Thank you for such a detailed and interesting story. I would like to add: I strongly recommend to make all connections between devices with cables only when these devices are turned off. This is especially true for HDMI connections. I learned this from a long experience with equipment, when, for example, the IEEE 1394 port (which is also called Firewire instantly burned up from touching a cable between two turned on devices.
Thank you for sharing ! I purchased a BlackMagic Converter Analog to SDI, but didn't know about the BNC and the RCA to 1/4. I'll pickup the Upscaler converter, and give my project a go. And I'll pray to find a Time Base Corrector in the near future :).
Quick question - "While waiting for for the Mini Converter UpDownCross, I tried going from the BlackMagic Converter Analog to SDI to a Micro Bidirectional SDI-HDMI, also by Blackmagic - into the NinjaV. No video appeared on the HDMI input on the Ninja V. So basically, should I wait till the Updowncross comes in? Or should I trouble shoot my BNC adaptors and Video cables ? Thanks for your time and consideration .
I haven't used the "Micro Bidirectional SDI-HDMI" device is, so I'm not sure the issue you're dealing with. You might have an issue with the manual switches on your Blackmagic analog to SDI converter. Make sure the switches are the correct output you want. Also, try a different switch pattern just in case, too, if you think you got the switches correct the first time.
@@VideoGizmology Thank you for the quick reply, I'll triple check the switches on the analog to SDI converter one last time, before waiting for the Upscaler converter and will report back.
@@Snailmale7 hello! this might sound very silly but I had the same problem and then I realised that my Blackmagic converter wasn’t connected to power lol - not sure if this will help but who knows, in my case I forgot about that simple thing. Now I'm waiting for my power supply to arrive haha
You can plug the digital8 cam into Mac via FireWire and plug vcr into digital8 cam using the av jack on the camera. Most cameras will pass the video through, you may need to turn on the setting in the camera.
I like this tutorial, reminds me of such back in the usenet days of the internet where one can get techie info without bombarded with sales and marketing schmuck. Obvious this tutorial is not for the casual user but you provide good advice and yet not get too deep like tech advice on places like BMD forums. The latter which is basically notes for experts for themselves in some very esoteric advice. Interesting about the time based corrector, I've digitize VHS tapes and simply accepted any dropouts. I have learned SDI is the best mode and I make use of that BMD analog to SDI converter. That UpDownCross converter looks very interesting as I have been looking for reliable method of converting HDMI into SDI. Maybe you can explain various modes such as composite, S-video, firewire, HDMI, SDI. I see why broadcasters go with SDI as it is a single coax with rugged BNC connectors and the mode does not have digital rights management nonsense. Where Firewire and HDMI can have issues.
An additional variation to the excellent workflow demonstrated in this video, if the source device and TBC have S-Video Out, is to use an S-Video 4 PIN to BNC splitter male cable coming from the source device into the TBC and Out to the Mini Analog to SDI BNC Y/B and Y/R inputs. Unlike the RCA Composite connection, this configuration sends the Luma and Chroma levels separately, providing a superior-quality picture of the Composite RCA connection.
Hi thank you for you comment which i find very intriguing and want to try this out so I've decided to dig even deeper into the rabbit hole. I use a Canon XL2 which sports an S-Video Out and i have the BM Analog to SDI, (still waiting on my BM UpDownCross to arrive). Couldn't find a TBC so I'm not too fussed about it. My question is skipping the S-Video to TBC and rather going; S-Video Out from device (Canon XL) using the S- Video to BNC Male splitter directly to the BM Analog to SDI Y/B and Y/R, can I still get this "superior-quality picture" you're talking about? Also could you please elaborate where the Male BNC cable color goes? for instance does white go to Y/B or is it red (probably figure this out as i test out with monitor) Aspiring DP here, very fond of mini DV and would like to do a modern take on it so your help will be very much appreciated. Thank you in Advance
Is it really worthwhile to record to such a heavy file? Does the signal being output from the string of recorders actually contain, for instance, 4:2:2 color info? Also, for upressing, de-interlacing, converting framerate etc, have you compared using this hardware chain vs. using software? Like Topaz AI, deinterlacing in an NLE, etc. *Just finished the end of the vid and I see your captured file was only 124mbps, guess I'm so used to huge files with 4K nowadays that I was just automatically assuming huge bitrates 😅
From my limited experience, uprez, de-interlacing, and frame rate conversion is always cleaner when doing it through hardware. I've tried software like Topaz and it's not the same, especially frame rate conversions done with software. You also need a very fast computer in order to process the conversions. When you're doing a huge bulk of digitizing, it ends up being faster, cleaner, and relatively cheaper, when you do it through hardware like I demonstrated. And yes, as you saw, the ProRes file is not that big, because it's only HD. There is 10-bit 4:2:2, but that's only there for easier editing, it doesn't actually give your analog video true 10-bit 4:2:2 colorspace.
Yes, when the maximum quality is required, especially for distribution, and for long time archive purposes, where the files are normally digitized in JPEG2000, (a lossless format) and ProRes 4.2.2 for distribution, as Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History, and other archives institution do it.
Yes and no. 4:2:2 color space is fine, even if it's a VHS source. Upscaling has a ton of uses, not the least of which is TH-cam's compression algorithms are far more kind to 4K than any other resolution. Since TH-cam is the sharing platform of choice it may be worth it. That said, the frame rate changes don't seem to make sense from an archival standpoint. For NTSC video, if you're looking to preserve the look and feel of video (namely 59.94 FPS) but want to convert it to a format playable on modern displays, deinterlacing the 59.94 fields per second (60i basically) to 60p will yield a far better result. Most cheap convertors render 30p, which doesn't move like the original video.
Very helpful video thank you. Have you had any experience with the Retrotink products? Their 5x and 4K products have inbuilt time code correction plus seem to be able to do configurable analog to digital transfer. I assume these could be an all in one alternative to the 2 black magic devices? Anyway my main question was regarding capture frame rates. Does this differ when up scaling a digitised PAL video versus NTSC or is frame rate only relevant to how you plan to edit the video and where it finally ends up? Also what would be a good alternate option to ProRes for video capture if you wanted to maintain quality and editing flexibility but cut down on file size? I am not doing pro film archives but want to be able to transfer from vhs to archive but also to create as high quality as possible edited movies for sharing with the family. While I have a decent amount of storage the amount of video I have to capture I would certainly run out quickly using ProRes. Any suggestions on a good compressed alternative to ProRes?
