#stargate #stargatesg1 In this video we look at the various examples of the Tollan surviving the destruction of Tollana. / sg_2_4 www.reddit.com... www.facebook.c...
Except that they kind of did. They were at least settled on two or three words with all of them having a rough head count of their survivors. Thats a first step to rebuilding.
Hi, arrogance will not top survival. There would always be off shoots and groups in other enlightened races. As long as a core remains they can repopulate. Indeed their exploration may have been for this very point. Secret plans may have existed to survive this or another natural catastrophe. It may take time but they would recover. Take care M.
I imagine there were survivors. Some would have hidden. Some would have escaped but some would have faced a worse fate. When I was a leader of a SG1 based RPG, I was planning a Gou’ald whose host was Tolan and used some of their technology to maintain a position of power.
Ah but remember under Tollan law both parties have a right to the body. I’m kidding, but wow I never really thought about it much since in the show we don’t see this often. Prisoners being taken as host, trapped inside their own body as it’s used to commit horrors.
@sg-24 not to mention implantation as interrogation. We know from the events of Mobius that putting a Goa'uld in a prisoner's head in order to extract information is not unheard of, and considering that to the Tollan stuff like Quantum physics is considered an "elementary science", goodness knows what absurd techniques even a more mundane citizen might have comprehensive knowledge of, let alone an actual expert in a given field. Though I suppose since it was Anubis who wiped them out, he likely wouldn't have let that happen. It would be giving an underling access to knowledge and technology that rivaled his own, and he wouldn't like that at all.
@@RipOffProductionsLLC maybe it was a goa uld minor lord who screwed up and anubis was "displeased" and he tries to save his own skin but gets discovered by the sg team because he or she was too nice to the tau'ri for being a real tollan, have him ally with the tau'ri because anubis was "displeased" and these tau'ri are his only hope for survival.
That was how they left Earth, SG-1 gave them the coordinates to the Nox and the Tollans sent an FTL distress beacon so they definitely knew the coordinates to the Nox plus they communicated with the Nox for the trial so they had diplomatic relations with the Nox. However, the Nox are pacifists who believe in non-intervention so there's no indication that they would take on refugees..
If there is one thing that bothered me about writing in Stargate is that civilizations are primarily shown to be in one place. Like civilizations having like 3 cities in an area the size of Arizona being an advanced civilization. As for the Tollan, I could see them having built colonies using ships like the Aschen and being on these planets in relatively small numbers. So maybe 3/4 of the population at the lowest living on Tollana and the remaining quarter being scattered over a few worlds without stargates on them. It was also mentioned than Tollan hyperdrives were relatively slow. Omak mentions it would have taken a Tollan ship more than a lifetime to get from Tollana to Earth. So, even if these small colonies had ships, we have no idea if they could get anywhere quickly. We don’t know how the gate network is distributed. For all we know it’s not distributed around the galaxy evenly and the Tollan might exist in a part of the galaxy where stargates are few and far between. So maybe sending a ship to a planet with a know gate that isn’t Tollan might be out of the question for them. So we don’t see them because there remaining colonies are small, lack stargates and their ships can’t get to one in a reasonable amount of time? Given these limitations, keeping ships closer to home would be a smarter idea than trying to establish contact with Earth.
That’s a really good explanation, and I really like the idea that the Stargates are not evenly distributed across the galaxy. The only issue with it I see is that later seasons introduced faster FTL. I think this change really hit the Tollan hard because they’re supposedly one of the most advanced groups, yet their FTL is laughable compared to what we see later.
@@sg-24I always figured that had something to do with Anubis. He upgraded his ships shields, it would make sense he’d do the same with hyperdrives. The main way that it’s shown you can increase speed is to pump more power into the drive, so maybe the other System Lords did that to keep up with better technology? The Asgard hyperdrives were already crazy fast, it was always the Goa’uld and other human groups that had slow drives. Also, Anubis did probe Thor’s mind. He might have gotten the tech from him. And if the Tok’ra can infiltrate the system lords, they probably spy on each other.
there could be survivors especially if they had small outposts which was not found or one made it to a planet abandoned by the Goa'Uld long ago, now this one lives as the weird hermit
Tollan hyperdrives might have been slow compared to the Goa'uld version but they still had FTL communications. I can imagine scattered survivors asking the Nox for refuge. And even under Anubis there's no indication that the Goa'uld were ever a threat to the Nox homeworld.
One thing you didn't mention is that Anubis probably went and conquered the colonies after taking out the homeworld. Still probably some did survive, but not enough to make a difference.
I did think about that, but I have a really good reason as to why I didn’t bring it up. The books never said it happened. Don’t get me wrong I agree that Anubis, or any Goa’uld would have gone after them, but the implication seems to be they were left alone. Maybe it was some Prothean thing were they delete them from the archives in order to protect them?
@@sg-24 Anubis does have the technology to read minds, so any prisoners could reveal the locations. Plus you did bring up that he was actively trying to capture Tollans on the homeworld, so the chance of a colony existing would be very tempting
@@Katthewm Anubis tech didn't read their minds, it was an implant that would scan their entire minds and extract that data or in thor's case, his entire mind was downloaded, so i suspect Anubis likely tried to capture these people and extract everything he could from them to advance his own position of power.
Lol maybe the colony's adopted a nox like isolation. When anyone suggest helping/interacting with the galaxy at large they point at tolana and go "see what happens when u talk to strangers"
I really love the idea of them surviving in some state, but i feel that we may have missed the WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY to explore that. Maybe the survivors went off and stayed off the grid with the Nox, only re-emergeling after the Ori defeat when a kinder galaxy allows for a safer rebuilding. Or maybe Maybourne is running their world now too. Lol
To quote Vigil from Mass Effect: "The genocide of an entire species is a long, slow process." I think there should be at least a few surviving Tollans. My guess is that they used their advanced technology to hide somewhere in the galaxy, this way they don't need to deal with the Goa'uld, the Replicators, the Ori or any civilization that is less advanced.
I mean, the Tollan were already pretty diminished from the last disaster that fucked up the planet they were living on, and they never gave the indication that they were a particularly prolific people. It might not have taken all THAT long...
when the power of sam carters , black widow feild is so great that it whipes out 90% of an alien race just to get rid of one of her many , many, many love intrests just to get rid of one of said love intrests that managed to survive to the anbius arc. we really should consider romancing her with earths many enemys or other annoyaince races that wont let us touch their cool shit. so the wrath of sam/o'niel shipers may descend upon them like the fury of god.
Falling to simple deception. Having only one way to defend themselves? And having it in the open for anyone to see/analyze. No backup defenses when knowing there are enemies around? Can build gates and not having several in key positions to escape? So advanced. 0 foresight.
The Tok'ra would not have accepted Tolan technology. They went into it when they first met SG1. The Tok'ra explained that their effectiveness is from fitting in. Using foreign technology would have given them away to the Goa'uld.
@@sg-24I remember that scene basically in the field the Tok'ra basically only use Gould tech or things that are so stealthy and do useful that it is worth the risk at least for that mission (and I get the impression that most of that tech is stuff other Gould use in assassination and spy craft but that is speculation) on the other hand Tok'ra do have unique tech they use in their bases but all of it needs to be highly portable usable deep under ground and not obvious on Ghould long range sensors least when on standby and preferably when in use, also they need to not leave a long lasting signature.
While this is true, some of the things would have been acceptable, such as making the scanners and other weapons more effective. The look would be the same, just more powerful.
I'm lucid enough to actually write a thought-out post, so here's what I believe thusfar. I take it that Stargate doesn't generally retcon entire races out of lore for the hell of it, they just have a habit of introducing races that they can't use to make the plot go forwards after a bit and they just have them be wiped out by the big bad guy of the season/seasons. Functionally that actually seems alright, because as cheap as it is, it's a way to close a loop and fill in the narrative pothole. As for if there could be survivors, if they don't outright say that there are no Tollans left, there are Tollan survivors. And if their colonies are still around and its not explicitly mentioned that there colonies were hit after the fact, it's likely that the Tollans can overtime come to rebuild. But realistically, the Tollans have experienced a fall from grace so terrible that they're never going to be able to return to that apex of strength. And it is entirely their fault that they experienced that fall. They didn't take their enemies seriously enough to effectively defend against them, and then they actually let their genocidal enemies wander freely around their homeworld to find the batteries of ion cannons they use to defend against them, and mark them with beacons for precision strikes. Even primitive societies defend valuable infrastructure and the defensive weaponry that ensures they'll carry on surviving as a society. Armories receive guards for these reasons especially. The Tollans do not understand the Technologically the Tollans are probably not going to stagnate too badly after this, or lose that technology. They may not have the means to replicate it for quite some time, as losing the homeworld ensures that quite a lot of valuable infrastructure that was necessary for supporting those colonies is now gone or otherwise inoperative. But they will have the knowledge at least to do so, and with that knowledge they can both trade for aid, and as well, replicate the technology overtime to reach their colonies, and to perhaps build their own stargates. And as well, with it, they'll hopefully not end up making all the same mistakes they did before. There's a chance that the Tollans will take a turn and become something more than arrogant pacifist hippies with a chip on their shoulder - in all likelihood really, they'll probably begin to build warships and start to work on rebuilding what they lost. Maybe even at some point retake Tollana if they reach a point where such a thing ends up palletable and doable. But that's an if, a big one. The Tollans can rebuild their society, they still have the colonies and the ships. But they're never going to return to that arrogant apex of power they enjoyed, and then lost because they couldn't recognize what others could plainly see - they were their own worst enemy.
I like and agree with everything you said. The one thing is Stargate… well they don’t retcon races out of the plot, it’s more like they just ignore them. They may get lucky and their tech or biology may come up again. But for the most part they are just ignored after one or two episodes.
@@sg-24 I suppose that retcon is a poor choice of word. That's as well true. After all, we never figured out what happened to the Gadmeer but they're presumably extant given the ship did make it back to terraform the planet.
Glad you’re enjoying the videos. Also true, but the Asgard never corrected him if he was wrong I have to assume they would. It’s also possible he was being metaphorical given what the other sources said.
@@sg-24 At that point in time, there was no way for either the SGC or the Asgard to know one way or another. All evidence that the SGC said at that point, pointed to them being wiped out. The Asgard were too busy trying to be not wiped out by the Replicators. There is no reason why the SGC would think otherwise, and they didn't exactly have the resources to go check on them at that point in time. In the future perhaps, but we as a viewer would never have any reason to know because it was never central to the plot. There would have been survivors.
I can totally accept that any colonies left after Tollana was sacked would lay real low. On the other hand these colonies would be even more tempting target for Anubis and others. Still all it would take is a small number of Tollan with access to their tech, recources and time to get back on their feet BUT having been caught out like that theyd probably go full Genii hiding their entire presense as much as possible and hiding their infrastructure and population even better a bit like the Nox who we know they knew.
This is personal, but I don't necessarily mind the colonies concept. While they would have some infrastructure, a colony typically doesn't have the means to process and refine the materials needed to rebuild without intense investment and time. So while this wasn't perfect, it wouldn't have necessarily been too insane.
My head canon was that there might have been survivors but very very small amount (talking 100's at the most) and in all practical purposes they were wiped out
I am reminded of a scene from Firefly... Jayne, Zoey and Mal are in Badgers den of thieves... Jayne makes a comment about being stuck up...and then some one says Pretentious. And Jayne replies..yeah...you think you're better than everyone else. Or something along those lines. This reminds me of the Tolan.
