LEAF owner here. It's nonsense to suggest that when you get home from work in your LEAF you should not plug in in to charge. Anything up to an hour's driving does not make the battery excessively hot, and the 7kW charger installed at home does not create enough heat to be a problem either. If you really want to delay charging, the LEAF has a timer so you can start charging at midnight, for example, and have the car fully charged by the time you start in the morning (and maybe benefit from cheaper electricity too, on some tariffs). The real problem is longer road trips requiring rapid charging several times. Then the battery does get hot. In my experience the battery temperature rises most rapidly during rapid charging, and more slowly while driving. On the older series 1 30kWh LEAF it can overheat badly; my 40kWh LEAF 2.0 throttles charging rate to mitigate the problem but that mean longer waits. It's not a car for frequent road trips in a hurry, but it's absolutely fine for doing up to 120 miles per day.
Agree. Also Leaf owner. Little or no battery degradation on our 2016 model. But we do not drive hard and far often. And I follow the temperature and it is not very high with my driving.
Agree. I have been driving one for 6 years and never saw it get above the mid range in temperature and never had to delay charging. Yes, the used are cheap which is why I bought one. Just pay the low price for a great car and drive it for 4 years or so with incredibly low cost of ownership.
Instead of calling it a flaw, you can look at the Leaf as a car that has developed an alternative cooling of batteries, not only by air but also within it's chemistry with low degradation. If googling for problems with cooling systems in EVs, you find that problems occur rather often with active liquid cooling systems as well. The limitation with hard driving and fast charging is well known, and it's not a big issue. That said, I wouldn't recommend the car if you live in hot areas and plan for long drives without pauses though.
Nissan owner here I Finland. Because of cold weather, we don't feel any heating issues. In winter, it drops mileage, but it is perfect in summer. I have driven 150,000 km in 18 months. Approximately 6K a month and around 200km a day. I charge multiple times a day with fast charger. I bought it for 22K euros in 2022 and it is 2018 model with 40kw battery pack. I have saved almost 20K fuel price which is equal to its purchasing price. It is an excellent deal if you drive more than 100 km a day. My battery is still perfect, and soon I am going to touch 200K km.
I would argue that the 62kwh doesn’t use as many charge cycles which should extend the battery. It’s a commuter car 50-75miles a day. It’s not a road tripper but can be in a pinch.
That's what I keep telling people. If you bought a leaf, thinking you were gonna drive 200-300 miles a day, you're on drugs. It's an around town car. People need to evaluate their driving habits and buy a car from there. I averaged around 175 miles a month in my old ICE car. I knew buying a leaf would completely cover that without me having to fast charge multiple times a day. I use j plug and wall charger. That's it. Still have 12bars
We've owned a Leaf for 7 years, 40k miles with no problems. Battery still has full capacity. At 2:10 you say "Not convenient" BUT the leaf has a built-in timer. SO we get home, plug in, and it waits until midnight before the charge starts on cheap rate leccy. Obviously it cools in the hours before charging starts.
I replaced the battery in my 2012 Leaf 2 years ago. I went to 3 dealerships to get a price. 1 said they would not do it. The 2nd said $9,600. The 3rd said $7,600 but later said $9,200. I negotiated the price to $8,200 and it runs great. And yes, all three wanted me to buy a new car instead. The car is wonderful. But Nissan sucks.
I’ve been aware of this for years. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I’d say they did it to make sure someone only buys a battery electric ONCE. . . as you said, after I wrote that. . .
@@SamAlexanderTH-cam What you must consider is that the car was developed to a certain price point and basically designed as a town car (based on research around average daily miles). It is my understanding that active battery cooling was not originally included, for simplicity and to keep the price down. As one of the first EV's out there, the Leaf was really a test bed for the issue of battery degradation and other manufacturers have designed in active cooling. Rather than a cynical attempt to shorten the design life of the car, the issue is that active cooling cannot be fitted. The body shell would need a substantial redesign at a vast cost, to include active battery cooling and the new leaf is basically the same body as the old one. The company really had no choice but to include larger batteries in the face of the competition, while it was still unable to develop active cooling. They did work on the battery chemistry to make it more heat resistant. I think that it really depends upon where you run the car and how you use it. If its used mainly in the city in a temperate climate and not rapid charged frequently, then there is no reason why the battery should not degrade rapidly.
2011 Leaf owner here. Even though I leave the car at 80% charge and only charge up to 100% on some weekends, the battery still ended up with 60% range by 2018. Luckily, Nissan was still offering battery replacement at the time, and after a few long and lengthy calls with Nissan, I was given a discount to replace the battery for half the cost. Can't imagine having to pay $5k after 7 years. Since then the Leaf is our second car that gets driven once every few weeks. I can understand how the first generation Nissan Leaf only has air cooling, but the later generation of Leaf not having liquid cooling is very suspicious, as they would had received numerous complaints about their battery degradation issues by then.
few things that don't make sense Nissan is using a NMC chemistry now not LMO which is more resistant to temperatures also you can schedule charging so you can plug it in and it will charge when needed. There is no need to physically wait for it to cool down to plug in as you can set up charging off-peak
As a former Leaf owner, this is 100% spot on. We bought the car used and it ran great while I owned it (no maintenance other than replacing the wipers and rotating the tires), but the battery degradation eventually made the range anxiety too much when driving the car, particularly in winter. The cost of replacing the battery would have been more than we paid for the car, so we sold it. This doesn't seem to affect other EVs to this extent, but after our experience with the Leaf the only EV my wife will consider buying is a Tesla, which works for me :)
ten years ago nissan dealer was quoting me $180 usd for replacing a cabin filter in my 2011 Leaf, i wonder how much they would charge me to change my oil.
Would I buy a new leaf , nope. That’s why I bought dirt cheap one with over 85% range it’s perfect as a city car, I repeat city car. Buy a Tesla um no, why ? Well id be spending 5 times the price, even if my leaf loses half its range it’s fine for 95% of my driving. Work out your needs and double it, u got a car for another 5 years that smashes even the cheapest runabouts. Long journeys, I use our second car. I wouldn’t own a leaf as my main car :). Oh and stay away from the 2011 to 2013, those had the sensitive chemistry you speak of, later ones do much much better. I’ll buy a model Y when everyone’s hyped about some new Tesla in 5 years.
Same. I bought a 2015 with 85 percent capacity for 3,000 bucks after a state grant paid for 5,000 of the price. Worth it for me as a second car. I never would have spent the money for a new one though😂
It would be really interesting to see a follow up video to see how newer batteries are holding up and what the profile of expectations can be across different brands and their batteries, also looking a little at any different onboard battery health management technology. Additionally, do EVs still drop in price as fast over 4 years.
yup. I had two leafs but the second one degraded faster that the first one... for us we moved onto teslas. best most American car one can buy and the battery lasts forever... really. forever. I expect Nissan will go bankrupt in the next 15 years. Dealerships model is dieing.
@@SamAlexanderTH-cam I love Tesla’s but have 2 issues with them. Most important is the door handles. I want a mechanical linkage instead of actuators and no key hole. I see too many scenarios that you get locked out of your car potentially in the weather. My other issue with Tesla is the body fit and quality. They do seem to have superior motors and batteries though
@@dasppg9737my main gripe with Tesla is that they removed the gauge cluster from behind the steering wheel, now you have to look to the side to see critical information (such as your speed, navigation, battery charge.etc) which takes your eyes completely off the road With the model S the gauge cluster is still behind the steering wheel, so you can still see the road in your peripheral vision, making it much safer, but the model S is far too expensive for most people to even think of buying
The only effort Nissan made into engineering it's leaf is to make sure , that it does not last too long. The technology could not become any simpler than building electric cars. There were much bigger hurdles to take, when manufacturing the first cars with ice. Some companies ruin every good concept in the name of the greed. We should take the technology and responsibility into the many and much smaller firms , not owned by shareholders.
Here is a counterargument. A few years ago, we could easily replace the batteries in our phones after the battery degraded from a couple of years of use. This is no longer the case. Planned obsolescence. Apple iphone started this trend and it has really caught on with other vendors.
@@cheema33 I've never replaced a phone due to batteries, just got new one due to other failure after 5 yrs batts still plenty good. Making them replaceable would add bulk to your phone but if you take care of them they last, granted the phone should do batt management for you. But I don't do Apple either.
@@cheema33 A better counter argument would be showing me a phone that was set to expire after a yr or 2 from ANY cause. I wouldn't buy that brand. I know ppl who have OLD Iphones with no desire to replace them but others tell them how much better the new one's are. Apple deliberately degrading old phones after the fact was rightly met with outrage and not forgotten, a good reason to avoid the brand.
Have a 2019 leaf and its battery lost 18% capacity within 1 year and driving less than 10k miles. Discussed with Nissan and they claim the battery is still good. How is that possible that they can get away with faulty batteries? Need help.
