Rommel: The Italian Perspective
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 มี.ค. 2019
- So what did the Italians think about Erwin Rommel also known as the "Desert Fox" (Wüstenfuchs)? For this Bastian Matteo Scianna looked into various sources including British wire-tapping and interrogation reports, additionally also memoirs. After all the Italians fought with the Afrika Korps, yet, there is rarely any mention about the Italian perspective.
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» SOURCES «
Scianna, Bastian Matteo: Rommel Almighty? Italian Assessments of the “Desert Fox” during and after the Second World War. The Journal of Military History 82 (January 2018): p. 125-146.
Lieb, Peter: Krieg in Nordafrika 1940-1943. Reclam: Ditzingen, Germany, 2018.
Groß, Gerhard P.: Mythos und Wirklichkeit. Die Geschichte des operativen Denkens im deutschen Heer von Moltke d. Ä. bis Heusinger (Zeitalter der Weltkriege, Band 9). Ferdinand Schönigh: Paderborn, 2012. (ENGLISH VERSION BELOW)
Groß, Gerhard P.; Zabecki, David T. (Ed.): The Myth and Reality of German Warfare: Operational Thinking from Moltke the Elder to Heusinger (Foreign Military Studies), University Press of Kentucky, 2018.
Reuth, Ralf Georg: Erwin Rommel
Ueberschär (Hrsg.) Gerd R.: Hitlers militärische Elite - 68 Lebensläufe (3. Auflage), S. 351-358
Fraser, David: Rommel - Die Biographie
English Version - Fraser, David: Knight's Cross : A Life of Field Marshal Erwin Rommel
Sigg, Marco: Der Unterführer als Feldherr im Taschenformat. Theorie und Praxis der Auftragstaktik im deutschen Heer 1869 bis 1945. Ferdinand Schöningh: Paderborn, 2014.
Pöhlmann, Markus: Der Panzer und die Mechanisierung des Krieges: Eine deutsche Geschichte 1890 bis 1945. Ferdinand Schöningh: Paderborn, 2016.
» CREDITS & SPECIAL THX «
Song: Ethan Meixsell - Demilitarized Zone
#Rommel #ww2 #ItalianPerspective
Be the kind of guy that puts a disclamer that the blurred generic desert in the background is not the one you are talking about.
This is the Internet. Someone will notice. They will speak up.
German education put its mark on this video.
German over-clarification
Austrian thoroughness.
He's holding up to the reputation of germanic peoples
I can't say I know what the Italians thought of Rommel. But i'm sure many vigorous hand gestures were involved.
Thanks for the laughs
Hahaha that's why I like italians
Seven Proxies ...also copious amounts of garlic and salami
Seven Proxies Thatsa one spicya comment! Hilarious.
As an Italian, I can confirm it
Now that's dedication, going to shoot on location.
In peru
Peru is a location
On location but hes in the wrong time period
LOL...El-Alamein! 😁😁
Someone once said Germans love Italians but don't respect them while Italians respect Germans but don't love them.
This is true
No one:
TH-cam automated subtitles: so what did the Italians think about ramen?
Noodles is noodles.
Lol actually a good question
interesting
"Notes on Accuracy: That is a Peruvian desert in the background"
Mission Passed
+Respect
Can you do a video on Giovani Messe he is basically the Italian Rommel
Alex Hammack yeah
I pray we receive a video about him
Giovanni Messe
I was thinking the same thing. He was one of the very few Italian commanders who didnt completely fail his soldiers.
In the last days in Tunisia, he was the general to motivate Italian soldiers into fighting better than the Germans did.
Rommel is such an interesting character thanks for the presentation. The Italian perspective is neglected which is a pity because the bulk of Rommel's troops were in fact Italian and the war aims being pursued in North Africa were essentially Italian.
There are classifications of the temperaments of generals and Rommel would be at the bold/impetuous end. His allied counterpart would be someone like Patton or historically someone like Napoleon's Marshal Ney.
This is a kind of general the Italians seemed to conspicuously lack so it's not surprising that Rommel had a stormy relationship with the Commando Supremo but the Italian troops under his command seem to have responded positively and the Italian army in North Africa performed much much better under his leadership.
Where Rommel was weak was in staff work, of which he had little experience or interest, and temperament where what made him a good thrusting field commander made him arguably a poor senior commander. There were definitely questions about these aspects throughout his career.
@Mists & Shadows an excellent analysis. You could probably add Model to the lead from the front brigade. A good chief of staff can make a big difference.
@Mists & Shadows Excellent. Except for one thing: The Germans were *not* within an inch of ruling Europe in WW2. More like a Galaxy.
@Mists & Shadows Your first post was deeply insightful. Your second,I simply do not know enough to comment.