I do not have experience with the Retrotink products. RE: PAL vs NTSC, my emphasis on frame rate only matters if you are going to incorporate your analog video into a film project that has other footage in 23.98p or another frame rate. If you just want to archive, you don't necessarily need to worry about changing frame rates. RE: ProRes -- H.264/MP4 is fine for archiving. That has become a standard codec these days, so I feel like that format will be around for awhile. When making an MP4 file for archiving, I like to encode at a Constant Bitrate (CBR) around 24Mbps - 40Mbps, depending on how important that video is to you. That creates a fairly robust MP4 file quality. Not the same as ProRes, but it's not bad.
I believe the canon camcorders and digital cameras are compatible with digital lcd picture frames for low cost video slideshows that can be set to loop for ages.
Your video has been my inspiration to start digitalising all the tapes from my camcorder, thank you so so much. I got a question in regards to audio - my camera only has one audio output (I guess it's mono?), so, when it comes to plugging it into the Blackmagic Converter should I just choose either L or R? thank you :)
You can do one of two things: Option 1: pick either the L or R on the Blackmagic and you will get mono audio on either the L or R channel of your digitized video. Option 2: buy an RCA audio splitter that has one RCA male to two RCA male, then you can use both L and R. Even though this will still be a mono signal, you'll at least get it on both L/R channels on your digitized video. This is what I do, because I have a single mono RCA output only on my Hi8mm camcorder, too.
Your video is great. Thank for sharing. I have a setup with the BM analog to sdi converter and the UpdownCross BM with a Decklink Mini recorder 4k card, but I can't get a signal on the Media express. Do you have any idea what could be happening?
@@VideoGizmology yeeeaaahhh wish I would have gotten into this stuff 10 years ago. LOL Thankfully I got the Analog to SDI and the UpDownCross for free from my job. Stuff they don't use anymore. So I'll be trying this setup very soon!
Thank you for this! I have a couple questions: 1. Why use the RCA Y instead of SVideo? 2. What would the quality and file properties be like if you went VCR -> SVideo -> hi8 cam (ex Sony DCR-TRV320) -> Firewire to usb -> pc/mac? 3. What kind of delay / lag would you experience in the setup in 2 or in your full TBC setup? 4. Could the lag be avoided by splitting the signal on the first converter and sending that to a monitor to play games on?
1. I could have used the S Video out on my VHS player. No reason why I didn't except for demonstration purposes because some players and camcorders will have S Video out, but most will have RCA Y out. So my demo was for the most common output for analog video players. 2. I'm not sure if Hi8mm camcorders can be used in the way you're suggesting as a pass-through deck/converter. I don't know where to find this info, but in order to use the Firewire output, you have to record to tape first, then output to Firewire, so that means you will degrade the quality by having to make a second analog copy before digitizing. This also doesn't make sense, because you'd be better off using an analog to USB converter and going directly from your VCR to computer and you'd get as good or better quality. But this won't uprez or change the frame rate of your footage, which is the main point of my video. To uprez and frame rate change. 3. Since I don't think setup 2 would work, I cannot answer this one. 4. this question sounds like it's asking for #2 as well, so I cannot answer this one either.
@@VideoGizmology on this topic, I have the same blackmagic gear you're referencing. How would I get s-video to the BNC inputs on the analog to sdi converter? I purchased an s-video to bnc Y adapter with chroma/luma split, but it seems to have issues with frame drops. Curious if you've tried this and may have any tips. I'd love to skip the time consuming deinterlace steps I currently do with virtualdub/staxrip capture.
It might be an issue with the S-video adapter you are using. I have not tried S-video with the setup I showed in this video. However, I purchased and tested another analog-to-digital product in a video that I'll be publishing this week, that has an S-video input, so you wouldn't need an S-video to BNC adapter. If you use that product, you can skip the Analog to SDI mini converter and go directly from your VCR/Camera/TBC to this analog-to-digital converter to the Black Magic UpDownCross HD convertor to your computer.
@@VideoGizmology thanks for the quick reply! This was a case of unplug everything and plug it back in. I just retried after isolating the issue to the analog to sdi box, and after reconnecting everything is working as expected. Maybe I just needed to reach out. I’ll keep an eye out for the updated video. 🙏
Great overview, nice to see this process well documented end to end in a short video. One more question: why 23.98 fps instead of 29.97 or 59.94p? I've noticed most deinterlacing in post (QTGMC) tends to output 59.94p after the process. Are there advantages you're aware of using 23.98?
Thanks! I only suggested 23.98p if you are making a documentary that needs to combine archival footage with newly shot footage, which is typically in 23.98 frame rate. If your video project is in 29.97p or 59.94p, then use those frame rates. Sorry if I didn't make that point clear.
@@VideoGizmology Why not keep it at the native frame rate and covert it afterwards in software? Is there something that the hardware does that software can't when changing frame rate?
In my experience when using more professional equipment like the Blackmagic converters, frame rate conversion using hardware is more accurate and reliable than converting using software. I can't explain the engineering behind this, I'm just judging from my own results. Now you may have your own experience with software converters and may claim you've never had a problem. Then good for you and continue doing what you're doing. I'm only speaking from my experience of converting hundreds of video files. There might be a new software or upgraded AI technology that has improved upon software frame rate converters, but everything available right now hasn't been better than hardware, at least for me.
@@VideoGizmology thanks for your response. Your video was incredibly helpful. You've put the hard work in already so we don't have to! I am a video editor using Premiere. I guess what I was really wondering is what happens when you modify the clips frame rate in premiere? My initial feeling was, why not keep the frame rate as it was shot, then choose later depending on the project.I shall do some experimenting as well when I get some equipment.
When I have 120fps or 60fps and I want slow motion. Premiere has a great tool to modify the frame rate as 29.97p or 23.98p and works great. But if we're talking about digitizing 60i analog video, then Premiere doesn't always handle that consistently well. Depending on your final output, Premiere has to drop, add, or blend frames and it doesn't really tell you what it's doing and how to manually adjust it. For short projects, this might not be a problem, but if you work on long projects, then you'll start to run into performance issues. Also, if you have dual sound, you may run into sync sound issues.