I say their nissan ariya is amazing the only thing that they need to fix is the damn trim levels, they have so many which is very unnecessary. Nissan just needs 3 trim level basic, mid level and high level. The basic should still have a range of 230 or higher but nothing less.
Not having thermal managment should be illegal. Its disturbing to know that so many low mile leaf's are going to be in the junk yard, because it not worth the price to replace the battery.
New LEAF owner here. We purchased a 2017 LEAF off lease out of coastal CA , 30kw, 12 bars in April, 2020. After the state EV vehicle rebate our net cost was ~$9500. After nine months and 3500 miles I'd rate this as the best used car we have ever purchased. For in-town commutes it is the perfect vehicle. Sure, better battery management would be nice but not essential as long as you take reasonable care. Don't use fast chargers too often (or ever) & don't charge a hot battery. This vehicle is designed for shortish commutes not long distance trips (and the cost reflects this). When purchasing a used vehicle try to get one off lease from a relatively cool area of the country such as a coastal climate. I don't know about the newer LEAFs but I would not hesitate recommending a 2016-2017 30kw used LEAF even to a family member.
What if I live in an apt complex and can't charge it at home since I don't have a garage. I'll have to rely on stations. Also there's some owners who experienced abrupt shut down b/c of the 12 volt battery being depleted, out of the blue like while driving. Scary prospect, this really deterred me, but still open to it.
@@roamlikekane I think you are right to be a little cautious in this case. You don't want to charge w/ "fast chargers". I'd try to figure out a way to charge at the apt. (extension cord, outside outlet). Perhaps convince your apt. manager to install a level 2 charger for their renters. These really are great cars and would be worth the effort. Don't worry about the 12v battery just keep up with maintenance and replace the battery every 3 years or so.
I drive a 10 year old Civic that has not cost me anything beyond routine maintenance,but for the environment,I am looking at an EV. Thinking of getting a Bolt.
Use the vehicle built in timer to charge after midnight. I do this and I also get incentive payments from my utility company to charge during off peak times.
@@macberry4048 Agreed, it's a relative success story that way, and I wasn't dissing it. But Nissan seems to be in perpetual reorganization, they booted Ghosn, and sales are way down.
EV manufacturers: Drive an EV help save the planet. Us: I need a new battery please. Also EV manufacturers: Yeah you should buy a new car. Us: Isn't that kind of wasteful?
These practices will blow in Nissans faces and they will lose customers, you stand behind your product or be ready to see people voting with their wallets ! Great content , spread the word.
Been driving Leafs from 2014, your video is very accurate. Next problem with the battery is that if you have a cell short-circut, then Nissan will fight you as owner and claim that a short-circut is not degradation and therefore. Not covered by warranty. I tried fighting Nissan for years to no prevail. Secondly a cell short-circut in the battery pack, will brick the car. In more modern battery packs, from other manufactured a cell short-circut will just cause the pack to isolate the shorted cell. Nissan quoted me USD 6000,- to change 1 cell in my leafs pack. This is a major design flaw, and Nissan don't care. Crooks!!!
I own a 2012 Leaf that I bought used. This video is accurate. I never recommend a Leaf as a new car purchase. As a used car they're fine because they're cheap so long as the person buying it knows what too expect. I have over 25% battery degradation right now. My replacement for the Leaf will not be another Nissan.
Wow, that covered a lot of ground. I have a 2011 Leaf, sub 10,000 production SV. Purchase used with 20,000 miles for $14K. Being aware of the 1st Gen battery issues (bad chemistry) and two bars lost, I purchased a Gen 2 battery 01/2017. $5,500 shipping tax labor other needed items. The Leaf was engineered as a city EV. Rarely fast charge, sonar power at home, from 0 miles to 50 miles runs, it’s suitable. Very short highway runs 20 miles or less at 60 mph. 5.5 years, one segment lost, at 80% charge 55 to 60 miles practical range and with free/low cost L2 chargers now available such as a zoo, restaurante, Parks, the car is 100% functional at 10 years of age. Two electronic cooling system fans replaced have been the only repair required. No emissions, free electrons, very low rate of degradation, no need to charge 100%, no need to fast charge, no need to have a $50,000 Tesla for my transportation needs. Long distance? OK. A 2018 used Hyundai Ioniq PHEV acquired 10 months ago, replaced an aging hybrid SUV, for $20K Limited trim, goes 30-33 miles EV then uses 1 gallon per hour! Very cheap to operate even compared to an EV, and as per wife, no need to wait to charge. Sorry about your experiences with Nissan USA/dealership. Thanks for the report.
Great theory. Give it time and we will see 3rd party battery manufacturers and reconditioned; possibly someone will come out with an aftermarket cooling system.
In Europe, specifically Finland, EV tech servicing companies replace/upgrade Gen 1 Leaf batteries at good price! In the US, an AZ company “repairs” Tesla batteries by locating and bypassing bad cells. 1 customer purchased a 15 mile range S, shipped it, battery repair was about $6,500, then sold the Tesla at a nice profit!!
Not only is the new Nissan battery guarantee awful (66% for just 100,000 miles) but I would have serious concerns whether Nissan will still be around in a few years to honour that guarantee.
Projecting outcomes without data is wreckless. I have 3 year old 63kwh battery (2021) with 36k miles that does not show the first bar of lost capacity (85%). There is some data that does not track with your projection
Just getting a 2024 40kwh leased Leaf over 3 years. Ideal UK car because its a cold cool climate here and they are CHEAP to lease. Fuel is also very expensive.
The Leaf was among the first to market with a great car. The battery degradation is a development issue fudged by active cooling which helps increase the life. But it still degrades. For now we put up with it as it still works well enough. The new battery technology coming along will give a big improvement. But will take some years to get to market in the meantime enjoy what we have its not so bad really.
Just because you knew it, doesn't mean everybody knows it. I for one, am so glad I watched this video. I was all for getting a used leaf in the 2013-2017 year range. Now, I am for sure NOT going to buy any used Leaf at all. I am going to sit back and watch the technology improve before I plunk down any money on any electric vehicle. Thank you, Sam!
A fan would help pack last longer. I agree pack degradation of Leaf sucks, though packs last longer in cold climates, like Canada and Northern Midwest and ew England. Intentional? Yes, to cut costs. Luckily third party solutions are starting to appear. I wonder how 40 kWh pack will last. Nissan switched to NCM cells in 2018. The older LMO cells are clearly problematic.
It's definitely intentional. In California, 2011-2013 leafs with less than 40,000 miles can often have less than HALF the battery capacity. My 2012 has only 35 miles (4 bars out of 13) range left after only 42,000 miles. Nissan is too smart to NOT KNOW that what they are doing is bad for customers! The cost of a liquid cooling system is only about $50 more per car, far less when amortized over THOUSANDS of cars. Yet they won't put in liquid cooling? They aren't stupid, they know they have to LOOK like they are promoting EVs while simultaneously making EV's look like garbage and supporting their dealer networks!
thats absolutely brutal. yeah I agree when you look at the costs of a cooling system, it seems to me they're intentionally NOT using a system so that the batteries degrade to force people to upgrade or repair. just my opinion though
I notice the placement of those vents . . . if the battery ever goes critical, its right under the driver! AKA me FFS! . . . I've also been wondering about the HV cable placement in EVs . . . they can't be inside the cab; in the case of a water crash all the occupants would fry!
They are not degrading by 10% a year check your facts, brought one that's over 8yrs old, it still has 11 bars out of 12, battery's have never been changed.
The car has an onboard charging timer, controls the start and stop. I plug in when I get home from work, every 3rd day or so, I have it set to charge 12 am to 6 am as my utility gives me $0.09/kWh at that super off peak time. Love my leaf, 30k miles so far no issues
Are you *sure* that LEAFs have air-cooled batteries? I've owned and driven LEAFs from 2011 through this summer (a 2011, a 2012, a 2016 and a 2018), and it's my impression that there is NO cooling *whatsoever* . Heat escapes from the cells by conduction through the battery pack case. I remember driving from Portland to Bellingham one winter where the ambient temperature was around freezing, and I watched, enraged, as the battery temperature gauge rose to just below the "red zone" with successive DC quick charges. I still can't feature how, with upwards of 60 degrees F of temperature differential pushing it, the battery heat still couldn't escape.
good question, it depends on the leaf, the earlier leafs use passive air cooling, and the newer ones use a small fan, however I dont know if the fan is only on the models with the larger battery or not.
I agree with you that the design of the Nissan leaf battery pack without proper thermal management is deliberate - to fleece the owners down the road when the battery pack dies prematurely from poor thermal management. Now you are forced to pay for a new battery or buy another car. This is the type of behavior that could put Nissan out of business.
I have no idea if that is what they are doing but it would make sense... I do love the market on used leafs though... It makes a great commuter/in town/secondary car... So much so that the original reason I got it(to save up for an electric truck) seems in crazy when the leaf is so cheap to operate and own... At least till the battery completely goes caput.
