An Honest Conversation About The 2024 CrossFit Games // The Rich Froning Podcast 039
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
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On one of your last points: I'm a full time FF / Paramedic who applied to be on medical team every year the games were in Madison. I was never picked. At the games I asked someone on the medical staff about their credentials. They told me they have an EMT Basic license but was not actually working in the position currently. He also informed me that volunteering at the games is basically a popularity contest. You have to know someone to get a spot. Turning down active paramedics for inactive EMTs because of friendships seems inappropriate. Makes me wonder the qualifications of the lifeguards and medical staff that were in Texas. 3rd party definitely seems best.
Which probably has nothing to do with Dave.
@@amy5127 completely agree. There is a head of volunteers. It isn’t him.
That is crazy, except when you look at the inaction of the paddle boarders. Shameful, and hard to watch for anyone with open swimming rescue experience.
100% , My issue was never about if the games should continue or not, but just because I know how it works to be selected, and its never the best one who is selected, but the cheaper and the one with more contacts
@@RogueCylon that is the most disturbing aspect of it all. From watching the video, it appeared two people on paddleboards were very close to him. They must have heard or seen something to think "Huh, that doesn't seem right...let me keep an eye on this guy, and if he goes under, I will take the necessary action"...it looked like (just judging from the video) that Lazar was doing something that didn't look like normal swimming....are they not certified lifeguards or rescue professionals to know the signs of a person having trouble in the water? Just a very odd response.
Just come out and say the water rescue team FAILED!!!!! you are grown men!!!!!! Nobody is arguing for softer, easier events. The man drowned in broad daylight in front of 2 adult life gaurds!!!! Talking about the events, water temp, heat, and everything else is ridiculous!!!. The issue is the man needed help and didn't get it!!!!
Right! and its 101 that you don't do a swim after a run, and three freckin hours to get search and rescue there. Its disgusting.
@@nicci337I take it you missed the part were they say Run swim Run events happen all over the world there’s one local to me 2 times a year 😂
@nicci337 The order of the events is beside the point. Pick a sport, and they are all dangerous to a certain degree. Focusing on that is unreal. The real issue is whatever the risk or dangers, when ppl need help and the people assigned to help people in need of help, don't help that's unacceptable. It would have been better for them to have tired to rescue him and fail then to just stand there and do nothing.
@@Cyclops1983 WTF why would you have a failed rescue attempt in a lake with thousands of people watching? It should have been impossible for anybody to go under and not be pulled out immediately. And NO triathlons do not put swimming in the middle for a reason. People much smarter than any of us are saying. He was set up to die its that simple.
@@nicci337 They dont put swimming in the middle because it would be a logistical nightmare more than it already is. Its not because its any more or less safe after doing another event. This point performative drama, let it go.
I'm incredibly disappointed by this interview.
Trying to justify Lazar's death because people have died in Triathlons historically, is just morally wrong.
Over 4 million people compete in Triathlon every year in the US alone. In the CrossFit Games there's a few hundred.
Make the math on what is statistically most dangerous.
Thanks for this conversation. I'm at 23:48 - I think Rich is too far into this situation to see it objectively. There is negligence in safety. There is a history of negligence. The swim has protocols for how to perform it as safely possible - crossfit did not do that and the games should have been stopped immediately to review all protocols. Someone died.
Swim then Run. Just like triathlons. Also not a good Podcast with all the talking over each other .
Its pretty freckin basic that nobody should drown at an event like this because lifeguards should be there to pull them out the minute they go under. He didn't just die, he died knowing that the people who were supposed to save him watched it and knew what was going to happen next. I can't imagine how that must have felt.
He sank to the bottle of the lake without anyone to save him...this is not a risk that any athlete takes to compete professionally. I appreciate the conversation but completely disagree with the Blase fair attitude. Rory is right.
Lazar was horribly failed. Safety protocols were abysmal. Rich even if it was a cardiac arrest, he did not get the opportunity for defibrillation
It definitely wasn’t cardiac arrest. Luka has posted on a few instagram posts that Lazar did not have an episode. As you stated they simply failed him. He could have and should have been saved. That’s the only conversation that matters.
@@kdhermes6020 I can’t disagree
@@kdhermes6020how does he know ? The postmortem isn’t back yet. I saw his comment to Sevan that the episode in Dubai last year wasn’t a cardiac event at the top of the tower when he collapsed
@@kdhermes6020have you seen the autopsy report? Otherwise you don’t know that.
@@kdhermes6020his brother is reacting in an emotional state at this point. Completely appropriate. What isn’t appropriate is for you to not understand that and to realize the full report isn’t back and to speak about something you know nothing about.
There was NO response!! Nobody is talking to the point here.
Come on guys...we basically watched him go under on live stream near the end as swimmers kept going and safety staff was useless.
If water rescue rescued Lazar then there would be very few voices talking about safety. We have to separate the inherent risk of something like an open water swim and warm weather vs the response to an emergency. Imagine 2015 Murph and an athlete collapses due to heat and no medical ever showed up and we just watched the person lay there until they die. The real issue was the response. Proposing solutions to reduce risk IMO isn’t the best use of time. Finding out why a rescue didn’t happen and then proposing solutions would help.
Very well put
yup agreed!
" We have to separate the inherent risk of something going wrong vs the response to an emergency." 👏
The event was essentially the same as that Murph event...except the athletes experiencing heat distress were swimming when it happened.