Hello again! I have connected my Sony CCD-TRV27E camcorder to my BM Video Assist 3G using a BM Analog to SDI Mini Converter and a SDI to HDMI Micro Converter. When I open the camera as if I was going to film live basically, it does appear on the monitor, which is great. But when I open the playback on the camcorder and press play, on the Video Assist the format changes to "NO FORMAT" plus a black screen, when it was 625i50 PAL just a second ago when the camera was open. I've been trying to understand where could this come from but I don't know what else could I do. It's a shame as I wanted to capture some videos that I already did with the camcorder into the Video Assist to digitalise them. Any help is incredibly appreciated, and please feel free to ask any questions. I really hope I can find a solution, it might be something I'm missing/doing wrong. Many many thanks :-)
I've never used a BM Video Assist, so I'm not knowing what your issue is, I would try the following: Keep everything the same, but use a different capture device, instead of your BM Video Assist, try something else, like going into your computer and capture on Quicktime or OBS. If that same problem isn't there, then there must be a setting issue with your BM Video Assist that you'll have to figure out. However, if the same problem happens on a different capture device, then check the dip switch settings on your BM Analog to SDI Converter and repeat this process. If that doesn't work, there might be an issue with your Sony camcorder or the tape you used. I had an issue once, where the internal recording of my Sony camcorder was messed up, so even though I recorded to a brand new Hi8mm tape, the recording was filled with glitches and I determined my Sony camcorder was the issue.
Great video, I have a question, the vixia hv40 has HDMI out, can you connect it to the cam link 4k direct to capture the footage from the mini dv cassette?
Yes, you can use the HDMI output with a Cam Link if you want to do it that way. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I was always told the Firewire output will give you better quality when digitizing versus the HDMI output on HDV camcorders.
@@VideoGizmology This option is more viable because I do not have the adapters to convert the firewire to usb-c. Or is there a way to do it, I work in windows and macOS environments. Thanks for answer :)
A firewire cable and usb-c adapter are easy to find at online retail stores, so if that's too much trouble then use HDMI. I've never done it with HDMI, but in theory, that should be fine.
Finally, someone talking about the Cannon HV 10/20/30/40 HD camcorders from the 2007ish era. i’ve googled myself silly trying to figure out how to get top quality 1080p files. I’m just gonna have to test it myself. Canon was delivering 1080p @24fps in a consumer camera early on. To do it, back when most consumers had old interlaced TVs, the file on tape was progressive segmented frame with pulldown.
Thank you for this very video in which you explained good how to get the highest quality.I have a question about the Analog to SDI converter. Which one do I need or are both for digitizing analog videos good enough?
I demonstrated different options to digitize video, so it depends on what you want to do. If you want to upconvert analog to HD and have frame rate control, you need to get both Blackmagic converters in this video. However, if you don't care about frame rate control, you can either get the analog to USB converter or the analog to HDMI converter with Elgato Cam Link.
Have you tried the Retro Tink 2X pro? its amazing to me, but I don't have a good HDMI capture card. I would prob set it up like, Source -> Retro Tink 2X pro -> upDownCross -> HDMI Capture card. i think the retro tink does the time frame fix. Well the tink X2 seems not to have time sync, the X5 seems to be the solution
Thanks for such a great, indepth video. One question I have is how effective would it be to find an old Sony or Panasonic DVD recorder and plug the sony video8 camera RCA cables into the component IN ports on the front of the dvd player, then out the back feed the HDMI into a capture card? I appreciate there are lots of dvd player models out there but does this 'method' stand any chance of handling the progressive scan and some degree of time base correction in one step, because if it does it might be a "halfway" method between the one you outlined in this video vs the av to hdmi switch method you mentioned at the beginning. Finally - if someone was using the av-to-hdmi converter method, is there anything at all we could do to minimise problems caused by not having a time base corrector (for those of us who can't find or afford one), or is it a case of everything needs to be done at the hardware level before even reaching your computer? Thanks again for such a great video - definiately one of the best I've found on this subject (and I have been researching this now for many months).
RE: using a DVD recorder/player -- I've never tried that, but in theory, it sounds like it could work as a regular pass-thru device method, however, I'm not sure it will help if your original analog tapes are damaged. RE: av-to-hdmi -- one of the main reasons why your analog tape will have tracking/glitches/artifacts issues is because that tape is damaged in some way. If you are only digitizing a few analog tapes that are not damaged, you might not even need a time base corrector. But if you are digitizing hundreds of tapes, you are more than likely to encounter some bad tapes. Another reason why you might have glitches while digitizing is the camcorder or video deck you are digitizing from has issues. There is a chance that if you use a different camcorder or video deck to play the tape back, that might fix the problems. It's the wild west when it comes to digitizing tapes on a budget, so you'll unfortunately have to do a lot of trial and error. I'm not an expert on digitizing, but I've been dealing with analog tape issues for years now as a documentary video editor, so this is just from my window of experience.
@@VideoGizmology Thanks for your reply! The reason I wonder if the DVD player method might work is that presumably the player would handle the progressive scan + upscale and my hope is it would stabalise the image a bit too. I've had really bad luck so far with those av-to-hdmi converters off amazon. Ordered and returned a few. The picture always looks dark and murky. In scenes with low lighting you can barely make out any details. I did see a better quality one in your other video but I'm based in the UK and sadly they're not available. I may try the dvd recorder as a pass through method. If it works out i'll come back and leave a comment in case it helps others.
I see that you have the Toshiba DVD/VHS player linked in the description. Why do you recommend that specific one? Thanks for all the info as well. It has been helpful.
I know you wanted your 23.98, just a reminder that NTSC is(was) 29.97. Scale is a matter of preference too, but I'm not a fan of pillar boxing a 16:9 frame to maintain the 4:3 aspect of the video. That being said, I'm not archiving anything so I prefer 30fps progressive. If I had your gear I'd try 720p60 on the up-convertor and then apply the appropriate PAR to get a 4:3 image out of it.
True. If you just wanted to archive the analog video, you should do it at 29.97p or 60p to keep the frame rate similar. But for documentaries or narratives that are filmed in 23.98p, you'd want to change the frame rate of the analog video for that.
I am not familiar with the DeckLink Mini Recorder HD, but if it's an I/O device, it should work, I just don't know if it's better. So if you already have that DeckLink, you should be fine, but if you want to buy one or the other, I can only recommend the Elgato CamLink 4K because that is what I have experience with.
Thank you for the informative video. I have the same setup, except I’m using Atomos SUMO19 and Leitch DSP-290 TBC/Synchronizer as the capture device. However, while the picture in the NTSC monitors with OverScan off looks without bottom and top horizontal band lines in the active areas of the image, the recorded picture in the SUMO19 does have a 3 to 4 % of these active lines. The Sumo doesn’t have an overscan feature to hide this side effect. That will force me to fix the side effects by using blankings in post-production in Davinci Resolve. It’s an extra step I’m trying to avoid because of the number of videos to be transferred. Do you have a solution for this anomaly in the Atomos you are using as the capture device? Keep up the excellent work!
