I see a LOT of people in the comments saying not to put water on a lithium battery fire because “lithium explodes in water”. Please remember that there is very little actual lithium metal in a li-ion battery. This isn’t your high school physics lab. The correct way to handle a lithium battery fire (if it is safe for you to do so) is to douse it in water until the fire department arrives. This keeps it cooler, slows the spread and can prevent the fire from spreading to the surroundings.
It might help if, in the future, you explain what actually causes the fire. The fire is caused by a runaway electrical short, inside the battery, and the electrolyte itself is highly flammable. Sure, the lithium "caused" the fire, but only because the dendrites of lithium built up and caused that short. AND that happens FAR more often with cheap, non-name-brand batteries, which is what all those cheap scooters use.
@@squirrelcovers6340 No. No it won't. Li-Ion batteries generate their own oxygen while burning in thermal runaway. The only way to put that out is to reduce the temperature. So, lots of water. That is why many fire safe boxes for recharging bicycle batteries have water containers in them that rupture under high temperatures and douse the battery with water as quickly as possible.
Hi hello sir, may I allow to ask a question and please help reply with your expertise on ebike battery. Yesterday when I was paddle my ebike at home with the parking stand mount on the floor, for testing the ebike speed, then suddenly my mother was talking to me, instead of I need to press the hand brake to stop the spining ebike, I turned off the ignition key, THEN I heard a "pop" sound (the motorhub was still in high speed spinning) I don't know the "pop" sound was came from the battery or came from the controller. Sir, may I ask in most of the cases, let say, if a person paddle the ebike halfway through, when the battery still on going supplying the energy into the controller, and the controller still on going supplying the power into the motorhub, and the motorhub still drawing power spinning at fast speed, then he turn off the ignition key OUT OF SUDDEN to cut off the ON GOING power supply intake from the battery, in this case what will happen to my battery? Sir, please help me, then I unpluged the ebike power plug from the battery, then I turn on the key ignition to purposely release the electric in the controller, then I plug the ebike power plug into the battery and heard a as usual spark sound. My concern now is, how do I know I already wound, injury, or damage my battery or not sir. Hope you understand my question, trillion thanks if you would please reply sir.
Ebike school sir, may I allow to ask a question and please help reply with your expertise on ebike battery. Yesterday when I was paddle my ebike at home with the parking stand mount on the floor, for testing the ebike speed, then suddenly my mother was talking to me, instead of I need to press the hand brake to stop the spining ebike, I turned off the ignition key, THEN I heard a "pop" sound (the motorhub was still in high speed spinning) I don't know the "pop" sound was came from the battery or came from the controller. Sir, may I ask in most of the cases, let say, if a person paddle the ebike halfway through, when the battery still on going supplying the energy into the controller, and the controller still on going supplying the power into the motorhub, and the motorhub still drawing power spinning at fast speed, then he turn off the ignition key OUT OF SUDDEN to cut off the ON GOING power supply intake from the battery, in this case what will happen to my battery? Sir, please help me, then I unpluged the ebike power plug from the battery, then I turn on the key ignition to purposely release the electric in the controller, then I plug the ebike power plug into the battery and heard a as usual spark sound. My concern now is, how do I know I already wound, injury, or damage my battery or not sir. Hope you understand my question, trillion thanks if you would please reply sir.
Why do they call it lithium batteries? There's only 2% lithium and up to 30% cobalt that reacts the same as lithium when on fire. 🤣 Ignorance is bliss.
I currently work as a e-bike/e-scooter technician, I deal with dead and defective batteries daily. Here are some things to consider: 1. A good BMS will save your ass, a shitty one is likely to be the cause of a fire. 2. Long term vibration can wear out insulators and metals in ways you never expect, one day the whole side of your battery can short out with the frame if the design is crap 3. If you have a chance, always get a battery with a "smart" BMS, get to know your battery and discover signs of danger before it gets bad. 4. FFS dont install lights on your own if you dont know what you are doing, so many people fry their electronics because of this. 5. A bad charger can keep pushing current to a dangerously high voltage cell group because BMS keeps switching the input on and off, every time its switches on it lets a small amount of current through untill it sees that its not okay and shuts it off again. This is a problem with some cheap BMS's.
Original poster, you don't need BMS to not catch fire on batteries. With or without, you can't make batteries create fire on its own unless you are hell bent on trying to make fire on the batteries, by using a lighter and fire starter to create fire. I have tried feeding 65V on a 3.7V li-ion cell for hours (No BMS) and it would not catch fire.. Tried this on multiple times with different make/model of the battery (1 or 2 cells in series) with same result. They do run hot though, but no catching of fire. The battery cells did die due to extreme high voltage (current was pretty damn high too). I have built BMS-less battery packs for my scooter multiple times in the past but none of them caught fire on charging. Another big problem you using the BMS is you are gonna get stranded in the middle of the road in cold winter because your ebike battery received a voltage sag and dip hitting below the low voltage limit of the BMS and will shut off your battery.
@@noobz5056 like the video said, battery fires are very rare. I have worked with batteries for many years and only had some just get really hot and spew out the electrolyte but never burst into flames like in some videos. One of my coworker on the other hand has worked twice as long as i have and he has had a few fires, one time charging, one time moving the battery discharge wire that cause an internal short and once he accidentally dropped a magnet on exposed side of the battery. Also i strongly disagree with the camp that thinks that a BMS is useless crap. I think you should always run a bms, run a bypass on discharge if you use it on euc or skateboard. If you worry so much about getting stranded then have the option to bypass it. If you voltage sag your battery all the time with cold, well then, be ready to say good bye to your cells soon. Running a pack without BMS will result in cells going bad 2x sooner, if you think you are running junk cells anyways and dont want to waste money on BMS then you gonna ruin your junk pack in 4x rate cause those cells like to go out of balance faster. Most of the battery related problems are clients who complain about their battery cutting off at 50%, most of the time its a out of balance pack with one group bellow 3V. If they didnt run a BMS the pack would be permanently dead under a year. Coming back to noobs wiring their scooters with lights bells and whistles. Often times its the BMS that will keep your scooter internals melting up cause someone somehow decided to short the wires coming from the battery.
@@GriftCraft don't know your exact situation but usually people tend to overload the internal 12 VDC converter of their controller. Usually its designed to just only manage the headlight that comes with the kit. If you go about installing 2 x powerful headlights then you are guaranteed to fry your converter or the whole controller. Best course would be to use a special "light controller" that works with your controller or have a separate fused output from your battery and a buck converter to 12V that runs all your lights. That way you can run lights with the scooter ignition turned off, good for late night picnics.
I agree with most of your points...untill number 5. What would be bad in that scenario is the bms not the charger. The chargers only job it to supply a constant current constant voltage power source.... its the bms's job to keep that power balanced between the cells. The charger has no way to sense the cell groups and turn on and off depending on them.....
For those who also don't speak electronics, I GOOGLED it for us: BMS means Battery Management System. *** To the rest of us looks like "guys just easily look put for the 44hehdb and change out the 34ufufbf"
I have owned an e -bike for almost 2 years. It wasn't the most expensive nor the cheapest but enjoy it! I even find myself riding it to work occasionally! I don't think it's really necessary but when I charge my bike, I like to wait about an hour before connecting the charger to give the battery temperature a chance to equalize with room temperature. I also like to plug the bike battery to the charger before plugging the charger to the outlet and STAY ALERT during the charging cycle! Just in case of an event! I may be over cautious but I want to protect my investment!
That's exactly what I do too. I've also started charging the battery in the same room that I'm in so I can keep an eye on it. And as soon as it's done, I unplug it starting with the charger from the wall first, and then the battery. 👌
This is important factual information to put out. The incidents of battery fires in NYC received far more fear-mongering coverage than was necessary. As usual, those who can least afford to upgrade their equipment are the hardest hit by the ordinances.
That place is the largest city in the world right? So there's more of everything. More people, and more of everything people own. Dogs, toasters, radios, shaving razors, what have you. I think that's a definite factor in quantifying all this. Plus I think of the liberal press as usually having a liberal political angle. If it's something people own that's deemed as something that takes a grown man's responsible mindset to deal with, then they tend to be on the bandwagon to restrict it somehow. Look no farther than gas stoves lately, and privately held guns always. Electric batteries are just another dangerous object to be regulated excessively or banned by the nanny state.
Instead of going on your conservative rant about NYC you could've realized the big issue with lithium fires in NYC is that the fires are impossible to extinguish and nearly everyone lives in an apartment sharing a singular building. The apartments are also often extremely small, therefore an ebike catching fire indoors anywhere in NYC could result in a literal disaster that could kill dozens of people. @@derekjolly3680
My Kalkhoff ebike uses a Bosch motor and battery. For the first time in its 6 year life, the battery management system prevented me from charging it until it had cooled down sufficiently. I had just completed a hard ride. Once the temp dropped the charging commenced. A good example of what you mentioned up front - always use the manufacturer's charger and choose a bike in which the battery has a good battery management system that can provide the data needed, ie, temperature. Thanks for another good vid.
I always unplug the charger when not in use. There are electronics inside the charger that control how much voltage to feed the batteries and when to turn the charger on and off. These electronics have to recycle or reboot like your phone, cable box, etc. Also, follow the manufacturer’s guidelines. For example, Nanrobot says to connect the scooter first then plug the charger in.