This is one of the reasons why I like the NIO BaaS system. NIO also put in vast amounts of money to keep the aftermarket attractive by buying back the cars and therefore maintain the high-quality level of the cars overall. Changing your battery within 5 minutes at literally no cost other than the battery is brilliant. Plus, you can up- or downgrade your capacity depending on your use case for your vehicle.
I live in Northern Europe and there are no known issues with Leaf battery degradation. There are numerous Leaf (Gen 1) used as taxis covering over 150,000 miles (not km) before the batteries are replaced. Indeed, there is very little demand for battery replacement simply because there is no need. My 2015 24kwh Leaf has done 55k miles and still show 12 bars, and I can get 90+ miles per charge. The secret? Do not let it run down below 20% SOC and charge up to only 80 - 90% SOC unless you need the extra charge.
But Nissan is releasing the Ariya next year, and that has a liquid cooled battery. I doubt Nissan will bother to upgrade the Leaf, if they continue it.
21 62Kwh Leaf we bought 2nd hand. Best car we've ever had. No bars lost and no rapidgate either. Does warm up slowly and cool down slowly but where we live this isn't a problem. No problems with it at all so far.
Having owned all versions of the Leaf, I have not encountered any of these issues. Yes a TMS would be nice 1% of the time. Nissan owns it's battery plant and therefore are not forced to use a TMS due to warranty issues. All the major battery manufacturers make it mandatory to use liguid cooling for warranty issues. In 2014, Nissan introduced the "lizard" battery that has an improved chemistry and better battery longevity. The 30 kWh Leaf had a faulty LBC that under reported the true capacity. This is well known and I'm surprised you left this important information out of your video. insideevs.com/news/326332/nissan-leaf-taxi-hits-100000-miles-still-has-all-battery-bars/
I don't think any legacy carmaker wants any used electric cars on the road. I became really infatuated with the iMiEV after I learned that it started at 24k
Why do you say that? I owned an imiev for almost four years. I miss it. I had some problems with it, but it was cool. Now I have a leaf for almost two years. It's cool.
@@Prodigious1One Theirs no effort from companies to keep cars on the road. Most car companies didn't even try to make their own motors so basically you need to talk to LG and LG doesn't pick up the phone unless you ready to spend money and place a big order
I think that’s exactly what they’re doing. We have a 2018 it’s been given us all kinds of problems related to the battery stating we need to service the EV system. The car shut down multiple times on us it does have about 75,000 miles on itand the day I dropped it off at service they had a salesman. Call me trying to sell me a new car. I wondered why he decided to call me and after watching this video now I realize it was because of the battery degradation and how they are dealing with it.
I had a 2011 Nissan Leaf I bought used and it got down to 40 miles of usable range. I was not happy. But I also realized that I had bought a car that had been leased by someone who lived in a very hot part of Southern California and who apparently did most of their charging with DC fast charging, not plugging it in at home. I am purchasing a 2018 Nissan leaf, and yes it still does not have active thermal management, but the battery chemistry has been reformulated three times since 2011, and the software that caused “rapid gate” has been upgraded. Most of my driving and charging will be done with my level two charger at home. I would also point out that in colder places, northern latitudes in Europe, North America, and Asia, there are 10 year old Nissan Leafs that have experienced virtually no battery degradation at all. Since the car is designed in Japan, perhaps the engineers just don’t get it about the way the rest of the world drives, or how hot it is in the rest of the world. The new Nissan Arica will have an active thermal management system in its battery. There are a lot of variables with this issue, so to posture it is this absolute flaw that will affect every leaf and every leaf owner is a bit of an exaggeration. I would refer all of you to transport evolved show on their own Nissan leaf in Portland Oregon, and it’s 10 years of service with no battery degradation.
I live in Australia and I bought a 24kwh 2013 model with 87% battery health Had it for about 2 months, being the middle of summer here (30-40°C average) with about 20% of my charging being at DC fast chargers (the rest being 240V home charging or level 2 public charging) the battery health is down to 83% The degradation is substantial, I knew what to expect, but I didn't think the degradation would be THAT much, and considering this is my first ever EV, I likely won't be buying a Nissan when I upgrade unless they make one with active battery cooling
There’s a reason why used Leaf battery cells are usually 60-70 capacity and easy to extract…No liquid cooling. Tesla’s have a heat pump system that is years ahead of the competition.
idk my chevy volt is the same age as most of these leafs. it used the same pouch style lipol cells that are basically big phone batteries. i have 130k miles on my car and my partner has a 1 year older volt with 120k miles on it. we both have zero degradation. i know how the volt saves the extra 6kwh and uses that to offset degradation, but its at the point where im getting 50+ miles of range out of 10kwh on my 2013 volt, which is better than most leafs of the same age... except i have a gas motor so i can use that 50miles of ev range on every single journey and have no range anxiety. chevy accidentally made the best ev in 2010 and no one cared coz they thought it was another prius. now everyones flocking to phev's with half the range and paying 5-10x as much as i paid for mine used. crazy
My 2018 leaf has done 141K at the moment, when it reached around 110K I saw mega issues arise, I’ve spent £5,500 replacing battery modules and while the there are less fault lights my 150 mile range is 60 at best… this video was great, 100% accurate of my experience with a leaf. I won’t be buying another leaf… Tesla it is !!
@@khuo0219 - In America , Hyundai and KIA both have ZERO confidence in their Vehicles. so, the sell ONLY in ZEV states , that have advantages with EV sales . SOME states dont allow BEV sales . antiquated Dealership laws. so, Hyundai has low Sales numbers and Ships too few cars to those States , making Hyundai EV hard to find ( KONA EV & e-NIRO). Hyundai Ionic is easier to find however.
Any 2:44 you're comparing degradation over time and on the Tesla's case over milage. It would have been better to keep the comparison homogeneous. I can make 150000 mi in a year, most people maybe over 4. It's not a adecuate example but from my experience with the Prius, battery degradation keeps going even if the car is never used, that's why Prius batteries are said to last around 10 years disregatding milage. There's a counter argument to be said: in Europe, I don't know about the us, you can buy the Leaf for significantly less and rent the battery, this way, for the duration of the rent, it's covered by all degradation and malfunctions, and it's not that expensive either. Anyway, I was in the market exactly for a Leaf, thank you, I will considerate only cars with proper battery cooling.
Leaf and Tesla now (2018+) share a near identical battery warranty. 8 years, 70% capacity, and 100k miles. Similar to the 30kWh Leafs, the 90kWh Teslas are seeing above normal degradation.
Tesla is so proactive about battery protection that they use climate control to maintain battery temps as needed, even when parked, which can lead to some pretty big losses just storing the vehicle. Wonder if Tesla's new batteries, particularly LFP, might reduce cooling needs and those vampire drains.
LFP will reduce the need for active temperature control, but the fact that LFP has a little over half the energy density, the LFP models will have substantially reduced range compared to the models that use NMC/NCA cells
Even though the LEAF cannot do extremely long road trips, think about the utility it does offer. With its 200 mile range for the LEAF Plus, charging every night. If you never used public charging and drove just as far as you could based on your home charging range, you could drive 73,000 miles/year. That's 200 miles times 365 charging each night. Most people do 12-15k miles, so about a fifth of that number. The LEAF can still do loooooooads of miles for people at a quite affordable price point when you get one on sale, which is happening right now worldwide.
yeah I agree, it has its uses for sure, I just worry that poor engineering/maybe something more nefarious is stopping the leaf from being an awesome long lived car
Stopped listening 4 minutes in. This was old news even at the time of recording. Nissan fixed the problem back in 2019 while still using passive cooling. I've had my (62 kWh) Leaf now for almost 5 years and my battery is still functioning at 100%.
As the owner of a first generation Leaf I think this video is spot on. Nissan is still selling Leaf's with no active cooling system in their 2021 model Leaf's and aren't supporting owners of the older models. If someone decides to do a class action lawsuit against Nissan forcing the to buy back older model Leaf's at original purchase price, I'm in. I just don't see that happening. So, I'm stuck with a Leaf with 50 miles range. The only solution i see if eventually buying a solid state battery for the car, one that won't require a thermal management system and will give my 2011 Leaf a range around 300 miles. Given Nissans handling of this whole battery system i would advice everyone to steer clear of any Nissan product, electric and ICE.
My 2011 Leaf's battery went below spec at 40k miles, was replaced under warranty, then again at 80k, same problem. For a first-gen mass-market EV, it was good and I loved driving it. But I bought two Teslas and there's no going back now. But if you've got a really short commute, I wouldn't dissuade anyone from buying a cheap used Leaf.
Its a 3 phase technology in a car anyone young looking for a great career opportunity its a brilliant market to repair the fuel pack and replacing compromised cells. If only I was young again.....