To me, the Tollans were never really that interesting except for their technology, which existed in the story solely to showcase how wondrous it was and to keep any of it out of Earth hands. I found Trevell to be haughty and arrogant, while Narim was emotionless and bland. Their final appearance in the episode "Between Two Fires" was just the setting where Tanith revealed that he was taking orders from someone much more powerful (Anubis, of course). To be honest, I wasn't especially broken up about the loss of Tollana, but I did like how it set up the next Big Bad Guy for SG-1 to face and just how insanely powerful he was. It might've evoked a bit more sympathy from me if the Tollans hadn't been so stuffy and flatly monotonous. But this is just my little opinion. There are always others. Great video, though! 😎👍
It strikes me that the Tolen from Stargate are much like the TNG-era Federation from Star Trek: 1) They have a very strict non-intervention policy 2) They are very confident in their own moral superiority. Arrogant, even. 3) They do legitimately mean well, and they do have a legitimate reason for their policies 4) They wear rather silly-looking late-1980s-style clothes, as per TNG 5) They're all atheists, as explicitly stated in their first appearance 6) They don't *appear* to use any form of money (Though this never really comes up) 7) They have a significant technological superiority over most of the other species they come across. 8) They're basically peaceful, only fight if attacked, no death penalty, that sort of thing. 9) kind of naive. the hook for their first appearance is basically "what's it like for the people who suffer because the Federation won't intervene?" I specify 'The TNG Era' (TNG-through-voyager) because in the original Trek, 'noninterference' was obviously much more of a sliding scale, and Kirk and Co repeatedly choose to err on the side of compassion rather than law. And there seem to have been no repercussions from this. Whereas in TNG, it's taken far more humorlessly and (IMO) inhumanely. In the episode "Pretense," Teal'c observes that the Tolen are naive. They haven't fought a war in such a long time that they don't really think strategically, they are relatively easily manipulated by bad actors, and ultimately that's their undoing. I dunno. Just a passing thought. It's interesting because SG1 - and the Gate-iverse as a whole - has no such compunctions about noninterference. They do discuss it early on, and there is a lot of discussion as to whether or not earth/the USAF has the right to do some of the stuff they do, and on occasion first contact situations do go very, very very badly (Such as anything concerning the planet Tegalus, where they accidentally started a civil war, religious fanatics overthrowing the government, and ultimately a nuclear war), so the show doesn't gloss over the issue. And, in some situations, they advise uncontacted aliens on how to isolate themselves from unwanted contact.
They also built their own stargate rather than use a relic left by the Ancients so there is the possibility that they may have a small minigate in a lab as a prototype much as one was built out of toasters, microwaves and whatever could be ordered online in Samantha's basement except perhaps one that won't burn out after a single use. Then there's the possibility of launching spaceships and phasing them so they could not be shot down, the possibility that there was already Tolan's off world and the possibility of just hiding on the planet and going with asymmetric warfare.
My head cannon on the Tolan. It's that they wouldn't go to humans for help.As we are less technologically advanced, they were, however, being mentored by the Nox, A species who also mysteriously vanished, never to be heard from again, and who was the last species that they have Interacted with? So I believe that when the tolin planet was blown up, they fled to the knox, who then both went into hiding, never to be heard from again
There were Tollan colonies mentioned, other planets if I recall. Now these may be tiny, hundreds of people maybe or thousands max. But still, they have people off of the main world so there are survivors, just not enough to make it matter.
And one of the comments I saw in a behind the scenes interview about the Tollan was that while possibly others survived, Narim was one of them… and he was now host of Klorel, whos symbiote never left Tollana. Imagine them apples!
by the way, fandom has many many errors, i wouldn't depend on that site for the correct info 100% of the time in my experience it's right about 85% of the time, i also remember the episode when some of the Tollan survived, but of course it was just referenced very vaguely, but the show writers never came back to their story ark, which was a real shame. but my assumption is they found themselves on some isolated planet or perhaps they found out how to integrate with the Ashen, they were very similar people and had technology that almost mirrored their own, and may not know of SG1's role in knowing their secret for being untrustworthy people who created the sterility vaccine.
@@sg-24 no i don't, it was so long ago, i would really have to go back and watch them the old fashioned way to find that info sadly. but i feel it was referenced on the same episode or maybe a few episodes after the Tollan were taken out.
I can see wanting to get rid of the Tollan from a story telling narrative, but I'd disagree with using it as an argument for their destruction; lets not forget the Nox, they were a powerful, advanced, and pacifist people too and they are still around, and the Asgardians were disadvantaged greatly when Anubis took the memories of Thor to gain the advantage they gained over the Tollan in the first place yet continued to pull through until S10.
It would be amazing if the surviving colonies had formed a permanent trade and defence agreement with the Tau'ri. Yeah they see them as less advanced but the BC 304s would probably change their mind
Well, they survived if and only if they write a new story/episode showing their survivors. But it is true that the existing story allows to have such survivors, without inconsistencies. They don’t need to make timetravel or parallel universe story to make some events un-happen, they just need to find a colony which survived.
It would’ve been cool if the Tauri had got their hands on at least one cannon to backwards engineer and have the Asgard help make it more powerful. Imagine those on the tauri warships and possibly Atlantis as a secondary option to the drones and chew through some wraith hive ships.
That does sound pretty cool. Kind of makes you wonder why they didn’t, especially since I think they did get the designs. Sure they couldn’t replicate it, but with the Asgard core anything is possible.
*SG1 goes back to the planet to find the Tollan survivors, living in caves basically bombarded back to the Stone Age.* Tollan: "You know, we could really do with some help." Jack O'Niell: "I'm sorry. We don't help *lesser* people."
Hello there, I like this kind of video. I may not be very experienced with the Stargate franchise but I like hearing about in this format and approach nevertheless. May I present a scenario to you that could spark into a interesting scenario video? Could a united Starcraft coalition of the Zerg, Protoss, and Terrans defeat a infestation of the Flood that has reached the Gravemind stage of development and if they are able to beat them back and or contain the outbreak what would the aftermaths be? How would some Zerg, Protoss, and Terrans react to the information and secrets they have on the Flood and would they react to some of their kind being mentally tormented by the logic plauge and secrets they could not comprehend? Especially since the Zerg is like a Hivemind would the logic plauge even in a early form affect many of their numbers with insanity for years to come and the trauma it would cause? Circumstances. A fleet of Terrans and a branch of Zerg that have gone rouge from the Zerg hierarchy find a Forerunner shield world the size of a planet which is a research installation with a database dedicated to studying the Flood with security forces run by a Monitor with a small fleet of a few hundred ships as a final failsafe should the Flood completely breakout of the facility however the local Flood outbreak on the installation was able to form a small Gravemind which was smart enough to evade incineration and significantly reduce some of these security defenses including preventing the activation of the Forerunner fleet. A group of Protoss having a disturbing institution they sense will eventually arrive to the shield world as well. The Terrans and rouge Zerg who been fighting each other and the Forerunner security sentinels accidentally break the containment zone of the Flood and the Flood begin spreading out with Pure Forms overwhelming some of the isolated and unprepared Zerg and Terran forces. Gathering their knowledge to the Gravemind as well as understanding where they come from their current mindset and weaponry. The scouting Protoss group arrive to the scene seeing the Flood for the first time and seeing infected Terrans and Zerg mutate into such rotten abomninaitions disturbs them extremely and try to aid the Sentinels, Terrans, and Zerg in trying to exterminate the present Flood threat however shortly after the Flood are able to take many airborn and space flying craft and land boarding parties on some of their ships. A couple ships are taken and escape off world heading for deep space. The Monitor immediately contacts all parties Terran, Zerg, and Protoss forces to inform them of the danger at once and instructs them to clear the Flood infestation stopping his security protocols from being enacted and that the entire galaxy is in danger and the escaping Flood need to be exterminated. Could they stop the Flood in time before it becomes uncontrollable with the help of the small Forerunner fleet?
This an interesting idea, and I do a lot of Halo and fair about StarCraft. I have considered moving into other franchises someday, and I would consider tackling this one, but as to when I would get to it I can’t say.
@@sg-24 I understand and that is pretty good reason. Such interesting topics takes time to consider and make with fine quality and good standard. This could take place some yesrs after the three way truce between the factions. On the scenario I think the Zerg would be the worse greatly affected the most despite their incredible reactive adaption capabilities against poisonous substances and gases being faster and more efficient then even the adaption of the Tyranids the Flood are far far worse then all the deadly diseases the Zerg have ever encountered and their infestation potency seems nearly absolute as no cure was ever found for the Flood. The Forerunners and Ancient Humans tried desperately but they never found a outright immunity for Flood infection by the Supercell only ways to make it a inconvenience at best. And to make matters worse the Forerunners tried to revive infected subjects by putting their minds into cloned bodies and it failed because the nature of the Flood's infection also infects the spirit somehow and that clone body turned into a Combat Form with the Flood Supercell. If Zerg lose their leaders to Flood infection can you imagine to chaos and confusion it would bring as a consequence? The Zerg can try to create and imploy some protective body armor and defensive acid mechanisms to reduce their drones and bases becoming outright combat forms or biomass for the Flood to feed on but a immunity to the Flood is relatively impossible for them to achieve due to the eldritch reality bending nature of the Flood. Zerg forces will be constantly at risk and have constant liabilities due to how they engage in combat which is something the Flood would be all the more welcoming of. If the Terrans doctors were able to find a cure to Zerg's infestation for their colonists but the Forerunners and Ancient Humanity were unable to for the Flood then the potency of these two's horde kinds methods of infections are astronomically far apart from each other it isn't funny. Not to mention the Flood would outright steal the Zerg's traits for their own purposes. So the Zerg would be a complete liability to the coalition's efforts of exterminating the Flood with these variables in mind. They would just be feeding the Flood biomass and with the Flood's expotential rate of infecting entire planetary centers this is a very scary prospect.
I kind of want them to still be around, since Stargate doesn't exactly have an abundance of significant factions floating about within its universe as it is, so having them still be around and in a state where they might actually be capable off playing a meaningful role in the future events of the series could prove to be a positive thing. Having them retain some surviving hidden colonies would be one way to do that or perhaps another would be to have them living as galatic nomads on board their interstellar ships. There still the question of whether or not they possess hyperdrive technology, with the answer to this question being a significant factor in determining how and in what form they might have been able to survive. Still even if their ships don't use hyperdrives there are still plenty of other ways to explain how they might have been able to survive. But yeah in conclusion anything added to help fill in and populate the Stargate universe does appear likely to be a generally positive thing, at least from what i can tell that is.
You know I didn't realize how much I agree with this idea until I read it. Stargates has a very bi-polarity universe. Where really only two factions really matter, and I defiantly prefer the multi polarity setting like we see in Star Trek.
Cool, I always assumed they were completely wiped out in the show. I think it does make sense that they have some offworld colonies or outposts but it does bring up the question as to why they wouldn't have contacted anyone after the attack. Especially since in the show Anubis was eventually dealt with, so you would think any occupation on Tollana would have more or less fallen at that point, so anyone left would be able to come out of hiding and seek help. The only real explanation for the colonies not contacting Earth I can think of is maybe they didn't know about them. We often view other races/cultures in the show as a monolith, but it would probably be a lot more stratified and complex in reality. So maybe only certain high up officials or specific government personnel had any real knowledge about the dealing w/ Earth. And they may have all died. Even the colonies might not have been privy to the information. After all on earth the Stargate is a top secret military project, so anyone using it would be briefed about a lot of what was going on around it. But on Tolan it is just a fancy bus. People could use it to travel around possibly w/o knowing about any of the diplomatic actions taken by the government.
I think any Tollan survivors would double down on their isolationism. They would find planets to hide on and develop a society that relies more on stealth than weapons tech to defend themselves. RE the stargate - well, even if it was destroyed, the could probably build a new one. Again. The ancient who descended built one from items on ebay. In the final view, it doesn't really matter as, except for removing the snake from Sharra, they were not helpful. Perhaps the Nox aided them in using stealth, as they had developed communications with them. Thanks for the fun video.
I’m not 100% sure the planet Tollana even still exists. The capital, planet, and seemingly only city on the planet, is wiped out, the Go’a’uld open the fire on all of the fault lines, and of course, there was a storeroom of incredibly powerful phase shifting bombs. I haven’t watched the episode in a long time, so I may be a misremembering, but I kind of feel like maybe they sent the phase, shifting bombs to the core of their own planet to wipe it out? I’m probably misremembering that. In any event, I don’t think they had any colony worlds, Jack clearly says they were wiped out, and regardless of anybody’s view on extended canon, I think, generally speaking, the actual show itself always has to be taken as primary canon, and then anything in the deuterocanon contradicting that is probably Just not true. No offense if anybody is really attached to it. I don’t mean to be insulting. It’s just the way I think. I think the garbled message at the end of the episode is deliberately garbled, which would have allowed the show to bring the Tolan back if they had a good reason to do so, But assume they are dead if a good reason to re-introduce them never came up. In other words, I think they are extinct unless the TV show writers decided to bring them back, which clearly they never did before the end of the series.
I found it weird the Tollan escape ships didn't seem to have their phase shifting tech so Gau'old weapons fire would pass through them. Anubis might have had weapons that could hit them even shifted, but it wasn't established if so.
@@sg-24 maybe. It could also be they just the thought ever occured to them that their ships might be threatened by superior tech ship until it was too late. Maybe Anubis was watching for them retrofitting any ships with that tech to escape.
A new SG TV show could carry on their story quite readily, 2024 marks 19 years since Anubis was taken off the material plane, locked in the infinite battle. More than enough for a small version of their grandeur to have been rebuilt.