@@ptf55as someone who worked/witnessed both... the two are not the same. The OP post is very well articulated.
you guys completely missed the mark w this one. nobody is arguing the risk that the athletes take on at the games, what people are upset about is the basic medical attention that Lazar should have received and never did. They waited until everyone was done with the event to start looking for him, that’s not okay. Not that hard to see that in this case, CF was negligent. That doesn’t mean Dave doesn’t care or that medical attention hasn’t been given in other situations but that also doesn’t matter. In this case, they failed Lazar and it cost him his life, that’s what yall should’ve talked about.
They didn’t know he was gone until after the event. They called his name by accident when his brother finished so people assumed he had finished, but then was reported missing
I'm not using this as an excuse. But this is not uncommon in triathlons and iron mans. Mistakes happen in any sport. This is just the first time and hopefully the last for it to happen to CrossFit.
This seems like a silly discussion....
If you go blackout hard on a run (like Kara in Murph), you fall/faint. Unlikely to be deadly.
If you go blackout hard on a swim, you drown. There is no natural safety net, hence why open water swimmers have buoys. Or why life guards need to be everywhere.
The organizers of a competition should know. They can't prevent every scenario but excluding underlying / pre-existing conditions, they should remove such obvious and deadly risks. Like putting crash pads under athletes climbing to 4x their height. It should be obvious that in a fail scenario, the athlete will fall. Well, in swimming, a fail scenario is sinking and death.
This is on the organization
To me, as a medical professional, I support athletes taking the risk, but where I stand is the emergency response was not there and it is crushing to know especially when someone reportedly dove into the water which brought attention to the situation. We know Athletes in competitions take risks, but organizers need to invest in their safety resources to mitigate the risks. Off subject, but my heart goes out to who ever dove in the water, and I hope they are leaning into their community right now.
This is 100% hindsight, but the issue for me is not the danger of the event, it is the failure of the response. Not enough volunteers in the water, not enough focus on the competitors still in the water, not enough urgency to the response. No one can know if that could have saved Lazar Dukic that day. I don't want to blame the volunteers who were there, I want to blame poor planning and complacency. It hadn't happened before, and everyone (including me) just assumed nothing would happen. We should have done better. The company will be responsible for that.
Personally, I think you guys should have a discussion with Brent and Pat and ask their reasoning behind why they did what they did instead of speculating and putting out false narratives. We have enough of that going on in the community already.
Fair question, how come PFAA have not gone on any podcasts thus far (at the time of this comment) to cover why/what about their "demands" letter? Why not release that live on a podcast to take questions to minimize confusion/frustration etc? Goes both ways, no?
@@CryptoJay maybe no one has asked them and maybe they don't feel the need to explain themselves because really all they are concerned about are the athletes. And if the athletes agree then no one else matters... BUT we have podcasts like these trying to spin their own narratives which I really don't think they should be doing.
@@nd4610 Spinning narratives, like that weak attempt you just responded with? No thanks
@@CryptoJay I don't know who you are, thanks anyway though. Byeeee ;)
There were two people on paddle boards 20 feet from a guy who was clearly struggling. Not complicated....complete negligence. The "sports have inherent risk" argument doesn't really apply here.
Exactly!
Exactly! People trying to complicate it are trying to find a reason to exonerate CrossFit. There’s no excuse. Safety failure.
Nobody would expect to go into that water knowing they might die. Nobody would make that choice.
You want athletes to go hard like Lazar did and that's why a professional sport would have an organization to have the athletes' backs whenit comes to safety. So they dont have to think about it. That is that the PFAA is trying to do. Not that there are immediate safety issues, but that they can make sure the athletes and crossfit are covered. I dont understand the aversion to the PFAA and what they stand for. Annie is a member and she has been doing crossfit as long as Rich so obviously she is seeing things that need to be fixed, that maybe he doesn't...
How many years have the crossfit games been held where athletes Recieved appropriate, and timely medical attention or never needed it at all? Seems to me the self described PFAA is jumping at the first opportunity to boost their control
@@shauncasavant8444 and this is a bad thing because.....
Rich is leaving it to Jesus.
Can Angelo stop interrupting?
No he can’t
What I think that was said that they kind of glossed over was that if anything happened they should be SAVED. Safety can only be a preventative, but everyone should have a chance to be saved and that’s what didnt happen with Lazar. He didn’t have a chance to be SAVED.
Level of condescension here = 10/10
Agree with the criticism in this comment section - this discussion was very much hampered by Rich and Angelo’s egos (which is also why they talk so much and talk over each other, but I digress). There’s one point I haven’t seen mentioned yet, and it’s about professionalization. Rich says that they brought in Silicon Valley people and that hasn’t gone well… but that isn’t professionalization. If they wanted to be professionalized, they’d model themselves after other sports governance organizations (many of which are for profit) and there are plenty to look to. It also means that CrossFit should bring in leadership who have experience in professional sports and they should have a board to ensure accountability for the leadership team. If CrossFit wants to be a serious sport, there are serious standards that should be followed, and it being a “young” sport is no excuse. There is no lack of money in the organization or expertise out there for them to get involved. The company just doesn’t have enough humility to seek out other perspectives, and now they have blood on their hands.
You guys being “firefighters” doesn’t have much bearing on this conversation. Yes, you included it to feed your egos.
Thanks for noticing that, ego fed.
