Salonen Announces Departure from Francisco--Panic Ensues (Yawn!)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 มี.ค. 2024
- There's nothing the classical music world enjoys more than a crisis, whether real or manufactured. Conductor Esa-Pekka Salonen's announced departure as Music Director of the San Francisco Symphony is surely the latter.
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Just saw the Detroit Symphony last night in Detroit with its' relatively new 'lesser-known name' music director Jader Bignamini, and Yuja Wang playing Beethoven 4th. (Dukas and Saint-Saens also 'starred') I thought the concert was glorious, but also happy to see so many younger people mixing with us old, and a lot of our burgeoning Asian community drawn by Yuja and the music selling the hall out. That should be the goal of our local band, to bring such local community together. They financially and sensibly just completed a mini tour of only Florida cities for one week that I think was easier on the pocketbook and long on national exposure for possible future fundraising and positive reputation. What a delight we still have this wonderful orchestra, even in our post-Slatkin era...
In Los Angeles, too, we get a pleasantly surprising number of younger people at the concerts. You and Dave make a good point - an orchestra should serve its local community first and foremost, or else that community will not support it. And then the money worries get even worse.
The Detroit Symphony has a robust video streaming program. I watch them regularly and have made contributions to their fund drives even though I'm thousands of miles away.
@@Emrla1 We Detroiter's thank you! I hope you will enjoy this latest concert with Yuja Wang playing Beethoven's 4th, The Sorcerer's Apprentice, and Saint-Saens Organ Symphony. Their film music concert the week before was also terrific.
@@bloodgrss: What an enjoyable program! 😎🎹
I was there too! Great concert. Orchestral hall is a beautiful building and the DSO sounds great in there
I was surprised when EPS became the Music Director at SFS. I’m a HUGE Salonen fan but the celebrity of MTT’s era in San Francisco… well you nailed it.
A few of the Salonen/SFS concerts I’ve attended were absolutely outstanding (Adams, Debussy, Nielsen, Sibelius). I've also been lucky to see Salonen conduct in Los Angeles and it was equally great. I wonder where he will land being in such demand.
I would be interested in a video or a series about the best and the worst music director transitions.
It is not just the SF Symphony which seems to be cutting back expenditures. The SF Opera, the second largest Opera Company in terms of budget and reputation in the USA, with the largest and one of the most gorgeous venues (the War Memorial Opera House) has cut its schedule of productions back to 6 in 2024/25 (each of the Operas is played several times) -- from an average of 10 productions. The financial manager said the company’s expenses have been escalating by roughly 2% to 3% a year, while its revenue rises by only 1%. The Metropolitan Opera seems to be having a similar cutback, the 2024/25 season announcement calls for 12 productions, a very low number. In addtion, there are no Wagner Operas scheduled in New York for the first time I can remember. .
The SF Opera advertised for the position of third chair string bass for a 24 week season at over $100k plus medical, generous pension contribution, and vacation (within 24 weeks!).
@@mikesmovingimagesWow! That’s nuts.
Yes, this is tragic and, as far as I'm concerned, more distressing than Salonen leaving. I agree with Dave that the SF Symphony should find a good, ambitious young American conductor, but there's no excuse for the Opera cutting what was always a too-restricted season anyway. I would think they could save money, if necessary, by avoiding the cost of new productions. Most of the potential audience won't have seen the old ones and I, for one, don't care how old the scenery is if the voices are great.
I live in SF and have been going to the SFS for many years. In talking with one or two members of the orchestra and seeing their reactions over the uproar over Salonen leaving, that they view the Salonen as making this hubbub in part for them, and to lobby for better pay for the musicians, who have been battling with orchestra management because of underpay for years. There are many major posts in the orchestra that have remained empty ever since MTT left, because the pay is not enough to attract good talent. And Salonen has clearly struggled to get these chairs filled and has been stifled by the board. I’m under no illusion that Salonen is doing this just for the good of the orchestra, and that his pocketbook has no part in his decision making. But on the other hand, the musicians themselves seem to really respect him and believe is he’s working for their best interests. And that the tour thing is stupid, but it seems to me that it was just the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Sorry, but that's an excuse. There are TONS of qualified musicians who would gladly play and work hard in S.F. at the existing pay rate. Don't buy into that nonsense. It has nothing to do with Salonen's leaving. Every year the conservatories turn out a whole new crop of ready to plug in musicians who can gladly do the job, and do it well.
Find it hard to believe they have a difficult time filling positions when their pay rate is among the most generous in the US. The city is in free-fall and the last thing we need is for the Arts to start tumbling. If Salonen truly cared about the orchestra and great music he would've stayed to weather the storm and not expect prima donna treatment at a time when crime is out of control and businesses are shuttering.
