Training Without Conflict® Podcast Special Edition: Karen Overall's Deep Breath Protocol For Dogs
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มิ.ย. 2024
- Training Without Conflict® Podcast Special Edition: Dr. Karen Overall's Deep Breath Protocol For Dogs
Welcome to this short solo podcast! Todays topic is fascinating and controversial: Dr. Karen Overall's deep breath protocol for dogs.
Imagine if your stressed out or aggressive, fearful, anxious dog (pick one), could take few deep breaths and instantly calm themselves down-sounds like a superpower, right?
Well, Dr. Overall suggests that with her Deep Breath Protocol, dogs can learn to do just that, taking deep breaths in the most stressful situations to Self-Regulate and improve their emotions on their own.
Get ready for a fun ten-minute listen as we dig into the canine psyche, debunk some “protocols”, and have a few laughs along the way.
Share your thoughts in the comments, can this be done or wishful thinking?
I can not imagine myself charging people money to train their dog how to deep breathing. They would propably think that i am an idiot 😂
Unfortunately, this is the world we live in once again. People will believe almost anything. Critical thinking skills have been lost it seems.
It depends entirely on how awesome your credentials are. Most behaviourists seem to observe the dog, drug the dog and are done.
@@jenniferhirschfieldsdrt9275 THE LAST 4 YEARS PROVED THAT THE GOVT SAID JAB THE PEOPLE JUMPED
@@damaristighe3227 I feel like even credentials need to be viewed with a critical eye. Given the ability to buy credentials and graduate despite having radical ideology, a grain of salt is still required.
@@jenniferhirschfieldsdrt9275 Sorry it was a sarcastic comment, too many people are overawed by experts whether they make sense or not.
This force free movement gets more and more crazy.
The worse is they don’t train some dogs with real problems.
Thank you very much for this well-founded and well-summarized criticism. It's nice to see that someone is questioning something, dealing with it seriously and coming to a reasoned conclusion. I wish there were more of these high-quality discussions.
I benefit a lot from Ivan's podcasts!
She can't profess this without functional MRI study during this procedure. I don't know who could believe this without scientific proof great video Ivan
Excellent podcast! Thanks for exposing these frauds, Ivan.
I agree with Ivan from the perspective of a teacher of the Bach Flower Essences. One of the most difficult things for my students to understand is there is difference between Emotions and Thoughts. As the owner of 2 incredible wonderful and talented genius Malinois, I would also like to comment, the instinctual drive operates their work in the world thru conditioning. Their ability to create partnership with me is thru their highly sensitive emotional awareness. This combination is what makes relationship with animals a nurturing one. It also is what separates the animals from humans. We have to journey thru life with our mental set ups which are ALL negative. It is our balance emotional state which keeps us in connection with our souls. Thank you Ivan for all that you do and I hope to afford a course with you one day. Peace
Ivan, let her try to handle Tarzan for half a day with her breathing protocols and let's see how it goes. Would be fun to watch.
Nothing surprises me any more in regards to dogs & training 😞.
However I have hope. Would be very interesting if Karen Overall could sit down with you for your podcast 😉👊🐾
👏👏👏👏Brave and necessary!!!✊✊✊
Wim Hoff would be laughing his lungs out watching this!
I dont beleave it.. Someone with that kind of education puts forward something like this.. Blows my mind.. Appreceat your critical thinking approach here Ivan.. LOL yep I agree, BS it is.. ;-)
When theories like this are put before trainers that have achieved high standards, have many years experience and have extensive knowledge we see this as an insult to our intelligence. This results in dismissing this and it therefore goes unchallenged, so well played for you taking on and exposing this garbage.
Thank you and that is exactly how I feel about all these nonsense techniques. I also just think that people who come in to dog training with all these weird mind games have been overeducated on theory before they developed a sense for working around dogs. I just feel like the way these trainers see and interact with dogs feels very weird, unnatural, and clunky. I got the privilege of working around dogs and performing basic husbandry with a huge variety of breeds and ages for several years, grooming, handling, walking, feeding, medicating, and even helping raise a few litters with an amazing breeder before I got into dog training and I am so glad I did it that way first. I got to understand dogs first and achieve strong foundation work in my own skills before I attempted to start to go for big game and train dogs with behavioral problems. That is what I feel these academic types are missing, it shows, and they have no context to understand what they are missing out on by going the "paper trainer" route.
