naar these are really bad swords for the most part.. theyer junk.. you cant cut anything and cant stab anything.. there WAS good ones but the bulk of them are useless like many small swords too.. they were fashion items more than anything else. at the time.. 18th century there was probably lots of solid serviceable ones.. but most of the ones that survive are rubbish.. where as all antique scottish broad swords or English back swords are excellent lethal weapons.. which tells you most spadroons were made as fashion items . vs weapons. a good spadroon would be a comfortable all round weapon to use and carry but there is just few examples to be seen
Sometimes, that talk is for good reason. The modern military wouldn't be using the weaponry it has today if not for soldiers' grumblings, finally reaching weapon designers and politicians' ears. So, I'm sure we could step back in time and find some Greek hoplite or Roman legionary who butched about the quality of their spear or how their gladius broke in their last fight.....and equally find some spear maker or sword maker who a got a boot to their ass and began turning out better designed or fabricated weapons.
I watched this in total last night and BRAVO 🙌 Bravo 👏!!! Very well done . I love the examples . And explanations . This video put it back into perspective for me why I even got into Collecting in the first place .. I started because I am first and foremost an X Infantryman if ever an X .. The first sword I ever collected was a French 45 , Then a 45/55 And Then a French 1821 Infantry officers sword . That is when my journey went down the sabre rabbit hole ... I don't even have a proper combat spadroon 😮. I do have the old American dress sword that is a spadroon but in my mind a spadroon really needs to be able to hold it's own against at least a hanger sword .. The one I have will not ... I am definitely on the hunt for a Hardy 1796
I can't believe I watched 1h of someone talking about spadroon... But was well worth it! You put up your case fantastically and was actually entertaining! thank you!
@@junichiroyamashita Heavy cavalry dismounted service spadroon, also early spadroons from Donald Mcbanes era that don't have knuckle guards. French thrusting spadroons from the 1800's with rigid blades. Anything except the 1796 British pattern spadroon maybe.
Fantastic stuff Nick! Congratulations on an excellent documentary. It is jam packed with quality facts and information and you really are spear heading the spadroon enlightenment! Thank you for highlighting and educating us all with your passion for such a weapon. You make some excellent points. Keep up the great work!! 👍🏻😊
Bravo good sir, bravo.. I've learned more about the Spadroon design and how it evolved from the shearing to the back-sword designs into my great grandfathers model of 1840 US N.C.O. sword than I could have ever hoped for. I find the weight and feel of his sword to be very agile and nibble in the tip movement and yet still feels as if it would be a good cutter by flicking the wrist.
What you have to consider when examining surviving examples is that better quality swords have a better chance of surviving. It might skew the statistics slightly.
Whilst that is true, a great number of officers swords will never have seen action, so I don't think the effect is that great. Plenty of poor quality examples have survived simply because they didn't see any use. On the flip side, better quality swords may have seen more action, having been bought under the knowledge that the user was more likely to have to use it. This could have led to the loss of more of the better quality examples, hard to say.
In your older spadroon video (which I believe was made before you got a training sword styled after one), I remember being confused as to why the 1786 pattern seemed to be well received despite having the same blade regulation as the "infamous" 1796 pattern. That the spadroon isn't an inherently terrible weapon, and that the examples used to highlight how "bad" the spadroon was were more of an exception than the norm makes a lot more sense than my misinterpretation of that older video.
Thanks! The spadroon/sheering sword evolved from the walloon and mortuary swords of the early-mid 17th century as I mentioned in the video. The problem with the term Walloon sword is it is quite a modern one, and yet it is still useful despite the problems associated. Light bladed examples of the walloon type could well be considered spadroons. Some sherring swords/spadroons certainly did have thumb rings, just rarely in the UK. Walloon hilts are normally found with larger blades and intended for cavalry use. When they are more robust than a spadroon its not because they are a more robust sort of sort, but because they are a cavalry sword. Swords with spadroon type hilts but heavier broadsword blades were common with cavalry for example. So really, the walloon sword would likely have been considered a sheering sword/spadroon so long as it didn't have a heavy blade intended for cavalry use. A nice cross over for this is the Swedish m1685, a mass produced sheering sword/spadroon for the infantry, that follows the overall format of the Walloon.