I believe any possible survivors are in several different places. Also the in The system Lords and Anubis have been defeated. To go back to tolana would be just rescue and happened probably in the background of other operations.
i beleive that the tollan were in fact beat to submission but not wiped out anubis probily decimated most of the colonies as he found them but some probily built underground or cloaked facilities that survived just they had no means of beating him so went turtle and bunkered in so they could build there own tech up again and re-enter the galactic stage possibly as a powerfull ally of the tauree
Good video. At absolute minimum, the Tollan had an entire planet to hide on. Doesn't matter how many troops Anubis sent in, I have difficulty believing that he'd ever bag ALL of them. Heck, this kind of situation would just be Tuesday for SG-1 or the Tok'Ra. They referred to their ships being shot down, but a few still might have gotten away. That the Ga'ould shot down the majority, I would attribute to surprise and sheer weight of numbers. Given how how awesome Tollan tech (allegedly) was, I imagine that their ships still had a surprise or two, even when at a severe disadvantage. So, any that chose to "cut and run" would arguably have had a chance. Bitter experience could have led many surviving Tollan, individually OR collectively, to go Full Isolationist. They already had this superiority complex thing, whereby pretty much everybody else in the Galaxy were primitives. Add to that, their deeply ingrained reluctance to share their knowledge, akin to Star Trek's 'Prime Directive'. Then, they get this harsh lesson of just how treacherous and dangerous these 'primitives' can be, and their much-vaunted technology failed to save them. There are still 'primitives' out there who SAY they are friends, but it's no secret that they also want Tollan tech, so can they really be trusted? Easy to picture how at least some Tollan survivors could end up becoming paranoid, even downright xenophobic. Always an annoyance to me that , in most SF franchises, super-advanced races tend to be extreme pacifists. I get why - avoiding easy "outs" for the good guys. Babylon 5 actually came closest to avoiding this - various super-races, and it was not all Black and White. But still .....
I loved this comment for many reasons, the top was that line about awesome Tollan tech (allegedly) 😂. That aside that could be an interesting idea for later. The next big bass being the Tollan survivors who now see the whole galaxy as primates.
@@sg-24 Thank you. Something else that only just occurred to me. Tollan as Ga'ould hosts? Since they are human (or close enough), I'd infer this would be possible. But what I wonder about is what the Tollan might have done to themselves beforehand. Thinking implants, genetic engineering and whatever else the Tollan might routinely do to protect against disease, parasites and the like - both for their own world(s) and elsewhere. That they might have SOMETHING inbuilt that just happens to also make implantation problematic is unproven, but at least plausible.
Sorry for some reason I didn’t see this comment till now. It would be possible since they are decedents from humans from Earth. I’m not sure how their implants, which we saw they did have, would work with the Goa’uld.
They had enough ships to move their entire population and rebuild every city. It's ridiculous to think they didn't have other colonies and outposts. The problem is, that once the served their purpose in the story line, they needed to disappear. Once they were attacked and harmed by the Goa'uld, their colonies, who would have already known about the threat, would have been on a more warlike standing. The Stargate story line did not want another powerful group of humans. They only worked as long as they were passive. They also knew that the Goa'uld were the enemies of humans. It's reasonable that they could take the path of isolation, but they would have been constantly monitoring the Goa'uld, and would be updating their technology in case the Goa'uld did too. Their society was designed to the fit the story, and it is really one of those sci-fi civilization that would be too stupid to exist as described. Another major hole in their destruction story, was that they cooperated with Anubis and then because of a minor sabotage, Anubis destroyed them. If Anubis had any intelligence at all, he would have just made them construct new weapons. He would have destroyed them eventually in any case, but he would have waited until they built more weapons and sent one to earth. Anubis was the worst (as in poorly constructed) villain in the entire series. The stories worked because most of the other characters were pretty good. The Goa'uld attacked them just a year or so earlier, and destroyed almost all of their defense systems. That would have caused a major reevaluation of their supposed invulnerability, and they would have been in the process of taking actions to protect their population. Writers make civilizations monumentally stupid to fit a story.
Having one ion Cannon is useless to cover earth and to be honest...the tolans literally ripped off Earth with that deal. But...since they had one, they could have installed it on the Prometheus or dedalus, or if not capable to install on a ship transfer it to Atlantis ..., but it was never mentioned again.
I gotta ask: what, if anything, did the Tollan actually DO in service to the fight against the Goa'uld? I mean, maybe they could have done some off-screen stuff we never heard about, but is there any specific indication in the show that they ever actually did anything particularly useful...?
No. After Goaulds, Replicators and Ori all ruined the milky way galaxy, there is close to ZERO chance any Tolan comunity did survive. Unless they somehow managed to reach the NOX homeworld, right after the Anubis take-over. Maybe had some ships out of their star system at the time of the attack, but almost everything left there was destroyed. Possibly dozens of people managed to run trought the Tolan Stargate, but WHERE is the question.
@@sg-24 I kinda fear, that after repli-Carter led the Replicators in the Milky way, Nox got eaten. I mean - she knew the level of their tech and roughly position of their planet (according the stargate adress to get on their planet). Would explain, why no another Nox spotting was reported...
The phasing tech was small, hand held, meaning all they would need is to send one bomb with the small device to the power room or even just through the shields of the attacking ship. They had ships too so they had colonies.
Okay weirdly enough I just read a comment about the phase bombs, but it was about them phasing through the planet and blowing it up. Moving on I assume all the bombs were destroyed. But even if they weren’t I can kind of see the Tollan not using them. Edit: okay seeing edited version now. To be honest I don’t have a good reason beyond the Tollan are really bad at military strategy and focused only on evacuation
Sorry I meant to say the hand held devices not the bombs we saw getting blown up. I've edited it to what I meant to say. Like the one Narim uses in their first appearance and triad.
much of the Tollan homeworld locations were filmed at Simon Fraser University, located on Burnaby Mountain, in Vancouver, where the series was shot, primarily the main large courtyard in front of the SFU library building and the Quad, 4 sided building with a small green park inside.
I think they had colonies but they are probably as different as the u.s. and England or Mexico and Spain. I also like that they are surviving in the ruins of their world. Also they stated in their initial meeting with sg1 after seeing an eagle that all the animals on their world had been killed off. So unless they were bringing them in from somewhere else don't know how they would be hunting.
I do like that idea, the colonies being as different as countries given what we know about them. As for the animal's thing I assume they would have brought some of them to from Tollan to Tollana, as well as Tollana having native wildlife.
That is something I thought about when writing the script for this. Maybe we could say the Grace alien ship was a Tollan ship. And they were defending their territory from outsiders.
"Wiped out by the Gould" could be a figure of speech by Jack O'Neill to get the point across that their race underwent catastrophic population decline. Similar to how people referred to the American Chestnut as extinct after the chestnut blight.
I would have thought that the Tollan (not in huge numbers) could have used their phase technology sink into vast underground tunnels under the surface of their world. I would hope that Narum would have lead many of his people to the vast underground caverns. I think once they are able to build some starships (which would be even superior to the Asguard). They would leave what is left of Tollana and maybe even visit Earth to share their tech with SG1.
Some have comment about that, I’m not sure why they didn’t use the phase shift. Maybe it wasn’t available to the general public? To be honest I don’t think Tollan ships were better than the Asgards. The Asgard regularly traveled between galaxies, while the Tollans seem to take weeks/months to travel between two points in one galaxy. Granted we don’t know the distance between these points, but still.
@@sg-24 No problem! Pellor has an entry on the Stargate Fandom wiki that references the novels and states that they retrieved over a dozen survivors from Tollana after the Go'uld attack. It also states they were in the "cybernetic age" of technology with an FTL ship and no stargate and that Pellor became the new capital.
In their first appearance, the Tollan are legitimately more intelligent, savvy, capable, and wise than anything Earth could dream of. In later appearances the Tollan are arrogant fools who need to kiss SG-1's feet if they value their lives, and they don't, so they die. Except for the one who has a crush on Sam, but dies anyway. I sense a great difference in the scripts in how to portray alien space-faring species. It's similar to Halo. If the rules of American/Canadian science fiction were carved into Mount Rushmore in 100 foot high letters, with the first rule being "The aliens are _MORE POWERFUL_ than the United States armed forces" within five years Mount Rushmore would be nuked.
I mean the Tollan were always kind of arrogant, or at the very least kind of rude. Also I wouldn’t say that every depiction of aliens in American/Canadian science fiction go out of their way to say the US army is best. Some go out of their way to criticize it.
@sg-24 Let me run down a list of my favourites: Star Wars, nope, the evil Galactic Empire triumphs, Star Trek, the Enterprise/Voyager/Discovery/DS9 have to win, or hit the big reset button, Doctor Who, the British are murdered, and the big reset button doesn't actually bring back the soldiers who die, Farscape, the Australians are aliens, and eventually win because they have one good American from NASA to vouch for them, Babylon 5...Earth is regressed to the Middle Ages by the Elvish Minbari aliens and humans adopting Space Age Lord of the Rings Numenor, Lexx, 98% of it shouldn't even exist, but the 2% that's actual plot the Earth is completely destroyed, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the Earth is destroyed across the entire multiverse because the Vogons really REALLY want that hyperspace motorway bypass built so people using it can get to where they want to go a little faster. Stargate, Halo, Mass Effect, and Independence Day start off with unbeatable aliens, which Stargate, Mass Effect, and Halo knew how to solve--by finding more powerful allies, and uniting the galaxy against the oppressors. Of these Mass Effect actually succeeded in fulfilling the original premise, whilst Stargate and Halo later in the series pull an Independence Day move and leaves America as the ultimate power in the universe--specifically America, although in Stargate for some unfathomable reason, America still has to play politics with the rest of the world, whilst in Halo the rest of the world is wiped out, especially and specifically Sydney, Australia for some reason. It's not so much a common pattern in the science fiction that I watch as really, glaringly obvious when the writers are adrenaline junkies and not actually capable of thinking.
@sg-24 Anyway, it's obvious that I'm going to need to rewatch and/or replay all those series simply to revitalise old memories as soon as I actually get a place that I live in long enough to unpack. I'd like to be able to do the same thing with my life, but the countries and places I lived in are probably very much changed, except for the simple fact they cost too much for me to live there--that has never changed. I say this because my memories of the Tollen are faint, but I think the problem with thinking the Tollen were arrogant is that the SGC had to deal with essentially real-world American politics, or at the very least, fictionalised West Wing, NCIS, and Law & Order style politics. As far as the Tollen were concerned, America could fall under the control of...uh...for example, China, Brazil, Russia, Korea, or the Middle East, at any time...and in fact, the SGC had a particular Senator of chief concern, who got his "friend" elected as President because he misjudged how shrewd, farsighted, and morally upstanding his friend actually was--a lucky break in a string of lucky breaks for the SGC. Now, the Tollen rescued in the first episode by rights, should have been able to stay on Earth, in a technological society, whether that be in Germany, Japan, New York, Belgium, or some other relatively safe place with technological access...such as New Zealand? Attempting to send them to Cuba or the Phillipines, or Somalia, or to live with the last out-of-contact tribe in the Amazon rainforest is...a little bit like astronauts from NASA, or millionaires and billionaires being unable to return to America because somehow new legislation revokes the citizenship of anyone who goes into space. Maybe that's a bad example? What I remember is that in later episodes, the Tollen were written to be irrational, whereas in the first episode, their response was entirely rational to the ridiculous nature of the SGC: aliens can attack in big spaceships and our nukes are as effective as throwing a wet fish at aircraft carrier, yet the Stargate program has to be kept SECRET?
@@3mpt7 I mean with the Galactic Empire it did lose in the end and was succeed by liberal democracy. I don't have much to say about the other examples, mostly because for a few I have not seen. As for Halo and Stargate I mean yeah, they do have a big turnaround for the heroes, but a lot of stories do that. And I also wouldn't say, at least for Halo, that specifically America won, because America doesn't exist in Halo. As for in SG yes, the US is the most powerful nation, but they did have to deal with other nations more and more as the shows went one. The Atlantis Expedition was a multi nation one. This like that were indicating that the US was willing to start sharing more power. And at least as far as I can tell this was never done with the intention of saying the US was better than anyone else. As for the rest I do hope you find a place to live long term soon. I'm kind in a similar boat right now and I'm hoping that in the next few months or so that will change. As for the rest I do recall of Tollan having some legit rational, especially when it came to distrusting the government, but they did always come across as slight arrogant. For example, when Danile talks to the Tollan about the Nox he points out that the Nox call them "Young" while the Tollan call them "Primitive". Which even points out is a lot nicer thing to say.