I now have my second e-bike, a specialized 5.0 vado (my other was the previous model). Im very happy with her. 2 pieces of advice for people getting into e-bikes. 1. never buy the bike or batery second hand. => fire hazard 2. don't go cheap on brands you cannot spell... you get what you pay for and if fire hazard or explosions are part of that ... just don't
Thank you for your channel! Finally got the yellow VELOTRIC Discover 2 Days ago. My cousin and I are riding to get into better shape. I’m closer to retirement and want to enjoy the outdoors more even though I don’t have the joints I had when I was younger. Rode it about 3 miles yesterday when I first got it and 30 miles today.
I’m in NYC and I’m very appreciative of this video! There is a ton of discrimination towards PEV owners in apartment buildings even if your bike is from a reputable brand. Lots of apartments in manhattan are banning e-bikes.
We that live in a modern world with cell phones, power banks and a variety of devices deal with a possibility of a battery fire. Great counsel on using appropriate chargers etc. Do appreciate your contribution to greater good with your video's and give away-es... Thanks for what you do.
Thanks for the info on e-bike batteries. I fly electric powered rc airplanes and have seen a few lipo battery fires that happened when the rc airplane crashed and the battery was punctured. Covering the burning battery with dirt and then if possible wet the dirt with water seems to work fairly well to contain the fire and prevent it from maybe starting a brush fire.
he says in the video that he's built and worked on a thousand e-bikes over the years. He has written books about how to properly build lithium batteries and ebikes. The guy has a pretty good idea what he's talking about. @@WimpyWorkouts
A ebike battery maintence article recommended Luna charger . I charge my battery about 1 or 2 hours after riding when battery level 1/2 . Charge at 1 amp to 80% . It was recommended for safer charging and longer battery life .
Hi, I watch ur videos almost everyday, I am here to say my neighbours' e bike caught on fire tonight, it's 2:09 am and I am finally back in my house with my own e bike. Not sure what exactly happened, but I think he was charging it and went out with his girlfriend. I was already awake so I tried to wake up my other neighbours and the police told us to leave the area, so I told him not without my e bike, so I took out mine and just looked at the fire while my building manager was asking me a whole bunch of questions about e bike fires. It's a good thing I watch tonnes of videos. The fire department is still here. Thanks again for making good videos :)
I've had a UL listed EBike for less than 2 weeks. Love it! Having used L-I batteries in cordless tools over the past 3 1/2 years, I treat then with care, charge at room temperature, never buy third party batteries or chargers. I've never had a problem.
I do of course keep it in the back of my mind as the reality is anything electronic and high energy batteries can overheat and fail... HOWEVER I agree that this is very far from an ebike issue and hate that the media is misdirecting the blame... As always GREAT Info...
I use a 52V LUNA charger n put my 30Ah triangle batteries in an ammo can when charging, just to contain any fire that might occur. Never had any issues charging, even with "inexpensive" batteries from DH Gate. One caution I do have: Eyeball the wires where they exit the battery for worn or frayed insulation! I found 2 batteries with frayed insulation that could easily have arced n started a nasty fire between my legs. I clipped the connector off and used heat shrink n electrical tape to protect the cables n had no issues after that.
Vibration is the devil. My ebike is still in shakedown mode. I really need to pick up some high ampacity flexible wire and replace most of what I've done. I used 10 gage stranded, but calling it flexible would be a lie.
Thanks for the reassurance. I had just ordered my first ebike. Right after, I changed upon a TH-cam video where a guy's $6000 bike becomes a yard-inferno! And I'm thinking "What have I done!?" Watching your video made me feel way better. I had begun wondering if I should have cancelled my order.
I think some people get obsessed with fast quick charging, due to getting a charger that came initially with the e-vehicle having a painfully slow charge rate. I can understand of battery fires perhaps happening with these fast charging attempts. I bought a triangle battery of 25 AH, which came with a slow as 2A charger. Which failed after 4 charging cycles of the battery. Looking up the battery cell specs the manufacturer stated a maximum 5A charge rate. So I got a 5A charger to stay within the battery parameters. Needless to say, charging time improved and the battery did not get hot during charging. So... don't let the "more is better" mantra get the better of you. The grief isnt worth it, for the wanting "it now" mindset.
I currently own a seated scooter from VoroMotors. My battery is a 72v 42AH Molicel pack with smart BMS overheat and discharge protection you name it. Im still aware of charging my battery especially during the night im always hesitant to charge it while im sleeping (balance the cells overnight). When i know im not gonna ride it for a few days or a week i drain it down to 30-60% and store my scooter in my room. Learned a lot from this video appreciate you. 😊
Hi I brought a Totguard, 26"x4 fat tire folding, I watch your videos and in well informed. Thanks to your detailed teaching on ebikes. I use a small electric fan blowing directly for my battery 🔋 charger this keeps the charger a little cool during charging, I charge during the day where I can keep and eye on the charging time, again. Thank fir all your videos on safety,,I am a subscriber,,
My late uncle used to pay us kids to unbox pallet loads of goods and put UL Listed stickers on "goods" we were very busy. That was many decades ago. Yes he was Italian and a great person. ...just sayin' cause it's true.
I have worked with Underwriter Laboratories for years. After something gets approved UL doesn’t put stickers on anything, what they do is allow companies to put their approval on products that have actually been approved. I know from personal experience that UL will go after companies & people that claim they are “UL Approved” when they are not, and the are relentless!
@Treasure Traveler not in this case. In a bizarre twist,... years later, I was invited to the UL facility in Chicago's northern burbs to help them understand the safety of a system that I specialized in. Don't believe it? Well, they made me wear safety glasses everywhere that wasn't the lobby. It was pretty silly given all we did was discuss things.
Obviously, this is a really hot topic. I hope nobody gets fired up and flames you in the comments. Personally, I'm burning with desire for one of your books. I can do this all day.
Regarding batteries on fire, or potentially igniting. The primary threat is the high temperatures that multi-cell packs can generate. This can ignite other items. The secondary issue is the fumes. They are toxic, and potentially contaminate their surroundings. There are safer battery chemistries but the potential for fire/fumes is the issue. As to extinguishers, water does cool the process, and if nothing else is available it can keep temps down, but it also can spread the potential contamination far & wide. Chemical extinguishers don’t reliably work, and can cause their own contamination problems. A good choice would be one (two or more) CO2 extinguishers. These both cool, and starve the fire of oxygen, while not adding to the contamination situation. But where to charge them? Fireplaces (enclosed) or charcoal grills can contain heat, and prevent fire, but the don’t really address the contamination issue. Avoiding a larger fire is admirable, but dealing with the other issues should be planned for. Charging in a fire resistant bag or case is a good start. However moving that battery out of a home, apartment or garage is better. Placing the battery/fire resistant container on a movable platform, like a metal cart, preferably with a fire resistant covering of cement board, cut to fit, and replaceable. To contain contaminated battery materials, and shield the owner from fire/fumes/explosion. Note: the fire, once put out may be, or eventually will be considered a contamination event. So the provision of easily removable fire resistant materials helps. Lastly, borrowing a principal used with oil lamps the are burned indoors: Never Leave A Lamp Burning “Unattended”. Over time I’ve also backed up that rule with suitable fire/gas detectors, preferably with a remote alarm and alert function. Though if in person, a detector in the immediate location (on or attached) to the battery/cart, and a backup room mount detector would be best. Obviously running a few fire drills to safely remove the cart from the dwelling or garage will help reduce panic. Don’t forget to have a fume/gas, full face mask hanging close by, along wit fire resistant coat/gloves/boots.
Yeah you really have a great Public Service going here with your videos very informative! My charging procedure is putting my battery into a fireproof bag inside of a steel can with a tight-fitting lid with three layers of 1000 degree temperature fireproof insulation that is used on stainless steel chimney liners. The three layers equals 3000 degrees protection so that if the battery does decide to short out and start burning the containment will prevent it from catching other things on fire. The insulation is on the bottom of the can and it's on the lid. The lid is held down with a cam Buckle strap around the can so that if they fire does break out the expansion of the gases won't blow the lid off the can then to top it all off I keep it on a cement floor on my patio outside of my house. And I never charge it over night I charge it during the day when I'm up and can monitor it from time to time. I know this is overkill and it couldn't really cost me much of anything at all and it gives me a lot of peace of mind just like insurance it's there when you need it.
If you *must* charge overnight, plug the charger into a timer, that way if your e-bike takes 4 hours to charge, that's all you charge it for, you can cut the number of hours where there's any risk considerably. I do this even with my phone, the charger for that only gets power for an hour, rather than the whole night.
The classic NYC e-bike tragedy goes this way. Bring the battery inside your apartment, plug the battery in right next to the door & get trapped when the fire starts. Or plug it in and go out for the evening and it burns your place and through the floor below. I’m involved with the renovation of 2,400 NYCHA public housing apartments and hardly a week goes by without this occurring at one of the campuses…
I charge my battery on the balcony, if it catches fire it will be on the opposite side of the building from the exit, surrounded by concrete, and easily accessed by the fire department.
Thanks for a much-needed video. Our household currently has 3 ebikes, all kept in the garage. We have a 2-stage smoke (detects both heat and smoke) detector, a CO2 detector and a WYSE security cam that calls my cell phone if it detects either type of alarm. Our house rules are: never charge at night, and the person who is charging must keep doors open between them and the garage (which has an interior door). Knock wood, we’ve used this method since 2015 with zero issues. Our ebikes are from Rad, Ride 1 Up, and Lectric. PS: One of the bikes came with a User Manual that gave conflicting information with the Battery Manual: one said plug the charger into the wall first, the other said plug into the battery first to avoid sparks when plugging in. I looked online and most videos say to connect to the wall first. Do newer bikes include “spark protection” ?
