@@ZarejuNax Ever seen dried up meat? It was fairly common in the past and resistant to mold......and yeah, i guess we have the same situation here (or alternatively is a kind of mummification inside the mud).
When I think of slugging, I have to think of the game I had where me and my buddy loaded in with two randoms. None brought a flashlight, not one of us had a crazy meta built, and nobody bullied the killer. Hell, one of the survivors had 82 hours in the game. It was a pig who had a slugging build. We all quickly went down. She then neither put traps on us nor hooked, she simply let us all bleed out while humping me for 4 minutes. Judging by comments on her profile, that was the usual game style for her. For me as a survivor and killer main, I absolutely understand the need to slug in certain situations. I don't mind that, just like camping or whatever. Sometimes you just have to. But going into a game with the purpose to slug, especially if there's one person who's really good at looping just takes the fun out for me. Like great, that one person can run the killer for 3 minutes but we are all on the floor just watching from the distance while bleeding out. Or, well, you die with 1k points because everybody got downed. Isn't the purpose of the game to basically play tag? I'm not the best looper at all, but I want to have fun in this silly game. Dcing survivors and slugging killers take that away so much that I haven't touched the game in 2 months.
Ive been in that situation before and honestly i i always expect the loss as a solo queqe survivor so i didnt really care. I just went back to killer after the match anyway
@@GregPiggotI feel this is the biggest reason you see “killer” TH-camrs make more videos over winning. Survivor is a role that the expectation is you’ll die due to relying on 3 other people. Killer feels worse because when you play bad it’s just you. You don’t see survivors playing to win the whole match. You see them playing for good loops or good singular plays. While killers are constantly thinking about stopping everyone. So if I get a good flashlight play I’m happy. If I loop for 2 gens I’m happy. If I get 4 cross map snipes with huntress but they still 2 out I feel bad. And I have to be mindful of that on killer so I don’t take it out on other survivors. From what I hear and what I see it’s a similar mental thing. But idk. Just something I’ve noticed over the years.
Freddy is really so hard to play, trying to play him without any perks at all makes it nearly impossible, as I'm not a killer main, neither play Freddy enough to be a master, when I play killer I usually prefer twins, they're fun😅
He 100% is not one of the weakest lmao I play Freddy almost all the time he’s my second fav besides ghostface and I get at least 2 kills every game most the time 3 or 4
@@EzekielPhillips-ep7vb I can't play him really well, and he is hard for me to play, he is one of the weakest killers according to otz killer tier list and several others. Plus, I played without any perks for a personal challenge, which makes it more than extremely hard for me to get a 4k I did too get 2k and sometimes 3k, but it was unnecessarily exhausting
As a survivor main, slugging makes the match feel nearly impossible and as such most of the time results in MANY DCs. People hate having their time wasted and slugging completely wastes all survivors time.
And thats why it is a loose loose situation, no one wants to have their time wasted, but if the killer doesnt they are put into a flat disadvantage. Slugging wastes survivors time, while not slugging wasted the killers time because unless they are a really good killer there is not much they can do.
Idk how this is a problem. A good sfw can easily win tbh, Also its not enough that bhvr nerfed Almost Every gen defense perk and Buffed surv perks.. Also what Buff to anti slugging are u thinking about?
Xeno and slugging just feels bad because a lot of times you can hook near a tunnel and make it back to tunnel or pressure the unhooker. It’s not any more advantageous than tunneling from what I’ve found.
Xeno is kinda odd for slugging, the point of slugging is if you see someone to pick up the down survivor or try to you get em, but Xeno spend most of the time underground.
As a survivor main, at some point even with anti-slugging perks it becomes pretty much impossible to reset for a solo or duo q team. Just yesterday i had a game vs Nurse who was slugging, probably didnt leave a 5m radius 90% of the game. Unbreakable and p100 teammates, decent synergy for a solo q team and having personally picked up teammates at least 5 times, eventually they bleed out upon being downed. Managed to complete 2 gens. Given that i wasnt on the ground most of the game, i didnt feel too salty but it did feel like a massive waste of time with no good solution. All my teammates played their best and no one DCed but honestly we never stood a chance unless we just ignored the downed person and let them bleed out for the start. Its games like that where i wonder why even play DBD. If killers play like that every game no one is going to play survivor anymore. Edit: To comments saying let them bleed, I can only dictate my play in solo matches. If my team isnt going to leave a slug or all 3 are about to be slugged and I can pick someone up I'm going to, because I want people to be able to play the game. Ultimately the point is that the game should not be played that way and if so many killers are going to just because they can, then there should be a mechanic to counter it built into the base game. Hell, even a vote to surrender would be acceptable. Like this isn't a rare thing, sometimes its multiple games in a single night.
Let them bleed, it's not gonna hurt them. They still have 3 hook states regardless of bleed out time. If you get gens done instead of allowing a snowball of picking up, of course it will be hard. You're not forcing them to go to gens. If they know you're not on gens, why would they not patrol around the slug? If I was the slug I'd be screaming to do gens and crawl as far out of the way as possible. If they're giving you gens for 1 slug, take it. I don't mind being bled out as long as my time on the ground leads to progression. If they wanna camp me, let them. I got 2 mins, if you all sit on a gen, they have a decision to make now. Sit by me and risk possibly watching a 5th gen pop or going to those gens and allowing a reset. 90 seconds per gen, that's 3 done. You could mathematically do them all before I bleed out. Again, it's all about forcing that decision on them. Don't fall into a pickup/down snowball. That will always lose you the game.
@@WutTheDeuceGaming Most Survivor mains don't have the patience or the unselfish mindset required to use that obvious and very effective strategy, though.
@@2Evol2 I'd say it depends on the mindset of the one who's downed. Like the OP of that comment said; "If I was the Slug" So they have the mindset that as long as progress is being made, they don't care about being down for a while. If more people had that mindset rather than "I need to be up and doing stuff all the time, who cares about progress/winning?", then survivors might see more wins racking up. Fun is subjective, and unless you get a team full of people who share your idea of fun, then anything can be seen as griefing (if 3 of the 4 survivors find it fun winning, but you don't really care about that and don't do what you can to achieve it, then you're griefing those 3. While on the opposite end, if you're serious about winning and you get 3 party members who don't care and just run around not doing the objectives, then that might feel like griefing as well.)
I don't want to be mean but you said you played decently well, but that the killer managed to slug 2 people to death (8 mins) with only 2 gens done, with nurse only 5m away from them... Do you realise how stupid it is from survivors being slugged to stay on the same area, allowing the killer to slug multiple people and being able to keep line of sight to put them back down if they are picked up Since you only completed 2 gens during this 8 mins(impossible) the only explanation is that both of this survivor got slug at the same time and stayed together allowing the killer a more efficient playstyle I agree one of them should of have died in the end with the killer camping ontop of them but it still takes 4 mins which is enough for the others to escape, without even counting chase time You guys could of have played this better than you did, I know there is only so much you can do in soloq but it's still up to the survivors to learn how to play
I mean, neither is tunneling. Thats why you take your very meta anti-tunneling perks. If the meta changes, then just take different perks. The handicap survivors have right now with OTR alone is ridiculous.
@@BBS-dl1lt I prefer getting aggressively tunneled vs getting slugged. At least when I'm getting tunneled I have multiple chases and get to actually PLAY A GAME instead of crawling around on the ground hoping that someone else can manage to pick me up.
@@BecketTheHymnist why do you make it sound like slugging=bleeding out. Unless your teammates are terrible, they’ll just pick you up. It’s easier the pick someone off the ground than it is to pull them down from hook.
@@BBS-dl1ltDid you just call OTR a handicap? My brother in Christ, survivors who use OTR can't do *anything* for 80 seconds or they've just wasted a perk slot
Hey if it makes you feel better every time I am slugged to death also adds 30 years to my life because afterwards I stop playing DBD for a couple weeks. lol
Personally, I find the data heavily flawed due to lack of consistency. It would be extremely boring to get extremely consistent data, but unfortunately, a topic like this NEEDS hyper-specific data to accurately come to a conclusion on such a subject.
The video is really good, but holy hell I did NOT have a good time slugging 😭 I legitimately feel like I was freed from my shackles after the ten games were over.
Oh sick. I’ve been seeing so many content creators mention you asked them about this, and I’ve been expectantly refreshing your channel excited to see the culmination. Let’s go!
Just want to thank you for putting all this together! As a software dev (Not a dbd dev) myself I like looking at community driven experiments like this because they are very insightful! I hope you continue to enjoy the game and bring out more interesting discussions like this!
Honestly, if a slugging meta happened, I'd just quit playing. Every match with a slugging or tunneling killer is boring, uninteresting, and just...feels malicious.
When I play survivor I like being slugged. Since I can still move around and sneak around lol. Being hooked takes away all control from me, so it’s boring lol. (Plus I run soul guard, so if I really want to get back up. I can.) However BHVR just needs make hook counts actually matter for Killers instead of kills. Because as this video basically shows. The incentive to slug and tunnel is literally the best and only way to really do anything as killer.
I actually think there are so many Anti-Slug perks out there that if the meta became slugging there would be no problems just switching to "Unbreakable, We're gonna life forever, MFT and Exponential". It's really not that hard if everyone is doing it. It only feels bad because people bring anti-tunnel perks which reward you for being unhooked, so if you don't get hooked you can't benefit.
@@iXSIKOBOIXithe problem is, if survivors are going to make their builds against slugging meta, then tunnelling will become much stronger. there’re not enough slots to “anti-things” I think the problem should be solved at the ground level
@@kapkeik4681 The solution: BHVR getting their head out of their arse and actually show what people bring in the lobby, this way soloQ don´t continue to get horribly screwed over and they can bring a semblance of balance into the match. It´s ridiculous that this has not been added years ago already.
Dbd is one of the most dogshit designed games EVER made, gamemodes, monetisation, survivor - killer balance, 80% of killers being straight garbage compared to high tier killers, absolute trash map rng, the list goes on, lack of games in the same genre keeps it alive
Timestamps in the form of chapters and the pinned comment should have the section that those are looking for! I mentioned it with the assumption of people probably just wanting to see how their main/favorite content creator did.
I remember when I went for only Slug playstyle with Sadako. Using her "stealth" and mobility to ambush, injure and eventually down survivors all across the map. OG Sloppy, Nurses Calling, Knockout and Third Seal. At first I did because it was a thing I haven't played at all, but then I won a game with 4k... then another... then another.... I end up going 26 games win streak, with every single one being 4k. And thing is, streak could probably keep going up if not for me just stop playing this way completely. (It is ultimately boring. Efficent, but boring)
Slugging for strategic value is always smart. Sometimes, you just need to apply pressure on three fronts. Someone on hook, someone bleeding out on the ground, and another person in chase. Keeps the 4th off Gens.
Yeah but most killers nowadays slugs all and right at the start of the game, I actually respect slugging strategically more than their whole freaking intent.
@@franzukato2822except slugging 24/7 is still very effective so what's your point lol , upset at killers for using effective tactics ? If it's SOOOO boring then hold the devs accountable
@@isaansari9838”strategically” burn that in your mind and read what me and the comment above me has said, heck I used it too when I encountered flashlight, sabo and gen rush bully squad but using it for the sake of slugging all and just wait all survivors to bleed out is boring and stupid specially if you want to farm bloodpoints or even earn bloodpoints, I will repeat again strategic slugging I respect cause there are survivors that are oppressing aswell specially great ones and as a killer you must do everything you can to stop them if you want to win but not hooking anyone at all is time wasting for both sides, bear in mind aswell huntress was the killer I used when I slugged 4 survivors and being shitheads hahaha, with a literal farming perks distressing , beast of prey, thrill of the hunt, and extra perk like going for faster breaking action.