I haven't had the issue you are dealing with yet with my experience, so I unfortunately cannot offer a solution besides trying alternative capture devices. I sometimes have to use different capture devices because I will get technical glitches on one device, but it works fine on others.
Excellent video. Thorough and clear. I appreciate it. I had a question and I’m sorry if this is a repeat, but I didn’t see it explicitly. If I went from your LVY method to the Cam link, is a time-based corrector still required? Might I still have glitches that you mentioned if I went with this method and some of the tapes are older? Also, while I know you can’t control the frame rate with this method, wouldn’t the output handle the deinterlacing and be progressive since it’s coming out as HD or is it just uprezing the 60i video into interlaced HD, which means I’d have those artifacts and lines? Some of the methods I’ve seen on TH-cam suggest outputting to 60P and then handling frame conversions later. I’m not an expert on this, but I am about to start digitizing some a few videos for an editing project, and I don’t want to make the wrong selections. I know with most editing software, it will handle videos with different frame rates these days, but it would also help to have it consistent. I just want to avoid the interlaced video in my project. Those lines always bother me.
A time base corrector is not required for digitizing, because there are a lot of analog tapes that do not have any technical issues. BUT....when you encounter a tape with lots of issues, a time base corrector might be the only way to fix the glitches. It's unfortunately an unpredictable gamble when it comes to old analog tapes. You might get lucky and have no problems, but the more tapes you digitize, your odds increase with getting a bad tape. Using the LVY to Cam Link method will not make your digitized footage progressive. It passes the frame rate through the chain, so whatever frame rate your source footage is, that is what your digitized video will be. You need a hardware device, like the Blackmagic converters, to change the frame rate. It is true that you can capture in 60p and change the frame rate and interlacing later with software, so if you want to go with that technique, that should work. The biggest con with software conversion is that it is not always consistent and you might have to do hours of trial and error just to figure out the right software settings to give you the best conversion. And just because you found the perfect settings for one clip, doesn't mean you can do a batch conversion of a bunch of videos. Not all the videos will convert the same way, so you sometimes have to make specific settings for each video. So given all that inconsistency, I've personally found it easier to do the conversion in real time with hardware, like I showed in this video. For smaller video projects for social media, I don't think frame rates and interlacing is a big issue and wouldn't worry about getting the conversions. However, when you work on bigger films or documentaries and you need to collaborate with other post production facilities, colorists, sound designers, VFX artists, etc., it is very important to get your analog conversions correct, because you will cause technical issues with your post production people.
@@VideoGizmology Thanks for the incredibly thorough reply. This all really helps. If I go with your two blackmagic suggestions, and knowing that I might get some glitches if I don’t get the time-based corrector, might I at least initially try to go from the VCR directly into those black magics to see if there are any issues? I just don’t see that timebase corrector in my budget unfortunately, at least at this time. But I’d like to try to see what kind of images I get by going from the VCR to the two blackmagics and directly to the cam link into my computer. Is that something worthy of an experiment? Also, can you tell me where to get those adapters? I don’t know what a B&C connector is and I guess I need the RCA video to B&C adapters and also the audio RCA’s to the quarter inch? Where did you pick those up? Amazon? Thanks again! As this is for an edited video, that will likely be blown up onto a larger screen, I agree with you that I need to get the highest quality within my budget.
Like I said in my previous comment about the Time Base Corrector -- you don't necessarily need one and I believe most people who just digitize a few tapes don't use them at all. Yes, this could cost a lot of money and it really sucks that no one makes a cheap option to buy, however, if you want the highest quality clean image, you need to use a Time Base Corrector. Also, the more tapes you digitize, the higher the chances of you encountering a tape that has glitches that only a Time Base Corrector can fix. Most of the products I covered in my video have Amazon links in the description section of this video. If you don't want to use those links, just copy the name of the product in my description and do a Google search to find them at other stores.
Great video. One question: I want capture my hi8 tapes without upscaling and deinterlacing. because I was told its better not to deinterlace. And I can´t see a benefit in upscaling if I just want to archive my videos. In this case I would not need the updowncross converter but a sdi to hdmi converter? and what other software for capturing could I use on a Mac if I would like to have more options? thx for help
@@VideoGizmology thx for replying. Nah I don’t like these cheap converters. I really want a crisp non deinterlaced master in the highest quality. Does the BM analog to dsi converter have build in tbc? And if yes how good is it compared to your external time base correction box?
I do not think the BM converter has built in tbc. If it does, I don't know where to confirm that information. If highest quality is your #1 concern, the best option is to purchase a tape deck on eBay, such as the Sony GV-D800, which is compatible with 8mm, Hi8mm, and Digital8 formats. Whenever I go to professional post production houses for tape transfers, they always use a professional tape deck. Or at least they used to.
Yes, they are called Digital8. It was the last format of Hi8mm before all the camera companies switched to MiniDV technology. Digital8 Camcorders are backwards compatible with Hi8mm, but you can't play Digital8 on older cameras. There might be some exceptions, but that's what I'm aware of right now.
@@VideoGizmology Digital8 only used the same type of tape as Hi8(which was analog), the previous Video8 or general "8mm" also used a very similar tape. Similarly VHS tapes had various formats recorded on them, VHS & S-VHS, and even HD analog(W-VHS) and HD digital(D-VHS) Digital8 was a *competitor* to MiniDV, though sony also made some MiniDV cameras. *Not* all Digital8 cameras are backwards compatible, those that are backwards compatible are significantly more valuable.
Captured vhs or any interlaced footage at 1080pi 60i is recognized as 1080pi 29.97i when imported into final cut pro so if you start with interlaced you stay interlaced through the whole process if you want your video to look correct when watching on a tv
yes, I agree if all you want to do is capture your VHS tapes and watch it on TV, then what you are saying is fine, but my video is about using the digitized footage for a documentary or video project that mixes other frame rates, codecs, and resolutions. I also edit in Premiere Pro and DaVinci for color grading.
Yes, you can upscale your digitized footage using software, such as Topaz, Apple Compressor, or Adobe Media Encoder. however, I don't think there are any available hardware devices that can uprez externally via firewire.
@@VideoGizmology A variety of very capable free software(on pc at least) is available that can deinterlace, upscale, apply filters etc, they probably have a bit more potential to improve quality, though there's typically a learning curve to get the best from them. Personally I wouldn't recommend AI upscaling like Topaz for VHS yet, I found normal scaling and filtering better at present, and without the possibility of creating parts of the image that weren't actually there as "AI" can do. Personally I quite like "handbrake" as it's still fairly easy, but gives a good image. There's other free software than can likely eek out a bit more quality.