@sg-24 Natasi Daala, Imperial Warlord, succeeded Borsk Feylya and Princess Leia as Chief of State in Star Wars. I can assure you that the Dark Side effectively won in both the Del Rey and Dark Horse saga, and the later Rey Disney saga, due to the disgrace and death of the heroes seen in A New Hope. The only timeline in which the heroes didn't lose was the Bantam books era, which some people were bored with, and which had ended some time before the Twin Towers disaster--as Star by Star was published around the same time, and the Clone Wars era was taking off. Sorry, I know you like the RPG sourcebook Tollan's fate, and I'm not arguing that they didn't deserve it, given their consistent depiction across everything aside from their first appearance. Star Wars in the Bantam, and pre-Disney Marvel comics era had the pre-airport security American optimism about the future, even with the Death Star. Likewise, in the first Tollan appearance, I see a lot of influence from the Steven Spielberg E.T film, Tolkien Elves and gods, 2001 A Space Odyssey, Christian angels, and other instances in which the Tollan have every right to say what they're saying about humanity. BUT in ALL later depictions, they're another nuisance government with some neat near future or little known at the time technology in their smart homes. I just find it frustrating that the writers wasted them, like the Furlings, the Nox, the Asgard, the Fire and Water guy, the Tokra, the System Lords, and even the Ancients. When you only have half a dozen advanced civilizations in the galaxy, the loss of one is keenly felt. It's not like Earth, where half a dozen countries could vanish, and most of us wouldn't notice until 50 years later when looking at an updated globe.
If there are survivors, especially on a colony world, they might have become even more isolationist than before. They might have moved again to a place where even Anubis couldn't find them. From a planet without a sun in interstellar space to constructing a hollow world between galaxies in a place where it is unlikely that they would be found. Though the whole affair might have invigorated their scientific interests gearing towards new ways to hide and defend themselves. They might turn out like the Vanir, the Asgard of the Pegasus galaxy. Which could have gotten interesting if either were followed up.
I have always found it ludicrous when you have supposedly advanced races claiming that they cannot do anything with something so "primitive." In reality what that usually means to me is that the character in question isn't as intelligent and learned as they portray.
Fun thing I noticed while eating this, if you look in the background on the right hand side. While everyone else is running around like the world is going to end, there just some guy walking around. I’m sure that’s just a student who got caught in the shot.
Hard to say. They were able to produce tech that would be just as advanced as Ancients (such as ion cannons). But ship wise they seemed to be far behind what Ancients had.
@@sg-24 This is true. Although there was a big time gap between Earth finding Tolans and seeing their tech and not understanding how it works, and Earth finding any tech from the ancients, it did seem like SGC couldn't comprehend how the Tollan tech seemed to work at all but never got that same level of questions about ancient tech. Could be they had a better understanding at the time they had found ancient tech, or maybe the tollans have a totally different way of doing tech than earthlings or ancients and this could limit things like advances in space travel.
@armedbobery4879 I’m tempted to say the later. I remember Sam saying that Tollan tech had no mechanical moving parts. I’m sure with time they could have understood it, but it could be that it was different enough that it led to some advancements and some delays.
Maybe there isn't an easy way for them to get from their other colonies to earth. We don't know much about them so maybe they are terraformed worlds that don't have a star gate on them preventing any real movement of the survivors to regroup with Earth.
There is some lore on them that I didn’t add for this video (later one planned) but if I recall these colonies were originally cut off. So I don’t think they had stargates.
once they had star ships they should have gone back to the planets they got cut off from like the one that was underground or the one where they were put in little cages
It would be hilarious if a Tau'ri BC-304 ship found a Tollan colony and refused to help them with resources since it's "wrong" to help lesser advanced races with more advanced technology
@@sg-24 I just remember a comment by Daniel that the Tollan would be able to have a ship “swing by” wherever it was “sometime in the next year”. I can’t remember the episode
The 1 thing i learn from the stargate universe is this. Being a pacifist, is like being a piece of meat for a hungry cage predator. Its only a matter of time
Why couldn't some of them use there phase/fase tech, so that the bombs had noneffect on them? Phase through a mountain where a cave is to hid from the attack. Something at least.
Maybe some did, which is where some of the survivors come from. As for why more didn’t I’m not sure. Though I am wondering if that tech was just something not available to the wider public
Ok...what do i think... Well, after watching all of your video, i think... You covered it all and i have nothing to say except this silly comment in lieu of it. Well done my good sir. Chapeau...Chapeau.
I supposed that depends on what you count as canon. For the old RPGs most agree no. Worlds was supposed to be. Everyone was behind the idea, even the writers of the show, but it fell off when the studio closed. As for the new one it’s in a weird place. Again a lot of people do t consider stuff outside the shows as canon, but MGM stepped in to review the book before it was releases, giving their approval. If you consider none of that stuff canon then no.
never liked that story tbh. nothing suggests the ancients could make shields that just make you immune to weaponsfire. yet anubis can, but like only this one weapon.
See I’m not so convinced. And the reason I say that is because I’m the most recent one MGM stepped in to review it before it got published. And that one seemed to try and clean up slot of the inconsistencies between the show and old RPGs.
The Thollans ARE humans so without access to their civilization, they are just humans. If they cannot propregate their culture, they are gone. They would not be Thollands anymore.
Lets say we colonised mars it has a population of a few thousand it would take them decay's at least and centres at most to develop all the infostructure they need to become self sufficient on mars, about the Tollan colonies without their new home world may not have been able to sustain themselves so they could have been abandoned to join more developed civilisation's
Well, as far as the RPG books are concerned they aren't cannon to the show, what we see from the show is that it considers them completely destroyed. I also don't think Anubis used their tech as it would have been useful on multible occasions, probably because he sees ancient tech as being superior. He could also just use them as hist or pull info from their minds if he needed too. But I recall watching a scifi short interview thing which stated that the producers did think there were Tolan survirors or worlds, probably where the books got the idea from, and at that time hadn't done anything with the idea. Considering Prometheus was not exactly reliable at the time so the only ships they had access to were Tokra and were or would be on the mend around this time, I don't think there was a way to write this in. But I think the bunker idea is what would happen. After all, it wasn't until the Tolan started to involve itself in interstellar politics more that their new homeworld was destroyed, so they may have chosen to remain in isolation and hidden. But I would have liked to see Tolan survivors idea explored on screen, especially as Earth got more reliable ships.
@sg-24 Yes, it was in one of those behind the scene things which SciFi channel used to do. I was even about to add that, the idea stayed alive until Narim's actor was cast as Wier's boyfriend so they assumed that they were going to leave them extinct. However they did think they could bring them back in another form in season 9 or 10, but by that time ScFi's parent company NBC Universal was looking for cuts, and so SG-1 was cancled.
What I’d say is they left their planet by way of the stargate and ship to their nearest colonies and the colonies simply went dark in order to avoid the enemy they may have even contacted the nox for some assistance in leaving or use of their stealth technology . As for the colonists size it was never fleshed out so it could be under 10k or over either way it made sense to go dark bury their local gate till a predetermined time then reestablish connections with the other colonies. As for the home planet some survivors probably hide deep in the mountains and underground shelters considering they could phase through solid objects they could have easily hide deep enough that ring technology could penetrate. plus the enemy didn’t retain the shield technology for long after the sgc destroyed them so they could have built defenses on the colonies and made ships strong enough to defeat the gauld and took the home world back. Just saying they were so smart that they were dumb and helpless I don’t think fits.push anyone to survive and their way of thinking changes to survival mode and they will adapt
Will try to watch it later when i have a minute but i always thought it would have been a great idea to have the surviving tollan join the tokra to make them create a new blended identity. Make two united and feel like they could actually become an actual threat to the gould if only as a power that could rival one or two mid system lords.
That is a really interesting idea. A lot of people have been going for a Tollan the new villains angle, but I think it makes more sense for them to team up with old allies.
@@sg-24thank you for the reply. I thought it would have given a feeling of creating a new alliance council with the "tolkera" and the free Jaffa nation making a new alliance. All they need was the two factions to become one and have the tokra queen or new queen take her place to keep their numbers up. I never understood otherwise how the tokra could have such a major city after the end of the movie. ive always figured there were at this point being only a few hundred to a couple of thousand since they can't easily replace their numbers. Having willing hosts and a queen would fix that for me in my mind at least.
@seanfarrell6386 right and if I remember why that’s why they pulled out of the alliance with Earth and the Jaffa. They couldn’t afford to replace any losses. There actually a book that deals with this subject, invoking the Tok’Ra time traveling to find a queen.
I'd imagine an outcome like Ronan's people from SGA any possible survivors would be scattered across the galaxy unable to rebuild their society
That’s actually a pretty good outcome to compare.
Or the travelers who chooses to remain Nomadic to avoid becoming a stationary target.
Except that they kind of did. They were at least settled on two or three words with all of them having a rough head count of their survivors. Thats a first step to rebuilding.
Hopefully, they did have other colonies. Although, they may have been arrogant enough to have most of their eggs in one basic.
Hi, arrogance will not top survival. There would always be off shoots and groups in other enlightened races. As long as a core remains they can repopulate. Indeed their exploration may have been for this very point. Secret plans may have existed to survive this or another natural catastrophe.
It may take time but they would recover.
Take care M.
Basket
I'm a simple man. I see a video from SG-24, I click.
Kind of weird heading someone refer to me in the third person…. Keeping going.
I imagine there were survivors. Some would have hidden. Some would have escaped but some would have faced a worse fate. When I was a leader of a SG1 based RPG, I was planning a Gou’ald whose host was Tolan and used some of their technology to maintain a position of power.
Ah but remember under Tollan law both parties have a right to the body.
I’m kidding, but wow I never really thought about it much since in the show we don’t see this often. Prisoners being taken as host, trapped inside their own body as it’s used to commit horrors.
@sg-24 not to mention implantation as interrogation.
We know from the events of Mobius that putting a Goa'uld in a prisoner's head in order to extract information is not unheard of, and considering that to the Tollan stuff like Quantum physics is considered an "elementary science", goodness knows what absurd techniques even a more mundane citizen might have comprehensive knowledge of, let alone an actual expert in a given field.
Though I suppose since it was Anubis who wiped them out, he likely wouldn't have let that happen. It would be giving an underling access to knowledge and technology that rivaled his own, and he wouldn't like that at all.
@@RipOffProductionsLLC maybe it was a goa uld minor lord who screwed up and anubis was "displeased" and he tries to save his own skin but gets discovered by the sg team because he or she was too nice to the tau'ri for being a real tollan, have him ally with the tau'ri because anubis was "displeased" and these tau'ri are his only hope for survival.
The best option for any Tollan Survivors were to contact The Nox. That is if they knew the coordinates to their planet.
I have to assume some do, though maybe only government officials.
They worked with the nox to build their stargate
That was how they left Earth, SG-1 gave them the coordinates to the Nox and the Tollans sent an FTL distress beacon so they definitely knew the coordinates to the Nox plus they communicated with the Nox for the trial so they had diplomatic relations with the Nox. However, the Nox are pacifists who believe in non-intervention so there's no indication that they would take on refugees..
If there is one thing that bothered me about writing in Stargate is that civilizations are primarily shown to be in one place. Like civilizations having like 3 cities in an area the size of Arizona being an advanced civilization. As for the Tollan, I could see them having built colonies using ships like the Aschen and being on these planets in relatively small numbers. So maybe 3/4 of the population at the lowest living on Tollana and the remaining quarter being scattered over a few worlds without stargates on them.
It was also mentioned than Tollan hyperdrives were relatively slow. Omak mentions it would have taken a Tollan ship more than a lifetime to get from Tollana to Earth. So, even if these small colonies had ships, we have no idea if they could get anywhere quickly. We don’t know how the gate network is distributed. For all we know it’s not distributed around the galaxy evenly and the Tollan might exist in a part of the galaxy where stargates are few and far between. So maybe sending a ship to a planet with a know gate that isn’t Tollan might be out of the question for them. So we don’t see them because there remaining colonies are small, lack stargates and their ships can’t get to one in a reasonable amount of time? Given these limitations, keeping ships closer to home would be a smarter idea than trying to establish contact with Earth.
That’s a really good explanation, and I really like the idea that the Stargates are not evenly distributed across the galaxy. The only issue with it I see is that later seasons introduced faster FTL. I think this change really hit the Tollan hard because they’re supposedly one of the most advanced groups, yet their FTL is laughable compared to what we see later.
