The Secret To Making Minimalist Drum Miking Techniques Sound Great (Glyn Johns, Recorderman, etc...)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ค. 2024
- In this video I'll show you what is, perhaps THE MOST IMPORTANT variable in capturing great drum sounds with minimalist drum miking that, for some reason, never seems to get discussed. I discuss it here.
Come join me for the best part of your day (perhaps your week? :)
0:00 Introduction
0:59 Glen Johns' technique
2:45 My recording setup for this video
4:57 The big reveal!
5:31 1st demonstration
8:53 2nd demonstration
10:54 Observations and explanation
12:43 One more thing...
15:09 Outro and thanks
The video I referred to that actually talks briefly about drums used for minimalist miking (starts at 2:40) - • How to record drums wi...
I remember reading an article, an interview with Jimmy Page, where Page described John Bonham as a “master craftsman” of drum tuning, and said that Bonham would tune his drums higher so that they would throw the sound into the overhead mics.
Hi. Me, again. My man, you make videos that look like they go on a channel with 250,000 subscribers but it's just us few couple thousand. This place won't stay small for long, you watch.
Thank you so much for the kind words!! I know content is king (and I hope my content is useful and interesting to folks), but I do want the videos to look appealing as well, and I'm slowly learning how to improve things over time. Your encouragement is so appreciated! Cheers!
I agree, the production quality is excellent as well as the content!
It will tho sadly as drumming TH-cam isn't really a big thing.theres alot of ppl in it,but not very many catch all nets. It's not that it can't happen,it just hasn't. Maybe estepario?
You simply explain things so well, especially when you explain how new technology can can be utilized to achieve old school sound. This video was very useful . Tuning up to midrange, for this type of mic placement, is what I was missing. Thanks man !
I preach this in most sessions to artists and drummers alike. Tune up the drums, get some tonality in the room. Enough with over muted close mic'd bedroom style drum sounds! Also, so much easier to mix the drums further back, that air and sustain does wonders.
Great observation with the snare and the 14" tom! What we drummers do not have in mind is that everything works on the basis of "the law of resonance". If two same or close Frequencies meet, the amplitude doubles! This is why you get the fullest sound on your drums if you tune your reso and batter head to the same pitch (Frequency). This is also the reason why your snare wires start vibrating to your 10" tom.They have mostly the same tuning range ( roughly between 170Hz and 230 Hz). If we would fully understand the law of resonance, we would have no problems with drum sound at all. And it is not complicated to understand. Great job my friend with your observations in all your videos!
Excellent !
Probably the most important video about micking drums of all TH-cam ! Thank you for putting words on something so underrated and yet so important !
Wow, thanks!
Mic positioning was my favorite class in college. I still love getting sounds out of rooms and placements.
I also liked that the camera just changed ever so slightly. Really helped to know when it was changing. Which I should be using my ears not my eyes. But it helped me cue a listening change. As always man love the video. Glad I found it a little bit ago.
I can’t count how many times I’ve tried the GJ method and had to use close mics because the toms just didn’t speak. I can’t wait to try this out. And you’re right, I’ve never seen anyone mention this! Great job, great video production too. The work you put in really shows and makes a huge difference. Thx Joel!
Thanks so much for your kind remarks!
Dropping pure gold nuggets for free..! You're channel has got to become one of the biggest in no time. I'm blown away.. Thank you SO much!
Wow, thank you for sharing!
Another awesome video. You always manage to find something new to share and your delivery is spot-on! Thanks so much. Keeeeep'emcomin'!
Great stuff! As always!!
Such a fantastic video!!!! Thanks for doing these!
FANTASTIC, Joel! Love these videos.
Amazing information! Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us!
Extremely high quality videos... always a helpful trove of information and demos 👍
Your videos and information is immensely appreciated. Thank you so much for sharing this valuable information. This is now one of my favorite drum channels ❤
Thanks for this, great video, love the tech talk as well haha
Both are excellent! But the big boys are wow…full. Snare is resonating differently with the sizes. This explains Bonhams sound. Big drums tuned up…like the jazz guys he grew up listening to….think Big Band…and wide open. Carl Palmer also does this. 24” bds…pretty much wide open. When you tune like this, the feel is completely different and you have to play differently. Love this thought process and hey… experiment! That’s the joy! Keep up the great work! Now….where’s my drum key? Gotta tune up!