@@CelesQuinnworst when you get gen rushing , saboing, flashlight wielding survivors in one game hahaha soooo satisfying slugging all 4 of them even contemplated letting them all bleed out but wanted those sweet sweet bloodpoints more 😂.
I'm actually SO EXTREMELY HAPPY you decided to make this video! I've tested this myself and realized that slugging is heavily promoted on most killers. I'm hoping that Behavior sees this so that they realize just how prominent it is. It's not fun personally-both slugging and being slugged-and I hope there's a way we can resolve this in a healthy manner before the rules of the game changes and EVERYONE starts to do the same.
I’m just confused on what the point of this discussion even is. You said yourself that survivors are unprepared for this playstyle which allowed it to really shine, but then provided stats where it’s an uncommon meta where killers performed better, when… I don’t really see why that matters? If survivors start experiencing this meta, they’ll just adapt, bring anti slug, and then we’re just in the exact same boat but the video game is less fun for everyone. I just don’t understand. I can understand your point that it feels like time is being taken from killers, but the stats don’t lie. Killers when 7/10 games, which is a LOT, and survivors lose almost every game on average. Only 30% of perks were anti tunnel. I just don’t get it. This narrative that killers are losing time and survivors are weaponizing anti tunnel and it’s putting killers at a disadvantage just feels like confirmation bias. They’re winning. They win 75% of the time. That’s a LOT. Why does it need to be more often? I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but it genuinely feels like the survivor experience isn’t being taken into account for stuff like this. The game going in a slugging direction would be DETRIMENTAL to the health and vibes of the game. Nobody would want to play anymore. So I’m just trying to understand what exactly you’re trying to say with this video. Full respect, I love me some stats, not trying to come off as a bitch, I’m just genuinely curious and honestly baffled.
I did acknowledge the survivor experience, but this was genuinely about data and the killer playstyle and adjustment to the experiment at hand, not necessarily focusing on survivor feelings, so I'm sorry if you feel like I'm ignoring their wellbeing. I'm not trying to state anything other than from my own personal experience as Killer from what's be frustrating over the last month or so of meta and to see if other killers feel the same. Despite anti-tunnel perks being comprised of /only/ 30%, they were also the perks that have been the most notable. Even without the experiment at hand, I don't notice the stress of deja vu more than I notice the frustration of off the record and decisive strike being weaponized in my face. Of course it's not fun to be slugged, but why is it that there's an overall higher winrate percentage when you ignore a main component of the game? 70% of win rate is perfectly fine, I agree, but when an overwhelming majority of killers acknowledged that their games are easier and less stressful when you negate hooking, it's something to be aware of. I am not trying to fix any meta or offer solutions, and the flows of builds to adapt to playstyles isn't anything new. You can have a counter to everything in the game, of course people can see builds being adjusted as a result. Again, this was just a fun video showcasing data based around an experiment spawned from tweets and forum posts I've seen.
Great killer on their main with a great build win 75% of the game showed in the experiment. You're totaly right, you just forgot that not every killer is those participant.
"The game going in a slugging direction would be DETRIMENTAL to the health and vibes of the game." I thought that was the entire premise of the video, looks to me like you missed the point. It shouldn't make the experience harder for the killer if they're hooking survivors, when it takes all the effort to get them on the hook in the first place.
One point I'd like to add to this is the fact that a lot of these killers are very good at what they do. Just take momo and alf (both winning over 1k games in a row) an "average" killer is unlikely to perform as well during these games if they played under the same circumstances.
8:20 It's completely insane to me that the Survivor side of the game has gotten this bad. I don't even want to PLAY Surv anymore because people do this so much. This data means that even if BHVR removed your ability to die on first hook on purpose, people would just DC, which I guess is still better because then you'd get a bot, and bots know to do gens and actually get their flashlight saves. But the quitter epidemic is out of control. I feel like it's every other game, regardless of if I'm killer or survivor, and regardless of which killer I play or how. It's just a coinflip if each person's first hook is gonna be their last.
For everyone panicking, idk how this is problem, if slugging outperform only in getting more 4k than 3k Sum percentage of 0-2k for slugging and hooking basically even(difference is single game) And from the video it's not really clear how many hatches there was. I'm pretty sure that hooking had more hatches escapes and it's difference surely affected final result. I think it's a big loss not including amount of hatches escapes. But i must say that having results for every single killer was really good
Not gonna lie despite slugging and tunneling being looked down upon, with all the second chance perks, flashlights and instant pops of gens, I simply don't care. I want to try and win even if I'm gonna get hate for it. Especially when I see so many talking about the need for the survivors to have fun, which yes they do, but then these survivors will proceed to taunt and troll the moment that things fall into their favor.
like honestly, if winning is all that killers are thinking of that they're thinking "oh im going to slug survivors until they die and cant do anything" then just give me a free DC. You can have the win idgaf. I'd rather go next. At this point, the survivor isnt even playing the game.
850% winrate on slugging hag is so strong, I strive for the day where i can put 12 people on the floor at once. What a blissful utopia we would be in if this were possible.
I really like these kind of videos that try to analize the game with data That being said, this experiment sort of feels like you want to see which fish dish is the tastiest, but you're changing the chef, the temperature you're cooking, how long you're cooking, changing the garnish, changing the sauce, changing the fish,changing the quality of the ingredients, changing the judges all at the same time
Killers need incentives to hook not only with perks but at base kit. At this moment, due to most of the survivor meta perks being related to hooking and being so relevant, slugging just became the stronger alternative. Now, I actually think that going from the 4 man slug playstyle from the get go is not actually that good on most killers, but if you are able to get two people down, it'd be more optimal to go for the other two (depending on the killer). A combination of a hook and multiple slugs would be a good combo for a lot of killers but the point still stands that focusing on slugs is stronger than focusing on hooks.
It is nothing new, though. Slugging always had the advantage, that you can set your sights on whatever, straight after getting the dying state. That will always be a tactical reality, no matter what.
I've been drawn about this a long time as someone who primarily plays trickster. I'm generally a 12 hook gamer, but current iteration of trickster has snowball potential. This is made worse by not really having map presence and the more common prevalence of not just anti-tunnel, but worse, AGGRESSIVE anti-tunnel. It's not to have ds and otr to prevent the tunnel, it's to force the use of them to waste my valuable time. Why, then, should I not slug? Now multiple instances of strong perks aren't getting use. Now I'm turning a frustrating game into one where I'm firmly in control. It's a combination of design choice by the devs and game choice by the players and it's generally confusing. That being said, I'm not a Saturday morning cartoon villain. I don't really care about the outcome of this game and prefer running no slowdown, off meta perks and my favorite outcome is 8 hooks, no kills, and a friendly end game after a fun game. But if I'm leaning forward in my raid shadow legends g fuel gaming chair because this team is being annoying, there's rarely an incentive to hook in current patch.
Always remember. If survivors are using anti-tunnel perks offensively they are effectively slugged. They cannot progress any game objective or heal others without losing the perks. This is good for you...
You should try doctor, with knockout+sloppy butcher+claustrophobia+ Distressing. An do not hook survivors. Just slug them. It’s pretty easy, and fun. (Put the add ons, discipline and order. You can also trade out sloppy butcher, for septic touch too).
i try not to slug but when they have flashlights and i see them trying hide cover....i cant help but take the advantage of it...and at endgame they complain i slug..even though they force me to...
Ghostface main here: IMO, 4 man slugging can be more harmful than helpful for Ghostface because downed people can still reveal you, making it harder to use your power. Hooking survivors allows you to control where they are and prevent them from moving. If they’re moving around, they can reveal you MUCH easier
I did that once to a slugging GF. Had tenacity because it was part of a meme build I use, just followed him and revealed him until he was fed up with my antics
I slug. Not proud to admit it, but most survivors are just so toxic for no reason, I try to play as a fair and fun killer and almost everytime I mess up they bad me and point at me. Or spam flashlight, it's gotten to the point were I'm so tired of it I just slug with twins. A shame since I don't wanna
As if I had read (literally watched) an article in a scientific journal, it is very pleasant to contemplate such a volume of work, comparisons! I have a positive viewing experience, thank you very much!
Honestly, Behavior only has themselves to blame for this one. Just have a survivor auto hook after say 20 seconds on the furthest hook from the killer and you would improve the flow of the game immensely for both sides, as survivors wouldn't be left to bleed out forever, killers wouldn't have to carry long distances from corners if they didn't want to, and it would promote more chased based gameplay. Right now, hanging only 1 survivor until they are dead and slugging the rest is really the best way to play most killers and it honestly shouldn't be that way.
Slugging also results in less bloodpoints after the match , as a Killer main I disdain this play style boring for me to play as the killer, absolutely infuriating to play survivor against, as both as a killer and survivor I care more for the bloodpoints than of the rankings. Edit I was talking about those shitty killers that their sole intent was just to slug all survivors and let all bleed on the ground not even hooking anyone from the match , strategic slugging where you slug some or even all if they are being pests and then proceed to hook them is what I respect cause some survivors do be running gen rush, sabo, flash builds in coordinated fashion sometimes.
My biggest issue is the slugging mechanic is a common form of griefing. Examples, a killer I had in 1 match used Dracula to slug everyone and hump on the floor then trolled in end game chat, his entire profile is every comments of the guy doing this for MONTHS. Next game, I had the same guy and he recognised me and targeted, there is no way I would have known I would be matched against the same guy because usernames are hidden yet killers can see our name are target. Another time I was using the Witch outfit, the killer kept downing me and slugging me ONLY, I was on death hook and nobody was near by, he hooked everyone even when they were on death hook and prolong me on the ground so I left, I wasted my items, offerings and lost bloodpoints because I can only play few hours when lucky. And I was also slugged in the void, the killer slugged other people but because I was in the void he held me hostage and I couldn't leave it even when I got up with unbreakable. He taunted me, and followed on top of me. Also a killer decided to camp on top of me and slug, whilst shooting things at me at the floor, they said the reason in chat which wasn't true at all, my teammates defended me too. Another time I saw a killer slug someone else for trying to go next, and tried to be a hero by saying they didn't want them to go next to affect the teammate, yet the guy was playing scummy either way lmao. I went next. Trying to punish someone isn't helping other people, people will try go for the save then we get downed, how is that 'helping', but trying to fuel your ego. Anyways I uninstalled the game, event mode was unplayable because killers found a way to keep people hostage in the void and now there are people with only -rep in the comments for slugging and humping. This form of griefing has been happening in every single event mode, yet the regular mode it is rare. Many people I know have quit because of this, and I have quit too. One mechanic is actively destroying their game, so either they remove it or ban killers abusing it maliciously in order to prevent a player from playing. You cannot have an abusive mechanic and not regulate it with rules, the biggest issue with this game is the lack of moderation. Survivors griefing other survivors is common as well and they will not issue bans even with video evidence. Example, a duo were body blocking me and teaming with the killer, also spamming lockers were I was, I sent the video evidence to BHVR and showed proof they were in each other friend list, they never got banned. Enjoy playing an unmoderated game that will die before 2030.
Also why is that mechanic in the game that removes the entire point of second chances? So if every killer slugs in this game, second chances doesn't exist anymore, and casual players have no chance of learning the game. Plus in the vent mode I am seeing brand NEW players who are being slugged and targeted.