Thank you for the useful information on lithium ion fires and helping calm some of the fears that the news media is so great at spreading. Knowing how to deal with the unlikely situation is great information to have.
Hey everyone, I just came across a new e-bike project that I wanted to share with you all. It's called freebeat Morph 2-in-1 e-Bike, and it seems quite revolutionary. One feature that really caught my attention is the ability to charge the bike when using it indoors. That's a game-changer! Plus, the bike's brushless 750W motor with 80Nm torque and a top speed of 20mph sounds super impressive. And with its 80mm front suspension and puncture-resistant fat tires, it can handle any terrain. The Morph eBike also offers a unique blend of fitness and technology, with the Smart Saddle Detection+ feature for performance insights. Let's support this project and see where it goes!
Love my velotric. The one thing ppl should know is that you have to let the battery warmup before charging. The charger won't charge it until it warms up
Do you really think the Chinese will not put the UL hologram on their batteries, just to get around the restrictions, as they will do with any other regulation.
An in-depth explanation well understood, thank you. Had some doubts about Lithiums and charging rates for some time. (I'm an Ex-nicad scale custom rc vehicle builder)
The clips of the off brand scooters igniting was good. I didn't know they were highly prone to that. They're so cheap sometimes it's tempting, but now I'll steer clear.
Appreciating your insights provided in terms of preventive & proactive action points as well as personal experience regarding e-bikes. Also, the community tips from the comment section discussions are pretty helpful. Looking forward!
I have a Ride1Up 700. Three years old, plenty of charge cycles. I have no idea if my BMS is a crappy one. I just do preventive care by: 1) Discovering early how long the battery (all Samsung cells) takes to fully charge, then getting a wall timer to cut off the charger at that time interval. For mine, it's about 5 hours. 2) In my very wet environment, I used high qualty electrical tape and sealed up the opening at the bottom bracket where all the cables come out. The BMS connections are sealed, but they are visible up inside there. Some moisture probably won't do any harm, but jus sayin. I also taped around the periphery of the battery itself, which is the typical tilt -out type. 3) I do not remove the battery to charge it, thus reducing the chance of bending or kinking anything, such as the prongs that go up into the case. The battery weighs 12 pounds and can slip down hard if you lose your grip. Ikeepthe prongs lubed wit hdielectric grease to keep them from getting oxidized or corroded. With me, not much chance, but again - jus sayin. 4) To reduce battery vibrations, I have three heavy duty ZipTies around the battery trunk/down tube to keep it rigid. I may replace that with a thick compressible gasket in the future. After 4000 miles the only thing that has failed are the built-in lights, which I have replaced with a more powerful bar mounted headlight and the usual red blinkies in back, white to the sides. The light failure isn't in the lights themselves, but in the controller, so, I assume vibrations are the culprit. Had to happen as some point, right? Otherwise, great bike for the price.
Indeed, it is a legitimate concern that anyone could face the risk of their bicycle catching fire. It is imperative that manufacturers prioritize the safety of consumers by designing products, including bicycles and automobiles, with robust battery protection mechanisms. Failure to do so may result in diminished market demand due to the heightened risk of fire and personal harm.
Let your battery cool down after use before recharging. Never, ever leave it unattended or on longer than necessary. Use wifi camera & smoke detector. Lay a welding mat on the floor where you park your bike. Drape your bike under a fire blanket when charging. Charge your battery inside a steel trash can with a fire blanket & self activating extinguisher. A few things I utilize to help in case of a battery fire.
Love your videos, have watched most all of them. It makes sense to not charge ebike's at night, and I will start charging during the day when I'm not riding it. As you know, I built my own bike, and it is still running well. I upgraded it from 2k watts to 3k watts. I going about 10 mph faster, but I never find the need to go that fast. It's pretty scary actually. I would like to build a fat tire trike. And finally build my own battery for it using Vruzend connectors. I have 2 boxes, but will need more. I haven't been able to restart the ebike journey I was planning, due to family issues, but I am still looking forward to it. Hope to see a few of your videos about ebike journeys. Bless you Mikey in all your endeavors. Always riding, Mike Wiltse
I don't even try to repair the batteries i build. If cells go bad, you will never be able to batch them with mixed cells. If the BMS goes dead, it is because there is bigger problems, such as shorted or very unbalanced cells. When you build your own battery pack(s), always start from scratch. Never use mixed-lot cells, common (charge/discharge) port BMS, or a cheap BMS w/o thermal protection sensors. Always install separate in-line fuses, for both charging (~5A) and discharging (~20A to 30A). Never build a battery that is too small for your needs. Add at least 1/3 more for headroom, so you don't over stress battery. And last, if you are unsure, then don't try. Buy a battery you know is safe.
An aftermarket charger should not be a problem. Your charger is not a charger. It is a power supply. The charger is inside your battery. The BMS is the charger and it is inside the battery pack. The amperage on the back of the power supply is the maximum amount of current the power supply can deliver. Electricity is *ALWAYS* "demand driven" You have your power supply connected to a 15 amp 120v outlet. That doesn't mean that items you plug into your wall are getting 15 amps. That is just the maximum current the wiring in your house can safely supply. If the BMS maxes out at 2 amps, but your power supply says 4 amps, it just means your power supply will be operating at 50% of its capacity. The BMS will put a 2amp load on the supply. The supply will not "force" 4 amps down the throat of the charger.
Long story short quit work to take care of Mom with cancer kept promise to mom to take care of Dad after she passed when Dad passed try to go back to work discover I am agoraphobic with social anxiety and panic attacks I am getting an e-bike because I want to get in better shape get the vitamin d my doctor says I need and hopefully get better mentally I don't want to be like this I want to be like I was God bless you for doing the good that you're doing!!!!💖
Wow I had not thought about a bike fire before! (something new to consider) I have a few rechargeable tools, & yes common sense helps a lot. fires "might" happen while recharging - most likely old battery (?) a failed or incorrect charger :o bad wiring of the tool (or Bike,car, a goofy (wrong) battery, incorrect connections (?) all stuff to watch out for. [operate error is prolly the worst thing (so educate yourself And do things the best you can) thank you for the great information! we might not all have the best fire extinguisher close by. {that would be best & safest} BUT water [or dirt/sand] will work as you said. thank you.
I never charge my scooter without watching it. I will let it charge and check every half hour until i get close then i check sooner. I always check my battery and wires during charging to make sure they're not getting hot. i never charge right after riding (let it cool for at least 1 hour). Never charge overnight . I did research to find out my max charge amp and i never exceed it. I padded my battery so it doesn't bang around in the scooter when riding. When I buy a new scooter I always check the wires to make sure they're fat enough if they're not I replaced them with thicker wires that can handle higher amps. (I have experience with this type of thing so not recommend it for those who do not have expertise in this type of thing)
Another important tip to avoid fires is to take good care of your battery. As batteries age, they build up resistance in the form of dendrites that can generate heat while charging and eventually short the cell and lead to thermal runaway. Don’t leave your battery at a high or low state of charge. In a perfect world, you would store at 50%, charge to 80% and discharge back to 50%. Your Battery would last longer than you.
I haven't heard too many comments regarding the potential risks due to overcharging a lithium battery. I hear overcharging any battery, even in you phone or laptop, can shorten its life or, in some rare cases, cause a fire. I believe these e-bike manufacturers should have a built-in maintainer with the charger so that the charger will stop charging the battery once it reaches 100%. This would it be helpful not just to prevent potential fires but to also keep the battery healthier longer. Myself? I pull the plug on my devices once they reach between 85-95% charge.
I wish more manufacturers offered a LiFePo battery option, if only for the peace of mind. More and more landlords, and even cities, are restricting bringing Lithium-Ion batteries inside. But they MAY allow LiFePo batteries. Personally, I would be willing to accept less power and ride time for the added safety margin, and decreased likelihood of some landlord complaining. Not all of us have houses with garages and driveways. I lived for 6 years in my minivan, with a BattleBorn LifePo battery under my head, in the Arizona desert, and in the frozen early spring in Washington. I always felt completely safe. Partly because of the chemistry, partly because of the high-quality battery management system built into the battery, and partly because of the high-quality, brand-name charge controller that I used to supply power to the battery.
Question, live in Arizona and the temp yesterday was 111, accidently left my lectric XP 3.0 long range battery ebike in the sun all day. Too say the least there wasn't a part of the ebike that wasn't hot. End of day brought it in the house to cool down. Now the question, given the above scenario, what effect(s) does this outside heat have on the battery sitting in the sun and also riding in the sun? First time viewer on your channel and subscribed. Great video
Thanks for your vid Micah. I'm so paranoid about potential lithium-ion fire & the charging process/BMS balancing. My charger has never worked like other chargers in that it didn't stay green when finishing charging, but would go back to red for a minute then green for a few seconds then back to red ad infinitum. After 600 miles they replaced the charger & now it seems to work like all other chargers I've ever used, after I finished with their balancing instructions by letting it drain to 20% then charge for at least 12 hours until the red light starts blinking, indicating balancing. I did that 3 times per tech request. And now my battery gets 10 more miles of throttle only use, bringing it to 30 miles total of throttle only use on a full charge, which is plenty fine with me. I lived in fear of battery fire for the whole time it took to put 600 miles on the bike because I didn't trust the tech saying the back & forth from green to red was normal. I'm still shell shocked that it took so long to resolve with a charger replacement, when it should've happened on the first time I reported it.