Super podcast Ivan! Keep up the great work.
@4:00 🤣 💀
@5:55 Agreed. I seriously question it also
Plausible sounding 🐂 💩 🤣
“really way out there” 🤡 Agreed!
Thanks for another dose of wisdom and common sense, Ivan!
I would like to see my Boxer develop a serene, more philosophical approach to life.
Where can I see the videos that document Dr Overall training dogs to do this?
Sounds like she has educated herself into believing her own fantasy… please, people can’t even calm themselves 100% by deep breathing. I believe all animals, people included, learn and control themselves based on consequences, cause and effect. It’s not that complicated.
It is funny that you try this protocoll and get the result as I Did 😂
Looking for the inhale of my dog and try to mark it was really a confusing task for my dog, even if I lower the value of the reinforcement short to zero...
A thinking dog like mine is puzzeled what I may want and driven to find out -- but unfortunately he doesnt relax in this process.
Always I was expecting me to be the one not clever enough to understand to make it right🙈
Same thing (tried on 3 dobermans)
Watching🤘🏻🐺
Ivan "The Voice of Reason" Balabanov.
Man, I can't believe anyone shamelessly charging people to be taught this. She should be ashamed.
Another podcast please!!!!!!!!!!!
🤦♀🤦♀🤦♀again 💯agree with you
❤
I wonder if this has anything to do with Caesar Milan's "nose, eyes, ears" philosophy. Like, when he's dealing with a reactive dog, he'll say that the dog's eyes are in control. Then, he'll wait until the dog starts sniffing the air, which means that the dog's nose has taken back over, which shows that the dog is now in a more curious state as opposed to a reactive one. I wonder if what Dr. Overall calls a deep breath and Caesar's eyes/nose theory are one in the same.
Good question. Caesar Milan is a bit Cosmic in his explanations, but he's observant and seems effective at problem solving.
I dont think so. I get the picture of what Ivan paint for me is Karen want people to teach a behavior (start breathing deep on it self when the dog realises it got aroused in order to calm itself. Or on cue as backup) and Cesar is using a inate behavior as a flag when the dog is calm enough to be able to listen to him for further instructions.
But ofc, i can be wrong.
@@kulan9379 No, I agree with you completely. All I'm saying is that I wonder if Overall saw the change in behavior as the dog switched from using its eyes to its nose and mistakenly believed that the dog was deep breathing. And then, because of that mistake, she built a whole protocol around a flawed idea. I read a post on the reactive dog subreddit lastnight and someone was talking about how they had started doing a "deep breathing protocol" with their dog and that they had seen their dog taking a few deep breaths because of the training. I wonder if these people are just seeing the way their dog's behavior changes when they switch to being in that more curious mindset, where they start using their noses to explore the trigger. They wrongly credit Overall's protocol because they think it taught their dog how to use deep breathing techniques, when in reality, it was the desensitization and counter conditioning that they didn't realize they were doing. Make sense?
@@Chasenhaws i dont know. Impossible to know, gonna give you probably the worst awnser you did not want to get, that there is different awnser on every individual doing it.
The thing i think is that we do alot sometimes unconsciously sometimes contiously. Anthropomorphing animals just as Ivan says.
I see it alot as dairy farmer. I know what it real and what is not when i see videos on Facebook and so on. And 99% of comments from random people doing comments is of anthropomorphic type. A dog is very alike a human, cow is complete opposite. Yet you have a person explaining exactly how it is but still they say stuff that is bonkers.
Overall should thanks to all her education dont anthropomorphic any animals but i think she does BUT i say this as a guy with zero knowledge of the lady. Zero! Many of these force free is so ingrained that it should work but no true high end results, some low standards results and when they dont need true off leash obedience walking through the city and they can play with the well bred dogs if they find a open field without distractions they say good enough. The ones that knows about training are willingly giving up higher standards of behavior from the dogs beacuse they claim to be so much more ethical then one that have higher level of behavior and obedience through some use of aversives. And then they lie to every day dog owners in hope of they having well bred dogs and if they are having to euthenise the dog they say colletheral damage.