Yea its embarrassing getting humped when slugged for some reason, 1 time i tried making best of it by spinning in circles to make it hard for them to do and tried laughing about it but it gets to ya sometimes :/ made me uncomfortable, yet i still come back to the game for some reason to get event items then leave again. i want to enjoy it because i love the characters and stuff but honestly just pretty stressful
I’m a survivor main, married to a killer main. We both agree with your video. SoloQ is a disaster but also killers have it rough in surprising ways survivors can’t often notice. I really hope this kind of data keeps coming out it because I think it’s a much stronger case for BHVR since it’s actual trackable. I love the approach. I will be tuning in for your future experiments ❤
Excellent video! Was wondering where you had gone and had hoped you were okay. Definitely worth the wait. You know, there's been many days where I wondered, what if I just slugged to win instead of hooking, and then this video comes out. I was getting so close to making a slugging build to fk around and find out. Thanks for the information. Once again, great video!
Personally I only slug when is like 2 survivors or I KNOW if someone is near, especially if I am around a pallet or they use Flashlight. Otherwise Hook. I just try to take advantage of the situation so I dont hook somebody and 3 gens pops out of nothing
It's not a surprise. Hooking is not just risky and creates no pressure but it's outright forced downtime on the killer. It's the game literally giving survivors a free break to sit on gens
I would say it depends massively. Lots of builds provide you with a big incentive to hooking a survivor (pop, pain res, bbq). If you hook the survivor in basement next to a 3 gen you have just gained a massive amount of pressure on every killer in the game. Smart survivors will try to run you away from the gens that need completed and that's when you are losing pressure as killer. To counter this as killer you just have to learn when its best to drop chase, when to tunnel when to play more passively and protect a strong close set of gens. That is why Momo (as an example) is one of the best blights in the game (imo), he is fantastic at using blights power, knows who to chase, when to drop chase and what areas of the map work best with his kit for blight.
First, if you consider a 3k a win, the two are almost exactly even in results. But also man, even as someone who generally prefers killer, I cannot get over the intro talking about how rough killers have it followed immediately by "So anyway killers 4ked in 74% of their games without slugging"
I mean these are some of the best killers in the world. Not sure what you expect. The overall winrate stats for each killer are also scuffed due to all the DCs and inting on first hook. In the competitive scene, the game appears to be slightly more survivor sided at the moment. She very clearly pointed out all the current problems with hooking currently. Forced time sink, opens the door to the very strong, very meta second chance perks, weak anti gen perks as a tradeoff, and a buffed hookstate timer that makes it even closer to the bleedout timer.
@@BBS-dl1lt Never use competitive DBD to judge the balance state of the game for the general playerbase. They are not playing the same game. They have ban lists for perks and restrictions on what combinations of perks and items and addons you can run. You also aren't playing against survivor groups that coordinated, nor are your killers that good. I just think this test is very scuffed and put its thumb on the scale to try to prove slugging is stronger by only counting 4ks as a win. If you never hook survivors, you are going to 4k in almost all games which you win, because of the nature of hatch. Slugging all survivors until everyone is on the floor denies hatch. If you combine the 3k stats with the 4k stats, hooking has an overall higher winrate across all killers. Just look at the hooking results the Nurse specialist got versus the Trapper specialist. Do you think a 60% winrate on Nurse versus a 90% winrate on Trapper sounds right?
@@BBS-dl1ltand that’s another problem with this experiment. rlly feel like carn should’ve taken the time to recruit killer mains that don’t have a billion hours in the game so we can get a better idea of the average player’s experience with slugging vs hooking
Objective data gathering is always good, and I think it's a valuable experiment, so big props for putting it together! What I fail to understand, as someone who has played competitive or team games for over 20 years, is how a 74% chance of a 4k (88% chance of a "win" if we include 3ks as wins) whilst hooking is deemed enough to switch to another playstyle, as if it isn't remarkable for one side to have such dominance in standard play, particularly when most other competitive games are far more tuned to 50% winrates in a given skill range. Maybe I'm lucky, a statistical outlier that isn't lining up against bully squads every second match but my experience in other games makes killer in dbd feel like a treat. That's not to say killers are entitled by nature, as far more often these days I'm experiencing survivor DCs after first hook, a bad opening chase, or even more frustratingly intentionally dying on hook to force a 3v1 in a game that - looking at the data - is already an uphill struggle. Surely, the epidemic of rage quitting has to be a priority of bhvr and the community
The actual answer is that BHVR lumps the entire top 5% of the matchmaking pool together. That's like placing plats against challenger players in League or Top 500 in OW. So in those situations you can see how if someone was actually the equivalent of top 500/challenger, the vast majority of their games are going to be against plats/diamonds just because there are way more of them. Which in turn results in really screwed up win rates because they are just stomping on people who should never have been matched against them in the first place. I can personally attest for example, that in 700+ games, I only had 4 that were "close" (2 won, 2 lost funny enough). Almost every other match was the system basically just feeding people into a meat grinder because it wasn't at all a balanced match.
@GreysTavern top 5% is madness. Back when I played OW regularly, I was comfortably mid-masters and my younger brother top 500, it was no contest head to head. Without a solid MMR system, likely making queue times unbearable for high skill players, I don't know how you navigate that issue
@@IVIorat Yup. That's honestly the entire problem. Now imagine how many times your brother would win if he was top 10 and you were plat. Probably hundreds if not thousands of times in a row. And that's basically how killers end up going on crazy winstreaks. That's why I keep trying to tell people that killer going on these long winstreaks isn't because they are suddenly insanely OP, it's just a matchmaking problem. Now combine that with most of the killers in this experiment being the equivalent of Top 10, let alone Top 500, and you start to see how the data ends up this way.
i play both killer and survivor, i refuse to tunnel, camp or slug at any point, the only time ill slug AT ALL is when i down someone and know someone else is close by trying to get a flashlight save or something. then ill hit them to make em run off before i pick up the other guy but that's it. if im chasing someone and realize i just hooked em i straight up leave em. idc if it means i loose the game, in my mind if i have to tunnel, camp or slug to win a game i already lost. what ppl don't think about is no matter how you play the game it's going to be just as hard. if you slug to win your mmr gets higher so you get put with better survivors, if you don't slug to win your mmr matches that and your game is just as hard. without slugging, camping and tunneling i still get a 4k about 80% of the time also YOUR NOT SUPPOSED TO WIN ALL YOUR GAMES the survivors need to win some too. some times if im doing really well but i can tell the survivors aren't having fun, ILL JUST LET THEM GO. bc they clearly don't wanna be there and if they aren't having fun im not having fun. i also play as huntress bc i feel like they are one of the lesser hatted killers. honestly i feel like a lot of the killers who do camp, tunnel and or slug are selfish and only care about them self. they don't care about the survivors and i think that's whats killing the game is bc of that survivors aren't having fun anymore. killers like that are honestly ugly ppl in my eyes.
remember when bhvr tried basekit unbreakable in the ptb? it wasnt implemented because hooks didnt respawn after a death so there were dead zones exploited. now they do i believe basekit unbreakable will be introduced in a future update but i could be completely wrong, thoughts anybody?
thing is they might have to balance anti slug perks like were gonna live forever so they would need to do that along with other things if they were to i troduce that.
I think basekit UB would kill the game. So many killers that massively benefit from slugging would drop down at least 1 tier and once again this buff would benefit swf's more than solo's.
I haven't played DbD since the DnD chapter released (the game engine update gave my antivirus a heart attack and I haven't reinstalled it since), but it's really interesting to see how the meta continues to change and shift in response to balance patches, perks buffs and nerfs, and reworks. Here's hoping that the devs realize the "why are they doing it?" behind the "what are they doing?" and give Killers an incentive to hook again instead of just buffing anti-slugging perks and thinking "that'll do".
I went against OsuchinRiberu during one of the Deathslinger slugging matches. The match was on Toba Landing, and we definitely needed more organization to get through it than we did given that we were all presumably solo players. Slugging builds are a nightmare for solo queue. But hey, I got hatch!
I hopped in his stream after the game. He was super chill and talked about the experiment he was doing. I forgot to check back on how it went, so this video was super lucky lol
I don’t respect the opinion of game health/balance from anyone who doesn’t play both sides, but I laugh at killer mains the most. Like statistically in this study killers 4k 75% of regular matches and they’re complaining that “the game is too hard for killers”? (Also the data is a 4k when 99% of ppl consider a 3k as a win) It’s literally proven killer sided by a ginormous margin. I win the vast majority of my games as killer and when I lose the occasional game do I cry that my win rate isn’t always 100%? HELL NO! Talk about entitlement Jesus people if you keep playing so smelly you won’t have a player base left to slug 😥
Thankfully Carn and a fair number of other people who contributed to this do play both sides. As for the win rates, this is mostly made up of people who are legitimately some of the best people playing those killers in the game. Since the top 5% of the matchmaking pool is all thrown together, if you are sitting at the 99% skill percentile, then you will, on average, lose 1 game for every 100 played. It's legitimately a problem of shitty matchmaking.
@@FatherAntithetical Matchmaking fs but I think the most glaring issue is killer balance. A lot of killers are just so much worse than the top tier and people expect to win with their fav killers just as much as if they played blight Billy nurse ect and since they can’t resort to degen strats to win. If the cast was brought all up to more like Weskerish level the killers would still enjoy a high win rate without playing like a greeseball. Killers should be winning the majority of games btw no point in playing ‘survivor’ if surviving is too easy, but having that while allowing to let killers play a more relaxed and chase oriented play style will make both sides more happy and that’s where the surv only players who complain fuck the game up for themselves
Personally, I only really have two scenarios where I slug: 1.) I'm trying to deny hatch for the last survivor because the person I just downed is dead on hook. 2.) I'm up against a squad trying to use lame tactics (flashlight spam, hook sabatoge, gen rushing w/ toolkits, ect) where slugging is the only real way to not get steamrolled. Sometimes I slug outside of those two cases when it's strategically better to do. Although it isn't very often considering the build I use rewards me for hooking.
The fact that 20% of survivors are salty even when the killer is playing a normal hook game, is absolutely crazy. Every 5th person. Every FIFTH!!!! Mindbogling. At the end of the day this is still just a game. Wondering how much salt these people have during their every day life. AND that is ONLY the salt. If you add the amount of dc which usually happens due to salt... another 19%. that makes a total of 39% of survivors. Ridiculous. (I'm technically a survivor main btw, but trying to keep a balance. Have not disconnected on purpose a single time in my 1400+ hours)
Survivors when BHVR gives buffs to their perks for no reason ruin the gameplay for killers Survivors when killers adapt and have literally no choice but to tunnel/slug to get a chance of winning We should remember to not hate the player... but BHVR. Btw great video, full of great info! I subbed asap!
@@maxsiqueira666 killers that mained a killer for X amount of time and use their skill to have higher win rate, so yeah you have a skill issue as a survivor. Survivors that have literally been able to do gens in 15 seconds, 3-4 health states that can be abused and get other buffs to no end sounds like bad game design is not those survivors fault though is BHVR
All these creators slugging, is gonna lead to bhvr making unbreakable basekit. Also who cares if slugging is more effective. Effective =/= fun. Just play the game normally, who cares about effectiveness. I guess the art of playing for fun or not super seriously or sweaty is completely lost nowadays 13:39 unwarranted? As you open this video up by saying the meta is shifting towards possibly more slugging and less hooking and you do a whole video about slugging and its effectiveness. Miss me with that.
