have any tips on how to train this?
Regarding iron sights, some people's eyes truly cant handle shooting target focused with both eyes open. I spent a year trying to do that daily in dry fire and it just doesn't work with my eyes, my vision scrambles on transitions. I just have to close one eye and target focus. No problem shooting with a dot though, whether occluded or not.
Another great video Ben. I really appreciate you repeating and reinforcing key concepts; I know I need to hear things multiple times before they stick. Thank you for putting this information out there. Also, have you ever thought about getting a Platypus?
I have watched quite a few gun tuber videos and your videos have been very valuable doing the drills you prescribe and listening to your discussions and the back and forth between your viewers and you . Not only have my skills improved significantly but also the dynamic between you and your viewers is entertaining. I have even overcome my shame at my case/ mos. habit ( though only my close friends know ) . Thanks for doing these videos, by being able to focus on one step, drill it and make it routine and then move on to the next area you are doing a great service at a great price. When I can get something through your pro shop I do as thanks for this service , as a suggestion perhaps a pro shop membership that would allow you to sell one or two brands of ammo for practice / competition through the shop at a sufficient discount to make it worth the nominal membership and sell ammo only in case / multi case quantities. This could potentially lower one of your variable costs also ( but is difficult to lug around ) . Thanks for your service to this community.
Hey Ben! I shoot in Standard so I'm always shooting irons. Would you say I keep running behind by doing this and would be better off going with a dot or keep honing my iron sight shooting and use the dots in my off time to practice being target focused more?
Check your grip and presentation. If you do lots of reps with the same results it engrains that want you don't want. When you got it down, you can also train how to fix things after a bad draw that you'll immediately spot and change how you pull the trigger to still make it work.
When working to develop index and train to be target focused should I be shooting occluded for a significant portion of my practice session? How much occluded vs not occluded?
I’ve shot carry optics since the beginning and used occlusion successfully for dry fire/practice based on reading about Bindon aiming for bomb sights. I recently started PCC (I’m 71) and was surprised when occluding at the range on 20 yard plate rack that all my shots were hitting low left by at least a foot. Can you explain why this happened with a PCC and not with my handgun?
At 4:25 you state the size of a dot effects "how apparent a red dot is." From the last few videos, you stated over and over that anyone who needs to "find" a dot is inexperienced and a bad shooter. Am I to assume too that you believe a red dot being "more apparent" is bad and anyone who wants something to be more apparent is inexperienced and a bad shooter? All this without seeing any of these commenters shoot. Kind of like anyone looking at Jim Furyk's gold swing and concluding his odd swing makes him inexperienced and a bad shooter. Or looking at Eric Grauffel's handgun grip and without seeing him shoot determine that he is inexperienced and a bad shooter because of his particular grip.
I think you are overthinking this (and perhaps taking it a bit personally). When you are target-focused, you will still be aware of the dot, it just won’t be what your eyes are focused on. The size of the dot can impact your awareness of it and how much it draws your attention when trying to remain target-focused. That’s all there is to that component. What size dot works for you is really dependent on your preference and your personal visual-processing biases. For me, a larger dot on pistols is helpful because it guides me to be less focused on the sharpness of the dot and more focused on the target - it is easier for me to be aware of the blob when target-focused. When it comes to “finding the dot”, that is more about developing an “index”, or hand-eye coordination with your gun. If your dot is not presenting where you expect consistently, that can only be resolved through practice. You need to build, in your brain, a relationship between what your eyes are doing and how your hands feel when the gun presents correctly. The goal end-state is that you should be able to look at a small spot and bring your sight there without thinking about what’s happening with your hands directly. Work your draw and pay attention to what your hands are doing and how that affects how your dot presents on a small-spot. The more that you experiment and practice, the faster you will find what grip and hand-orientation works best for you so that you can focus on a small-spot, draw your gun, and trust that your dot will be on-target without having to manually adjust it with your hands. This is also a relationship that has to be maintained through consistent practice. I find that if I don’t practice for a couple of weeks, I lose consistency. Hope that helps clear things up.
@@ripdoinksinamish While I'm not a world class shooter, I've been training for over 25 years and over the past 4-5 years have become reasonably proficient with red dots. My issue is with Ben or anyone else nitpicking the chose of words someone uses in a comment to absolutely criticize them. This was not constructive criticism. Besed only on the choice of words used by the commenter, Ben DECLARED the commenter was inexperienced and a bad shooter. Common sense says that an item that is more apparent is more friggin apparent, which is not a bad thing. Ben actually criticised someone who was proud of the fact that by changing his grip his groups had become much tighter. It is absoltutely ridiculous that Ben should bend over backwards to criticize someone who, though practice and listening to experts, is shooting tighter groups, That is the goal!!!!