@@sg-24I always figured that had something to do with Anubis. He upgraded his ships shields, it would make sense he’d do the same with hyperdrives. The main way that it’s shown you can increase speed is to pump more power into the drive, so maybe the other System Lords did that to keep up with better technology? The Asgard hyperdrives were already crazy fast, it was always the Goa’uld and other human groups that had slow drives. Also, Anubis did probe Thor’s mind. He might have gotten the tech from him. And if the Tok’ra can infiltrate the system lords, they probably spy on each other.
there could be survivors especially if they had small outposts which was not found or one made it to a planet abandoned by the Goa'Uld long ago, now this one lives as the weird hermit
Tollan hyperdrives might have been slow compared to the Goa'uld version but they still had FTL communications. I can imagine scattered survivors asking the Nox for refuge. And even under Anubis there's no indication that the Goa'uld were ever a threat to the Nox homeworld.
One thing you didn't mention is that Anubis probably went and conquered the colonies after taking out the homeworld. Still probably some did survive, but not enough to make a difference.
I did think about that, but I have a really good reason as to why I didn’t bring it up. The books never said it happened. Don’t get me wrong I agree that Anubis, or any Goa’uld would have gone after them, but the implication seems to be they were left alone. Maybe it was some Prothean thing were they delete them from the archives in order to protect them?
@@sg-24 Anubis does have the technology to read minds, so any prisoners could reveal the locations. Plus you did bring up that he was actively trying to capture Tollans on the homeworld, so the chance of a colony existing would be very tempting
@Katthewm oh… I don’t think I have a good reason then. Maybe Anubis did wipe out the colonies and that’s why we never heard from them again.
@@Katthewm
Anubis tech didn't read their minds, it was an implant that would scan their entire minds and extract that data or in thor's case, his entire mind was downloaded, so i suspect Anubis likely tried to capture these people and extract everything he could from them to advance his own position of power.
Lol maybe the colony's adopted a nox like isolation. When anyone suggest helping/interacting with the galaxy at large they point at tolana and go "see what happens when u talk to strangers"
I really love the idea of them surviving in some state, but i feel that we may have missed the WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY to explore that. Maybe the survivors went off and stayed off the grid with the Nox, only re-emergeling after the Ori defeat when a kinder galaxy allows for a safer rebuilding. Or maybe Maybourne is running their world now too. Lol
Might be the basis for a sequel though by centering around a surviving Tollan colony.
To quote Vigil from Mass Effect: "The genocide of an entire species is a long, slow process."
I think there should be at least a few surviving Tollans. My guess is that they used their advanced technology to hide somewhere in the galaxy, this way they don't need to deal with the Goa'uld, the Replicators, the Ori or any civilization that is less advanced.
I mean, the Tollan were already pretty diminished from the last disaster that fucked up the planet they were living on, and they never gave the indication that they were a particularly prolific people. It might not have taken all THAT long...
when the power of sam carters , black widow feild is so great that it whipes out 90% of an alien race just to get rid of one of her many , many, many love intrests just to get rid of one of said love intrests that managed to survive to the anbius arc. we really should consider romancing her with earths many enemys or other annoyaince races that wont let us touch their cool shit. so the wrath of sam/o'niel shipers may descend upon them like the fury of god.
My God… the answer was staring us in the face all this time!
Falling to simple deception.
Having only one way to defend themselves? And having it in the open for anyone to see/analyze.
No backup defenses when knowing there are enemies around?
Can build gates and not having several in key positions to escape?
So advanced. 0 foresight.
😢 so sad.. the bad decisions of their government doomed so many innocent civillians...
Good point. They’re government may have been arrogant, but there were innocent people who really lost in the end
@@sg-24sounds kinda human, ehhh?
Yep
The Tok'ra would not have accepted Tolan technology. They went into it when they first met SG1. The Tok'ra explained that their effectiveness is from fitting in. Using foreign technology would have given them away to the Goa'uld.
Uh… I don’t remember that. Then again it’s been a while since I watched that episode. My good then.
Definitely give The Tok'ra another watch. It's a great episode and totally worth it.
@sg-24 okay, I was happily convinced to rewatch The Tokra part 1. They mention it around 40 minutes in.
@@sg-24I remember that scene basically in the field the Tok'ra basically only use Gould tech or things that are so stealthy and do useful that it is worth the risk at least for that mission (and I get the impression that most of that tech is stuff other Gould use in assassination and spy craft but that is speculation) on the other hand Tok'ra do have unique tech they use in their bases but all of it needs to be highly portable usable deep under ground and not obvious on Ghould long range sensors least when on standby and preferably when in use, also they need to not leave a long lasting signature.
While this is true, some of the things would have been acceptable, such as making the scanners and other weapons more effective. The look would be the same, just more powerful.
Jack knowing his character, saying they're "wiped out" holds so little water.
I’m not so sure.
I'm lucid enough to actually write a thought-out post, so here's what I believe thusfar.
I take it that Stargate doesn't generally retcon entire races out of lore for the hell of it, they just have a habit of introducing races that they can't use to make the plot go forwards after a bit and they just have them be wiped out by the big bad guy of the season/seasons. Functionally that actually seems alright, because as cheap as it is, it's a way to close a loop and fill in the narrative pothole.
As for if there could be survivors, if they don't outright say that there are no Tollans left, there are Tollan survivors. And if their colonies are still around and its not explicitly mentioned that there colonies were hit after the fact, it's likely that the Tollans can overtime come to rebuild. But realistically, the Tollans have experienced a fall from grace so terrible that they're never going to be able to return to that apex of strength.
And it is entirely their fault that they experienced that fall. They didn't take their enemies seriously enough to effectively defend against them, and then they actually let their genocidal enemies wander freely around their homeworld to find the batteries of ion cannons they use to defend against them, and mark them with beacons for precision strikes. Even primitive societies defend valuable infrastructure and the defensive weaponry that ensures they'll carry on surviving as a society. Armories receive guards for these reasons especially. The Tollans do not understand the
Technologically the Tollans are probably not going to stagnate too badly after this, or lose that technology. They may not have the means to replicate it for quite some time, as losing the homeworld ensures that quite a lot of valuable infrastructure that was necessary for supporting those colonies is now gone or otherwise inoperative. But they will have the knowledge at least to do so, and with that knowledge they can both trade for aid, and as well, replicate the technology overtime to reach their colonies, and to perhaps build their own stargates. And as well, with it, they'll hopefully not end up making all the same mistakes they did before.
There's a chance that the Tollans will take a turn and become something more than arrogant pacifist hippies with a chip on their shoulder - in all likelihood really, they'll probably begin to build warships and start to work on rebuilding what they lost. Maybe even at some point retake Tollana if they reach a point where such a thing ends up palletable and doable. But that's an if, a big one. The Tollans can rebuild their society, they still have the colonies and the ships. But they're never going to return to that arrogant apex of power they enjoyed, and then lost because they couldn't recognize what others could plainly see - they were their own worst enemy.
I like and agree with everything you said. The one thing is Stargate… well they don’t retcon races out of the plot, it’s more like they just ignore them. They may get lucky and their tech or biology may come up again. But for the most part they are just ignored after one or two episodes.
@@sg-24 I suppose that retcon is a poor choice of word. That's as well true.
After all, we never figured out what happened to the Gadmeer but they're presumably extant given the ship did make it back to terraform the planet.
I am really enjoying your videos. When O'Neill said they were whipped out, he was giving his opinion of what Stargate Command concluded or believed.
Glad you’re enjoying the videos.
Also true, but the Asgard never corrected him if he was wrong I have to assume they would. It’s also possible he was being metaphorical given what the other sources said.
@@sg-24 Agreed. it is also possible the Asgard did not know as by the terms of the Protection Planet Treaty Tollan would not be a conqueror people.
@@sg-24 At that point in time, there was no way for either the SGC or the Asgard to know one way or another. All evidence that the SGC said at that point, pointed to them being wiped out. The Asgard were too busy trying to be not wiped out by the Replicators. There is no reason why the SGC would think otherwise, and they didn't exactly have the resources to go check on them at that point in time. In the future perhaps, but we as a viewer would never have any reason to know because it was never central to the plot. There would have been survivors.
I can totally accept that any colonies left after Tollana was sacked would lay real low. On the other hand these colonies would be even more tempting target for Anubis and others. Still all it would take is a small number of Tollan with access to their tech, recources and time to get back on their feet BUT having been caught out like that theyd probably go full Genii hiding their entire presense as much as possible and hiding their infrastructure and population even better a bit like the Nox who we know they knew.
This is personal, but I don't necessarily mind the colonies concept. While they would have some infrastructure, a colony typically doesn't have the means to process and refine the materials needed to rebuild without intense investment and time. So while this wasn't perfect, it wouldn't have necessarily been too insane.
That’s fair. I could definitely believe that these colonies might not be completely self sufficient yet.
My head canon was that there might have been survivors but very very small amount (talking 100's at the most) and in all practical purposes they were wiped out
I am reminded of a scene from Firefly...
Jayne, Zoey and Mal are in Badgers den of thieves...
Jayne makes a comment about being stuck up...and then some one says Pretentious.
And Jayne replies..yeah...you think you're better than everyone else. Or something along those lines.
This reminds me of the Tolan.
Tollana already being one of their colonized planets as SG-1 found them by rescuing survivors from their destroyed home world.
To me, the Tollans were never really that interesting except for their technology, which existed in the story solely to showcase how wondrous it was and to keep any of it out of Earth hands. I found Trevell to be haughty and arrogant, while Narim was emotionless and bland. Their final appearance in the episode "Between Two Fires" was just the setting where Tanith revealed that he was taking orders from someone much more powerful (Anubis, of course). To be honest, I wasn't especially broken up about the loss of Tollana, but I did like how it set up the next Big Bad Guy for SG-1 to face and just how insanely powerful he was. It might've evoked a bit more sympathy from me if the Tollans hadn't been so stuffy and flatly monotonous. But this is just my little opinion. There are always others. Great video, though! 😎👍
It strikes me that the Tolen from Stargate are much like the TNG-era Federation from Star Trek:
1) They have a very strict non-intervention policy
2) They are very confident in their own moral superiority. Arrogant, even.
3) They do legitimately mean well, and they do have a legitimate reason for their policies
4) They wear rather silly-looking late-1980s-style clothes, as per TNG
5) They're all atheists, as explicitly stated in their first appearance
6) They don't *appear* to use any form of money (Though this never really comes up)
7) They have a significant technological superiority over most of the other species they come across.
8) They're basically peaceful, only fight if attacked, no death penalty, that sort of thing.
9) kind of naive.
the hook for their first appearance is basically "what's it like for the people who suffer because the Federation won't intervene?"
I specify 'The TNG Era' (TNG-through-voyager) because in the original Trek, 'noninterference' was obviously much more of a sliding scale, and Kirk and Co repeatedly choose to err on the side of compassion rather than law. And there seem to have been no repercussions from this. Whereas in TNG, it's taken far more humorlessly and (IMO) inhumanely.
In the episode "Pretense," Teal'c observes that the Tolen are naive. They haven't fought a war in such a long time that they don't really think strategically, they are relatively easily manipulated by bad actors, and ultimately that's their undoing.
I dunno. Just a passing thought. It's interesting because SG1 - and the Gate-iverse as a whole - has no such compunctions about noninterference. They do discuss it early on, and there is a lot of discussion as to whether or not earth/the USAF has the right to do some of the stuff they do, and on occasion first contact situations do go very, very very badly (Such as anything concerning the planet Tegalus, where they accidentally started a civil war, religious fanatics overthrowing the government, and ultimately a nuclear war), so the show doesn't gloss over the issue. And, in some situations, they advise uncontacted aliens on how to isolate themselves from unwanted contact.
Never really saw the connection till now, but wow that comparison is kind of spot on.
They also built their own stargate rather than use a relic left by the Ancients so there is the possibility that they may have a small minigate in a lab as a prototype much as one was built out of toasters, microwaves and whatever could be ordered online in Samantha's basement except perhaps one that won't burn out after a single use. Then there's the possibility of launching spaceships and phasing them so they could not be shot down, the possibility that there was already Tolan's off world and the possibility of just hiding on the planet and going with asymmetric warfare.
My head cannon on the Tolan. It's that they wouldn't go to humans for help.As we are less technologically advanced, they were, however, being mentored by the Nox, A species who also mysteriously vanished, never to be heard from again, and who was the last species that they have Interacted with? So I believe that when the tolin planet was blown up, they fled to the knox, who then both went into hiding, never to be heard from again
That’s a really cool theory, would explain why the Nox just stop appearing.
There were Tollan colonies mentioned, other planets if I recall. Now these may be tiny, hundreds of people maybe or thousands max. But still, they have people off of the main world so there are survivors, just not enough to make it matter.