I was literally just telling my girlfriend how terrible the Nissan Leaf was the other day nice video I'll be sure to show this to her we were looking at getting a Tesla and she asked about a Nissan Leaf
@@Prodigious1Onewhat if you want an EV with a proper battery cooling system, but you don't want to have to look at the center console to see how fast you're going, and don't have the money for a Tesla model S
@@Prodigious1One my point is the only Tesla I'd want to own would be a model S because it has a gauge cluster behind the steering wheel like every other car on the market instead of off to the side like every other Tesla
I have a 2018 Tesla Model 3, and using Scan My Tesla that has 7.33% degradation... And only 55,000kms. My mom's 2012 Leaf has about 16% degradation after 8 years. My other 2017 Volt has 99.7% of it's original capacity. So Tesla's do degrade and not immune to significant degradation due to Super Charging. But I agree that Nissan's support has been dreadful at best. No question on that.
Nissan Leaf owner here. If I got 50% of the original miles I would be VERY happy. Presently (No joke) I get 30 miles per charge and have 50,000 miles on the car. Nissan LIED top to bottom. Cost to replace the battery? $9999.99 (but not $10,000...). Nissan claims that the 30 miles per charge that I get at 50,000 miles is equal to the 70-80% they CLAIM I would get at 100,000 miles. Ohh by the way, you do not get a NEW battery for the $10,000. You get a USED "RECONDITIONED Battery. We were trying to decide which was the worst car ever produced: The Leaf or the Yugo. We decided the Leaf as the Yugo got about 80,000 miles before you junked it, and this will not get 60,000. As for the making outrageous amount on small servicing I was charge TWICE the high amount for the first servicing (adjustments only) even though I provided a coupon from Nissan for a "Free First Servicing". I will never buy a car from them again. If you think I am kidding feel free to provide a way to get in touch with you, and I will, and verify everything. This car is a RIPOFF as you have to divide the price by the miles you get to find out how much it costs to drive per mile. It is also NOT environmental, as Electric cars are worst for the Environment until they hit 60,000 miles, and this one will be junked before then. I am looking at Chevy Bolts (with active battery cooling) already. FYI I live on the coast, usually charged 110V and occasionally charged 220 (once a month).
I don't know that the "critical flaw" you're discussing - which isn't secret nor unknown about the product - is actually a flaw. When they released the 62kwh battery, they reconfigured the battery pack to have 3 cells per "unit" and that drastically reduced the heat dissipation while fast charging (heat has never been a problem with level 2 home charging). It actually doesn't even have a fan, the Leaf is 100% passively cooled. I don't know that the situation is as bad as some of the claims in your video, however I'm aware there are some customers that have had premature battery problems. But I don't think its the majority of Leaf vehicles sold, I do know a 2018 40kwh Leaf owner and it has lost less than 10% over the last 4 years, that's with fast charging occurring. I do think car companies in general, partially because of the economic paradigm we live in, like building 'disposable' products rather than fixable ones. The same is true of a Tesla, they offer battery replacements, but they are prohibitively expensive and not worth it. We need more 3rd party, aftermarket battery servicing for EVs to make them last because the EV motors and other parts are lasting much longer than ICE cars.
LEAF owner here. It’s not “cheap af.” It’s actually very expensive for what you get. Unfortunately I live in a RHD country and we get every Tesla two years late and with a 30% markup. Sucks a lot.
Because it has no liquid cooling, you can't fast-charge the battery without causing damage to the battery. So that car is pretty much limited to the slow 240V home-charging that most people will be giving it, and the Leaf is not a car you want to use on long road trips where you have to charge it while you are on a trip. Also: DO NOT top-up charge the battery as that will kill the battery quickly. Only charge it after it drops down to below half-full.
If you have the 62kwh version then not fully charging it is reasonable, but if you have the 24kwh version, you're essentially throwing away driving range that is at a HUGE premium 80% charge on the 24kwh model only gives you about 120km total On the 62kwh version you would have around 250km total at 80% charge
All very true Sam. I'm in New Zealand and all our Leafs up to 2019 came second hand from Japan. We already have several successful small local battery service people and we can get a reconditioned 24kw battery for about 6k ; that's about 4.5k US. One local shop has developed some cheap converters that allow a straight swap of 30kw into a 24kw frame. Check out EV's Enhanced on TH-cam.
Nissan is Japan originated brand and they designed the car having in mind Japan car market. There old cars have to go through strict inspections so car owner who can afford a car is forced to have new instead of keeping old running. So battery degradation over 3 year for the Japan car market was not a problem so it wasn't addressed. So this explanation in TH-cam, you can try searching for something similar too
I kept my older vehicle a lot longer than I wanted to and saved for 3 years to be able to purchase my Tesla M3 SR+. Having a big down payment made it affordable.
Used Leafs are a good value if you only need 70 miles and don’t live in a hot climate. Also, if you live in a place with lots of chargers, many of them free, like Bay Area. The highest trim of the early 30kWh Leafs have DC for 50kW charging.
LEAF owner here. It's nonsense to suggest that when you get home from work in your LEAF you should not plug in in to charge. Anything up to an hour's driving does not make the battery excessively hot, and the 7kW charger installed at home does not create enough heat to be a problem either. If you really want to delay charging, the LEAF has a timer so you can start charging at midnight, for example, and have the car fully charged by the time you start in the morning (and maybe benefit from cheaper electricity too, on some tariffs).
The real problem is longer road trips requiring rapid charging several times. Then the battery does get hot. In my experience the battery temperature rises most rapidly during rapid charging, and more slowly while driving. On the older series 1 30kWh LEAF it can overheat badly; my 40kWh LEAF 2.0 throttles charging rate to mitigate the problem but that mean longer waits. It's not a car for frequent road trips in a hurry, but it's absolutely fine for doing up to 120 miles per day.
thanks for the insight, yeah the manual said to avoid doing long road trips for that reason
Agree. Also Leaf owner. Little or no battery degradation on our 2016 model. But we do not drive hard and far often. And I follow the temperature and it is not very high with my driving.
@@arnebovarne7759 thats awesome! glad its working for ya
Agree. I have been driving one for 6 years and never saw it get above the mid range in temperature and never had to delay charging. Yes, the used are cheap which is why I bought one. Just pay the low price for a great car and drive it for 4 years or so with incredibly low cost of ownership.
Instead of calling it a flaw, you can look at the Leaf as a car that has developed an alternative cooling of batteries, not only by air but also within it's chemistry with low degradation. If googling for problems with cooling systems in EVs, you find that problems occur rather often with active liquid cooling systems as well. The limitation with hard driving and fast charging is well known, and it's not a big issue. That said, I wouldn't recommend the car if you live in hot areas and plan for long drives without pauses though.
i bought a used 2014 we set charging to stop at 80% we charge it every 2 days. No degradation so far.
Smart move
Use mine about 80 miles a day and I plug in at about 40-50% every day. Have 20k on mine and still has zero degradation.
Nissan owner here I Finland. Because of cold weather, we don't feel any heating issues. In winter, it drops mileage, but it is perfect in summer.
I have driven 150,000 km in 18 months. Approximately 6K a month and around 200km a day. I charge multiple times a day with fast charger. I bought it for 22K euros in 2022 and it is 2018 model with 40kw battery pack. I have saved almost 20K fuel price which is equal to its purchasing price. It is an excellent deal if you drive more than 100 km a day.
My battery is still perfect, and soon I am going to touch 200K km.
I would argue that the 62kwh doesn’t use as many charge cycles which should extend the battery. It’s a commuter car 50-75miles a day. It’s not a road tripper but can be in a pinch.
That's what I keep telling people. If you bought a leaf, thinking you were gonna drive 200-300 miles a day, you're on drugs. It's an around town car. People need to evaluate their driving habits and buy a car from there. I averaged around 175 miles a month in my old ICE car. I knew buying a leaf would completely cover that without me having to fast charge multiple times a day. I use j plug and wall charger. That's it. Still have 12bars
We've owned a Leaf for 7 years, 40k miles with no problems. Battery still has full capacity. At 2:10 you say "Not convenient" BUT the leaf has a built-in timer. SO we get home, plug in, and it waits until midnight before the charge starts on cheap rate leccy. Obviously it cools in the hours before charging starts.
I replaced the battery in my 2012 Leaf 2 years ago. I went to 3 dealerships to get a price. 1 said they would not do it. The 2nd said $9,600. The 3rd said $7,600 but later said $9,200. I negotiated the price to $8,200 and it runs great. And yes, all three wanted me to buy a new car instead. The car is wonderful. But Nissan sucks.
im glad you were actually able to buy a new battery! but yeah, thats tough when the shops dont want you to just repair your car.
Mine was quoted at 19400 in 2023 for a 2013 car. Will never buy nissan ever again. Nissan corporate said tough luck have a nice life.
@@SamAlexanderTH-cam I am selling my 2012 Leaf for $5500. The battery is still good for 65 miles and will work in your car.
But don't they want you to be 'Green' and you drive your EV forever?