@@PG-zt9nw Except things are not that bleak except on the pages of conservative media. The SF Symphony has both a large endowment and plenty of wealthy donors, a crop of new politicians with a moderate tilt in the city are making headway against crime (which, though property, not violent, crime seems shockingly bad to SF citizens, was never that bad compared to cities like New Orleans, Oakland, Detroit, Baltimore, even Wasington DC) and there’s also good news regarding drugs, mental illness and the homeless: In April the Supreme Court will hear an appeal in a case that currently makes cleaning up the sidewalk campers (who are not so much an issue in the performing arts center anyway) difficult and the passage of Proposition 1 will permit more compulsory hospitalization and treatment. I think San Francisco is on the upswing in the latest of its many historical ups and downs. That will disappoint those who hate its left of center politics, but I think it’s true. Too bad Salonen won’t be part of the renaissance.
My SFS attendance has decreased dramatically due to the crime around Davies, B.A.R.T. but maybe those conditions are not a factor for many. For example, I noticed the 23 March concert (Carmina Burana) is close to sold out with Second Tier seats selling for $250 (dynamic pricing of course).
@@sjc1204 Sorry but what crime around Davies are you talking about? Do you mean you can't leave your backpack in your back seat without being broken in to? That's been the case for a decade plus.
Everybody should have carte-blanche to tour Japan, if the Japanese are willing to pay for it. They have great concert halls with excellent acoustics, and an enthusiastic, knowledgeable public who will buy the resulting physical media and keep them in print until the end of time. After all, it's cheaper to bring the orchestra to Japan than to send the audience to wherever.
I completely agree with you about orchestra touring. The one big exception is regional orchestras visiting cities and towns within their area. E.g. Kansas City Phil touring or doing run outs within MO.
Exactly.
I live in a fairly wealthy area (I am not) -- in Palm Beach County, Florida. I like touring orchestras. They apparantly can raise enough money from the local donors here to play in "season" from November - March. The 2024/5 schedule came out today, we get the Concertgebouw (with Klaus Makela of course), Chicago, Cleveland, The London Symphony, and the Israel Philharmonic next season. We have a nice, modern venue at Kravis Center which also can support our local Opera Company. I just heard Vienna and Most do Bruckner 9 -- after they performed the same at Carnegie Hall. If it were not for touring, and the local base which can afford to subsidize it in Palm Beach, I would never get to hear these ensembles locally.
@@DavesClassicalGuide My first ever professional orchestra concert was hearing the old Kansas City Philharmonic and pianist Malcolm Frager perform a concert in the wonderful old Swedish town of Lindsborg, Kansas. Great stuff for a small town kid who has now heard and performed many concerts over the years.
I was at the performance in SF the day after the news broke. I hadn't even heard until I got there. Wasn't sure if he was going to be applauded or booed. He got at least 5 standing ovation. Its going to suck to see him go...but thats the biz.
How were his concerts? He doesn't release albums regularly so it's hard to know the quality of his music making.
As a former Californian, subscriber, and long-time SF Symphony Chorus singer, I found that the drive into the Civic Center area was increasingly nightmarish, with one-way streets, Van Ness Ave construction, and no allowance for concert traffic.
One time I was parked on the top level of the Performing Arts Garage as the Symphony and Opera were both letting out. By my watch, it took 45 minutes just to get out of the garage!
Dear Dave, you have such a knack for finding the right words for a given situation. Thank you for saying that an orchestra's purpose (or other cultural/entertainment venues) is to serve the people of its surrounding area. That's where the money and the effort should be put.
Except that they're also cutting back on local educational initiatives and intimate/alternative "SoundBox" concerts. The restriction on musician pay (as far as I know the only major American orchestra that has NOT restored pay to pre-pandemic levels) is also causing problems recruiting the best musicians to play there and leaving many positions vacant, to be filled by substitutes. What they're doing more of is movie soundtrack nights.
Saw them on tour in Orange County. Fabulous all Sibelius program. The regional tours seem a good intermediate between never leaving town and embarking on prohibitively expensive world tours.
I agree your perspective on orchestral touring. Regional tours in the US by US orchestras are far more relevant than tours to Europe or Asia. Those international tours should only happen -- as per Dave's thoughts -- as the culmination of a music director's tenure with an orchestra, or perhaps half-way through the tenure of a new music director, if the orchestra's sound or responsiveness in performance have been transformed in a significant fashion.
For example, with my local orchestra, the Utah Symphony, which is one of only 16 or so full-time orchestras in the US (but not close to being in the top-ten in terms of budget), the last European tour was in 2005, the last tour to Carnegie Hall was in April 2016 (the mid-way point of then music director Thierry Fischer's transformative 14-year tenure from 2009-2023), and the last tour out of state in the US was in early 2020 (Palm Desert, California), just before COVID.