And then thanks to a combination off hope that is strengthen by all of overalls edgucation and fancy degrees combined with anthropomorphic this breathing thing took off.
Just listen to miss Gibson in the podcast, she described it beautifully. According to me her gotcha moment blew up in her face, but she said that a human wants status in their group they subscribe to. And then they think a theory, it could work. But then they dont provide actual proof of dogs that do it but its a highly educated person telling it, the every day trainer say that they are not skilled enough. Or thanks to the status within the group thing, some lie about success beacuse they want the status thing.
I dont know if i awnsered your question, and i am not English speaking so sorry for some choose of words. But this is how i think of the situation at least.
95% is i think is unfair comparison between human and animal. They probably want good but have not thought it through. People with "new ideas" rarely have thought things through all the way.
So to probably awnser your question. Probably a case of just anthropomorphism combined with want to have high status within the force free community.
I used my dogs nose to overcome gunfire. I don’t have a PHD. They dog learned to search for food after gun fire. Basically what bird dogs do.
So, basically all her credentials get her in this case is one big appeal to authority fallacy. I truly think I have now heard it all where crazy dog training is concerned. I sure as hell hope you bought a used copy of that book.
Next they wonder why so many would get bitten when approaching, a relaxing friendly dog, closing their mouth to take deep breath.
I’d say it’s comedy but also it’s tragedy that this is even something ANYbody believes 🤦♀️
Overall I'd say this lady is pretty cookoo
And here is the work of Sylwia Matulewska, Polish SATS Trainer: th-cam.com/users/shortsTDh0wjue6QI?si=gyOWQFM4CVI-mmxM Note, dog at liberty, bounding after deer, voluntary recall, no e-collar.
Kaycee you are showing me a dog that comes when called. (Or came back at least during the short clip). This doesn’t impress me at all.
What’s your point?
@@IvanBalabanov Could you not see the deer she was chasing but peeled off of?
So the two videos I posted were both of dogs recently managing themselves, on their own, under varying degrees of stimulus. The pit bull video shows before and after and the fact that the owner does not even cue the dog. The dog manages her own behavior, after cognitive training.
Hi Ivan - Did you not notice the deer?
You surprised me when you stated that dogs can't learn to cognitively manage their emotions, but they can and do - regularly. So, if you are not aware of this, I sent two videos to illustrate, which I thought you might enjoy.
If your arena is closed, maybe a lightning recall does not impress. In sport dog training the dogs can be beautifully precise and controlled. but the environment is also. There are no wild animals popping out of hiding. the dogs are in closer proximity, etc. So, this video impresses me.
Especially since the dog is recalling at liberty off of hot pursuit of a deer, which is seen leading the dog
More important than it being an impressive piece of training, is the fact that the dog is making the decision to leave this deer. She is managing her own arousal. Sylwia's other dog no longer even chases deer... or cranes or rabbits or... anything - although this dog was incorrigible for about 6 years, and had a lightning recall EXCEPT for certain extreme temptations. The dog now no longer succumbs to any temptation. Sylwia posts lots of evidence of her dogs abstaining from chasing game, all done cognitively, without an e-collar.
You admire Jenifer Zelig's work. Some of the best work she has done was teaching sea lions to lie very still, at the surface of the water for up to 60 minutes at a time, without any touch or food or even direct contact with a trainer, so that scientists could take basal metabolic data, without the artifact of fear, or activity (2 variables which can damage the data). The sea lions understood the job and voluntarily managed their emotions and activity.
I enjoyed your podcast. Let me know if you want links to more videos showing dogs cognitively managing their own stress and emotions.
Which exactly course covers the influence on emotional state on the TWC web site? Thanks
I was questioning en myself, if I'm too closed-minded, when I first heard of Karen and her overall BS :D
Maybe she is a genius… think about all the rich people out there that buy into the force free philosophy. They can now put their kids and dogs in therapy. MONEY GRAB!11😂😂
Exactly, Karen and the rest of these force-free academics are total frauds taking advantage of the ignorant.
“No way dogs can understand the physiological benefits of deep breathing”
As far as I can tell neither human nor dog needs to understand the underlying chemistry or causes to benefit from the effect of actually doing it.
Overall, I think she is wrong and the likes of her are responsible for more dogs ending up in kill shelters than any other reason.