@@jasonands1962 The goal depends on the context, the rule set one follows. I shoot a lot of static stuff too where small groups matter. Quickly hitting a bigger area like an A-zone it becomes less important. There are also times where one has to push to failure, not caring about groups at all and focusing on other aspects in recoil. Ben sees this through his lense of his variant of competition shooting and as a teacher in that regard. The overall context matters. It's depends how someone asks what answer they'll get.
@@onpsxmember I agree, and I appreciate the intelligent reply...different from most of the replies where the lemmings blindly suck up to Ben simply because they adore him. The issue many commenters had was with Ben assuming he know everything about the person because of a single word that was used in the original comment. "Find" can be interpretted many ways, and only a self-absorbed know-it-all would assume his interpretation is tha only acceptable interpretation. Lost quite a bit of respect for this channel when Ben refused to admit there was a chance he could be wrong. Must be great to be perfect.
Your red dot tips have been great! One thing I've noticed in dryfire with my CCW is on my draw to first shot, my dot appears on the target around 70% of the time. When it isn't in the window, I don't fish around or look for it, but can generally pull it into view just by "feel". So I'm pretty sure I have some level of index developed. I'm wondering if you have any tips for taking an okay draw index in the 70-80% accuracy range and bringing it up to 95+% particularly with smaller windowed CCW-style dots?
@@n4d3m4nI’d agree, more reps with correct grip, pressure and indexing. I can tell almost every time if one of those components is off as I’m drawing my gun to my sight and already know my dot positioning will be off. A smaller window of course will exacerbate the issue.
Yeah, I've definitely noticed it improving as I practice more consistently. Always have the most issues when I fumble the grip from concealment unsurprisingly.
Index is completely hand-eye coordination. Work on building the relationship between proper presentation and how your hands feel in your mind. You need to associate the proper orientation of your hands with being on-target visually so that your eyes can drive the car.
Don’t really understand how window size can affect things, but dot size can’t… Isn’t your whole point that the dot should be bang on in front of your eye every time you draw it, and every time it recoils?
@@ShootingSportsandAccesso-sd9li I mean, you have to admit, a bigger dot would TECHNICALLY come back into the window slightly faster (by like a micro millisecond). So if a larger window size provides benefits to the shooter, then a larger dot has to as well - even if said benefits are less than what a larger window offers.
@@jeffwoods2599 I don’t see how that isn’t the same concept to you. It’s something that aids in imperfect sight on target. A larger dot is easier to see in the corner of your eye so you don’t have to chase it during recoil
Hey Ben. I’ve been a gun owner and casual shooter for most of my adult life. I dry fire for a few minutes a day, however, I always get frustrated by my pistol accuracy at the range. I also notice than no matter what I try, my POI moves more than I want it to when I live fire. It’s almost always low left and I can call them. I’m shooting two eyes open…what should I try next. It’s more common when I have poor grip and my hands get tired as you often point out. However, is the corrective measure just more live trigger pulls, stronger hands and trigger finger, or just the obvious more dry fire. Thanks Ben. I think about the fundamentals of shooting way more now that I follow you. I think your impact for the community will be huge.
More than likely your firing hand is starting to influence the gun as your support hand tires. Trigger control at speed drill should help. Grip the gun firmly but you don’t have to grip it so hard to try to control recoil just grip it enough to keep your hands together and on the gun. Watch the doubles drill videos, his videos on grip, and honestly his fundamentals class he’s posted to learn the objectives to shooting (predictive vs reactive), etc.
Spend time in dry fire, for about a week or two, not focusing on where the dot is, not focusing on the target, just focus on getting a solid firm, but not tense, grip, and slowly add pressure to the trigger. Start with your finger on the trigger and slowly add pressure. Work your way to your finger on the slide and then moving to the trigger. You should not see the sights move as you do this. Your hands should have firm pressure the entire time. Focus on what it feels like to not have the sight move. When you're comfortable with that, do it one handed, strong and weak hand. Your trigger control will suck at first, but over time as you focus on not disturbing the sight, you'll train your trigger finger on what to do. Keep a somewhat firm grip one handed, I like to think of opening a jar motion. then add in a draw, add in target transitions etc. Work on this target focus stuff. You will want your trigger control to be sub conscious when you're target focused. That's what I did when I had similar problems to what you're saying, and now the last time at the range I'm hitting 20 yard targets from concealment in 1.3 second and feeling awesome. It's like magic when it all comes together because all I look at is the target and all the drilling I've done goes on in muscle memory to come together to hit the spot. You'll get there!