Those cheap capture devices with usb to composite and s-video will only make your footage look worse than it actually is I would also recommend a s-vhs vcr because vhs video quality is all based on the the quality your vhs player
I unfortunately do not have sample footage of my digitized projects because most of them are copyrighted or personal client videos that I am not allowed to publicly show. However, if I ever have videos that I won't get easily flagged for, I will upload them.
In theory, yes. And if you are digitizing footage that was shot in the Digital8 format, you will have less need for a TBC device. The 8mm and Hi8mm are the kinds of tapes that may require a TBC.
@@VideoGizmology i am mainly using hi8 tapes in a digital 8 camcorder. would the camcorder TBC be just the same as the external one such as the one u have in this video?
I'm not sure if the camcorder TBC is better than the one I demonstrated in my video. If you are only digitizing a few Hi8mm tapes, you might not even need any TBC. I digitize hundreds of tapes from all kinds of sources, so I need the type of equipment in my video to maintain professional consistency.
It depends on the quality of the Hi8mm tape. If it is damaged, you'll need a time base corrector to even have a chance at digitizing it. If it's a perfect tape, then you don't need a time base corrector. The problem is that you don't know until you actually do it.
Hello, I'm interested in capturing my VHS tapes in 4K resolution using the same process. What equipment is necessary for this? While researching online, I found that the Blackmagic Teranex Mini SDI to HDMI 12G Converter can provide 4K resolution. Can it replace the UpDownCross HD Converter in this case? Please let me know what equipment I need and the process for capturing in that resolution. Thank you very much!
I am so frustrated!!! I have heard nothing but great things regarding TBC's, like even the AV Toolbox AVT-8710, and then someone says they are crap compared to their DVD Recorder's TBC-like functioning. I also heard great things about the Canopus advc 300. Then, someone will say something negative about it. I don't know what to use to digitize my VHS tapes! I also heard that buying a Philips DVD recorder DVDR3475 has a better TBC than the Panasonic DMR-ES15, which i bought because i read that they have a TBC-like functioning. I also hear that finding a firewire type of DVD recorder that will digitize tapes beautifully. It's so damn frustrating to find out which one is the concensus #1 best method to digitize tapes.
I sympathize with you on this, which is exactly why I'm doing so many videos about different digitizing methods. Because of the old technology that most consumers do not use anymore, it's very difficult to find any kind of standardized method of capturing analog video that is affordable for lower budgets. I haven't found the best solution yet that works for all the tapes I've had, but the method and equipment I outline in my video has worked the best for me so far.
Depends on how good it is. Try without it. I don't think the timebase correctors that were built into consumer players were as good as the external ones, but if you have no issues, then that's great.
*External TBCs (AVT-8710, Big Voodoo TBC10, TBC3000) ONLY cleans the signal. This is will prevent your capture card from dropping frames (giving you black frames). TBC10 and AVT-8710 have proc-amp controls (necessary to regulate saturation, sharpness, etc).* *Internal TBCs (from JVC prosumer VCRs - Victor HR-W5, Panasonic AG-1980P, Sony SVO 5800) cleans and stabilizes image.* *For capturing it is highly recommended to have both (VCR with built-in TBC + external TBC like Keywest TBC 10).*
It depends on the camcorder or analog deck I'm using. There are many models that do not offer S-Video output, so the more common option for people is regular composite.
This doesn't apply to everyone, but for me, I make documentaries that are filmed at 23.98p, so when I use archival footage in that same documentary, it is easier to digitize all my tapes to 23.98p to match the frame rate of my project so that my entire editing team and workflow doesn't encounter frame rate issues with sound design, color grading, or visual effects. When you work with multiple post production houses, it can sometimes be a problem to mix frame rates within a film for all your collaborators. Does that make sense?
Changing the original frame rate of the tape ensures compatibility with other footage with different frame rates in the same timeline of the NLE (non-linear editor).
@@VideoGizmology I'm using a Philips HDR 3700(which also has Firewire), but recently bought another panasonic DMR EZ27 for £5 in SH shop, I can pump it into my 4k capture box, and capture in 4k with obs, but cant tell the difference between 1080 it all looks the same, would be nice to see some better upscale maybe with AI, I also pass it through the edirol v-4 which does 4:3, I have the videonics Mixer but that doesnt like 16:9 shifts it to the left so there's black on the right side. Not sure if the Blackmagic does a better job, but the SDI ones seem useless as there's no S-VHS Y/C socket. Would be good if a Blu-Ray DVD-R had better upscaling but I aint tried that.
If you really want the highest quality from vhs you should get a cable that splits s-video into chroma/luma signals, the blackmagic converter you have supports it
If you were wanting the *best quality* for a documentary etc, I think it would be better to capture in it's native format, and then upscale, deinterlace, denoise, whatever sharpening etc filters you may like, crop off the "overscan"(blank or messy edges of the video signal that are typically never shown on TVs, but can be seen in captures such as here) etc on the computer after capture. It will also be cheaper, and almost certainly better quality(how much may vary) than using hardware. I'd definitely avoid frame rate conversion if possible. If importing it into a project that has to use a different frame rate, your software will almost certainly convert it as needed anyway (likewise the resolution etc, but other software might do it better). The written standard(albeit not always followed) for digital video capture of analog video also doesn't use square pixels(square pixels weren't a thing on CRT TVs), it's a weird concept but basically you end up with not quite 4:3 in your final video - if scaling in software this is easily accounted for though as you just set your final output resolution to suit. For particularly important archiving you'd also ideally keep an unaltered copy of the raw capture - still interlaced, same frame rate, not scaled, to allow potential improved AI upscaling etc in the future. Hardware scaling, deinterlacing, frame rate conversion is certainly more useful to just easily do it in real time, but is unlikely to gives the best quality. The TRV285E Digital8 model camcorder shown here doesn't support Video8/Hi8 playback from info I have - not all Digital8 models support playing analog tapes (somewhat confusingly Digital8 recordings can be made on Hi8 tapes as they're physically basically the same, so being able to play a tape labelled Hi8 doesn't necessarily mean it can play Hi8 recordings). A number of models that support analog tapes(maybe not so much in the UK due to taxes on anything that could act like a VCR) will also allow analog AV in as well as out, and allow you to convert VHS tapes or anything else via that connection & internally convert it to DV over firewire on the fly. These typically have no problems capturing anything other than rough tapes. All Digital8 cameras have firewire, unless there's an oddball model, as that was one of the main purposes of Digital8. The VHS(or S-VHS) VCR is the most important part, perhaps the most important common feature to get is a 'hifi' model, as the audio quality is far higher(though not all recordings will use hifi mode). A quick way to tell is just to see if it has stereo audio sockets as it's very rare for non-hifi models. The TBC here is reportedly a good model, but there's a number of other devices that can also give a stable image for tapes that are in good condition(rough tapes may need a real tbc) - such as some VCR + DVD *recorders* for example, as they digitize the signal internally, before converting back to analog for the outputs. Likewise some Digital8 & MiniDV cameras that support analog AV in to firewire passthrough, & other devices. Personally I've got a TBC that outputs digital video over SDI(instead of converting back to analog, then needing to be converted back to digital again for capture), which works well & is easy, though quality is still usually very similar(for a good tape) to capturing from VCR + DVD recorder output(so it's stable) to a good capture card. As an example, here's a VHS captured(audio wasn't hooked up) in the original interlaced resolution, with all deinterlacing, scaling etc done in software: th-cam.com/video/EIyUHkkyYJU/w-d-xo.html For the absolute highest quality, you'd want an S-VHS VCR with a builtin TBC(a different type, which can potentially improve image quality) "Lordsmurf"s suggested devices/guides on videohelp.com give a good outline of how to get the best captures.