Not everyone has the same goalposts and mentality when it comes to fun. Some people used to just play demo to get ontop of a locker and jumpscare a survivor. Survivors would love that or hate it (they're not being chased and just sat on gens). Some people enjoy winning and other people just enjoy going for nice hits/clips. Everyone is different. As for the WGLF buff its not only unwarranted but super unhealthy as it has no counter when combined with MFT. It is another classic example of bhvr tinkering with a perk because of its lack of use rate and making it broken.
exactly. people encouraging slugging instead of hooking have no idea what they are doing in the long run. they are literally giving bhvr a reason to add a breakable base kit.
A take from a new player: i started dbd on October 5th i have about 60 hours in game now on a mix of ghostface, the good guy, spirit: then survivor are feng and lara. While at first my gameplay tried to emulate the traditional hook naturally it evolved to a mix of hook and slug. Being new to the game was already a massive setback on top of the disadvantage that comes with killer. I quickly learned that being a traditional killer was personally not an option. With the new mori system i do typically leave one of the last 2 survivors on the ground and go for the hook on the second one. Maybe killers playing more slimy will force survivors to run a uncomfortable/uncommon perks ruining their typical perk synergy.
I still found it telling that generally as killer players, we didn't enjoy slugging. (Alf's a monster what do you want with me. XD) Like, overall we didn't WANT slugging to be the stronger play style.
I think that comes more from the Survivor playbook than anything. We've all been conditioned into trying to play in a way that makes it more fun for the other side when they don't do anything to make it more fun for us.
@@iXSIKOBOIXi Pretty much this. If there's a thing I absolutely hate above all else, it's getting salt in endgame chat (or worse: an angry spiteful hacker on a revenge quest to screw with your system/account/etc), so that conditioned me into playing by the survivor rulebook and loosing most of my matches to 2k's and 1k's. Ideally, the game should be well-balanced enough *_not_* to produce such an arbitrary set of outside rules established by players and enforced by the threat of toxicity, but DBD being an experimental competitive game with spaghetti code and devs of questionable talent is what allowed the survivor rulebook to blossom in the community. I'm not even bothered that I have to play by survivor rules--I just wish playing by such rules was the most efficient and beneficial way for killers to play as well. But it sadly isn't.
Survivors are so used to hooking, they fail to understand that slugging is part of the game. It’s not op, it’s just everyone is basically a beginner to this play style, like they just started playing the game
4 survivors on the floor is literally uncounterable without perks, occasional unplanned slugging when there is a good snowball is fine but killers that intentionally bring a slugging build and bleed everyone out is unfair and unfun for everyone involved
@@ymer6587 4 survivors on hook and there is nothing they can do??? Like that doesn’t prove anything also it’s legit better for killers to hook than to slug
@@mattheworzol6405 A. If you’re actually hooking survivors they’ll just die instantly on hook when they reach 3rd stage which before that they can do stuff AKA the objectives B. Statistically no a 4-man slug will basically always end in a 4K
@@ymer6587 your point a: when you down a survivor, the other survivors on the map can come and save you instantly if you recover, and the others can still do objectives, the only difference being that the slugged survivor loses health slower. Point B: 4 survivors on hooks is an Instant win anyways, so your point of “4 downs is a win” is invalid
@@mattheworzol6405 with the slugging build the first statement is ignored since it’s removed from said equation and you can’t just insta hook all 4 survivors? Assuming they’d be on first hook they would all have the chance of self unhooking although low chance, they could also possibly wiggle off
People say survivors have no business complaining about slugging, because they could've used anti slugging perks like unbreakable. That's like saying you have no business complaining about flooding because you could've bought flood insurance. It doesn't change the fact that floods suck. Survivors can hate slugging, and still not use perks for it because most of the time it's not going to get any value. Thankfully, slugging is still uncommon.
Well apparently the Data shows that slugging is actually very valuable as almost across the board the killers won more games when Slugging than when hooking
@@iXSIKOBOIXiI mean yeah obviously holding the survivors hostage whilst they bleed out will result in a 4K, and yes killers that go into a match with the intention of slugging will almost always bleed the survivors out
@@zedsdemise7586 it kind of is considering survivors literally can’t do anything at all, just how survivors hiding is. Sure it can’t last until the server shuts down but I think you know what I mean by that
What bothers me the most here is that so many players on both sides view everything as an us vs. them and don’t care about how tedious the game is, they only care about winning. In a game that is this imbalanced. It’s ridiculous. Some people really need to be ignored when it comes to slugging, proxy camping, tunnelling and killer bullying. Fun MUST come first. Design elements where players spent large parts of the game doing nothing must be destroyed.
Everytime I suffer a crushing defeat (3 or 4 escapes) is because there was one or two survs rushing gens like crazy. And sometimes you have to tunnel someone out as a plan B for winning and it's pretty frustrating that A LOT of survs have their entire build composed of crutches. Slugging make them lose A LOT of time and counter these crutches. Add Knockout and 3rd Seal to it and BAM! Tried it yesterday and had a smoother experience. If survs were limited to one crutch per build, gens weren't done so fast and BHVR was more competent at dealing with Turbo Tunneling we wouldn't have to slug and survs wouldn't have a full crutch build.
It’s crazy how people complain about everything. I’ve been playing this game since 2019 and the only thing I’ve really complained about was the matchmaking whenever it was really bad. I enjoy the game and I don’t care about how other people play. People should be able to play however they want. I understand it’s annoying but it isn’t as serious as people say.
i´ll be honest here. slugging is the most annoying style to kill you lay there 4 minutes and do abolutly nothing if the killer is strong. i hate it and its no fun. will never understsnad why you wouild do this. its a game that you want to win, sure. but is it worth to make many survs quit the game? because if i would be slugged and bleed out 4 times in a row i would just quit for the day. just no fun
This is weird to suggest slugging is better and then whine when the other side doesnt want to play anymore. Dont bitch about going next if you want to create scenarios that discourage people from wanting to play anymore. Making it unfun on purpose because you want a cheap grey area of the objective is slowly killing the game. Both sides need eachother.
The plethora of second chance perks on the survivor side makes the game very unfun, but killers rarely DC. Survivors just need to get over their entitled selves and play the game. If you really struggle against slugging where you literally have 4 whole minute to get the person up again, you're just bad at the game. Improve and stop complaining.
Honestly, considering the devs will always change the game to bring the percentage of victory/loss of killers where they think is right, is it even worth trying to find a playstyle more advantageous to the killers than the game already is? Aside rare opportunistic slugging or intentional slugging because of certain builds, I kinda hope this video will have the same effect of those that provoked the anti camping feature, especially considering how easy is to get 4kills already, even without add-ons or against good survivors, reaching way more than 70% of our games. To be honest, i rather play the game as it is intended by the devs and avoid other killer nerfs, than to play a game that is unfun for the other 4 people on the ground, causing DC that ruin the experience of the game or having to extend even more the matchup time to find other survivors to play against. At the end of the day, there are four other people behind those survivors, people that want to play too and i know that always winning isn't the intended experience for killers. So just enjoy playing the damn game, ignore the toxicity of teabagging survivors caused by other toxic killers, always give hatch because you are morally superior, and always equip Lightborne for the satisfaction of saying "No" to flashlight teams.
Time-stamps for other viewers
00:00 Introduction/Disclaimer
2:43 The actual experiment
6:10 Winrate's
7:45 Survivor Reactions + perks
10:18 Map Data
13:00 Conclusion
16:27 Dracula
17:08 Vecna
17:42 Unknown
18:33 Chucky
19:20 Xeno
20:00 Singularity
20:45 Skull-Merchant
21:23 Knight
21:58 Wesker
22:35 Dredge
23:06 Sadako
23:38 Artist
24:22 Pinhead
24:48 Nemesis
25:25 Trickster
26:05 Blight
26:27 Pyramid-head
27:07 Deathslinger
27:37 Oni
28:07 Plague
28:35 Legion
29:12 Spirit
29:52 Clown
31:14 Pig
31:56 Freddy
32:27 Bubba
33:08 Huntress, Lee ruined the 100% kill-rate good job Lee >:(
33:45 Doctor
34:14 Hag (hag player is color-blind, filters are required for them to play the game)
34:50 Myers
35:27 Nurse
35:55 HillBilly
36:34 Wraith
37:23 Trapper
i totally didn't pay em to do this btw
@@Carniveris how much was it
@@Borf1987 i gotta predrop for noice dailies now :c
Lee would ruin something smh
@@Carniverisshould have asked king Wolfe for Ghostface
850% win rate Hag, Massive W for the granny
bruh nerf hag
Wait, isn't she a teen? Or very young at least? She had such depressing lore.
@@TheStygian but she looks like granny , but yeah she isn't
@@ZarejuNax Ever seen dried up meat? It was fairly common in the past and resistant to mold......and yeah, i guess we have the same situation here (or alternatively is a kind of mummification inside the mud).
Oh yeah, especially with the camping at hook to place 3-6 traps around it lol
When I think of slugging, I have to think of the game I had where me and my buddy loaded in with two randoms. None brought a flashlight, not one of us had a crazy meta built, and nobody bullied the killer. Hell, one of the survivors had 82 hours in the game.
It was a pig who had a slugging build. We all quickly went down. She then neither put traps on us nor hooked, she simply let us all bleed out while humping me for 4 minutes. Judging by comments on her profile, that was the usual game style for her.
For me as a survivor and killer main, I absolutely understand the need to slug in certain situations. I don't mind that, just like camping or whatever. Sometimes you just have to. But going into a game with the purpose to slug, especially if there's one person who's really good at looping just takes the fun out for me. Like great, that one person can run the killer for 3 minutes but we are all on the floor just watching from the distance while bleeding out. Or, well, you die with 1k points because everybody got downed. Isn't the purpose of the game to basically play tag? I'm not the best looper at all, but I want to have fun in this silly game. Dcing survivors and slugging killers take that away so much that I haven't touched the game in 2 months.
Ive been in that situation before and honestly i i always expect the loss as a solo queqe survivor so i didnt really care. I just went back to killer after the match anyway
That pig was me
Maybe
Which map
@@GregPiggotI feel this is the biggest reason you see “killer” TH-camrs make more videos over winning. Survivor is a role that the expectation is you’ll die due to relying on 3 other people. Killer feels worse because when you play bad it’s just you.
You don’t see survivors playing to win the whole match. You see them playing for good loops or good singular plays. While killers are constantly thinking about stopping everyone. So if I get a good flashlight play I’m happy. If I loop for 2 gens I’m happy. If I get 4 cross map snipes with huntress but they still 2 out I feel bad. And I have to be mindful of that on killer so I don’t take it out on other survivors. From what I hear and what I see it’s a similar mental thing. But idk. Just something I’ve noticed over the years.
Freddy’s high salt rate is definitely due to the fact the survivors bled out to one of the worst killers in the game 😂
Just the fact they lost is enough
Freddy is really so hard to play, trying to play him without any perks at all makes it nearly impossible, as I'm not a killer main, neither play Freddy enough to be a master, when I play killer I usually prefer twins, they're fun😅
True lol
He 100% is not one of the weakest lmao I play Freddy almost all the time he’s my second fav besides ghostface and I get at least 2 kills every game most the time 3 or 4
@@EzekielPhillips-ep7vb I can't play him really well, and he is hard for me to play, he is one of the weakest killers according to otz killer tier list and several others.
Plus, I played without any perks for a personal challenge, which makes it more than extremely hard for me to get a 4k I did too get 2k and sometimes 3k, but it was unnecessarily exhausting
As a survivor main, slugging makes the match feel nearly impossible and as such most of the time results in MANY DCs. People hate having their time wasted and slugging completely wastes all survivors time.