Imo the charger going from green to red and back would indicate balancing is happening, since it will accept a small amount of energy again when the cells have been balanced. This process will go on until it's fully balanced and fully charged.
My battery requires a 43.8v charger because it is using lfp cells. I'm still using a 42v charger for long life because it never charges above 80%. I realized later that it can also prevent over charging. 😊
Very inexpensive and flexible trivets can be purchased from multiple sources. If you need to charge your battery, make sure your AC Charger unit and battery are on surfaces and in spaces where if things go wrong, damage will be minimized. Particularly if you know that like mine, your AC charger gets real hot under normal charging conditions.
I don't yet have an ebike I've been investigating trying to build one on the cheap side. I have stage 4 cancer so I can't go far on my mountain bike I made a basket for my little dog she loves it I love your videos if you could help me out finding cheap safe components or put me in your drawing that would be awesome thank you I'll keep watching your awesome channel Mike
I would add a note to the charging when you get home, I wouldn't charge it immediately, but rather give it 30mins, especially in summer when it's hot out. And check you chargers output. I may not be to spec, I've had one charger that would overcharge. But in general I would agree, batteries are safe, especially the cylindrical cells from the main companies. I however will never have lipos bigger than the laptops battery in the house. Having a 500wh battery swell up and leak electrolyte was scary. And now I've got a 1.5kwh battery.
hope you do more bike to e-bike transformation videos, there're so many brands and parts online, i recently bought a bike for exercising, i want to turn it into an e-bike and i'm considering what to buy
It seems to be a real issue. But then again we also have a gas stove top with open burners. When used without supervision these things cause fires too. Maybe its about supevision more than anything else
You're right! The media makes you think that sooner or later ALL E-bikes will explode! HAHAHA Thanks for your reassurance, Micah. PS.......... loved your update on the E-truck. I recall watching you unwrap that load! Great to see it's still great.
My husband and I love our eBikes We bought a couple of cheap hurleys. We wasn't sure we'd even like e bikes. My husband just had a triple heart bypass.
Just got a LiFePO4. Only tried it a couple of times but it charges and discharges without heat as far as I can tell. I have it in a carry box that goes into a "trunk" on the back of the ebike and there are no heat issues. The regular 18650 52v battery gets overheated in the same space. I was gonna cut in some vents into the trunk but with the LiFePO4 I may not need it. Also, the battery was half the cost, 33% more Amp hours and no overheating or flash fire issues (supposedly) and allegedly twice the charge cycles. Win/Win/Win/Win... Anybody else tried these out yet?
Thanks for sharing your experiences. LFP should be the way to go for micromobility manufacturers. More usable capacity (0-100% versus “babying” NMC between 20-80% to minimize capacity degradation), much lower likelihood of thermal runaway, lower cost per Wh. Not that shortcuts should be tolerated in BMS or casing, but it makes consequences of such lower.
it is not all win, win, win. they are heavier, bulkier, and lower voltage per cell. Which puts their watt/ kilogram at a lower value….that’s why they’re not used extensively on ebikes, where weight and space are primary concerns
I’d say not burning up your ebike and possibly your home as well are more important. Having a chemistry less prone to thermal runaway failures will help avoid fires and ultimately tighter regulations and outright bans. Ebikes can easily carry any additional weight, especially when you factor in LFP cells can be used over their entire charge capacity, unlike NMC cells, there isn’t as much volume or mass difference as you’d think. There is a lot of available space in any frame design - there’s a lot of “negative space” in the overall “envelop”. LFP cells are rated for about 5-7X the number of full charge cycles before they drop below 80% of their initial capacity than NMC cells, and for many users, a pack gets used up every 0.5-3 days of use, so having 2500-3500 versus 350-700 full charge cycles is a meaningful difference given the prices of reliable packs, especially for people who use their e-bikes for delivery work.
What I am worried about more than fires is finding a replacement battery once the original stops working. 2 Ebikes sitting in the garage with no battery packs. Anyone wants to buy them they are constructed like a tank.
Charging is less problematic than you think, aftermarket is ok and most scooters dont rely on "intelligent" chargers and chargers typically have only 2 leads. The scooters just need a voltage ABOVE the battery pack to allow for fully charging and balancing. As soon the BMS or better, dedicated charging circuit in the scooter knows the battery is full there is no more power delivery into the battery (and the charger typically turns "green"/off) I put on a 10Ah battery up to 8A (or at 50V up to about 400W) into, you have to make sure the connectors and BMS also allows for that power! Note that the original charger took about 5-6 hours and had 2A, i even tried 8A and yes, it works! from 20% charge to 80% within 50 minutes, would have taken 4 hours at least with the 2A original power brick. The only thing which i am aware of... when possible i go for the 2A original charger to let the cells balance properly, which i dont typically do with fast charging, there i stop charging way below about 90% charge level to reduce harm a bit. I have a DC DC converter mounted on the scooter as charger, it can be used for charging or using the scooters battery as variable 1000W, up to 100V 10A power supply. It has also 2 modes "preset" via different resistors and switchable on the handlebar, once the 8A which is just used for driving uphill to decrease load on the scooter battery and another setting, giving about 3,5-4A, so 150-200W for charging on the go from tool batteries, from the 12V car battery or just basic charging at home from a 330W 28V DC Laptop power supply. Having the charger, a small 1000W buck/boost converter always on the scooter and you just need a 12-60V DC power source to charge your scooter is awesome, tho at voltages below 15V its the best to pick 4A charging current otherwise the DC DC converter gets a bit overloaded with current on the input side and it needs to step up
Thank you. Very useful information. I'll definitely consider lipo for my next purchase. Hopefully the price will come down a bit. UL certification is good, but, it comes at a premium too. My Dad always said, "Safety First Son." Words to live by. Thanks again. Cincinnati, Ohio
You said "avoid lipo", but didn't say why. They're definitely more expensive and I would hope it's UL certified. No one seems to think that's important, but I sure do. Thanks for your response. Cincinnati, Ohio
@@DavidCooper-vh4nr LiPo thermal runaways are very dangerous, unlike single 18650 or 21650 cells in a package. Also because of mechanical stress LiPos are to avoid in any electric vehicle There is a reason you see LiPos more or less exclusively on DIY bikes etc.
Thanks for the information. Oh, I was reluctant to go out and consider purchasing a Evike due to the possibility of having it in my garage, and it be charging and catching on fire, as I sleep. The information gives me options Such as the charging boxes or bags that can be purchased two and close the battery as it charges. Thanks again.
Well, you know me Micha and no doubt saw the monster I built, with lipos no less, not once did I have issues with the batteries, no BMS is what did it though, I forgot to turn the bike off one night and heavily discharged the battery packs...... The big thing though is, I DID NOT try to reuse or or recharge the cells again, I repurposed some of the cells for another project but those cells that were under 2V got discharged and sent off to be recycled. Never once did I have any form of fire even pulling 100's of amps from those batteries. The big thing and where you open a door to fire is when a battery has been deeply discharged because the BMS does not work and you then go to recharge those batteries, it might work, you might get lucky, but you might also get very UN lucky...... As you also said, the wrong charger and or, trying to charge to quickly, regular li-ion cells only want to charge at 0.5C any higher and you cause permanent damage and degrade the lifespan of the cell, also, charging faster means more heat which further Increases the risk of fire........ Just be safe, do not take risks and you will most likely not run into issues, the media tends to look for sensation and hypes everything they can to feed the ratings monster, this is just another one of those classic knee jerk reactions that drive negative publicity toward ebikes....
I see a LOT of people in the comments saying not to put water on a lithium battery fire because “lithium explodes in water”. Please remember that there is very little actual lithium metal in a li-ion battery. This isn’t your high school physics lab. The correct way to handle a lithium battery fire (if it is safe for you to do so) is to douse it in water until the fire department arrives. This keeps it cooler, slows the spread and can prevent the fire from spreading to the surroundings.
It might help if, in the future, you explain what actually causes the fire. The fire is caused by a runaway electrical short, inside the battery, and the electrolyte itself is highly flammable. Sure, the lithium "caused" the fire, but only because the dendrites of lithium built up and caused that short. AND that happens FAR more often with cheap, non-name-brand batteries, which is what all those cheap scooters use.
@@squirrelcovers6340 No. No it won't. Li-Ion batteries generate their own oxygen while burning in thermal runaway. The only way to put that out is to reduce the temperature. So, lots of water. That is why many fire safe boxes for recharging bicycle batteries have water containers in them that rupture under high temperatures and douse the battery with water as quickly as possible.
Hi hello sir, may I allow to ask a question and please help reply with your expertise on ebike battery. Yesterday when I was paddle my ebike at home with the parking stand mount on the floor, for testing the ebike speed, then suddenly my mother was talking to me, instead of I need to press the hand brake to stop the spining ebike, I turned off the ignition key, THEN I heard a "pop" sound (the motorhub was still in high speed spinning) I don't know the "pop" sound was came from the battery or came from the controller. Sir, may I ask in most of the cases, let say, if a person paddle the ebike halfway through, when the battery still on going supplying the energy into the controller, and the controller still on going supplying the power into the motorhub, and the motorhub still drawing power spinning at fast speed, then he turn off the ignition key OUT OF SUDDEN to cut off the ON GOING power supply intake from the battery, in this case what will happen to my battery? Sir, please help me,
then I unpluged the ebike power plug from the battery, then I turn on the key ignition to purposely release the electric in the controller, then I plug the ebike power plug into the battery and heard a as usual spark sound.