Another idea: Plug your old camera on a modern TV, capture the video with a new camera/cellphone and the audio to a computer. Sincronize video and audio in edit.
Thank you for such a detailed and interesting story. I would like to add: I strongly recommend to make all connections between devices with cables only when these devices are turned off. This is especially true for HDMI connections. I learned this from a long experience with equipment, when, for example, the IEEE 1394 port (which is also called Firewire instantly burned up from touching a cable between two turned on devices.
Thank you for sharing ! I purchased a BlackMagic Converter Analog to SDI, but didn't know about the BNC and the RCA to 1/4. I'll pickup the Upscaler converter, and give my project a go. And I'll pray to find a Time Base Corrector in the near future :).
Quick question - "While waiting for for the Mini Converter UpDownCross, I tried going from the BlackMagic Converter Analog to SDI to a Micro Bidirectional SDI-HDMI, also by Blackmagic - into the NinjaV. No video appeared on the HDMI input on the Ninja V.
So basically, should I wait till the Updowncross comes in? Or should I trouble shoot my BNC adaptors and Video cables ?
Thanks for your time and consideration .
I haven't used the "Micro Bidirectional SDI-HDMI" device is, so I'm not sure the issue you're dealing with. You might have an issue with the manual switches on your Blackmagic analog to SDI converter. Make sure the switches are the correct output you want. Also, try a different switch pattern just in case, too, if you think you got the switches correct the first time.
@@VideoGizmology Thank you for the quick reply, I'll triple check the switches on the analog to SDI converter one last time, before waiting for the Upscaler converter and will report back.
@@Snailmale7 hello! this might sound very silly but I had the same problem and then I realised that my Blackmagic converter wasn’t connected to power lol - not sure if this will help but who knows, in my case I forgot about that simple thing. Now I'm waiting for my power supply to arrive haha
You can plug the digital8 cam into Mac via FireWire and plug vcr into digital8 cam using the av jack on the camera. Most cameras will pass the video through, you may need to turn on the setting in the camera.
I like this tutorial, reminds me of such back in the usenet days of the internet where one can get techie info without bombarded with sales and marketing schmuck. Obvious this tutorial is not for the casual user but you provide good advice and yet not get too deep like tech advice on places like BMD forums. The latter which is basically notes for experts for themselves in some very esoteric advice.
Interesting about the time based corrector, I've digitize VHS tapes and simply accepted any dropouts. I have learned SDI is the best mode and I make use of that BMD analog to SDI converter. That UpDownCross converter looks very interesting as I have been looking for reliable method of converting HDMI into SDI.
Maybe you can explain various modes such as composite, S-video, firewire, HDMI, SDI. I see why broadcasters go with SDI as it is a single coax with rugged BNC connectors and the mode does not have digital rights management nonsense. Where Firewire and HDMI can have issues.
An additional variation to the excellent workflow demonstrated in this video, if the source device and TBC have S-Video Out, is to use an S-Video 4 PIN to BNC splitter male cable coming from the source device into the TBC and Out to the Mini Analog to SDI BNC Y/B and Y/R inputs. Unlike the RCA Composite connection, this configuration sends the Luma and Chroma levels separately, providing a superior-quality picture of the Composite RCA connection.
Hi thank you for you comment which i find very intriguing and want to try this out so I've decided to dig even deeper into the rabbit hole. I use a Canon XL2 which sports an S-Video Out and i have the BM Analog to SDI, (still waiting on my BM UpDownCross to arrive). Couldn't find a TBC so I'm not too fussed about it. My question is skipping the S-Video to TBC and rather going; S-Video Out from device (Canon XL) using the S- Video to BNC Male splitter directly to the BM Analog to SDI Y/B and Y/R, can I still get this "superior-quality picture" you're talking about?
Also could you please elaborate where the Male BNC cable color goes? for instance does white go to Y/B or is it red (probably figure this out as i test out with monitor)
Aspiring DP here, very fond of mini DV and would like to do a modern take on it so your help will be very much appreciated. Thank you in Advance
Is it really worthwhile to record to such a heavy file? Does the signal being output from the string of recorders actually contain, for instance, 4:2:2 color info?
Also, for upressing, de-interlacing, converting framerate etc, have you compared using this hardware chain vs. using software? Like Topaz AI, deinterlacing in an NLE, etc.
*Just finished the end of the vid and I see your captured file was only 124mbps, guess I'm so used to huge files with 4K nowadays that I was just automatically assuming huge bitrates 😅
From my limited experience, uprez, de-interlacing, and frame rate conversion is always cleaner when doing it through hardware. I've tried software like Topaz and it's not the same, especially frame rate conversions done with software. You also need a very fast computer in order to process the conversions. When you're doing a huge bulk of digitizing, it ends up being faster, cleaner, and relatively cheaper, when you do it through hardware like I demonstrated.
And yes, as you saw, the ProRes file is not that big, because it's only HD. There is 10-bit 4:2:2, but that's only there for easier editing, it doesn't actually give your analog video true 10-bit 4:2:2 colorspace.
Yes, when the maximum quality is required, especially for distribution, and for long time archive purposes, where the files are normally digitized in JPEG2000, (a lossless format) and ProRes 4.2.2 for distribution, as Smithsonian National Museum of Natural History, and other archives institution do it.