Also, it’s frakin Bonham. He and Ringo and Keith Moon jammed at Ringo’s house and Ringo described that each person sounded totally different, on his kit. (And that they physically held down the kick when Keith Moon played).
That whole snare tonality changing thing was fascinating.
Just discovered your channel tonight and I’m 2 videos in and digging the content. Great work!
Thank you Joel, I'm so glad I ran across your videos. I've watched a multitude of hours with so many other youtubers which I have learned lots. I like your perspective, keep up the great work!
This info is golddd❤❤❤ ty ty ty, subbed here. Love the snares in the background by the way. Nway, will try this, i just experimented with matched pair
I have a hefty 12’ tom (vintage pearl export). Your video now explains why my snare also sounds chunky and whistle-y even though it sounds higher snappier when I play it by itself or while tuning.
Excellent thanks
Couldn’t agree more, I have found the same thing. Great video and beautiful playing 🔥 Thanks 🙏
This is a pure master class discovery/demonstration. I am over trying to mix a bazillion mics on a kit and wanted the GJ technique to work, but like you demonstrated, the toms are too weak. This is the missing piece to make GJ work. I cannot wait to try this! Thanks for sharing!!
...great stuff, thank you very much. Cheers from Germany.
Cool thanks!
SUPERB! I've heard of this the past several years... Tuning up for farther or little to no mics. I'm so glad you've expanded this further in regards to diameter at midrange. Thank you Joel! Keep rocking & keep up the great work. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. 🤓
Great information. Thanks
Dude, your tones are killer!
Thanks for this video very well explained
Love it, thanks for the awesome tipp. Nowadays, everyone seems to go to direct micing way too quickly, so it's really hard to find anything about smaller, cheaper micing setups thst still sound great
Absolutely the sympathetic vibration is causing that! Great videos. The only subscription I have on a bell.
Now.. we got to talk snare drums!!
I LOVE snare drums (have wayyyy too many... need to thin the herd). But I"m all ears!!
Excellent analysis of this topic! 👍 Also, I just read Glyn's book - he say's he never used a tape measure!
Wonderful comparisons. The most interesting aspect was how much brighter or darker the snare was perceived to be in relation to the toms tuning! The resonance was absolutely noticeable.
definitely a game changer demonstration for me personally, especially connecting some dots with the tone & articulation I hear on bonham recordings and have struggled to understand. Thank you!
Bonham's preference for higher tunings really helped the drums translate with Glynn's approach to miking.
Oh my God? This is so true!! No wonder my 10" rack sounds like a floor tom. Thanks for enlightening me
Whoa the bigger and higher tuned drums really got the sound
DrumDotPizza, thanks so much for this content and sharing your knowledge with the rest of us.
Anytime, I’ve been in a situation to experiment with the Glen Johns technique, I’ve experienced the exact thing your video demonstrates so perfectly. When I pitched the drums up it fixed that issue, but then the pitch of the drums were higher than I prefer.
I now refer to it as the Glyn Johns minimal micing for use with larger drums technique.
Perfect name!! :)
Positive proof to the old saying, big drums give big sound… really digging this channel; Thanks So Much for doing what you’re doing here!
Thanks so much!!
Joel , you're Great, solid drummer and schooling me like a Pro !
Thank you so much!
Great video, Joel. I'm just starting to research equipment for home recording my kit, ie, audio interface, mics, etc. And, also methods on how to record, ie, Recorderman technique, Glenis Johns, etc. So, this was really informative, I hadn't come across anything about tuning your toms up higher. It's going to be a steep learning curve, but as the old adage says, 'in for a penny, in for a pound'. Cheers.
great stuff! same principal as putting a weight on the sustain pedal of a piano and micing the piano while another instrument in the room is being tracked ads harmonics.
Used your tom sounds as a reference!
Thanks
Really useful video. I pick pickup from Rick Beato's video that higher tuning of the toms was part of Bonham's sound that Gly Johns tried to capture. But, I didn't realise it also works well with this technique. Super useful to know, especially since I only have four mics / four preamps. And yes, the +10db on a nice saturating pre was something I picked up from Glyn's video where he was instructing. And I had thought that even some tape saturation could have played a part. Especially since Glyn was pretty early in using tape as a creative effect - and was clearly aware of the sonic imprint things like pres had - and so seems unlikely he was oblivious to tape's potential for pleasant saturation too. I wonder if tape saturation, compression and gluing might be the final polish on this technique. On the frontend, I think it also takes a drummer who can play evenly, balance toms (especially floor, which can boom) and be particularly articulate on the cymbals.