There are basically two fundamentals to pistols: (1) point the gun where it needs to shoot and (2) make it go off without moving it. Pointing is the easy part (aligned sights or dot on target). The shooting is the “hard” part. It’s impossible to say what your problem is (weak support hand, milking with primary hand fingers, crosspulling trigger, recoil anticipation, or any combination of those) without watching you shoot.
@@nflippo8 trying that. It almost feels like I develop a knot in my finger mid trigger pull. It’s only with striker pistols though. Rifle it doesn’t happen.
There a lot of opinions on red dots, and obviously a lot of disgruntled youtube viewer comments. I will say this, Ben's thoughts on Red Dots has been a breakthrough for me personally. I'm no expert but since watching a bunch of Ben's videos on Red Dot method and drills using target focus my shooting dramatically improved in the last 30 days.
I'm a fairly new shooter, but in the last 3 IDPA monthly matches I went from the very bottom of the pack to maybe close to halfway up the pack. The price was certainly right, free adivce from an expert is rare, I almost feel guilty lol. I did buy your book "Practical Shooting Training" though, and it has also been a big help.
Thanks for the advice!
Same experience here. Used occlusion and Ben’s dry fire book. Moved from the bottom of the field to a 2nd place on an IDPA match with my first stage win in 3 months of consistent practice (15min/day). Shooting 5 matches per month .
It makes zero difference to me whether my dot is occluded or not. I suck either way 😂😅
When you used the words “index” or “confirmation” it clicked for me. Then I practiced. IMO, the referenced video pulled it all together. Can’t wait to try it on the range.
The concepts of index and target focus are fairly intuitive when you unlearn what many were taught was the “correct way to shoot,” being focused on the front sight. Even if you think you’ve unlearned it when using a dot chances are you still probably haven’t actually. I came from a world of Clay target shooting where it’s all about target focus, proper index on the shotgun, and eyes driving the gun on transitions (the old adage is you break the clay with your eyes). When I came more seriously into the world of practical pistols (not just shooting at a B2 target) I actually struggled with front site focus as it felt like I was fighting nature a little bit. Everything is a big circle and now I know it’s all about target focus and index which as a shotgun shooter from my early days is so much more intuitive to me as to why it works.
This is something that bugs me to no end. When I hear people say “slow down, focus on the front sight.” And im thinking “no no no. In competition, that makes you insanely slow. In self defense situation, that makes you dead.” Ive tried correcting a few people but I can only do so much. Its even worse that in the Class required to get my state’s CCW are usually taight by FUDS. They give terrible advice.
@@piouswhale
This is not 'FUDD' advice, that is sound advice IF you shoot solely for precision.
That is like calling information for long range shooting BS just cause one doesn't care much for wind data at 100m. Don't go around saying that is wrong. Context matters. A well rounded shooter can do both. Step over the ignorant ones and challenge yourself. Sub second draw, quick splits? Now hit this 2'' target at 25m consistently. Call it a hostage rescue target if you want to.
@@onpsxmember hold your roll there Bucko. Anytime someone is telling you to be front sight focused in a competitive or self defense situation is giving Fudd advice. Even at 100 yards shooting my Glock 17, I am looking at the target, and the front sight is more fuzzy over the target. I am not staring at my front sight post. In self defense situations, that would get you killed. I guarantee that not a single Grandmaster shooter is starting at their front sight post, even when shooting at 40 yards.
@@piouswhale
Reading is hard right? Competition does not mean just IPSC, USPSA, IDPA. Get that through your head. Different disciplines, different goals requiring a different approach. Just cause a fish can't climb a tree doesn't make it useless in the water.
Just because it isn't necessary to ring steel at distance, doesn't mean it is wrong if the goal if the target is much smaller and small groups are the goal.
Go challenge yourself differently once in a while and train what you're unfamiliar with.
Thanks for helping us out on the proper use of a red dot. We appreciate you, Ben!!!
‘I like big dots and I cannot lie…’
I don't know man, I just don't think I'll be ready to try occlusion until I make B class.
Why? Just try it. Put a plaster on your dot and dry fire.
@@M1911jln got eeem
I'm B class and I literally compete with an occluded dot.
