Aside from feats and archetypes, It doesn't hurt to just ask the DM to tweak a class. It takes time for some multi-classing synergies to work because you get detoured by mechanical prerequisites. If you want a whip using rogue, you'll get it faster by asking "Can I switch one of these starting weapon proficiencies with a whip, instead of starting as a fighter?" Providing you're a good sport about what you're trying to do, a DM will probably allow it.
I agree completely. Played a game where my teifling dragon sorcerer was the son of a noble family. To hide his demonic visage, they conscripted a wizard to create a ring that made him look human. GM was like "Doesn't break the game, sure." While we were at it, since he was nobility, he was proficient fighting with a rapier.
I completely agree. One ability I love is Shadow Step from Way of Shadow monk, which would be a super fun ability to have on a variety of classes, but it's at level 6, so you can't really dip for it. Shadar Kai sort of have this ability, but it's not quite the same as the leaping from shadow to shadow ability that monks have. Could implement this to maybe be an ability of a magical item, probably one that requires attunement since it could be a potent ability when you don't have to dip 6 levels into monk to gain it. Or heck, swap out a class ability with shadow step if your GM is cool with it.
Most minor stuff like that can be fixed by backgrounds, and a lot of it is even covered in the PH backgrounds (even specifically whips, which you can get from taking the Entertainer Background variant Gladiator, which allows for a character to learn tridents, nets, or whips)
As someone who is positioned, and to quite the degree, on the storytelling over mechanics end of the spectrum, I've frequently multiclassed to better represent the capabilities of a character who isn't properly covered by any one mechanical class. It's a toolbox, what matters is what you use it for, not whether or not you use it at all..
how can one need a special mechanic to roleplay anything that is not covered in fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard i will never understand. i just dont see how anything else is needed. although paladins are cool.
@@Arnsteel634 You've GOT to be joking, right? NATURE MAGES, everything from Witches to Shamans to Druids, is the easiest low-hanging fruit which just instantly kills that comment, not to even TRY to get into the more complex and deep character archetypes.
Modify/create a class... For every addition of a benefit, take something else away. Druid started as a modified cleric with some added spells, but some other spells that they could never get. The split in 5e between Warlock and Wizard is essentially such a split of the original Mage class. (a carry-over of the specialist Mage subclasses from Unearthed Arcana 2nd Edition rules expansion) Make a lightning-spells-only Thunderwarrior (Mage-fighter) class if you want. Sorry, you get the D8 hit die, not the D10 of a fighter and can't use metal armor. (wearing metal you take full damage of your own spells, no save and you cant fix it no matter what you do.) Shocking hands delivered while doing a strike with a longsword... Pretty good power at low level.
For my money it depends on what I'm wanting to do with a character. But if I'm wanting to power game, I'm going with pure Cleric. Level 10 gets me Divine Intervention which can act like Wish once per day.
Capstone abilities (level 20 abilities) are either amazing or trash. For example: Barbarian: You become stronger and more resilient than any other adventurer in existence. Amazing! Bard: When you roll initiative and have no uses of Bardic Inspiration left, you regain one use. Trash! Cleric: Once a week, you can have the help of a literal god. Amazing! Ranger: Once on each of your turns, you can add your Wisdom modifier to the attack roll or the damage roll of an attack you make against one of your favored enemies. You can choose to use this feature before or after the roll, but before any effects of the roll are applied. Trash! Druid: You have unlimited uses of wild shape, and you can cast most spells in your wild shape form. Amazing!
In the game with my group, our Fighter is multiclassing into Warlock. Him and our DM took a whole week back-and-forthing how it would work, and I think they did a great job including it in our game's story.
As an avowed power gamer I definitely multi class, however I almost always do it for thematic reasons and try to milk some roleplay out of the comedy that ensues
@@ToabyToastbrot It's also straight up powergaming at that point. For me, you need a legitimate, story reason to multiclass in the first place. A Fighter doesn't magically become a full on Wizard or vice versa overnight. I would strictly keep it to two classes as well. Simply telling me what you intend to do with your character from the get go is more than enough to get me on board, and I'll set up the world to make it happen. If those prerequisites are meant, feel free to multiclass whatever you want. Some classes I'm pretty lenient on because it makes sense immediately. Barbarian/Fighter blends really easily so I'll allow it off the bat. Ranger and Rogue is another one that's pretty easy to work with. Gloomstalker Ranger with Rogue is a strong combo and my personal favorite. Been also thinking about doing a Samurai/Zealot mix because I'd love to play a Barbarian with more extra attacks and Wisdom proficiency. If you can work a cool idea like that into your backstory, then go for it.
@@cold_Lightning9 If taking a third class makes a character weaker, by what logic is it power gaming? Certain three-way splits are traditions from the older editions of D&D, and the origin of the Bard class actually stems from one such three-way (hence why it has its hands in so many pies). And in any case, I can think of numerous legitimate story reasons to multiclass 3 ways. Quick example, you want a vampire hunter so you start ranger for the tracking, dip rogue for the stealth and subterfuge needed to even find the things, and then make a pact with some dark, mysterious entity who also hates vampires so that you have magic to counteract that of the vampires. That is one, cohesive character concept that uses abilities from 3 different classes. It sacrifices a lot of power for everything that it gains, but it holds together story-wise. Or you've also got those who actually change class partway through the game due to some story reason; will you forbid them from choosing a second class now that they've switched, or will you make them rebuild their entire character under the new class and then allow them to multi-class? I'll say this: playing one class is much simpler and it's generally stronger. Playing two gets more complicated, sacrifices some power for versatility, and defines a character as something outside the norm. Playing three classes adds even more complexity, sacrifices a lot more power, and probably doesn't add nearly as much as the first split. But there are still reasons to do it and players who can pull it off. I agree with the original post, two classes is *generally preferable* to three. But don't set a hard and fast rule; make individual rulings when they arise.
@@Nurk0m0rath There are actually some really, strong optimal builds that utilizes the three way split, so while it can definitely make you overall weaker, it could certainly make you very strong as well. That Zealot/Samurai combo I mentioned before? Add one, maybe two levels of Warlock for that Hexblade ability. Extremely potent combo, especially on a single target where they can go all out on it. It does take careful planning to make it work, but you get my point. I've seen enough builds on the internet, and at the table, to show that multiclassing can certainly elevate a character, mechanically speaking. My issue really stems from the players over complicating their character, giving them an unnecessary amount of mechanics to keep track of, thus bogging down the game. Not to mention, upsetting the balance of combat with their munchin builds. I'm only speaking of personal experience of course, but it seems more troublesome and gamey to me. As for the point about hard line ruling, I fully disagree with that. Every DM has the absolute right to make a hardline rules on how the table is run, so long as it's fair and the party is aware and in agreement. This is what's normally done during a Session 0. Sure, ruling during the campaign is fine as well, just did it this past Friday on the topic of flanking in combat, but expectations can be set from the initial brief of the campaign. If it's not within your liking, then simply not play at that table. Or, test out the waters to see how well the ruling works in play, then deliver feedback and work through it with the DM. Bad, tyrannical DMs are a thing I hate, but entitled players who refuse to play along are just as bad. Would I disallowed a player for taking a specific path ingame, or make them forgo their development for the sake multiclassing? Please don't assume I'm going out of my way to completely ruin a person's fun simply because I'm iffy on the idea of selecting a third class. If that's what you were implying, then it's wrong. I go out of my way to elevate the players and their characters, and none of that includes splitting into three classes. They get that satisfaction from the worldbuilding and roleplay, but then again my group is different from others I suppose. That said, you have brought up valid cases where it would make logical, RP sense to have 3 classes. You more or less agree with my point about it making sense in the context of the character and their experience. Like I said, a Fighter doesn't become a Wizard overnight and vice versa, etc. If a player is interested in taking their character in a direction, I'm all for it , providing that it doesn't step on other players fun or disrupt the overall experience. I will say this; thank you though for not blindly insulting me due to my different opinion. Too many people resort to doing that at the whim in this community unfortunately, which discourages me from providing my opinion during these conversations. While I still am a little against the idea itself, I can concede on allowing a player to do it if they make a valid case like you said. At the end of the day, it's all about having fun, and I certainly want that to happen myself.
I was playing in a game where one of the characters was a 10th level fighter, and we actually saw him make his pact with a fiend when he took his first level of Warlock.
I have a rule when I DM, which is I want a justification for a multi-class. There needs to be a story/rp reason, not just "that ability is cool". I had reservations against some mixes, but having players give a reason has helped me understand the classes better and reduce my reservations. My favorite multi-class was actually 2e. Elf Fighter/Wizard/Thief. Good times
@NuzlockeGriff When I run the game, I want the player to create the reason. If latent abilities (ie sorcerers), then they should have a questionable ancestor or a dream or something to explain why. I don't limit them, I make them put story and RP behind the mechanics of the game. Immersion is improved, power gaming is reduced, stories are born, and everyone gets a better understanding of the mechanics by having to look them up when multi-classing.
A person born in an isolated village who learned the songs and stories of their people but were also taught the basics of combat and were known to have a temper. The Bardbarian, and their song of rage!
@@zeterzero4356 For that, I would say if that is a goal starting at lvl 1, to be a bard/barbarian, then I would suggest they start roleplaying that early. Bard first, play strong willed and angry when insulted or hit in battle (maybe even lash out with an attack vice a spell). If they told me, I could run with it to not hurt the party when they did so in combat. For Lvl 1. Barbarian first, well who doesn't enjoy battle hymns called out and insults laid upon their enemies? This would probably be safer for the party. And, if the went College of...Swords..? (from Volo's) I would let them go right to it without training under another in that College, so long as they kept the instruments simple (drums, horn, signing, inspirational speech etc). If they start out that way (ie starting beyond lvl 1), then that is a pretty good start of a back story. It gives some options for how they got into adventuring; maybe his temper got the best of him and he wounded someone in the tribe or insulted the leaders, or maybe she grew frustrated with the rules and male dominated society and left, or maybe something more tragic.
@NuzlockeGriff I actually have more experience with older systems, so in addition to it being a policy I've believed in since 3.0 (2e didn't have multi-classing as we see it now) it has helped me understand the rules governing the background side of characters. My biggest reservations come from those with solid ties to one thing, trying to go another way also. For example, why would a Paladin go Warlock? Yes, the abilities tie so nicely together, but why would a person closely bonded to their oath (and possibly faith if you carry it over from prior additions) suddenly "need" the power of some other being? Was their oath not driving them enough? What does that mean for the source of their power? How can they be sworn to (x) but also (x)??? In that case, I want a why, to help me understand, to force some story beyond "it's cool", to get the players thinking of the world and not just the mechanics, and to a fair degree to limit min/maxing. (edited to reference 2e)
Don’t forget DMs who ban feats and multiclassing, we are giving up a lot in order to multiclass. It’s a fair trade to make the game more fun. And isn’t that the aim?
If it was really a sacrifice most people wouldn't want to do it. All too often they are giving up something which doesn't matter that much for powerful combat abilities which can throw off the whole balance of the game.
@@toshomni9478 Some of the most unbalancing things in the game require sticking to a single class. One fun example would be a divination wizard of at least 15th level. With the spells Plane Shift and Demiplane they can remove any threat that doesn't have its own means of planar travel from the game permanently, without fail, thanks to portent. Wizards to me are the standard when determining if a multiclass is unbalanced. If it can't complicate the game more than the wizard, a staple class in D&D, then it probably shouldn't be an issue. And it definitely is a sacrifice. Just because someone thinks multiclassing is worth the sacrifice in order to play a concept they had in mind, it doesn't mean that there wasn't a sacrifice. This is especially true for any caster multiclass.
@@PhuckKnuckles I think the sacrifice falls off pretty hard though for charisma casters. It's pretty easy for a sorcerer to dip 2 levels of warlock and get the best cantrip in the game with invocations to augment it. The the only loss there is the ASI at level 19, which might not even be a big deal
@@jondubois5347 you also set yourself back two levels on your spell level, and because warlock is a separate spell slot calculation you also get set back on max spell slot level. Sure you'll catch up by level 20, but I've yet to play to level 20. You get something more consistent with EB, but you lose out on stronger spells which is a pretty fair trade. Quick casting EB is nice, but you'll eat up your sorcery points really fast early on, and there are usually better things you could have done with those points.
@@toshomni9478 How I know you're wrong is because even after they nerf spellcasters in PvP, purist spellcaster players still mop the floor in lvl 20 PvP battles. The reason people multiclass typically is because they allow for versatility and give you some pretty awesome support based abilities at the cost of raw power. I play ninja (rogue/warlock/monk) because it gives me decent speed and debuffs so that I can jump into a group of enemies and mess them all up with debuffs before disappearing. That combo is useful for helping the party but in terms of solo it's pretty useless.
I only multi-class if I cant use a single class or archetype to fit a characters concept or theme. A couple example of some characters i have made are a Druid/Ranger that is a feral child that wildshapes to fight along side a sibling, an Asimaar Zealot Barbarian/Devotion Paladin for a concept of a Diablo angel, and a Ranger/Blood Hunter who's story is he defended the local town from monsters till he was seduced into helping a demon work her way up the chain. Once she got to the top she attacked and left him for dead so he then joined an order of blood hunters to get his revenge.
I’ve tried many times to create a wood elf character that plays to the fantasy stories of wood elves I grew up on and no single class fits what I envision.
When I play a wood elf I'm typically going the archer route so its usually either hunter ranger, arcane archer fighter or a mix of both. Some times I will also did a beastmaster ranger tho that was in older editions as i don't care for the 5e BM subclass.
kasakuie I find myself leaning rogue scout but I want that bigger hit die because I think of elves as physically stronger than their high elf cousins in their cities and towers. But when I look at fighter/rogue build I don’t really like it. Fighter/ranger could be fun but I’m not a fan of the ranger class in D&D.
I had an idea for a multiclass Bard with 3 levels in Warlock to get Pact of the Chain. Their backstory was that the familiar they got from their patron writes their music for them, which the Bard then plays on stage for the audience. I can't decide whether their patron should be a Fiend, or an Arch Fey.
I find multiclassing to be a really great tool for people to build the character they wanna play. Sure, most use it as a way to get frontloaded abilities right outta the gate. But others, at least to my personal experience, want to build a character that is specifically tailored to what they want to do. Got one of my players playing a fighter/ranger. Just for the multiple fighting styles and the fact that he wants to play as true to a viking as possible with the fact that they used multiple types of weapons and such, not just one style and were relatively good with it. He was actually thinking of taking a barb level or two just so he could rage and become a berserk to fit his theme. I warn all my players of the dangers of multiclassing at wrong times and the possible downside to losing higher spells or features, etc. But, players gonna play. As long as they have fun and don't overshadow the rest of the group in terms of wanting the spotlight and do everything better than everyone, I'm totally down for it. After all, this is also a team game! Great video, great discussion, keep up the great work Nerdarchs!
Are you saying I only went Barbarian 1/Moon Druid 2 for the almost 200 effective HP and multiattacks at level 3 from bears? Because I'd certainly do it again...
I have no way of knowing if that's why you did it. :) I do know the cure for it though. Death effects anything that results in you dying because you went zero hp doesn't drop you out of wildshape. Just drops the character dead. Things like disintegrate, power word kill, and finger of death are the wildshape counters. Nerdarchist Dave
In 5e, Finger of Death just deals damage, with an effect IF the target dies. Disintegrate and Power Word Kill, however, do stipulate dropping to zero hitpoints just like wildshape stipulates that you drop to 0 hitpoints before damage carries over. Thanks for the warning!