Fr I hate being bled out
And thats why it is a loose loose situation, no one wants to have their time wasted, but if the killer doesnt they are put into a flat disadvantage. Slugging wastes survivors time, while not slugging wasted the killers time because unless they are a really good killer there is not much they can do.
@@hde1008an average killer should be able to get a 3-4K without a 4-man slug at the start
Cry then 😂
@@farcried8279 I can’t tell actually a reply to me cus it doesn’t make perfect sense..
"Clown had an incredibly in-depth review" I'd expect nothing less from arinad what a man
BHVR might see this, understand the existence of a problem and then just decide to buff anti-slugging perks for survivors.
this was just a convoluted way to get my bp back into bbq so if they see this pls gimme my bbq tokens back
@@Carniveristhem removing the bp incentive from BBQ really changed things didn’t it
Idk how this is a problem. A good sfw can easily win tbh, Also its not enough that bhvr nerfed Almost Every gen defense perk and Buffed surv perks.. Also what Buff to anti slugging are u thinking about?
nah bro, theyll nerf pig, trust
Lol, what problem?
awesome video, kinda insane how much better the game feels when you just dont do the objective
Your content is my favorite since returning to the game after 2v8!
come to brazil
@@Carniveris r/suddenlycaralho ?
Kill survivors= objective fulfilled
Is killing survivors not the objective?
Everyone in the experiment: "WOW slugging IS so much better! 🥰"
My Xeno in the same experiment: 😨
Xeno and slugging just feels bad because a lot of times you can hook near a tunnel and make it back to tunnel or pressure the unhooker. It’s not any more advantageous than tunneling from what I’ve found.
Xeno and slugging IS bad. It’s how I lost my twitch acc. Some toxic weeb swf mass reported and stalked me after the last match. Never do slugmorph.
Xeno is kinda odd for slugging, the point of slugging is if you see someone to pick up the down survivor or try to you get em, but Xeno spend most of the time underground.
Hi bran!!!
@@Wizardbeard91 Heyo o/
As a survivor main, at some point even with anti-slugging perks it becomes pretty much impossible to reset for a solo or duo q team.
Just yesterday i had a game vs Nurse who was slugging, probably didnt leave a 5m radius 90% of the game. Unbreakable and p100 teammates, decent synergy for a solo q team and having personally picked up teammates at least 5 times, eventually they bleed out upon being downed. Managed to complete 2 gens. Given that i wasnt on the ground most of the game, i didnt feel too salty but it did feel like a massive waste of time with no good solution.
All my teammates played their best and no one DCed but honestly we never stood a chance unless we just ignored the downed person and let them bleed out for the start. Its games like that where i wonder why even play DBD. If killers play like that every game no one is going to play survivor anymore.
Edit: To comments saying let them bleed, I can only dictate my play in solo matches. If my team isnt going to leave a slug or all 3 are about to be slugged and I can pick someone up I'm going to, because I want people to be able to play the game.
Ultimately the point is that the game should not be played that way and if so many killers are going to just because they can, then there should be a mechanic to counter it built into the base game. Hell, even a vote to surrender would be acceptable. Like this isn't a rare thing, sometimes its multiple games in a single night.
Let them bleed, it's not gonna hurt them. They still have 3 hook states regardless of bleed out time. If you get gens done instead of allowing a snowball of picking up, of course it will be hard. You're not forcing them to go to gens. If they know you're not on gens, why would they not patrol around the slug?
If I was the slug I'd be screaming to do gens and crawl as far out of the way as possible. If they're giving you gens for 1 slug, take it. I don't mind being bled out as long as my time on the ground leads to progression. If they wanna camp me, let them. I got 2 mins, if you all sit on a gen, they have a decision to make now. Sit by me and risk possibly watching a 5th gen pop or going to those gens and allowing a reset. 90 seconds per gen, that's 3 done. You could mathematically do them all before I bleed out. Again, it's all about forcing that decision on them.
Don't fall into a pickup/down snowball. That will always lose you the game.
@@WutTheDeuceGaming Most Survivor mains don't have the patience or the unselfish mindset required to use that obvious and very effective strategy, though.
@@WutTheDeuceGamingif one person has to not get to enjoy the entire game that doesn’t sound like a strategy it sounds like griefing
@@2Evol2 I'd say it depends on the mindset of the one who's downed. Like the OP of that comment said; "If I was the Slug" So they have the mindset that as long as progress is being made, they don't care about being down for a while. If more people had that mindset rather than "I need to be up and doing stuff all the time, who cares about progress/winning?", then survivors might see more wins racking up. Fun is subjective, and unless you get a team full of people who share your idea of fun, then anything can be seen as griefing (if 3 of the 4 survivors find it fun winning, but you don't really care about that and don't do what you can to achieve it, then you're griefing those 3. While on the opposite end, if you're serious about winning and you get 3 party members who don't care and just run around not doing the objectives, then that might feel like griefing as well.)
I don't want to be mean but you said you played decently well, but that the killer managed to slug 2 people to death (8 mins) with only 2 gens done, with nurse only 5m away from them...
Do you realise how stupid it is from survivors being slugged to stay on the same area, allowing the killer to slug multiple people and being able to keep line of sight to put them back down if they are picked up
Since you only completed 2 gens during this 8 mins(impossible) the only explanation is that both of this survivor got slug at the same time and stayed together allowing the killer a more efficient playstyle
I agree one of them should of have died in the end with the killer camping ontop of them but it still takes 4 mins which is enough for the others to escape, without even counting chase time
You guys could of have played this better than you did, I know there is only so much you can do in soloq but it's still up to the survivors to learn how to play
"As someone who does plays survivor I acknowledge that this isn't the most fun play style to go against."
YOU
DON'T
SAY
I mean, neither is tunneling. Thats why you take your very meta anti-tunneling perks. If the meta changes, then just take different perks. The handicap survivors have right now with OTR alone is ridiculous.
@@BBS-dl1lt I prefer getting aggressively tunneled vs getting slugged. At least when I'm getting tunneled I have multiple chases and get to actually PLAY A GAME instead of crawling around on the ground hoping that someone else can manage to pick me up.
@@BecketTheHymnist why do you make it sound like slugging=bleeding out. Unless your teammates are terrible, they’ll just pick you up. It’s easier the pick someone off the ground than it is to pull them down from hook.
@@BecketTheHymnist then protest that behaviour makes hooking viable again
@@BBS-dl1ltDid you just call OTR a handicap? My brother in Christ, survivors who use OTR can't do *anything* for 80 seconds or they've just wasted a perk slot
Ironic that salt kills a slug, due to it being mostly made of water
Im pretty sure slugging evaporated my soul but also added thirty years to my life due to how much less stressful it was
No soul, no problem! Just become Vecna and transcend flesh with your years of life.
Hey if it makes you feel better every time I am slugged to death also adds 30 years to my life because afterwards I stop playing DBD for a couple weeks. lol
Personally, I find the data heavily flawed due to lack of consistency. It would be extremely boring to get extremely consistent data, but unfortunately, a topic like this NEEDS hyper-specific data to accurately come to a conclusion on such a subject.
The video is really good, but holy hell I did NOT have a good time slugging 😭 I legitimately feel like I was freed from my shackles after the ten games were over.
nemmy main free to tunnel once more
@@Carniveris you are so cruel to me i would never i am a good noodle
Go on being the awesome killer you are while not relying on cheap or cruel tactics. Go noodle Nemmy! 🥰
Hats off to you for adding your data to this experiment.
34:35 wow, Hag winning 850% of slugging games really makes you reconsider her on the killer tierlist :o
Big meaty claws elevated the win rate
Hag is better than most give her credit for.
I'd be in a random match as killer then just have the game end with a merciless victory and message saying "Hag won their game so you do too!"
Hag was top 5 and got power crept, she’s really fucking good
@@dkres82yeah hag like a solid a tier maybe high b
Oh sick. I’ve been seeing so many content creators mention you asked them about this, and I’ve been expectantly refreshing your channel excited to see the culmination. Let’s go!
A few production errors will always be my downfall, but I am very happy with the end result! Thank you for the support!!
Just want to thank you for putting all this together! As a software dev (Not a dbd dev) myself I like looking at community driven experiments like this because they are very insightful! I hope you continue to enjoy the game and bring out more interesting discussions like this!
Glad you enjoy it! I really appreciate that!
i think "using the scientific method to prove why bhvr doesn't understand their own game" is my new favourite genre of dbd videos
I can almost garaumtee at this point they're going to buff anti slug instead of buffing regression perks after hooks
Thank you for the killer specific review of the video. Its quite rare for these analysis videos to fully account for the killer variation.
I am still sad I was missing three characters, but I'm so thankful for everything that participated!!
Honestly, if a slugging meta happened, I'd just quit playing. Every match with a slugging or tunneling killer is boring, uninteresting, and just...feels malicious.
When I play survivor I like being slugged. Since I can still move around and sneak around lol. Being hooked takes away all control from me, so it’s boring lol. (Plus I run soul guard, so if I really want to get back up. I can.)
However BHVR just needs make hook counts actually matter for Killers instead of kills. Because as this video basically shows. The incentive to slug and tunnel is literally the best and only way to really do anything as killer.
I actually think there are so many Anti-Slug perks out there that if the meta became slugging there would be no problems just switching to "Unbreakable, We're gonna life forever, MFT and Exponential". It's really not that hard if everyone is doing it. It only feels bad because people bring anti-tunnel perks which reward you for being unhooked, so if you don't get hooked you can't benefit.
I frequently think about quitting right now because of how prominent gen rush perks or exhaustion perks are.
@@iXSIKOBOIXithe problem is, if survivors are going to make their builds against slugging meta, then tunnelling will become much stronger.
there’re not enough slots to “anti-things”
I think the problem should be solved at the ground level
@@kapkeik4681 The solution: BHVR getting their head out of their arse and actually show what people bring in the lobby, this way soloQ don´t continue to get horribly screwed over and they can bring a semblance of balance into the match.
It´s ridiculous that this has not been added years ago already.
Dbd is one of the most dogshit designed games EVER made, gamemodes, monetisation, survivor - killer balance, 80% of killers being straight garbage compared to high tier killers, absolute trash map rng, the list goes on, lack of games in the same genre keeps it alive
0:14 Timestamps for those with short attention spans. Idk if 40 sections and 40 minutes of information is easy to remember for a lot of people.
Timestamps in the form of chapters and the pinned comment should have the section that those are looking for! I mentioned it with the assumption of people probably just wanting to see how their main/favorite content creator did.
I remember when I went for only Slug playstyle with Sadako. Using her "stealth" and mobility to ambush, injure and eventually down survivors all across the map. OG Sloppy, Nurses Calling, Knockout and Third Seal. At first I did because it was a thing I haven't played at all, but then I won a game with 4k... then another... then another.... I end up going 26 games win streak, with every single one being 4k. And thing is, streak could probably keep going up if not for me just stop playing this way completely. (It is ultimately boring. Efficent, but boring)
Sadako
This video will make unbreakable basekit
Slugging for strategic value is always smart. Sometimes, you just need to apply pressure on three fronts. Someone on hook, someone bleeding out on the ground, and another person in chase. Keeps the 4th off Gens.
Yeah but most killers nowadays slugs all and right at the start of the game, I actually respect slugging strategically more than their whole freaking intent.