5 year leaf owner. Only had the battery go into the red twice. 52000 miles and have not lost a bar on my battery health bar.
I’ve been aware of this for years. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I’d say they did it to make sure someone only buys a battery electric ONCE. . . as you said, after I wrote that. . .
yup..
@@SamAlexanderTH-cam What you must consider is that the car was developed to a certain price point and basically designed as a town car (based on research around average daily miles). It is my understanding that active battery cooling was not originally included, for simplicity and to keep the price down. As one of the first EV's out there, the Leaf was really a test bed for the issue of battery degradation and other manufacturers have designed in active cooling.
Rather than a cynical attempt to shorten the design life of the car, the issue is that active cooling cannot be fitted. The body shell would need a substantial redesign at a vast cost, to include active battery cooling and the new leaf is basically the same body as the old one. The company really had no choice but to include larger batteries in the face of the competition, while it was still unable to develop active cooling. They did work on the battery chemistry to make it more heat resistant.
I think that it really depends upon where you run the car and how you use it. If its used mainly in the city in a temperate climate and not rapid charged frequently, then there is no reason why the battery should not degrade rapidly.
@@TheLongonot62 yeah thats a fair point,
You might think that, but most EV owners say they'd never go back to ICE.
2011 Leaf owner here. Even though I leave the car at 80% charge and only charge up to 100% on some weekends, the battery still ended up with 60% range by 2018. Luckily, Nissan was still offering battery replacement at the time, and after a few long and lengthy calls with Nissan, I was given a discount to replace the battery for half the cost. Can't imagine having to pay $5k after 7 years. Since then the Leaf is our second car that gets driven once every few weeks.
I can understand how the first generation Nissan Leaf only has air cooling, but the later generation of Leaf not having liquid cooling is very suspicious, as they would had received numerous complaints about their battery degradation issues by then.
yeah im really sorry that happened to you. it does need the liquid cooling system
I'm glad that you got a good deal for the replacement battery.
few things that don't make sense Nissan is using a NMC chemistry now not LMO which is more resistant to temperatures also you can schedule charging so you can plug it in and it will charge when needed. There is no need to physically wait for it to cool down to plug in as you can set up charging off-peak
the same LG cells that are in many other mainstream EV's the LMO has been discontinued long ago
oh thank you, I didnt know you could schedule your charge, that does help a bit. thanks!
As a former Leaf owner, this is 100% spot on. We bought the car used and it ran great while I owned it (no maintenance other than replacing the wipers and rotating the tires), but the battery degradation eventually made the range anxiety too much when driving the car, particularly in winter. The cost of replacing the battery would have been more than we paid for the car, so we sold it. This doesn't seem to affect other EVs to this extent, but after our experience with the Leaf the only EV my wife will consider buying is a Tesla, which works for me :)
yeah I think your experience is quite common as far as the leaf is concerned. but hey, now you can get a TESLA!
What about the chevrolet bolt
@@macberry4048 it explodes in a fireball if you leave it pluged in winth the battery full
@@Plisken65 I guess so. We've been happy owners of a 2018 Model 3 LR for nearly two years now.
ten years ago nissan dealer was quoting me $180 usd for replacing a cabin filter in my 2011 Leaf, i wonder how much they would charge me to change my oil.
Would I buy a new leaf , nope. That’s why I bought dirt cheap one with over 85% range it’s perfect as a city car, I repeat city car. Buy a Tesla um no, why ? Well id be spending 5 times the price, even if my leaf loses half its range it’s fine for 95% of my driving. Work out your needs and double it, u got a car for another 5 years that smashes even the cheapest runabouts. Long journeys, I use our second car. I wouldn’t own a leaf as my main car :). Oh and stay away from the 2011 to 2013, those had the sensitive chemistry you speak of, later ones do much much better. I’ll buy a model Y when everyone’s hyped about some new Tesla in 5 years.
yeah I agree you can get a great value on them when used.
Smart strategy. I think the 13 leaf and later are ok for battery chemistry.
Same. I bought a 2015 with 85 percent capacity for 3,000 bucks after a state grant paid for 5,000 of the price. Worth it for me as a second car. I never would have spent the money for a new one though😂
It would be really interesting to see a follow up video to see how newer batteries are holding up and what the profile of expectations can be across different brands and their batteries, also looking a little at any different onboard battery health management technology.
Additionally, do EVs still drop in price as fast over 4 years.
I wonder if the Nissan Aryia will have a flawed thermal management system
yup. I had two leafs but the second one degraded faster that the first one... for us we moved onto teslas. best most American car one can buy and the battery lasts forever... really. forever. I expect Nissan will go bankrupt in the next 15 years. Dealerships model is dieing.
how do you like the Tesla vs the leaf?
@@SamAlexanderTH-cam I love Tesla’s but have 2 issues with them. Most important is the door handles. I want a mechanical linkage instead of actuators and no key hole. I see too many scenarios that you get locked out of your car potentially in the weather. My other issue with Tesla is the body fit and quality. They do seem to have superior motors and batteries though
@@dasppg9737my main gripe with Tesla is that they removed the gauge cluster from behind the steering wheel, now you have to look to the side to see critical information (such as your speed, navigation, battery charge.etc) which takes your eyes completely off the road
With the model S the gauge cluster is still behind the steering wheel, so you can still see the road in your peripheral vision, making it much safer, but the model S is far too expensive for most people to even think of buying
How about Hyundai Ionic Electric Elite?
Planned obsolescence only makes a company obsolete in a competitive environment.
hope thats the case, we do see leaf sales declining over the past 4 years..
The only effort Nissan made into engineering it's leaf is to make sure , that it does not last too long.
The technology could not become any simpler than building electric cars. There were much bigger hurdles to take, when manufacturing the first cars with ice. Some companies ruin every good concept in the name of the greed. We should take the technology and responsibility into the many and much smaller firms , not owned by shareholders.
Here is a counterargument. A few years ago, we could easily replace the batteries in our phones after the battery degraded from a couple of years of use. This is no longer the case. Planned obsolescence. Apple iphone started this trend and it has really caught on with other vendors.
@@cheema33 I've never replaced a phone due to batteries, just got new one due to other failure after 5 yrs batts still plenty good. Making them replaceable would add bulk to your phone but if you take care of them they last, granted the phone should do batt management for you. But I don't do Apple either.
@@cheema33 A better counter argument would be showing me a phone that was set to expire after a yr or 2 from ANY cause. I wouldn't buy that brand.
I know ppl who have OLD Iphones with no desire to replace them but others tell them how much better the new one's are. Apple deliberately degrading old phones after the fact was rightly met with outrage and not forgotten, a good reason to avoid the brand.
Have a 2019 leaf and its battery lost 18% capacity within 1 year and driving less than 10k miles. Discussed with Nissan and they claim the battery is still good. How is that possible that they can get away with faulty batteries? Need help.
Sue the bastards!
Not cool. A 2019 should not degrade that fast.
Yes 2015 Nissan leaf 55k miles battery 67% health . Quoted 24k for a new battery 😅at my local Nissan dealer.
Awesome video man, please remember me when you have 100k subscribers. I found you since the beginning. I love your content.
hahaha it'll be a while (if ever)
but thank you, I really appreciate that
Nissan is such a lousy car maker, it's not even funny. They totally blew thier chance to be a major EV contender...
I say their nissan ariya is amazing the only thing that they need to fix is the damn trim levels, they have so many which is very unnecessary. Nissan just needs 3 trim level basic, mid level and high level. The basic should still have a range of 230 or higher but nothing less.
Not having thermal managment should be illegal. Its disturbing to know that so many low mile leaf's are going to be in the junk yard, because it not worth the price to replace the battery.
New LEAF owner here. We purchased a 2017 LEAF off lease out of coastal CA , 30kw, 12 bars in April, 2020. After the state EV vehicle rebate our net cost was ~$9500. After nine months and 3500 miles I'd rate this as the best used car we have ever purchased. For in-town commutes it is the perfect vehicle. Sure, better battery management would be nice but not essential as long as you take reasonable care. Don't use fast chargers too often (or ever) & don't charge a hot battery. This vehicle is designed for shortish commutes not long distance trips (and the cost reflects this). When purchasing a used vehicle try to get one off lease from a relatively cool area of the country such as a coastal climate. I don't know about the newer LEAFs but I would not hesitate recommending a 2016-2017 30kw used LEAF even to a family member.
thanks for sharing!
What if I live in an apt complex and can't charge it at home since I don't have a garage. I'll have to rely on stations. Also there's some owners who experienced abrupt shut down b/c of the 12 volt battery being depleted, out of the blue like while driving. Scary prospect, this really deterred me, but still open to it.