😂
I've had people look at me like I'm a wizard when I shoot irons with both eyes open and I'm target focused 😂 doing this has made me good with red dots as well. It just translates.
Absolutely agree.
Same thing shooting a dot and going back to irons. It greatly improves your index after a while.
It's because for years the tactical gun industry has said that you need to be front sight focused at all times which we know now is ridiculous. I think they have finally caught up now lol
Idk about looking at you like a wizard because this is standard shooting stuff. Only completely fudd minded or noobs aren’t target focused.
neural optical triangulation yields better results, imo. look i dunno, i am
just tryna use fancy words in the comments sections😅
"My opinion can beat up your opinion."
But seriously, I have been shooting non tactically for 40+ years, and doing it without any training, or desire for such... until the last couple of years, which is why I am here watching your videos. (and it has been really hot down here in the deep fried south)
Anyway, I greatly appreciate you sharing these core concepts. As a near daily shooter (I live on my range) I have become curious why I don't improve beyond a certain point. I can already see.
I got two slide riding red dots this year, (Venom and Holosun) and couldn't really work out how to utilize them. I appreciate you sharing the formulas that I will be working on going forward.
Thank you for sharing these things.
I shot everything occuluded for nearly 2 years. At first, during matches, the target would disappear. Obviously from switching to dot focus.
Sadly, I still struggle with keeping hard target focus, though mostly when a difficult target is between easy targets. The struggle is real!
I've seen the Professor shoot matches occuluded. Nice flex!
Ever since your reactive v predictive explanation of an ‘acceptable sight picture’ I haven’t missed a vid. For me that’s up there with Vogel’s’ don’t grip the gun like a monkey squeezing a banana’ with regard to a paradigm shift in my shooting. Great stuff amigo, appreciate what you’re doing here.
I like to occlude my irons. I just tape a big piece of cardboard to the backplate of my gun and send it
😂
There were a handful of shooters that removed the sights completely, only using indexing, looking along the lines on slide. That works to a degree but very perishable skill.
The benefit of being target focused in practical shooting is an objective truth whether using irons or a dot. What type of dot you prefer is the subjective component. Personally, I like 3-6 MOA dots that are very clean in a large window . I can shoot just as effectively with a sparkly 2 MOA dot , which is the way HS 507’s present to my eyes and prescription., I just don’t enjoy it as much .
I am really glad you mentioned the question about big window dots. Small window dots work fine on rifles because of always having a stock to index off of. A smaller window dot on pistols like you say give less margin for error. Think of a giant PC monitor on your pistol vs a soda straw. One will always be easier to pick up if your presentation and index is slightly off. Or from an awkward angle etc. Not many people realise that dots on rifles vs pistols have completely different learning curves. A pistol gives you no reference points. So when starting out, higher irons, vulcan type reticle and other aids and assists help to train you in to the right presentation so you eventually dont need them. Thanks.
I came to this channel for the humor, I stay for the great information.
You can try occlusion at any time just put your hand out in front of one side of your face and stare at something you’ll “see through” your hand
I got into the dot game with the holosun acss with the giant outer ring thinking it would help me learn. This created a crutch, delaying my index and stagnating my performance. Upon Realizing I removed the outer ring, gained index through training and quickly progressed. Index is everything.
I was planning on making the same decision (mistake). I'm glad you posted this. Now I know not to make myself a crutch. TY
New to the dot on handguns been practicing as much as possible tried Saturday but I am stricken with severe arthritis it was pretty bad that day so didn’t get much time in but yes they are awesome definitely a game changer
6:10 I like big dots and I cannot lie. -person with astigmatism
Do you see a noticeable difference between smaller and larger dots? I've heard this but never heard anyone talk about it.
@@gator7082 Unfortunately, yes. My first pistol red dot is a 6 moa and in daylight it is a perfect circle, but in low light conditions it will still starburst. My first and only rifle red dot is a 2 moa and even in daylight it will starburst. So until I spring for laser eye surgery my best options are either larger moa red dots or etched reticles like in my rifle scopes.
@@Komisherdo Copy that, I've been wondering about the larger dots on some of these new products, especially as it relates to pistols.
I guess I need to buy some of your books. I think I've figured out some of this on my own with just iron sights. Once I committed to shooting with both eyes open I had to come up with a way to shoot. I bought a brock string too and use it. I've found that there's a huge mental component and it reminds of shooting trap.
3:40 when I ask what dem hands do 😅
This is gold. 🏅🏆
Ben, I love it when you roast theoretical firearms scientists. The comment section frequently causes a forced reminiscence of being in middle school and listening to a group of kids argue with each other.. except their wrong. But, they're so certain they're correct.