The one reason I am contributing anything here is Bernard made a comment which really resonated with me. I had a German grandmother,and as a young adult I worked with quite a few Germans,then again in my forties. One pretty deep cultural/psychological behaviour I noticed again and again is a particular pattern of ignoring opinions and wishes of others,having made up their minds previously about a sort of similar circumstance. If someone comes up with a genuinely good idea only to have it shot down abruptly with no explanation why,the result of being treated contemptuously is very quickly a deep resentment,and if done to a contemporary or equal,that makes enemies fast. And then being bewildered as to why,later. It may be geographical, more emphasized in Southern Germany. How close Rommels birthplace is to my grandmother's, I wish I knew. Proud men,and Italian senior officers were that,regardless of good or bad competence,treated in such a fashion would easily create enemies for life. There really are cultural stereotypes,oh they need to be used with care,but they do exist. And I think Rommel for all his great abilities did a fairly good job of creating resentment in many of those around him. And of course he ignored logistics repeatedly,like a large number of German generals. Cheers.
Well thank goodness we saw the value of promoting mr. Eisenhauer for his staff skills. .
Italiens from Ariete armoured division were good soldiers. They even covered German retreat once.
Ariete was one of the top divisions of the war for ANY nation. And the Bersagliari were up there with the US Marines when it comes to bravery and tenacity.
@@princeofcupspoc9073 Too bad their boots were made of cardboard.
The Germans also had great respect for the Italian paratroopers, Folgore division
@@treeshakertucker5840 they had leather boots, the italian XX motorised corps was well equiped (even if it wasn't always the most advanced)
@Marcelo Henrique Soares da Silva Exactly. Shit generals and equipment, but very good soldiers
Rommel kept learning; he knew he messed up the aftermath of Crusader; it should have been a tactical axis victory but he turned it into a operational defeat.
Later during the counter offensive he managed to perform small miracles considering the logistical and strategic situations (remember the enemy had 10 times more of everything).
Call it luck, charm or brilliance, with the means available he managed to achieve some incredible results.
Also considering doing a video on Giovanni Messe; he is an extremely interesting figure, not very well known outside of Italy; but his influence extends all the way to formulation of the "definitive" peace treaties signed in Feb 1947.
medio: I find this to be very true. about learning. He saw the line in france with his 88mm anti-aircraft guns stop blank an english advance with tanks. He never forgot this, that his anti-air were as good as any other use to stop the enemy, which our side never ever learned. Even patton never picked up on that. maybe because we never developed the 88mm as our artillery was fatal enough.
Rommel losing is not an achievement，because anyone can lose，and possibly with fewer casualties than Rommel suffered。
Remember that Rommel abandoned his entire army in North Africa and fled back to Europe。Rommel＇s reputation rests in part on a movie about him in the early 1950s starring James Mason as Rommel。
Also on the fact that his fellow Nazis executed him which causes him to be seen as less guilty of Nazism。
@@aristedecomgmailcom he did win many battles even outnumbered and with no way of supplying his troops later in africa and he had to leave the africa korps because hitler thought they should fight until death that might be another reason why rommel disliked hitler later in war and possibly being part of the plot against hitler.
@@PrvnCoke It＇s unclear whether Rommel knew in advance of a plot to overthrow Hitler。It may merely be that the plotters planned to ask Rommel to replace Hitler after Hitler was dead。
@@PrvnCoke Rommel lost battles too。He abandoned his troops in North Africa and fled in order to avoid capture himself。
Thumbs up for the wrong desert disclaimer.
I believe Napoleon said at some point he preferred generals with luck to generals with ability
I usually think that Rommel had a problem with his upper commandants because he did not feel they saw what he saw as important in the fighting and operation that were made in his lifetime. when you are a soldier in the First World War, and see that your fellow-mates and people die in battles that does not produce much results. then it is often likely that you get a certain perspective on the leaders who determine all these battles. and that you do not want it to happen to those you are leading. so it might be a reason Rommel didn't like to take orders, but was in line with those he commanded. and a reason why he got along with Hitler since he was a soldier and saw the same horrors .
This obviously does not include other things that Rommel experienced before ww1 and after. But believe the experience shaped a part of his personality.
As always, love your videos and the humor you add to them. continue the good work
@Lassi Kinnunen Italian high command was a mixed bag, some were good and some were bad, but at the time that wouldn't have been known
So Rommel was a human being some good qualities and some bad qualities. Gave the British a good kicking
A good kicking but not a knockout.
TMSD 72 and received them from the British as well.
@Western Unity awfully rude
@Western Unity so much for Western unity.
@Western Unity hahahahahhahah. The Axis powers did not get close to conquering shit. Sure Germany conquered Western Europe. It still could not invade Britain. Even if the US was still "neutral" Britain would still stand. Japan was having a hard time invading China and was still miles away from a victory before the US imposed the oil embargo. Axis influence in the Americas was damned near non existent. If the Soviet Union lost then the best Germany could hope for would be a peace agreement with Britain and the US because they hadn't a chance in hell of getting rid of either of them by force.
The biggest adjustment Rommel would have to make on the eastern front is to cooperate with parent and neighboring units.
Rommel on the eastern front would have lost along with the other generals。The Nazis in the USSR were too weak to win no matter who commanded them。Rommel lost in North Africa and abandoned his troops there。
@@aristedecomgmailcom I agree, but that wasn't my point at all.