False it has a huge difference in how they/we see a death. None of us want to see someone die but we can watch someone die make jokes 2mins later and worrying about where lunch is and forget what we just witnessed. It makes a difference in how they feel and see as death is a normal part of life the public is hidden from
I used to really like Rich Froning... not anymore I thought he was smarter than some of the stuff he said here. Very obvious negligence ? Not enough life guards or event staff watching to ensure no one drowns
Rory is the only one making any sense. The only able to articulate reason. This podcast was tough to listen to and slightly infuriating.
Hey guys, I’m hoping not to come across as a Negative Nancy here; hopefully this is perceived as constructive feedback: this is kinda tough to listen to on account of how much talking over or interrupting each other is happening. Not sure what the fix is other than maybe everyone take a breath? It’s really choppy and distracting.
People interrupt each other when they think what they are saying is more important than what the other person is saying.
Sorry but this chat is shockingly narrow minded and a tad narcissistic on two counts 🤦♀️
Thank goodness for the one rational voice in there, continually bringing it back.
You’re welcome, somebody had to be a voice of reason.
@@richfroning5156not you.
@@richfroning5156 read the room man....
Crossfit has been playing roulette with their athletes health and wellbeing for decades now. This was bound to happen.
Decades?
Yes, you can die on a 5k. You can die while sleeping, too. Admitting that there is a level of danger with any physical activity is not handing over any and all right to expect a certain amount of common sense logistical planning. The question Crossfit HQ must answer is did they do everything they could to make the events as safe as possible, with an understanding that there is always some level of danger. Did they do their due diligence? Frankly, from what I've heard about swimming events, and what safety protocols were in place, there were important steps that were skipped over. But, we shall see.
Near the end there was a lot of discussion on the opinions of insiders and outsides, people that know and people that don't know, specialists and non-specialists. Okay. Well, the PFAA is made up of people I think you would consider to be insiders. The PFAA is not made up of faceless, nameless commenters on social media. That they think getting Castro out is a net positive says something. And, kindly, I reject Rory's position, if I understood it correctly, that Castro being one of the last remnants of the original Crossfit Games is something that needs to be held onto. Nostalgia is not a strategy for moving forward and getting better.
The amount of 'likes' in this video is insane.
Team Rich going unashamedly FULL Team CF on this one. Heads up lads - even the most junior of safety officers doing a basic risk assessment would have been able to tell you that it was both REASONABLE and FORESEEABLE that an athlete may fall off a rope- climb and therefore crash mats below the ropes should have been actioned (it did NOT and should NOT have required an athlete to injure themselves to highlight this). Speaks to an enduring and on-going poor safety culture. I suspect Team Rich will be on the wrong side of history on this one...
Being a Marine Corps veteran, Coach, CrossFitter and a Former CrossFit owner I fall back on what I was taught in the military, Operational Risk Management (ORM).
Assess the risks associated with whatever operation human beings are involved in.
And put as many safety measures in place to minimize the risk in that operation. Looking at the swimming event/operation from an outside perspective it doesn’t look like all possible safety measures were put in place.
The drowning incident was preventable.
Rich stop interrupting them 😢
Let’s talk about Angelo and team completely choking at the games. What a poor showing that was
Wasn't expecting Rich to come out the gate with a victimization stance by saying "the PFAA forced our hand" to talk about this. Either you want to talk about it or you don't, why frame it as someone else forcing your hand
And then saying that "in the back of your mind you expect you could die". Um, NO TF YOU DO NOT.
For different perspectives please watch TTT's breakdown of the weekend as sadly & I understand why there are just some things that were skated through that should've been highlighted a lot more
Yeah TTT did an awesome job.
TTT?
@@paulasacilottovalentemorei454 Training Think Tank
@@paulasacilottovalentemorei454 Training Think Tank
Gentlemen, I appreciate your openness and candor.
I recommend you do not talk over each other.
I'm a retired US Army officer and would like the CrossFit Games to publish their Risk Management checklist and safety protocols for this event.
Also, there's no way to completely eliminate risk in an event. But, there are ways to reduce risk. The swim, the riskiest event, should always be conducted first when participants are the strongest. Period. Further, heats of 10 vs. mass starts can reduce injuries during mass starts.
Have a good day.
Disagree. Maybe the general public doing that event the swim should be first. Games athletes - makes no difference the sequence.
Yes, we are not arguing whether there is risk involved? I do believe Rich is largely missing the point here of why people are so upset. It's not that he died, it's HOW he died. C'mon Rich, Nobody is arguing that playing a sport isn't a risk. If Lazar was rescued out of the water and they performed cpr and got a medic there ( a medic should have already been on standby ) and he still ended up dying, THEN this would be a whole different ballgame. Continuing the games in his honor would have made sense and actually been an honorable thing to do. I am actually surprised the police allowed them to continue after viewing the footage. If Rich's wife had drowned in this same exact manner, he would be viewing this whole situation with a different eye ( I know she's not an athlete. But if she was and that was her in the water, you would be speaking differently about this)
They CLEARLY stated several times in this video that they were not going to talk how he died and the safety protocols at the event in THIS video. They are going to wait until the investigation is concluded and discuss in another video. Rich did NOT miss the point as you claim. You are clearly the one who missed the point in regard to this video not him.