26:37 So could we say the spadroon is the sidesword of the 18th century? From your description the only difference seems to be the double shell instead of a cross-guard.
Regarding the 1796 Heavy Cavalry Dress/Dismounted Service spadroon...was it always double edged or did it also come in single edged variants? I've seen a bunch of double edged ones, but I have just seen a Runkel with the Heavy Cavalry Dress hilt, but a single edged blade more liek the 1796 Infantry Officers Spadroon.
They can have either and done other blades too. The double edged with narrow fuller is the most typical, but there are still a number with the typical infantry style single edge and deep fuller. Some examples also use blades sourced elsewhere, old family blades for example.
FOr synthetic Black Fencer make a great one. For steel, I would have to say wait and see, Kraken Swords are good but not currently in produciton, hopefully returning soon. BlackFencer have just made their first custom and a standard model is on the cards but not ready yet. Kvetun have finally made prototypes to spec after many attempts and a pair are in the mail to us now, arriving in about two weeks. I also have a custom coming from Armourclass after a long wait. All aof these will appear on the channel as and when possible.
If i were an Officer back then i may take a thicker Fantasie Non Regulation triangular Smallsword with a steel Boattail Shell Guard over a Spadroon. Go all the way. Full penetration. And there are ways to fight opponent's using a bayonet with a Smallsword. I do own an antique 1796 Officers Single Edge Spadroon and it is nice. Still sharp and fairly rigid. Has a nice Boatail Shell Guard. I also have antique Smallswords. That's the ultimate in rigidity. I can appreciate the Spadroon for what it is if it's well made. But it isn't as cut focused as a Hanger nor as rigid in thrusting like a Smallsword. Thought its a middle ground sword. A compromise design. I do love the BoatShell Guard on my 1800-30 antique Spadroon(16 oz)I give the Spadroon that on protection with the Boatail Shell Guard.
I would like to point out by the end of the 19th century the British finally adopted a strait blade like a spadroon over a curved blade as its penultimate sword.
Try the 1840 NCO Spadroon by Windlass and sold by Therion Arms. Not bad for $170 with a scabbard. The point is really good . Though the cutting edge does need a service sharpen. As it's not sharp at all on the edge. It is single edged.
Not really sadly. The wallhanger replicas handle nothing like real spadroons and the few HEMA options are not really available right now. Armourclass will make you good custom ones though for about £300
Most of them are cavalry swords, so its not comparing like for like. Though many walloon and shearing swords/spadroons of the late 17th century are identical in function. The shearing swords and spadroons I am generally talking about in this video are merely the infantry versions of many of the walloon examples you are likely thinking of. Infantry and cavalry swords existed for a reason, they each have their strengths and weaknesses, and are suited to particular applications.
My biggest problem is really just esthetics I think the shell guard and the grip are really ugly and the fact that it’s visually really close to the small sword wich I also hate both because of the name and the way it looks also doesn’t help.
Well there ar elots of different hilt types found on spadroons, not just the double shell. It's assocation with the smallsword is also way overblown. When you look into the early 18th and 17th century swords you will see double shells appearing on all manner of swords, from broadswords, backswords, hangers, cutlasses etc. The spadroon and smallsword developed alongside one another and double shells were just a common form of hilt. Usually the people who dislike double shells are looking at them from more a 19th century perspective, but then it's all personal taste as well. Likewise spadroons can have the same grips as 19th century sabres.
Try looking at the French 1882 Préval Sword. That has a French Sabre hilt with a Smallsword blade on it. Created by Colonel Claude Antoine Préval. Definitely a point centric sword.
My main complaint is the brass hilt. If it were steel, I still wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't hate it. I _despise_ brass knucklebows. It's just a bar, there's no martial reason to have it in an inferior material.
That is not at all unique to spadroons though. Many sabres of the era used brass knucklebows. Hangers were commonly cast brass. The vast majority of British infanry sabres in the 19th century used brass. The first Scottish regulation basket hilt was as well. The reality is, brass is plenty strong enough for most uses. I've used brass guards on sparring swords, and they can take a beating. Plenty enough to last a few battles, which is all that is needed. I used a cavalry weight stirrup hilt sabre for about 6 months of heavy use before that finally gave way, and that is repeated hard sparring over a prolonged period.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing I don't disagree with any of that. But there's a huge difference between a cast stirrup hilt or a Scottish basket, and that dainty little knucklebow, barely a few milimeters in diameter in places. A lot of originals have them broken, for good reason.
