Alex, you need to contact a boat builder who specializes in fibreglass hulls. They can help you with the through laminate connections, and also they may have some suggestions on proper core support materials. A friend of mine built a small sail skiff out of foam core craft board, fibreglass poly resin and a mix of glass mat, and carbon mat. He built the main form out of the foam core and sandwiched it with the carbon mat on the exterior and the glass mat on the interior. When it was done and fully cured 3 of us could stand inside it and it barely flexed.
Whilst glass won't be a component for weight's sake, an investigation into through laminate connections will be a good idea, and I have a network of composite pro friends. The cores here are clearly top spec for their density.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals you should do some tests with S-glass fiber. Compared to carbon fiber in a hand lay up it is usually the same weight to strength. But you get the impact properties of the glass.
I've done a few tests with S glass. Good stuff, but your resin ratio would need to be crazily lean to overcome the extra density and therefore weight per unit stiffness. Also, whilst certainly stretchier than carbon, it's not in the same realm as diolen or innegra.
Just found your channel, very cool stuff. I always wanted an old lifeboat. I'll have to set aside sometime and start watching those videos. Working in a carbon fiber boat shop I wish I could offer some advice but I'm more on the electrical side of things.
SAFETY GLASSES!!! Not optional! When you force composite laminates to their failure point, there’s a substancial risk of fiber/matrix projections - typically small pointy shards. I do talk from experience, and I mean the painful kind… Despite the safety issue, great video!
@@emanggitulah4319 That's true! Although I don't see it as critical, in this particular situation (a handful of experiments on a [apparently] well ventilated area...) as eye protection - the potential of an accident with catastrophic (often irreversible) consequences is something to bear in mind while dealing with high velocity projectiles.
You're probably right. If I'm to be horrifically maimed, I'd prefer it to be in a more glamorous and heroic context. That said, when my grinding disc exploded, my eyes were protected and I ended up with a large scar on my stomach.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals FYI, picking shards out of you eye hurts way more than unscrewing your finger from a wall. Plus, you aren't kind of blind in one eye for a couple of days and no medical professional is needed for the finger. It's a risk vs reward thing. 😎
13:25 Can’t really tell from the video but I would expect that foam split closer to the top sheet. Manly because that’s where it was least supported due to the bad compressive strength of carbon fibre. Interestingly this suggests that the foam is not compressible enough to follow the movement of the carbon fibres. It probably starts to shred it self when the parts bonded to the fibre compressed more then foam could handle. If the failure was that the foam could not stretch as much as the carbon fibres of the bottom plate the foam would probably split in stripes that go across the board. I would keep an eye on how the property’s of the foam change when you laminate it curved and if it might shred itself more easily from being pre compress in a curve.
Not much experience with composites builds, just brainstorming. Maybe you can test embedding a stringer made out of one or two layers of 90/0 or 45/-45 running between the two unidirectional layers. I'd use foam to form the stringer and fill the gaps. I heard of people using styrofoam during curing and then burning it afterwards with solvents, but I am not sure this would help for that specific panel.
Of course we do not yet know what the final structure will be, however there can be merit in whatever, say foam- carbon build, having outer ply or plies of kevlar / aramid to improve impact resilience and help contain the lethal and often explosively released carbon shards of a really violent impact. Applies especially to particular vehicular areas containing the human(s), esp. critical structural areas where personal injury is likely from fractured panels etc. Appropriate resin choice needed to wet out kevlar. Not sure if your plastic weave material could contribute in that way .. suspect not.
The 'plastic' fabrics are really just a variation on introducing Kevlar to carbon. They stretch much more than Kevlar, but are not as stiff. Kevlar is nearer to carbon's specs. Kevlar as an outer layer can be tricky if damaged since the exposed fibres will be fuzzy and suck up water. Hard to repair. In general, all are designed to make carbon more 'survivable' in the event of impacts. My impacts will be slow ones, so shards of kinetic carbon are v v unlikely, and having innegra etc in there will limit the chance of a total fracture.
Have you considered vacuum forming peelply-fiber-peelply over a 3D pattern, like an egg crate and using that as your core. Alternatively Saertex makes SAERfoam that has lengths of fiberglass punched through the foam with needles and looks like a double sided hairy mat, so you're bonding to fibers as well as the foam.