@@wolfhunter6711 Your comment makes me think you didn’t even watch the whole video? I’m CLEARLY referencing things he said in regards to inherent risk in sports.. and why that is NOT what people are upset about.
It is just completely inexcuseable to have this few redundancies in an event where if something goes wrong it's a matter of responding in seconds or the athlete is gone. Lazar should have been thrown a buoy, or given physical floating assistance by lifeguards, or at the very fucking least pulled out quick enough for him to receive CPR. None of this happened, he was failed at every stage to the point where once it went wrong he got no support, no help, no second chance. That is unforgiveable by crossfit.
Can someone tell mustache to stop interrupting everyone…
You must be new here lol
I 100% agree… Mr. mustache needs to shut up.
Angelo has to stop cutting people off while speaking. Keeps everyone from finishing their thoughts, interrupts the flow of the conversation
I think all of them could express their thoughts more clearly if everyone took turns speaking. It would create a better overall conversation
Rich does it too, but it’s his podcast. It comes from the right place because they are engaged in the conversation, just some constructive feedback
Angelo, you were perfect
@@TheSevanPodcastnahh he wasn’t vato
Angelo, you were awesome. Keep doing what you’re doing.
After 25 yrs in the fire service and now retired. We do process things way different than normal people. People think we are cold and uncaring. We have to process death differently because we have a whole shift to run more calls and those folks deserve our very best when we take care of their love ones.
This was never more evident to me as retired military than out on Event 1 working. The staff & volunteers really did express the vast difference between what I referred to as "being callused" to death and those who experienced both the shock from being a part of the tragedy unexpectedly, and those who experienced witnessed a death for the first time.
This is something so many people don't understand and need to understand.
ED nurse here who have worked at military hospital getting battle casualties, I am on this level as well. People who have not worked on this field won’t just understand that feeling.
Imagine struggling for five minutes and never getting ANY help.
Jesus. When you put it like that. Thinking “it’s ok, there’s lifeguards everywhere”….. anyway you slice it, this is just terrible
And for Lazar's family to know that a spectator, who attempted to save him, was turned away...
I think you guys missed the point of the PFAA's call for Dave Castro to be removed from the Sport Team. The point isn't to say Castro is (or isn't) responsible for Lazar's death. The point is that many athletes' trust in Dave has been severely compromised by how he handled safety and preparation conversations with the PFAA prior to Lazar's death. Now that Lazar died in the aftermath of Dave allegedly not taking the PFAA's requests for information seriously, allegations that Fikowski and Vellner have recently explained in substantial detail, the PFAA feels they need a new figure without that baggage to correspond with in order to regain trust in CrossFit HQ and the safety of the games.
So it’s about feelings not facts?
@@JBoudreaux0712 Both matter. Trust is critical for any business/professional relationship. It is also critical for athletes' confidence in the overall brand. Facts are important to establish what happened (for example, how Dave responded to previous safety related inquiries, the safety measures HQ put in place for each event, whether lifeguards were properly trained, etc.). They're not mutually exclusive like you seem to be suggesting.
Who’s your source on this info? Or are you just spewing here?
@@angelodicicco1329 No, I'm not "just spewing." I tried to post a link earlier to a Men's Health article that covered Fikowski's Instagram posts that detailed the PFAA's interactions with CrossFit HQ regarding safety concerns leading up to the 2024 games. Idk if links are automatically removed to avoid spam or something, but you can Google that source and find it. Also, there's a TH-cam short you can find from Buttery Bros of Vellner describing how he and the PFAA raised safety concerns to HQ for many years only to be "patted on the head" and made out to be "hysterical." I didn't copy/paste that here to avoid having the comment removed like the last one. But this is all out there and easily discoverable.
@@angelodicicco1329 Brent posted email exchanges over last few years where they reached out to HQ about specific concerns, safety questions, events, etc. and all of them were ignored or rejected essentially so I understand their lack of trust with the current structure. While I don't doubt Castro cares about the Games, was athlete safety the first priority? I think what's difficult for those of us who watched the live feed. We saw him struggle with someone who's supposed to be a certified/trained lifeguard on a paddle boat less than 20 feet away not notice. Witnesses said they were screaming. Spectators jumped in the water but said they were removed even though they told staff they were trying to help an athlete. I understand there is always a risk and even if all the safety protocols were in place, what I can't wrap my head around is why he wasn't SAVED? Regardless of what happened in the hours and days after the horrific, heartbreaking incident. What wasn't done in the immediate minutes after people were calling for help is what I've struggled with. He could have been saved. They could have pulled him out of the water and done everything possible to save him but they didn't. No one searched the water for over an hour because the event had to conclude apparently and they simply thought his chip wasn't working. But WHY after numerous people are screaming for help - why wasn't anything done? Even if his chip was malfunctioning and he was simply somewhere else, why wouldn't trained safety personnel still jump into action in case someone was in distress? I'm not trying to fight or argue this - but the reality is, he could have been saved. Or there should have been some kind of attempt to save him and there wasn't.
Anything can happen but to die while swimming when there are so called lifeguards? That’s bs
You do realize that many people die every year swimming when there are lifeguards right? Think public swimming pools or water parks. It may not be right but it happens.
The problem is not whether the event was safe or not. The problem is not that an athlete died in the event. The problem is the response time and as first responders you should recognize that as the PROBLEM. All the other conversations are nonsense.