@@roamlikekane I think you are right to be a little cautious in this case. You don't want to charge w/ "fast chargers". I'd try to figure out a way to charge at the apt. (extension cord, outside outlet). Perhaps convince your apt. manager to install a level 2 charger for their renters. These really are great cars and would be worth the effort. Don't worry about the 12v battery just keep up with maintenance and replace the battery every 3 years or so.
oh my ... comparing graphs at 3:03 doesnt have same X axis
I drive a 10 year old Civic that has not cost me anything beyond routine maintenance,but for the environment,I am looking at an EV. Thinking of getting a Bolt.
nice! yeah civics are great cars. I haven't done enough research into the bolt to say definitively, but I've heard good things
You might be better with a civic hybrid.
Why?? I would still have to get oil changes,and all the bs that comes with an ICEV.@@1HeatWalk
Too expensive Honda price are crazy in 2024 Civil cost 40k to 50k crazy non hybrid
Use the vehicle built in timer to charge after midnight. I do this and I also get incentive payments from my utility company to charge during off peak times.
First off: great video. Lots of useful info.
Secondly: Nissan is a great example of what happens at a company that refuses to innovate.
Have you looked at Nissan’s overall condition? That explains a lot.
When you think about it, Nissan is the only company that has consistently made a electric car
@@macberry4048 Agreed, it's a relative success story that way, and I wasn't dissing it. But Nissan seems to be in perpetual reorganization, they booted Ghosn, and sales are way down.
👍
@@blastum Ghosn, the crook, needed to go. He belongs behind bars.
since nissan refuse to replace batteries how is this profit centre?
Just LEAF it alone 🌿
you got it 👍
Why don’t you make like a tree and get outta here.
EV manufacturers: Drive an EV help save the planet.
Us: I need a new battery please.
Also EV manufacturers: Yeah you should buy a new car.
Us: Isn't that kind of wasteful?
lol no kidding
These practices will blow in Nissans faces and they will lose customers, you stand behind your product or be ready to see people voting with their wallets ! Great content , spread the word.
Been driving Leafs from 2014, your video is very accurate.
Next problem with the battery is that if you have a cell short-circut, then Nissan will fight you as owner and claim that a short-circut is not degradation and therefore. Not covered by warranty. I tried fighting Nissan for years to no prevail.
Secondly a cell short-circut in the battery pack, will brick the car. In more modern battery packs, from other manufactured a cell short-circut will just cause the pack to isolate the shorted cell.
Nissan quoted me USD 6000,- to change 1 cell in my leafs pack.
This is a major design flaw, and Nissan don't care.
Crooks!!!
On mine they quoted 19400. Shhotenkirk nissan in katy. And I would have to wait months for them to order it.
I own a 2012 Leaf that I bought used. This video is accurate. I never recommend a Leaf as a new car purchase. As a used car they're fine because they're cheap so long as the person buying it knows what too expect. I have over 25% battery degradation right now. My replacement for the Leaf will not be another Nissan.
ahh im sorry Mike, that really sucks.
hate to see it
let me know if anything changes, I can do an update to the situation
Wow, that covered a lot of ground. I have a 2011 Leaf, sub 10,000 production SV. Purchase used with 20,000 miles for $14K. Being aware of the 1st Gen battery issues (bad chemistry) and two bars lost, I purchased a Gen 2 battery 01/2017. $5,500 shipping tax labor other needed items. The Leaf was engineered as a city EV. Rarely fast charge, sonar power at home, from 0 miles to 50 miles runs, it’s suitable. Very short highway runs 20 miles or less at 60 mph. 5.5 years, one segment lost, at 80% charge 55 to 60 miles practical range and with free/low cost L2 chargers now available such as a zoo, restaurante, Parks, the car is 100% functional at 10 years of age. Two electronic cooling system fans replaced have been the only repair required. No emissions, free electrons, very low rate of degradation, no need to charge 100%, no need to fast charge, no need to have a $50,000 Tesla for my transportation needs. Long distance? OK. A 2018 used Hyundai Ioniq PHEV acquired 10 months ago, replaced an aging hybrid SUV, for $20K Limited trim, goes 30-33 miles EV then uses 1 gallon per hour! Very cheap to operate even compared to an EV, and as per wife, no need to wait to charge. Sorry about your experiences with Nissan USA/dealership. Thanks for the report.
Great theory. Give it time and we will see 3rd party battery manufacturers and reconditioned; possibly someone will come out with an aftermarket cooling system.
yup I think you're right
Im.working on it
In Europe, specifically Finland, EV tech servicing companies replace/upgrade Gen 1 Leaf batteries at good price! In the US, an AZ company “repairs” Tesla batteries by locating and bypassing bad cells. 1 customer purchased a 15 mile range S, shipped it, battery repair was about $6,500, then sold the Tesla at a nice profit!!
Not only is the new Nissan battery guarantee awful (66% for just 100,000 miles) but I would have serious concerns whether Nissan will still be around in a few years to honour that guarantee.
Projecting outcomes without data is wreckless. I have 3 year old 63kwh battery (2021) with 36k miles that does not show the first bar of lost capacity (85%). There is some data that does not track with your projection
Just getting a 2024 40kwh leased Leaf over 3 years. Ideal UK car because its a cold cool climate here and they are CHEAP to lease. Fuel is also very expensive.
The Leaf was among the first to market with a great car. The battery degradation is a development issue fudged by active cooling which helps increase the life. But it still degrades. For now we put up with it as it still works well enough. The new battery technology coming along will give a big improvement. But will take some years to get to market in the meantime enjoy what we have its not so bad really.
How is this news in 2020 ? This has been known for years, click bait at its finest if you ask me.
Just because you knew it, doesn't mean everybody knows it. I for one, am so glad I watched this video. I was all for getting a used leaf in the 2013-2017 year range. Now, I am for sure NOT going to buy any used Leaf at all. I am going to sit back and watch the technology improve before I plunk down any money on any electric vehicle. Thank you, Sam!
We are so so tired of built in obsolescence. The company that totally goes against this trend will have a great marketing advantage.
I saw a video with a non leaf battery in the pack.
Tbh my leaf's battery got replaced completely for free. It took two weeks in the shop. And they gave me a loaner leaf.
Fan? Not so sure. I believe pack is passively cooled only. Have any pics of fan?
I read it somewhere but im not sure where. but either way, the cooling is insufficient
A fan would help pack last longer. I agree pack degradation of Leaf sucks, though packs last longer in cold climates, like Canada and Northern Midwest and ew England. Intentional? Yes, to cut costs. Luckily third party solutions are starting to appear. I wonder how 40 kWh pack will last. Nissan switched to NCM cells in 2018. The older LMO cells are clearly problematic.
It's definitely intentional. In California, 2011-2013 leafs with less than 40,000 miles can often have less than HALF the battery capacity. My 2012 has only 35 miles (4 bars out of 13) range left after only 42,000 miles. Nissan is too smart to NOT KNOW that what they are doing is bad for customers!
The cost of a liquid cooling system is only about $50 more per car, far less when amortized over THOUSANDS of cars. Yet they won't put in liquid cooling? They aren't stupid, they know they have to LOOK like they are promoting EVs while simultaneously making EV's look like garbage and supporting their dealer networks!
Wow thats mega degradation :( Gutted for ya. I hear from older leaf owners here in UK it's not so bad. I guess some of it comes down to climate.
thats absolutely brutal. yeah I agree when you look at the costs of a cooling system, it seems to me they're intentionally NOT using a system so that the batteries degrade to force people to upgrade or repair. just my opinion though
I notice the placement of those vents . . . if the battery ever goes critical, its right under the driver! AKA me FFS! . . .
I've also been wondering about the HV cable placement in EVs . . . they can't be inside the cab; in the case of a water crash all the occupants would fry!
yeah thats a good thought.. wonder what Nissan would say
They should have residual current detection so any angry pixies leaving the cables for the vehicle ground should trigger a batt disconnect.
But yeah, good point on the vent positioning.
@@calinolteanu8079 ya I was thinking grounded conduits, but a GFCI would work too.
@@SamAlexanderTH-cam judging by their behavior during rappidgate . . . They'll probably just say F off! But then again I'm cynical.
They are not degrading by 10% a year check your facts, brought one that's over 8yrs old, it still has 11 bars out of 12, battery's have never been changed.
The car has an onboard charging timer, controls the start and stop. I plug in when I get home from work, every 3rd day or so, I have it set to charge 12 am to 6 am as my utility gives me $0.09/kWh at that super off peak time. Love my leaf, 30k miles so far no issues
I've been a LEAF driver for 6 years and have no battery degradation - I live in the PNW, and don't drive on the highway much
Are you *sure* that LEAFs have air-cooled batteries? I've owned and driven LEAFs from 2011 through this summer (a 2011, a 2012, a 2016 and a 2018), and it's my impression that there is NO cooling *whatsoever* . Heat escapes from the cells by conduction through the battery pack case. I remember driving from Portland to Bellingham one winter where the ambient temperature was around freezing, and I watched, enraged, as the battery temperature gauge rose to just below the "red zone" with successive DC quick charges. I still can't feature how, with upwards of 60 degrees F of temperature differential pushing it, the battery heat still couldn't escape.
good question, it depends on the leaf, the earlier leafs use passive air cooling, and the newer ones use a small fan, however I dont know if the fan is only on the models with the larger battery or not.