Yes and no. 4:2:2 color space is fine, even if it's a VHS source. Upscaling has a ton of uses, not the least of which is TH-cam's compression algorithms are far more kind to 4K than any other resolution. Since TH-cam is the sharing platform of choice it may be worth it. That said, the frame rate changes don't seem to make sense from an archival standpoint. For NTSC video, if you're looking to preserve the look and feel of video (namely 59.94 FPS) but want to convert it to a format playable on modern displays, deinterlacing the 59.94 fields per second (60i basically) to 60p will yield a far better result. Most cheap convertors render 30p, which doesn't move like the original video.
Very helpful video thank you.
Have you had any experience with the Retrotink products? Their 5x and 4K products have inbuilt time code correction plus seem to be able to do configurable analog to digital transfer. I assume these could be an all in one alternative to the 2 black magic devices?
Anyway my main question was regarding capture frame rates. Does this differ when up scaling a digitised PAL video versus NTSC or is frame rate only relevant to how you plan to edit the video and where it finally ends up?
Also what would be a good alternate option to ProRes for video capture if you wanted to maintain quality and editing flexibility but cut down on file size?
I am not doing pro film archives but want to be able to transfer from vhs to archive but also to create as high quality as possible edited movies for sharing with the family.
While I have a decent amount of storage the amount of video I have to capture I would certainly run out quickly using ProRes. Any suggestions on a good compressed alternative to ProRes?
I do not have experience with the Retrotink products.
RE: PAL vs NTSC, my emphasis on frame rate only matters if you are going to incorporate your analog video into a film project that has other footage in 23.98p or another frame rate. If you just want to archive, you don't necessarily need to worry about changing frame rates.
RE: ProRes -- H.264/MP4 is fine for archiving. That has become a standard codec these days, so I feel like that format will be around for awhile. When making an MP4 file for archiving, I like to encode at a Constant Bitrate (CBR) around 24Mbps - 40Mbps, depending on how important that video is to you. That creates a fairly robust MP4 file quality. Not the same as ProRes, but it's not bad.
@@VideoGizmology thanks very much for the helpful reply
I believe the canon camcorders and digital cameras are compatible with digital lcd picture frames for low cost video slideshows that can be set to loop for ages.
Your video has been my inspiration to start digitalising all the tapes from my camcorder, thank you so so much. I got a question in regards to audio - my camera only has one audio output (I guess it's mono?), so, when it comes to plugging it into the Blackmagic Converter should I just choose either L or R? thank you :)
You can do one of two things:
Option 1: pick either the L or R on the Blackmagic and you will get mono audio on either the L or R channel of your digitized video.
Option 2: buy an RCA audio splitter that has one RCA male to two RCA male, then you can use both L and R. Even though this will still be a mono signal, you'll at least get it on both L/R channels on your digitized video. This is what I do, because I have a single mono RCA output only on my Hi8mm camcorder, too.
@@VideoGizmologythank you!
Your video is great. Thank for sharing. I have a setup with the BM analog to sdi converter and the UpdownCross BM with a Decklink Mini recorder 4k card, but I can't get a signal on the Media express. Do you have any idea what could be happening?
great video! I have that exact same time base corrector. found it on eBay and paid $1000 for it.
yikes! that's expensive.
@@VideoGizmology yeeeaaahhh wish I would have gotten into this stuff 10 years ago. LOL Thankfully I got the Analog to SDI and the UpDownCross for free from my job. Stuff they don't use anymore. So I'll be trying this setup very soon!
Most of these avt tbcs are faulty you need Google it and there was different models of this. So Google LordSmurf he is a PRO
Thank you for this! I have a couple questions:
1. Why use the RCA Y instead of SVideo?
2. What would the quality and file properties be like if you went VCR -> SVideo -> hi8 cam (ex Sony DCR-TRV320) -> Firewire to usb -> pc/mac?
3. What kind of delay / lag would you experience in the setup in 2 or in your full TBC setup?
4. Could the lag be avoided by splitting the signal on the first converter and sending that to a monitor to play games on?
1. I could have used the S Video out on my VHS player. No reason why I didn't except for demonstration purposes because some players and camcorders will have S Video out, but most will have RCA Y out. So my demo was for the most common output for analog video players.
2. I'm not sure if Hi8mm camcorders can be used in the way you're suggesting as a pass-through deck/converter. I don't know where to find this info, but in order to use the Firewire output, you have to record to tape first, then output to Firewire, so that means you will degrade the quality by having to make a second analog copy before digitizing. This also doesn't make sense, because you'd be better off using an analog to USB converter and going directly from your VCR to computer and you'd get as good or better quality. But this won't uprez or change the frame rate of your footage, which is the main point of my video. To uprez and frame rate change.
3. Since I don't think setup 2 would work, I cannot answer this one.
4. this question sounds like it's asking for #2 as well, so I cannot answer this one either.
@@VideoGizmology on this topic, I have the same blackmagic gear you're referencing. How would I get s-video to the BNC inputs on the analog to sdi converter? I purchased an s-video to bnc Y adapter with chroma/luma split, but it seems to have issues with frame drops. Curious if you've tried this and may have any tips. I'd love to skip the time consuming deinterlace steps I currently do with virtualdub/staxrip capture.
It might be an issue with the S-video adapter you are using. I have not tried S-video with the setup I showed in this video. However, I purchased and tested another analog-to-digital product in a video that I'll be publishing this week, that has an S-video input, so you wouldn't need an S-video to BNC adapter. If you use that product, you can skip the Analog to SDI mini converter and go directly from your VCR/Camera/TBC to this analog-to-digital converter to the Black Magic UpDownCross HD convertor to your computer.
@@VideoGizmology thanks for the quick reply! This was a case of unplug everything and plug it back in. I just retried after isolating the issue to the analog to sdi box, and after reconnecting everything is working as expected. Maybe I just needed to reach out.
I’ll keep an eye out for the updated video. 🙏
Here it is: th-cam.com/video/cj6tdIjlFEQ/w-d-xo.htmlsi=27TG7NUGDznx4jrl
Great overview, nice to see this process well documented end to end in a short video.
One more question: why 23.98 fps instead of 29.97 or 59.94p? I've noticed most deinterlacing in post (QTGMC) tends to output 59.94p after the process. Are there advantages you're aware of using 23.98?
Thanks! I only suggested 23.98p if you are making a documentary that needs to combine archival footage with newly shot footage, which is typically in 23.98 frame rate. If your video project is in 29.97p or 59.94p, then use those frame rates. Sorry if I didn't make that point clear.
@@VideoGizmology Why not keep it at the native frame rate and covert it afterwards in software? Is there something that the hardware does that software can't when changing frame rate?