It's not that thin, and very few originals have them broken, no more so than sabre guards in the hundreds I've seen. The stirrup hilt training sabre I mentioned was no thicker than the knucklebow on my original spadroons. It withstood massive damage before failing.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Hm, maybe I confused broken-off shells and broken knucklebows, I don't know. Brass chemical composition plays a big part in the durability too...Damnit Nick, stop winning me over!
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Holy crap dude, you made a 51 min. video on the spadroon!
Props to you, mate!
MUCH better than a 51 minute video on spittoons!
@@HobieH3 Indeed!
There is a good point in that Soldiers always talk bad about their equipment. To this day they'll complain about the stuff they're issued.
naar these are really bad swords for the most part.. theyer junk.. you cant cut anything and cant stab anything.. there WAS good ones but the bulk of them are useless like many small swords too.. they were fashion items more than anything else. at the time.. 18th century there was probably lots of solid serviceable ones.. but most of the ones that survive are rubbish.. where as all antique scottish broad swords or English back swords are excellent lethal weapons.. which tells you most spadroons were made as fashion items . vs weapons. a good spadroon would be a comfortable all round weapon to use and carry but there is just few examples to be seen
Sometimes, that talk is for good reason.
The modern military wouldn't be using the weaponry it has today if not for soldiers' grumblings, finally reaching weapon designers and politicians' ears.
So, I'm sure we could step back in time and find some Greek hoplite or Roman legionary who butched about the quality of their spear or how their gladius broke in their last fight.....and equally find some spear maker or sword maker who a got a boot to their ass and began turning out better designed or fabricated weapons.
"meme-worthy" is definitely accurate.
😜
I watched this in total last night and BRAVO 🙌 Bravo 👏!!!
Very well done . I love the examples . And explanations . This video put it back into perspective for me why I even got into Collecting in the first place ..
I started because I am first and foremost an X Infantryman if ever an X .. The first sword I ever collected was a French 45 , Then a 45/55 And Then a French 1821 Infantry officers sword . That is when my journey went down the sabre rabbit hole ...
I don't even have a proper combat spadroon 😮. I do have the old American dress sword that is a spadroon but in my mind a spadroon really needs to be able to hold it's own against at least a hanger sword .. The one I have will not ...
I am definitely on the hunt for a Hardy 1796
This got to be the best Spadroon video ever made!
I can't believe I watched 1h of someone talking about spadroon... But was well worth it! You put up your case fantastically and was actually entertaining!
thank you!
Giving spadroons a hard time online has become a running meme at this point, some models of spadroon are actually really good swords.
Londinium Armoury viola of weapons.
Which ones are good?
@@junichiroyamashita Heavy cavalry dismounted service spadroon, also early spadroons from Donald Mcbanes era that don't have knuckle guards. French thrusting spadroons from the 1800's with rigid blades. Anything except the 1796 British pattern spadroon maybe.
@@londiniumarmoury7037 and the french Epee du soldat?
@@junichiroyamashita Yeah they seem fine to me, just basically a broadsword with a lighter hilt.
Fantastic stuff Nick! Congratulations on an excellent documentary. It is jam packed with quality facts and information and you really are spear heading the spadroon enlightenment! Thank you for highlighting and educating us all with your passion for such a weapon. You make some excellent points. Keep up the great work!! 👍🏻😊
Just wanted to say, this was genuinely fascinating and cleared up all my questions about the spadroon. Thank you.
Bravo good sir, bravo.. I've learned more about the Spadroon design and how it evolved from the shearing to the back-sword designs into my great grandfathers model of 1840 US N.C.O. sword than I could have ever hoped for. I find the weight and feel of his sword to be very agile and nibble in the tip movement and yet still feels as if it would be a good cutter by flicking the wrist.
What is the best resource for learning spadroon techniques?
if your starting out? Roworth
Enjoyed this very much. Thankyou.
Honestly, the spadroon seems more like a short rapier than the small sword, in most cases.