The problem is also the visible cuts in safety. You don’t need an investigation to see the negligence. Visible cuts in broadcast professionalism in event 1. A couple of long shot drones does not give additional safety staff ( probably not even there) access to assess the situation. But commentators commenting on the “amusing” situation of Lazar taking his cap off, changing strokes from free to back to breast, was troubling.
@@RogueCylon Also, commentators say Lazar’s chip is malfunctioning, and we will have to see where he placed because we haven’t seen him cross, WTF…should have been all over that. No investigation is necessary. Problem that needs to never happen is respond.
@@evelynrobertson9412 there was no control of the race. They mentioned both run and swim being open areas to public. So commentated that some swimmers off course were probably public. Adler was included there.
@@RogueCylon you don’t make any sense. Try again using your words.
@@evelynrobertson9412 I’m saying that from what the commentators of Event 1 said, the run and swim area was still open to the public. There were other folks on the paths, and in the lake.
I really enjoy the podcast, the one thing I wish is y'all wouldn't keep talking over each other so much especially over Rory!
Rich is terrible at this. Never lets anyone finish their statement
@@jaybodine6580 Maybe talking over people was the WOD. In that case, Rich dominated Rory.
Agreed. Worse podcast ever
Hard to take a guy seriously when he’s wearing a shirt with captain bone spurs plastered all over it
Thank you for saying this! I thought I was the only one who felt this way
100%. I stopped listening the moment I saw that.
@@TomRobbinsAVI8Rso open minded of you! 😂
Bone spurs are nothing to joke about, millions of people suffer every year!
Bone spurs?
Horrible take. Trash.
There's necessary (inherit) risk and then theres unnecessary risk.
There were* A LOT of unnecessary risks taken that day and it led to a competitor dying.
Doesn't matter how you've learned to process death or how many games you participated in. A supposed friend of yours died due to gross negligence and you guys really came in here in the softest way possible.
I wish Scott and Rory would've been able to get a word in.
I guess when you owe everything you have to CrossFit, you go full hack for them.
So many of us love to go to the edge. It’s horrible that we missed it and he wasn’t safe. Keep a close eye on your people always. Especially in the water. 🔱Thanks dudes.
THERE WEREN’T ENOUGH BOARDS IN THE WATER. Period. You don’t need an investigator to tell you that.
How many is the best number? Open water is always a risk. I’ve done sprint triathlons with much weaker swimmers… anything can happen once that swimmer goes under.
@@tcklme712there are plenty of organizations that provide an industry standard for things like this, and we were no where close on site. That's all I'll say.
Wouldn’t necessary think of numbers, there were two paddle boarders 10 feet away in both sides, he was 10 feet away from the finish line. He didn’t go down in a place where no one was there. They failed to respond in time. Were they prepared to do so? We don’t know yet. As a team manager, I can teach and train my team in the best way I can, if then they do their job properly or not is up to them. This could be the same case. We don’t know till the investigation is over. (Sorry for any grammar mistakes, English is not my forte)
@@tcklme712I’ve heard 1 per 5 athletes.
I’m curious what paddle boarders would be capable of. Zero equipment, and likely to drown themselves while “rescuing”. Where were the paramedics with equipment following. Where were the fire department. They said they weren’t notified of the event. Where were the divers? The paddle boarders showed one attribute - asleep at the wheel.
I don’t like how happily you are talking about Lazar and your relationship with him, like he isn’t dead. Feels very disrespectful imo
Understand your desire to keep going. But would you want it to keep going if the organization was grossly negligent? That is the situation here.
FYI - Triathlons / Ironman have stopped the mass start swims several years back. They now do rolling starts to eliminate the swimmers who develop LVH. The difference is, the triathletes are saved by the safety vessels and then sadly pass. They aren’t left to drown. LVH happens often with swimmers in open water swims.
Ironman’s have also been around 30+ years and had 100+ athletes still die.
LVH as in left ventricular hypertrophy?
That takes years to develop.
This event wasn’t a mass start, it was after the run allowing for a rolling start depending on when people finished the run portion. Since 1986, there have been 171 deaths in Ironman. 122 during swim (71.3%), mostly drowning.
@@Mfos2435Open waters swims can be so dangerous for some individuals. I have done several full distance Ironmans and dozens of other triathlons and a few times I have raced some passed during the swim (NYC Ironman in 2012 was one) So, so sad. Ironman has made some changes like eliminating the mass start but it still happens. Mostly in the beginning of the race - the cold water and stress and elevated heart rate can bring on underlying issues.
@@mikasd9Yes. When someone has that underlying it can accelerate with the stress of open water swimming. I am not saying that is what happened at the games. But that is what often happens in triathlon.
It’s tough to see all this. Loving the games as a fan for years. I appreciate the way Rich and Angelo spoke about their being wired differently. Having a career in medical/mental health I’ve witnessed a lot of death myself. That said this was different in the past week I’ve come to realize the context matters a lot. This one is harder because many of us inadvertently witnessed his drowning without even realizing it. In an entertainment environment setting rather than in the work context had my/our guard down.
I can only say - hold your loved ones. Appreciate the fragility of life. Be slower on angry judgement or lashing out. There are a lot of people closer to this that are hurting and whether you’re commenting to Honor Lazar or to speak out to “hold someone accountable” it can have impacts in way you may not intend.
I thing the guys addressed this really well. Blessings.
Talking alot without saying anything
Correct!