@@junsonofjack3740 You can get past that with Fey Ancestry or Warforged, basically can't go to sleep if you...can't go to sleep. Death Effects then become your enemy again.
I actually made a Wild Sorcerer/Fey pact warlock with a back story that due to his powers manifesting I’m crazy ways and his overall control of that power was poor. He once blew up a part of a forest while trying to train to control his power, and it caught the attention of a powerful druid who arrived with his group to extinguish the fire and repair the forest. The Druid then took my character through a pathway to the Feywild to explained my situation to one of the fey, my party doesn’t know who the patron is because my dm and I have been working on an Animal Lord of some kind. Either something like a king of Salamanders or Lord of Tigers. Basically the patron after seeing how the power manifested, suggested that the best way to control the power would be to manifest it in a tool and use that to channel the power a different way. So he’s essentially been given a pact weapon to smite with by using his wild power. So far I’m having fun and having eldritch blast and casting find familiar while there to have a contracted small fey as a partner has made things pretty fun.
It is easy to see fewer options when you choose a class. I love the idea of multi-classing to promote your story, Even if it is only for the mechanics, it still drives your PCs story. I made a monk/entertainer recently. She is not a "monk" but an acrobat who learned how to protect herself on the road with different groups. Also, I got into a discussion recently about multi-classing subclasses, because why not? That actually seems more reasonable to me. Thanks for another thoughtful and thought provoking video!
Just started multiclassing into fighter after my Bard (level 4), created gunpowder. So my DM is allowing me to go forward as fighter to use Matt Mercer's gunslinger class. I've got to say, using story elements is so fun! Character's can change very often, so it's fun to see what makes them change, and how they continue after the change.
I have been playing a creation bard for almost two years. At level 10, she took two wizard spells from magical secrets and started to get a growing interest in wizard matters. Some levels later, we encountered a grimoire infinitus and my character simply couldn't resist the bling and the promise of spells. She took a level in wizard. She started investigating traditions, thinking the school traditions are boring. She met a chronurgist and a scribe. She decided to go for scribe because "oh my gosh I can awaken a book if I become a scribe?" And thus, a character created with zero multiclassing intentions became a spell photocopier. Turns out, doing an hour's work in a minute and spending a second level spell slot for ingredients is quite something.
I'm a Dragonborn Paladin and been thinking about going for that Draconic sorcerer multiclass. Fits really well thematically and seems like it would be more fun to play than just straight paladin.
I'm currently playing a shadow magic sorcerer and right before hitting lvl 6 and getting my shadow doggo i died but got revived by our cleric. Now I've came up with the idea that the shadow doggo followed me from the afterlife and I'm playing with the idea that maybe the hound is a servant to a higher power with which I made an unconscious pact. Thus I'm thinking of going sorc/undead warlock :D + the hound could be my way to get in contact with my patron... i love giving stuff a reasonable explanation and my DM is all for it :D
I created multiple broken multiclass combos in 4th. Paladin/warlock was one of those. Not as strong as a human Paladin multiclassing into invoker but still ridiculous. Warlock covers the Paladin's void in ranged attacks and damage and the Paladin gives the Warlock defenses when the warlock suffers in being the weakest DPS class. I found that the Psionic tank class was also good for Warlock. My second most ridiculous character in 4th was a true multiclass Druid/Invoker. Turns out that you have the most powerful Dailies in the game at every option. In Pathfinder I had an Aasimar whose Father was a Human Druid (The Lion King) and his mother was a Angel/Orc Aasimar who became an angel after dying and both her parents were Royalty. He took beast-bonded barbarian at first level and then went into hunter until he qualified for Mammoth Rider. He had the Adopted (Orc) background option so he could use the Orc Rager teamwork feat. The Barbarian allows me to make the mount rage. The hunter lets me give it my teamwork feat. I got Imperial bloodline sorcerer feats, which let you increase the morale bonuses by 1 which is similar to a bard or Paladin ability. He gets ridiculous morale bonuses to strength, constitution, attack and damage and then has an ally's familiar 'Moment of Glory' him on a lance charge attack. Not to mention that the Mount is a Huge Lion (Tiger) getting stupid bonuses, as well. So Comael, the Prince of Lions is a Human/Orc/Angel Barbarian/Ranger/Druid/Bard that kills everything in 1 hit, starting at about 9th level, while his Celestial Lion Brinrael, does whatever it feels like, including grappling dragons at, like 12th-13th level.
In my current game, I’m running an Arcane Trickster who has had an affectation for Magic’s for years, but just got his hands on a book. As well, we have a warforged sorcerer in our party that my character was able to connect with as they both are well read and want to study the arcane. I opted to pump lots of gold worth of supplies into a ritual to tap my character more directly into the weave. Within an inch of his life, my character survives the ritual and learns he can more adeptly use magical abilities of the Wizard class. A.K.A.: I feel like there needs to be some kind of trade off for it to make sense
I love multiclassing. I have a Cleric/Paladin/Wizard and a Fighter/Rogue/Wizard, both of which focus on magic as their background. For the most part, I don't multiclass, but it was just a natural progression for those two. When I DM I let my players do as they will to have fun so long as they can play their character effectively and not take 6 minutes reading over their sheet every turn.
Currently playing a paladin who started path of protection as he wished to protect his home land. He was however transported to a godless world, and his God being Hiemdal the literal god of loyalty, he was tempted by the archedeamon Levitus for a way out. His way out being to destroy the apocalyptic event going on so he granted him the powers of a hexblade warlock and turning him into an oath breaker paladin. Sounds cool until you also realize most of the enemies I'm killing are undead and oath breaker auras also help them as the rules dont say companions only...
@@Nerdarchy Fun when there is also a Cleric who is feeling the strain as well and he is working through not feeling his God while his abilities are weakened. And he stayed LG while I am now LE...
My multi class is 3-4 monster slayer ranger 16-17 battle master fighter. I did it mostly for flavor since I don’t feel rangers beyond the archetype really get much better. And now I am solely just going for the ultimate slayer.
Love multi classing personally. It's been around since ad&d. Yes you can power game or rp it you don't always have to use it as power gaming just ad a thematic element to your character. I personally have a favorite character of mine from 3ed who I want to make as a 5e. A death cleric who's a Merc back ground. He was the cleric for his Merc group and seeing all that death cause that's what you do as a merc led him to that so he did the healing but also knew how to fight and when people fell he did the blessing for the dead. But after reacher 6th level his god told him he had to learn of death and gain his own power to be a better servant so with that he multiclassed into necromancer to better understand the energies of it and also gain his own power through study and hard work. He took that to like 14th level. Now he can heal, keep friends from dying, bless the dead, creat undead, and keep his goal of balance between life, death, unlife, and rebirth. So he didn't go super crazy with the undead unless he later destroyed his own army of undead to keep a balance. Not to mention he loved silver pay that man in silver lol. But that character showed roleplay, being powerful in mele and magic, also staying withen a line of morals and flaws. Super long comment but what are your favorite multiclassed characters you've played and how did they get there? Rp, mechanical, just random?
And sometimes the mechanics of a single class just don't match what you Want out of that class! Sure, I could try and pick apart the closest class, cutting stuff down to add in what I want, and then begging the GM to agree with it, living under constant scrutiny to make sure that my cobbled together Warlocerer isn't overpowered... Or I could simply multiclass a little, take a few levels from Warlock to pick up the abilities I want that Sorcerer won't get, and combine them into a whole that, while usually slightly lesser [easy example, lower level or delayed spellcasting] in some way, flows through to fit the concept I have better.
The only multiclasser in my current campaign is a Ranger/Storm Sorcerer. When they were visiting a tribe of Storm Giants they had just saved from a group of dragons; when they were talking to their leader about the powers they possessed, the leader told them that some "tiny races" could handle the strength of the storm, if they had the right blood for it. This ended up with 3 of them becoming excited about the idea of finding out about their ancestors and partaking on a ritual atop a mountain that, after many shenanigans, ended with a lightning striking each of them (the party Wizard was super freaking glad he decided to not try it, I played it like a straight up lightning, two of the three even went down and started rolling death saves after they were hit, his character could have easily gone straight to death with that damage xD). The barbarian and the cleric were wrecked like hell, and didn't get much out of it; the ranger found out she had storm blood. After this point I started to describe how she creates some small magic electricity effects, and a few days later, when they had gained enough xp to reach level 10, I told her "you now have the option to gain another level in ranger, or gain your first level in sorcerer". All the others *can* do multiclasses, they just haven't yet; the only thing I require to allow a character multiclassing, is that it makes sense in the story; it makes sense that a woman who went through a sacred ritual to awaken her storm sorcery will begin to have sorcerer powers. It doesn't make sense that, after killing another troll with your fireballs, your wizard gains a level of fighter just because you really want that Action Surge. If you want something like that in my games, you better be ready to make your wizard join the fighters guild or the army and get through a lot of training, instead of just deciding that over night you suddenly learned how to cleave people in half with a great sword.
In the current campaign I'm playing, 2 of 5 players decided to multiclass. We started the campaign at a relatively high level (13), and both myself and one other player took a dip into the Hexblade class, largely I think in both cases for mechanical reasons. He is playing a Paladin, and I am a College of Swords Bard, and being able to use CHA as a melee attack ability is such a huge benefit to both classes that it is hard to ignore. That said, I think in that putting this together in my backstory led to a very interesting and conflicted character. Her patron lives within a sword she acquired, and at the table I have been using it as sort of a Two Face mechanic where I roll Persuasion vs Deception on myself to see whether my (good-aligned) character or my (evil-aligned) patron win the test of will. This has caused a couple fairly interesting moments at the table, and I have found the character extremely enjoyable. Conflict is always great at the table, and internal conflict just adds another level to it. So, I guess it can sometimes be both. a "powergaming" decision mechanically led to a far more interesting and conflicted character than I would have come up with otherwise. So far, the results have been outstanding - to the point where my character took a sabbatical from the campaign and group to resurrect a bunch of guards that the party slaughtered in an overly-aggressive rampage. I played an NPC for a session and a half and turned him over to the DM afterwards to hopefully be part of the campaign later.
While you can definitely make some powerful munchkin builds with multiclassing. Most multiclassing builds I've seen have been by people who either want something very specific that they can't get from one class, or because they want to broaden their utility. Like how I have occassionally 2-dipped Warlock as Sorcerer, or 3-dipped sorcerer as Warlock to achieve my idea of an an Arcane sniper. How often do the situations come up where i can actually utilize my 1200 foot range on a distant Eldritch Blast? Not often, but boy is it fun when it does. Then there is the flipside of the coin. Where I generalized by going Armorer 6/Rogue 3 (Mastermind)/Bard 3(Lore) as a shifty craftsman/skill monkey. Was I particularly strong in combat? God no, but I had fun crafting/repairing the party's gear, winning card games, and playing on my lute. (As a note, do not do this type of build in an undersized party. It will not go well.
I play a lot of Destiny. Joining late into a dnd 5e game with some friends I started as a level 8 sun soul monk. Reflavoring the level 3 radiant sun bolt into radiant throwing knives, I got a real sense I was a Hunter Gunslinger throwing knives left and right. When the dm awarded me a revolver I quickly named the Last Word I began multiclassing into Devotion Palidan. At level three with a Sacred Weapon in the form of a revolver I've got a Golden Gun wielding Guardian in DnD. Favorite character ever.
I have a Dwarf named Kildrak Battleforge who started as lvl 1 Fighter because of his family background, but then suffered a military loss because of the natural magical abilities of the Dueargar. So he ended up taking the Sage background and started studying and practicing magic, (Fight fire with fire scenario). Because it's a power game build I wanted to test but also wanted to find a fun and interesting story to back it up.
If your play till level 20 multiclass characters are actually much weaker with a few rare exceptions that are usually 2 levels in either fighter, cleric, or warlock; with the other 18 in the main class.
Most powerful multiclass imo is Rogue2/Wizard 18 at lv 20 or even Arcane Trickster 3/ Wizard 17 to stay as an 18th level caster and even get Mage hand Legerdemain, though you'd lose spell mastery.
@@TuariD those don't stack well at all. You can't apply the sneak attack to spells so you get a couple extra skills and dash or hide as a bonus action. The only benefit I see is turning invisible and hiding in the same turn. The 2 in fighter instead casts a 9th and 8th level spell in the same round for example. Warlock 2 sorc 18 makes 8 attacks with eldritch blast every turn till basically the end of time. Or 1 in cleric with classes like rogue, bard or warlock makes them no longer squishy.
@@Dragonspassage I think you underestimate the power of a wizard with cunning action. Every turn they can dash, disengage, or hide essentially for free. The dpr isn't as high as what you suggest but the utility os pretty great. You don't have to waste a spell using misty step to get away, dash gives you enough movement for great spacing, and if you pick up skulker there's a lot you can hide in as lightly obscured(even behind other people. Which means that if you use expertise on stealth you can hide from almost anything. Even things with truesight or blindsight don't really get a chance to see you if you find something to partially obscure yourself behind. No sight, no targeting, no damage (unless they go scorched earth.) If you go enchantment wizard and have 3 in rogue you can go thief or AT which allows you to hypnotise people and literally strip them naked. It's some shenanigans.
My idea was starting out as sorcerer and taking two levels of Warlock for the eldrich blast, hex, agonizing blast, and repelling blast. Then pick up metamagic quickened spell, and magic missile. Basically you could cast hex and on your next turn cast eldrich blast as your action, and magic missile as a bonus action with quickened spell. (3d4+3+3d6+2d8+6+2d6)average 37 DMG @ lev 5 likely one shot a creature on your first turn. This would also push the creature back 20 feet assuming both blasts hit Also you always get those two Warlock lev1 spell slots back after a short rest.
@@anonanonymous1988 hex is a bonus action so you can use elditch blast on the same turn. Eldritch blast is 1d10 per ray. Hex triggers off of attack rolls. Magic missile has no attack roll so it doesn't trigger hex. At lv 5 you're looking at 2d10+6, and 2d6. Second turn would be 2d10+6, 2d6, 3d4+3. It's not bad, but of you went full sorc you could just as well fireball and be guaranteed damage with the half on save vs none if you miss.
Way back in 2nd edition we had a cleric get abducted by Orcus for a few game sessions (he was busy irl) and we made a deal with Orcus to do a task for him to get the cleric back. He came back with a alignment change (no penalty), -1 con(for being tortured for weeks in the abyss) and he gained a bunch of demonic abilities(kinda warlockish). It was a huge trade off to explain his in-game absence.
that intro inspired me to pick up my guitar again cause if dave can play a flute..damned be Selune if i can't learn to play guitar (again) ^^ seriously though; great points on MC'ing guys, it never has been my thing unless it is for story-purposes ( guess it stems from seeing players purely doing it for mechanical benefits and giggle about it which I found to be very annoying) but you guys made a fair analysis of it :)
@@Nerdarchy Infinite shields is fantastic for an abjurist. Charge the ward every round. Infinite illusion spells for an illusionist on the other hand... much more effective in its own right
I totally disagree, I can think of a few iconic characters/character concepts who are "muticlassed" honestly, GMs who disallow it are the same kind of GMs who get pissed when you play your character "too well"
@@vernonhampton5863 my guess is you have a character who is designed to deal a bunch of single target damage and end up wiping out the big bad in 1 shot. Or a warlock with the mask of many faces and the actor feat who can basically become anyone (picture the T-1000 from terminator)
In the new 2E pathfinder playtest, I built a Level 7 Druid with the Monk archetype. I had a Full grown Panda Bear companion and worked off of him with Tiger Style martial arts. Probably the most fun I’ve ever had multiclassing any character. Panda’s name was Po
I learned of an interesting idea for a multiclass build. Lightfoot Halfling Beastmaster Ranger, with Arcane Trickster Rogue, kind of like a "Pintsized Paratrooper" Character, taking advantage of the Pteranodon being a Medium sized flying creature that a lightfoot Halfling could hide behind, and the Arcane Trickster Rogue giving access to "Featherfall", and "Message". You could possibly do it as a Druid or other Summoner, instead of having a pet Pteranodon, you could summon one....but yeah, an interesting idea that I'm hoping to play with if my current character dies XD
I once played an Oath of the Ancients Paladin/Fiend pact Warlock who didn't realize they weren't a Druid; the Fiend had convinced them it was a nature god. Class is just a meta way to describe your character.