My concern now is, how do I know I already wound, injury, or damage my battery or not sir. Hope you understand my question, trillion thanks if you would please reply sir.
Ebike school sir, may I allow to ask a question and please help reply with your expertise on ebike battery. Yesterday when I was paddle my ebike at home with the parking stand mount on the floor, for testing the ebike speed, then suddenly my mother was talking to me, instead of I need to press the hand brake to stop the spining ebike, I turned off the ignition key, THEN I heard a "pop" sound (the motorhub was still in high speed spinning) I don't know the "pop" sound was came from the battery or came from the controller. Sir, may I ask in most of the cases, let say, if a person paddle the ebike halfway through, when the battery still on going supplying the energy into the controller, and the controller still on going supplying the power into the motorhub, and the motorhub still drawing power spinning at fast speed, then he turn off the ignition key OUT OF SUDDEN to cut off the ON GOING power supply intake from the battery, in this case what will happen to my battery? Sir, please help me,
then I unpluged the ebike power plug from the battery, then I turn on the key ignition to purposely release the electric in the controller, then I plug the ebike power plug into the battery and heard a as usual spark sound.
My concern now is, how do I know I already wound, injury, or damage my battery or not sir. Hope you understand my question, trillion thanks if you would please reply sir.
Why do they call it lithium batteries? There's only 2% lithium and up to 30% cobalt that reacts the same as lithium when on fire. 🤣
Ignorance is bliss.
I currently work as a e-bike/e-scooter technician, I deal with dead and defective batteries daily. Here are some things to consider:
1. A good BMS will save your ass, a shitty one is likely to be the cause of a fire.
2. Long term vibration can wear out insulators and metals in ways you never expect, one day the whole side of your battery can short out with the frame if the design is crap
3. If you have a chance, always get a battery with a "smart" BMS, get to know your battery and discover signs of danger before it gets bad.
4. FFS dont install lights on your own if you dont know what you are doing, so many people fry their electronics because of this.
5. A bad charger can keep pushing current to a dangerously high voltage cell group because BMS keeps switching the input on and off, every time its switches on it lets a small amount of current through untill it sees that its not okay and shuts it off again. This is a problem with some cheap BMS's.
Original poster, you don't need BMS to not catch fire on batteries. With or without, you can't make batteries create fire on its own unless you are hell bent on trying to make fire on the batteries, by using a lighter and fire starter to create fire. I have tried feeding 65V on a 3.7V li-ion cell for hours (No BMS) and it would not catch fire.. Tried this on multiple times with different make/model of the battery (1 or 2 cells in series) with same result. They do run hot though, but no catching of fire. The battery cells did die due to extreme high voltage (current was pretty damn high too). I have built BMS-less battery packs for my scooter multiple times in the past but none of them caught fire on charging. Another big problem you using the BMS is you are gonna get stranded in the middle of the road in cold winter because your ebike battery received a voltage sag and dip hitting below the low voltage limit of the BMS and will shut off your battery.
@@noobz5056 like the video said, battery fires are very rare. I have worked with batteries for many years and only had some just get really hot and spew out the electrolyte but never burst into flames like in some videos. One of my coworker on the other hand has worked twice as long as i have and he has had a few fires, one time charging, one time moving the battery discharge wire that cause an internal short and once he accidentally dropped a magnet on exposed side of the battery.
Also i strongly disagree with the camp that thinks that a BMS is useless crap. I think you should always run a bms, run a bypass on discharge if you use it on euc or skateboard. If you worry so much about getting stranded then have the option to bypass it. If you voltage sag your battery all the time with cold, well then, be ready to say good bye to your cells soon.
Running a pack without BMS will result in cells going bad 2x sooner, if you think you are running junk cells anyways and dont want to waste money on BMS then you gonna ruin your junk pack in 4x rate cause those cells like to go out of balance faster. Most of the battery related problems are clients who complain about their battery cutting off at 50%, most of the time its a out of balance pack with one group bellow 3V. If they didnt run a BMS the pack would be permanently dead under a year.
Coming back to noobs wiring their scooters with lights bells and whistles. Often times its the BMS that will keep your scooter internals melting up cause someone somehow decided to short the wires coming from the battery.
@@GriftCraft don't know your exact situation but usually people tend to overload the internal 12 VDC converter of their controller. Usually its designed to just only manage the headlight that comes with the kit. If you go about installing 2 x powerful headlights then you are guaranteed to fry your converter or the whole controller. Best course would be to use a special "light controller" that works with your controller or have a separate fused output from your battery and a buck converter to 12V that runs all your lights. That way you can run lights with the scooter ignition turned off, good for late night picnics.
I agree with most of your points...untill number 5. What would be bad in that scenario is the bms not the charger. The chargers only job it to supply a constant current constant voltage power source.... its the bms's job to keep that power balanced between the cells. The charger has no way to sense the cell groups and turn on and off depending on them.....
For those who also don't speak electronics, I GOOGLED it for us:
BMS means Battery Management System.
***
To the rest of us looks like "guys just easily look put for the 44hehdb and change out the 34ufufbf"
I have owned an e -bike for almost 2 years. It wasn't the most expensive nor the cheapest but enjoy it! I even find myself riding it to work occasionally! I don't think it's really necessary but when I charge my bike, I like to wait about an hour before connecting the charger to give the battery temperature a chance to equalize with room temperature.
I also like to plug the bike battery to the charger before plugging the charger to the outlet and STAY ALERT during the charging cycle! Just in case of an event! I may be over cautious but I want to protect my investment!
It so says to do that in the instructions Lol
That's exactly what I do too. I've also started charging the battery in the same room that I'm in so I can keep an eye on it. And as soon as it's done, I unplug it starting with the charger from the wall first, and then the battery. 👌
This is important factual information to put out. The incidents of battery fires in NYC received far more fear-mongering coverage than was necessary. As usual, those who can least afford to upgrade their equipment are the hardest hit by the ordinances.
That place is the largest city in the world right? So there's more of everything. More people, and more of everything people own. Dogs, toasters, radios, shaving razors, what have you. I think that's a definite factor in quantifying all this. Plus I think of the liberal press as usually having a liberal political angle. If it's something people own that's deemed as something that takes a grown man's responsible mindset to deal with, then they tend to be on the bandwagon to restrict it somehow. Look no farther than gas stoves lately, and privately held guns always. Electric batteries are just another dangerous object to be regulated excessively or banned by the nanny state.
Instead of going on your conservative rant about NYC you could've realized the big issue with lithium fires in NYC is that the fires are impossible to extinguish and nearly everyone lives in an apartment sharing a singular building. The apartments are also often extremely small, therefore an ebike catching fire indoors anywhere in NYC could result in a literal disaster that could kill dozens of people. @@derekjolly3680
My Kalkhoff ebike uses a Bosch motor and battery. For the first time in its 6 year life, the battery management system prevented me from charging it until it had cooled down sufficiently. I had just completed a hard ride. Once the temp dropped the charging commenced. A good example of what you mentioned up front - always use the manufacturer's charger and choose a bike in which the battery has a good battery management system that can provide the data needed, ie, temperature. Thanks for another good vid.
The internal resistance in the cells increases with age therefore old batteries run hotter
I always unplug the charger when not in use. There are electronics inside the charger that control how much voltage to feed the batteries and when to turn the charger on and off. These electronics have to recycle or reboot like your phone, cable box, etc. Also, follow the manufacturer’s guidelines. For example, Nanrobot says to connect the scooter first then plug the charger in.
I now have my second e-bike, a specialized 5.0 vado (my other was the previous model). Im very happy with her. 2 pieces of advice for people getting into e-bikes.
1. never buy the bike or batery second hand. => fire hazard
2. don't go cheap on brands you cannot spell...
you get what you pay for and if fire hazard or explosions are part of that ... just don't
Thank you for your channel! Finally got the yellow VELOTRIC Discover 2 Days ago. My cousin and I are riding to get into better shape. I’m closer to retirement and want to enjoy the outdoors more even though I don’t have the joints I had when I was younger. Rode it about 3 miles yesterday when I first got it and 30 miles today.
I’m in NYC and I’m very appreciative of this video! There is a ton of discrimination towards PEV owners in apartment buildings even if your bike is from a reputable brand. Lots of apartments in manhattan are banning e-bikes.
Tha'ts so true, I hope apartment management companies become more discerning.
We that live in a modern world with cell phones, power banks and a variety of devices deal with a possibility of a battery fire. Great counsel on using appropriate chargers etc. Do appreciate your contribution to greater good with your video's and give away-es... Thanks for what you do.
Thanks for the info on e-bike batteries. I fly electric powered rc airplanes and have seen a few lipo battery fires that happened when the rc airplane crashed and the battery was punctured. Covering the burning battery with dirt and then if possible wet the dirt with water seems to work fairly well to contain the fire and prevent it from maybe starting a brush fire.
This would make a good educational video
I have been very concerned about fires, my bike is just 4 feet away in my apartment all the time. This video has eased my mind, thank you!
You don't know if he knows what he's talking about 😅
he says in the video that he's built and worked on a thousand e-bikes over the years. He has written books about how to properly build lithium batteries and ebikes. The guy has a pretty good idea what he's talking about. @@WimpyWorkouts
@@WimpyWorkouts I agree. I don't want an E-bike anywhere near my house or on my property.