I think if someone is consistently lucky it's clearly not luck. You could also call Napoleon lucky, but considering his predictions you can see how he wasn't gambling since he was, correctly, fairly sure things would develop in the way he expected. It's about seeing patterns. As for modern Italians' views of Rommel, from what I've seen it's two-fold, on one hand they say "he was OK but he did make a lot of mistakes and Italians don't get enough credit", and "He spoke highly of the value of Italian soldiers, and since he's a genius it's very much enough to put all myths about Italian cowardice to rest."
The Italian soldiers performed better than their entire government did. Unfortunately they were let down in terms of supplies, leadership, equipment, support and tactics. The Italian soldiers frankly were the bravest in the entire war for fighting a modern conflict without the needed factors in place by their government.
@@purplefood1 I am personally not entirely sure how to measure the Italian soldiers' performance in the war and don't have a particular opinion on the matter, I'm just conveying what I've seen as the opinion of most Italians. I'm better at analyzing peoples opinions than military facts.
When you get used to luck, its called skill (old counter-strike saying xD )
@@Altrantis You're not sure because any attempt to reach an "overall" appraisal will only end in frustration - the Italians were as good or as 'bad' as individual units. The combat effectiveness and morale fluctuated incredibly from unit to unit based on the officers in charge and other factors. That's why so many attempts to either damn the Italians or to reassess them fall flat - it must be noted that even by this time in the history of Italy many Italians did not consider it to be one totally unified, homogeneous country.
@@purplefood1 when they fought the Greeks, it was the Greeks that were under equipped... No tanks, few artillery, less ships, a few planes you couldn't even call an Air force... Yet when the war started moral was high and there was victory after victory for the Greek army
Death in the shape of a
HANDSOME ITALIAN!
"Piss in our Eyes as we charge"
You mean Frank Langella in the 1980 Dracula ?
@@paulmanson253 wat
@@therudepotatochip8633 sabaton panzer batalion reference😜😜
@@ricardolopes7696 I know that but I don't know what Paul Mason meant
The Italian Army veterans have high RESPECT for him. He restored their morale. He inspired them to fight with positive spirit.
He shared their same hardships. While their high level iltaian Army command lived a privilege lifestyle.
Interesting analysis. I'll just add this comment for what it is worth.
My father was in WWII. He enlisted in the Royal Canadian Airforce. But when he got to England was he was transferred to the RAF into Coastal Command (about 1,800 Canadian airmen were transferred; not sure exactly why). He ended up going to India and then was transferred to North Africa, probably as Montgomery's offensive started, though that is a guess on my part.
He periodically sent home pictures. One was a picture of these German tanks all nicely lined up in a fenced-in compound. There seemed to be at least two dozen of them. Aside from being in North Africa, I have no idea where they really were. But I suspect they must have been abandoned by the retreating Germans even though they all looked like they were in pretty good working order.
I suspect the Germans simply did not have the fuel to take these tanks with them. So they just had to leave them.
So I suspect the Germans and Italians were at the very end of their supply lines and when Montgomery attacked, they fairly quickly went through whatever supplies they had and were forced to retreat. So I could picture Rommel holding a very precarious line in Egypt and knowing the situation, but also being under orders not to retreat.
Thx for sharing this personal history. I like this.
Yeah, probably fuel issues. But why didnt they blow them up ? They usually did that to prevent the enemy from using captured equipment...
@@juanzulu2755
And here the Italians were sitting on Lybian oil and they didn't even know it
Great video. It’s often difficult to find Italian perspectives of the war. On my Dads side of the family he had 2 great uncles who fought. 1 of them went with the Italian expeditionary force to the eastern front and the other one fought in North Africa. My grandfather was also recruited somewhat. When ever he went fishing, they were given radios to report allied ships, and at one point they gave him a rifle with no ammo, and to stand on the piers and watch for allied ships.
Tom Brunetti a rifle with no ammo? So they expected him to hold off a ship with a bayonet?
@@nomobobby Can you even hold off a ship with a gun?
More than a few of the Italian grumbings about Rommel had similar German complaints in common. Both Rommel and the Italians are victims of Hollywood stereotyping/image making
Italian performance under Rommel was mixed but wasn't as bad as it was prior to him getting to N. Africa. Some units performed very credibly while the average was still good. Italian army's main problem in North Africa (besides proper equipment) was it's senior and middle leadership. It was also a largely light infantry force fighting a motorized one.
Rommel wasn＇t a victim of Hollywood。Hollywood built him up，with James Mason portraying Rommel。
@@aristedecomgmailcom yeah Hollywood built him up some but when I refer to him as a victim of Hollywood I'm referring to their tendency to blow up or belittle w/out actually understanding their subjects.
We usually say in Italy that Rommel had tactics but not strategy, and also that he won his battle together with our mobile forces (trento, ariete, littorio).
@ArTyOm AsCaRon - Certainly the Italian Ariete division made huge contributions to Rommel's successes.
@@shawngilliland243 You are one of the few that knows it unfortunately.
I read somewhere a statement by a German officer that they were quite confident in the abilities and reliability of some Italian units such as the Division Ariete and were glad to have them on their flank despite their poor equipment .