The Utah Symphony's budget cannot support any sort of European tour except perhaps once in 15-20 years. And that sort of tour should be very low on the priority list -- good old fashioned audio recordings released on commercial (they are really just boutique) record labels are far more useful for the performance level of the musicians than tours in my limited experience.
Maybe the elephant in the room is the fact that downtown S.F. appears to be dying on its feet? Would residents be interested in going to a concert there? Would be interested to get a perspective on this from a local.
As a lifelong resident of San Francisco and a regular at the SFS, this “elephant” has no impact on the musical life. Yes, SF has problems with homelessness and such, but as do must cities. It seems that SF is often used as a scapegoat by politicians and media cronies who take pictures of the Tenderloin and pretend that the whole city is that way. The symphony still has high attendance and one of the largest endowments available to a major American orchestra. Remember that the Bay Area is home to many of the largest tech corporations on the planet, and a chunk of that money flows to the symphony. The area around the symphony hall is full of she-she boutiques and expensive restaurants and is a very popular neighborhood for Yuppie types. So no, the problem is not the lack of interest from the public because of the “dying downtown,” whatever that means. And it seems that the issues are more with the internal politicking of the orchestra than with the broader community.
I don't really consider the concert hall location to be "downtown S.F". The concert hall is near Hayes Valley/civic center. True downtown (Market between 1st and civic center) is not doing well, true, but everywhere else in the city is actually thriving.
@@joeshmoe9272 Another joeshmoe!
@@twogluon Exactly. Just adjacent to Davies Hall is the Hayes Valley neighborhood which is hipster heaven and thriving including great places to dine before a performance.
You seem to read the Wall Street Journal too much and believe its politically-based propaganda. But lately you should have read their articles about things turning around--entrepreneurs returning from Texas because the Bay Area is still where the venture capital lives. Now their red/blue bad boy city is Austin (does Austin have a symphony?).
As it happens, I live just a few blocks from the symphony hall and I've never heard of any crime in its immediate vicinity that posed a danger to concert goers. Violent crime in SF has always been low--the post-covid problem has been property crime like shoplifting and car break-ins that don't affect arts patrons unless they park on the street (there are a number of nearby parking garages). I do recall a report a few years ago of one couple being mugged walking from the Civic Center subway station to the opera or symphony--about a 4 block walk. That station, at UN Plaza which is a drug bazaar, is one of the sketchiest in the city but even so--one case in years.
As for downtown SF, besides bad publicity, it's the victim principally of the work-from-home phenomenon which has affected the tech industry more than any other. With 25% or more of the office workers gone, foot traffic was so decreased that many businesses catering to office workers shut down. In addition, nobody needs to go downtown to shop anymore. The internet-based delivery services were born in SF and even Walmart has its online division HQ in the Bay Area. I simply can't recall the last time I went into a department store. But in spite of all this, word is that AI is beginning to revive things. Many of the new AI companies are coming out of the primordial sea of San Francisco coffee shops and start-up spaces. It's a city that has had so many deaths and rebirths its symbol is the phoenix (the bird, not that other insufferably hot city).
I read that one of Salonen's pet projects was a permanent summer home for the Symphony on Treasure Island -- the island in the middle of the San Francisco Bay where the Bay Bridge splits in half -- turns into a tunnel -- and continues onto Oakland. Treasure Island, the site of a Worlds Fair in 1939, and used as a Navy Base is now being redevelopped and would make a wonderful Summer Home for the Symphony (Salonenen also wanted a new indoor space) if it were not for tsome problems -- 1. It no longer has light rail lines going accross it from San Francisco and Oakland 2. It is cold as heck in the Summer when the famous fog rolls in. 3. It would take a half billion or so to redevelop,. I can just see Salonene, who is a bit of a Prima Donna, adding this to his list of grievances.
And it's where the Mythbusters made many of their most memorable episodes.
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade was also filmed there. @@DavesClassicalGuide
The problem is not so much just the announced departure of the music director (though the musicians seem to LOVE him), the problem is the REASON he is leaving: the board have cancelled all future touring plans from 2025 on, they have been cancelling educational initiatives (aren't orchestras supposed to be chartered as "educational" non-profits?), and the board have been cancelling the SoundBox intimate alternative concerts, not to mention that player pay is still being kept lower than it was before covid DESPITE the $325 million endowment (apparently SFS is the only major peer orchestra where this is the case).
In other words, it's the BOARD that is stopping the orchestra from doing even the things that they were doing before Salonen arrived, and including things that serve the people of SF, particularly younger audiences and non-traditional audiences.