A ebike battery maintence article recommended Luna charger . I charge my battery about 1 or 2 hours after riding when battery level 1/2 . Charge at 1 amp to 80% . It was recommended for safer charging and longer battery life .
Hi, I watch ur videos almost everyday, I am here to say my neighbours' e bike caught on fire tonight, it's 2:09 am and I am finally back in my house with my own e bike. Not sure what exactly happened, but I think he was charging it and went out with his girlfriend. I was already awake so I tried to wake up my other neighbours and the police told us to leave the area, so I told him not without my e bike, so I took out mine and just looked at the fire while my building manager was asking me a whole bunch of questions about e bike fires. It's a good thing I watch tonnes of videos. The fire department is still here. Thanks again for making good videos :)
I've had a UL listed EBike for less than 2 weeks. Love it! Having used L-I batteries in cordless tools over the past 3 1/2 years, I treat then with care, charge at room temperature, never buy third party batteries or chargers. I've never had a problem.
I do of course keep it in the back of my mind as the reality is anything electronic and high energy batteries can overheat and fail... HOWEVER I agree that this is very far from an ebike issue and hate that the media is misdirecting the blame... As always GREAT Info...
I use a 52V LUNA charger n put my 30Ah triangle batteries in an ammo can when charging, just to contain any fire that might occur. Never had any issues charging, even with "inexpensive" batteries from DH Gate. One caution I do have: Eyeball the wires where they exit the battery for worn or frayed insulation! I found 2 batteries with frayed insulation that could easily have arced n started a nasty fire between my legs. I clipped the connector off and used heat shrink n electrical tape to protect the cables n had no issues after that.
Vibration is the devil.
My ebike is still in shakedown mode.
I really need to pick up some high ampacity flexible wire and replace most of what I've done.
I used 10 gage stranded, but calling it flexible would be a lie.
Good info. It makes sense that it was the El cheapo ones that cause the problems.
Thanks for the reassurance. I had just ordered my first ebike. Right after, I changed upon a TH-cam video where a guy's $6000 bike becomes a yard-inferno! And I'm thinking "What have I done!?" Watching your video made me feel way better. I had begun wondering if I should have cancelled my order.
Great safety considerations. When the lithium-air batteries arrives I hope they are or can be incorporated as replacements for current batteries.
I think some people get obsessed with fast quick charging, due to getting a charger that came initially with the e-vehicle having a painfully slow charge rate. I can understand of battery fires perhaps happening with these fast charging attempts.
I bought a triangle battery of 25 AH, which came with a slow as 2A charger. Which failed after 4 charging cycles of the battery. Looking up the battery cell specs the manufacturer stated a maximum 5A charge rate. So I got a 5A charger to stay within the battery parameters.
Needless to say, charging time improved and the battery did not get hot during charging. So... don't let the "more is better" mantra get the better of you. The grief isnt worth it, for the wanting "it now" mindset.
I currently own a seated scooter from VoroMotors. My battery is a 72v 42AH Molicel pack with smart BMS overheat and discharge protection you name it. Im still aware of charging my battery especially during the night im always hesitant to charge it while im sleeping (balance the cells overnight). When i know im not gonna ride it for a few days or a week i drain it down to 30-60% and store my scooter in my room. Learned a lot from this video appreciate you. 😊
I would say overall you demonstrated about E-bike fires and the causes of them catching fire really well.
Hi I brought a Totguard, 26"x4 fat tire folding, I watch your videos and in well informed. Thanks to your detailed teaching on ebikes. I use a small electric fan blowing directly for my battery 🔋 charger this keeps the charger a little cool during charging, I charge during the day where I can keep and eye on the charging time, again. Thank fir all your videos on safety,,I am a subscriber,,
My late uncle used to pay us kids to unbox pallet loads of goods and put UL Listed stickers on "goods" we were very busy. That was many decades ago.
Yes he was Italian and a great person.
...just sayin' cause it's true.
I have worked with Underwriter Laboratories for years. After something gets approved UL doesn’t put stickers on anything, what they do is allow companies to put their approval on products that have actually been approved. I know from personal experience that UL will go after companies & people that claim they are “UL Approved” when they are not, and the are relentless!
@Treasure Traveler not in this case.
In a bizarre twist,... years later, I was invited to the UL facility in Chicago's northern burbs to help them understand the safety of a system that I specialized in.
Don't believe it? Well, they made me wear safety glasses everywhere that wasn't the lobby.
It was pretty silly given all we did was discuss things.
Thanks for the important information. And kudos for setting up the bike giveaway.
Obviously, this is a really hot topic. I hope nobody gets fired up and flames you in the comments. Personally, I'm burning with desire for one of your books. I can do this all day.
another great video with lots of wonderful information
Regarding batteries on fire, or potentially igniting.
The primary threat is the high temperatures that multi-cell packs can generate. This can ignite other items. The secondary issue is the fumes. They are toxic, and potentially contaminate their surroundings.
There are safer battery chemistries but the potential for fire/fumes is the issue.
As to extinguishers, water does cool the process, and if nothing else is available it can keep temps down, but it also can spread the potential contamination far & wide.
Chemical extinguishers don’t reliably work, and can cause their own contamination problems.
A good choice would be one (two or more) CO2 extinguishers. These both cool, and starve the fire of oxygen, while not adding to the contamination situation.
But where to charge them?
Fireplaces (enclosed) or charcoal grills can contain heat, and prevent fire, but the don’t really address the contamination issue. Avoiding a larger fire is admirable, but dealing with the other issues should be planned for.
Charging in a fire resistant bag or case is a good start. However moving that battery out of a home, apartment or garage is better. Placing the battery/fire resistant container on a movable platform, like a metal cart, preferably with a fire resistant covering of cement board, cut to fit, and replaceable. To contain contaminated battery materials, and shield the owner from fire/fumes/explosion. Note: the fire, once put out may be, or eventually will be considered a contamination event. So the provision of easily removable fire resistant materials helps.
Lastly, borrowing a principal used with oil lamps the are burned indoors:
Never Leave A Lamp Burning “Unattended”.
Over time I’ve also backed up that rule with suitable fire/gas detectors, preferably with a remote alarm and alert function. Though if in person, a detector in the immediate location (on or attached) to the battery/cart, and a backup room mount detector would be best.
Obviously running a few fire drills to safely remove the cart from the dwelling or garage will help reduce panic. Don’t forget to have a fume/gas, full face mask hanging close by, along wit fire resistant coat/gloves/boots.
Yeah you really have a great Public Service going here with your videos very informative! My charging procedure is putting my battery into a fireproof bag inside of a steel can with a tight-fitting lid with three layers of 1000 degree temperature fireproof insulation that is used on stainless steel chimney liners. The three layers equals 3000 degrees protection so that if the battery does decide to short out and start burning the containment will prevent it from catching other things on fire. The insulation is on the bottom of the can and it's on the lid. The lid is held down with a cam Buckle strap around the can so that if they fire does break out the expansion of the gases won't blow the lid off the can then to top it all off I keep it on a cement floor on my patio outside of my house. And I never charge it over night I charge it during the day when I'm up and can monitor it from time to time. I know this is overkill and it couldn't really cost me much of anything at all and it gives me a lot of peace of mind just like insurance it's there when you need it.
I love your videos. An ebike would really help me get around.
If you *must* charge overnight, plug the charger into a timer, that way if your e-bike takes 4 hours to charge, that's all you charge it for, you can cut the number of hours where there's any risk considerably.
I do this even with my phone, the charger for that only gets power for an hour, rather than the whole night.
The classic NYC e-bike tragedy goes this way. Bring the battery inside your apartment, plug the battery in right next to the door & get trapped when the fire starts. Or plug it in and go out for the evening and it burns your place and through the floor below. I’m involved with the renovation of 2,400 NYCHA public housing apartments and hardly a week goes by without this occurring at one of the campuses…
I charge my battery on the balcony, if it catches fire it will be on the opposite side of the building from the exit, surrounded by concrete, and easily accessed by the fire department.
I wish they would get rid of the hazmat classification for LFP batteries. Those don't catch fire.
Thank you for this video. Great advice. Being retired this would make a great alternative for running errands than using a car.
Great info ! Thank you
Lithium ion 18650 does catch fire especially if you upgraded to a fast charger , LiFeP04 n LTO'S don't catch fire
Thanks for a much-needed video. Our household currently has 3 ebikes, all kept in the garage. We have a 2-stage smoke (detects both heat and smoke) detector, a CO2 detector and a WYSE security cam that calls my cell phone if it detects either type of alarm.
Our house rules are: never charge at night, and the person who is charging must keep doors open between them and the garage (which has an interior door).
Knock wood, we’ve used this method since 2015 with zero issues. Our ebikes are from Rad, Ride 1 Up, and Lectric.
PS: One of the bikes came with a User Manual that gave conflicting information with the Battery Manual: one said plug the charger into the wall first, the other said plug into the battery first to avoid sparks when plugging in. I looked online and most videos say to connect to the wall first. Do newer bikes include “spark protection” ?
Try and get fire insurance to include coverage , especially in a condo with aware HOA
You are absolutely correct with everything you are saying!
Thank you for the useful information on lithium ion fires and helping calm some of the fears that the news media is so great at spreading. Knowing how to deal with the unlikely situation is great information to have.