I agree with you that the design of the Nissan leaf battery pack without proper thermal management is deliberate - to fleece the owners down the road when the battery pack dies prematurely from poor thermal management. Now you are forced to pay for a new battery or buy another car. This is the type of behavior that could put Nissan out of business.
I'll never buy another Nissan after my experience with my Leaf's battery!
I have no idea if that is what they are doing but it would make sense... I do love the market on used leafs though... It makes a great commuter/in town/secondary car... So much so that the original reason I got it(to save up for an electric truck) seems in crazy when the leaf is so cheap to operate and own... At least till the battery completely goes caput.
yeah the used leaf market is really inexpensive
My leaf only goes 25 miles on a charge, there's a guy in Oregon who will replace the batteries and upgrade to a bigger battery from wrecked nissans
oh thats rough, yeah the 3rd party repairs are the way to go IMO
Until I can afford a proper Tesla I’ll just keep driving my GTI 6 speed thanks.
smart choice
This is one of the reasons why I like the NIO BaaS system. NIO also put in vast amounts of money to keep the aftermarket attractive by buying back the cars and therefore maintain the high-quality level of the cars overall.
Changing your battery within 5 minutes at literally no cost other than the battery is brilliant. Plus, you can up- or downgrade your capacity depending on your use case for your vehicle.
I guess the biggest problem with the battery replacement is the dealership.
I live in Northern Europe and there are no known issues with Leaf battery degradation. There are numerous Leaf (Gen 1) used as taxis covering over 150,000 miles (not km) before the batteries are replaced. Indeed, there is very little demand for battery replacement simply because there is no need. My 2015 24kwh Leaf has done 55k miles and still show 12 bars, and I can get 90+ miles per charge. The secret? Do not let it run down below 20% SOC and charge up to only 80 - 90% SOC unless you need the extra charge.
I think Nissan just doesnt wanna spend any extra money on R&D for liquid cooling and then more money to install the cooling system per car.
yeah that could be part of it for sure
They probably don't have the money and they don't want used electric cars on the road
But Nissan is releasing the Ariya next year, and that has a liquid cooled battery. I doubt Nissan will bother to upgrade the Leaf, if they continue it.
21 62Kwh Leaf we bought 2nd hand. Best car we've ever had. No bars lost and no rapidgate either. Does warm up slowly and cool down slowly but where we live this isn't a problem. No problems with it at all so far.
That is the reason sadly i will not buy another ev from any manufacturer because after 10 years who knows if the parts will be available.
I have a 2012 leaf and have checked into the 3rd party thing.
and how'd it go for you?
They had good prices but haven't done it yet
Having owned all versions of the Leaf, I have not encountered any of these issues. Yes a TMS would be nice 1% of the time. Nissan owns it's battery plant and therefore are not forced to use a TMS due to warranty issues. All the major battery manufacturers make it mandatory to use liguid cooling for warranty issues. In 2014, Nissan introduced the "lizard" battery that has an improved chemistry and better battery longevity. The 30 kWh Leaf had a faulty LBC that under reported the true capacity. This is well known and I'm surprised you left this important information out of your video.
insideevs.com/news/326332/nissan-leaf-taxi-hits-100000-miles-still-has-all-battery-bars/
I hadn't seen that article, thanks for showing it to me!
They need to improve their battery pack design
I don't think any legacy carmaker wants any used electric cars on the road. I became really infatuated with the iMiEV after I learned that it started at 24k
👍 I'll look into it!
Why do you say that? I owned an imiev for almost four years. I miss it. I had some problems with it, but it was cool. Now I have a leaf for almost two years. It's cool.
@@Prodigious1One Theirs no effort from companies to keep cars on the road. Most car companies didn't even try to make their own motors so basically you need to talk to LG and LG doesn't pick up the phone unless you ready to spend money and place a big order
The other reason nissan is changing so much for the batteries is the DIY power system and car builders want the packs for there own use.
I think that’s exactly what they’re doing. We have a 2018 it’s been given us all kinds of problems related to the battery stating we need to service the EV system. The car shut down multiple times on us it does have about 75,000 miles on itand the day I dropped it off at service they had a salesman. Call me trying to sell me a new car. I wondered why he decided to call me and after watching this video now I realize it was because of the battery degradation and how they are dealing with it.
I had a 2011 Nissan Leaf I bought used and it got down to 40 miles of usable range. I was not happy. But I also realized that I had bought a car that had been leased by someone who lived in a very hot part of Southern California and who apparently did most of their charging with DC fast charging, not plugging it in at home.
I am purchasing a 2018 Nissan leaf, and yes it still does not have active thermal management, but the battery chemistry has been reformulated three times since 2011, and the software that caused “rapid gate” has been upgraded. Most of my driving and charging will be done with my level two charger at home.
I would also point out that in colder places, northern latitudes in Europe, North America, and Asia, there are 10 year old Nissan Leafs that have experienced virtually no battery degradation at all. Since the car is designed in Japan, perhaps the engineers just don’t get it about the way the rest of the world drives, or how hot it is in the rest of the world. The new Nissan Arica will have an active thermal management system in its battery.
There are a lot of variables with this issue, so to posture it is this absolute flaw that will affect every leaf and every leaf owner is a bit of an exaggeration. I would refer all of you to transport evolved show on their own Nissan leaf in Portland Oregon, and it’s 10 years of service with no battery degradation.
I live in Australia and I bought a 24kwh 2013 model with 87% battery health
Had it for about 2 months, being the middle of summer here (30-40°C average) with about 20% of my charging being at DC fast chargers (the rest being 240V home charging or level 2 public charging) the battery health is down to 83%
The degradation is substantial, I knew what to expect, but I didn't think the degradation would be THAT much, and considering this is my first ever EV, I likely won't be buying a Nissan when I upgrade unless they make one with active battery cooling
There’s a reason why used Leaf battery cells are usually 60-70 capacity and easy to extract…No liquid cooling. Tesla’s have a heat pump system that is years ahead of the competition.
idk my chevy volt is the same age as most of these leafs. it used the same pouch style lipol cells that are basically big phone batteries. i have 130k miles on my car and my partner has a 1 year older volt with 120k miles on it. we both have zero degradation. i know how the volt saves the extra 6kwh and uses that to offset degradation, but its at the point where im getting 50+ miles of range out of 10kwh on my 2013 volt, which is better than most leafs of the same age... except i have a gas motor so i can use that 50miles of ev range on every single journey and have no range anxiety. chevy accidentally made the best ev in 2010 and no one cared coz they thought it was another prius. now everyones flocking to phev's with half the range and paying 5-10x as much as i paid for mine used. crazy
My 2018 leaf has done 141K at the moment, when it reached around 110K I saw mega issues arise, I’ve spent £5,500 replacing battery modules and while the there are less fault lights my 150 mile range is 60 at best… this video was great, 100% accurate of my experience with a leaf. I won’t be buying another leaf… Tesla it is !!
Maybe do a piece on the Hyundai electric cars. They barely get any coverage.
yeah good idea! I've been checking them out, they're interesting for sure
Hyundai , barely have any sales.
@@markplott4820 it would be nice to know why. They have a lot of models
@@khuo0219 - In America , Hyundai and KIA both have ZERO confidence in their Vehicles.
so, the sell ONLY in ZEV states , that have advantages with EV sales .
SOME states dont allow BEV sales .
antiquated Dealership laws.
so, Hyundai has low Sales numbers and Ships too few cars to those States , making Hyundai EV hard to find ( KONA EV & e-NIRO). Hyundai Ionic is easier to find however.
Any 2:44 you're comparing degradation over time and on the Tesla's case over milage. It would have been better to keep the comparison homogeneous. I can make 150000 mi in a year, most people maybe over 4. It's not a adecuate example but from my experience with the Prius, battery degradation keeps going even if the car is never used, that's why Prius batteries are said to last around 10 years disregatding milage. There's a counter argument to be said: in Europe, I don't know about the us, you can buy the Leaf for significantly less and rent the battery, this way, for the duration of the rent, it's covered by all degradation and malfunctions, and it's not that expensive either.
Anyway, I was in the market exactly for a Leaf, thank you, I will considerate only cars with proper battery cooling.
9:30 sounds like ny ex after 4+ yrs
Leaf and Tesla now (2018+) share a near identical battery warranty. 8 years, 70% capacity, and 100k miles.
Similar to the 30kWh Leafs, the 90kWh Teslas are seeing above normal degradation.
the warrantees are similar, but the data shows that in warm climates the leafs batteries degrade much quicker.
@@SamAlexanderTH-cam in post 2018 Leafs? I haven’t seen anything to support that yet. I have seen many model 3s down 15+% already.