And one of the comments I saw in a behind the scenes interview about the Tollan was that while possibly others survived, Narim was one of them… and he was now host of Klorel, whos symbiote never left Tollana. Imagine them apples!
I really need to find these behind the scenes videos. I’ve heard some really interesting stuff about them. Like the Aachen being descents of Ancients.
by the way, fandom has many many errors, i wouldn't depend on that site for the correct info 100% of the time in my experience it's right about 85% of the time, i also remember the episode when some of the Tollan survived, but of course it was just referenced very vaguely, but the show writers never came back to their story ark, which was a real shame.
but my assumption is they found themselves on some isolated planet or perhaps they found out how to integrate with the Ashen, they were very similar people and had technology that almost mirrored their own, and may not know of SG1's role in knowing their secret for being untrustworthy people who created the sterility vaccine.
Do you remember which episode had a reference to Tollan survivors?
@@sg-24
no i don't, it was so long ago, i would really have to go back and watch them the old fashioned way to find that info sadly.
but i feel it was referenced on the same episode or maybe a few episodes after the Tollan were taken out.
I can see wanting to get rid of the Tollan from a story telling narrative, but I'd disagree with using it as an argument for their destruction; lets not forget the Nox, they were a powerful, advanced, and pacifist people too and they are still around, and the Asgardians were disadvantaged greatly when Anubis took the memories of Thor to gain the advantage they gained over the Tollan in the first place yet continued to pull through until S10.
It would be amazing if the surviving colonies had formed a permanent trade and defence agreement with the Tau'ri. Yeah they see them as less advanced but the BC 304s would probably change their mind
I'd imagine the Tollans have survived though not as a nation. Just scattered survivors.
Well, they survived if and only if they write a new story/episode showing their survivors.
But it is true that the existing story allows to have such survivors, without inconsistencies. They don’t need to make timetravel or parallel universe story to make some events un-happen, they just need to find a colony which survived.
That’s fair, though I would say the odds are a lot higher with the knowledge that it’s something tackled before.
It would’ve been cool if the Tauri had got their hands on at least one cannon to backwards engineer and have the Asgard help make it more powerful. Imagine those on the tauri warships and possibly Atlantis as a secondary option to the drones and chew through some wraith hive ships.
That does sound pretty cool. Kind of makes you wonder why they didn’t, especially since I think they did get the designs. Sure they couldn’t replicate it, but with the Asgard core anything is possible.
*SG1 goes back to the planet to find the Tollan survivors, living in caves basically bombarded back to the Stone Age.*
Tollan: "You know, we could really do with some help."
Jack O'Niell: "I'm sorry. We don't help *lesser* people."
As cool and cold a line, I don’t think even Jack would say that.
Hello there, I like this kind of video. I may not be very experienced with the Stargate franchise but I like hearing about in this format and approach nevertheless.
May I present a scenario to you that could spark into a interesting scenario video?
Could a united Starcraft coalition of the Zerg, Protoss, and Terrans defeat a infestation of the Flood that has reached the Gravemind stage of development and if they are able to beat them back and or contain the outbreak what would the aftermaths be? How would some Zerg, Protoss, and Terrans react to the information and secrets they have on the Flood and would they react to some of their kind being mentally tormented by the logic plauge and secrets they could not comprehend? Especially since the Zerg is like a Hivemind would the logic plauge even in a early form affect many of their numbers with insanity for years to come and the trauma it would cause?
Circumstances. A fleet of Terrans and a branch of Zerg that have gone rouge from the Zerg hierarchy find a Forerunner shield world the size of a planet which is a research installation with a database dedicated to studying the Flood with security forces run by a Monitor with a small fleet of a few hundred ships as a final failsafe should the Flood completely breakout of the facility however the local Flood outbreak on the installation was able to form a small Gravemind which was smart enough to evade incineration and significantly reduce some of these security defenses including preventing the activation of the Forerunner fleet.
A group of Protoss having a disturbing institution they sense will eventually arrive to the shield world as well.
The Terrans and rouge Zerg who been fighting each other and the Forerunner security sentinels accidentally break the containment zone of the Flood and the Flood begin spreading out with Pure Forms overwhelming some of the isolated and unprepared Zerg and Terran forces. Gathering their knowledge to the Gravemind as well as understanding where they come from their current mindset and weaponry. The scouting Protoss group arrive to the scene seeing the Flood for the first time and seeing infected Terrans and Zerg mutate into such rotten abomninaitions disturbs them extremely and try to aid the Sentinels, Terrans, and Zerg in trying to exterminate the present Flood threat however shortly after the Flood are able to take many airborn and space flying craft and land boarding parties on some of their ships. A couple ships are taken and escape off world heading for deep space.
The Monitor immediately contacts all parties Terran, Zerg, and Protoss forces to inform them of the danger at once and instructs them to clear the Flood infestation stopping his security protocols from being enacted and that the entire galaxy is in danger and the escaping Flood need to be exterminated. Could they stop the Flood in time before it becomes uncontrollable with the help of the small Forerunner fleet?
This an interesting idea, and I do a lot of Halo and fair about StarCraft. I have considered moving into other franchises someday, and I would consider tackling this one, but as to when I would get to it I can’t say.
@@sg-24
I understand and that is pretty good reason. Such interesting topics takes time to consider and make with fine quality and good standard. This could take place some yesrs after the three way truce between the factions.
On the scenario I think the Zerg would be the worse greatly affected the most despite their incredible reactive adaption capabilities against poisonous substances and gases being faster and more efficient then even the adaption of the Tyranids the Flood are far far worse then all the deadly diseases the Zerg have ever encountered and their infestation potency seems nearly absolute as no cure was ever found for the Flood. The Forerunners and Ancient Humans tried desperately but they never found a outright immunity for Flood infection by the Supercell only ways to make it a inconvenience at best. And to make matters worse the Forerunners tried to revive infected subjects by putting their minds into cloned bodies and it failed because the nature of the Flood's infection also infects the spirit somehow and that clone body turned into a Combat Form with the Flood Supercell. If Zerg lose their leaders to Flood infection can you imagine to chaos and confusion it would bring as a consequence?
The Zerg can try to create and imploy some protective body armor and defensive acid mechanisms to reduce their drones and bases becoming outright combat forms or biomass for the Flood to feed on but a immunity to the Flood is relatively impossible for them to achieve due to the eldritch reality bending nature of the Flood. Zerg forces will be constantly at risk and have constant liabilities due to how they engage in combat which is something the Flood would be all the more welcoming of.
If the Terrans doctors were able to find a cure to Zerg's infestation for their colonists but the Forerunners and Ancient Humanity were unable to for the Flood then the potency of these two's horde kinds methods of infections are astronomically far apart from each other it isn't funny. Not to mention the Flood would outright steal the Zerg's traits for their own purposes.
So the Zerg would be a complete liability to the coalition's efforts of exterminating the Flood with these variables in mind. They would just be feeding the Flood biomass and with the Flood's expotential rate of infecting entire planetary centers this is a very scary prospect.
I kind of want them to still be around, since Stargate doesn't exactly have an abundance of significant factions floating about within its universe as it is, so having them still be around and in a state where they might actually be capable off playing a meaningful role in the future events of the series could prove to be a positive thing. Having them retain some surviving hidden colonies would be one way to do that or perhaps another would be to have them living as galatic nomads on board their interstellar ships.
There still the question of whether or not they possess hyperdrive technology, with the answer to this question being a significant factor in determining how and in what form they might have been able to survive. Still even if their ships don't use hyperdrives there are still plenty of other ways to explain how they might have been able to survive. But yeah in conclusion anything added to help fill in and populate the Stargate universe does appear likely to be a generally positive thing, at least from what i can tell that is.
You know I didn't realize how much I agree with this idea until I read it. Stargates has a very bi-polarity universe. Where really only two factions really matter, and I defiantly prefer the multi polarity setting like we see in Star Trek.
The Tollan. Classic example of the "Smug Alien" Archetype.
Cool, I always assumed they were completely wiped out in the show. I think it does make sense that they have some offworld colonies or outposts but it does bring up the question as to why they wouldn't have contacted anyone after the attack. Especially since in the show Anubis was eventually dealt with, so you would think any occupation on Tollana would have more or less fallen at that point, so anyone left would be able to come out of hiding and seek help.
The only real explanation for the colonies not contacting Earth I can think of is maybe they didn't know about them. We often view other races/cultures in the show as a monolith, but it would probably be a lot more stratified and complex in reality. So maybe only certain high up officials or specific government personnel had any real knowledge about the dealing w/ Earth. And they may have all died. Even the colonies might not have been privy to the information. After all on earth the Stargate is a top secret military project, so anyone using it would be briefed about a lot of what was going on around it. But on Tolan it is just a fancy bus. People could use it to travel around possibly w/o knowing about any of the diplomatic actions taken by the government.
"Ah yes the less advanced..." "We're the same damn race"- Jack O'Neil probably
I think any Tollan survivors would double down on their isolationism. They would find planets to hide on and develop a society that relies more on stealth than weapons tech to defend themselves. RE the stargate - well, even if it was destroyed, the could probably build a new one. Again. The ancient who descended built one from items on ebay. In the final view, it doesn't really matter as, except for removing the snake from Sharra, they were not helpful. Perhaps the Nox aided them in using stealth, as they had developed communications with them. Thanks for the fun video.
Thank you for the comment. Some pipe have theorized that the Tollan went to live with the Nox, which is why we stopped hearing from them too.
I’m not 100% sure the planet Tollana even still exists. The capital, planet, and seemingly only city on the planet, is wiped out, the Go’a’uld open the fire on all of the fault lines, and of course, there was a storeroom of incredibly powerful phase shifting bombs. I haven’t watched the episode in a long time, so I may be a misremembering, but I kind of feel like maybe they sent the phase, shifting bombs to the core of their own planet to wipe it out? I’m probably misremembering that.
In any event, I don’t think they had any colony worlds, Jack clearly says they were wiped out, and regardless of anybody’s view on extended canon, I think, generally speaking, the actual show itself always has to be taken as primary canon, and then anything in the deuterocanon contradicting that is probably Just not true. No offense if anybody is really attached to it. I don’t mean to be insulting. It’s just the way I think.
I think the garbled message at the end of the episode is deliberately garbled, which would have allowed the show to bring the Tolan back if they had a good reason to do so, But assume they are dead if a good reason to re-introduce them never came up.
In other words, I think they are extinct unless the TV show writers decided to bring them back, which clearly they never did before the end of the series.
You know I never consider the phase bomb going into the core. I don’t think that’s what happened. But it an interesting idea.
It makes sense that at least some of the Tollan could have survived the bombardment.
The Tollan did have ships. In the episode “One hundred days”, Col. O’Neill was to be picked up by the Tollan in 6 months by a Tollan ship.
Which is incredibly slow if you think about it, at least compared to some of the other races later in the show.
The Stargate on Tollana is a very flimsy gate and would have been easy to destroy. This was mentioned in the first episode where SG1 visited Tollana.
I may have to re-check that episode b/c I don’t remember them saying their gate was flimsy.
I found it weird the Tollan escape ships didn't seem to have their phase shifting tech so Gau'old weapons fire would pass through them. Anubis might have had weapons that could hit them even shifted, but it wasn't established if so.
That is kind of weird, though maybe if the ship phased everyone would fall out of it?
@@sg-24 maybe. It could also be they just the thought ever occured to them that their ships might be threatened by superior tech ship until it was too late. Maybe Anubis was watching for them retrofitting any ships with that tech to escape.
A new SG TV show could carry on their story quite readily, 2024 marks 19 years since Anubis was taken off the material plane, locked in the infinite battle. More than enough for a small version of their grandeur to have been rebuilt.
I was really hoping that carter and Norim would have hooked up…. Not the ugly Cop haha
I believe any possible survivors are in several different places. Also the in The system Lords and Anubis have been defeated. To go back to tolana would be just rescue and happened probably in the background of other operations.
i beleive that the tollan were in fact beat to submission but not wiped out anubis probily decimated most of the colonies as he found them but some probily built underground or cloaked facilities that survived just they had no means of beating him so went turtle and bunkered in so they could build there own tech up again and re-enter the galactic stage possibly as a powerfull ally of the tauree
Someone did have a similar idea, but they went with the the Tollan going Imperium of Man on everyone.
Good video.
At absolute minimum, the Tollan had an entire planet to hide on. Doesn't matter how many troops Anubis sent in, I have difficulty believing that he'd ever bag ALL of them. Heck, this kind of situation would just be Tuesday for SG-1 or the Tok'Ra.