100%
YES!!!!! I’m 20 minutes in and haven’t heard a coherent thought.
Gross negligence. Games should have stopped right there. Real CEO would retire the director of the games on the spot. Nothing personal. Just reality. Nothing to do with risk! You are NOT suppose to drown on live stream with supposed life safers not even able to notice a drowning man right in front of them.
Is that based on your extensive experience of being a CEO? Just curious
If there is gross negligence it lands on the CEOs door. He should be the 1st to go and a new CEO can clean house.
Your opinion.
I am the head of an emergency room that deals with mass public events on a regular. My comment was made as an objective outsider opinion not biased or influenced by the feeling of “community”. When people start dying at these poorly organized events general public gets involved.
@@meyercoleman6420 I’m not saying you shouldn’t comment. But saying what a real CEO would do is your opinion and it’s not based on any facts, just your emotion and feelings about the situation. Until more is known, that is pretty much all anyone is doing.
Rory - you seem like an intelligent, caring person in all that I’ve seen you in. Although I’m sure we don’t agree on some beliefs, you at least have the courtesy of knowing what may be offensive to others.
Within 15 seconds of this starting, Rich made an anti-trans remark. And the other guy REALLY chose THAT SHIRT on a filmed TH-cam video about Lazar? Made it about himself and his politics.
I hope you choose to move on from these guys and advance your career elsewhere.
Seriously.
I really appreciate Rich's and Angelo's perspective, because it's truly highlighting a differentiator in the processing of the aftermath. I have a friend who served in Iraq, and we had a discussion about why we both reacted to a certain situation in wildly different manners. And he told me exactly what you guys said - when you see death so frequently, it changes your perspective drastically. I think you might be receiving unwarranted criticisms for not reacting the way others are who've not had your experiences. I've thankfully not been exposed to it hardly at all, but your perspective has allowed me to sympathize a bit more with those who have; and more importantly, be less judgmental to their reactions to tragedy.
Reactions, I agree. Everyone processes differently. But this goes beyond their reactions. Their actual logic about what constitutes acceptable risk and a reasonable standard of care towards athletes is poor. Applying their same logic to any sport---Damar Hamlin would have died on the field in the NFL because all of the football players know the risk when they step on the field. It's nutty. It's a "Jesus take the wheel" strategy of running things. I'm glad most other sports have their sh*t together and are run by professionals that understand we're playing a game, it ain't the military.
13:43 yeah but that’s different Rich. Accidents can happen. But when they do happen how do the organizers respond? Are they fully equipped to do so? To the volunteers have the credentials to properly handle it? Unfortunately they botched it.
It takes a lot to even talk about this topic given the way people tend to dissect thoughts/comments today. Thanks for approaching this respectfully and honestly.
Okay, talking as professinal, the thing about the Crossfit Games is how little they invest on safety and everything else, th judges are not good enough because they pay the minimum amount, so just the bad judges end it up accepting the offer, and on the safety side is the same. I was an open water swimmer and I think the least thing to do for a event like that is to hire ppl who are used to do this, even for me as a specialist on the water I cant count how many times I was desperate, so to do those type of very specific things that already exists, they should follow the same standards; you cant compare to a rope climb because its not a sport with rules to follow, its just one more exercise, so for me it comes out just the lack of attention and investments to ppl who are used to new things. even Rich Froning struglled on the swin back in the days and I remember him holding on the border of a pool to not drown. For me its just a matter of how much is gonna cost to have someone who is sure of this specific event and if the Crossfit is willing to spend the money. So I gonna disagree in a sense that from experience in so many different areas of the competition, the money spent on the crew is always the bare minimum, and not whats necessary
Not having a dive team on site was negligent
Correct me if I'm wrong. CrossFit is about empowering people into a stronger version of themselves. Mentally, Emotionally and Physically. SO, how does it help the community when anyone tell us, that "you don't ____ know". Did you sign paperwork in 1987 to remove life support from a family member? Ever sit with a conscious and physically broken climber while it took EMT's about an hour to hike to our aid? Ever search for two missing service members while sitting in the front of a boat until you found one of them floating dead in the water? Keep telling us we don't know. That's what my untreated father would say. "You don't know." I know all I need to know because I saw the video where Lazar didn't get the help he needed. If you're tired of reading my\our angry comments don't read them. I'll likely be processing this for several more months. I thought I had made some progress and would be fine listening. But I just can't tolerate anyone telling me or us. We don't know. Don't take our voice away. Let us process too...
Oh my god… these guys can’t express an opinion. Come on guys talk to the point
Someone lost his life doing what his love is because of lack of security measures in an event. The HQ failed tremendously period. Everyone can try sugarcoat it however they want but fact is, if there has been a prepared rescue team on boats as it should be in water events following the athletes that would not have happened. Someone did not just die, there was absolutely no plan to act in a moment like that. Watching the event live and see him struggle from my coach and no one acting its a lack of responsibility and respect to all athletes. Everyone here is making it more abou them then about what really happened.
Saying that u don't have an opinion because u don't know enough is the lamest thing. Be a man and say I HAVE AN OPINION BUT I CHOOSE TO BE RESPONSIBLE AND NOT SHARE IT UNTIL I HAVE ALL THE FACTS. Why are men so scared to tell the truth. Nobody faults you for having an opinion. We are all human and have one. Just be respectful and responsible.