Excellent content Joel. Keep 'em coming. My favorite part of your videos is watching you play. It looks as if you're still using the open-handed technique á la Simon Phillips.
Hey, Steve, thanks! Good to hear from you! I can't say I've really analyzed Simon's technique, but I do appreciate the comparison!
I'll never forget watching Simon from 20 feet away at Zildjian Day 1985 in Dallas (you were with us there, right? Summer before your sophomore year?). That video is on YT, BTW... have you watched it? I've watched it a few times, but still can't see any hint of us in the audience!
Now if I can just learn to lead with my left....
@@drumdotpizza Zildjian Day in Dallas was extraordinary. I wish I still had my grey t-shirt. Simon and Vinnie were mind blowing. I remember Lenny White playing a keyboard with his left hand while he laid down a groove. Tommy Aldridge and Tony Williams too. What a day.
Amazing, Joel.. The one I’d been waiting on! 14 rack 🙈 my biggest tom is 14 😂 I have a 16 but I never use it, just 12 and 14 fl or 10 14/ 10 12 14.. Thanks buddy 🙏🏻
Top notch knowledge. Back to the basics. No gear BS. Just knowledge and golden use of the ear. Heard the takes blindfolded and didnt need to know which take was the right one.
I'm 25 y.o. aspiring live sound engineer and i guarantee many many engineers are just gear snobs that never experienced a blind a test.
Your channel was recommended today by Dean of the Dead Milkmen on their Big Questions series :) Made me giddy.
Awesome! Thanks, Dean, for the recommendation, and thank YOU for being here!!
Goddamnit this sounds SO good
Glyn Johns is definitely my favorite drum mic’ing method
Yes ! Excellent video, and just general concise, no-bullshit explanations. Drum tuning is an important aspect to the sound, which tends to be neglected. Even good drummers or sound technicians sometimes don't know how to tune, which I find very strange, since it's not really that difficult. I can't tell you how many kits I've seen with 10 lbs of gaffer tape on the heads because they didn't want to bother with changing/tuning the heads, etc. Jazz drummers (back in the day...) used to tune their drums high in order to maximize projection for the other musicians and for the audience ; but also, to maximize rebound, and change the feel of the sticks on the head (which can facilitate playing). And yes, Johns does mention running the mic gain hot.
Learned it in 1980s sound engineering class in college
Thanks for the content. Do you have any experience with internal miking such as the May Internal System? I'm looking to mic a 10pc kit.
I don't, other than with a bass drum, so I can't really say. Such a system would greatly simplify miking a large kit, but I just can't comment on the quality of sound. I'm very sorry. Thank you for your question, though!
Fab video, thanks. It's similar to the way you need to tune up higher in live situations when the drums are unmiced or minimally miced compared to having a full micing rig. I remember playing pub gigs with my drums tuned low and thuddy and realising that they were inaudible (toms anyway) although that sound worked great in recording or rehearsal settings. Tuning up a bit was the solution. I believe big band drummers would tune the toms higher too to get them to cut through, batters high but resos low.
Precisely! Back before drums were individually miked the only way you'd hear the toms is to tune them up (listen to the rack tom on Beatles 'She Loves You' for a common example of how drums were typically tuned back then). Only when drums started getting individual mics (Geoff Emerick used 8 mics on Ringo's drums on Abbey Road!!) could drummers start tuning down (like Ringo did on Abbey Road) and get solid, intimate sounds. That tuning won't translate with minimal/distant/area miking. Gotta bring them up to project!!
Thanks for your comment!
@@drumdotpizza Thanks for highlighting the matter, it's really useful 😀
As a life long percussionist I know old school conga players generally prefer larger diameter congas tuned mid range.
Not only for a better experience as a player but even more so for the way the congas project warmer and deeper at the distance of the listeners (dancers), which in my mind relates a lot to the positioning of the microphones in setups
like these (as opposed to close miking).
Thank you for this insight, it makes a whole lot of sense and opens up possibilities for recording a larger percussion setup without a ton of microphones. A neutral sounding room may be key for these techniques, and that's what I'm working on.