What you have to consider when examining surviving examples is that better quality swords have a better chance of surviving. It might skew the statistics slightly.
Whilst that is true, a great number of officers swords will never have seen action, so I don't think the effect is that great. Plenty of poor quality examples have survived simply because they didn't see any use. On the flip side, better quality swords may have seen more action, having been bought under the knowledge that the user was more likely to have to use it. This could have led to the loss of more of the better quality examples, hard to say.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Good point.
In your older spadroon video (which I believe was made before you got a training sword styled after one), I remember being confused as to why the 1786 pattern seemed to be well received despite having the same blade regulation as the "infamous" 1796 pattern. That the spadroon isn't an inherently terrible weapon, and that the examples used to highlight how "bad" the spadroon was were more of an exception than the norm makes a lot more sense than my misinterpretation of that older video.
love this long video content
In the famous movie duel in "Rob Roy", I always had the opinion that Roth's character was using a spadroon rather than smallsword or rapier.
Well done !! Thank You!
Hey, awesome video. Wondering, where does the Walloon sword fit in? A robust early spadroon with a thumb ring?
Thanks! The spadroon/sheering sword evolved from the walloon and mortuary swords of the early-mid 17th century as I mentioned in the video. The problem with the term Walloon sword is it is quite a modern one, and yet it is still useful despite the problems associated. Light bladed examples of the walloon type could well be considered spadroons. Some sherring swords/spadroons certainly did have thumb rings, just rarely in the UK.
Walloon hilts are normally found with larger blades and intended for cavalry use. When they are more robust than a spadroon its not because they are a more robust sort of sort, but because they are a cavalry sword. Swords with spadroon type hilts but heavier broadsword blades were common with cavalry for example. So really, the walloon sword would likely have been considered a sheering sword/spadroon so long as it didn't have a heavy blade intended for cavalry use. A nice cross over for this is the Swedish m1685, a mass produced sheering sword/spadroon for the infantry, that follows the overall format of the Walloon.
Academy of Historical Fencing
Thank you for the informative response. Cheers.
26:37 So could we say the spadroon is the sidesword of the 18th century? From your description the only difference seems to be the double shell instead of a cross-guard.
I agree and claim the reverse, especially Meyer’s sword.
Yes I would.
Well argued. I'm convinced, but then i liked spadroons already.
Regarding the 1796 Heavy Cavalry Dress/Dismounted Service spadroon...was it always double edged or did it also come in single edged variants? I've seen a bunch of double edged ones, but I have just seen a Runkel with the Heavy Cavalry Dress hilt, but a single edged blade more liek the 1796 Infantry Officers Spadroon.
They can have either and done other blades too. The double edged with narrow fuller is the most typical, but there are still a number with the typical infantry style single edge and deep fuller. Some examples also use blades sourced elsewhere, old family blades for example.
TY for that. I've purchased it...prolly overpaid, but when you covet, you covet@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing
Hi Nick! What Spadroon would you recommend for training HEMA? Is there a good beginners model?
FOr synthetic Black Fencer make a great one. For steel, I would have to say wait and see, Kraken Swords are good but not currently in produciton, hopefully returning soon. BlackFencer have just made their first custom and a standard model is on the cards but not ready yet. Kvetun have finally made prototypes to spec after many attempts and a pair are in the mail to us now, arriving in about two weeks. I also have a custom coming from Armourclass after a long wait. All aof these will appear on the channel as and when possible.
The spadroon that’s 43:20 into the video. What’s the exact model and or would you sell it?
If i were an Officer back then i may take a thicker Fantasie Non Regulation triangular Smallsword with a steel Boattail Shell Guard over a Spadroon.
Go all the way. Full penetration. And there are ways to fight opponent's using a bayonet with a Smallsword.
I do own an antique 1796 Officers Single Edge Spadroon and it is nice. Still sharp and fairly rigid. Has a nice Boatail Shell Guard.
I also have antique Smallswords. That's the ultimate in rigidity.
I can appreciate the Spadroon for what it is if it's well made. But it isn't as cut focused as a Hanger nor as rigid in thrusting like a Smallsword. Thought its a middle ground sword. A compromise design.