I'll take an order of TH-cam comment expert, extra well-done.
Holly shnikes I just realized something when you pointed at he camera, I had a clear view of your eye. I am ambidextrous ( The real kind!) and just realized I switch my view between both eyes no matter what hand I'm using. WOW!!!!! The little shit makes a big difference when you realize your problem and can admit to then lol. Thanks for all the tough love.
Ben, know you don't give a shit but the dot on your PDPs is the 509t.
I think it's the gen 1 dot, too, which had some QC issues with maintaining contacts from the battery to the sight (got one on clearance from pro shop Tim and had to send it in after a few months - Holosun sent me back the X2 revision).
Best advice in this video is, "if you are stretched for money don't go pay for training. You're going to have to train yourself."
The "take a class" culture is overdone and makes ppl waste big money on shit instructors
Do you ever come to oregon to do training?
Yes.
Hey Ben- Have you noticed any skills or physical abilities that have gotten better or worse with age? I think it’s cool that after all these years you are still pushing yourself to get better. Depending on the sport, athletes might peak anywhere from their mid 20s to late 30s. What has your experience been with shooting?
Appreciate you telling it how it is. Notice you are running a lot of the Defender XL and recently 507 Comp. Getting ready to get another red dot and wonder if you recommend one over the other.
I'm not sure if it's the correct technique but I've learned to break my 2nd 3rd 4th etc shot based on where the streak of the dot is in the recoil. I focus on the first shot and the follow up isn't really a clean sight picture. More of a timed streak.
Ben, I was practicing predictive shooting yesterday with doubles, i was in the A zone almost entirely but group wasn't too tight. Splits were .17- .23 mostly about .21. Then did bill drills and was mostly in A zone again not too tight group, but my misses were 6:00 low maybe a few inches even tho i was looking at upper chest. I did that around 2.5-2.7 seconds from concealed. You have any advice for me? I have about 1500 rounds total on red dot. Thanks man
Ben, I am new to red dots. Where do you align the dot on the glass? What is the sight picture?
RMR HD and Holosun the top ccw red dots?
I have bad eyesight so this may be unique to me, but when I occlude the dot, my non-dominant left eye sees the target about 6 inches low and left. Is there some magic I’m missing?
You probably have a “phoria”.
This is a documented phenomenon that happens with some people due to their eyesight. I also get POI-shift when occluded.
I have not tried occulded shooting much (maybe 300 rounds or less so far), I usually shoot about 200-300 rounds a week (in my budget) and dry fire about 15-30 min a day. I like the concept but I am curious if Ben has a take on this. My left eye is significantly stronger than my right eye. I shoot pistol right hand but rifles left due to eye dominance. Is there any real benefit from having the dominant eye be the one that is occluded as you mention here? That's what I've done at the range and I have a hard time getting my right eye to stay target focused. Dry firing I can pick whichever eye I want but I know my index is set for my left eye. Should I try to retrain so that the right eye is the one behind the optic and use my stronger left eye for target focus or should I leave it the way it is just get better with looking through my right eye for target focus as to not fuck with either established index?
I am from Canada, shoot IPSC though I don't care too much about competing. Just want to improve my own skills but need to be in IPSC up here to shoot from a holster or shoot on the move. The other thing I know I fuck up on a lot is establishing good grip after a reload. I always feel my support hand goes limpish the more mags I change. Would love to hear any tips you have for reindexing after reloads on the move, that seems to be where I fuck it up subconsciously.
i have no idea what occlusion is. I am your standard city kid but also hunting lover and I know absolute zero about this side of firearms. But I sure have been watching a lot of videos lately and yours got suggested onto my feed. So thanks! These are all completely new concepts to me even though I’ve been hunting with deer rifles and waterfowling with shotguns for 30 years. haha. so much to learn!!!! And I want to. Tips on a step 1? ok step 2 after I get the Taurus G2C I have my eye on as a starter gun?
Occlusion is just where you cover the front side of the optic’s glass. You still see the dot with one eye, the other eye can see the whole target. Both eyes focus on the target. Then the dot is superimposed on the target.
Occlusion is mostly a training method to break the habit of focusing on the sight instead of the target. You don’t need to occlude your optic to focus on the target.
Do not buy a Taurus. CZs are $300 now, there's no excuse to cheap out on a gun.
Starter for what?
@@austinbuck8108thanks!
@@EdwardSnortinthanks didn’t know that yet and i’m definitely on a budget!