Y'know I wonder if the fact that Rommel fought the Italians at Caporetto had any impact on how The Italians viewed him--or, for that matter, how HE viewed the Italians.
@Marry Christmas fair enough; I just sort of thought (More of Rommel's self promotion?) He played a key role in 'The Route'.
On being asked how he had won his Blue Max by an Italian officer he explained, the officer took it in good part one soldier to another.
Various US tank troopers had Rommels portait in their tanks during the Gulf war against Irak.
Evidence
There is an officer quoted in a History Channel show. I believe it is greatest tank battles, battle of 73 easting. It's actually a wonderful series. It's on TH-cam, have a go.
@@KIM-JONG-UN-84 a quick google search could do that for you, there was even an US sniper team with the waffen ss flag in afghanistan, you can google that yourself too
This channel is one of the best! Never stop doing these videos, dude.
something rarely mentioned is that Rommel had a special radio intercept unit that had the British codes, this gave Rommel a great advantage until the unit was captured.....
@jf1325 This was an American who send the messages through the US Embassy and the Itallians had stolen the codes
they didnt have british codes the commander of unit was just too good to get picture from the radios, and he and all his men then were shot in spec ops by british.
I do not know if anyone will read this comment but I have some tales about Rommel from the prospective of the Italian common soldier. My grandfather was in Africa in a mechanized infantry unit on the front and had the chance of seeing Rommel a lot of times. He seemed to care about his soldiers, placing them considering their protection as a priority, even if obviously more so with Germans then Italians. The fact that he was on the front and not some kilometres away as the Italian commanders (maybe not the best strategy, but granted to make you look cool) awarded him a lot of praise from the common italian trooper.
After El Alamein Rommel's popularity in Italy collapsed. The Ariete sacrificed to save him from the British during Crusader, achieving the impossible by slowing down the British offensive with a few light tanks, while he didn't even try to save Italians divisions sacked by the British.
Why attempt to rescue a tinpot excuse for an army like the dagos?
Lol they stole Italian cars as well apparently. Rommel seems not to like the Italians but the Italians more or less liked him
@How bout' you chill In the video wasn't mentioned the huge loyalty the Italians felt for Rommel
@@albertoamoruso7711 The Italians fought with a lot of courage in WWII. They often had inferior equipment, and inferior leadership. Those factors can give an army a bad reputation, and the victors do get to write history. The Italian army was actually beating the UK in the early middle east theater battles.
@@willc1294 Poor racist idiot.
They thought he was great and he thought they were great...when properly led...which the German officers could and Italian officers largely couldn't. Italian WW2 experience is an excellent case study on leadership.
As always, a wonderful video!
Love the Channel!
People may be inclined to claim that a consistently lucky person must also be skilled, and this is true to an extent, but don't forget that Rommel was promoted to our attention by his successes. Selecting someone out of all the ww2 generals one might take note of inherently provides a budget for uncommon luck.
The auto generated captions on this are pure gold. Please never change them.
Rommel reminds me of a 17th-18th century cavalry commander. In some senses he would probably have excelled in that role, in other senses he might have gotten himself into some real trouble, like Gustav II Adolf at Lützen for example.
A couple of Italian militaria collectors recently published a book called "ROMMEL'S ITALIAN GENERALS IN NORTH AFRICA 1941-1943", which set out to correctly photo-ID the senior Italian officers who fought alongside the Afrika Korps.
2:12 Interestingly, according to Rommel himself, the Italian soldiers were neither cowards nor worse than the German or the British soldiers, at least it's what he claims in his memoirs. However, he criticised the Italian bureaucracy and assumes that the earlier defeats against the British were due to the fact that the Italian units lacked adequate equipment and, in special, motor vehicles and tanks. He had great respect for his Italian comrades in the frontlines, but a lot of desdain for the bureaucrats in Italy that rejected his requests of much needed equipment and supplies.
Indeed-amny Italian divisions were equipped with WWI weaponry-and the Italian Tanks were poor-British soldiers called them 'self propelled coffins".
@@genekelly8467 Exactly.
“But muh Roman Empire” Bean Head Benito
What a waste of potential for a nation, “we need Greece!” “But why?” *Gunshot* “anymore objections?”
@Johnny Vento Ok you arrogant prick let’s explore that
When did the allied expeditionary force get to Greece? After it was clear germany was coming to bail out the Italians, had Italy not wasted their fucking time there Yugoslavia (maybe) would not have been invaded and Italy wouldnt have gotten curvstomped so spectacularly for LITERALLY NOTHING
So strategic plan was NILL for Greece
@Johnny Vento “Italy was not curbstomped”
So what was Greece invading Albania? What was the complete kneecapping of the Italian invasion force? What was the whole “we surrender to Germany and only Germany” thing?