For my second character in a Dark Sun game I was playing recently I made a half giant barbarian focused on grappling. Multi-classed rogue for Athletics expertise and was planning on a few levels of fighter for some maneuvers and action surge. Unfortunately the campaign imploded before I got to do much grappling.
My first ever character in First Edition was an elf Fighter/Magic User. This was in 1979. The experience level numbers were specific to the character classes so not every class advanced at the same rate. Magic Users progressed much more slowly than Fighters. I would put half my experience points in each class and hope for a level once in a while. That was a totally fun character.
I’m currently building a rogue-bard... in the commander of a group of mercenaries, and some of the bardic spells mix REALLY well with the mastermind rogue. As well as bardic inspiration to aid my allies, and the lore bard’s cutting words to keep them relatively safe. I’m re-skinning some of the spells and abilities so that they aren’t obviously magic or obviously bardic in nature, and I think it’ll play really really well. :D
Currently playing a multiclass that is 3 ranger and 3 fighter going into Horizon walker and arcane archer. Current plan is to go 13 ranger/ 7 fighter. I really love the synergy these two subclasses bring.
I've so far only multiclassed once, and I think it really works for character development above all else. I went into a game with the idea of making a human rogue with the healer feat, and the fast hands feature of thief in order to get a doctor type character. As I looked through the rogue levels past 3, and decided that none fit the doctor theme, so I looked at other classes to go into, and found Mercer's bloodhunter... The mutant subclass was so perfect. This general doctor with his conditions eventually bacame a mad scientist, chemically induced fighter type character with a little re-flavoring
Played a Saurian ZealotBarb4/BruteFighter11/VengeancePaladin5. Started 1 level in Barb, went 6 fighter, 3 more barb, then 5 paladin, then finished with the last 5 in fighter. The build started out with me wanting to play a Dinosaurman Barbarian/Fighter multiclass focusing more on Brute, and taking Zealot because I thought the Warrior of the Gods trait looked nice just in case I died and we didn't have the materials to bring me back. As the character took shape and the DM and I spoke about story we actually came up with the beginnings of a pretty cool character and I was later inspired to expand upon it from a Roleplay perspective with the Paladin class which synergized quite well with what I already had going. For his backstory we said that that he and a select few others of his kind by magical means survived an apocalyptic event that wiped out all civilization (basically the asteroid that took out the dinosaur's equivalent to DnD) He's found in a magical stasis by the rest of the party while exploring the ancient ruins of his city and joins up with them while trying to survive as one of the last of his kind and find a place in the current world while still holding fast to the traditions and faith of his ancient long dead empire. As his story and the game progressed he found that his gods (giant celestial space dinosaurs :D ) still lingered in the stars or something (I forget) and he was eventually blessed by them empowering his strength (as a Barbarian path of the Zealot) then by the 3rd quarter of the campaign (around level 12 or 13) he discovers that Tiamat and her army of chromatic dragons that his people waged war against were responsible for the catastrophe that wiped out his civilization several millennia ago because his empire had magical artifacts capable of sealing her away. (Tiamat and the dragons ended up being tied into most of our party's storylines and was our big bad at the end of the campaign which was the first time we ever had anything so heavily draconic) With that revelation he swore his Oath of Vengeance against her and all chromatic dragons that he would avenge his fallen people and his gods that had been forgotten by the world. All in all, I rolled some pretty good stats, which allowed me to take some useful feats while only needing to take one ASI for stats, and this multiclass build was both fairly tanky and dealt some pretty sick damage. Even took the Find Steed spell and my DM allowed me to summon a Parasaur for my mount for flavor :D. Easily my favorite campaign, and one of the only few that went to 20 and lasted a while after.
Honestly most of my favourite builds are tri-classes. I don't do it for power-gaming reasons, but to create the unique concepts not covered by the core concepts. I love the ninja for example. You make one this way: pick Human variant, ask the GM if you can swap your proficiency with a fighting style provided they thematically pair. One example is two weapons fighting and duel wielder. Alternatively, archery and sharpshooter go well together thematically. Otherwise just pick a lightfoot halfling instead. Put your first level in rogue, since they get the best saves and the most proficiencies of the 3 classes. The level 20 build is this: Rogue (Assassin) [3 levels], Warlock (Archfey) [6 levels], Monk (Shadow) [11 levels). For feats, pick either sharpshooter or duel wielder depending on if you're going melee or ranged. Pick warcaster so you can cast magic, have advantage on maintaining concentration and can wield your weapon while fighting. Put your next 4 levels after rogue into either monk or warlock so you get the feat warcaster early on. The essence of this build is to pick warlock spells that debuff, like faerie fire and cause fear. In one battle as a ninja/battle jester I cast faerie fire on a troupe of orcs, they all failed their save and granted advantage to the party on attacks against them. I then used an Acrobatics roll to jump over one of them (granting him an attack of opportunity where he missed) then I landed in the middle of their group and used fey presence. They all failed their saves again and were afraid of my character causing disadvantage on all their attacks against the rest of the party (but not me because I was flanked on all sides initially). It was a lot of fun though. I wasn't the damage dealer, but I gave everyone a huge advantage that allowed them to mop the floor with the orcs.
i recently created a paladin warlock multiclass who was on a mission for his church when he stumbled upon a possessed weapon, which picked at his insecurities to have him use it, and is now trying to gets its own agenda forwarded by going “look, i helped you out, now you help me” so pretty excited with where my dm decides to go with this
Multi classing is an optional rule which I do allow but require any additional classes beyond the 2nd and so on to keep increasing the Prime Ability score requirement to be 2 points higher for the new class. this helps to keep down those who want a level in every class.
Paladin 2 + Abjuration Wizard is so much fun. Heavy armor, defense fighting style, big nasty halberd and tons of smites/Shields plus the protection from the abjuration ward. Playing him as a crusader for Mystra with an “oath” to learn magic in order to bring justice to those who misuse it. Most of my favorite characters have been off the wall multiclasses, my drunken monk/ celestial warlock being the other recent example, kind of a Daoist immortal flavor
I was actually thinking of making a multiclass of a druid with a few levels in necromancer. My character is a halfling druid of the spore who's obsessed with poisons and the darker side of nature, and in a campaign I'm in at the moment he's been collecting viles of blood from slain creatures. I think it would be really cool to have basically a druid that's all rotted almost undead commanding undead creatures to do their bidding.
I was playing an elderich Knight. Rationing spells was getting annoying so I was looking at getting the ritual casting feat. Then I realized the ability to use a spellcasting focus was something I wanted as a sword and board fighter; who didn't have a third hand to grab spell components (just strap that crystal to the back of your hand or have it be part of your sword). So I took a level of wizard. As a smart fighter, these would be skills / abilities that I would seek to learn.
I had a witch hunter style character in 4e that was a LG Paladin/Infernal Warlock. He had inherited the Warlock abilities due to 7 generations of infernal warlocks in his family, but rejected his family's atrocities, and devoted himself to fighting evil.
First I will say, love, the video cause I like when you guys do the questions that you answer. I think it really helps newer players understand somethings cause I have taught many people how to play RPGs and they usually get lost in what they want to do and the how to do it effectively. I agree that being able to have the story guide the players as they grow is the best way to go. It makes the character feel more special to the player. I also agree you don't need to have that be needed cause sometimes it is hard to figure that in. The thing I see that is a problem is taking 2 levels fighter to get " action surge", but not wanting to be a fighter. Or taking 1 level of "rogue" at first just for skills and then not ever caring to level in it further. What I mean is taking 7 different classes to get an ability here or there seems wrong to what D&D is. I am not against min-maxing. But I can see a reason to not let people multiclass too far. There should be a vision in mind for multiclassing. Like you want to be a ninja and there are no rules for it in D&D 5th ed so you decide that a monk and rogue mix makes the most sense. For that, I don't think you need to roleplay it in the game to make that change. I think that is the purpose you had in mind from the door and you had to wait for a few levels to make it a reality. When Ted mentioned the Warlock Paladin I understood the desire to make it and he did it right by thinking it out and making it fit the character, but I don't think I would allow it if it was completely contradictory. It would be like a Paladin Theif who was lawful good and stole from everyone. That makes no sense and I would never let someone play it that way. But if the character had a split personality and was a paladin at times and a thief at other times that would be a great character.
In our game, my Changeling Tarocchi (Homebrew class) ended up putting 3 levels into paladin and going Oath of Vengeance for story reasons. So his final level spread is going to be 17 Tarocchi for the lvl 9 spells, and 3 paladin. Although after he fulfills his oath of vengeance, our DM has agreed to let me change the oath.
My favorite multiclass? He started as a level one vHuman Arcane Cleric with Ritual Caster:Wizard and then entirely through roleplay and shenanigans ended up with levels in Tranquility Monk via the medium of getting his butt handed to him in several bar fights a party member started and then for petty reasons spent the campaign going to a local monastery in his downtime to train his fighting ability, subsequently finding inner peace along the way. He ended the campaign as an Arcane Cleric 17 / Tranquility Monk 13 and no, that's not a mistake, we just... it was one of those campaigns you know, we just kept going until it petered out naturally.
In short, while yes multiclassing is often used by power gamers to maximize characters, multiclassing can be a vital component of making a particular type of character personality wise. I’ve even done 3 way multiclassing to make a character that hit a theme to the character’s detriment of power (essentially missing out on ASI’s or ovelapping powers like IPS resistance or extra attack) but in the end I made a character who’s classes reflected their mental state and who they were rather than just for power.
My most recent character is built with lvl 1 fighter, but he only has 8 strength. Because he was so terrible at it he bonded with a magic weapon and became a hexblade warlock.
Here's a great quote from Joe Liker on enworld. "I think the reasons some people feel a disconnect about multiclassing is because they think of gaining levels as a discrete process rather than a gradual blossoming of power. I see the leveling-up process as a continuous path, not a series of steps, and that path ultimately leads to the fully realized character concept that presents itself at level 20. That final realization doesn't necessarily fit into the cubbyhole of one of the classes in the book, but that doesn't make it a "mess." It just means that character had a broad range of life experiences and interests. It's not so strange to me to think that a character with some inherent magical ability (sorcerer) might choose to augment that by forming a pact with an arcane patron (warlock), and eventually develop a level of devotion to that patron that resembles religious zeal (paladin)."
I definitely sympathize with the mechanical side: I’m playing a dexterity fighter and I wanted to shield bash people. The best way I found to do it actually was multiclassing into Monk at level 2 to get the bonus action “unarmed strike” I reflavor as a bash. I don’t even acknowledge that she’s a monk, she’s a fighter just a particularly nimble one.
Recently had a game where everyone started at level 5, I went Rogue Swashbuckler 3 / Warlock Hexblade 2. Sneak attack + booming blade was crazy strong in the first fight
I’ve tried something similar with an arcane trickster with a familiar and then hexblade. Being able to burn my trickster spell slots for smites + sneak attack after my familiar granted me the help action made for some great short novas. But it is a nova build. Once those slots were burned I became the eldritch blaster who’s familiar flew around granted the barbarian and fighter advantage. Changes up a bit when my weapon became a ceremonial dagger of my patron that I could throw and get the sneak attack like a hand crossbow would.
I have multiclassed two times in a campaign. The first is a fighter/barbarian and the issue was being stuck in the Underdark being chased by drow had created a rage that now propelled me in battle. The second was a monk/wizard who was a monk who had a high int stat and studied books with focus on arcana.
I'm currently playing a half-elf who's hexblade/eldritch knight. But both reflavored to be based around an enchanted spear from the feywild. His Patron is the seelie court. He's heavily based in Akeles and cu'chulain.
Our current party has 2 characters that multiclass, a paladin warlock and an artificer wizard. The paladin warlock had a good story reason for doing so, and honestly only lets her not be useless at a range. But the artificer wizard is so powerful. He went with bladesong as his archetype, where he focused on doing one thing really well: moving very quickly. Its my opinion that multiclassing is really good when you try to maximize one aspect of the game. I think in an older video Ted mentioned a ranger he made with the purpose of having the best passive perception, and the DM had trouble putting traps up because he would always see them. In theory its cool to take one seemingly unimportant aspect and maxing it out, but the reprocussions are usually beyond what was expected.
Yea creating the one trick pony is where multiclassing can shine. In the case of the artificer it's kind of bad example because it's still play test. Matter of fact I just saw today they are planning on doing another pass in UA. Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy so the wizard-artificer is actually suboptimal. He would have a higher movement speed if he put those levels in monk. But i know what you mean.
@@MrRourk the paladin-worlock had to make a deal with the summer queen (fey pact) to get her warlock levels. The justification for the wizard-artificer was that he was largely self taught, but got training in wizard from various other wizards. It was our DMs first time running a campaign, so i think she knows now but he was kind of a problem for a while. But aside from his melee damage he has always been behind in terms of spell levels
Let's take things in priority: NICE shirt, Ted! Post a link on where to get it if possible, please! I don't like multiclassing JUST for the mechanics, I like there to be a thematic reason or RP reason as well. That being said, some combos are much stronger than others but that can be said for race/class combos too so I see no problem with it. I prefer the character stick with 2 classes but I've allowed a third class for a 1-level dip if it made sense.
The main drawback to level dipping as a caster is slower spell level progression. I know they comment on this, but its a HUGE deal, because no matter what abilities classes get, caster classes are always progressing to higher spell levels which surpass most class abilities on their own.
Multiclassing can be great for character reasons. I have an idea for a Yuan-Ti abomination character. He was a human who was abducted from the city by a transmutation wizard (or he volunteered to work for him because he needed the money) would be a level one rogue then the rest would be monk. He started as a thief, was half turned into a snake, and realized the only place in society that would accept him would be a monastery
my first ever multiclassed c started out as a wizard, and befriended and hung out primarily with the ranger in the party. And ended up learning about being a ranger from him.eventually we rped it out to the point where he was a wizard/ranger and the ranger became a ranger/wizard. both our c's were interested in the otherr's perspectives and what they brought to the party
I run a scourge aasimar NG oath of vengeance lockadin (9 Paladin / 7 Celestial Tomelock). The Warlock Celestial from Xanathar's Guide to Everything fits perfectly with any healer or cleric / paladin build for multiclassing. My toon has 3 healing pools: - Healing Hands (Aasimar, 16p) - Lay on Hands (Paladin, 45p) - Healing Light (Celestial Warlock, 8d6) + heal spells The character is the main tank of the party using War Caster (symbol on shield as explained in this video), casting Haste & smiting away with the paladin abilities & buffing the saves of everyone neaby with Aura of Protection, removing curses and doing lesser restorations and healing when needed. Plus he can throw in in the occasional Mirror Image, Fly, Dimension Door, Tongues, Charm Monster & Hold Monster (starting next level) using both long rest Dispels from the Paladin list and short rest Dispels & Counterspells from the Warlock list if needed; and a nice set of cantrips and ritual spells for versatility. Eldritch invocations add good flavor and some more versatility with Eldritch Sight, Eyes of the Rune Keeper, Book of Ancient Secrets and Trickter's Escape. A pure warlock or arcane caster would've been more powerful, but it's a nice blend :) You just have to micromanage the Warlock spell slots. Not overpowered in any way, but works really well as a tank/healer with versatile arcane casting abilities. A little bit of everything. Having lots of fun with it :D
My DM allowed me to start a level 3 character as a Bard/Warlock cuz it made sense for RP. My character slowly gained musical talent and glamour by dealing with the devil essentially.