The failure of the core material in that last test was interesting. I don't think I've seen that kind of failure on a large scale in the real world, because most of the stuff I've been around has significant shape (think boat hulls). I suspect because of that, in the real world, that composite's performance would be fine.
for the core use narrow strips of core foam and alternate them over and under a 3rd sheet of carbon in such a way that the new third and now middle layer of carbon makes a zigzag or sign wave or cardboard pattern if looked at edge on, would probably be good to shape the foam strips in such a way as to avoid right angles for maximum durability
I can see where you're going with this, and in a vacuum consolidated part it might be neat, but that's a very complex web of strips, with tons of labour to taper the edges and avoid bridging if the key aim is to avoid two separate skins from separating either side of a core.
UHMWPE is great stuff but has to be used so carefully in composites as resin won't stick to it at all. In fact this polyethylene can be used as a release surface. So, the sandwich would need to be carefully designed.
th-cam.com/video/dHzqTfSkozg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=0jN13fb_gZ27OxZW This is who you should be talking to. Fiberglass and foam core has been his job for decades
I've just watched this, and aside from his cool vibrating consolidating machine and the fact that a GRP layup is a little different to a lightweight composite and epoxy layup, I'm not sure I'll be using it for training. Examples being that he's using polyester (I presume, but perhaps vinylester) and so then since he leaves it to cure overnight needs a heavy layer of ('not quite epoxy') adhesive to get the foam stuck down. No linkage between the top and bottom except at the edges. Then he laminates half of one layer the following day after the first half cures, leaving a poor mechanical bond with only polyester resin. These are real delamination red flags. Finally leaving a newly cured polyester layup out of the mould on wedges overnight, which is asking for warping as the resin continues to shrink a little. Sorry to be a downer!
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Alex, you need to contact a boat builder who specializes in fibreglass hulls. They can help you with the through laminate connections, and also they may have some suggestions on proper core support materials. A friend of mine built a small sail skiff out of foam core craft board, fibreglass poly resin and a mix of glass mat, and carbon mat. He built the main form out of the foam core and sandwiched it with the carbon mat on the exterior and the glass mat on the interior. When it was done and fully cured 3 of us could stand inside it and it barely flexed.
Whilst glass won't be a component for weight's sake, an investigation into through laminate connections will be a good idea, and I have a network of composite pro friends. The cores here are clearly top spec for their density.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals you should do some tests with S-glass fiber. Compared to carbon fiber in a hand lay up it is usually the same weight to strength. But you get the impact properties of the glass.
I've done a few tests with S glass. Good stuff, but your resin ratio would need to be crazily lean to overcome the extra density and therefore weight per unit stiffness. Also, whilst certainly stretchier than carbon, it's not in the same realm as diolen or innegra.
Great. Very interesting and well explained.
Small Note. Weight is the enemy of everything, not only Arctic vehicles.
Just found your channel, very cool stuff. I always wanted an old lifeboat. I'll have to set aside sometime and start watching those videos. Working in a carbon fiber boat shop I wish I could offer some advice but I'm more on the electrical side of things.
SAFETY GLASSES!!! Not optional! When you force composite laminates to their failure point, there’s a substancial risk of fiber/matrix projections - typically small pointy shards. I do talk from experience, and I mean the painful kind… Despite the safety issue, great video!
I was also thinking this
And don't breathe in the the dust... It's the modern asbestos
@@emanggitulah4319 That's true! Although I don't see it as critical, in this particular situation (a handful of experiments on a [apparently] well ventilated area...) as eye protection - the potential of an accident with catastrophic (often irreversible) consequences is something to bear in mind while dealing with high velocity projectiles.
You're probably right. If I'm to be horrifically maimed, I'd prefer it to be in a more glamorous and heroic context.
That said, when my grinding disc exploded, my eyes were protected and I ended up with a large scar on my stomach.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals FYI, picking shards out of you eye hurts way more than unscrewing your finger from a wall. Plus, you aren't kind of blind in one eye for a couple of days and no medical professional is needed for the finger. It's a risk vs reward thing. 😎
13:25 Can’t really tell from the video but I would expect that foam split closer to the top sheet. Manly because that’s where it was least supported due to the bad compressive strength of carbon fibre.
Interestingly this suggests that the foam is not compressible enough to follow the movement of the carbon fibres. It probably starts to shred it self when the parts bonded to the fibre compressed more then foam could handle.
If the failure was that the foam could not stretch as much as the carbon fibres of the bottom plate the foam would probably split in stripes that go across the board.
I would keep an eye on how the property’s of the foam change when you laminate it curved and if it might shred itself more easily from being pre compress in a curve.