Mounting first red dot this week. I have only one good eye. Seems like the occlusion method is not available to me.
I have no familiarity with what the gun or dot should look like when the gun is pointed at the spot I’m looking at. It’s all muscle memory for me. How do you develop this if you’re not looking at those things?
I''d share the link where Ben explains it like the following but I don't remember the title so here it goes: You sit at a nice restaurant with your GF/wife across the table when a smoking hot lady walks in behind her. You can't stare at that lady or you get busted. You have your eyes focused on the GF but you stay aware of the hot lady. You know she is still there. That's the dot while you visually AND mentally burn a hole in a spot on the target you chose. Go search his channel here and look at the whole classes videos. Tape the front of the sight over (occlusion) and just start.
I just switched full time to Ocluded dot shooting. Even tho I trained myself hard to look at the target, looking thru a plain of glass doesnt automatically make me focus on the target. For first 2 weeks, I had worse recoil control than with Irons. I love stock glock irons for target focus
Your insights are always invaluable and much appreciated. Thanks for all the help Sensei.
Is overanalyzing your grip worthwhile, or, if it feels good enough during a stage run, should one just focus their time on the bread and butter drills?
Im an expert with 2 weeks of dot experience. :) Got myself 507comp, cause was overwhelmed by dot size opinions. For dry fire I like 2 moa dot and shooting accurately 25 yard is kind of impossible in my opinion with bigger dot. Can do a smilie with 2 moa dot at 25 yards in A zone. So I guess Im learning a little. Still at page 30 on Bens DFR book.
Most people don’t realize either that you can do a lot of this by dr firing. Learn your gear and form before you waste your time, money, and ammo on a range thinking you are getting work done when all you are doing is looking stupid. If you don’t know what you are doing don’t spew information to others acting like you do. You are dangerous when you do that. Thank you Ben for these videos!
I have an occlusion question. How often should I do it? I notice a small difference in my performance with and without, I'm slightly better without. I've heard a few times that it should have no impact on my performance.
I shoot occluded around 40% of the time, should I push that up to most or all the time? Or should I remove the expectation that it'll have no impact?
The change in my times or consistency on drills is probably somewhere around 10% better without occlusion.
I love the dry fire paster in the background.
Great videos, Ben. I've asked this question a few times, so my apologies for posting it again. One of the hardest aspects of shooting for me is being able to quickly and precisely transition my eyes from one small spot to another on relatively featureless objects (e.g., plain USPSA targets). This is much easier when I have a salient aiming reference such as a black paster, but this is obviously not always the case. Do you have any tips on how to train this?
You always make sense when talking about red dots and repeatable….
Regarding iron sights, some people's eyes truly cant handle shooting target focused with both eyes open. I spent a year trying to do that daily in dry fire and it just doesn't work with my eyes, my vision scrambles on transitions. I just have to close one eye and target focus. No problem shooting with a dot though, whether occluded or not.
The whole crouching index concept becomes super, super apparent when you use a vtac barricade
Another great video Ben. I really appreciate you repeating and reinforcing key concepts; I know I need to hear things multiple times before they stick. Thank you for putting this information out there. Also, have you ever thought about getting a Platypus?
I like Big Dots and i cannot lie 🎵🎤🎧 all other instructors can’t deny…
I have watched quite a few gun tuber videos and your videos have been very valuable doing the drills you prescribe and listening to your discussions and the back and forth between your viewers and you . Not only have my skills improved significantly but also the dynamic between you and your viewers is entertaining. I have even overcome my shame at my case/ mos. habit ( though only my close friends know ) . Thanks for doing these videos, by being able to focus on one step, drill it and make it routine and then move on to the next area you are doing a great service at a great price. When I can get something through your pro shop I do as thanks for this service , as a suggestion perhaps a pro shop membership that would allow you to sell one or two brands of ammo for practice / competition through the shop at a sufficient discount to make it worth the nominal membership and sell ammo only in case / multi case quantities. This could potentially lower one of your variable costs also ( but is difficult to lug around ) . Thanks for your service to this community.
First magic dust staccatos and now this, sixth sense indexing
Lots of good info, let's see if we can apply some of it.
Curious as to which ammo/dot zero are you running the and do you think that matters in self defense situations?
Hey Ben!
I shoot in Standard so I'm always shooting irons.
Would you say I keep running behind by doing this and would be better off going with a dot or keep honing my iron sight shooting and use the dots in my off time to practice being target focused more?
Indexing takes reps. My Dot still has COOKIE MONSTER EYES!