Thanks again, greetings from Holland. Subscribed!
I learned it and a bunch of other cool tricks because I was poor. Struggling for a sound teaches you allot. My rich friends never got very good because they always threw money at this craft instead of hours of carefully listening and trying everything
Nice psych red kit btw
I personally love the sound Glyn and Ringo got with the towels on the toms and snare. I know it chokes them down quite a bit but I always liked that sound with this mic technique.
Interesting and good video, for sure. Highlighting differences in tuning that eliminate all that naturally occurring mud can be a real ear opener in understanding for many of your listeners. As revealing as using noise gates on a live sound drum kit for the first time and how the whole drum sound, and overall sound improves. Sharpening your hearing skills is the best sonic investment you will ever make. Best advice from DDP? Record as much as you can and try something new each and every time with your refined listening skills and new experimental approaches.
Tom vibration is so important in the drum sound, nobody talks about it. This technique is genius; particularly if you’re recording in a good sounding room. Dig that syncopated Rush ride pattern on the first example
I didn't know Ted Lasso could make such educational and entertaining drum mic videos!!
Thank you for talking about this! It is monumentally important when considering techniques of the past to consider the equipment and approach of the past. Bonham used a Coated Emp on his kick, the Super Kick, or Power Stroke or Emad didn't exist back then. Also, commercially available stereos weren't putting out nearly the amount of bass they do today; bass in general hadn't become as important to the listener.
I'd like to take this even a step farther. Even when close miking a kit, most drummers tune too low honestly. When I'm recording a drummer 9 times out of 10 they'll come in with their kit tuned as low as possible, because it sounds better to your ear in the room that way, right? Big deep sounding toms, it's awesome! But you aren't recording with your ears, you're recording with microphones, and while its not as bad as it is when you're tuned low at a distance, it's still all slap with not body or sustain when you're tuned too low. The other issue with tuning too low is that the pitches of the toms just end up way too close together so you lose any definition between the toms.
Thank you very much for showing how you record your kits.
Can you please do a video on the mics and how you modified them.?
Also would you use this method on a kit with 4 toms?
Or a really lively room?
Thanks for your question. I'm thinking of reviving my previous YT channel at some point and focusing on audio engineering there, and might very do such a video at that time. In the meantime, you can check out this: th-cam.com/video/jpCuO9Ok0M4/w-d-xo.html which is the mod, though apparently this fellow bought a kit with the 3 caps and some instructions. I just used parts from my inventory (I design recording equipment in another role of my life). A kit might not be a bad idea (I know someone on eBay used to sell one) as the polystyrene for coupling the mic's capsule needs to be rated 63v or more (it sees phantom power), and polys can sometimes be hard to find above 50v in most supply houses.
The guy in that video doesn't replace the capsule, however (or even remove the absurdly bulky brass ring around the stock capsule that does absolutely NOTHING to help the sound (add aggressive high mid character). Just removing that brass ring makes the 990/440/etc (mics with that capsule and ring) sound much smoother.
Also, MXL has made these mics with surface mount pcbs in recent years, so they can be a little trickier to mod, but not so much... the capsule capacitor is still through hole (a film cap), so that's easy to replace, and a regular soldering iron will allow you to remove the two SMD ceramic caps (caps 3 & 4, IIRC, though check them first to make sure they're both 220nF ceramics before you swap them). Then clean the solder pads (flat, no holes) with isopropyl, bend the legs of the new film caps so they lay flap along the plane of the side of the cap and cut the leads only as long as needed to lay on the SMD pads of the previous caps. Then just lay them in position and solder. Pretty simple, though you might want help from someone a bit more familiar with soldering if you are not. Still, just take your time, and it's not that hard.
I used nicer capsules from a pair of other mics that I owned (and also got for cheap, but they sounded quite good), but you can always buy nicer capsules for Chinese mics (true, large-diaphragm types) at microphone-parts.com. They also make mod kits, but their kits are all complete with new pcbs and components, if I'm not mistaken. Not necessary to make cheap mics better, but certainly very nice and worth it if you want a solid studio tool for the foreseeable future.
Hope that helps! Thanks so much for being here!