They referred to their ships being shot down, but a few still might have gotten away. That the Ga'ould shot down the majority, I would attribute to surprise and sheer weight of numbers. Given how how awesome Tollan tech (allegedly) was, I imagine that their ships still had a surprise or two, even when at a severe disadvantage. So, any that chose to "cut and run" would arguably have had a chance.
Bitter experience could have led many surviving Tollan, individually OR collectively, to go Full Isolationist. They already had this superiority complex thing, whereby pretty much everybody else in the Galaxy were primitives. Add to that, their deeply ingrained reluctance to share their knowledge, akin to Star Trek's 'Prime Directive'. Then, they get this harsh lesson of just how treacherous and dangerous these 'primitives' can be, and their much-vaunted technology failed to save them. There are still 'primitives' out there who SAY they are friends, but it's no secret that they also want Tollan tech, so can they really be trusted? Easy to picture how at least some Tollan survivors could end up becoming paranoid, even downright xenophobic.
Always an annoyance to me that , in most SF franchises, super-advanced races tend to be extreme pacifists. I get why - avoiding easy "outs" for the good guys. Babylon 5 actually came closest to avoiding this - various super-races, and it was not all Black and White. But still .....
I loved this comment for many reasons, the top was that line about awesome Tollan tech (allegedly) 😂.
That aside that could be an interesting idea for later. The next big bass being the Tollan survivors who now see the whole galaxy as primates.
@@sg-24 Thank you. Something else that only just occurred to me. Tollan as Ga'ould hosts? Since they are human (or close enough), I'd infer this would be possible.
But what I wonder about is what the Tollan might have done to themselves beforehand. Thinking implants, genetic engineering and whatever else the Tollan might routinely do to protect against disease, parasites and the like - both for their own world(s) and elsewhere. That they might have SOMETHING inbuilt that just happens to also make implantation problematic is unproven, but at least plausible.
@@sg-24 Surely that the Aschen niche in the stargate galaxy.
Sorry for some reason I didn’t see this comment till now. It would be possible since they are decedents from humans from Earth.
I’m not sure how their implants, which we saw they did have, would work with the Goa’uld.
They had enough ships to move their entire population and rebuild every city. It's ridiculous to think they didn't have other colonies and outposts. The problem is, that once the served their purpose in the story line, they needed to disappear. Once they were attacked and harmed by the Goa'uld, their colonies, who would have already known about the threat, would have been on a more warlike standing. The Stargate story line did not want another powerful group of humans. They only worked as long as they were passive. They also knew that the Goa'uld were the enemies of humans. It's reasonable that they could take the path of isolation, but they would have been constantly monitoring the Goa'uld, and would be updating their technology in case the Goa'uld did too. Their society was designed to the fit the story, and it is really one of those sci-fi civilization that would be too stupid to exist as described.
Another major hole in their destruction story, was that they cooperated with Anubis and then because of a minor sabotage, Anubis destroyed them. If Anubis had any intelligence at all, he would have just made them construct new weapons. He would have destroyed them eventually in any case, but he would have waited until they built more weapons and sent one to earth. Anubis was the worst (as in poorly constructed) villain in the entire series. The stories worked because most of the other characters were pretty good.
The Goa'uld attacked them just a year or so earlier, and destroyed almost all of their defense systems. That would have caused a major reevaluation of their supposed invulnerability, and they would have been in the process of taking actions to protect their population. Writers make civilizations monumentally stupid to fit a story.
Having one ion Cannon is useless to cover earth and to be honest...the tolans literally ripped off Earth with that deal.
But...since they had one, they could have installed it on the Prometheus or dedalus, or if not capable to install on a ship transfer it to Atlantis ..., but it was never mentioned again.
You know I might need to look into that. I don’t think they ever gave it to Earth, but offered one.
I gotta ask: what, if anything, did the Tollan actually DO in service to the fight against the Goa'uld? I mean, maybe they could have done some off-screen stuff we never heard about, but is there any specific indication in the show that they ever actually did anything particularly useful...?
Well they….. I mean there was that one time they….. uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh OH! They destroyed at least three mother ships when they entered their orbit.
I had no choice...
hahaha!
There's *ALWAYS* a choice
No. After Goaulds, Replicators and Ori all ruined the milky way galaxy, there is close to ZERO chance any Tolan comunity did survive. Unless they somehow managed to reach the NOX homeworld, right after the Anubis take-over. Maybe had some ships out of their star system at the time of the attack, but almost everything left there was destroyed. Possibly dozens of people managed to run trought the Tolan Stargate, but WHERE is the question.
Like you said the Nox are the best option. Some have been theorizing that if some did make it to the Nox the Nox agree to got into more isolationism.
@@sg-24 I kinda fear, that after repli-Carter led the Replicators in the Milky way, Nox got eaten. I mean - she knew the level of their tech and roughly position of their planet (according the stargate adress to get on their planet). Would explain, why no another Nox spotting was reported...
It's Earth has changed since Atlantis City and Asgard technology was more successful than tollan
The phasing tech was small, hand held, meaning all they would need is to send one bomb with the small device to the power room or even just through the shields of the attacking ship.
They had ships too so they had colonies.
Okay weirdly enough I just read a comment about the phase bombs, but it was about them phasing through the planet and blowing it up.
Moving on I assume all the bombs were destroyed. But even if they weren’t I can kind of see the Tollan not using them.
Edit: okay seeing edited version now. To be honest I don’t have a good reason beyond the Tollan are really bad at military strategy and focused only on evacuation
Sorry I meant to say the hand held devices not the bombs we saw getting blown up. I've edited it to what I meant to say. Like the one Narim uses in their first appearance and triad.
much of the Tollan homeworld locations were filmed at Simon Fraser University, located on Burnaby Mountain, in Vancouver, where the series was shot, primarily the main large courtyard in front of the SFU library building and the Quad, 4 sided building with a small green park inside.
I know a lot of places got shot there, but for me it shall always been Tollan.
@@sg-24 Caprica in BSG, Some Star Trek TNG episodes, and some Andromeda episodes. Does anybody have any others?
The worst outcome would be for them to be captured alive to become hosts.
For the galaxy or them as individuals?
@@sg-24 both
@wpatrickw2012 fair enough.
I think they had colonies but they are probably as different as the u.s. and England or Mexico and Spain. I also like that they are surviving in the ruins of their world. Also they stated in their initial meeting with sg1 after seeing an eagle that all the animals on their world had been killed off. So unless they were bringing them in from somewhere else don't know how they would be hunting.
I do like that idea, the colonies being as different as countries given what we know about them. As for the animal's thing I assume they would have brought some of them to from Tollan to Tollana, as well as Tollana having native wildlife.
Imagine Tolan tech in the hands of rhe Lucian Alliance...
Yeah that is super scary. Though enough I keep coming up with this imagine in my head of them using the phase shift to rob banks
There are in my fanfiction.
Another idea would be Tollan survivors as antagonists. Maybe they blame getting involved with Earth for bringing their homeworld to Anubis' attention?
That is something I thought about when writing the script for this. Maybe we could say the Grace alien ship was a Tollan ship. And they were defending their territory from outsiders.
"Wiped out by the Gould" could be a figure of speech by Jack O'Neill to get the point across that their race underwent catastrophic population decline. Similar to how people referred to the American Chestnut as extinct after the chestnut blight.
I would have thought that the Tollan (not in huge numbers) could have used their phase technology sink into vast underground tunnels under the surface of their world. I would hope that Narum would have lead many of his people to the vast underground caverns. I think once they are able to build some starships (which would be even superior to the Asguard). They would leave what is left of Tollana and maybe even visit Earth to share their tech with SG1.
Some have comment about that, I’m not sure why they didn’t use the phase shift. Maybe it wasn’t available to the general public?
To be honest I don’t think Tollan ships were better than the Asgards. The Asgard regularly traveled between galaxies, while the Tollans seem to take weeks/months to travel between two points in one galaxy. Granted we don’t know the distance between these points, but still.
*The board game said an entire colony survived....so yeah.*
Really?! Do you have a link or anything. Never had a chance to play it.
@sg-24 Yep! There are 3 planets listed under Tollan occupation: Tollan, Tollana, and Pellor. Pellor is labeled as an "outer colony".
I see, I wonder if the board game was made in part with the old RPG books. I’ll have to look into this further. But thank you for letting me know. 👍
@@sg-24 No problem! Pellor has an entry on the Stargate Fandom wiki that references the novels and states that they retrieved over a dozen survivors from Tollana after the Go'uld attack. It also states they were in the "cybernetic age" of technology with an FTL ship and no stargate and that Pellor became the new capital.
In their first appearance, the Tollan are legitimately more intelligent, savvy, capable, and wise than anything Earth could dream of. In later appearances the Tollan are arrogant fools who need to kiss SG-1's feet if they value their lives, and they don't, so they die. Except for the one who has a crush on Sam, but dies anyway. I sense a great difference in the scripts in how to portray alien space-faring species. It's similar to Halo. If the rules of American/Canadian science fiction were carved into Mount Rushmore in 100 foot high letters, with the first rule being "The aliens are _MORE POWERFUL_ than the United States armed forces" within five years Mount Rushmore would be nuked.
I mean the Tollan were always kind of arrogant, or at the very least kind of rude. Also I wouldn’t say that every depiction of aliens in American/Canadian science fiction go out of their way to say the US army is best. Some go out of their way to criticize it.
@sg-24 Let me run down a list of my favourites: Star Wars, nope, the evil Galactic Empire triumphs, Star Trek, the Enterprise/Voyager/Discovery/DS9 have to win, or hit the big reset button, Doctor Who, the British are murdered, and the big reset button doesn't actually bring back the soldiers who die, Farscape, the Australians are aliens, and eventually win because they have one good American from NASA to vouch for them, Babylon 5...Earth is regressed to the Middle Ages by the Elvish Minbari aliens and humans adopting Space Age Lord of the Rings Numenor, Lexx, 98% of it shouldn't even exist, but the 2% that's actual plot the Earth is completely destroyed, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the Earth is destroyed across the entire multiverse because the Vogons really REALLY want that hyperspace motorway bypass built so people using it can get to where they want to go a little faster. Stargate, Halo, Mass Effect, and Independence Day start off with unbeatable aliens, which Stargate, Mass Effect, and Halo knew how to solve--by finding more powerful allies, and uniting the galaxy against the oppressors. Of these Mass Effect actually succeeded in fulfilling the original premise, whilst Stargate and Halo later in the series pull an Independence Day move and leaves America as the ultimate power in the universe--specifically America, although in Stargate for some unfathomable reason, America still has to play politics with the rest of the world, whilst in Halo the rest of the world is wiped out, especially and specifically Sydney, Australia for some reason. It's not so much a common pattern in the science fiction that I watch as really, glaringly obvious when the writers are adrenaline junkies and not actually capable of thinking.
@sg-24 Anyway, it's obvious that I'm going to need to rewatch and/or replay all those series simply to revitalise old memories as soon as I actually get a place that I live in long enough to unpack. I'd like to be able to do the same thing with my life, but the countries and places I lived in are probably very much changed, except for the simple fact they cost too much for me to live there--that has never changed. I say this because my memories of the Tollen are faint, but I think the problem with thinking the Tollen were arrogant is that the SGC had to deal with essentially real-world American politics, or at the very least, fictionalised West Wing, NCIS, and Law & Order style politics. As far as the Tollen were concerned, America could fall under the control of...uh...for example, China, Brazil, Russia, Korea, or the Middle East, at any time...and in fact, the SGC had a particular Senator of chief concern, who got his "friend" elected as President because he misjudged how shrewd, farsighted, and morally upstanding his friend actually was--a lucky break in a string of lucky breaks for the SGC. Now, the Tollen rescued in the first episode by rights, should have been able to stay on Earth, in a technological society, whether that be in Germany, Japan, New York, Belgium, or some other relatively safe place with technological access...such as New Zealand? Attempting to send them to Cuba or the Phillipines, or Somalia, or to live with the last out-of-contact tribe in the Amazon rainforest is...a little bit like astronauts from NASA, or millionaires and billionaires being unable to return to America because somehow new legislation revokes the citizenship of anyone who goes into space. Maybe that's a bad example? What I remember is that in later episodes, the Tollen were written to be irrational, whereas in the first episode, their response was entirely rational to the ridiculous nature of the SGC: aliens can attack in big spaceships and our nukes are as effective as throwing a wet fish at aircraft carrier, yet the Stargate program has to be kept SECRET?
@@3mpt7 I mean with the Galactic Empire it did lose in the end and was succeed by liberal democracy.
I don't have much to say about the other examples, mostly because for a few I have not seen.