Check your grip and presentation. If you do lots of reps with the same results it engrains that want you don't want. When you got it down, you can also train how to fix things after a bad draw that you'll immediately spot and change how you pull the trigger to still make it work.
When working to develop index and train to be target focused should I be shooting occluded for a significant portion of my practice session? How much occluded vs not occluded?
I’ve shot carry optics since the beginning and used occlusion successfully for dry fire/practice based on reading about Bindon aiming for bomb sights.
I recently started PCC (I’m 71) and was surprised when occluding at the range on 20 yard plate rack that all my shots were hitting low left by at least a foot.
Can you explain why this happened with a PCC and not with my handgun?
Can be the different distance of the dot mounted on your pcc vs. when you hold your pistol.
Find a shooting friendly optometrist.
One problem with TH-cam vids over Instagram comments is dudes deleting absolute goober tier comments after the responses disagree.
At 4:25 you state the size of a dot effects "how apparent a red dot is." From the last few videos, you stated over and over that anyone who needs to "find" a dot is inexperienced and a bad shooter. Am I to assume too that you believe a red dot being "more apparent" is bad and anyone who wants something to be more apparent is inexperienced and a bad shooter? All this without seeing any of these commenters shoot. Kind of like anyone looking at Jim Furyk's gold swing and concluding his odd swing makes him inexperienced and a bad shooter. Or looking at Eric Grauffel's handgun grip and without seeing him shoot determine that he is inexperienced and a bad shooter because of his particular grip.
I think you are overthinking this (and perhaps taking it a bit personally).
When you are target-focused, you will still be aware of the dot, it just won’t be what your eyes are focused on. The size of the dot can impact your awareness of it and how much it draws your attention when trying to remain target-focused. That’s all there is to that component. What size dot works for you is really dependent on your preference and your personal visual-processing biases.
For me, a larger dot on pistols is helpful because it guides me to be less focused on the sharpness of the dot and more focused on the target - it is easier for me to be aware of the blob when target-focused.
When it comes to “finding the dot”, that is more about developing an “index”, or hand-eye coordination with your gun. If your dot is not presenting where you expect consistently, that can only be resolved through practice. You need to build, in your brain, a relationship between what your eyes are doing and how your hands feel when the gun presents correctly. The goal end-state is that you should be able to look at a small spot and bring your sight there without thinking about what’s happening with your hands directly. Work your draw and pay attention to what your hands are doing and how that affects how your dot presents on a small-spot.
The more that you experiment and practice, the faster you will find what grip and hand-orientation works best for you so that you can focus on a small-spot, draw your gun, and trust that your dot will be on-target without having to manually adjust it with your hands. This is also a relationship that has to be maintained through consistent practice. I find that if I don’t practice for a couple of weeks, I lose consistency.
Hope that helps clear things up.
@@ripdoinksinamish While I'm not a world class shooter, I've been training for over 25 years and over the past 4-5 years have become reasonably proficient with red dots. My issue is with Ben or anyone else nitpicking the chose of words someone uses in a comment to absolutely criticize them. This was not constructive criticism. Besed only on the choice of words used by the commenter, Ben DECLARED the commenter was inexperienced and a bad shooter. Common sense says that an item that is more apparent is more friggin apparent, which is not a bad thing. Ben actually criticised someone who was proud of the fact that by changing his grip his groups had become much tighter. It is absoltutely ridiculous that Ben should bend over backwards to criticize someone who, though practice and listening to experts, is shooting tighter groups, That is the goal!!!!
Oh yeah, Ben is a dick. He’s just a very knowledgeable and skilled dick.
@@jasonands1962
The goal depends on the context, the rule set one follows. I shoot a lot of static stuff too where small groups matter. Quickly hitting a bigger area like an A-zone it becomes less important. There are also times where one has to push to failure, not caring about groups at all and focusing on other aspects in recoil. Ben sees this through his lense of his variant of competition shooting and as a teacher in that regard. The overall context matters. It's depends how someone asks what answer they'll get.
@@onpsxmember I agree, and I appreciate the intelligent reply...different from most of the replies where the lemmings blindly suck up to Ben simply because they adore him. The issue many commenters had was with Ben assuming he know everything about the person because of a single word that was used in the original comment. "Find" can be interpretted many ways, and only a self-absorbed know-it-all would assume his interpretation is tha only acceptable interpretation. Lost quite a bit of respect for this channel when Ben refused to admit there was a chance he could be wrong. Must be great to be perfect.