With Dave, you can like someone and still be able to admit when they've failed at their job. When they're no longer an effective leader because the trust is gone. None of that means Dave doesn't care. I'm sure he DEEPLY cares about the games and did not want anyone to die. But that also doesn't mean that what the PFAA said isn't true--that arrogance and disregard for athlete safety was a pattern and practice at HQ and with Dave. Doesn't mean he's a bad guy, just means he's not the right person to be running the Games.
From my perspective, what it looks like when you say we need to wait for the investigation is just the cop out of not wanting to have to speak out against an organization that has paid you well for many years, with people you may be friends with getting publicly embarrassed. We all saw this live on TV. There's obvious safety precautions that that didn't happen. Obvious leadership/organizational issues. Obvious borderline/unsafe conditions for a swim by any objective measure. Obvious the athlete showed signs of struggle for a while and no one came to rescue him except a spectator who was turned back. You don't need an investigation to tell you that. You should have the guts to speak out that HQ should have done a better job with this. AND THEN you can say you'll wait for the investigation to comment further. But saying nothing is hiding imo.
This is an incredibly disappointing take and a poorly executed “response” video. As powerful voices in the CrossFit community, I expected better. Not being prepared for this conversation with the correct acronym or the posted demands is embarrassing, Angelo’s outfit choice muddying the conversation, and the complete lack of podcasting professionalism (constant interrupting and not finishing thoughts) made this impossible to finish. Consider adding some PR professionals to the team that don’t live inside of this echo chamber.
We lack professionalism in every area of our lives
I can guarantee we will not be adding PR professionals but thanks for your condescending critique and we won’t take it into consideration.
Rich I love you
@@richfroning5156Send ittttt!!
Castro is a liability to CF
Why isn't anyone asking why the safety people out on the water didn't act faster? Crossfit had safety boats and lifeguards out there. Seems to me, they should have saved him? Who were those people on paddle boards just feet from him? Why didn't they see him??? Or save him?
That is what the investigation is about. It is one of the numerous questions that have to be answered. Until the full investigation is done. There will only be speculation.
@user-gm8us6fx6d Right, but all the speculation seems to be centered around accusing Castro and/or Crossfit. I feel like the speculation and conversation should be on why the safety protocols in place failed.
There is a post up (from Brent) showcasing the questions the PFAA directed at CrossFit about the heat. So I think it's fair to say that they didn't just care about movement standards. And if I'm not wrong the reason they do the swim first in a triathlon is to avoid checking two point of entry/exit into and out of the water simultaniously, because that is where problems accure.
i don't understand. The ironman happens in Hawaii every year. Since when is it reasonable to say that you can't exercise in 80 degree weather? The PFAA asked about the heat... and the organizers showed they were also concerned about the hear by the time of the event being at the coolest part of the day - before the sun rose. There is no such thing as a risk free activity. Was it unreasonable risky? Let's see what the investigation says... but from my perspective no. And I would assume that Brent Fikowski agreed since he participated and i didn't see him on the TV jumping up and down complaining! i mean. come on. If it was such a risky scenario, why didn't he do his job as the "representative of the athletes" and complain?
@@toddbutler3813 The post clearly shows they were "complaining" from the beginning. And the problem here is the temperature of the water, because the body is surrounded by it, it can't cool itself. No one asked about a risk free event! But if someone is drowning they should at least expect help, even if they don't make it. And yes I think it's reasonable to be loud when your friend just died.
Listening to Kyle Rolfe a police officer and Emily Rolfe’s husband speaks much the same how you react to trauma and grief.
"sports are dangerous" is not an excuse, especially when open water swimming exists as a sport unto its own and most of their fatal incidents are rescued and administered first aid. The novel of CrossFit no longer plays when it tests other sporting events... That have federations that sanction events with more rigorous safety protocols. Angelo and Rich make it clear they flat out don't know what they're talking about and in this case, that rhetoric is a danger to the athletes. A waste of 85 mins of breathable air.
Watch the most recent Justin medeiros video on his experience at the games. Shines more light on the situation
Has anyone taken responsibility for this death from CrossFit HQ? Any accountability at all?
Arguing there’s no way to eliminate all risk is such a cop out. No one’s saying that’s possible, everyone can clearly see an acceptable minimal amount of risk was met by the organisers of the games with regards to water safety. Dave should have already stepped down, CEO should have already stepped down.
The conversation was so engaging that I didn't notice Angelo's shirt for the 1st 20 minutes. LOL
From a quick glance of footage, more lifeguards and safety divers in the water with the athletes across the whole course should have been standard
We used to say in the military “The rules are written in blood” you try your best to mitigate risk but sometimes changes aren’t made until someone dies
Yes! If you competed til the end great, if your heart said go home, fine, if you thought you could do it, then crashed & realized, I can’t do this…everyone deals with grief differently. No judgement! 78% said go on. 78% of the crowd felt the same. It was tough to enjoy the games with the loss; but for me & I guess 78% of the athletes staying together, grieving together (which includes celebrating & laughter) was better than going home alone, grieving, with no one that understands…to go with the games was the BEST decision for at least 78% of us…athletes, CF community, and just those like me, an ordinary fan, who was saved by CF & appreciates all that these athletes have gone thru.
If you're willing to choose safety over freedom, you deserve neither.