Currently playing a goliath barbarian/divine soul sorcerer. I do this because he is a faith driven character looking out for people and to atone and this is how he views being a paladin. Mechanically he is a challenge to play but from a roleplaying perspective it is deep and exciting to balance his casting verses his rage.
Campaign length is one thing I find some people (to include myself a time or two) gloss over, which is a great reason to multiclass. If you're never going to hit your Capstone by adventure's end, or there's an interaction that let's you bypass that, then you're almost incentivized to do so. An example: A Life Domain Cleric of 9th level may have a fairly low Strength score if the PC envisioned his character to be a "Preacher" type of character; a-lover-not-a-fighter type, if you will. Hence, in this PC's case, a good Charisma score might be more sensible, especially if he's the Preacher type. Now, by this time (9th character level), he's got access to 5th level spells (Raise Dead and Mass Cure Wounds automatically), which are great, but because of his Strength score, he has to shy away from melee combat. Additionally, the Life Domain Cleric only has access to Saving Throw based attack cantrips, which at higher levels, tend to do nothing. So what does the PC do? A Warlock dip could make sense, depending on if the PC goes Celestial Pact or Hexblade. If the PC goes Celestial Pact, then the PC at Warlock 3 could go Pact of the Chain and take Gift-of-the-Everliving-Ones immediately, which would sidestep the Life Domain's Level 17 Capstone. If going Hexblade, the PC's melee capacity does increase, notably due to access to the Shield spell, as well as all of the Pact of the Blade features that are front-loaded between levels 1 and 3. Obviously, neither option takes into account Eldritch Blast, which is a reason by itself to dip into it. On the flip side, both options however would come at a significant cost, namely the loss of an ASI, some spell slots, and the loss of a guaranteed Divine Intervention @ 20th level (1x/week, due to the "Holy Restraining Order" imposed). All in all, kudos to Ted for mentioning that cost-benefit analysis point. I'm curious to hear from Nerdarchy regarding this. Aside from a thematic/storytelling point, it seems like the only major reason to justify an MC dip would be because the adventure itself isn't slated for Level 20, or isn't intended to be an epic level campaign. As a final thought, it would be interesting to see if 5E implements rules/options for Epic Level Campaigns (for Level 20+ characters).
My Character is multiclassing in two homebrew classes, one of them being a prestige class: Artificer Gunsmith 15 / Rune Scribe(Prestige) 5. It lends well to the setting and patches an otherwise lackluster spellcasting ability for the Artificer in the form of Master Runes.
So I'm currently in a Pathfinder campaign, playing a half-orc oracle, aiming to take 2 levels in Oracle and then being a straight Barbarian. The levels add flavour by giving the rage a definitive source, my character gets a flaw [oracles come with a drawback that gives bonuses] and a little utility in day to day events with cantrips. The choice also gave our party some healing (our first level composition at creation had no healing) Its going to slow my "I hit it" levels, but I feel that my character is more fleshed out for it (also being able to use low level buffs will probably help through the early levels. --- Onto general contributions I feel that some classes lend themselves to multiclass and fall in to 2 sets: pick ups and set ups: Pickups - bolt to a class you already have to hit a niche Warlock: you make a deal you get some power, Let's go!! Ranger: You have studied your prey, and can add a smatter of combat/ casting to your build at later levels Barbarian: here comes the beserk button. Set-ups - they say who your character is/ where they're from: Sorceror: Its in your blood (that's racist) Bard: recognised performer/ studied in a college Rogue: grew up on the streets I am sure there are more in each and some that don't fit in either. I believe that multiclassing should always say something OR help you mechanically express your character.
Anyone remember the Fighter/magic-user/thief class from 1st edition? The slowest character when it came to leveling up. Boxed edition had multi-class also but you had to stop advancing in your last class. So it wasn't unusual to see a 9 th level fighter/3rd level magic user, as the character was now putting experience into the second class.
Warlock Paladin is great. I often have two that I play, but I keep it story based my deity is also my Pact Master. So i either do conquest fiend under Asmodeus or ancients archfey under Auril.
Some multiclassing just goes together so well mechanically. Any martial class would love to be part fighter for that action surge for example. And if they stick with it long enough, they'll get enough extra ability score bonuses to off set the ones they lost from multiclassing, and you can get extra attack(2) if you go 11 levels in. So then the question becomes, what non full caster classes have stuff in the first 9 levels that make you go "yeah, that's 'enough' now" without making you go "oh man, I really missed the best thing ever by not sticking to this" Rogues and Barbarians come to mind. Both of those have stuff that aren't gonna make me cry to hard to lose by splitting off. And it gives the fighter- Rogue: 5ds sneak attack, 2 different instances of expertise, evasion, and a few subclass things that vary depending on the subclass. and a few other things. Barbarian: Rage and its benefits, reckless attacks, higher average HP, brutal critical (goes especially well with champion), depending on his stats and what kind of armor he wears they now potentially have higher AC by not wearing armor than wearing it. And subclass stuff. and a few other things Monk: Flurry of blows, like the barbarian you potentially have higher AC, evasion, slow fall, stunning strike, and subclass stuff. Honestly all of them except paladin because I just dislike losing improved divine smite, so thats one where I would go 11+ levels into paladin and then just dip into fighter for the action surge
my straightman/sourpuss rogue is in a party full of murder hobos to the n'th degree so i'm picking up bard levels as he starts to enjoy life a little (still gonna go college of whispers, no brainer)
Ranger/Fighter, Ranger/Cleric, Race dwarf, and Ali CG/LG. When doing the fighter it was a two weapon melee warrior that had some healing and buffs to help out. When going with a Cleric it was a war priest meant for dealing damage and healing the party. This was for DDO, Dungeons and Dragons Online. After a few patchs. I dropped the cleric and ranger. Than took up Favored Soul and fighter for a tank meant for taking hits, dealing damage, and healing the party. It was great because I was able to be on the front line all the time. Doing 3 roles at once.
I think multiclassing gives so many opportunities to roleplay that it is crazy fun. Our group started recently new campaign from 5th level because of TPK. Many of our players wanted to play monks and religious/monastery themed game. I was quite into that concept too but wanted to play bard first time so I asked from my DM that is it possible to play cupid or something like that. A litle angel like creature that loves to make songs and stories about humanoids, help them with their problems and unite loved ones for each other. After little bit of research we figured out with my DM that I could play as asimar paladin/bard. Now I can help all these humble humanoids with their journey to divinity while sensing all the evil on their path and making songs of their conquests. Probably most fun I've ever had when roleplaying.
I sometimes start from the mechanical end and sometimes with the backstory for why I want to multiclass a character, but always make a point to have thought about both in the end. :) Its easy enough to spin some fluff around nearly any combination of classes. In fact I usually find it more difficult to come up with the best way to represent a character theme (that isn’t captured very well by any single class), than the other way around.
Magic items also can influence how good a MC character can be. My current Haft-orc cleric of knowledge with a dip into wizard (For roleplay in the beggening but more cantrip , great utility spells, familiar and other great ritual spells without any cost on my spell slots ). I had a low Int but got an headband of brilliance... the wizard in the group wasn't so interrelated into it... but for me that meant a bump of 5 in my Int. Add that to expertise in arcana: wow!
With fighter and rogue, I really like that you can benefit so much from multiclassing into them, and that the prerequisite bar is so low. What does the average adventuring party spend most of their time doing in game? Fighting. What do they spend most of their time doing when not fighting? Looting, breaking rules, and getting into trouble. There you go. Fighter-2 rogue-1 primary class-17. It's always good.
Anyone can be a power gamer (or not), I have been acused of power gaming by a person in my group for taking feats instead of ASI's, I play a Fighter Battle-Master they play an Evocation Wizard (we are level 9) I have a +1 crossbow, they have a staff of power (they are the only one in the party who can use it) . . . but because I picked feats to complete a character concept (sharpshooter, crossbow expert, resilient - dexterity) and kill the piss out of most of the things I attack I am a "power gamer" . . . Some people are problematic power gamers and some people just don't like it when you're better than them making a strong PC and power gaming aren't the same, I like giving characters flaws and weaknesses and when the time arises playing up those flaws
Initially my character was going to be a Rogue/Fighter, with the Swashbuckler and Battlemaster mechanics to make a crazy duelist who slices and dices with his swords and has lots of fun (for me) options in combat. For a feat (V Human) I snagged Magic Initiate and grabbed Mage Armor and Prestidigitation, mainly. But he's also a Charlatan, and that's more of what the party was using - his ability to be social and talk to NPCs and butter them up for favors and so on. And it made sense, over time, I was leaning much more on his social skills than his sneaking or fighting ability. So I swapped to Warlock Fighter, to get the Warlock's access to some of the interesting stuff like Disguise Self and the fun social spells, while still keeping Rogue-like levels of damage. I also swapped Magic Initiate for Prodigy, as I now had Mage Armor at will, but had lost my Thieves Tools proficiency, and my Expertise on Persuasion. Then I started looking at Swords Bard, and realized that I could really built the character exactly as I wanted, by swapping to Bard Warlock. And so that has become the final, locked-in version of the build. And it's great! I have all the cool social spells like Friends, Vicious Mockery, Charm Persion, Enthrall, Suggestion etc. and then still have the cool sword flourishes and Hexblade + Blade Pact abilities to help out in combat. He is proficient in Forgery, Disguise, and Thieves Tools, plus he has 3 instances of Expertise and is proficient in 7 different skills.
As a DM i limit to MC to a max of 2 classes (IE. Warlock/Sorcerer, Fighter/Barb, Paladin/Bard, etc) nothing insane like a 'Wizard bard fighter rogue'. I also try to have it explained but not in-depth. Except for warlock, they need a damn good reason.
Do it your way ig but, idk why everyone limits their players i let them multiclass however they want, roll stats, everyone starts with a magic item of decent power, and they all start with a feat and every ASI they all get a feat (at the normal levels)
@@cold_Lightning9well yeah thats the obvious answer, and i said do it your own way and i can throw it back, aside from the things i said that arent in the rules, limiting multiclassing, no feats or other optional rules all it does is limit player creativity. So what if the players can nova a dragon in 1-2 rounds, you just make it 2-3 dragons and then they get a cool story to tell of how they overcame 3 dragons or maybe they dont win but they went down fighting 3 dragons of course they would lose its 3 dragons but, they died like heroes
I only got to play him for a session or two, but a Barbarian 1 Druid 2 taking circle of the Moon. Rage and unarmored defense as a dire wolf was pretty fun to do.
@@Quandry1 That's what I thought as well, after reading more into the build recently. At the higher levels you get so many less forms to take that it's almost worth it to take more levels in other classes. Would taking levels in fighter then going into battlemaster for maneuvers make it any better, or no that would be even less damage. Okay folks, wrap it up this build is for one shots at low level 😂
@@TheBeardedHydra I've had players try it. And I've broken it down in other video's. It also has an issue some other multi-builds don't face in that it's two classes with strong capstone abilities but I don't bring that up unless people start talking about higher level stuff. I'd argue that it doesn't benefit from further diluting by other classes because that just weakens the building strengths of the two classes it's built off of even further.
I love multiclassing as a way to demonstrate experiences. Had a major event that influenced your character? Take a level in a class that makes sense for that experience. It will probably throw off the build, but that's just the nature of adventure. It leads to strange places.
More specifically on the topic of multi-classing, I myself prefer that it makes sense to the character. I like to use it as a story-driven element. For example: the most recent campaign I participated in was the Storm King's Thunder adventure book, and I was a Fighter class. After pursuing, encountering, and battling giants many times over early in the module, I decided that my familiarity with them forced him to multi-class into a Ranger with Giant as the favored enemy, going so far as to take 3 levels to become a Hunter.
One piece of advice I tend to adhere to is that as long as it's not a hindrance to the enjoyment of the group, then whatever IT is, the DM should allow it. D&D is a game about fun and creativity, and if you're unreasonably nerfing those for the sake of stubbornness or control, then it's not the type of game anyone really wants to play. If it's fun for everyone, do it! It applies to a wide range of topics in the D&D world, and I believe it's always the best choice.
You mentioned druids and metal armor. I gave my druid the heavily armored feat and then gave her a special set of armor called iron bark armor. It's organic splint armor, vaguely reminiscent of samurai armor. Your thoughts?
There are always options for druids to wear heavy armor. there are many types of magical creature skins that can made into armour & have the same stats. They're "not metal". 😎
I multiclass to do a build concept /idea/ story or to fix a flaw in the class/subclass of the primary class. And if a DM didn't allow it I wouldn't play with that DM. I find the statement "don't allow it at your table" line. As I primarily DM I know its not my table and my job (role) is to make what the player wants work. If a player wants to be a Bard/Sorcerer Minotaur, then I look for ways to make that happen, even if that means modifying the campaign setting. Multiclassing is designed for this very purpose. Allowing multiclassing over home brewing a new class is always safer. Wizards already did the balancing leg work, that's why I pay for the books. But the idea that a DM is in charge, has always bothered me I am merely the facilitator.
![POLYCAT - ข้อความรูปยิ้ม [Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/lBhIgPGCgbI/mqdefault.jpg)
Aside from feats and archetypes, It doesn't hurt to just ask the DM to tweak a class. It takes time for some multi-classing synergies to work because you get detoured by mechanical prerequisites. If you want a whip using rogue, you'll get it faster by asking "Can I switch one of these starting weapon proficiencies with a whip, instead of starting as a fighter?" Providing you're a good sport about what you're trying to do, a DM will probably allow it.
Great suggestion.
Nerdarchist Dave
I agree completely. Played a game where my teifling dragon sorcerer was the son of a noble family. To hide his demonic visage, they conscripted a wizard to create a ring that made him look human. GM was like "Doesn't break the game, sure." While we were at it, since he was nobility, he was proficient fighting with a rapier.
I completely agree. One ability I love is Shadow Step from Way of Shadow monk, which would be a super fun ability to have on a variety of classes, but it's at level 6, so you can't really dip for it. Shadar Kai sort of have this ability, but it's not quite the same as the leaping from shadow to shadow ability that monks have. Could implement this to maybe be an ability of a magical item, probably one that requires attunement since it could be a potent ability when you don't have to dip 6 levels into monk to gain it. Or heck, swap out a class ability with shadow step if your GM is cool with it.
@@gameraven13 you could just create a shadow step feat.
Most minor stuff like that can be fixed by backgrounds, and a lot of it is even covered in the PH backgrounds (even specifically whips, which you can get from taking the Entertainer Background variant Gladiator, which allows for a character to learn tridents, nets, or whips)
As someone who is positioned, and to quite the degree, on the storytelling over mechanics end of the spectrum, I've frequently multiclassed to better represent the capabilities of a character who isn't properly covered by any one mechanical class.
It's a toolbox, what matters is what you use it for, not whether or not you use it at all..
This^^^^^
how can one need a special mechanic to roleplay anything that is not covered in fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard i will never understand. i just dont see how anything else is needed. although paladins are cool.