And I want to clarify something if I’m a fanboy of anyone it’s Erwin Rommel and Rommel is known for his high praise of Italian troops, I have no issue with Italian soldiers I have plenty of issue with their government and military leadership because most were atrocious, considering how Rommel curbstomped his way through Northern Africa with them, although my praise of them isn’t (just) out of Rommel fanboyism when given actual competent support they performed nothing short of amazingly, or at least the army not read up on the Air/Navy you’d have to tell me, I suppose
and no, this isn’t a comparison between Germany and Italy, it’s simply not helpful to the Mediterranean strategy as a whole, and led to the Yugoslav invasion by Germany which was not helpful to the German war effort, it was a massive pain in the ass for them
i wouldn't say that Rommel is purely lucky - it's more like some luck sprinkled into a daring personality that takes a step before the others do it.
His actions in france showed that he was able to seize even the smallest opportunity he could get.
Re-watched, great original content.
Watch this to help you get your review. TH-cam is getting to be unpleasant over the last two years.
yet some Italians may wonder: how this magnificent bastard threw the Brits off long enough for the Gazala Gallop to kick off while they were busy playing minesweeper initially to break through the minefields
appreciate your work
13:52 Like Tymothy Zahn wrote, luck is often just a combination of talent and the ability of using the chances you have to your advantage.
I would have thought that mentioning Rommels WW1 action where he won the Pour le Mérite would have been relevant.
Why does it have to have a certain amount of views to be manually reviewed?
I have no clue
Guess: youtube have limited resources, hence they will only expend man hours reviewing videos if they are popular enough.
@@lutherburgsvik6849 because google is just an indie company, start a Kickstarter for them to pay the bills
You should at one point do a video about our "beloved" austrian General Konrad von Hötzendorf from the first World War. Was that guy really a complete lunatic or are there also certain nuances to him.
He was an outstanding Napoleonic commander commanding in WWI...
I know the Great War channel don’t think too highly of him but I’m curious to hear MHV’s take.
@@ineednochannelyoutube5384 Sorry but he was dreadful, Totally underestimated his enemies, overate his own Armies capability, When planning, didn't take into account what the enemy might do, Had no concept of logistics and finally , couldn't make up his mind where to put in the main effort on a two war front thus fatally compromising both.
He was a strategic leader, his plans he drew up for the Russian campaign were used by the German generals in WW1 when they took over in the Eastern Front
I have a bersaglieri hat from the 132nd armored division which was commended by Rommel
Have an Italian WW2 helmet along with a German one.
thebes1 nice dude, any idea as to what divisions used them?
@@themandownstairs4643 No not really. My brother had bought the German one and I got the Italian one online years back. No div I.D.
thebes1 ah, the Berseglieri hats/helmets had a emblem with the division number on it, that’s how I knew mine
The 132nd armored division, better kown as "Ariete"
An interesting video about an interesting character
TH-cam, monetize this video, pls.
It is i got ads
As Italian I must say I love how Rommel left before the 2nd battle of El Alamein due to a "flue" this is such a dick move that only an Italian officer could pull it of.
I believe it was because he stayed so much around Italians that he blended in
Had the Italians waited, observed, built up their industry and modernized. Or remained Neutral, sending units like Franco did. These might have been better options than what actually happened. In terms of helping the Axis cause.
You're doing what a lot of my countrymen did (as this video says), and still do today: blaming the Fascists, especially Mussolini, for the situation. And rightfully so, since the High Command warned him we were not prepared for war. However he was convinced that after the fall of France the war would more or less end; from Mussolini, an error this big, is quite unexpected, since he understood the "rules" of the international game before and during the early phases of WW2.
Jacopo Mangini I’m not blaming Mussolini or Italian politics, it’s quite admirable what they were able to achieve while the rest of the world was under the depression. However, had Italy not attacked in Greece and Russia perhaps sent more effort to Libya, maybe they could’ve held? But that’s if the General staff was more effective, which they weren’t always.
@@painfan476 I don't know, Libya was a huge mess from a supply point of view. Putting more eggs in that basket could easily have done worse. But in general, Italy, both militarily and economically, had such issues that the only, more probable, good way to survive unharmed the WW2 time period was to not join the war in the first place.
Jacopo Mangini Indeed, having a supportive buffer state in both Italy and Spain could’ve proven useful to Germany.
@@jacopomangini3036 Mussolini was very unpopular come 1940 and as I understand it quite a few historians contend that had Mussolini not went to war in 1940 he would have been replaced anyway or his regime would have fallen
Keep this views up you are doing it great! :)
thought provoking dude, many thanks!
Peruvian desert? We Chileans will take it aswell. Our divine right and so forth.
really you are going to give the americans an excuse to mess up both countries?
why not try to get along with each other and fight the common enemy, los gringos
Fighting over a desert? Are you gonna ask a foreign power for help to? Don't move to much or you might sink your country into the pacific
@@Heidenspross Give us your hot chicks and we'll leave you alone....
@@Heidenspross Haven't the Americans fucked up South America enough already?