@@douglasalanthompson I haven't seen as much good data with the 2018+ leafs, largely because they are so new. but time will tell.
Tesla is so proactive about battery protection that they use climate control to maintain battery temps as needed, even when parked, which can lead to some pretty big losses just storing the vehicle. Wonder if Tesla's new batteries, particularly LFP, might reduce cooling needs and those vampire drains.
yup, exactly that. but it makes the batteries last so much longer, its more than worth it IMO
Chevy Bolt uses the climate control system as well...
LFP will reduce the need for active temperature control, but the fact that LFP has a little over half the energy density, the LFP models will have substantially reduced range compared to the models that use NMC/NCA cells
Even though the LEAF cannot do extremely long road trips, think about the utility it does offer. With its 200 mile range for the LEAF Plus, charging every night. If you never used public charging and drove just as far as you could based on your home charging range, you could drive 73,000 miles/year. That's 200 miles times 365 charging each night. Most people do 12-15k miles, so about a fifth of that number. The LEAF can still do loooooooads of miles for people at a quite affordable price point when you get one on sale, which is happening right now worldwide.
yeah I agree, it has its uses for sure, I just worry that poor engineering/maybe something more nefarious is stopping the leaf from being an awesome long lived car
Stopped listening 4 minutes in. This was old news even at the time of recording. Nissan fixed the problem back in 2019 while still using passive cooling. I've had my (62 kWh) Leaf now for almost 5 years and my battery is still functioning at 100%.
This hasn’t been my experience here in Europe.
That 30kWh Leaf was software problem. In reality it degrades much slower than 1.st. gen.
Sometimes buyng the more expensive product(tesla) ends up being the cheepest option
As the owner of a first generation Leaf I think this video is spot on. Nissan is still selling Leaf's with no active cooling system in their 2021 model Leaf's and aren't supporting owners of the older models. If someone decides to do a class action lawsuit against Nissan forcing the to buy back older model Leaf's at original purchase price, I'm in. I just don't see that happening. So, I'm stuck with a Leaf with 50 miles range. The only solution i see if eventually buying a solid state battery for the car, one that won't require a thermal management system and will give my 2011 Leaf a range around 300 miles.
Given Nissans handling of this whole battery system i would advice everyone to steer clear of any Nissan product, electric and ICE.
My 2011 Leaf's battery went below spec at 40k miles, was replaced under warranty, then again at 80k, same problem. For a first-gen mass-market EV, it was good and I loved driving it. But I bought two Teslas and there's no going back now. But if you've got a really short commute, I wouldn't dissuade anyone from buying a cheap used Leaf.
yeah great points, for short commutes, the used leafs are quite affordable👍
A used Tesla would be even better
Its a 3 phase technology in a car anyone young looking for a great career opportunity its a brilliant market to repair the fuel pack and replacing compromised cells. If only I was young again.....
Old Car Company With Their Old Value, Screw The Consumers.
👍
Very informative thank you
I was literally just telling my girlfriend how terrible the Nissan Leaf was the other day nice video I'll be sure to show this to her we were looking at getting a Tesla and she asked about a Nissan Leaf
haha glad I could help. but I'm not saying its a terrible vehicle, but their battery thermal design sure is
If you need to save money on the short run then leaf. But off your have the money now then Tesla!
@@Prodigious1Onewhat if you want an EV with a proper battery cooling system, but you don't want to have to look at the center console to see how fast you're going, and don't have the money for a Tesla model S
@@mwbgaming28 I don't know. But some evs have better energy economy than others.
@@Prodigious1One my point is the only Tesla I'd want to own would be a model S because it has a gauge cluster behind the steering wheel like every other car on the market instead of off to the side like every other Tesla
Dont buy another leaf and let them know your not.
I have a 2018 Tesla Model 3, and using Scan My Tesla that has 7.33% degradation... And only 55,000kms. My mom's 2012 Leaf has about 16% degradation after 8 years. My other 2017 Volt has 99.7% of it's original capacity. So Tesla's do degrade and not immune to significant degradation due to Super Charging. But I agree that Nissan's support has been dreadful at best. No question on that.
Nissan Leaf owner here. If I got 50% of the original miles I would be VERY happy. Presently (No joke) I get 30 miles per charge and have 50,000 miles on the car. Nissan LIED top to bottom. Cost to replace the battery? $9999.99 (but not $10,000...). Nissan claims that the 30 miles per charge that I get at 50,000 miles is equal to the 70-80% they CLAIM I would get at 100,000 miles. Ohh by the way, you do not get a NEW battery for the $10,000. You get a USED "RECONDITIONED Battery.
We were trying to decide which was the worst car ever produced: The Leaf or the Yugo. We decided the Leaf as the Yugo got about 80,000 miles before you junked it, and this will not get 60,000. As for the making outrageous amount on small servicing I was charge TWICE the high amount for the first servicing (adjustments only) even though I provided a coupon from Nissan for a "Free First Servicing". I will never buy a car from them again. If you think I am kidding feel free to provide a way to get in touch with you, and I will, and verify everything. This car is a RIPOFF as you have to divide the price by the miles you get to find out how much it costs to drive per mile. It is also NOT environmental, as Electric cars are worst for the Environment until they hit 60,000 miles, and this one will be junked before then. I am looking at Chevy Bolts (with active battery cooling) already. FYI I live on the coast, usually charged 110V and occasionally charged 220 (once a month).
They need better cooling and CCS
I don't know that the "critical flaw" you're discussing - which isn't secret nor unknown about the product - is actually a flaw. When they released the 62kwh battery, they reconfigured the battery pack to have 3 cells per "unit" and that drastically reduced the heat dissipation while fast charging (heat has never been a problem with level 2 home charging). It actually doesn't even have a fan, the Leaf is 100% passively cooled. I don't know that the situation is as bad as some of the claims in your video, however I'm aware there are some customers that have had premature battery problems. But I don't think its the majority of Leaf vehicles sold, I do know a 2018 40kwh Leaf owner and it has lost less than 10% over the last 4 years, that's with fast charging occurring. I do think car companies in general, partially because of the economic paradigm we live in, like building 'disposable' products rather than fixable ones. The same is true of a Tesla, they offer battery replacements, but they are prohibitively expensive and not worth it. We need more 3rd party, aftermarket battery servicing for EVs to make them last because the EV motors and other parts are lasting much longer than ICE cars.
LEAF owner here. It’s not “cheap af.” It’s actually very expensive for what you get. Unfortunately I live in a RHD country and we get every Tesla two years late and with a 30% markup. Sucks a lot.
ouch, yeah thats rough :/
Australia?
That description sounds like Australia
@@mwbgaming28 Japan 😕
@@jonathanfields4ever well I guess we aren't the only ones who get royally fucked over by the world
Because it has no liquid cooling, you can't fast-charge the battery without causing damage to the battery. So that car is pretty much limited to the slow 240V home-charging that most people will be giving it, and the Leaf is not a car you want to use on long road trips where you have to charge it while you are on a trip. Also: DO NOT top-up charge the battery as that will kill the battery quickly. Only charge it after it drops down to below half-full.
If you have the 62kwh version then not fully charging it is reasonable, but if you have the 24kwh version, you're essentially throwing away driving range that is at a HUGE premium
80% charge on the 24kwh model only gives you about 120km total
On the 62kwh version you would have around 250km total at 80% charge
Just wrong, in fact and conclusion, on so many fronts I'm not even going to bother explaining.
Besides the one phase AC charging and the ChaDeMo DC charging nonsense.
All very true Sam. I'm in New Zealand and all our Leafs up to 2019 came second hand from Japan. We already have several successful small local battery service people and we can get a reconditioned 24kw battery for about 6k ; that's about 4.5k US.
One local shop has developed some cheap converters that allow a straight swap of 30kw into a 24kw frame. Check out EV's Enhanced on TH-cam.
Buy a couple year old used leaf for super cheap if you really want that, or an Ariya or something else with battery cooling.
Nissan is Japan originated brand and they designed the car having in mind Japan car market. There old cars have to go through strict inspections so car owner who can afford a car is forced to have new instead of keeping old running. So battery degradation over 3 year for the Japan car market was not a problem so it wasn't addressed. So this explanation in TH-cam, you can try searching for something similar too
interesting take, thanks!
The chevy bolt is the only option for most of the u.s for an afforable used ev that isn't a piece of junk
I like the bolt but it has its issues too
I kept my older vehicle a lot longer than I wanted to and saved for 3 years to be able to purchase my Tesla M3 SR+. Having a big down payment made it affordable.
Used Leafs are a good value if you only need 70 miles and don’t live in a hot climate. Also, if you live in a place with lots of chargers, many of them free, like Bay Area. The highest trim of the early 30kWh Leafs have DC for 50kW charging.
@@jameshoffman552 yeah for sure, they have their place, the range (when on an older battery) can make them harder to use
@@thadlm2698 smart choice!