On curves I'm likely to not use the PVC foam, but we'll see.
Ground up build will be awesome
Scale prototype first!
Not much experience with composites builds, just brainstorming. Maybe you can test embedding a stringer made out of one or two layers of 90/0 or 45/-45 running between the two unidirectional layers. I'd use foam to form the stringer and fill the gaps. I heard of people using styrofoam during curing and then burning it afterwards with solvents, but I am not sure this would help for that specific panel.
Of course we do not yet know what the final structure will be, however there can be merit in whatever, say foam- carbon build, having outer ply or plies of kevlar / aramid to improve impact resilience and help contain the lethal and often explosively released carbon shards of a really violent impact. Applies especially to particular vehicular areas containing the human(s), esp. critical structural areas where personal injury is likely from fractured panels etc. Appropriate resin choice needed to wet out kevlar.
Not sure if your plastic weave material could contribute in that way .. suspect not.
The 'plastic' fabrics are really just a variation on introducing Kevlar to carbon. They stretch much more than Kevlar, but are not as stiff. Kevlar is nearer to carbon's specs.
Kevlar as an outer layer can be tricky if damaged since the exposed fibres will be fuzzy and suck up water. Hard to repair.
In general, all are designed to make carbon more 'survivable' in the event of impacts.
My impacts will be slow ones, so shards of kinetic carbon are v v unlikely, and having innegra etc in there will limit the chance of a total fracture.
Have you considered vacuum forming peelply-fiber-peelply over a 3D pattern, like an egg crate and using that as your core.
Alternatively Saertex makes SAERfoam that has lengths of fiberglass punched through the foam with needles and looks like a double sided hairy mat, so you're bonding to fibers as well as the foam.
I'm not sure I can picture the peel ply idea. How would it form a core?
I'm avoiding glass as much as poss due to density.
The failure of the core material in that last test was interesting. I don't think I've seen that kind of failure on a large scale in the real world, because most of the stuff I've been around has significant shape (think boat hulls). I suspect because of that, in the real world, that composite's performance would be fine.
You're right that in a larger sheet, you'd not have the cons that a narrow plank has to deal with.
for the core use narrow strips of core foam and alternate them over and under a 3rd sheet of carbon in such a way that the new third and now middle layer of carbon makes a zigzag or sign wave or cardboard pattern if looked at edge on, would probably be good to shape the foam strips in such a way as to avoid right angles for maximum durability
I can see where you're going with this, and in a vacuum consolidated part it might be neat, but that's a very complex web of strips, with tons of labour to taper the edges and avoid bridging if the key aim is to avoid two separate skins from separating either side of a core.
Whatever you're testing for, i think i want one too 😜😁
Look at a Spectra-Shield inner core layer sheet on just the hull.
UHMWPE is great stuff but has to be used so carefully in composites as resin won't stick to it at all. In fact this polyethylene can be used as a release surface. So, the sandwich would need to be carefully designed.
The "taper" or "tongue" you're describing at 16:12 sounds almost like the composite equivalent of the web in an I beam.
I'm sure there's an official term for something joining two plies across a core.
Awesome 🥳
Each to their own
I totally missed the name of the place where you did all those double-fisted tests on the materials :o I'm not sure if you were there before. Ever :D
It almost like I've never shown or mentioned them. An anomaly in my otherwise flawlessly direct communication.
FURK . . SAFTY GLASSES PLEASE WHEN BREAKING STUFF :)
th-cam.com/video/dHzqTfSkozg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=0jN13fb_gZ27OxZW
This is who you should be talking to. Fiberglass and foam core has been his job for decades
I've just watched this, and aside from his cool vibrating consolidating machine and the fact that a GRP layup is a little different to a lightweight composite and epoxy layup, I'm not sure I'll be using it for training.
Examples being that he's using polyester (I presume, but perhaps vinylester) and so then since he leaves it to cure overnight needs a heavy layer of ('not quite epoxy') adhesive to get the foam stuck down. No linkage between the top and bottom except at the edges. Then he laminates half of one layer the following day after the first half cures, leaving a poor mechanical bond with only polyester resin. These are real delamination red flags. Finally leaving a newly cured polyester layup out of the mould on wedges overnight, which is asking for warping as the resin continues to shrink a little.
Sorry to be a downer!
@AlexHibbertOriginals no downer. He has another channel just lamination. He owns a surf board company.
Scintillating.
Quite