@@franzukato2822except slugging 24/7 is still very effective so what's your point lol , upset at killers for using effective tactics ? If it's SOOOO boring then hold the devs accountable
@@isaansari9838”strategically” burn that in your mind and read what me and the comment above me has said, heck I used it too when I encountered flashlight, sabo and gen rush bully squad but using it for the sake of slugging all and just wait all survivors to bleed out is boring and stupid specially if you want to farm bloodpoints or even earn bloodpoints, I will repeat again strategic slugging I respect cause there are survivors that are oppressing aswell specially great ones and as a killer you must do everything you can to stop them if you want to win but not hooking anyone at all is time wasting for both sides, bear in mind aswell huntress was the killer I used when I slugged 4 survivors and being shitheads hahaha, with a literal farming perks distressing , beast of prey, thrill of the hunt, and extra perk like going for faster breaking action.
@@CelesQuinnworst when you get gen rushing , saboing, flashlight wielding survivors in one game hahaha soooo satisfying slugging all 4 of them even contemplated letting them all bleed out but wanted those sweet sweet bloodpoints more 😂.
I'm actually SO EXTREMELY HAPPY you decided to make this video! I've tested this myself and realized that slugging is heavily promoted on most killers. I'm hoping that Behavior sees this so that they realize just how prominent it is. It's not fun personally-both slugging and being slugged-and I hope there's a way we can resolve this in a healthy manner before the rules of the game changes and EVERYONE starts to do the same.
I’m just confused on what the point of this discussion even is. You said yourself that survivors are unprepared for this playstyle which allowed it to really shine, but then provided stats where it’s an uncommon meta where killers performed better, when… I don’t really see why that matters? If survivors start experiencing this meta, they’ll just adapt, bring anti slug, and then we’re just in the exact same boat but the video game is less fun for everyone. I just don’t understand. I can understand your point that it feels like time is being taken from killers, but the stats don’t lie. Killers when 7/10 games, which is a LOT, and survivors lose almost every game on average. Only 30% of perks were anti tunnel. I just don’t get it. This narrative that killers are losing time and survivors are weaponizing anti tunnel and it’s putting killers at a disadvantage just feels like confirmation bias. They’re winning. They win 75% of the time. That’s a LOT. Why does it need to be more often?
I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but it genuinely feels like the survivor experience isn’t being taken into account for stuff like this. The game going in a slugging direction would be DETRIMENTAL to the health and vibes of the game. Nobody would want to play anymore. So I’m just trying to understand what exactly you’re trying to say with this video. Full respect, I love me some stats, not trying to come off as a bitch, I’m just genuinely curious and honestly baffled.
I did acknowledge the survivor experience, but this was genuinely about data and the killer playstyle and adjustment to the experiment at hand, not necessarily focusing on survivor feelings, so I'm sorry if you feel like I'm ignoring their wellbeing. I'm not trying to state anything other than from my own personal experience as Killer from what's be frustrating over the last month or so of meta and to see if other killers feel the same. Despite anti-tunnel perks being comprised of /only/ 30%, they were also the perks that have been the most notable. Even without the experiment at hand, I don't notice the stress of deja vu more than I notice the frustration of off the record and decisive strike being weaponized in my face. Of course it's not fun to be slugged, but why is it that there's an overall higher winrate percentage when you ignore a main component of the game? 70% of win rate is perfectly fine, I agree, but when an overwhelming majority of killers acknowledged that their games are easier and less stressful when you negate hooking, it's something to be aware of. I am not trying to fix any meta or offer solutions, and the flows of builds to adapt to playstyles isn't anything new. You can have a counter to everything in the game, of course people can see builds being adjusted as a result. Again, this was just a fun video showcasing data based around an experiment spawned from tweets and forum posts I've seen.
Great killer on their main with a great build win 75% of the game showed in the experiment. You're totaly right, you just forgot that not every killer is those participant.
"The game going in a slugging direction would be DETRIMENTAL to the health and vibes of the game." I thought that was the entire premise of the video, looks to me like you missed the point. It shouldn't make the experience harder for the killer if they're hooking survivors, when it takes all the effort to get them on the hook in the first place.
One point I'd like to add to this is the fact that a lot of these killers are very good at what they do. Just take momo and alf (both winning over 1k games in a row) an "average" killer is unlikely to perform as well during these games if they played under the same circumstances.
DBD STATS IS EVIDENCE GUYS 🤡🤡
Lets pretend that survivors don't dc, give up on hook or just suck complete ass at looping.
8:20 It's completely insane to me that the Survivor side of the game has gotten this bad. I don't even want to PLAY Surv anymore because people do this so much. This data means that even if BHVR removed your ability to die on first hook on purpose, people would just DC, which I guess is still better because then you'd get a bot, and bots know to do gens and actually get their flashlight saves.
But the quitter epidemic is out of control. I feel like it's every other game, regardless of if I'm killer or survivor, and regardless of which killer I play or how. It's just a coinflip if each person's first hook is gonna be their last.
For everyone panicking, idk how this is problem, if slugging outperform only in getting more 4k than 3k
Sum percentage of 0-2k for slugging and hooking basically even(difference is single game)
And from the video it's not really clear how many hatches there was. I'm pretty sure that hooking had more hatches escapes and it's difference surely affected final result.
I think it's a big loss not including amount of hatches escapes.
But i must say that having results for every single killer was really good
Not gonna lie despite slugging and tunneling being looked down upon, with all the second chance perks, flashlights and instant pops of gens, I simply don't care. I want to try and win even if I'm gonna get hate for it. Especially when I see so many talking about the need for the survivors to have fun, which yes they do, but then these survivors will proceed to taunt and troll the moment that things fall into their favor.
like honestly, if winning is all that killers are thinking of that they're thinking "oh im going to slug survivors until they die and cant do anything" then just give me a free DC. You can have the win idgaf. I'd rather go next. At this point, the survivor isnt even playing the game.
I’m shocked at how little the amount of salt I received compared to the other players. Like that’s wild in comparison. 👀
Same with bubba :>
850% winrate on slugging hag is so strong, I strive for the day where i can put 12 people on the floor at once. What a blissful utopia we would be in if this were possible.
I really like these kind of videos that try to analize the game with data
That being said, this experiment sort of feels like you want to see which fish dish is the tastiest, but you're changing the chef, the temperature you're cooking, how long you're cooking, changing the garnish, changing the sauce, changing the fish,changing the quality of the ingredients, changing the judges all at the same time
Amazing video!!! I was glad to participate! It's very interesting to see how universally slugging resulted in better outcomes for almost every killer!
Except Ghostface apparently, he's not here.
There's hybrids of this too, hooking one person and slugging the rest for example
Finally got to see who created the slug experiment. Tbh been waiting for weeks lol
i love the knight dead by daylight (slugging withered my soul away though)
omg its tarhos kovacs wife!
As a knight main, I did not know I had a wife.
Knight bagged himself a maiden
Was super fascinating to get some insight on this while people were recording footage for this. Great report!
W video, happy to be a part of it! I hope my excel comments gave you some laughs, and as always, bubba diff :)
We equipping WGLF after this one ‼
WGLF Comeback??!?!?
literally the perk why I slug lol
That wraith player was cooking
With the amout of perks surviors get from unhooking and the risks of sabo and blinds.... Yeah slugs are better
slugging is at its best when it’s only 3 survivors. Pro matches focus on tunnel 1 person, then slug the other 3 to win.
Killers need incentives to hook not only with perks but at base kit. At this moment, due to most of the survivor meta perks being related to hooking and being so relevant, slugging just became the stronger alternative.
Now, I actually think that going from the 4 man slug playstyle from the get go is not actually that good on most killers, but if you are able to get two people down, it'd be more optimal to go for the other two (depending on the killer).
A combination of a hook and multiple slugs would be a good combo for a lot of killers but the point still stands that focusing on slugs is stronger than focusing on hooks.
It is nothing new, though. Slugging always had the advantage, that you can set your sights on whatever, straight after getting the dying state. That will always be a tactical reality, no matter what.
@@MightyJabroni That is true, but due to the current meta its just more value overall, hence why you see it more often.
I think a good idea would be 5% haste for 10 seconds after hooking and Monstrous Shrine baser kit for all hooks
OMG THIS VIDEO IS SO GOODDD you put so much work into this and it shows!! you did amazing!!
I've been drawn about this a long time as someone who primarily plays trickster.
I'm generally a 12 hook gamer, but current iteration of trickster has snowball potential. This is made worse by not really having map presence and the more common prevalence of not just anti-tunnel, but worse, AGGRESSIVE anti-tunnel. It's not to have ds and otr to prevent the tunnel, it's to force the use of them to waste my valuable time.
Why, then, should I not slug? Now multiple instances of strong perks aren't getting use. Now I'm turning a frustrating game into one where I'm firmly in control. It's a combination of design choice by the devs and game choice by the players and it's generally confusing.
That being said, I'm not a Saturday morning cartoon villain. I don't really care about the outcome of this game and prefer running no slowdown, off meta perks and my favorite outcome is 8 hooks, no kills, and a friendly end game after a fun game. But if I'm leaning forward in my raid shadow legends g fuel gaming chair because this team is being annoying, there's rarely an incentive to hook in current patch.
Always remember. If survivors are using anti-tunnel perks offensively they are effectively slugged. They cannot progress any game objective or heal others without losing the perks. This is good for you...
and also I can use trickster’s power more which is much more fun
I started playing DBD a short time ago and I use your videos to learn, your content is incredible
You should try doctor, with knockout+sloppy butcher+claustrophobia+ Distressing. An do not hook survivors. Just slug them. It’s pretty easy, and fun. (Put the add ons, discipline and order. You can also trade out sloppy butcher, for septic touch too).
Can I ask what makes it fun?
@@schmoferino Winning. Survivors being unable to rescue others
i try not to slug but when they have flashlights and i see them trying hide cover....i cant help but take the advantage of it...and at endgame they complain i slug..even though they force me to...
I understand that. If you sabotage or blind you have to expect slugging as a counter.
This is the reason I got slugged 3 matches in a row the other day?
Ghostface main here:
IMO, 4 man slugging can be more harmful than helpful for Ghostface because downed people can still reveal you, making it harder to use your power. Hooking survivors allows you to control where they are and prevent them from moving. If they’re moving around, they can reveal you MUCH easier
I did that once to a slugging GF. Had tenacity because it was part of a meme build I use, just followed him and revealed him until he was fed up with my antics
I slug. Not proud to admit it, but most survivors are just so toxic for no reason, I try to play as a fair and fun killer and almost everytime I mess up they bad me and point at me. Or spam flashlight, it's gotten to the point were I'm so tired of it I just slug with twins.
A shame since I don't wanna
As if I had read (literally watched) an article in a scientific journal, it is very pleasant to contemplate such a volume of work, comparisons! I have a positive viewing experience, thank you very much!
Thank you!! I really appreciate that! The data analysis was one of my favorite parts about this entire process!
Honestly, Behavior only has themselves to blame for this one. Just have a survivor auto hook after say 20 seconds on the furthest hook from the killer and you would improve the flow of the game immensely for both sides, as survivors wouldn't be left to bleed out forever, killers wouldn't have to carry long distances from corners if they didn't want to, and it would promote more chased based gameplay. Right now, hanging only 1 survivor until they are dead and slugging the rest is really the best way to play most killers and it honestly shouldn't be that way.
Hag's winrate from 90% to 850%
Stonks
Slugging also results in less bloodpoints after the match , as a Killer main I disdain this play style boring for me to play as the killer, absolutely infuriating to play survivor against, as both as a killer and survivor I care more for the bloodpoints than of the rankings.