I do love the BoatShell Guard on my 1800-30 antique Spadroon(16 oz)I give the Spadroon that on protection with the Boatail Shell Guard.
#bestsword
Well, I'm convinced.
There is no master of all weapons
There are some good candidates for that title. The best I can think of is the thermonuclear bomb.
I would like to point out by the end of the 19th century the British finally adopted a strait blade like a spadroon over a curved blade as its penultimate sword.
Yes they did, the 1892 blade used on the 1892/95 and 97 pattern which is still current. Though it was still a hugely controversial issue at that time.
The debate between straight swords and curved swords was settled by the machine gun in 1914.
are there any current production spadroons of reasonable quality that you would recommend?
Try the 1840 NCO Spadroon by Windlass and sold by Therion Arms. Not bad for $170 with a scabbard.
The point is really good . Though the cutting edge does need a service sharpen. As it's not sharp at all on the edge. It is single edged.
Not really sadly. The wallhanger replicas handle nothing like real spadroons and the few HEMA options are not really available right now. Armourclass will make you good custom ones though for about £300
The infantry NCO it was actually not a first but secondary weapon in case they didn't have a colt just fyi "the more you know"
There is only one master of all weapons.
His name is Nick Tomas.
If someone left their sword at home, taking a dagger to war instead. It means their primary weapon was a firearm.
I'd take one of those walloon-hilted cav-swords of the 17th cent. over it any day.
Most of them are cavalry swords, so its not comparing like for like. Though many walloon and shearing swords/spadroons of the late 17th century are identical in function. The shearing swords and spadroons I am generally talking about in this video are merely the infantry versions of many of the walloon examples you are likely thinking of. Infantry and cavalry swords existed for a reason, they each have their strengths and weaknesses, and are suited to particular applications.
Begins at 16:39
You said "context". I think you owe Matt Easton a nickel.
My biggest problem is really just esthetics I think the shell guard and the grip are really ugly and the fact that it’s visually really close to the small sword wich I also hate both because of the name and the way it looks also doesn’t help.
Well there ar elots of different hilt types found on spadroons, not just the double shell. It's assocation with the smallsword is also way overblown. When you look into the early 18th and 17th century swords you will see double shells appearing on all manner of swords, from broadswords, backswords, hangers, cutlasses etc. The spadroon and smallsword developed alongside one another and double shells were just a common form of hilt. Usually the people who dislike double shells are looking at them from more a 19th century perspective, but then it's all personal taste as well. Likewise spadroons can have the same grips as 19th century sabres.
Try looking at the French 1882 Préval Sword.
That has a French Sabre hilt with a Smallsword blade on it.
Created by Colonel Claude Antoine Préval.
Definitely a point centric sword.
But....its not a katana....
My main complaint is the brass hilt. If it were steel, I still wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't hate it. I _despise_ brass knucklebows. It's just a bar, there's no martial reason to have it in an inferior material.
That is not at all unique to spadroons though. Many sabres of the era used brass knucklebows. Hangers were commonly cast brass. The vast majority of British infanry sabres in the 19th century used brass. The first Scottish regulation basket hilt was as well. The reality is, brass is plenty strong enough for most uses. I've used brass guards on sparring swords, and they can take a beating. Plenty enough to last a few battles, which is all that is needed. I used a cavalry weight stirrup hilt sabre for about 6 months of heavy use before that finally gave way, and that is repeated hard sparring over a prolonged period.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing I don't disagree with any of that. But there's a huge difference between a cast stirrup hilt or a Scottish basket, and that dainty little knucklebow, barely a few milimeters in diameter in places. A lot of originals have them broken, for good reason.
It's not that thin, and very few originals have them broken, no more so than sabre guards in the hundreds I've seen. The stirrup hilt training sabre I mentioned was no thicker than the knucklebow on my original spadroons. It withstood massive damage before failing.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Hm, maybe I confused broken-off shells and broken knucklebows, I don't know. Brass chemical composition plays a big part in the durability too...Damnit Nick, stop winning me over!
Nick I don't wanted sound rough on facebook. My apologies. And thanks for this video, I have an spadroon on my sights to buy. :-)
Spadroon: the katana of the West
51 minutes on the Sadroon is longer than it takes to say "piece of crap" for sure :)
If that were true, it would be a short video.