Your red dot tips have been great!
One thing I've noticed in dryfire with my CCW is on my draw to first shot, my dot appears on the target around 70% of the time. When it isn't in the window, I don't fish around or look for it, but can generally pull it into view just by "feel".
So I'm pretty sure I have some level of index developed. I'm wondering if you have any tips for taking an okay draw index in the 70-80% accuracy range and bringing it up to 95+% particularly with smaller windowed CCW-style dots?
For me, just more time in dry fire is what I've done to work on that hand eye coordination. Practice target transitions dry as well.
@@n4d3m4nI’d agree, more reps with correct grip, pressure and indexing. I can tell almost every time if one of those components is off as I’m drawing my gun to my sight and already know my dot positioning will be off. A smaller window of course will exacerbate the issue.
Yeah, I've definitely noticed it improving as I practice more consistently. Always have the most issues when I fumble the grip from concealment unsurprisingly.
Index is completely hand-eye coordination. Work on building the relationship between proper presentation and how your hands feel in your mind. You need to associate the proper orientation of your hands with being on-target visually so that your eyes can drive the car.
Don’t really understand how window size can affect things, but dot size can’t… Isn’t your whole point that the dot should be bang on in front of your eye every time you draw it, and every time it recoils?
Nope.
@@ShootingSportsandAccesso-sd9li I mean, you have to admit, a bigger dot would TECHNICALLY come back into the window slightly faster (by like a micro millisecond). So if a larger window size provides benefits to the shooter, then a larger dot has to as well - even if said benefits are less than what a larger window offers.
No. He said there’s more margin for error. If it’s not in the middle you have a larger amount of room to see the dot.
@@jeffwoods2599 his entire argument is that there shouldn’t be any losing of the dot because of your index
@@jeffwoods2599 I don’t see how that isn’t the same concept to you. It’s something that aids in imperfect sight on target. A larger dot is easier to see in the corner of your eye so you don’t have to chase it during recoil
Hey Ben. I’ve been a gun owner and casual shooter for most of my adult life. I dry fire for a few minutes a day, however, I always get frustrated by my pistol accuracy at the range. I also notice than no matter what I try, my POI moves more than I want it to when I live fire. It’s almost always low left and I can call them. I’m shooting two eyes open…what should I try next. It’s more common when I have poor grip and my hands get tired as you often point out. However, is the corrective measure just more live trigger pulls, stronger hands and trigger finger, or just the obvious more dry fire. Thanks Ben. I think about the fundamentals of shooting way more now that I follow you. I think your impact for the community will be huge.
Pull your trigger back instead of down and across
More than likely your firing hand is starting to influence the gun as your support hand tires.
Trigger control at speed drill should help. Grip the gun firmly but you don’t have to grip it so hard to try to control recoil just grip it enough to keep your hands together and on the gun.
Watch the doubles drill videos, his videos on grip, and honestly his fundamentals class he’s posted to learn the objectives to shooting (predictive vs reactive), etc.
Spend time in dry fire, for about a week or two, not focusing on where the dot is, not focusing on the target, just focus on getting a solid firm, but not tense, grip, and slowly add pressure to the trigger. Start with your finger on the trigger and slowly add pressure. Work your way to your finger on the slide and then moving to the trigger. You should not see the sights move as you do this. Your hands should have firm pressure the entire time. Focus on what it feels like to not have the sight move. When you're comfortable with that, do it one handed, strong and weak hand. Your trigger control will suck at first, but over time as you focus on not disturbing the sight, you'll train your trigger finger on what to do. Keep a somewhat firm grip one handed, I like to think of opening a jar motion. then add in a draw, add in target transitions etc. Work on this target focus stuff. You will want your trigger control to be sub conscious when you're target focused.
That's what I did when I had similar problems to what you're saying, and now the last time at the range I'm hitting 20 yard targets from concealment in 1.3 second and feeling awesome. It's like magic when it all comes together because all I look at is the target and all the drilling I've done goes on in muscle memory to come together to hit the spot. You'll get there!
There are basically two fundamentals to pistols: (1) point the gun where it needs to shoot and (2) make it go off without moving it.
Pointing is the easy part (aligned sights or dot on target). The shooting is the “hard” part. It’s impossible to say what your problem is (weak support hand, milking with primary hand fingers, crosspulling trigger, recoil anticipation, or any combination of those) without watching you shoot.
@@nflippo8 trying that. It almost feels like I develop a knot in my finger mid trigger pull. It’s only with striker pistols though. Rifle it doesn’t happen.