@@vlkiller I would experiment with placement to try to get a consistent balance between toms. The nice thing about the Glyn Johns approach is it works well with 4 pc kits for a balanced tom sound, but depending on where additional toms might be the mics may favor some over others in terms of tone, level, or sense of proximity. So some experimentation is called for.
And, FWIW, Hal Blaine's 'monster' kit (7 fiberglass toms) was commonly mics with 3-4 mics above the kit, spread out along the toms, and many of those records sounded really cool. So it really comes down to placement (and there are no rules... just truly trust your ears, not your eyes). Thanks again!
Would love more details on the microphone mods you're using here, they sound fantastic!
Awesome video! Why I love this kind of sound - its because it is LIVE, it is natural, it is what drums meant to be by their nature.
No 10" rack tom tuned down to 16" floor pitch, then muffled and sound like a cardboard, but because there is close micing, it allows to put a bunch of FX and make it sound like a modern plastic cardboard. But if you listen to it in a room or try to record in such way - you will have just nothing. Unlike these fully sounding drums.
So tune up, guys.
Totally man, and this translates into why/how some of the Bonham tuning videos are off, because they're tuning based on listening to distant/room mics. Bonham and all those guys were big band Krupa fans growing up.
Wow I stumbled upon this same realization on accident. I have always used Glyn Johns technique just for convenience, but it always sounded pretty lifeless on my big rock kit. I recently got a 13/14/20 jazz kit and to my surprise it sounded way bigger even though the shells are smaller.
I know this video is old, but i would like to know how you mixed this drum. Thanks a lot for this information, is pure gold!
Man, I hope someone can point me to where to start modding cheap mics, your micing setup here just sounds so good
I will be posting a video showing the modification I did with these mics in a current set of MXL mics on my recording channel, RecordingDotPizza, soon. Stay tuned..
I use this sort of drum mic setup although I can record 24 tracks at once, it just sounds better with less work at mixdown. I use a D112 on kick, Altec Coke Bottles for the two overheads, and I add an Altec Lipstick to the snare bottom. Good tuning suggestions!
I think that anyone interested in recording with just a few mikes should at least know about Glyn Johns or they didn't do their homework! I use this technique very often in my studio and many times my clients at first look pretty surprised. Both beforte and after recording! And it takes only three mikes, but the positioning of the mikes is crucial! Well, actually that's always important of course....😊
Nice and useful video, BTW, interesting for anyone not knowing Glyns way of miking.
The newer Waves SSL E2 channel plugin has that gain feature you are talking about.
Great stuff, again! Funny enough, wenn I‘m recording with Glyn‘s technique I‘m using rather cheap mics, too! I‘d recommend the MXL V67i‘s for it. Great mics for a low price. The got enough beef for it. For the big setup it‘s the Austrian Audio OC18.
I've actually got quite a few MXL's, all modified in various ways (I can't leave well enough alone). For people willing to do a little soldering the 990s are a spectacularly useful mic, even with the stock capsule (just remove that hideous brass ring that makes it sound so brittle... the capsule is actually the same as the 603 pencil mic, and it's not half bad! Remove that ring and swap a few caps, and it become quite a workhorse, particularly if you want to stick them somewhere you might be afraid to place a more costly mic.
I've never used the Austrian Audio mics. I've seen them, but don't know much about them. You like??
@@drumdotpizza As AKG is being sold the stock people in Austria separated and made their own company. So the OC18 and OC118 are basically their version of an AKG 414, some say with much better build quality. I‘ve tried some ribbons at first but my room has no great ambience, it‘s very dull. The ribbons picked up too much of it because of their polar patterns. What are your go-to OH mics?
@@thomasnussbaum4711 I'll have to look into those, thanks!
I'm always changing things around, so for overheads it's usually either Ehrlund EHR-M, AKG C460 (w/ either cardioid or omni capsules), a pair of C12 clones I have made with legit, resonator-style brass CK12 capsules, or ribbons like Extinct Audio BM-9 or Samar AL95 (their new, cheaper ribbon, which I quite enjoy!). Or EV 635 (not joking) or something else for more character. Whatever fits my fancy for the tune at the moment.
Tha't's probably not helpful, I'm sorry. I guess the most common for me are the Ehrlunds for condensers and the Extinct Audios for ribbons.
Of course, it’s helpful. That makes this whole drum recording thing so exiting that everyone has their take on it. My regret, that I haven’t enough technical knowledge to modify microphones like you do!