As someone else pointed out, his resignation is just him standing up for the musicians, who are also not happy with what the board has been doing.
Like I said--now everyone will crap on the board. They are trying to balance the budget. Shame on them. Grow up, please. The best "educational initiative" an orchestra can have is simply to play concerts within its community.
@@DavesClassicalGuideI respectfully think that the best educational initiatives of an orchestra involve teaching members of the community - most often children.
During Covid the SFO players, who were about to start contract negotiations, accepted a $300 per week pay cut because there was no revenue coming from concerts. After Covid the board refused to negotiate the new contract based on the old one and insisted on negotiating based on the reduced pay. That says it all, IMHO.
Two years and counting with no music director in Seattle after Dausgaard’s even more abrupt departure in January 2022. Interestingly, no one seems to care.
I used to live in Seattle and quite a few people I know there are not at all happy with SSO's President and CEO.
@@bbailey7818 This is entirely correct. Moreover, SSO keeps bringing back Morlot who never quite had the career he expected after he left Seattle. Not that this is a bad thing, he is talented, but the SSO seems rudderless.
This is off topic but I was shocked and "depressed" (sort of) when the BSO announced that Andris Nelsons had been moved to a rolling contract a few months ago. He keeps introducing Russian music to the orchestra when it's so good at French music. And most importantly, he is not particularly interesting. I really wish someone else could take his job and bring some freshness and youthfulness to the ensemble.
Absolutely agree it's not a disaster if Salonen leaves. As great a conductor as he is, no one person should be seen as indespensible. It's an opportunity, perhaps to nuture some new talent with something to say (a young Leonard Bernstein made his debut, covering an indisposed Bruno Walter and the rest, as they say, is history).
I viewed the pick of Salonen to be something of a 'retread' to begin with. I think many in Nor Cal were already familiar with the fine work he did in L.A. However, in many respects, MTT's and Salonen's repertoire overlap more than just a bit. Of course, Salonen brings a Finnish and Scandinavian element which MTT rarely if ever touched. I think they're better off starting their search for someone new at this point, rather than putting it off for another five or ten years. There are plenty of good people out there. The notion that the S.F. Symphony is going to have a complete meltdown is utter nonsense.
I live in the Bay Area and used to attend SF Symphony concerts quite frequently, until I have 2 kids and have no time now. I spent most of my life in the Bay Area after immigrating here from Hong Kong. SF Symphony has been blessed with Blomstedt and MTT. What I have noticed is Salonen seems to lack the local community connections Blomstedt and MTT had. That may be important when raising local support (and money). I still remembered when I was at college in UC Berkeley, took a music class, and saw MTT sitting at the back of the classroom. I have a friend who is a Seventh Day Adventist and talked about worshipping with Blomstedt in her local church. I am not sure Salonen has done much for the San Francisco local communities, and he is still seen as an outsiders from many local people
I'm a subscriber who just signed on to the 24-25 season. When will his tenure end? The orchestra has a different sound than MTT. I like it. Wonder who will succeed him?
2024/25 is his last year as Music Director. I do not think he will stay around next year except for some guest conductor concerts -- and perhaps already agreed upon recordings. MTT and Blomstedt, the conducting laureates cannot step in at this point to replace him for a year or two.
Salonen is superb but the SFS video channel could be developed by orders of magnitude.
In the old days when records were or absent or of abysmal quality there might have been a good reason for orchestras to tour. So people could experience different interpretations and sounds of other orchestras. Nowadays there are so many recordings of so many orchestras and they have started to sound all the same because the conductors fly and train all orchestras, I don't see a reason for wasting so much money and creating so much pollution by touring the globe with 150 people.
I agreed with this position a long time ago, now however, it is clear that if technological advancement was enough to reduce the degree and importance of a concert or any other kind of interaction (a board meeting, a family gathering), first of all the airlines would be out of business. It is part of the human condition.
Dave, I think your take is a bit too cynical. I attended SFS's performance in LA last Friday night and it was one of the greatest concerts I've ever heard in Disney Hall (out of 9 years of very frequent attendance, at least twice per month, mostly LA Phil of course since Disney does not invite many guest orchestras). The counterpoint to your argument that orchestras should primarily serve their local communities is that the so-called Big Five of NY Boston Philly Chicago and Cleveland have aspired to international greatness for decades (in some cases for a century plus) and there isn't really any good reason to constrain SF and LA to California (particularly considering the nearly limitless wealth of both metropolitan areas). That said, SF should tour California more (this was their first California tour in quite a while, I think). It sounds like you agree that touring the state or local area is a good use of resources but oppose frequent international tours.