@@Arnsteel634 You've GOT to be joking, right? NATURE MAGES, everything from Witches to Shamans to Druids, is the easiest low-hanging fruit which just instantly kills that comment, not to even TRY to get into the more complex and deep character archetypes.
Modify/create a class... For every addition of a benefit, take something else away.
Druid started as a modified cleric with some added spells, but some other spells that they could never get.
The split in 5e between Warlock and Wizard is essentially such a split of the original Mage class. (a carry-over of the specialist Mage subclasses from Unearthed Arcana 2nd Edition rules expansion)
Make a lightning-spells-only Thunderwarrior (Mage-fighter) class if you want. Sorry, you get the D8 hit die, not the D10 of a fighter and can't use metal armor. (wearing metal you take full damage of your own spells, no save and you cant fix it no matter what you do.) Shocking hands delivered while doing a strike with a longsword... Pretty good power at low level.
@@fhuber7507 This still doesn't make Jennings' comment any less dramatically wrong, since you're, you know, *not using a lot of the cleric class*.
Go check out a video from Puffin Forest about a character named Abserd. Spelled like that.
Yea we've seen it. Ben is great.
-Nerdarchist Dave
I love Abserd.
Oh, hello there! Nice to be making acquaintance with you! I am Abserd!
Abserd for president.
Haha ya
For my money it depends on what I'm wanting to do with a character. But if I'm wanting to power game, I'm going with pure Cleric. Level 10 gets me Divine Intervention which can act like Wish once per day.
Capstone abilities (level 20 abilities) are either amazing or trash. For example:
Barbarian: You become stronger and more resilient than any other adventurer in existence. Amazing!
Bard: When you roll initiative and have no uses of Bardic Inspiration left, you regain one use. Trash!
Cleric: Once a week, you can have the help of a literal god. Amazing!
Ranger: Once on each of your turns, you can add your Wisdom modifier to the attack roll or the damage roll of an attack you make against one of your favored enemies. You can choose to use this feature before or after the roll, but before any effects of the roll are applied. Trash!
Druid: You have unlimited uses of wild shape, and you can cast most spells in your wild shape form. Amazing!
Which is a g huge problem to me. I wonder why they allowed these vast differences in late game power
In the game with my group, our Fighter is multiclassing into Warlock. Him and our DM took a whole week back-and-forthing how it would work, and I think they did a great job including it in our game's story.
As an avowed power gamer I definitely multi class, however I almost always do it for thematic reasons and try to milk some roleplay out of the comedy that ensues
I'm fine with multiclassing, but I prefer players stick to just 2 classes.
I would argue that the third class in many cases does only make a charakter weaker (fewer ASI etc.)
@@ToabyToastbrot It's also straight up powergaming at that point. For me, you need a legitimate, story reason to multiclass in the first place. A Fighter doesn't magically become a full on Wizard or vice versa overnight. I would strictly keep it to two classes as well. Simply telling me what you intend to do with your character from the get go is more than enough to get me on board, and I'll set up the world to make it happen.
If those prerequisites are meant, feel free to multiclass whatever you want. Some classes I'm pretty lenient on because it makes sense immediately. Barbarian/Fighter blends really easily so I'll allow it off the bat. Ranger and Rogue is another one that's pretty easy to work with. Gloomstalker Ranger with Rogue is a strong combo and my personal favorite. Been also thinking about doing a Samurai/Zealot mix because I'd love to play a Barbarian with more extra attacks and Wisdom proficiency. If you can work a cool idea like that into your backstory, then go for it.
I agree and the current character I'm playing is the only time I've done 3 otherwise I stick to one or 2
@@cold_Lightning9 If taking a third class makes a character weaker, by what logic is it power gaming? Certain three-way splits are traditions from the older editions of D&D, and the origin of the Bard class actually stems from one such three-way (hence why it has its hands in so many pies). And in any case, I can think of numerous legitimate story reasons to multiclass 3 ways. Quick example, you want a vampire hunter so you start ranger for the tracking, dip rogue for the stealth and subterfuge needed to even find the things, and then make a pact with some dark, mysterious entity who also hates vampires so that you have magic to counteract that of the vampires. That is one, cohesive character concept that uses abilities from 3 different classes. It sacrifices a lot of power for everything that it gains, but it holds together story-wise. Or you've also got those who actually change class partway through the game due to some story reason; will you forbid them from choosing a second class now that they've switched, or will you make them rebuild their entire character under the new class and then allow them to multi-class?
I'll say this: playing one class is much simpler and it's generally stronger. Playing two gets more complicated, sacrifices some power for versatility, and defines a character as something outside the norm. Playing three classes adds even more complexity, sacrifices a lot more power, and probably doesn't add nearly as much as the first split. But there are still reasons to do it and players who can pull it off. I agree with the original post, two classes is *generally preferable* to three. But don't set a hard and fast rule; make individual rulings when they arise.
@@Nurk0m0rath There are actually some really, strong optimal builds that utilizes the three way split, so while it can definitely make you overall weaker, it could certainly make you very strong as well. That Zealot/Samurai combo I mentioned before? Add one, maybe two levels of Warlock for that Hexblade ability. Extremely potent combo, especially on a single target where they can go all out on it.
It does take careful planning to make it work, but you get my point. I've seen enough builds on the internet, and at the table, to show that multiclassing can certainly elevate a character, mechanically speaking. My issue really stems from the players over complicating their character, giving them an unnecessary amount of mechanics to keep track of, thus bogging down the game. Not to mention, upsetting the balance of combat with their munchin builds. I'm only speaking of personal experience of course, but it seems more troublesome and gamey to me.
As for the point about hard line ruling, I fully disagree with that. Every DM has the absolute right to make a hardline rules on how the table is run, so long as it's fair and the party is aware and in agreement. This is what's normally done during a Session 0. Sure, ruling during the campaign is fine as well, just did it this past Friday on the topic of flanking in combat, but expectations can be set from the initial brief of the campaign. If it's not within your liking, then simply not play at that table. Or, test out the waters to see how well the ruling works in play, then deliver feedback and work through it with the DM. Bad, tyrannical DMs are a thing I hate, but entitled players who refuse to play along are just as bad.
Would I disallowed a player for taking a specific path ingame, or make them forgo their development for the sake multiclassing? Please don't assume I'm going out of my way to completely ruin a person's fun simply because I'm iffy on the idea of selecting a third class. If that's what you were implying, then it's wrong. I go out of my way to elevate the players and their characters, and none of that includes splitting into three classes. They get that satisfaction from the worldbuilding and roleplay, but then again my group is different from others I suppose. That said, you have brought up valid cases where it would make logical, RP sense to have 3 classes. You more or less agree with my point about it making sense in the context of the character and their experience. Like I said, a Fighter doesn't become a Wizard overnight and vice versa, etc. If a player is interested in taking their character in a direction, I'm all for it , providing that it doesn't step on other players fun or disrupt the overall experience.
I will say this; thank you though for not blindly insulting me due to my different opinion. Too many people resort to doing that at the whim in this community unfortunately, which discourages me from providing my opinion during these conversations. While I still am a little against the idea itself, I can concede on allowing a player to do it if they make a valid case like you said. At the end of the day, it's all about having fun, and I certainly want that to happen myself.
I was playing in a game where one of the characters was a 10th level fighter, and we actually saw him make his pact with a fiend when he took his first level of Warlock.
I have a rule when I DM, which is I want a justification for a multi-class. There needs to be a story/rp reason, not just "that ability is cool". I had reservations against some mixes, but having players give a reason has helped me understand the classes better and reduce my reservations.
My favorite multi-class was actually 2e. Elf Fighter/Wizard/Thief. Good times
@NuzlockeGriff When I run the game, I want the player to create the reason. If latent abilities (ie sorcerers), then they should have a questionable ancestor or a dream or something to explain why. I don't limit them, I make them put story and RP behind the mechanics of the game. Immersion is improved, power gaming is reduced, stories are born, and everyone gets a better understanding of the mechanics by having to look them up when multi-classing.
A person born in an isolated village who learned the songs and stories of their people but were also taught the basics of combat and were known to have a temper.
The Bardbarian, and their song of rage!
@@zeterzero4356 For that, I would say if that is a goal starting at lvl 1, to be a bard/barbarian, then I would suggest they start roleplaying that early. Bard first, play strong willed and angry when insulted or hit in battle (maybe even lash out with an attack vice a spell). If they told me, I could run with it to not hurt the party when they did so in combat. For Lvl 1.
Barbarian first, well who doesn't enjoy battle hymns called out and insults laid upon their enemies? This would probably be safer for the party. And, if the went College of...Swords..? (from Volo's) I would let them go right to it without training under another in that College, so long as they kept the instruments simple (drums, horn, signing, inspirational speech etc).
If they start out that way (ie starting beyond lvl 1), then that is a pretty good start of a back story.
It gives some options for how they got into adventuring; maybe his temper got the best of him and he wounded someone in the tribe or insulted the leaders, or maybe she grew frustrated with the rules and male dominated society and left, or maybe something more tragic.
@NuzlockeGriff I actually have more experience with older systems, so in addition to it being a policy I've believed in since 3.0 (2e didn't have multi-classing as we see it now) it has helped me understand the rules governing the background side of characters.
My biggest reservations come from those with solid ties to one thing, trying to go another way also. For example, why would a Paladin go Warlock? Yes, the abilities tie so nicely together, but why would a person closely bonded to their oath (and possibly faith if you carry it over from prior additions) suddenly "need" the power of some other being? Was their oath not driving them enough? What does that mean for the source of their power? How can they be sworn to (x) but also (x)??? In that case, I want a why, to help me understand, to force some story beyond "it's cool", to get the players thinking of the world and not just the mechanics, and to a fair degree to limit min/maxing.
(edited to reference 2e)
@@OriginalWarwood Sounds like a solid course. I wonder if you could get away with using a mace a shield as a drum for part of your performance.
“Did that inspire you” had me hitting that like button faster than a monk with mobile.
Don’t forget DMs who ban feats and multiclassing, we are giving up a lot in order to multiclass. It’s a fair trade to make the game more fun. And isn’t that the aim?
If it was really a sacrifice most people wouldn't want to do it. All too often they are giving up something which doesn't matter that much for powerful combat abilities which can throw off the whole balance of the game.
@@toshomni9478
Some of the most unbalancing things in the game require sticking to a single class. One fun example would be a divination wizard of at least 15th level. With the spells Plane Shift and Demiplane they can remove any threat that doesn't have its own means of planar travel from the game permanently, without fail, thanks to portent. Wizards to me are the standard when determining if a multiclass is unbalanced. If it can't complicate the game more than the wizard, a staple class in D&D, then it probably shouldn't be an issue.
And it definitely is a sacrifice. Just because someone thinks multiclassing is worth the sacrifice in order to play a concept they had in mind, it doesn't mean that there wasn't a sacrifice. This is especially true for any caster multiclass.
@@PhuckKnuckles I think the sacrifice falls off pretty hard though for charisma casters. It's pretty easy for a sorcerer to dip 2 levels of warlock and get the best cantrip in the game with invocations to augment it. The the only loss there is the ASI at level 19, which might not even be a big deal
@@jondubois5347 you also set yourself back two levels on your spell level, and because warlock is a separate spell slot calculation you also get set back on max spell slot level. Sure you'll catch up by level 20, but I've yet to play to level 20. You get something more consistent with EB, but you lose out on stronger spells which is a pretty fair trade. Quick casting EB is nice, but you'll eat up your sorcery points really fast early on, and there are usually better things you could have done with those points.
@@toshomni9478 How I know you're wrong is because even after they nerf spellcasters in PvP, purist spellcaster players still mop the floor in lvl 20 PvP battles.
The reason people multiclass typically is because they allow for versatility and give you some pretty awesome support based abilities at the cost of raw power. I play ninja (rogue/warlock/monk) because it gives me decent speed and debuffs so that I can jump into a group of enemies and mess them all up with debuffs before disappearing. That combo is useful for helping the party but in terms of solo it's pretty useless.
I only multi-class if I cant use a single class or archetype to fit a characters concept or theme. A couple example of some characters i have made are a Druid/Ranger that is a feral child that wildshapes to fight along side a sibling, an Asimaar Zealot Barbarian/Devotion Paladin for a concept of a Diablo angel, and a Ranger/Blood Hunter who's story is he defended the local town from monsters till he was seduced into helping a demon work her way up the chain. Once she got to the top she attacked and left him for dead so he then joined an order of blood hunters to get his revenge.
As long as you don'g forget to role play, it's fine. I dig it.
I’ve tried many times to create a wood elf character that plays to the fantasy stories of wood elves I grew up on and no single class fits what I envision.
When I play a wood elf I'm typically going the archer route so its usually either hunter ranger, arcane archer fighter or a mix of both. Some times I will also did a beastmaster ranger tho that was in older editions as i don't care for the 5e BM subclass.
kasakuie I find myself leaning rogue scout but I want that bigger hit die because I think of elves as physically stronger than their high elf cousins in their cities and towers. But when I look at fighter/rogue build I don’t really like it. Fighter/ranger could be fun but I’m not a fan of the ranger class in D&D.
I had an idea for a multiclass Bard with 3 levels in Warlock to get Pact of the Chain.
Their backstory was that the familiar they got from their patron writes their music for them, which the Bard then plays on stage for the audience.
I can't decide whether their patron should be a Fiend, or an Arch Fey.
I find multiclassing to be a really great tool for people to build the character they wanna play. Sure, most use it as a way to get frontloaded abilities right outta the gate. But others, at least to my personal experience, want to build a character that is specifically tailored to what they want to do. Got one of my players playing a fighter/ranger. Just for the multiple fighting styles and the fact that he wants to play as true to a viking as possible with the fact that they used multiple types of weapons and such, not just one style and were relatively good with it. He was actually thinking of taking a barb level or two just so he could rage and become a berserk to fit his theme. I warn all my players of the dangers of multiclassing at wrong times and the possible downside to losing higher spells or features, etc. But, players gonna play. As long as they have fun and don't overshadow the rest of the group in terms of wanting the spotlight and do everything better than everyone, I'm totally down for it. After all, this is also a team game! Great video, great discussion, keep up the great work Nerdarchs!
Are you saying I only went Barbarian 1/Moon Druid 2 for the almost 200 effective HP and multiattacks at level 3 from bears?
Because I'd certainly do it again...
I have no way of knowing if that's why you did it. :)
I do know the cure for it though. Death effects anything that results in you dying because you went zero hp doesn't drop you out of wildshape. Just drops the character dead. Things like disintegrate, power word kill, and finger of death are the wildshape counters.
Nerdarchist Dave
In 5e, Finger of Death just deals damage, with an effect IF the target dies.
Disintegrate and Power Word Kill, however, do stipulate dropping to zero hitpoints just like wildshape stipulates that you drop to 0 hitpoints before damage carries over.
Thanks for the warning!
@@benjaminking4286 yea you are correct. That's what I get for going by memory.
Nerdarchist Dave
What about a well rolled sleep? It may not kill something, but they will be vulnerable AF after. Zealot barbs worst nightmare?
@@junsonofjack3740 You can get past that with Fey Ancestry or Warforged, basically can't go to sleep if you...can't go to sleep. Death Effects then become your enemy again.
I actually made a Wild Sorcerer/Fey pact warlock with a back story that due to his powers manifesting I’m crazy ways and his overall control of that power was poor. He once blew up a part of a forest while trying to train to control his power, and it caught the attention of a powerful druid who arrived with his group to extinguish the fire and repair the forest.