As for Halo and Stargate I mean yeah, they do have a big turnaround for the heroes, but a lot of stories do that. And I also wouldn't say, at least for Halo, that specifically America won, because America doesn't exist in Halo. As for in SG yes, the US is the most powerful nation, but they did have to deal with other nations more and more as the shows went one. The Atlantis Expedition was a multi nation one. This like that were indicating that the US was willing to start sharing more power. And at least as far as I can tell this was never done with the intention of saying the US was better than anyone else.
As for the rest I do hope you find a place to live long term soon. I'm kind in a similar boat right now and I'm hoping that in the next few months or so that will change.
As for the rest I do recall of Tollan having some legit rational, especially when it came to distrusting the government, but they did always come across as slight arrogant. For example, when Danile talks to the Tollan about the Nox he points out that the Nox call them "Young" while the Tollan call them "Primitive". Which even points out is a lot nicer thing to say.
@sg-24 Natasi Daala, Imperial Warlord, succeeded Borsk Feylya and Princess Leia as Chief of State in Star Wars. I can assure you that the Dark Side effectively won in both the Del Rey and Dark Horse saga, and the later Rey Disney saga, due to the disgrace and death of the heroes seen in A New Hope. The only timeline in which the heroes didn't lose was the Bantam books era, which some people were bored with, and which had ended some time before the Twin Towers disaster--as Star by Star was published around the same time, and the Clone Wars era was taking off. Sorry, I know you like the RPG sourcebook Tollan's fate, and I'm not arguing that they didn't deserve it, given their consistent depiction across everything aside from their first appearance. Star Wars in the Bantam, and pre-Disney Marvel comics era had the pre-airport security American optimism about the future, even with the Death Star. Likewise, in the first Tollan appearance, I see a lot of influence from the Steven Spielberg E.T film, Tolkien Elves and gods, 2001 A Space Odyssey, Christian angels, and other instances in which the Tollan have every right to say what they're saying about humanity. BUT in ALL later depictions, they're another nuisance government with some neat near future or little known at the time technology in their smart homes. I just find it frustrating that the writers wasted them, like the Furlings, the Nox, the Asgard, the Fire and Water guy, the Tokra, the System Lords, and even the Ancients. When you only have half a dozen advanced civilizations in the galaxy, the loss of one is keenly felt. It's not like Earth, where half a dozen countries could vanish, and most of us wouldn't notice until 50 years later when looking at an updated globe.
If there are survivors, especially on a colony world, they might have become even more isolationist than before. They might have moved again to a place where even Anubis couldn't find them.
From a planet without a sun in interstellar space to constructing a hollow world between galaxies in a place where it is unlikely that they would be found. Though the whole affair might have invigorated their scientific interests gearing towards new ways to hide and defend themselves.
They might turn out like the Vanir, the Asgard of the Pegasus galaxy. Which could have gotten interesting if either were followed up.
That is an interesting comparison.
I think some Tollans immigrated to Earth
Oh because the one actor got reused?
Tolen can shift themselves out of phase and then can't be hurt
You know people have mentioned that. Not sure why the never did that.
I have always found it ludicrous when you have supposedly advanced races claiming that they cannot do anything with something so "primitive." In reality what that usually means to me is that the character in question isn't as intelligent and learned as they portray.
I'm going to have to rewatch this this series, because I'm wondering how Tollan sent a message to the SGC without a Stargate.
I believe they did it with a satellite.
@16:18 the Goa'uld blast is taking out the Starbucks on the SFU campus. Wonder if that is a Battlestar Galactica Easter egg…oh, the conspiracies.😅
Fun thing I noticed while eating this, if you look in the background on the right hand side. While everyone else is running around like the world is going to end, there just some guy walking around. I’m sure that’s just a student who got caught in the shot.
I once wrote a fanfiction with the Tolan survivor's.
May I ask what happened?
I wonder on a tech level, I wonder how close the tollan were to the ancients.
Hard to say. They were able to produce tech that would be just as advanced as Ancients (such as ion cannons). But ship wise they seemed to be far behind what Ancients had.
@@sg-24 This is true. Although there was a big time gap between Earth finding Tolans and seeing their tech and not understanding how it works, and Earth finding any tech from the ancients, it did seem like SGC couldn't comprehend how the Tollan tech seemed to work at all but never got that same level of questions about ancient tech. Could be they had a better understanding at the time they had found ancient tech, or maybe the tollans have a totally different way of doing tech than earthlings or ancients and this could limit things like advances in space travel.
@armedbobery4879 I’m tempted to say the later. I remember Sam saying that Tollan tech had no mechanical moving parts. I’m sure with time they could have understood it, but it could be that it was different enough that it led to some advancements and some delays.
Maybe there isn't an easy way for them to get from their other colonies to earth. We don't know much about them so maybe they are terraformed worlds that don't have a star gate on them preventing any real movement of the survivors to regroup with Earth.
There is some lore on them that I didn’t add for this video (later one planned) but if I recall these colonies were originally cut off. So I don’t think they had stargates.
once they had star ships they should have gone back to the planets they got cut off from like the one that was underground or the one where they were put in little cages
Funny enough in the new RPG book the people who were stuck underground came back.
It would be hilarious if a Tau'ri BC-304 ship found a Tollan colony and refused to help them with resources since it's "wrong" to help lesser advanced races with more advanced technology
😂
like so many before them, their arrogance became their downfall.
2:18 Savage reply from Sam here. "Yes you did, you could have died."
I mean, to be fair to Sam there are plenty of ways around the situation.
Perhaps Anubis brought a new stargate to Tollana.
Probably, makes sense given how the Goa’uld love to use those things. Not that I blame them.
Any survivors would have fled to the Nox homeworld.
Now the Tollan ships were commented about many times that they were slower than Goa’uld or Tok’ra vessels. Window of Opportunity, I think.
I don’t know if it was said they were slower, but just as a comparison they were.
@@sg-24 I just remember a comment by Daniel that the Tollan would be able to have a ship “swing by” wherever it was “sometime in the next year”. I can’t remember the episode
@michaelkotcher5491 I know the episode, the one we’re Jack gets stuck on a planet, but I can’t remember the name either.
Any new goauld hosts from those technologically gifted survivors?
Officially no, but someone else in comments did point that out and how horrifying it would be.
The 1 thing i learn from the stargate universe is this. Being a pacifist, is like being a piece of meat for a hungry cage predator. Its only a matter of time
Kinda the same in Star Trek, but not AS bad
Why couldn't some of them use there phase/fase tech, so that the bombs had noneffect on them?
Phase through a mountain where a cave is to hid from the attack. Something at least.
Maybe some did, which is where some of the survivors come from. As for why more didn’t I’m not sure. Though I am wondering if that tech was just something not available to the wider public
Ok...what do i think...
Well, after watching all of your video, i think...
You covered it all and i have nothing to say except this silly comment in lieu of it.
Well done my good sir.
Chapeau...Chapeau.
You had me in the first half.
Do you have any evidence or sources that is considered cannon in the franchise?
I supposed that depends on what you count as canon. For the old RPGs most agree no. Worlds was supposed to be. Everyone was behind the idea, even the writers of the show, but it fell off when the studio closed. As for the new one it’s in a weird place. Again a lot of people do t consider stuff outside the shows as canon, but MGM stepped in to review the book before it was releases, giving their approval. If you consider none of that stuff canon then no.
No matter how arrogant Tollan's were why wouldn't they have space ships?
I mean they did, just not good ones
Random Gul Dukat got me.
I wish I could say that was mine, but the joke belongs to another channel. Matt Mickely I believe.
With the gate destroyed, how did they communicate?
I think they said it was from either a Tollan or Tok’Ra satellite.
200th like! Woot!
Also, aren’t Ion cannons used for disabling ships, not destroying them?
I always found that weird
Oh no they blow them out of the sky. It’s actually kind of weird now that you bring up the idea of disabling them as why the Tollan never did that.
@@sg-24 nah, what I ment was, in a lot of other sci-fi, an Ion cannon basically acts like an EMP. (Like the big cannon in Empire Strikes Back)
@jonwalker8945 oh I see. Yeah kind of weird, but maybe it was just them using a fancy science like name.
never liked that story tbh.
nothing suggests the ancients could make shields that just make you immune to weaponsfire.
yet anubis can, but like only this one weapon.
If they ever reboot the Stargate series again, this would be a good story to explores an episode. That and the Furlings…
It always comes back to the Furlings. I’m actually working a on video about them now.
The Role Play Books are fan fiction not cannon. They are fan cannon but not actual cannon.
See I’m not so convinced. And the reason I say that is because I’m the most recent one MGM stepped in to review it before it got published. And that one seemed to try and clean up slot of the inconsistencies between the show and old RPGs.
The Thollans ARE humans so without access to their civilization, they are just humans. If they cannot propregate their culture, they are gone. They would not be Thollands anymore.
Lets say we colonised mars it has a population of a few thousand it would take them decay's at least and centres at most to develop all the infostructure they need to become self sufficient on mars, about the Tollan colonies without their new home world may not have been able to sustain themselves so they could have been abandoned to join more developed civilisation's
I do like that idea as an explanation for what happened to them.
Well, as far as the RPG books are concerned they aren't cannon to the show, what we see from the show is that it considers them completely destroyed. I also don't think Anubis used their tech as it would have been useful on multible occasions, probably because he sees ancient tech as being superior. He could also just use them as hist or pull info from their minds if he needed too. But I recall watching a scifi short interview thing which stated that the producers did think there were Tolan survirors or worlds, probably where the books got the idea from, and at that time hadn't done anything with the idea. Considering Prometheus was not exactly reliable at the time so the only ships they had access to were Tokra and were or would be on the mend around this time, I don't think there was a way to write this in. But I think the bunker idea is what would happen. After all, it wasn't until the Tolan started to involve itself in interstellar politics more that their new homeworld was destroyed, so they may have chosen to remain in isolation and hidden. But I would have liked to see Tolan survivors idea explored on screen, especially as Earth got more reliable ships.
That’s really interesting that there was an interview in which they said that.
@sg-24 Yes, it was in one of those behind the scene things which SciFi channel used to do. I was even about to add that, the idea stayed alive until Narim's actor was cast as Wier's boyfriend so they assumed that they were going to leave them extinct. However they did think they could bring them back in another form in season 9 or 10, but by that time ScFi's parent company NBC Universal was looking for cuts, and so SG-1 was cancled.
I did see some people comment about that. If they did bring the Tollan and Narim back how would that work with Weir boyfriend.
What I’d say is they left their planet by way of the stargate and ship to their nearest colonies and the colonies simply went dark in order to avoid the enemy they may have even contacted the nox for some assistance in leaving or use of their stealth technology . As for the colonists size it was never fleshed out so it could be under 10k or over either way it made sense to go dark bury their local gate till a predetermined time then reestablish connections with the other colonies. As for the home planet some survivors probably hide deep in the mountains and underground shelters considering they could phase through solid objects they could have easily hide deep enough that ring technology could penetrate. plus the enemy didn’t retain the shield technology for long after the sgc destroyed them so they could have built defenses on the colonies and made ships strong enough to defeat the gauld and took the home world back. Just saying they were so smart that they were dumb and helpless I don’t think fits.push anyone to survive and their way of thinking changes to survival mode and they will adapt
Their hiding and rebuilding
Will try to watch it later when i have a minute but i always thought it would have been a great idea to have the surviving tollan join the tokra to make them create a new blended identity. Make two united and feel like they could actually become an actual threat to the gould if only as a power that could rival one or two mid system lords.
That is a really interesting idea. A lot of people have been going for a Tollan the new villains angle, but I think it makes more sense for them to team up with old allies.
@@sg-24thank you for the reply. I thought it would have given a feeling of creating a new alliance council with the "tolkera" and the free Jaffa nation making a new alliance. All they need was the two factions to become one and have the tokra queen or new queen take her place to keep their numbers up. I never understood otherwise how the tokra could have such a major city after the end of the movie. ive always figured there were at this point being only a few hundred to a couple of thousand since they can't easily replace their numbers. Having willing hosts and a queen would fix that for me in my mind at least.
@seanfarrell6386 I do like this idea. But I’m iffy on the new queen thing. I think the issue for the Tok’Ra was that they had no queen.
@@sg-24 but wouldn't that mean they would eventually go extinct without one or do they have another method of reproduction?
@seanfarrell6386 right and if I remember why that’s why they pulled out of the alliance with Earth and the Jaffa. They couldn’t afford to replace any losses. There actually a book that deals with this subject, invoking the Tok’Ra time traveling to find a queen.