SF and LA are a valuable counterweight to the East Coast-centric US classical music culture. And the East Coast wants what we have too, both in administration (Borda from LA to NY, Smith from LA to Boston) and conductors (Dudamel from LA to NY). The 2024-25 Carnegie season is opening with LA Phil. I do hope that the approaching major vacancies in our state (LA Phil, LA Opera, and SFS all open at the same time) are filled by interesting conductors, preferably young, maybe even finally some women? One can dream.
Local touring isn't "touring." It's called "doing your job properly." And I have no problem with international touring once a decade or so, but it should be earned. It's not an entitlement or a necessity, especially if the music directors are hopping all over the place anyway.
Would you say the Sony Salonen box is ripe for reissue?
Were the cats expressing their opinion of EPS and the situation, also?
Probably.
It is unfortunate Salonen and SF could not come to an amicable compromise, but I respect the artistic integrity Salonen showed in quitting if the Board would not allow him to put on a product he believes worthy of the audience. Hopefully San Francisco’s next hire will be equally accomplished. As for international orchestral tours, that may simply be a cultural activity whose time has passed. In the streaming and video era, there are worse things to mourn than that particular loss.
This is somewhat similar to the situation in New York, which absolutely seemed to be down from its lofty perch for quite a stretch after Bernstein died, did alright for itself under Masur, started to slip a bit under Gilbert (not entirely his fault), managed to kinda alienate van Zweden, and somehow come out of it with a gleaming new hall and are the most famous conductor out there, whatever one thinks of his quality. Fortune sure is fickle, but on a long enough timeline she comes back around.
Also, I would be delighted beyond measure if they hired a young American conductor. Karina Canellakis is one of the only plausible names that leaps to mind, but are there others? I confess, curmudgeonly as it sounds, that I would be more delighted if it went to one of the many terrific older American conductors (Falletta, Stern, God forbid Litton), but hey.
Man Mehta really doesn't get a lot of love. Masur is a generally dull conductor, no? van Zweden came and went without a trace unfortunately. One or two albums aside. Dudamel... Curious to see what he does with the orchestra.
@@kanishknishar My bad for not mentioning him by name. He was their principal through the 80s, which was their previous heyday. I also omitted Maazel, and that feels completely appropriate LOL!
@@Klafknet Ouch. That's harsh. I've recently been listening to a lot of Maazel and he has been terrific. Depends on what you're listening to I suppose.
@@kanishknishar Oh, I think Maazel has plenty of great recordings, but his New York tenure seems entirely erased from my memory.
Sadly, I think, for mostly inexplicable reasons, JoAnn Falletta long ago was relegated to conducting US or North American orchestras outside of those with the biggest budgets (top ten let us say). But that has benefitted the Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra greatly in artistic terms, especially with all of the commercial releases that have come out of the pipeline with Naxos Classics. Her dedication to the Buffalo Philharmonic (she has been music director since 1999), and apparent continued rapport with its musicians, are two of the most unheralded stories in all of classical music. She is a far more consistently excellent conductor than Marin Alsop, who gets the credit for being the first woman music director of a "major" American orchestra.
It is good to see a more extensive article on JoAnn Falletta and the Buffalo Philharmonic in one of the issues of Gramophone Magazine from early 2024.
An American conductor in an American orchestra. Wonderful idea.
Orchestras should basically be on permanent tours in the suburbs around major metropolitan areas.
Great idea and such insight. You should go into arts administration 🙄
@@abegumroyan I am :)
@@abegumroyan Busted...
@@tortuedelanuit2299 if you had any idea of what you were talking about you would know an orchestra of this caliber already does a multitude of run outs in their respective area as well as throughout the US many times throughout their season. But now this board has chosen to gut this organization from the inside out when there is more than enough funding from the endowment and incoming revenue to keep this organization at the artistic level it is known for. So if you agree turning a world class orchestra into a regional orchestra then you are part of the problem
The San Diego Symphony has been doing this while they wait for their main venue to be remodeled. It is a good idea. It brings the orchestra to suburbs that are some distance away from where they normally perform and makes it accessible to more people.
David Robertson, California born, might be a future option for musical director. Saw him conduct in Toronto last fall & he seemed very engaging & charismatic too.
Also about tours: all orchestras play more or less the same reportoire. Why play what a local orchestra could play?
It’s weird, here in Michigan, orchestras seem to peer pressure each other to play certain repertoire. There was one point where most of them did Brahms 4 in the same season, then around 2018-2022 everyone had to do Mahler 2. Now it seems to be Carmina Burana this Spring.