The Druid then took my character through a pathway to the Feywild to explained my situation to one of the fey, my party doesn’t know who the patron is because my dm and I have been working on an Animal Lord of some kind. Either something like a king of Salamanders or Lord of Tigers.
Basically the patron after seeing how the power manifested, suggested that the best way to control the power would be to manifest it in a tool and use that to channel the power a different way. So he’s essentially been given a pact weapon to smite with by using his wild power. So far I’m having fun and having eldritch blast and casting find familiar while there to have a contracted small fey as a partner has made things pretty fun.
It is easy to see fewer options when you choose a class. I love the idea of multi-classing to promote your story, Even if it is only for the mechanics, it still drives your PCs story. I made a monk/entertainer recently. She is not a "monk" but an acrobat who learned how to protect herself on the road with different groups.
Also, I got into a discussion recently about multi-classing subclasses, because why not? That actually seems more reasonable to me.
Thanks for another thoughtful and thought provoking video!
Just started multiclassing into fighter after my Bard (level 4), created gunpowder. So my DM is allowing me to go forward as fighter to use Matt Mercer's gunslinger class. I've got to say, using story elements is so fun! Character's can change very often, so it's fun to see what makes them change, and how they continue after the change.
I have been playing a creation bard for almost two years. At level 10, she took two wizard spells from magical secrets and started to get a growing interest in wizard matters. Some levels later, we encountered a grimoire infinitus and my character simply couldn't resist the bling and the promise of spells. She took a level in wizard. She started investigating traditions, thinking the school traditions are boring. She met a chronurgist and a scribe. She decided to go for scribe because "oh my gosh I can awaken a book if I become a scribe?"
And thus, a character created with zero multiclassing intentions became a spell photocopier. Turns out, doing an hour's work in a minute and spending a second level spell slot for ingredients is quite something.
I like to listen to these videos while working on DnD characters or planning that one campaign I will never actually run.
I'm a Dragonborn Paladin and been thinking about going for that Draconic sorcerer multiclass. Fits really well thematically and seems like it would be more fun to play than just straight paladin.
I'm currently playing a shadow magic sorcerer and right before hitting lvl 6 and getting my shadow doggo i died but got revived by our cleric. Now I've came up with the idea that the shadow doggo followed me from the afterlife and I'm playing with the idea that maybe the hound is a servant to a higher power with which I made an unconscious pact. Thus I'm thinking of going sorc/undead warlock :D + the hound could be my way to get in contact with my patron... i love giving stuff a reasonable explanation and my DM is all for it :D
I created multiple broken multiclass combos in 4th. Paladin/warlock was one of those. Not as strong as a human Paladin multiclassing into invoker but still ridiculous. Warlock covers the Paladin's void in ranged attacks and damage and the Paladin gives the Warlock defenses when the warlock suffers in being the weakest DPS class. I found that the Psionic tank class was also good for Warlock.
My second most ridiculous character in 4th was a true multiclass Druid/Invoker. Turns out that you have the most powerful Dailies in the game at every option.
In Pathfinder I had an Aasimar whose Father was a Human Druid (The Lion King) and his mother was a Angel/Orc Aasimar who became an angel after dying and both her parents were Royalty.
He took beast-bonded barbarian at first level and then went into hunter until he qualified for Mammoth Rider. He had the Adopted (Orc) background option so he could use the Orc Rager teamwork feat. The Barbarian allows me to make the mount rage. The hunter lets me give it my teamwork feat. I got Imperial bloodline sorcerer feats, which let you increase the morale bonuses by 1 which is similar to a bard or Paladin ability. He gets ridiculous morale bonuses to strength, constitution, attack and damage and then has an ally's familiar 'Moment of Glory' him on a lance charge attack. Not to mention that the Mount is a Huge Lion (Tiger) getting stupid bonuses, as well.
So Comael, the Prince of Lions is a Human/Orc/Angel Barbarian/Ranger/Druid/Bard that kills everything in 1 hit, starting at about 9th level, while his Celestial Lion Brinrael, does whatever it feels like, including grappling dragons at, like 12th-13th level.
In my current game, I’m running an Arcane Trickster who has had an affectation for Magic’s for years, but just got his hands on a book.
As well, we have a warforged sorcerer in our party that my character was able to connect with as they both are well read and want to study the arcane.
I opted to pump lots of gold worth of supplies into a ritual to tap my character more directly into the weave.
Within an inch of his life, my character survives the ritual and learns he can more adeptly use magical abilities of the Wizard class.
A.K.A.: I feel like there needs to be some kind of trade off for it to make sense
I love multiclassing. I have a Cleric/Paladin/Wizard and a Fighter/Rogue/Wizard, both of which focus on magic as their background.
For the most part, I don't multiclass, but it was just a natural progression for those two. When I DM I let my players do as they will to have fun so long as they can play their character effectively and not take 6 minutes reading over their sheet every turn.
Currently playing a paladin who started path of protection as he wished to protect his home land. He was however transported to a godless world, and his God being Hiemdal the literal god of loyalty, he was tempted by the archedeamon Levitus for a way out. His way out being to destroy the apocalyptic event going on so he granted him the powers of a hexblade warlock and turning him into an oath breaker paladin. Sounds cool until you also realize most of the enemies I'm killing are undead and oath breaker auras also help them as the rules dont say companions only...
Dog! Decent way of working the multiclassing into the story.
Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy Fun when there is also a Cleric who is feeling the strain as well and he is working through not feeling his God while his abilities are weakened. And he stayed LG while I am now LE...
super smooth ideas
My multi class is 3-4 monster slayer ranger 16-17 battle master fighter. I did it mostly for flavor since I don’t feel rangers beyond the archetype really get much better. And now I am solely just going for the ultimate slayer.
Love multi classing personally. It's been around since ad&d. Yes you can power game or rp it you don't always have to use it as power gaming just ad a thematic element to your character. I personally have a favorite character of mine from 3ed who I want to make as a 5e. A death cleric who's a Merc back ground. He was the cleric for his Merc group and seeing all that death cause that's what you do as a merc led him to that so he did the healing but also knew how to fight and when people fell he did the blessing for the dead. But after reacher 6th level his god told him he had to learn of death and gain his own power to be a better servant so with that he multiclassed into necromancer to better understand the energies of it and also gain his own power through study and hard work. He took that to like 14th level. Now he can heal, keep friends from dying, bless the dead, creat undead, and keep his goal of balance between life, death, unlife, and rebirth. So he didn't go super crazy with the undead unless he later destroyed his own army of undead to keep a balance. Not to mention he loved silver pay that man in silver lol. But that character showed roleplay, being powerful in mele and magic, also staying withen a line of morals and flaws. Super long comment but what are your favorite multiclassed characters you've played and how did they get there? Rp, mechanical, just random?
And sometimes the mechanics of a single class just don't match what you Want out of that class! Sure, I could try and pick apart the closest class, cutting stuff down to add in what I want, and then begging the GM to agree with it, living under constant scrutiny to make sure that my cobbled together Warlocerer isn't overpowered...
Or I could simply multiclass a little, take a few levels from Warlock to pick up the abilities I want that Sorcerer won't get, and combine them into a whole that, while usually slightly lesser [easy example, lower level or delayed spellcasting] in some way, flows through to fit the concept I have better.
The only multiclasser in my current campaign is a Ranger/Storm Sorcerer.
When they were visiting a tribe of Storm Giants they had just saved from a group of dragons; when they were talking to their leader about the powers they possessed, the leader told them that some "tiny races" could handle the strength of the storm, if they had the right blood for it. This ended up with 3 of them becoming excited about the idea of finding out about their ancestors and partaking on a ritual atop a mountain that, after many shenanigans, ended with a lightning striking each of them (the party Wizard was super freaking glad he decided to not try it, I played it like a straight up lightning, two of the three even went down and started rolling death saves after they were hit, his character could have easily gone straight to death with that damage xD).
The barbarian and the cleric were wrecked like hell, and didn't get much out of it; the ranger found out she had storm blood. After this point I started to describe how she creates some small magic electricity effects, and a few days later, when they had gained enough xp to reach level 10, I told her "you now have the option to gain another level in ranger, or gain your first level in sorcerer".
All the others *can* do multiclasses, they just haven't yet; the only thing I require to allow a character multiclassing, is that it makes sense in the story; it makes sense that a woman who went through a sacred ritual to awaken her storm sorcery will begin to have sorcerer powers. It doesn't make sense that, after killing another troll with your fireballs, your wizard gains a level of fighter just because you really want that Action Surge. If you want something like that in my games, you better be ready to make your wizard join the fighters guild or the army and get through a lot of training, instead of just deciding that over night you suddenly learned how to cleave people in half with a great sword.
In the current campaign I'm playing, 2 of 5 players decided to multiclass. We started the campaign at a relatively high level (13), and both myself and one other player took a dip into the Hexblade class, largely I think in both cases for mechanical reasons. He is playing a Paladin, and I am a College of Swords Bard, and being able to use CHA as a melee attack ability is such a huge benefit to both classes that it is hard to ignore.
That said, I think in that putting this together in my backstory led to a very interesting and conflicted character. Her patron lives within a sword she acquired, and at the table I have been using it as sort of a Two Face mechanic where I roll Persuasion vs Deception on myself to see whether my (good-aligned) character or my (evil-aligned) patron win the test of will. This has caused a couple fairly interesting moments at the table, and I have found the character extremely enjoyable. Conflict is always great at the table, and internal conflict just adds another level to it.
So, I guess it can sometimes be both. a "powergaming" decision mechanically led to a far more interesting and conflicted character than I would have come up with otherwise. So far, the results have been outstanding - to the point where my character took a sabbatical from the campaign and group to resurrect a bunch of guards that the party slaughtered in an overly-aggressive rampage. I played an NPC for a session and a half and turned him over to the DM afterwards to hopefully be part of the campaign later.
While you can definitely make some powerful munchkin builds with multiclassing. Most multiclassing builds I've seen have been by people who either want something very specific that they can't get from one class, or because they want to broaden their utility.
Like how I have occassionally 2-dipped Warlock as Sorcerer, or 3-dipped sorcerer as Warlock to achieve my idea of an an Arcane sniper. How often do the situations come up where i can actually utilize my 1200 foot range on a distant Eldritch Blast? Not often, but boy is it fun when it does.
Then there is the flipside of the coin. Where I generalized by going Armorer 6/Rogue 3 (Mastermind)/Bard 3(Lore) as a shifty craftsman/skill monkey. Was I particularly strong in combat? God no, but I had fun crafting/repairing the party's gear, winning card games, and playing on my lute. (As a note, do not do this type of build in an undersized party. It will not go well.
I play a lot of Destiny. Joining late into a dnd 5e game with some friends I started as a level 8 sun soul monk. Reflavoring the level 3 radiant sun bolt into radiant throwing knives, I got a real sense I was a Hunter Gunslinger throwing knives left and right. When the dm awarded me a revolver I quickly named the Last Word I began multiclassing into Devotion Palidan. At level three with a Sacred Weapon in the form of a revolver I've got a Golden Gun wielding Guardian in DnD. Favorite character ever.
I have a Dwarf named Kildrak Battleforge who started as lvl 1 Fighter because of his family background, but then suffered a military loss because of the natural magical abilities of the Dueargar. So he ended up taking the Sage background and started studying and practicing magic, (Fight fire with fire scenario). Because it's a power game build I wanted to test but also wanted to find a fun and interesting story to back it up.
If your play till level 20 multiclass characters are actually much weaker with a few rare exceptions that are usually 2 levels in either fighter, cleric, or warlock; with the other 18 in the main class.
Most powerful multiclass imo is Rogue2/Wizard 18 at lv 20 or even Arcane Trickster 3/ Wizard 17 to stay as an 18th level caster and even get Mage hand Legerdemain, though you'd lose spell mastery.
@@TuariD those don't stack well at all. You can't apply the sneak attack to spells so you get a couple extra skills and dash or hide as a bonus action. The only benefit I see is turning invisible and hiding in the same turn. The 2 in fighter instead casts a 9th and 8th level spell in the same round for example. Warlock 2 sorc 18 makes 8 attacks with eldritch blast every turn till basically the end of time. Or 1 in cleric with classes like rogue, bard or warlock makes them no longer squishy.
@@Dragonspassage I think you underestimate the power of a wizard with cunning action.
Every turn they can dash, disengage, or hide essentially for free. The dpr isn't as high as what you suggest but the utility os pretty great. You don't have to waste a spell using misty step to get away, dash gives you enough movement for great spacing, and if you pick up skulker there's a lot you can hide in as lightly obscured(even behind other people. Which means that if you use expertise on stealth you can hide from almost anything. Even things with truesight or blindsight don't really get a chance to see you if you find something to partially obscure yourself behind.
No sight, no targeting, no damage (unless they go scorched earth.)
If you go enchantment wizard and have 3 in rogue you can go thief or AT which allows you to hypnotise people and literally strip them naked.
It's some shenanigans.
My idea was starting out as sorcerer and taking two levels of Warlock for the eldrich blast, hex, agonizing blast, and repelling blast.
Then pick up metamagic quickened spell, and magic missile.
Basically you could cast hex and on your next turn cast eldrich blast as your action, and magic missile as a bonus action with quickened spell.
(3d4+3+3d6+2d8+6+2d6)average 37 DMG @ lev 5 likely one shot a creature on your first turn.
This would also push the creature back 20 feet assuming both blasts hit
Also you always get those two Warlock lev1 spell slots back after a short rest.
@@anonanonymous1988 hex is a bonus action so you can use elditch blast on the same turn.
Eldritch blast is 1d10 per ray.
Hex triggers off of attack rolls. Magic missile has no attack roll so it doesn't trigger hex.
At lv 5 you're looking at 2d10+6, and 2d6. Second turn would be 2d10+6, 2d6, 3d4+3.
It's not bad, but of you went full sorc you could just as well fireball and be guaranteed damage with the half on save vs none if you miss.
Way back in 2nd edition we had a cleric get abducted by Orcus for a few game sessions (he was busy irl) and we made a deal with Orcus to do a task for him to get the cleric back. He came back with a alignment change (no penalty), -1 con(for being tortured for weeks in the abyss) and he gained a bunch of demonic abilities(kinda warlockish). It was a huge trade off to explain his in-game absence.
that intro inspired me to pick up my guitar again cause if dave can play a flute..damned be Selune if i can't learn to play guitar (again) ^^ seriously though; great points on MC'ing guys, it never has been my thing unless it is for story-purposes ( guess it stems from seeing players purely doing it for mechanical benefits and giggle about it which I found to be very annoying) but you guys made a fair analysis of it :)
Thanks glad you enjoyed. My recorder skills are Legendary.
Nerdarchist Dave
Low on time, so can't explain right now, but infinite 3rd level spells isn't how the wizard's capstone works.
Probably just mixing up the 18th lvl ability with the 20th.
@@Mr1991bbk yup. Infinite shields not fireballs.
Nerdarchist Dave
Nerdarchy and since the 18th level ability also gets you a second level spell, I think it’s even stronger than the capstone.
@@Nerdarchy Infinite shields is fantastic for an abjurist. Charge the ward every round. Infinite illusion spells for an illusionist on the other hand... much more effective in its own right
2 free 3rd level spells cast once per long rest iirc.
I totally disagree, I can think of a few iconic characters/character concepts who are "muticlassed"
honestly, GMs who disallow it are the same kind of GMs who get pissed when you play your character "too well"
I've found most DM s I've met who don't allow multi classing are the same ones who only allow phb PC races, limited and lame
I know I'm Johnny-come-late here, but how can you play too well? I've never heard that one.