Edit I was talking about those shitty killers that their sole intent was just to slug all survivors and let all bleed on the ground not even hooking anyone from the match , strategic slugging where you slug some or even all if they are being pests and then proceed to hook them is what I respect cause some survivors do be running gen rush, sabo, flash builds in coordinated fashion sometimes.
Yet another amazing reason why hook stages should be the determining "win" factor instead of kills.
My biggest issue is the slugging mechanic is a common form of griefing. Examples, a killer I had in 1 match used Dracula to slug everyone and hump on the floor then trolled in end game chat, his entire profile is every comments of the guy doing this for MONTHS. Next game, I had the same guy and he recognised me and targeted, there is no way I would have known I would be matched against the same guy because usernames are hidden yet killers can see our name are target.
Another time I was using the Witch outfit, the killer kept downing me and slugging me ONLY, I was on death hook and nobody was near by, he hooked everyone even when they were on death hook and prolong me on the ground so I left, I wasted my items, offerings and lost bloodpoints because I can only play few hours when lucky.
And I was also slugged in the void, the killer slugged other people but because I was in the void he held me hostage and I couldn't leave it even when I got up with unbreakable. He taunted me, and followed on top of me.
Also a killer decided to camp on top of me and slug, whilst shooting things at me at the floor, they said the reason in chat which wasn't true at all, my teammates defended me too.
Another time I saw a killer slug someone else for trying to go next, and tried to be a hero by saying they didn't want them to go next to affect the teammate, yet the guy was playing scummy either way lmao. I went next. Trying to punish someone isn't helping other people, people will try go for the save then we get downed, how is that 'helping', but trying to fuel your ego.
Anyways I uninstalled the game, event mode was unplayable because killers found a way to keep people hostage in the void and now there are people with only -rep in the comments for slugging and humping. This form of griefing has been happening in every single event mode, yet the regular mode it is rare. Many people I know have quit because of this, and I have quit too. One mechanic is actively destroying their game, so either they remove it or ban killers abusing it maliciously in order to prevent a player from playing. You cannot have an abusive mechanic and not regulate it with rules, the biggest issue with this game is the lack of moderation. Survivors griefing other survivors is common as well and they will not issue bans even with video evidence. Example, a duo were body blocking me and teaming with the killer, also spamming lockers were I was, I sent the video evidence to BHVR and showed proof they were in each other friend list, they never got banned. Enjoy playing an unmoderated game that will die before 2030.
Also why is that mechanic in the game that removes the entire point of second chances? So if every killer slugs in this game, second chances doesn't exist anymore, and casual players have no chance of learning the game. Plus in the vent mode I am seeing brand NEW players who are being slugged and targeted.
waa
Yea its embarrassing getting humped when slugged for some reason, 1 time i tried making best of it by spinning in circles to make it hard for them to do and tried laughing about it but it gets to ya sometimes :/ made me uncomfortable, yet i still come back to the game for some reason to get event items then leave again. i want to enjoy it because i love the characters and stuff but honestly just pretty stressful
Because if they try to change it the game would be unbearable for killers
I think a good way to anti slug is to make it so downed survivors can heal other downed survivors... slowly
I’m a survivor main, married to a killer main. We both agree with your video. SoloQ is a disaster but also killers have it rough in surprising ways survivors can’t often notice.
I really hope this kind of data keeps coming out it because I think it’s a much stronger case for BHVR since it’s actual trackable.
I love the approach. I will be tuning in for your future experiments ❤
Excellent video! Was wondering where you had gone and had hoped you were okay. Definitely worth the wait. You know, there's been many days where I wondered, what if I just slugged to win instead of hooking, and then this video comes out. I was getting so close to making a slugging build to fk around and find out. Thanks for the information. Once again, great video!
Lets gooo, really well made video!!
lees failing cj compilation next btw
@@Carniveris It's going to be a REALLY short video
Personally I only slug when is like 2 survivors or I KNOW if someone is near, especially if I am around a pallet or they use Flashlight. Otherwise Hook. I just try to take advantage of the situation so I dont hook somebody and 3 gens pops out of nothing
It's not a surprise. Hooking is not just risky and creates no pressure but it's outright forced downtime on the killer. It's the game literally giving survivors a free break to sit on gens
I would say it depends massively. Lots of builds provide you with a big incentive to hooking a survivor (pop, pain res, bbq). If you hook the survivor in basement next to a 3 gen you have just gained a massive amount of pressure on every killer in the game. Smart survivors will try to run you away from the gens that need completed and that's when you are losing pressure as killer. To counter this as killer you just have to learn when its best to drop chase, when to tunnel when to play more passively and protect a strong close set of gens. That is why Momo (as an example) is one of the best blights in the game (imo), he is fantastic at using blights power, knows who to chase, when to drop chase and what areas of the map work best with his kit for blight.
This.
Remember when hooking was supposed to be a scary thing?
I feel survivors need to learn to deal with or switch side to see why killer have to slug and tunnel and it is a game .
First, if you consider a 3k a win, the two are almost exactly even in results. But also man, even as someone who generally prefers killer, I cannot get over the intro talking about how rough killers have it followed immediately by "So anyway killers 4ked in 74% of their games without slugging"
I mean these are some of the best killers in the world. Not sure what you expect. The overall winrate stats for each killer are also scuffed due to all the DCs and inting on first hook. In the competitive scene, the game appears to be slightly more survivor sided at the moment. She very clearly pointed out all the current problems with hooking currently. Forced time sink, opens the door to the very strong, very meta second chance perks, weak anti gen perks as a tradeoff, and a buffed hookstate timer that makes it even closer to the bleedout timer.
@@BBS-dl1lt Never use competitive DBD to judge the balance state of the game for the general playerbase. They are not playing the same game. They have ban lists for perks and restrictions on what combinations of perks and items and addons you can run. You also aren't playing against survivor groups that coordinated, nor are your killers that good.
I just think this test is very scuffed and put its thumb on the scale to try to prove slugging is stronger by only counting 4ks as a win. If you never hook survivors, you are going to 4k in almost all games which you win, because of the nature of hatch. Slugging all survivors until everyone is on the floor denies hatch. If you combine the 3k stats with the 4k stats, hooking has an overall higher winrate across all killers.
Just look at the hooking results the Nurse specialist got versus the Trapper specialist. Do you think a 60% winrate on Nurse versus a 90% winrate on Trapper sounds right?
@@BBS-dl1ltand that’s another problem with this experiment. rlly feel like carn should’ve taken the time to recruit killer mains that don’t have a billion hours in the game so we can get a better idea of the average player’s experience with slugging vs hooking
Objective data gathering is always good, and I think it's a valuable experiment, so big props for putting it together! What I fail to understand, as someone who has played competitive or team games for over 20 years, is how a 74% chance of a 4k (88% chance of a "win" if we include 3ks as wins) whilst hooking is deemed enough to switch to another playstyle, as if it isn't remarkable for one side to have such dominance in standard play, particularly when most other competitive games are far more tuned to 50% winrates in a given skill range.
Maybe I'm lucky, a statistical outlier that isn't lining up against bully squads every second match but my experience in other games makes killer in dbd feel like a treat. That's not to say killers are entitled by nature, as far more often these days I'm experiencing survivor DCs after first hook, a bad opening chase, or even more frustratingly intentionally dying on hook to force a 3v1 in a game that - looking at the data - is already an uphill struggle. Surely, the epidemic of rage quitting has to be a priority of bhvr and the community
The actual answer is that BHVR lumps the entire top 5% of the matchmaking pool together. That's like placing plats against challenger players in League or Top 500 in OW.
So in those situations you can see how if someone was actually the equivalent of top 500/challenger, the vast majority of their games are going to be against plats/diamonds just because there are way more of them. Which in turn results in really screwed up win rates because they are just stomping on people who should never have been matched against them in the first place.
I can personally attest for example, that in 700+ games, I only had 4 that were "close" (2 won, 2 lost funny enough). Almost every other match was the system basically just feeding people into a meat grinder because it wasn't at all a balanced match.
@GreysTavern top 5% is madness. Back when I played OW regularly, I was comfortably mid-masters and my younger brother top 500, it was no contest head to head.
Without a solid MMR system, likely making queue times unbearable for high skill players, I don't know how you navigate that issue
@@IVIorat Yup. That's honestly the entire problem. Now imagine how many times your brother would win if he was top 10 and you were plat.
Probably hundreds if not thousands of times in a row.
And that's basically how killers end up going on crazy winstreaks.
That's why I keep trying to tell people that killer going on these long winstreaks isn't because they are suddenly insanely OP, it's just a matchmaking problem.
Now combine that with most of the killers in this experiment being the equivalent of Top 10, let alone Top 500, and you start to see how the data ends up this way.
i play both killer and survivor, i refuse to tunnel, camp or slug at any point, the only time ill slug AT ALL is when i down someone and know someone else is close by trying to get a flashlight save or something. then ill hit them to make em run off before i pick up the other guy but that's it. if im chasing someone and realize i just hooked em i straight up leave em. idc if it means i loose the game, in my mind if i have to tunnel, camp or slug to win a game i already lost. what ppl don't think about is no matter how you play the game it's going to be just as hard. if you slug to win your mmr gets higher so you get put with better survivors, if you don't slug to win your mmr matches that and your game is just as hard. without slugging, camping and tunneling i still get a 4k about 80% of the time also YOUR NOT SUPPOSED TO WIN ALL YOUR GAMES the survivors need to win some too. some times if im doing really well but i can tell the survivors aren't having fun, ILL JUST LET THEM GO. bc they clearly don't wanna be there and if they aren't having fun im not having fun. i also play as huntress bc i feel like they are one of the lesser hatted killers. honestly i feel like a lot of the killers who do camp, tunnel and or slug are selfish and only care about them self. they don't care about the survivors and i think that's whats killing the game is bc of that survivors aren't having fun anymore. killers like that are honestly ugly ppl in my eyes.
Good acting
remember when bhvr tried basekit unbreakable in the ptb? it wasnt implemented because hooks didnt respawn after a death so there were dead zones exploited. now they do i believe basekit unbreakable will be introduced in a future update but i could be completely wrong, thoughts anybody?
thing is they might have to balance anti slug perks like were gonna live forever so they would need to do that along with other things if they were to i troduce that.
It was because the finishing Mori old idea meaning all 4 down at once meant the end
I think basekit UB would kill the game. So many killers that massively benefit from slugging would drop down at least 1 tier and once again this buff would benefit swf's more than solo's.
I haven't played DbD since the DnD chapter released (the game engine update gave my antivirus a heart attack and I haven't reinstalled it since), but it's really interesting to see how the meta continues to change and shift in response to balance patches, perks buffs and nerfs, and reworks.
Here's hoping that the devs realize the "why are they doing it?" behind the "what are they doing?" and give Killers an incentive to hook again instead of just buffing anti-slugging perks and thinking "that'll do".
what a amazingly well done video carni
I went against OsuchinRiberu during one of the Deathslinger slugging matches. The match was on Toba Landing, and we definitely needed more organization to get through it than we did given that we were all presumably solo players. Slugging builds are a nightmare for solo queue. But hey, I got hatch!
If it helps,,, Osu feels bad about slugging.
I hopped in his stream after the game. He was super chill and talked about the experiment he was doing. I forgot to check back on how it went, so this video was super lucky lol
I don’t respect the opinion of game health/balance from anyone who doesn’t play both sides, but I laugh at killer mains the most. Like statistically in this study killers 4k 75% of regular matches and they’re complaining that “the game is too hard for killers”? (Also the data is a 4k when 99% of ppl consider a 3k as a win) It’s literally proven killer sided by a ginormous margin. I win the vast majority of my games as killer and when I lose the occasional game do I cry that my win rate isn’t always 100%? HELL NO! Talk about entitlement Jesus people if you keep playing so smelly you won’t have a player base left to slug 😥
Thankfully Carn and a fair number of other people who contributed to this do play both sides.