The sounds you are getting in this video are my ideal but I feel like I'll never get that kind of clarity in my 7" ceiling basement.
This video is simply fantastic, thank you so much for sharing this. Incredible stuff!
Can I have that snare?
Ha! Thank you for the compliment... er... no, I'll keep the snare (I have wanted an early Bell Brass forever, and finally got one (sort of) last year. It's actually a custom clone made for me by Cade over at Savage Drums. He makes cast bronze shells (and is a Bell Brass guru, recreating the same edges and snare beds as the various incarnations of Tama's BB snare throughout the decades). I bought a steel Mastercraft snare for the hardware (a donor drum) and Cade did the rest. It's not legit Tama.... but it's legit! Probably (and shockingly) the most versatile drum I have... I really didn't expect it to be as full sounding as it is... it can mimic wood (just really LOUD wood), as well as be very metallic depending on the heads an tuning.
They aren't cheap, but Cade does fantastic work (he even makes the Tama Bell Brass cast hoops that they made in the late 1980s as well). And pricey as they are they are a fraction of the cost of a Tama original (if you can even find one).
I'm going to do a video on this snare at some point and demonstrate its versatility.
Thanks for the comments!
@@drumdotpizza My Savage bronze shell is one of my pride and joys out of a truly wonderful collection of snares. I live in Everett, about an hour south of him!
Thanks for taking the time to not only write, but share more info than asked for. You are really generous with your time and energy, I can't thank you enough. I appreciate you, and your channel, I hope you keep doing videos for many years to come! Maybe our paths will cross one day and I can return the generosity somehow. Until then, be well, and thanks again!
Great video? Can you give us some Tune-Bot numbers on those toms?
Happy to! All toms have Aquarian Texture Coated (single ply, 10mil) with Aquarian Classic Clear on bottom. Tune Bot numbers for rack toms are 180 batter, 195 bottom head, and floor toms 124 batter with 135 bottom.
@@drumdotpizza Thanks!
Love the channel! Those drums sound beautiful, even through the crummy speaker I'm listening on, LOL. I'm curious about the overhead mics that you modified: what make & model were the mics, and where did you obtain the replacement capacitors?
The overhead mics were originally Nady SCM900 (I believe). Typical Chinese made cardioid large diaphragm mic with the Schoeps style transformerless circuit and knock off 32mm K67-type backplate design. I swapped the capsule capacitor for a 1000pF polystyrene (make sure you get one that can handle 60-ish volts for the polarization) and then swapped the two 220nF (IIRC) ceramic caps in the output section with 330nF (or higher) film caps (higher values will extend LF response to lower range).
I also swapped the capsules with capsules I took from a pair of SE electronics X1D mics they used to make (good mic, horrible body!! Body hummed and vibrated like crazy and no amount of caulking or taping would stop it. I liked the sound of the mics, however, so I pulled the capsules out and put them in the Nady bodies and modified the circuit. They are LOVELY microphone now (shockingly good!). Great for all kinds of things.
I got the replacement capacitors from a local electronics surplus outlet that unfortunately closed its doors last year. The only difficult one to source is the 1000pF polystyrene as most that you can find aren't rated for anything over 50 volts. You can find proper ones on ebay, however, so keep your eyes peeled. The film caps you can get from Mouser or DigiKey.
I'm going to be posting a video on my recording channel (RecordingDotPizza) shortly showing this same mod on a some MXL microphones, including the newer surface mount boards. People think you can't mod the surface mount versions, but you can, it's not that hard (and the capsule capacitor is a through hole film cap in those SMT boards from the factory, so swapping for a polystyrene is easy). Anyway, that will be coming shortly, so jump over there and stay tuned!
@@drumdotpizza Awesome, thanks for the detailed response! I'll go subscribe to the other channel and am especially looking forward to the video on modding the surface-mount mics!
Glyn John's recording of manu katche on Joe satrianis 1995 album shows how it's a great sound.
Good stuff Joel. What a stark difference. Those large ones sound so alive! What are your thoughts on this if you were to use a traditional close mic set up? If your looking for a wet sound, still better w large drums tuned up?