@@vernonhampton5863 my guess is you have a character who is designed to deal a bunch of single target damage and end up wiping out the big bad in 1 shot. Or a warlock with the mask of many faces and the actor feat who can basically become anyone (picture the T-1000 from terminator)
@@Sasqmo Hey now, don't dis on my boi (/girl) the half-elf. As an avid skill whore and lvoer of bards, half-elf is my favorite race XD
In the new 2E pathfinder playtest, I built a Level 7 Druid with the Monk archetype. I had a Full grown Panda Bear companion and worked off of him with Tiger Style martial arts. Probably the most fun I’ve ever had multiclassing any character.
Panda’s name was Po
I learned of an interesting idea for a multiclass build. Lightfoot Halfling Beastmaster Ranger, with Arcane Trickster Rogue, kind of like a "Pintsized Paratrooper" Character, taking advantage of the Pteranodon being a Medium sized flying creature that a lightfoot Halfling could hide behind, and the Arcane Trickster Rogue giving access to "Featherfall", and "Message". You could possibly do it as a Druid or other Summoner, instead of having a pet Pteranodon, you could summon one....but yeah, an interesting idea that I'm hoping to play with if my current character dies XD
I once played an Oath of the Ancients Paladin/Fiend pact Warlock who didn't realize they weren't a Druid; the Fiend had convinced them it was a nature god. Class is just a meta way to describe your character.
For my second character in a Dark Sun game I was playing recently I made a half giant barbarian focused on grappling. Multi-classed rogue for Athletics expertise and was planning on a few levels of fighter for some maneuvers and action surge. Unfortunately the campaign imploded before I got to do much grappling.
imploding campaigns the bane of players everywhere.
-Nerdarchist Dave
My first ever character in First Edition was an elf Fighter/Magic User. This was in 1979. The experience level numbers were specific to the character classes so not every class advanced at the same rate. Magic Users progressed much more slowly than Fighters. I would put half my experience points in each class and hope for a level once in a while. That was a totally fun character.
I’m currently building a rogue-bard... in the commander of a group of mercenaries, and some of the bardic spells mix REALLY well with the mastermind rogue. As well as bardic inspiration to aid my allies, and the lore bard’s cutting words to keep them relatively safe.
I’m re-skinning some of the spells and abilities so that they aren’t obviously magic or obviously bardic in nature, and I think it’ll play really really well. :D
Currently playing a multiclass that is 3 ranger and 3 fighter going into Horizon walker and arcane archer. Current plan is to go 13 ranger/ 7 fighter. I really love the synergy these two subclasses bring.
I've so far only multiclassed once, and I think it really works for character development above all else. I went into a game with the idea of making a human rogue with the healer feat, and the fast hands feature of thief in order to get a doctor type character. As I looked through the rogue levels past 3, and decided that none fit the doctor theme, so I looked at other classes to go into, and found Mercer's bloodhunter... The mutant subclass was so perfect. This general doctor with his conditions eventually bacame a mad scientist, chemically induced fighter type character with a little re-flavoring
Played a Saurian ZealotBarb4/BruteFighter11/VengeancePaladin5. Started 1 level in Barb, went 6 fighter, 3 more barb, then 5 paladin, then finished with the last 5 in fighter. The build started out with me wanting to play a Dinosaurman Barbarian/Fighter multiclass focusing more on Brute, and taking Zealot because I thought the Warrior of the Gods trait looked nice just in case I died and we didn't have the materials to bring me back. As the character took shape and the DM and I spoke about story we actually came up with the beginnings of a pretty cool character and I was later inspired to expand upon it from a Roleplay perspective with the Paladin class which synergized quite well with what I already had going.
For his backstory we said that that he and a select few others of his kind by magical means survived an apocalyptic event that wiped out all civilization (basically the asteroid that took out the dinosaur's equivalent to DnD) He's found in a magical stasis by the rest of the party while exploring the ancient ruins of his city and joins up with them while trying to survive as one of the last of his kind and find a place in the current world while still holding fast to the traditions and faith of his ancient long dead empire. As his story and the game progressed he found that his gods (giant celestial space dinosaurs :D ) still lingered in the stars or something (I forget) and he was eventually blessed by them empowering his strength (as a Barbarian path of the Zealot) then by the 3rd quarter of the campaign (around level 12 or 13) he discovers that Tiamat and her army of chromatic dragons that his people waged war against were responsible for the catastrophe that wiped out his civilization several millennia ago because his empire had magical artifacts capable of sealing her away. (Tiamat and the dragons ended up being tied into most of our party's storylines and was our big bad at the end of the campaign which was the first time we ever had anything so heavily draconic) With that revelation he swore his Oath of Vengeance against her and all chromatic dragons that he would avenge his fallen people and his gods that had been forgotten by the world.
All in all, I rolled some pretty good stats, which allowed me to take some useful feats while only needing to take one ASI for stats, and this multiclass build was both fairly tanky and dealt some pretty sick damage. Even took the Find Steed spell and my DM allowed me to summon a Parasaur for my mount for flavor :D.
Easily my favorite campaign, and one of the only few that went to 20 and lasted a while after.
Honestly most of my favourite builds are tri-classes. I don't do it for power-gaming reasons, but to create the unique concepts not covered by the core concepts.
I love the ninja for example. You make one this way: pick Human variant, ask the GM if you can swap your proficiency with a fighting style provided they thematically pair. One example is two weapons fighting and duel wielder. Alternatively, archery and sharpshooter go well together thematically. Otherwise just pick a lightfoot halfling instead. Put your first level in rogue, since they get the best saves and the most proficiencies of the 3 classes.
The level 20 build is this: Rogue (Assassin) [3 levels], Warlock (Archfey) [6 levels], Monk (Shadow) [11 levels). For feats, pick either sharpshooter or duel wielder depending on if you're going melee or ranged. Pick warcaster so you can cast magic, have advantage on maintaining concentration and can wield your weapon while fighting. Put your next 4 levels after rogue into either monk or warlock so you get the feat warcaster early on.
The essence of this build is to pick warlock spells that debuff, like faerie fire and cause fear. In one battle as a ninja/battle jester I cast faerie fire on a troupe of orcs, they all failed their save and granted advantage to the party on attacks against them. I then used an Acrobatics roll to jump over one of them (granting him an attack of opportunity where he missed) then I landed in the middle of their group and used fey presence. They all failed their saves again and were afraid of my character causing disadvantage on all their attacks against the rest of the party (but not me because I was flanked on all sides initially).
It was a lot of fun though. I wasn't the damage dealer, but I gave everyone a huge advantage that allowed them to mop the floor with the orcs.
i recently created a paladin warlock multiclass who was on a mission for his church when he stumbled upon a possessed weapon, which picked at his insecurities to have him use it, and is now trying to gets its own agenda forwarded by going “look, i helped you out, now you help me” so pretty excited with where my dm decides to go with this
Multi classing is an optional rule which I do allow but require any additional classes beyond the 2nd and so on to keep increasing the Prime Ability score requirement to be 2 points higher for the new class. this helps to keep down those who want a level in every class.
Paladin 2 + Abjuration Wizard is so much fun. Heavy armor, defense fighting style, big nasty halberd and tons of smites/Shields plus the protection from the abjuration ward. Playing him as a crusader for Mystra with an “oath” to learn magic in order to bring justice to those who misuse it. Most of my favorite characters have been off the wall multiclasses, my drunken monk/ celestial warlock being the other recent example, kind of a Daoist immortal flavor
I was actually thinking of making a multiclass of a druid with a few levels in necromancer. My character is a halfling druid of the spore who's obsessed with poisons and the darker side of nature, and in a campaign I'm in at the moment he's been collecting viles of blood from slain creatures. I think it would be really cool to have basically a druid that's all rotted almost undead commanding undead creatures to do their bidding.
I was playing an elderich Knight. Rationing spells was getting annoying so I was looking at getting the ritual casting feat. Then I realized the ability to use a spellcasting focus was something I wanted as a sword and board fighter; who didn't have a third hand to grab spell components (just strap that crystal to the back of your hand or have it be part of your sword). So I took a level of wizard. As a smart fighter, these would be skills / abilities that I would seek to learn.
I had a witch hunter style character in 4e that was a LG Paladin/Infernal Warlock. He had inherited the Warlock abilities due to 7 generations of infernal warlocks in his family, but rejected his family's atrocities, and devoted himself to fighting evil.
First I will say, love, the video cause I like when you guys do the questions that you answer. I think it really helps newer players understand somethings cause I have taught many people how to play RPGs and they usually get lost in what they want to do and the how to do it effectively.
I agree that being able to have the story guide the players as they grow is the best way to go. It makes the character feel more special to the player. I also agree you don't need to have that be needed cause sometimes it is hard to figure that in.
The thing I see that is a problem is taking 2 levels fighter to get " action surge", but not wanting to be a fighter. Or taking 1 level of "rogue" at first just for skills and then not ever caring to level in it further. What I mean is taking 7 different classes to get an ability here or there seems wrong to what D&D is. I am not against min-maxing. But I can see a reason to not let people multiclass too far. There should be a vision in mind for multiclassing. Like you want to be a ninja and there are no rules for it in D&D 5th ed so you decide that a monk and rogue mix makes the most sense. For that, I don't think you need to roleplay it in the game to make that change. I think that is the purpose you had in mind from the door and you had to wait for a few levels to make it a reality.
When Ted mentioned the Warlock Paladin I understood the desire to make it and he did it right by thinking it out and making it fit the character, but I don't think I would allow it if it was completely contradictory. It would be like a Paladin Theif who was lawful good and stole from everyone. That makes no sense and I would never let someone play it that way. But if the character had a split personality and was a paladin at times and a thief at other times that would be a great character.
In our game, my Changeling Tarocchi (Homebrew class) ended up putting 3 levels into paladin and going Oath of Vengeance for story reasons. So his final level spread is going to be 17 Tarocchi for the lvl 9 spells, and 3 paladin. Although after he fulfills his oath of vengeance, our DM has agreed to let me change the oath.
My favorite multiclass? He started as a level one vHuman Arcane Cleric with Ritual Caster:Wizard and then entirely through roleplay and shenanigans ended up with levels in Tranquility Monk via the medium of getting his butt handed to him in several bar fights a party member started and then for petty reasons spent the campaign going to a local monastery in his downtime to train his fighting ability, subsequently finding inner peace along the way. He ended the campaign as an Arcane Cleric 17 / Tranquility Monk 13 and no, that's not a mistake, we just... it was one of those campaigns you know, we just kept going until it petered out naturally.
In short, while yes multiclassing is often used by power gamers to maximize characters, multiclassing can be a vital component of making a particular type of character personality wise. I’ve even done 3 way multiclassing to make a character that hit a theme to the character’s detriment of power (essentially missing out on ASI’s or ovelapping powers like IPS resistance or extra attack) but in the end I made a character who’s classes reflected their mental state and who they were rather than just for power.
My most recent character is built with lvl 1 fighter, but he only has 8 strength. Because he was so terrible at it he bonded with a magic weapon and became a hexblade warlock.
Here's a great quote from Joe Liker on enworld.
"I think the reasons some people feel a disconnect about multiclassing is because they think of gaining levels as a discrete process rather than a gradual blossoming of power. I see the leveling-up process as a continuous path, not a series of steps, and that path ultimately leads to the fully realized character concept that presents itself at level 20.
That final realization doesn't necessarily fit into the cubbyhole of one of the classes in the book, but that doesn't make it a "mess." It just means that character had a broad range of life experiences and interests.
It's not so strange to me to think that a character with some inherent magical ability (sorcerer) might choose to augment that by forming a pact with an arcane patron (warlock), and eventually develop a level of devotion to that patron that resembles religious zeal (paladin)."
I definitely sympathize with the mechanical side: I’m playing a dexterity fighter and I wanted to shield bash people. The best way I found to do it actually was multiclassing into Monk at level 2 to get the bonus action “unarmed strike” I reflavor as a bash. I don’t even acknowledge that she’s a monk, she’s a fighter just a particularly nimble one.
Recently had a game where everyone started at level 5, I went Rogue Swashbuckler 3 / Warlock Hexblade 2. Sneak attack + booming blade was crazy strong in the first fight
I’ve tried something similar with an arcane trickster with a familiar and then hexblade. Being able to burn my trickster spell slots for smites + sneak attack after my familiar granted me the help action made for some great short novas. But it is a nova build. Once those slots were burned I became the eldritch blaster who’s familiar flew around granted the barbarian and fighter advantage. Changes up a bit when my weapon became a ceremonial dagger of my patron that I could throw and get the sneak attack like a hand crossbow would.
I have multiclassed two times in a campaign. The first is a fighter/barbarian and the issue was being stuck in the Underdark being chased by drow had created a rage that now propelled me in battle. The second was a monk/wizard who was a monk who had a high int stat and studied books with focus on arcana.
I'm currently playing a half-elf who's hexblade/eldritch knight. But both reflavored to be based around an enchanted spear from the feywild. His Patron is the seelie court. He's heavily based in Akeles and cu'chulain.
Our current party has 2 characters that multiclass, a paladin warlock and an artificer wizard. The paladin warlock had a good story reason for doing so, and honestly only lets her not be useless at a range. But the artificer wizard is so powerful. He went with bladesong as his archetype, where he focused on doing one thing really well: moving very quickly. Its my opinion that multiclassing is really good when you try to maximize one aspect of the game. I think in an older video Ted mentioned a ranger he made with the purpose of having the best passive perception, and the DM had trouble putting traps up because he would always see them. In theory its cool to take one seemingly unimportant aspect and maxing it out, but the reprocussions are usually beyond what was expected.
Yea creating the one trick pony is where multiclassing can shine.
In the case of the artificer it's kind of bad example because it's still play test. Matter of fact I just saw today they are planning on doing another pass in UA.
Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy so the wizard-artificer is actually suboptimal. He would have a higher movement speed if he put those levels in monk. But i know what you mean.
@@MrRourk the paladin-worlock had to make a deal with the summer queen (fey pact) to get her warlock levels. The justification for the wizard-artificer was that he was largely self taught, but got training in wizard from various other wizards. It was our DMs first time running a campaign, so i think she knows now but he was kind of a problem for a while. But aside from his melee damage he has always been behind in terms of spell levels
Let's take things in priority: NICE shirt, Ted! Post a link on where to get it if possible, please! I don't like multiclassing JUST for the mechanics, I like there to be a thematic reason or RP reason as well. That being said, some combos are much stronger than others but that can be said for race/class combos too so I see no problem with it. I prefer the character stick with 2 classes but I've allowed a third class for a 1-level dip if it made sense.
The main drawback to level dipping as a caster is slower spell level progression. I know they comment on this, but its a HUGE deal, because no matter what abilities classes get, caster classes are always progressing to higher spell levels which surpass most class abilities on their own.
0:00 Ted consults the High Wizard Dave to talk about stuff and thangs. I love you guys
Thanks. We love you guys too.
Nerdarchist Dave
Multiclassing can be great for character reasons. I have an idea for a Yuan-Ti abomination character. He was a human who was abducted from the city by a transmutation wizard (or he volunteered to work for him because he needed the money) would be a level one rogue then the rest would be monk. He started as a thief, was half turned into a snake, and realized the only place in society that would accept him would be a monastery
my first ever multiclassed c started out as a wizard, and befriended and hung out primarily with the ranger in the party. And ended up learning about being a ranger from him.eventually we rped it out to the point where he was a wizard/ranger and the ranger became a ranger/wizard. both our c's were interested in the otherr's perspectives and what they brought to the party
I run a scourge aasimar NG oath of vengeance lockadin (9 Paladin / 7 Celestial Tomelock).