@@Heidenspross Spoken for? By Univision? As for our women (Greeks/Italians/Armenians) all they need is a good supply of depilatories to keep them looking good...and keep 'em away from the sweets ;-)
General Wavell had said that the British could not count on the lopsided victories they had won against the Italians (such as Operation Compass where 36000 British bagged 150,000 Italians with all their artillery) once the Afrika Corps arrived. Still, Rommel's strategy after the defeat at 2nd el Alamein seemed to be based on throwing the logistical nightmare of tens of thousands of thirsty Italians onto British rations. In the British documentary "The World at War" the writers state that the Italians were abandoned after the Germans "pinched their transport." In short, grand theft auto where German troops drove off in hijacked Italian trucks leaving the Italians to their fate. However, unlike the Russian front, the fate of the typical Italian prisoner in North Africa was a trip to the American Southwest where they could live in relative comfort until the end of the war, and sometimes long after.
Somtimes a bold action doesn't succeed because of luck but because the enemy is simply overwhelmed.
That effect can be calculated and thus taken into consideration.
Sure, what he did is still risky but what type of military action isn't?
One of the mottos of fascism philosophy (yes, the italian fascist manifesto was written by a philosofer) was "memento audere semper", that means "allways remember to dare"
I believe the SAS have a line about this; “Who dares wins”
Side note: what beard product do you use?
"Peruvian desert" ? Is this a reference to the Ecuadorian-Peruvian War of 1941 ?
Looks like someone knows of that conflict too, nice
...WHICH war? WWI or WWII?
You mentioned something to the effect of saying that Rommel miss used or did not take advantages of the strengths of the Italian infantry. Could you elaborate or possibly do a video on the Italian infantry in North Africa and how they should have been utilized?
In case you are not already familiar with it, I strongly suggest that you watch TIK's YT amalgamated series on Operation Crusader th-cam.com/video/Ji7MZYB4dho/w-d-xo.html
I wonder what those strengths might be?
They were uniformly EXCELLENT at running awway from Australians.
@@sugarnads ApparT from Austalians beeing sallied themselves by crimes of war ,shooting italians prisoners in Derna , In Alamein Pavia - Trento and Folgore put up a strenoius fight as well as Giovani Fascisti in Bir el Gubi and the Savona divisions in Halfaya pass ; Also the whole 8th army was stopped cold at Mareth line by 5 italian division and only could take the position after flanking it but by the time Messe army was regrouped in Wadi Akkarit. Also italian infantry stoped all australians attempt to break through in Tobruk in 1941. Finally to put the other way round if 2 PANZER DIVION AND ONE INFANTRY GERMAN DIVISON WERE ABLE ALONE TO STAND THE WHOLE BRITISH EMPIRE IN NORTH AFRICA FOR 3 YEAR IS EVIDENT THe EMPIRE WAS A JOKE.
On the topic of luck, here is a quote from Hector berlioz about meyerbeer: he had the luck to be talented, and the talent to be lucky. The two go hand in hand
Kinda reminds me of American-Australian coordination in the Pacific.
Oversexed, overpaid and over here
@@andresmartinezramos7513
As a U.S.MARINE and the son of WWII 1st Marine Division MARINE. I have to agree....
@@knutdergroe9757 hahahaha it was a wartime slogan back then
How so?
@@deriznohappehquite American General McArthur, who I believe was Supreme Allied Commander in the East, viewed Australian Troops as second rate compared to American soldiers and thus didn't give them much credit. Similar to Rommel and the Italians.
I read Colonel Von Lucks book Panzer Commander. Von Luck fought in conquering Europe then to the Eastern Front then Africa then the Western Front and finally back to the eastern front where he was captured. He worked directly with Rommel a few times and in his book they way he describes it they were what you could call friends. In his book he spoke higher about Rommel then any other General and almost to the point of him almost Idolizing Rommel. It's one mans perspective but he no question held him in the highest regard.
Rommel was in a tough place and he proved on the Tactical level to be quite adept, that said if he would have failed in his endeavors nobody would know about him because he would have been court marshaled. Rommel is therefore a good study in what not to do as much as he is a study of how to execute mobile warfare on a theater scale. As far as his "poor grasp of logistics" goes he had little control over his supply and could only control the end use which he would run in n the red if he thought there was more to gain from that risk then lose.
Love your well researched and thoughtful videos. Just a comment re: Italian point of view of Rommel. He regularly beat them like a drum in WWI. Perhaps influenced their thoughts.
Rommel held-off the bulk of the British/Commonwealth forces for 2 years. Think about what else could have been done by those forces if Rommel had not put up such a good fight. And with only a handful of German divisions to stiffen the Italians. Pretty impressive!
Clearly Churchill was frustrated, but he had other ideas to pursue if he could just free his forces that Rommel had tied-down. How would the war have gone if the Brits could have cleared Libya and Tunisia early? Interesting to consider.
Clearly, Rommel was thinking strategically (oil to the East, threaten the USSR), and was willing to take risks. He was not perfect, but he was impressive, and he learned from his experiences. Think about the importance of air power at El Alamein, and how he realized that would cripple the German response to D-Day. He was right about that, the panzers could not hit the beachhead with impunity.
It was also hard for Churchill to justify the sacrifice of troops in North Africa, when they were really there purely for colonial corporate interests. Of course history repeats itself with the US in the 2000's.
Excellent!