If you close mic the toms you can pretty much do what you want. Up close with a cardioid mic will produce artificial, exaggerated low end, so larger toms might be a bit overwhelming... you can always back the mic(s) off a tad to compensate. When I think of a 'wet' sound I think of more subdued harmonics and really a bit more 'slap' from the attack such as a looser head might produce. I'd probably go fairly unmuffled 2-ply heads, likely coated and then add, if really needed, a small fold of gaff tape. Close mics will tame the perception of higher frequencies, so try not to go nuts with muffling -- if you have much midrange information in the mix (guitars, synth pads, etc.) then those elements will significantly reduce the perception of these frequencies in the drums, so try not to deaden things too much or they'll wind up sounding like cardboard boxes, and all the EQ in the world won't add the harmonic that's lost.
For a wetter sound with minimal miking I'd go double-ply batter heads on larger toms and tune them a touch below the midrange of each drum (the point where you can tell the sustain is getting shorter), but don't go much below that -- will require a little trial and error to find the right amount, but remember, unless the drums are gonna be solo you need to take into account the frequency ranges of the other elements of the mix and be sure to muffle only as much as needed, or they'll be rendered rather lifeless when all is said and done.
Thanks for being here!
@@drumdotpizza outstanding Joel! Thank you!
You rule.
This sounds so great! Nerd Talk: How many feet away from the snare were the mics? and how many ft off the floor? Thanks
Awesome concept, Joel! Is there an alternative if you only have one rack and one floor and no bigger drums to swap out?
To get the same effect you'll just have to tune them higher. Also making sure you have single ply heads will help. All of the overtones/harmonics common to unmuffled single ply heads will help the tone of the toms reach the mics. It can be annoying up close, but those overtones are the 'life' that is needed to translate to distant/area mics.
I would like to know more about how you modded your cheap condenser mics. More specifically, what capacitors did you replace and what type of capsule did you use? Thanks so much.
I will be doing a video on this topic on my recording channel, RecordingDotPizza shortly. Thank you for the interest!
I'd be interested in the Tune Bot numbers involved with the different sized drums used. Thanks
Too late to log that, I'm sorry. I should probably start measuring my tunings and posting them in the description with each video. I generally only use the Tunebot to log tunings for later recall (or matching between drums I'm comparing), not for regular tuning duties, so I rarely think of this.
I'll try to make this more consistent part of my videos. Thanks for the question!
Thanks for making this. Love your channel. I have a question - how do you pan the “overheads”? I’ve read a bunch of conflicting information, people saying don’t hard pan, do like 30% to each side, others say to hard pan. What’s your method?
Great question! Minimalist techniques like Glyn Johns and recorderman, etc. get pretty weird when you pan too widely (though the time alignment with both snare AND kick with the latter makes wide panning a little less weird, comparatively). The addition of a snare mic (instead of relying only on the 'kit' mics for the entire snare sound) helps to focus the image of that drum making wider panning less odd as well.
With "0" as center and "100" being hard left or right, I panned the kit mics in this session at 50. It gives the toms appropriate positioning while still retaining a natural image, and the separate snare mic (which isn't up very much at all) does help to center that drum in the mix while still feeling natural in the sense of space.
Hope that helps! Thanks so much for asking!
@@drumdotpizza thanks so much for taking the time to explain that. Very helpful! Definitely going to try that out.
Great demo. But I don’t know, I still prefer the smaller-sized toms, even though you did a great job matching their pitch with the larger ones. I just like the tighter sound of the smaller drums. 🤷🏻♂️
What were the tune bot frequencies for each head in the two different takes? Great video. Thanks
Love your channel. Are you near the Dallas, TX area?
Great video, thank you
Can you tell me what snare drum you were using?
That is my Tama Bell Brass Mastercraft (1980) clone which was made for me by Cade at Savage Drums. He's brilliant with cast bronze shells and has all the details of the various Tama BB snare drums over the decades (including the original Mastercraft version) -- shell composition, thickness and finish (mine is the original burnished finish), bearing edge design, snare beds, the whole deal, just like Tama did them.
No way I'm paying $8-10k for an original (if I could even find one), but for around $2k (plus a donor steel Mastercraft from which I took all the proper hardware) he can built me a legit clone with all the mojo. It is perhaps my absolute favorite snare drum -- very hard to make it sound bad, and more balls than anything else I've ever played!
Great video. I thought the first one sounded great, but I definitely heard the difference with the larger toms. Largest sizes I have are 13" and 16". How do you find the midrange ??