As for the win rates, this is mostly made up of people who are legitimately some of the best people playing those killers in the game.
Since the top 5% of the matchmaking pool is all thrown together, if you are sitting at the 99% skill percentile, then you will, on average, lose 1 game for every 100 played.
It's legitimately a problem of shitty matchmaking.
@@FatherAntithetical Matchmaking fs but I think the most glaring issue is killer balance. A lot of killers are just so much worse than the top tier and people expect to win with their fav killers just as much as if they played blight Billy nurse ect and since they can’t resort to degen strats to win. If the cast was brought all up to more like Weskerish level the killers would still enjoy a high win rate without playing like a greeseball. Killers should be winning the majority of games btw no point in playing ‘survivor’ if surviving is too easy, but having that while allowing to let killers play a more relaxed and chase oriented play style will make both sides more happy and that’s where the surv only players who complain fuck the game up for themselves
Personally, I only really have two scenarios where I slug:
1.) I'm trying to deny hatch for the last survivor because the person I just downed is dead on hook.
2.) I'm up against a squad trying to use lame tactics (flashlight spam, hook sabatoge, gen rushing w/ toolkits, ect) where slugging is the only real way to not get steamrolled.
Sometimes I slug outside of those two cases when it's strategically better to do. Although it isn't very often considering the build I use rewards me for hooking.
So basically, if you're thinking of playing this game as survivor: don't. Play killer or go play another game.
The fact that 20% of survivors are salty even when the killer is playing a normal hook game, is absolutely crazy. Every 5th person. Every FIFTH!!!! Mindbogling. At the end of the day this is still just a game. Wondering how much salt these people have during their every day life.
AND that is ONLY the salt. If you add the amount of dc which usually happens due to salt... another 19%. that makes a total of 39% of survivors. Ridiculous. (I'm technically a survivor main btw, but trying to keep a balance. Have not disconnected on purpose a single time in my 1400+ hours)
Survivors when BHVR gives buffs to their perks for no reason ruin the gameplay for killers
Survivors when killers adapt and have literally no choice but to tunnel/slug to get a chance of winning
We should remember to not hate the player... but BHVR.
Btw great video, full of great info! I subbed asap!
yet killers win 75% of the games, so.... skill issue maybe?
@@maxsiqueira666 killers that mained a killer for X amount of time and use their skill to have higher win rate, so yeah you have a skill issue as a survivor. Survivors that have literally been able to do gens in 15 seconds, 3-4 health states that can be abused and get other buffs to no end sounds like bad game design is not those survivors fault though is BHVR
as a survivor main i love killers that slug. every killer that slugs brings us one step closer to basekit unbreakable. please keet it up
All these creators slugging, is gonna lead to bhvr making unbreakable basekit.
Also who cares if slugging is more effective. Effective =/= fun. Just play the game normally, who cares about effectiveness. I guess the art of playing for fun or not super seriously or sweaty is completely lost nowadays
13:39 unwarranted? As you open this video up by saying the meta is shifting towards possibly more slugging and less hooking and you do a whole video about slugging and its effectiveness. Miss me with that.
Not everyone has the same goalposts and mentality when it comes to fun. Some people used to just play demo to get ontop of a locker and jumpscare a survivor. Survivors would love that or hate it (they're not being chased and just sat on gens). Some people enjoy winning and other people just enjoy going for nice hits/clips. Everyone is different. As for the WGLF buff its not only unwarranted but super unhealthy as it has no counter when combined with MFT. It is another classic example of bhvr tinkering with a perk because of its lack of use rate and making it broken.
exactly. people encouraging slugging instead of hooking have no idea what they are doing in the long run. they are literally giving bhvr a reason to add a breakable base kit.
A take from a new player: i started dbd on October 5th i have about 60 hours in game now on a mix of ghostface, the good guy, spirit: then survivor are feng and lara. While at first my gameplay tried to emulate the traditional hook naturally it evolved to a mix of hook and slug. Being new to the game was already a massive setback on top of the disadvantage that comes with killer. I quickly learned that being a traditional killer was personally not an option. With the new mori system i do typically leave one of the last 2 survivors on the ground and go for the hook on the second one. Maybe killers playing more slimy will force survivors to run a uncomfortable/uncommon perks ruining their typical perk synergy.
I still found it telling that generally as killer players, we didn't enjoy slugging. (Alf's a monster what do you want with me. XD)
Like, overall we didn't WANT slugging to be the stronger play style.
Who is we?
@@DrussNBubba :p Most of us.
@@FatherAntithetical no
I think that comes more from the Survivor playbook than anything. We've all been conditioned into trying to play in a way that makes it more fun for the other side when they don't do anything to make it more fun for us.
@@iXSIKOBOIXi Pretty much this. If there's a thing I absolutely hate above all else, it's getting salt in endgame chat (or worse: an angry spiteful hacker on a revenge quest to screw with your system/account/etc), so that conditioned me into playing by the survivor rulebook and loosing most of my matches to 2k's and 1k's.
Ideally, the game should be well-balanced enough *_not_* to produce such an arbitrary set of outside rules established by players and enforced by the threat of toxicity, but DBD being an experimental competitive game with spaghetti code and devs of questionable talent is what allowed the survivor rulebook to blossom in the community.
I'm not even bothered that I have to play by survivor rules--I just wish playing by such rules was the most efficient and beneficial way for killers to play as well. But it sadly isn't.
The most unrealistic part of the video is the request for people to be civil in the comment section. xD
Good noodle BHVR is required because it’s almost Christmas
Survivors are so used to hooking, they fail to understand that slugging is part of the game. It’s not op, it’s just everyone is basically a beginner to this play style, like they just started playing the game
4 survivors on the floor is literally uncounterable without perks, occasional unplanned slugging when there is a good snowball is fine but killers that intentionally bring a slugging build and bleed everyone out is unfair and unfun for everyone involved
@@ymer6587 4 survivors on hook and there is nothing they can do??? Like that doesn’t prove anything also it’s legit better for killers to hook than to slug
@@mattheworzol6405 A. If you’re actually hooking survivors they’ll just die instantly on hook when they reach 3rd stage which before that they can do stuff AKA the objectives B. Statistically no a 4-man slug will basically always end in a 4K
@@ymer6587 your point a: when you down a survivor, the other survivors on the map can come and save you instantly if you recover, and the others can still do objectives, the only difference being that the slugged survivor loses health slower. Point B: 4 survivors on hooks is an Instant win anyways, so your point of “4 downs is a win” is invalid
@@mattheworzol6405 with the slugging build the first statement is ignored since it’s removed from said equation and you can’t just insta hook all 4 survivors? Assuming they’d be on first hook they would all have the chance of self unhooking although low chance, they could also possibly wiggle off
Great video, both from how it was to watch, and how informative it was
Also twas fun to be a part of this and I feel it was more then enough data considering the amount of killers
Great video!! The data and analysis is so cool, I love videos like this 💜 thank you (and the other players!) for your hard work on this!! 🐎
Carne Asada cooked with the video, was a great experience participating in this 👹
What in the hell that Plague gameplay was insane to watch, I can only be more surprised at how good people are at this silly slugging game.
People say survivors have no business complaining about slugging, because they could've used anti slugging perks like unbreakable. That's like saying you have no business complaining about flooding because you could've bought flood insurance. It doesn't change the fact that floods suck. Survivors can hate slugging, and still not use perks for it because most of the time it's not going to get any value. Thankfully, slugging is still uncommon.
Well apparently the Data shows that slugging is actually very valuable as almost across the board the killers won more games when Slugging than when hooking
@@iXSIKOBOIXiI mean yeah obviously holding the survivors hostage whilst they bleed out will result in a 4K, and yes killers that go into a match with the intention of slugging will almost always bleed the survivors out
@@ymer6587 thats not holding the game hostage by definition, maybe you shouldnt make claims on things you dont understand?
@@zedsdemise7586 it kind of is considering survivors literally can’t do anything at all, just how survivors hiding is. Sure it can’t last until the server shuts down but I think you know what I mean by that
What bothers me the most here is that so many players on both sides view everything as an us vs. them and don’t care about how tedious the game is, they only care about winning. In a game that is this imbalanced. It’s ridiculous.
Some people really need to be ignored when it comes to slugging, proxy camping, tunnelling and killer bullying. Fun MUST come first. Design elements where players spent large parts of the game doing nothing must be destroyed.
Everytime I suffer a crushing defeat (3 or 4 escapes) is because there was one or two survs rushing gens like crazy.
And sometimes you have to tunnel someone out as a plan B for winning and it's pretty frustrating that A LOT of survs have their entire build composed of crutches.
Slugging make them lose A LOT of time and counter these crutches. Add Knockout and 3rd Seal to it and BAM! Tried it yesterday and had a smoother experience.
If survs were limited to one crutch per build, gens weren't done so fast and BHVR was more competent at dealing with Turbo Tunneling we wouldn't have to slug and survs wouldn't have a full crutch build.
It’s crazy how people complain about everything.
I’ve been playing this game since 2019 and the only thing I’ve really complained about was the matchmaking whenever it was really bad. I enjoy the game and I don’t care about how other people play. People should be able to play however they want. I understand it’s annoying but it isn’t as serious as people say.
This. Unfortunate people go uncivilized into “my way or the highway”
Good stuff Carnibabe,
Love the music, specially daisys circuit. One of my favorite mario kart songs
i´ll be honest here. slugging is the most annoying style to kill you lay there 4 minutes and do abolutly nothing if the killer is strong. i hate it and its no fun. will never understsnad why you wouild do this. its a game that you want to win, sure. but is it worth to make many survs quit the game? because if i would be slugged and bleed out 4 times in a row i would just quit for the day. just no fun
Peak video and great statistics! Very good stuff!
This is weird to suggest slugging is better and then whine when the other side doesnt want to play anymore. Dont bitch about going next if you want to create scenarios that discourage people from wanting to play anymore. Making it unfun on purpose because you want a cheap grey area of the objective is slowly killing the game. Both sides need eachother.
The plethora of second chance perks on the survivor side makes the game very unfun, but killers rarely DC. Survivors just need to get over their entitled selves and play the game. If you really struggle against slugging where you literally have 4 whole minute to get the person up again, you're just bad at the game. Improve and stop complaining.
Honestly, considering the devs will always change the game to bring the percentage of victory/loss of killers where they think is right, is it even worth trying to find a playstyle more advantageous to the killers than the game already is?
Aside rare opportunistic slugging or intentional slugging because of certain builds, I kinda hope this video will have the same effect of those that provoked the anti camping feature, especially considering how easy is to get 4kills already, even without add-ons or against good survivors, reaching way more than 70% of our games.
To be honest, i rather play the game as it is intended by the devs and avoid other killer nerfs, than to play a game that is unfun for the other 4 people on the ground, causing DC that ruin the experience of the game or having to extend even more the matchup time to find other survivors to play against.
At the end of the day, there are four other people behind those survivors, people that want to play too and i know that always winning isn't the intended experience for killers.
So just enjoy playing the damn game, ignore the toxicity of teabagging survivors caused by other toxic killers, always give hatch because you are morally superior, and always equip Lightborne for the satisfaction of saying "No" to flashlight teams.