Why play concertos at all on tour? It seems impossible to tour without a name soloist or two. It's the orchestra that's touring. The big name soloist is probably booked to play with the local orchestra at some point. If you're going to tour at all, they should be all orchestra only concerts. That's certainly the way it once was.
Years ago the music critic for the Ann Arbor Observer got into hot water for claiming that that the major orchestras booked into the University of Michigan's prestigious May Festival considered Ann Arbor as only the warm up for their next stop in Cleveland, Philadelphia or New York. So we weren't necessarily getting the best from the great orchestras which thought of us as Hicksville.
Is Ann Arbor really considered "Hicksville" by major orchestras??? I thought the Hill Auditorium was very highly regarded by musicians. It was one of Rachmaninov's favorite places to play. (I will admit though, the stage isn't quite deep enough for some of the larger orchestras. Musicians in the front sometimes look like they'll fall off the stage if they lean over too far!)
When I attended the U of M I regularly went to Hill auditorium and saw some terrific artists. The Philadelphia Orchestra with Ormandy and Muti had a residency there every year for decades. Those days are almost all gone now.
Then the estemmed music critic had no idea what he was talking about. The May Festival was not a single concert, it was originally a 3, then a 4 day series of concerts from 1894 - 1982. The May Festival ended in 1982 after Eugene Ormany and the Philadelphia Orchestra completed a 46 year run. They tried continuing it with other orchestras, but could not sell out seats over 4 days. I used to attend toward the end, the Philadeplhia would sell out acoustically wonderful Hill Auditorium -- with a seating capacity of 3,500 . The University Musical Society still has 3 or 4-day residencies of major orchestras, where the New York Philharmonic a few years ago conducted classes at their presitgous music school and also played in front of a 105,000-plus audience at halftime at a football game (which they must have gotten a kick out of). Multi-day "residencies" have also been held with San Francisco and Berlin. But as far as visiting orchestras are concerned, their main concern is that seats "sell out" in large halls on their tours.
I heard Leonard Bernstein and the Vienna Philharmonic perform three concerts in Hill auditorium.
@@eddihaskellestemmed?
Slatkin would be great in SF, but yes….a young American conductor could set a standard.
Very well said, Dave. Music is an art, but it’s also a business. The SFSO is an excellent group and we all hope it continues to be so, but it’s basic purpose is to sell itself, or it will never survive.
Disappointing that you see this as greed and ego. Salonens plans for the SFS were much more ambitious than going on tour and included numerous commissions and innovative new programming directions. Maybe we could look at how much the board pays themselves and what benefits members of the board might see from their planned 200 million dollar renovation of Davies hall?
PS There are no orchestras where the musicians are paid in the "high six figures."
As of the 2018-2019 season, here are the top 10 highest-paid concertmasters in the United States:
Frnk Huang at the New York Philharmonic: $629,738
Alexander Barantschik at the San Francisco Symphony: $587,876
Robert Chen at the Chicago Symphony: $573,698
Martin Chalifour at the Los Angeles Philharmonic: $564,237
Malcolm Lowe at the Boston Symphony: $513,266
David Kim at the Philadelphia Orchestra: $470,507
Nurit Bar-Josef at the National Symphony: $424,158
Alexander Kerr at the Dallas Symphony: $329,629
Timothy Lees at the Cincinnati Symphony: $310,708
David Halen at the Saint Louis Symphony: $302,387
Of those you listed only 5 are above 500k, which to me is still not "high six figures." But, even so that is 5 musicians out of how many total orchestra musicians in America?? I'd guess it's less than a tenth of on percent. The reality is that very few orchestra musicians are even making a six figure salary at all.
I think that painting orchestra musicians as greedy is deeply unfair and completely unrealistic. Perhaps you've been listening to old dusty CDs for so long you've forgotten that these are real people with real lives trying to buy houses and raise families.
@@MichaelDavisViolist Most if not all major big name orchestras are getting paid 6 figures.
@@steven4570 Your proof?
@@MichaelDavisViolist I think you have a point. Dave makes great points, but quoting salaries of concertmasters rather overstates his case, And, as he no longer attends concerts, salaries may seem exorbitant indeed.
Orchestras exist to serve the local community (with first-rate music making, it goes without saying). Scaling down ambitions can be a good thing. Overseas tours - and much else, including patronising exercises in social engineering - are too often ego-trips for a vastly expensive conductor and orchestral players. How often does a major music critic say these things? *Almost never*. But you just did. Bravo. Come to London and repeat the message; it will annoy all the right people.
Well said, Dave. You offer a valuable perspective on this issue. I would add that foreign tours are even more superfluous these days, in the age of streaming video. If you want to give your orchestra that kind of exposure - give them a TH-cam channel and livestream your concerts!