Putting Rommel, who'd smashed the Italians at Caporetto in 1917, in command of the Afrika Korps wasn't the most tactful choice on Germany's part.
Luck in a tactical sense can only happen to those who made room for it to happen. So one could say he was lucky because he worked for it.
Very molto interessante. Danke schön!
Please read “The Trail of the Fox” by David Irving. Uses mostly primary documents. An older book and Very Fair!
"A good commander is Lucky. A Great commander makes his own luck."
And his adversaries in the desert? who was the best?
Wavell, Auchinleck or Monty?
Auchinleck. The army that Monty inherited was all due to Auchinleck. He just was the guy in charge when the time was right to attack.
Growing up, one of my best friends in high school, Franco's father, was a Lieutenant in the Italian Army in North Africa in WWII. He was rather favorable about Rummel for two things. One, Rummel, unlike their previous leaders actually provided them adequately with ammunition and other supplies, when available. Two, Rummel had a low opinion of the Italian troops under his command and rarely put them in very critical and therefore hazardous situations. As for his own thoughts on those matters he was fond of stating that Mussolini used to brag about the one million bayonets in his army, but failed to mention they did not have the rifles or ammunition to go with them. He had a huge folio containing surrender flags embroidered by family members and given to his men by their families before they left Italy. They contained White flags with "I Surrender," embroidered in large red letters in English, French and even Russian. Evidently the home front did not fully support the war. His unit was captured en mass and sent to the US in 1942. He spent the remainder of the war in a POW camp just outside of New Orleans working as a farm hand with his men. After the war he went back to Italy, collected his wife, brother and son and immediately came back to New Orleans, where he started a successful business and had 2 more sons.
Great video & topic.
His career is complex.
Luck as a trend is something that gamblers can debate & argue.
Historically Rommel was sent to the sandbox to play. He had a lot of fun for awhile !
There's a saying that you hear in the military sometimes that I think applies here - "Promoted to his own level of incompetence". I'm definitely NOT saying Rommel was incompetent. What I am saying (and what the saying I quoted means) is it seems that at lower levels of command Rommel was a good leader but when promoted to higher levels of leadership his ability to handle more responsibility wasn't as good as it needed to be.
It's not unique to Rommel, it happens to all kinds of people in all kinds of careers (military and non-military) - people are able to deal with a certain level of responsibility but at higher levels it becomes too much for some of them to effectively manage.
It seems this might have been the case with Rommel.
@ReHerakhte - You make a good point; the situation with Rommel may be similar to that of the French general (later Field Marshal) Michel Ney - excellent commander of a division, but as a corps commander, he did not manage his duties as effectively.
@@shawngilliland243 I think the idea really stuck in my head when I heard the comment that in France, Rommel lead his Division like he was leading a Company - at the 12:30 mark. It's almost like he reverted back to a leadership routine that he was more comfortable with i.e. Company Commander, rather than face all the management tasks of a Division Commander. I'm making an assumption for sure, but it seems to fit what information we do have about him.
Exactly my thought, being consistently lucky usually means you're doing something right haha :) I really appreciate all of your videos on Rommel. They have really given me perspective on a person that i though was perfect. I truly believed the German post war agenda, without even considering making a critical thought.
Valentin Pedersen or your enemy is doing things wrong. Taken Op Crusader when Rommel dashed to the wire and back again wasting what little fuel he had for little result. If the British been more competent Rommel wouldn't have got away with it.
@@neildahlgaard-sigsworth3819 Ehm no. He was quite successful in the first world war as well, and pushed through the Maginot. Was it lucky? Defiantly. But it all so shows that this wasn't purely down to the incompetence of the british army, like you're suggesting. The guy had some sort of a tactical talent without a doubt.
Valentin Pedersen yes he was talented to a degree, but he was also recklessly stupid. During the Fall of France he got away with risky gambles mainly because the British and French were using out dated tactics and suffered from poor command and control; the only radio Gamelan had in his headquarters could only receive public radio broadcast services, he had to use telephones to talk to his subordinates.
During Op Crusader he was out of contact with his subordinate commanders, meaning he had no control over the German forces under his command and no way of co-ordinating with the Italian Army and therefore no way of controlling the battle. If the British had been better organised and lead then a more favourable outcome for the British might have been achieved earlier (both strategic and tactical victories rather than just a tactical one).
Rommel had little fuel in north Africa a good portion of it he wasted racing to the Egyptian border (the Wire) and back again. This dash to the wire had little effect other than to wear out his men and their vehicles as the British didn't respond in the way he had expected.
@@neildahlgaard-sigsworth3819 But that's my point, they weren't and being able to exploit that by assessing your enemies competence level is a also a skill.
Valentin Pedersen that skill not luck. There is no such thing as a lucky person.
The Italians seem to have a very accurate view of Rommel than the rest of the powers. He was undoubtedly a outstanding soldier but a awful politician which a high ranking officer needs to be to some extent
Do more on Italy in ww2 like the flogre or the decima x mas division
I think a fair comparison might be Rommel compared with Gen Robert E. Lee. Both had to deal with; understrength, under supplied, lack of air power VS a seemingly endless supply of men and material coming to play with the Allies as well as a continuing growth of Allied air power. Rommel also had to deal with a German High Command that was afraid to say "NO" to Hitler.