Had to move the OH mic from pointing down over the BD beater side at 42" to over left side of snare drum looking down to get a better right to left balanced stereo panorama. If you dont the stereo field will sound like 11 o:clock to 3 o:clock panned at 9 and 3.
That's amazing. You look like a little kid sitting behind the kit with the 14" and 18" lol. Do you mind sharing what frequencies you tuned to? I like the way they sound.
3:21 - a link to a video of the modding you used would be greatly appreciated (or even better why not make one yourself?😉)
Hi thanks for theses advices. How do you think an the oh channel in your daw ?
I'm not sure I understand the question. Can you ask it again?
Yeah unfortunately I don't have a room full of drum choices lol, I think it depends on the song , if you are doing a dense rock track with a lot of guitars , you have to mic the toms to get them to cut through
Do you feel these modern plugins give you the saturation and round off the transients like the hardware ?
Could I get my old Ramsa to saturate like that, peg the gain and bring down the fader ?
Analog hardware is going to be quite different, model to model, so what works well on one desk may not work at all on another (older, transformer balanced pres with discrete or vacuum tube circuitry will tend to saturate in a musical way, while modern, transformer less designs won't (which is why I used a plugin for this video).
At the risk of sparking a 'digital vs. analog' debate (which I won't participate in) I do not find plugins as satisfying to use as my vintage outboard gear. The difference for me isn't so much in the sonics as in an undefinable visceral response from my body, it seems. My outboard gear FEELS good to listen to... my plugins SOUND really good. I can't define it more than that, and I am absolutely certain of my experiences with this. Plugins have become quite amazing, and I do believe they will soon create this same visceral response from my physiology... but it hasn't yet.
Thanks for being here!
Bigger toms sound more roomy, kinda make sense, they move more air, end up listening to accentuated reflections
Those danged Moon Muds lol
So you like to have your snare OH sort of looking down on an angle across the rack and the snare vs straight over the snare? Also do you like to have both mics exactly the same distance from the snare, or? It sort of looks like your Tom side mic is like a foot or so closer, or am I wrong? Just hard to tell.
They're equidistant from the center of the snare, yes (camera angle sometimes doesn't show that well). I know Glynn doesn't make a big deal out of this, but it can get pretty weird in my experience if they aren't well aligned with the snare... just indistinct, and I do like a defined snare position in the mix.
@@drumdotpizza Hey! Ok, so same distance I see! Yeah hah, I heard that too, whee he said he more or less eyeballs the distance, and that it doesn't matter that much. I'm definitely a Phase snob lol, and know what you mean!
But the OH (Snare) Mic is a bit more towards the rack tom sort of angled looking at the Snare and across the rack tom a bit right, as opposed to straight above the Snare? Have you tried straight over, and found you prefer it a little further out, and angled towards the snare? Like it's not just the camera making it look that way is it, or did you mean the camera just makes it look like the distance each mic is from the snare a little different? I wasn't sure which question you were replying to when you mentioned the camera.
Could it be also because the dimensions of the bigger drums altered the distance to the mics so hence affecting the phase as a result. Still is solid point. No wonder Bonham would do that back then.
Well, the position of the playing surface didn't change (the batter heads didn't get closer or farther away from me or the mics between the two sizes of each), though the outer dimensions (edges and depth) did... would that account for such changes? Not sure what math is involved in determining that, but my guess is that whatever effect that would have on the perception from the mics would be minimal compared to the dramatically altered tone created by the higher tension on each tom. Just my best guess.
@@drumdotpizza perfect that clarified that. It's amazing though how little distance affects the phase and hence transients. And they for sure contribute to the clarity of the sound.
Have you made a video about how to upgrade your mics at home? I feel like that goes hand-in-hand with not having enough mics to record your drums 😆
Studio electronics are near and dear to my heart (I actually have a company, Rascal Audio, that builds microphone preamps). I've modified/built many of my condenser microphones, including the ones in this video.
I have an older channel that dealt with recording and mixing (drums and everything else) that I never really got off the ground properly. I have considered rebooting that once I'm in a more consistent groove with DrumDotPiizza. Modifying mics would be a great video for that channel. Perhaps I will get to it sooner than later?
Thanks so much for your input!!!
@@drumdotpizza Consider me invested and excited!