Thanks, Micah, great rundown on a sensible view to ebike safety.
Really appreciate the balanced view you presented about ebike fires. Thanks
❤❤❤ I love your videos man 🎉
charging in a clean fireplace right Before work commute .
Hey everyone, I just came across a new e-bike project that I wanted to share with you all. It's called freebeat Morph 2-in-1 e-Bike, and it seems quite revolutionary. One feature that really caught my attention is the ability to charge the bike when using it indoors. That's a game-changer! Plus, the bike's brushless 750W motor with 80Nm torque and a top speed of 20mph sounds super impressive. And with its 80mm front suspension and puncture-resistant fat tires, it can handle any terrain. The Morph eBike also offers a unique blend of fitness and technology, with the Smart Saddle Detection+ feature for performance insights. Let's support this project and see where it goes!
Love my velotric. The one thing ppl should know is that you have to let the battery warmup before charging. The charger won't charge it until it warms up
Do you really think the Chinese will not put the UL hologram on their batteries, just to get around the restrictions, as they will do with any other regulation.
An in-depth explanation well understood, thank you. Had some doubts about Lithiums and charging rates for some time. (I'm an Ex-nicad scale custom rc vehicle builder)
The clips of the off brand scooters igniting was good. I didn't know they were highly prone to that. They're so cheap sometimes it's tempting, but now I'll steer clear.
Appreciating your insights provided in terms of preventive & proactive action points as well as personal experience regarding e-bikes. Also, the community tips from the comment section discussions are pretty helpful. Looking forward!
Excellent information, thank you for your videos. I enjoy them all.
Another very useful video. Well done. Thanks
I have a Ride1Up 700. Three years old, plenty of charge cycles. I have no idea if my BMS is a crappy one. I just do preventive care by:
1) Discovering early how long the battery (all Samsung cells) takes to fully charge, then getting a wall timer to cut off the charger at that time interval. For mine, it's about 5 hours.
2) In my very wet environment, I used high qualty electrical tape and sealed up the opening at the bottom bracket where all the cables come out. The BMS connections are sealed, but they are visible up inside there. Some moisture probably won't do any harm, but jus sayin. I also taped around the periphery of the battery itself, which is the typical tilt -out type.
3) I do not remove the battery to charge it, thus reducing the chance of bending or kinking anything, such as the prongs that go up into the case. The battery weighs 12 pounds and can slip down hard if you lose your grip. Ikeepthe prongs lubed wit hdielectric grease to keep them from getting oxidized or corroded. With me, not much chance, but again - jus sayin.
4) To reduce battery vibrations, I have three heavy duty ZipTies around the battery trunk/down tube to keep it rigid. I may replace that with a thick compressible gasket in the future.
After 4000 miles the only thing that has failed are the built-in lights, which I have replaced with a more powerful bar mounted headlight and the usual red blinkies in back, white to the sides. The light failure isn't in the lights themselves, but in the controller, so, I assume vibrations are the culprit. Had to happen as some point, right?
Otherwise, great bike for the price.
Indeed, it is a legitimate concern that anyone could face the risk of their bicycle catching fire. It is imperative that manufacturers prioritize the safety of consumers by designing products, including bicycles and automobiles, with robust battery protection mechanisms. Failure to do so may result in diminished market demand due to the heightened risk of fire and personal harm.
Let your battery cool down after use before recharging.
Never, ever leave it unattended or on longer than necessary.
Use wifi camera & smoke detector.
Lay a welding mat on the floor where you park your bike.
Drape your bike under a fire blanket when charging.
Charge your battery inside a steel trash can with a fire blanket & self activating extinguisher.
A few things I utilize to help in case of a battery fire.
Wait for hours when it cooling off.
Breat video subject, thanks for your thoughtfulness
Love your videos, have watched most all of them.
It makes sense to not charge ebike's at night, and I will start charging during the day when I'm not riding it.
As you know, I built my own bike, and it is still running well. I upgraded it from 2k watts to 3k watts. I going about 10 mph faster, but I never find the need to go that fast. It's pretty scary actually.
I would like to build a fat tire trike. And finally build my own battery for it using Vruzend connectors. I have 2 boxes, but will need more.
I haven't been able to restart the ebike journey I was planning, due to family issues, but I am still looking forward to it. Hope to see a few of your videos about ebike journeys.
Bless you Mikey in all your endeavors.
Always riding,
Mike Wiltse
I bought a Priority e-bike (petal assist) for my wife. I like it and wish I had one too.
I’m laughing super hard at the idea of a dude in NYC throwing his burning battery out of his high rise window onto a crowded sidewalk.
I don't even try to repair the batteries i build. If cells go bad, you will never be able to batch them with mixed cells. If the BMS goes dead, it is because there is bigger problems, such as shorted or very unbalanced cells. When you build your own battery pack(s), always start from scratch. Never use mixed-lot cells, common (charge/discharge) port BMS, or a cheap BMS w/o thermal protection sensors. Always install separate in-line fuses, for both charging (~5A) and discharging (~20A to 30A). Never build a battery that is too small for your needs. Add at least 1/3 more for headroom, so you don't over stress battery. And last, if you are unsure, then don't try. Buy a battery you know is safe.
I am Very close to 2000 miles on an Aventon Aventure. Bike has been great.
An aftermarket charger should not be a problem. Your charger is not a charger. It is a power supply. The charger is inside your battery. The BMS is the charger and it is inside the battery pack.
The amperage on the back of the power supply is the maximum amount of current the power supply can deliver. Electricity is *ALWAYS* "demand driven" You have your power supply connected to a 15 amp 120v outlet. That doesn't mean that items you plug into your wall are getting 15 amps. That is just the maximum current the wiring in your house can safely supply.
If the BMS maxes out at 2 amps, but your power supply says 4 amps, it just means your power supply will be operating at 50% of its capacity. The BMS will put a 2amp load on the supply. The supply will not "force" 4 amps down the throat of the charger.
Long story short quit work to take care of Mom with cancer kept promise to mom to take care of Dad after she passed when Dad passed try to go back to work discover I am agoraphobic with social anxiety and panic attacks I am getting an e-bike because I want to get in better shape get the vitamin d my doctor says I need and hopefully get better mentally I don't want to be like this I want to be like I was God bless you for doing the good that you're doing!!!!💖
Wow
I had not thought about a bike fire before!
(something new to consider)
I have a few rechargeable tools, & yes common sense helps a lot.
fires "might" happen while recharging - most likely old battery (?) a failed or incorrect charger :o
bad wiring of the tool (or Bike,car, a goofy (wrong) battery, incorrect connections (?)
all stuff to watch out for. [operate error is prolly the worst thing (so educate yourself And do things the best you can)
thank you for the great information!
we might not all have the best fire extinguisher close by. {that would be best & safest} BUT
water [or dirt/sand] will work as you said.
thank you.
thanks Micah, for your continued informative videos. i learn something new every time 🚴🏼
Nice color for a e-bike although yellow would probably look better but himiway is only black 😢
Thank you. I appreciate your clear and simple explanation.
That's helpful information. It's good to know that the probability of an electric bike fire is low.
I never charge my scooter without watching it. I will let it charge and check every half hour until i get close then i check sooner. I always check my battery and wires during charging to make sure they're not getting hot. i never charge right after riding (let it cool for at least 1 hour). Never charge overnight . I did research to find out my max charge amp and i never exceed it.
I padded my battery so it doesn't bang around in the scooter when riding.
When I buy a new scooter I always check the wires to make sure they're fat enough if they're not I replaced them with thicker wires that can handle higher amps.
(I have experience with this type of thing so not recommend it for those who do not have expertise in this type of thing)
Another important tip to avoid fires is to take good care of your battery. As batteries age, they build up resistance in the form of dendrites that can generate heat while charging and eventually short the cell and lead to thermal runaway. Don’t leave your battery at a high or low state of charge. In a perfect world, you would store at 50%, charge to 80% and discharge back to 50%. Your Battery would last longer than you.
No thanks
Gotta keep an eye on my battery and make sure to unplug it once it hits 75%. The charger tends to want to push it above what I need it to do.
Thank you.
I haven't heard too many comments regarding the potential risks due to overcharging a lithium battery. I hear overcharging any battery, even in you phone or laptop, can shorten its life or, in some rare cases, cause a fire. I believe these e-bike manufacturers should have a built-in maintainer with the charger so that the charger will stop charging the battery once it reaches 100%. This would it be helpful not just to prevent potential fires but to also keep the battery healthier longer. Myself? I pull the plug on my devices once they reach between 85-95% charge.
I wish more manufacturers offered a LiFePo battery option, if only for the peace of mind. More and more landlords, and even cities, are restricting bringing Lithium-Ion batteries inside. But they MAY allow LiFePo batteries. Personally, I would be willing to accept less power and ride time for the added safety margin, and decreased likelihood of some landlord complaining. Not all of us have houses with garages and driveways.
I lived for 6 years in my minivan, with a BattleBorn LifePo battery under my head, in the Arizona desert, and in the frozen early spring in Washington. I always felt completely safe. Partly because of the chemistry, partly because of the high-quality battery management system built into the battery, and partly because of the high-quality, brand-name charge controller that I used to supply power to the battery.