No one is perfect. Even Manstein had faults. It's how you react to changing conditions in a battle, good and bad that makes a difference.
That's why Ger,man generals managed to keep a losing war going for another 2 years.
I caught part of a British made? WW2 satire set in N Africa years ago. The plot was about a group of Italians captured by the Brits. In the seesaw of battle they encounter a Africa Korp kampfgruppe. The Brits not wanting to become prisoners, and the Italians not wanting to be rescued swap roles. The Italians now holding the Brits as prisoners. They swap roles several times in their trek back to British lines. It was a hoot. Anyone know what the title to this movie was?
Shame YT demonitize this video.
Rommel was in a way the embodiment of Teutonic arrogance as the popular Italian opinion puts it. His history of insubordination and doing his own thing regardless of standing orders speaks to personal arrogance and belief that he knew best always. However he in some ways embodied the ideal of the german officer, free wheeling based on the situation and devising his own plans to accomplish the mission, thinking on one’s feet and initiative taken the distance. Overall an interesting and as you put it quite accurately complicated character. He was who we think he was and at the same time he wasn’t at all.
Now I want to know why the Italians hated Kesselring and Montgomery
I think the reason was that Kesselring was the field marshal that was in charge during the italian occupation from 1943 onwards ( hence partly responsible for the atrocities during the occupation); and Monty was the winner of El Alamein, so it's kinda obvious why.
Messi was a good commander. Skill level 4 & Panzer Leader. :p
Clarkson and May would probably argue about, leaving Hammond bored behind XD.
Perkelenaattori
*messe not messi, he’s the Italian Rommel not the italian exodite football player
@@marcoconsorti2663 Aah yes my mistake. And Messi is more of a trickster and not panzer leader anyway.
4?? Boy I hope he gets some experience soon or he's in for a world of hurt when all the 9's from the USA get there.
Think Messe was a competent General doing well in Russia as well as Africa. He is what you would call a safe pair of hands.
Excellent perspective. I believe you are correct that people have a tendency to want history to be simple, where in reality it is very complicated, especially when national propaganda wrote the original text books. It is hard when someone comes along with facts that expose your misconceptions. We need to be willing to say, for example, a particular event was very important to my nation, but in the great scheme of the the war, it was really just a minor footnote. Similarly, all great national heroes are flawed. If you want to take a psychological approach, pretty much all great war leaders are sociopathic egomaniacs, but at that time and place, they were the right sociopathic egomaniac for the job.
Rommel was a lucky gambler at war. Napoleon said his favored trait in all of his Marshalls was luck. IIRC Rommel’s take on the Italian army was this; Good soldiers, bad officers.
Very insightful video. Something you reminded me about. At the US Army Command and General Staff College, they teach us about the three levels of warfare: Tactical, which is Division and below. Operational, which is Corps/Army level. And Strategic, which is above Field Army, that is, Theater and National level. Perhaps Rommel was a tactical genius, however, when he got promoted too fast, and did not have General Staff training (or understanding), he was out of his element at the Operational and Strategic levels. Food for thought.
Rommel what ever you say was a good general . That is what my father said . He was at El Alamein and tilbrook and other places in the western desert .
many Italians worshiped Rommel, my grandpa said always: sadly that Italy didn't had such great commander
Thank you.
¡Vamos Perú! Great video
If I remember well biographe book on Rommel , he was in bas terme with some italien maréchal from High Commande bases in Libya . Maréchal's name was ou rhymed with "Bombastiko"
General Bastico, the worst military leader of history.
When someone keeps kicking your army all over the place, it helps morale to turn him into some evil genius. Rommel was talented, indeed, but he was no Gudarien.
I've been in situations where I made mistakes and was criticized for those mistakes. Then I learned from those mistakes and improved my performance, but my critics did not update their assessment of me, in their eyes i became the person who always makes those particular mistakes. I believe this is the case with Rommel. Many of the criticisms of him were probably correct at a point in time, but I suspect he was aware of his shortcomings and took steps to correct them, which is inconvenient to those who wish to scapegoat.
Subtitles at the beginning: “So what did the Italians think about ramen?”
Sometimes you have to "agree to disagree"
I've read somewhere (Apologies for failing to remember where) that Rommel was a much better Battalion Commander rather than a General. I can somewhat agree with that assessment when we look at his "up in the front" command style. Perhaps he could've been seen as over promoted in regards for a Peace time Army but war often demands a different Command Officer than in Peace. This was clearly shown by the well publicized "Soviet Officer Purges" & the much lesser publicized actions by the US Navy to replacing peace time submarine Commanders with younger, more aggressive Commanders. I would say (Personal Opinion Only) that the British & Commonwealth Armed Forces perhaps didn't purge (Or only minor changes) of Peace time officers & this may be why there were opinions of poor leadership early in the conflict.
How the fight against Rommel escalated: th-cam.com/video/GvBrU1Cofms/w-d-xo.html