Absolutely. Attack a human that put his whole heart into not only the games, but the athletes. Dave’s heart has to be crushed. His remorse was evident. Please let Dave know that we are hurting for him & praying for him. Praying for Lazar’s family & for the whole CF community. …but I sure hope & pray someone is sending love to Dave.
🙏❤🙏💔🙏
This whole situation was weird, disappointing, gut wrenching, traumatic to say the least. The CEO should have made the executive decision to postpone the games. Point blank period. Faul please step-down. I wish Froning would be the new program director. Not sure who should be the next CEO. The investigation will not give me any peace of mind. I hope it gives Lazar family peace of mind and justice ❤ As a volunteer at Wodapalooza for 3 years these events are planned and tested, unfortunately a thorough safety plan was missing. #Inmyhumbleopinion
@@msdeefit Justice is a strange word to use if you are saying you do not care about the investigation findings.
Justice implies something to prosecute.
That would mandate an investigation.
Anyone with something to say about this, that isn’t an athlete, coach, or pfaa member, could be more misguided, you included. Faul needs to step down? 78% of athletes agreed with him. But YOU didn’t like it so what facts or precedent do you have for this decision? (Precedent means prior occurrence that you can compare to a current situation - in other words. This is unprecedented ◡̈)
Loved this discussion and the input from everyone and there absolutely are a myraid of thoughts and feelings. I would say about the wave, that wasnt without feeling of loss. I felt in that moment was everyone together realizing that we can both be grieved but also appreciate the moments of joy in life even with more awareness because of the heaviness of loss. I know the athletes were feeling loss, but the fans were grieving as well, and dealing with the feelings as well. Everyone was coping including the fans as well.
But i appreciated the rational and well spoken discussion you had. Thank you
It's so good to hear from you guys. Thank you for reaching out. I know that it's hard for everyone that is truly a part of the sport to say anything at this time. But it like you all are the voice of reason. You're caring loving group. I will always respect Mayhem for the people. And community that you have.
We knew that you as athletes were taking the floor for Lazar to do what he worked so hard at and loved ❤ and many of us respected that🌸in this house we will keep his name alive. my daughter whose nine wanted to get the shirts. So even though money is not great for me she wanted to give to his family and lessons on giving when life is hard for others is a great thing to teach. Hugs to you and all the athletes that had to push through in such a sad loss of a wonderful person ❤
Angelo - Idolizing a politician is like believing the stripper really likes you.
😂😂😂 idolizing a felon*
The reality is that everyone experiences loss differently, everyone grieves differently, everyone has a different level of ability to compartmentalize.
The athletes who stayed AND the athletes who left did so based on what they believed was the best decision or what they were able to handle on a personal level.
People are upset because someone else wasn’t grieving in the same manner as them and they view it as that person not caring rather than understanding they are experiencing the same range of emotions and processing them in the way they are able. Tragedy causes high emotion, but dont turn that emotion into anger towards others just because they aren’t doing what you are
One thing I will say, after losing my parents it's made it so much easier for me to know how to help people going through grief. Before that I was kind of clueless. I mean I've lost people before but my parents was very different because the responsibility was on my shoulders.
I wish you wouldn’t talk over each other. All good information from each one of you. I want to hear the complete thought.
Agreed. I’m looking forward to hearing from Rich. Someone who I know and trust who has CrossFit at the heart of all choices and decisions he makes for himself, for his team and his affiliate family.
Any chance we can get time stamps on topics?
Hey, what about putting trackers on swimmers which send an alarm to safety personel when someone goes under-water.
Thank you for your thoughts
The overtalking is distracting.
Okay so guys no one is negating the fact there is risk. There is risk to all things in life and more so in elite sports. But it’s the job of the hosting entity that all possible risk factors are assessed and planned for. The man was not. In the middle of the water with 50 other people around him. Yes that is difficult to cover. This man was like 20 something odd yards away from the shore. People saw it on camera from their living room. How did no one germane to the swim area not see it! There was only a few people around him and everyone’s eyes are around the finish line. And then people who were behind him cross finish line no one was considering how it’s possible they pass him?! Guys, this has nothing to do with the risk factor. Everyone understands. But it’s clear there is negligence. Whether he cramped out there, or had a heart attack or a seizure… any reason. It’s the job of the entity to have eagle eyes to see something and immediately react. You should discuss what possible negligence happened. Why would you “trust” just whatever an “investigation” tells you. Come on now. You guys are smarter than that I have experienced first hand. You should know that if in the past there was always really good safety protocols…. What happened here. What was different from what you could limitedly see. If someone got hit in the head. Someone would rush right away. And they have. Someone broke their leg motocross etc it was be immediately seen and addressed. Many times death is still very much possible. But there was an attempt. Here there was no attempt and no eyes on him at all. But spectators saw and no one took them seriously. So yes this is the fault of the agency not the athlete.
For me if I were in a competition and I died, I would want everyone to feel comfortable grieving in whatever way helps them the most. For some that would be competing and for some that would be watching. I've lost my parents and I've learned that grief is weird and different things help people with grief and other things may not be so helpful. I would want the competition to continue with athletes feeling freedom to decide if they want to compete or not compete.
51’ into the podcast to hear the word « selfishly ».
I too process death differently 40 years in the fire services 30 years major metropolitan dept. We have to fill out our death doc ( in the event of LODD ) it documents what YOU want….all the way down to chaplain, pall bearers and your wishes across the board. I was promoted to Capt. on 9/11 we didn’t shut down, quite the opposite.