These days, it seems like the shelf life of a typical Music Director is about 10 years in one town, no more. MTT was the exception, not the rule. LA had Esa for about that long, and then he left. Then they found Gustavo, and now he's leaving for Berlin. It is what it is - and with so much movement, it shouldn't be hard for San Francisco to find someone who will do quite well. You are right - I'm sure there are plenty of good young American conductors (as MTT was once) who would love the opportunity.
Dudamel is going to NY Phil.
@@violadamore2-bu2ch That's right, he's going to NY. I couldn't resist replying to Dave before the coffee kicked in. 😅I'll miss him because the orchestra always sounded so crisp and precise under his baton, but someone will turn up to replace him.
@@douglassun8456 LA does have a lean sound when I hear their concerts on the radio.
MTT is 79. He was probably 53 or 54 when he became MD of SFS. SFS doesn't necessarily need someone young, it needs someone good.
@@joeschmeaux6765 In this case, "young" means "looking for an opportunity worthy of their ability." MTT - and Simon Rattle - were both associates in LA before finding Music Director positions elsewhere. I'm sure there are a lot of capable conductors on their way up who are floating around, looking for an opportunity such as San Francisco would afford them; they just aren't famous yet,
I agree with foreign touring, total waste of time and money. traveling through their respective states with educational residencies would be a far better use of the orchestra and benefit the taxpayers.
They already perform in the surrounding cities in the Bay Area and had a great series of educational concerts until the board decided to slash those too
Remarkable that Tilson Thomas was there 20 plus years and then this tenure so much shorter. Unfriendly the pay structure is too high in the US and should follow the Europe model where salaries are more middle class. Greed and lack of money . Amen the tours are a waste of time and an ego trip. Also im not holding my breathe for the compositions of Salonen
Touring makes little sense today because orchestral sound has become homogenized. They all sound similar - the "Philadelphia sound" is gone, the Chicago brass don't really have the same discernible edge over other top orchestras that the enjoyed in decades past. The general technical abilities of orchestra musicians at all levels are at historic highs, and in the top orchestra achieve the practical limits of the instruments. It just can't be better. So why do we need to hear that other orchestra?
We also educate far more musicians than we need. Even as society has reduced its need for live musicians, we create as many as ever. Lots of music majors are out there doing other work for lack of performing opportunities. Strangely, that surfeit has not mitigated the insane salaries that put the top orchestra musicians in the top 5% of earners in the US on those salaries alone, before adding in other income from soloing, teaching, etc.
A bit disheartening to hear your disdain for touring, but sensible facts. My musical education in NY and Chicago was partly through touring ensembles. Selfish of me I know...
I envy that about living in the West in a major city. Access to world class orchestras all year round.
So Salonen is losing out on premiering a horn concerto with a great horn section because they can't do it in the right town?
You are right about Salonen's horn concerto: why does it have to be premiered on the shores of Lake Lucerne? Why can't it be premiered in San Francisco? Salonen can do what he wants, but we should not kid ourselves: there is more than a little ego involved on his part for wanting to premiere it in Lucerne, not San Francisco.
Common sense rules as usual on this channel - especially where the issue of orchestral tours is concerned - but we are dealing here with big egos and orchestral prestige.I recall John Eliot Gardiner's manic Bach tour of Germany a few years back:the ego had truly landed...
Manic how?
The best, most succinct definition of a major cultural institution's mission I've heard.
"Serving the people of San Francisco". THANK YOU. Orchestra tours are a waste of money? THANK YOU.
Why do we keep going through this song and dance? An orchestra is a COMMUNITY organization.
Attended the SF Symphony performance in LA last Friday evening - our first at Disney Hall. Solonen, as might be expected given the recent news, was received as a god. Was amazed and appalled that between one-quarter and one-third of the audience, at what I thought was a temple of sophisticated classical music, clapped between movements of the Sibelius violin concerto and then during breaks in the John Adams piece that followed, thoroughly breaking the flow and ambiance of these pieces. How is this possible?
I was there too and was taken aback aby the applause between movements. I've attended serveral performances in LA and have never experienced this. I went to the late morning concert with Adams conducting and the audience didn't do this.
Wonderful performance of the Sibelius concerto and Naive and Sentimental Music.
I have attended hundreds of orchestral music concerts, mostly with my local group, the Utah Symphony, and clapping between some movements has come to be fairly routine overall. 50% is likely accurate -- perhaps a bit less. Some nights it is only after one movement, and some nights it does not happen at all. But I think most of those who clap are genuinely showing that they just enjoyed what they heard. And I have talked to more than a few musicians: most do not mind the clapping, or even like it. "...a temple of sophisticated classical music..." is an invention of "modern" decorum for orchestral music concerts.