The Warlock Celestial from Xanathar's Guide to Everything fits perfectly with any healer or cleric / paladin build for multiclassing.
My toon has 3 healing pools:
- Healing Hands (Aasimar, 16p)
- Lay on Hands (Paladin, 45p)
- Healing Light (Celestial Warlock, 8d6)
+ heal spells
The character is the main tank of the party using War Caster (symbol on shield as explained in this video), casting Haste & smiting away with the paladin abilities & buffing the saves of everyone neaby with Aura of Protection, removing curses and doing lesser restorations and healing when needed.
Plus he can throw in in the occasional Mirror Image, Fly, Dimension Door, Tongues, Charm Monster & Hold Monster (starting next level) using both long rest Dispels from the Paladin list and short rest Dispels & Counterspells from the Warlock list if needed;
and a nice set of cantrips and ritual spells for versatility.
Eldritch invocations add good flavor and some more versatility with Eldritch Sight, Eyes of the Rune Keeper, Book of Ancient Secrets and Trickter's Escape.
A pure warlock or arcane caster would've been more powerful, but it's a nice blend :)
You just have to micromanage the Warlock spell slots.
Not overpowered in any way, but works really well as a tank/healer with versatile arcane casting abilities.
A little bit of everything.
Having lots of fun with it :D
My DM allowed me to start a level 3 character as a Bard/Warlock cuz it made sense for RP.
My character slowly gained musical talent and glamour by dealing with the devil essentially.
Currently playing a goliath barbarian/divine soul sorcerer. I do this because he is a faith driven character looking out for people and to atone and this is how he views being a paladin. Mechanically he is a challenge to play but from a roleplaying perspective it is deep and exciting to balance his casting verses his rage.
Campaign length is one thing I find some people (to include myself a time or two) gloss over, which is a great reason to multiclass. If you're never going to hit your Capstone by adventure's end, or there's an interaction that let's you bypass that, then you're almost incentivized to do so.
An example:
A Life Domain Cleric of 9th level may have a fairly low Strength score if the PC envisioned his character to be a "Preacher" type of character; a-lover-not-a-fighter type, if you will. Hence, in this PC's case, a good Charisma score might be more sensible, especially if he's the Preacher type.
Now, by this time (9th character level), he's got access to 5th level spells (Raise Dead and Mass Cure Wounds automatically), which are great, but because of his Strength score, he has to shy away from melee combat. Additionally, the Life Domain Cleric only has access to Saving Throw based attack cantrips, which at higher levels, tend to do nothing.
So what does the PC do?
A Warlock dip could make sense, depending on if the PC goes Celestial Pact or Hexblade.
If the PC goes Celestial Pact, then the PC at Warlock 3 could go Pact of the Chain and take Gift-of-the-Everliving-Ones immediately, which would sidestep the Life Domain's Level 17 Capstone.
If going Hexblade, the PC's melee capacity does increase, notably due to access to the Shield spell, as well as all of the Pact of the Blade features that are front-loaded between levels 1 and 3.
Obviously, neither option takes into account Eldritch Blast, which is a reason by itself to dip into it.
On the flip side, both options however would come at a significant cost, namely the loss of an ASI, some spell slots, and the loss of a guaranteed Divine Intervention @ 20th level (1x/week, due to the "Holy Restraining Order" imposed).
All in all, kudos to Ted for mentioning that cost-benefit analysis point.
I'm curious to hear from Nerdarchy regarding this. Aside from a thematic/storytelling point, it seems like the only major reason to justify an MC dip would be because the adventure itself isn't slated for Level 20, or isn't intended to be an epic level campaign.
As a final thought, it would be interesting to see if 5E implements rules/options for Epic Level Campaigns (for Level 20+ characters).
My Character is multiclassing in two homebrew classes, one of them being a prestige class:
Artificer Gunsmith 15 / Rune Scribe(Prestige) 5.
It lends well to the setting and patches an otherwise lackluster spellcasting ability for the Artificer in the form of Master Runes.
So I'm currently in a Pathfinder campaign, playing a half-orc oracle, aiming to take 2 levels in Oracle and then being a straight Barbarian.
The levels add flavour by giving the rage a definitive source, my character gets a flaw [oracles come with a drawback that gives bonuses] and a little utility in day to day events with cantrips. The choice also gave our party some healing (our first level composition at creation had no healing)
Its going to slow my "I hit it" levels, but I feel that my character is more fleshed out for it (also being able to use low level buffs will probably help through the early levels.
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Onto general contributions
I feel that some classes lend themselves to multiclass and fall in to 2 sets: pick ups and set ups:
Pickups - bolt to a class you already have to hit a niche
Warlock: you make a deal you get some power, Let's go!!
Ranger: You have studied your prey, and can add a smatter of combat/ casting to your build at later levels
Barbarian: here comes the beserk button.
Set-ups - they say who your character is/ where they're from:
Sorceror: Its in your blood (that's racist)
Bard: recognised performer/ studied in a college
Rogue: grew up on the streets
I am sure there are more in each and some that don't fit in either. I believe that multiclassing should always say something OR help you mechanically express your character.
I am currently playing a lv5 shadow monk/ lv3 assassin rogue/ lv 2 hexblade warlock/ lv 1 death cleric.
And he's also a grung.
you get a like for being a grung
does your party lick you often to get high?
Anyone remember the Fighter/magic-user/thief class from 1st edition? The slowest character when it came to leveling up. Boxed edition had multi-class also but you had to stop advancing in your last class. So it wasn't unusual to see a 9 th level fighter/3rd level magic user, as the character was now putting experience into the second class.
Warlock Paladin is great. I often have two that I play, but I keep it story based my deity is also my Pact Master. So i either do conquest fiend under Asmodeus or ancients archfey under Auril.
The Celestial pact cam work with all of them as well.
Some multiclassing just goes together so well mechanically. Any martial class would love to be part fighter for that action surge for example. And if they stick with it long enough, they'll get enough extra ability score bonuses to off set the ones they lost from multiclassing, and you can get extra attack(2) if you go 11 levels in. So then the question becomes, what non full caster classes have stuff in the first 9 levels that make you go "yeah, that's 'enough' now" without making you go "oh man, I really missed the best thing ever by not sticking to this"
Rogues and Barbarians come to mind. Both of those have stuff that aren't gonna make me cry to hard to lose by splitting off. And it gives the fighter-
Rogue: 5ds sneak attack, 2 different instances of expertise, evasion, and a few subclass things that vary depending on the subclass. and a few other things.
Barbarian: Rage and its benefits, reckless attacks, higher average HP, brutal critical (goes especially well with champion), depending on his stats and what kind of armor he wears they now potentially have higher AC by not wearing armor than wearing it. And subclass stuff. and a few other things
Monk: Flurry of blows, like the barbarian you potentially have higher AC, evasion, slow fall, stunning strike, and subclass stuff.
Honestly all of them except paladin because I just dislike losing improved divine smite, so thats one where I would go 11+ levels into paladin and then just dip into fighter for the action surge
my straightman/sourpuss rogue is in a party full of murder hobos to the n'th degree so i'm picking up bard levels as he starts to enjoy life a little (still gonna go college of whispers, no brainer)
Divine Sorcerer with Life Warlock is actually a pretty interesting healer. That range healing the warlock gives is something fun I’d experiment with.
Ranger/Fighter, Ranger/Cleric, Race dwarf, and Ali CG/LG. When doing the fighter it was a two weapon melee warrior that had some healing and buffs to help out. When going with a Cleric it was a war priest meant for dealing damage and healing the party. This was for DDO, Dungeons and Dragons Online. After a few patchs. I dropped the cleric and ranger. Than took up Favored Soul and fighter for a tank meant for taking hits, dealing damage, and healing the party. It was great because I was able to be on the front line all the time. Doing 3 roles at once.
I think multiclassing gives so many opportunities to roleplay that it is crazy fun. Our group started recently new campaign from 5th level because of TPK. Many of our players wanted to play monks and religious/monastery themed game. I was quite into that concept too but wanted to play bard first time so I asked from my DM that is it possible to play cupid or something like that. A litle angel like creature that loves to make songs and stories about humanoids, help them with their problems and unite loved ones for each other. After little bit of research we figured out with my DM that I could play as asimar paladin/bard. Now I can help all these humble humanoids with their journey to divinity while sensing all the evil on their path and making songs of their conquests.
Probably most fun I've ever had when roleplaying.
I sometimes start from the mechanical end and sometimes with the backstory for why I want to multiclass a character, but always make a point to have thought about both in the end. :) Its easy enough to spin some fluff around nearly any combination of classes. In fact I usually find it more difficult to come up with the best way to represent a character theme (that isn’t captured very well by any single class), than the other way around.
We do things similarly in our group.
Nerdarchist Dave
Magic items also can influence how good a MC character can be. My current Haft-orc cleric of knowledge with a dip into wizard
(For roleplay in the beggening but more cantrip , great utility spells, familiar and other great ritual spells without any cost on my spell slots ). I had a low Int but got an headband of brilliance... the wizard in the group wasn't so interrelated into it... but for me that meant a bump of 5 in my Int. Add that to expertise in arcana: wow!
With fighter and rogue, I really like that you can benefit so much from multiclassing into them, and that the prerequisite bar is so low. What does the average adventuring party spend most of their time doing in game? Fighting. What do they spend most of their time doing when not fighting? Looting, breaking rules, and getting into trouble. There you go. Fighter-2 rogue-1 primary class-17. It's always good.
Not a power gamer, but I tend to multiclass almost every character... I find 5e classes get boring, and enjoy the theorycrafting aspect.
Anyone can be a power gamer (or not), I have been acused of power gaming by a person in my group for taking feats instead of ASI's, I play a Fighter Battle-Master they play an Evocation Wizard (we are level 9) I have a +1 crossbow, they have a staff of power (they are the only one in the party who can use it) . . . but because I picked feats to complete a character concept (sharpshooter, crossbow expert, resilient - dexterity) and kill the piss out of most of the things I attack I am a "power gamer" . . . Some people are problematic power gamers and some people just don't like it when you're better than them
making a strong PC and power gaming aren't the same, I like giving characters flaws and weaknesses and when the time arises playing up those flaws
@@thefracturedbutwhole5475 he a evoker thats like the 5E subclass with single attack max damage potantial
Initially my character was going to be a Rogue/Fighter, with the Swashbuckler and Battlemaster mechanics to make a crazy duelist who slices and dices with his swords and has lots of fun (for me) options in combat. For a feat (V Human) I snagged Magic Initiate and grabbed Mage Armor and Prestidigitation, mainly.
But he's also a Charlatan, and that's more of what the party was using - his ability to be social and talk to NPCs and butter them up for favors and so on. And it made sense, over time, I was leaning much more on his social skills than his sneaking or fighting ability. So I swapped to Warlock Fighter, to get the Warlock's access to some of the interesting stuff like Disguise Self and the fun social spells, while still keeping Rogue-like levels of damage. I also swapped Magic Initiate for Prodigy, as I now had Mage Armor at will, but had lost my Thieves Tools proficiency, and my Expertise on Persuasion.
Then I started looking at Swords Bard, and realized that I could really built the character exactly as I wanted, by swapping to Bard Warlock. And so that has become the final, locked-in version of the build. And it's great! I have all the cool social spells like Friends, Vicious Mockery, Charm Persion, Enthrall, Suggestion etc. and then still have the cool sword flourishes and Hexblade + Blade Pact abilities to help out in combat. He is proficient in Forgery, Disguise, and Thieves Tools, plus he has 3 instances of Expertise and is proficient in 7 different skills.
As a DM i limit to MC to a max of 2 classes (IE. Warlock/Sorcerer, Fighter/Barb, Paladin/Bard, etc) nothing insane like a 'Wizard bard fighter rogue'. I also try to have it explained but not in-depth. Except for warlock, they need a damn good reason.
Oh you must love some of the builds we put out.
Nerdarchist Dave
Do it your way ig but, idk why everyone limits their players i let them multiclass however they want, roll stats, everyone starts with a magic item of decent power, and they all start with a feat and every ASI they all get a feat (at the normal levels)
@@snowman9631 Because everyone runs their game differently and have the right to do so?
@@cold_Lightning9well yeah thats the obvious answer, and i said do it your own way and i can throw it back, aside from the things i said that arent in the rules, limiting multiclassing, no feats or other optional rules all it does is limit player creativity. So what if the players can nova a dragon in 1-2 rounds, you just make it 2-3 dragons and then they get a cool story to tell of how they overcame 3 dragons or maybe they dont win but they went down fighting 3 dragons of course they would lose its 3 dragons but, they died like heroes
I only got to play him for a session or two, but a Barbarian 1 Druid 2 taking circle of the Moon. Rage and unarmored defense as a dire wolf was pretty fun to do.
it gets weaker as you get higher level.
@@Quandry1 That's what I thought as well, after reading more into the build recently. At the higher levels you get so many less forms to take that it's almost worth it to take more levels in other classes. Would taking levels in fighter then going into battlemaster for maneuvers make it any better, or no that would be even less damage.
Okay folks, wrap it up this build is for one shots at low level 😂
@@TheBeardedHydra I've had players try it. And I've broken it down in other video's.
It also has an issue some other multi-builds don't face in that it's two classes with strong capstone abilities but I don't bring that up unless people start talking about higher level stuff.
I'd argue that it doesn't benefit from further diluting by other classes because that just weakens the building strengths of the two classes it's built off of even further.
I love multiclassing as a way to demonstrate experiences. Had a major event that influenced your character? Take a level in a class that makes sense for that experience. It will probably throw off the build, but that's just the nature of adventure. It leads to strange places.
More specifically on the topic of multi-classing, I myself prefer that it makes sense to the character. I like to use it as a story-driven element. For example: the most recent campaign I participated in was the Storm King's Thunder adventure book, and I was a Fighter class. After pursuing, encountering, and battling giants many times over early in the module, I decided that my familiarity with them forced him to multi-class into a Ranger with Giant as the favored enemy, going so far as to take 3 levels to become a Hunter.
One piece of advice I tend to adhere to is that as long as it's not a hindrance to the enjoyment of the group, then whatever IT is, the DM should allow it. D&D is a game about fun and creativity, and if you're unreasonably nerfing those for the sake of stubbornness or control, then it's not the type of game anyone really wants to play. If it's fun for everyone, do it! It applies to a wide range of topics in the D&D world, and I believe it's always the best choice.
You mentioned druids and metal armor. I gave my druid the heavily armored feat and then gave her a special set of armor called iron bark armor. It's organic splint armor, vaguely reminiscent of samurai armor. Your thoughts?
David Friant cosplaying as Casanova in this video. Used to only be a sexual icon due to his beard. Now dressing the part!
There are always options for druids to wear heavy armor. there are many types of magical creature skins that can made into armour & have the same stats. They're "not metal". 😎
I multiclass to do a build concept /idea/ story or to fix a flaw in the class/subclass of the primary class. And if a DM didn't allow it I wouldn't play with that DM. I find the statement "don't allow it at your table" line. As I primarily DM I know its not my table and my job (role) is to make what the player wants work. If a player wants to be a Bard/Sorcerer Minotaur, then I look for ways to make that happen, even if that means modifying the campaign setting. Multiclassing is designed for this very purpose. Allowing multiclassing over home brewing a new class is always safer. Wizards already did the balancing leg work, that's why I pay for the books. But the idea that a DM is in charge, has always bothered me I am merely the facilitator.