Question, live in Arizona and the temp yesterday was 111, accidently left my lectric XP 3.0 long range battery ebike in the sun all day. Too say the least there wasn't a part of the ebike that wasn't hot. End of day brought it in the house to cool down. Now the question, given the above scenario, what effect(s) does this outside heat have on the battery sitting in the sun and also riding in the sun? First time viewer on your channel and subscribed. Great video
Thanks for your vid Micah. I'm so paranoid about potential lithium-ion fire & the charging process/BMS balancing. My charger has never worked like other chargers in that it didn't stay green when finishing charging, but would go back to red for a minute then green for a few seconds then back to red ad infinitum. After 600 miles they replaced the charger & now it seems to work like all other chargers I've ever used, after I finished with their balancing instructions by letting it drain to 20% then charge for at least 12 hours until the red light starts blinking, indicating balancing. I did that 3 times per tech request. And now my battery gets 10 more miles of throttle only use, bringing it to 30 miles total of throttle only use on a full charge, which is plenty fine with me. I lived in fear of battery fire for the whole time it took to put 600 miles on the bike because I didn't trust the tech saying the back & forth from green to red was normal. I'm still shell shocked that it took so long to resolve with a charger replacement, when it should've happened on the first time I reported it.
Imo the charger going from green to red and back would indicate balancing is happening, since it will accept a small amount of energy again when the cells have been balanced. This process will go on until it's fully balanced and fully charged.
I keep mine in a metal garbage can drilled a small hole in top to put charge wire in to charge & store
thank you this is a great video of advice for peace of mind.
My battery requires a 43.8v charger because it is using lfp cells. I'm still using a 42v charger for long life because it never charges above 80%. I realized later that it can also prevent over charging. 😊
Very inexpensive and flexible trivets can be purchased from multiple sources. If you need to charge your battery, make sure your AC Charger unit and battery are on surfaces and in spaces where if things go wrong, damage will be minimized. Particularly if you know that like mine, your AC charger gets real hot under normal charging conditions.
I know you like the mango Nomad but the but the discovery Indigo Gray with black battery looks sharp.
I don't yet have an ebike I've been investigating trying to build one on the cheap side. I have stage 4 cancer so I can't go far on my mountain bike I made a basket for my little dog she loves it I love your videos if you could help me out finding cheap safe components or put me in your drawing that would be awesome thank you I'll keep watching your awesome channel
Mike
:D! Great video, I live in NY and many businesses are cracking down on allowing ebikes inside their building.
I would add a note to the charging when you get home, I wouldn't charge it immediately, but rather give it 30mins, especially in summer when it's hot out.
And check you chargers output. I may not be to spec, I've had one charger that would overcharge.
But in general I would agree, batteries are safe, especially the cylindrical cells from the main companies. I however will never have lipos bigger than the laptops battery in the house. Having a 500wh battery swell up and leak electrolyte was scary. And now I've got a 1.5kwh battery.
I love your videos. ❤
hope you do more bike to e-bike transformation videos, there're so many brands and parts online, i recently bought a bike for exercising, i want to turn it into an e-bike and i'm considering what to buy
It seems to be a real issue. But then again we also have a gas stove top with open burners. When used without supervision these things cause fires too. Maybe its about supevision more than anything else
You're right! The media makes you think that sooner or later ALL E-bikes will explode! HAHAHA Thanks for your reassurance, Micah.
PS.......... loved your update on the E-truck. I recall watching you unwrap that load! Great to see it's still great.
My husband and I love our eBikes We bought a couple of cheap hurleys. We wasn't sure we'd even like e bikes. My husband just had a triple heart bypass.
Unlocking the speed controller (hacking) can also be a reason for fire due to the heat of the over worked battery
Just got a LiFePO4. Only tried it a couple of times but it charges and discharges without heat as far as I can tell. I have it in a carry box that goes into a "trunk" on the back of the ebike and there are no heat issues. The regular 18650 52v battery gets overheated in the same space. I was gonna cut in some vents into the trunk but with the LiFePO4 I may not need it. Also, the battery was half the cost, 33% more Amp hours and no overheating or flash fire issues (supposedly) and allegedly twice the charge cycles. Win/Win/Win/Win... Anybody else tried these out yet?
Thanks for sharing your experiences. LFP should be the way to go for micromobility manufacturers. More usable capacity (0-100% versus “babying” NMC between 20-80% to minimize capacity degradation), much lower likelihood of thermal runaway, lower cost per Wh. Not that shortcuts should be tolerated in BMS or casing, but it makes consequences of such lower.
it is not all win, win, win. they are heavier, bulkier, and lower voltage per cell. Which puts their watt/ kilogram at a lower value….that’s why they’re not used extensively on ebikes, where weight and space are primary concerns
I’d say not burning up your ebike and possibly your home as well are more important. Having a chemistry less prone to thermal runaway failures will help avoid fires and ultimately tighter regulations and outright bans.
Ebikes can easily carry any additional weight, especially when you factor in LFP cells can be used over their entire charge capacity, unlike NMC cells, there isn’t as much volume or mass difference as you’d think. There is a lot of available space in any frame design - there’s a lot of “negative space” in the overall “envelop”.
LFP cells are rated for about 5-7X the number of full charge cycles before they drop below 80% of their initial capacity than NMC cells, and for many users, a pack gets used up every 0.5-3 days of use, so having 2500-3500 versus 350-700 full charge cycles is a meaningful difference given the prices of reliable packs, especially for people who use their e-bikes for delivery work.
What I am worried about more than fires is finding a replacement battery once the original stops working. 2 Ebikes sitting in the garage with no battery packs. Anyone wants to buy them they are constructed like a tank.
so he is an expert and even he, has had a dangerous situation. lets get the battery issue fixed , for good!
Best advice on the internet.
Charging is less problematic than you think, aftermarket is ok and most scooters dont rely on "intelligent" chargers and chargers typically have only 2 leads. The scooters just need a voltage ABOVE the battery pack to allow for fully charging and balancing. As soon the BMS or better, dedicated charging circuit in the scooter knows the battery is full there is no more power delivery into the battery (and the charger typically turns "green"/off)
I put on a 10Ah battery up to 8A (or at 50V up to about 400W) into, you have to make sure the connectors and BMS also allows for that power! Note that the original charger took about 5-6 hours and had 2A, i even tried 8A and yes, it works! from 20% charge to 80% within 50 minutes, would have taken 4 hours at least with the 2A original power brick. The only thing which i am aware of... when possible i go for the 2A original charger to let the cells balance properly, which i dont typically do with fast charging, there i stop charging way below about 90% charge level to reduce harm a bit.
I have a DC DC converter mounted on the scooter as charger, it can be used for charging or using the scooters battery as variable 1000W, up to 100V 10A power supply.
It has also 2 modes "preset" via different resistors and switchable on the handlebar, once the 8A which is just used for driving uphill to decrease load on the scooter battery and another setting, giving about 3,5-4A, so 150-200W for charging on the go from tool batteries, from the 12V car battery or just basic charging at home from a 330W 28V DC Laptop power supply.
Having the charger, a small 1000W buck/boost converter always on the scooter and you just need a 12-60V DC power source to charge your scooter is awesome, tho at voltages below 15V its the best to pick 4A charging current otherwise the DC DC converter gets a bit overloaded with current on the input side and it needs to step up
Thank you.
Very useful information. I'll definitely consider lipo for my next purchase. Hopefully the price will come down a bit.
UL certification is good, but, it comes at a premium too.
My Dad always said, "Safety First Son."
Words to live by.
Thanks again.
Cincinnati, Ohio
@@DavidCooper-vh4nr i would avoid LiPos if possible, but from a performance standpoint, LiPos are just superior
You said "avoid lipo", but didn't say why.
They're definitely more expensive and I would hope it's UL certified.
No one seems to think that's important, but I sure do.
Thanks for your response.
Cincinnati, Ohio
@@DavidCooper-vh4nr LiPo thermal runaways are very dangerous, unlike single 18650 or 21650 cells in a package.
Also because of mechanical stress LiPos are to avoid in any electric vehicle
There is a reason you see LiPos more or less exclusively on DIY bikes etc.
Thanks for the information. Oh, I was reluctant to go out and consider purchasing a Evike due to the possibility of having it in my garage, and it be charging and catching on fire, as I sleep. The information gives me options Such as the charging boxes or bags that can be purchased two and close the battery as it charges. Thanks again.
Depends on the Battery pack build. I leaned a whole lot off these shows! Only use pure nickel strip, and great batteries! Accept no counterfeit.
Another great informative video. You were meant to do what you are doing because you do it so well. Thanks
Well, you know me Micha and no doubt saw the monster I built, with lipos no less, not once did I have issues with the batteries, no BMS is what did it though, I forgot to turn the bike off one night and heavily discharged the battery packs......
The big thing though is, I DID NOT try to reuse or or recharge the cells again, I repurposed some of the cells for another project but those cells that were under 2V got discharged and sent off to be recycled. Never once did I have any form of fire even pulling 100's of amps from those batteries. The big thing and where you open a door to fire is when a battery has been deeply discharged because the BMS does not work and you then go to recharge those batteries, it might work, you might get lucky, but you might also get very UN lucky......
As you also said, the wrong charger and or, trying to charge to quickly, regular li-ion cells only want to charge at 0.5C any higher and you cause permanent damage and degrade the lifespan of the cell, also, charging faster means more heat which further Increases the risk of fire........
Just be safe, do not take risks and you will most likely not run into issues, the media tends to look for sensation and hypes everything they can to feed the ratings monster, this is just another one of those classic knee jerk reactions that drive negative publicity toward ebikes....