The notion of "flow and ambience" in orchestral concerts to my mind is an entirely personal one.
Although it will never stop -- it is human nature -- most live orchestral concerts I attend have at least a dozen -- or many dozen -- coughs by the audience dispersed throughout the evenings' performances. Some coughs are loud, some soft, and some are barely audible. They do not bother me much any more, but I submit that they -- coughs - can and often do break up the "flow and ambience" of a performance far more than clapping between movements. I would gladly take clapping after one or even several movements on an almost constant basis if I could experience single movements let alone entire symphonies on a far more consistent basis without more than a handful of coughs.
Then again, experiencing almost no audience noises or sounds is what the commercial recordings are for in a certain sense, since even the ones made from multiple "live" performances edit out the coughs using the takes from the other performances or takes from a "patch" session or two after the final public performance.
Dr. Dave seems correct in essentially everything he says. Yes, hearing a visiting top-tier orchestra is great, but it now seems a luxury that most of the classical-world can ill afford (e.g., the Thailand Philharmonic, in which your humble correspondent used to play viola, took a big financial bath in bringing the Berlin Phil and "The Dude" Gustavo D. to its Bangkok "suburb" home Prince Mahidol Hall. And we TPO musicians were playing at the grand opening of a luxurious riverside mall and apartment complex in downtown BKK and could not attend the BPO concert ourselves anyway...)~
It often seems that the visiting bands are galvanized by playing in the great halls, admittedly, but surely the rigours of touring are not amenable to orchestral musicianly health (e.g., This was the main focus of the reporting on a recent National S.O. (of Washington) tour in Europe--players sick and fatigued, many with young family members in tow. That alone-- the human cost, not the financial cost-- is something to consider as well).
I also live in San Francisco and have neighbors in the orchestra. @joeshmoe9272 and I may be neighbors. But I have a different take. I believe Salonen's preference for new and experimental music rather than the old standards has probably been financially bad for the orchestra because, like it or not, "regular folks"--large audiences--are more attracted to the standards. I suspect the Board figured this out and that is the basis for the disagreement with Salonen. But everyone should know that the SF Symphony is not short of funds and continues to plan an amazingly expensive and silly renovation of Davies Symphony Hall. That should be cancelled as the first measure to save money if they feel they need to do that. I'll cr__ over the Board for that more than for Salonen leaving.
But let me be clear: I pretty much agree with everything you are saying.
It might be much easier to get a large donation to rebuild (what is becoming dated) Davies Symphony Hall than to get a gift to have the Symphony tour. Just like David Geffen was able to finance a large part of the rebuilding of Avery Fisher Hall in New York for naming rights, someone like Mark Zuckerberg could easily come up with $500 million for naming rights for a rebuilt hall. (Zuckerbeg Sympony Hall at Davies Performing Arts Center). The City of San Francisco could also get into the act and kick in some funds for a new guarded Performing Arts Garage as part of the "revitalization" of downtown.
I suspect you’re right about too much new music hurting ticket sales. My reaction to nearly every new work is “That was alright, but I could care less if I ever heard it again.”
I think many others feel the same. 😎🎹
The Palm Beach Sympony is my local orchestra now (no longer San Francisco) and Gerard Schwarz, our Music Director, has premiers it seems at every concert. Bright Sheng, a composer, premiered two of his pieces to open our season and they were actually wonderful. They reminded me of Sibelius. @@MarshallArtz007
How much "new music" is too much? I heard a lady complain about "all that Stravinsky and other modern music". To many of us, that's "old hat". It's not possible to please everybody all the time, and I have no interest in attending concerts with the same few pieces played over and over.
The practice that I don't like, though: Scheduling a ten-minute new piece at the start of the program to "get it out of the way", so one can have another run-through of the Dvorak Eighth. There is a lot of "in between" music out there that deserves repertory status that almost never gets played (e.g., "Lutoslawski's Concerto for Orchestra", the symphonies of Walter Piston" , lots of stuff by Jennifer Higdon). We could debate what "new music" is, but '"hurting ticket sales" can work both ways. Some "traditionalists" demand that EVERY piece on a program be a potboiler That attitude will eventually haunt them.
@@donaldjones5386 This is supposedly about money-the money to pay for wide exploration and experimentation in the musical catalogue. Therefore, “too mich” is more than the local audience wants to hear. The definition isn’t about your taste or any individual’s. It’s about what does or doesn’t fill the seats in the hall. If the orchestra is playing pieces people who are just casual listeners to orchestral music never heard of by compsers they never heard of, many seats are likely to be empty and there won’t be money to pay for any of the sorts of things Salonen evidently wants to do.
Damn Dave! Facts!!