In my experience when using more professional equipment like the Blackmagic converters, frame rate conversion using hardware is more accurate and reliable than converting using software. I can't explain the engineering behind this, I'm just judging from my own results.
Now you may have your own experience with software converters and may claim you've never had a problem. Then good for you and continue doing what you're doing. I'm only speaking from my experience of converting hundreds of video files. There might be a new software or upgraded AI technology that has improved upon software frame rate converters, but everything available right now hasn't been better than hardware, at least for me.
@@VideoGizmology thanks for your response. Your video was incredibly helpful. You've put the hard work in already so we don't have to! I am a video editor using Premiere. I guess what I was really wondering is what happens when you modify the clips frame rate in premiere? My initial feeling was, why not keep the frame rate as it was shot, then choose later depending on the project.I shall do some experimenting as well when I get some equipment.
When I have 120fps or 60fps and I want slow motion. Premiere has a great tool to modify the frame rate as 29.97p or 23.98p and works great. But if we're talking about digitizing 60i analog video, then Premiere doesn't always handle that consistently well. Depending on your final output, Premiere has to drop, add, or blend frames and it doesn't really tell you what it's doing and how to manually adjust it. For short projects, this might not be a problem, but if you work on long projects, then you'll start to run into performance issues. Also, if you have dual sound, you may run into sync sound issues.
Hello again! I have connected my Sony CCD-TRV27E camcorder to my BM Video Assist 3G using a BM Analog to SDI Mini Converter and a SDI to HDMI Micro Converter.
When I open the camera as if I was going to film live basically, it does appear on the monitor, which is great. But when I open the playback on the camcorder and press play, on the Video Assist the format changes to "NO FORMAT" plus a black screen, when it was 625i50 PAL just a second ago when the camera was open.
I've been trying to understand where could this come from but I don't know what else could I do. It's a shame as I wanted to capture some videos that I already did with the camcorder into the Video Assist to digitalise them.
Any help is incredibly appreciated, and please feel free to ask any questions. I really hope I can find a solution, it might be something I'm missing/doing wrong.
Many many thanks :-)
I've never used a BM Video Assist, so I'm not knowing what your issue is, I would try the following:
Keep everything the same, but use a different capture device, instead of your BM Video Assist, try something else, like going into your computer and capture on Quicktime or OBS. If that same problem isn't there, then there must be a setting issue with your BM Video Assist that you'll have to figure out.
However, if the same problem happens on a different capture device, then check the dip switch settings on your BM Analog to SDI Converter and repeat this process.
If that doesn't work, there might be an issue with your Sony camcorder or the tape you used. I had an issue once, where the internal recording of my Sony camcorder was messed up, so even though I recorded to a brand new Hi8mm tape, the recording was filled with glitches and I determined my Sony camcorder was the issue.
I have that time base corrector, they go for a lot of money now. I wanted to sale mine it’s like new and only used once lol. It’s great little unit.
How much are you asking for? Which unit do you have? Was it new when you bought it?
Great video, I have a question, the vixia hv40 has HDMI out, can you connect it to the cam link 4k direct to capture the footage from the mini dv cassette?
Yes, you can use the HDMI output with a Cam Link if you want to do it that way. I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I was always told the Firewire output will give you better quality when digitizing versus the HDMI output on HDV camcorders.
@@VideoGizmology This option is more viable because I do not have the adapters to convert the firewire to usb-c. Or is there a way to do it, I work in windows and macOS environments. Thanks for answer :)
A firewire cable and usb-c adapter are easy to find at online retail stores, so if that's too much trouble then use HDMI. I've never done it with HDMI, but in theory, that should be fine.
The HDV is interlaced and that is how it needs to be captured, FireWire, interlaced, 60i.
Finally, someone talking about the Cannon HV 10/20/30/40 HD camcorders from the 2007ish era. i’ve googled myself silly trying to figure out how to get top quality 1080p files. I’m just gonna have to test it myself.
Canon was delivering 1080p @24fps in a consumer camera early on.
To do it, back when most consumers had old interlaced TVs, the file on tape was progressive segmented frame with pulldown.
Thank you for this very video in which you explained good how to get the highest quality.I have a question about the Analog to SDI converter. Which one do I need or are both for digitizing analog videos good enough?
I demonstrated different options to digitize video, so it depends on what you want to do. If you want to upconvert analog to HD and have frame rate control, you need to get both Blackmagic converters in this video. However, if you don't care about frame rate control, you can either get the analog to USB converter or the analog to HDMI converter with Elgato Cam Link.
Hi mate, awesome video, does the clear click need aspect ratio correction?
no, the clear click only records in standard definition, not HD, so it will not stretch out the video and you don't need aspect ratio correction.
@@VideoGizmology cheers mate, have you tried the clear click 4k?
Not yet, but if you do, let me know how it is.
Have you tried the Retro Tink 2X pro? its amazing to me, but I don't have a good HDMI capture card. I would prob set it up like, Source -> Retro Tink 2X pro -> upDownCross -> HDMI Capture card. i think the retro tink does the time frame fix.
Well the tink X2 seems not to have time sync, the X5 seems to be the solution
Thanks for such a great, indepth video.
One question I have is how effective would it be to find an old Sony or Panasonic DVD recorder and plug the sony video8 camera RCA cables into the component IN ports on the front of the dvd player, then out the back feed the HDMI into a capture card?
I appreciate there are lots of dvd player models out there but does this 'method' stand any chance of handling the progressive scan and some degree of time base correction in one step, because if it does it might be a "halfway" method between the one you outlined in this video vs the av to hdmi switch method you mentioned at the beginning.
Finally - if someone was using the av-to-hdmi converter method, is there anything at all we could do to minimise problems caused by not having a time base corrector (for those of us who can't find or afford one), or is it a case of everything needs to be done at the hardware level before even reaching your computer?
Thanks again for such a great video - definiately one of the best I've found on this subject (and I have been researching this now for many months).
RE: using a DVD recorder/player -- I've never tried that, but in theory, it sounds like it could work as a regular pass-thru device method, however, I'm not sure it will help if your original analog tapes are damaged.
RE: av-to-hdmi -- one of the main reasons why your analog tape will have tracking/glitches/artifacts issues is because that tape is damaged in some way. If you are only digitizing a few analog tapes that are not damaged, you might not even need a time base corrector. But if you are digitizing hundreds of tapes, you are more than likely to encounter some bad tapes.
Another reason why you might have glitches while digitizing is the camcorder or video deck you are digitizing from has issues. There is a chance that if you use a different camcorder or video deck to play the tape back, that might fix the problems. It's the wild west when it comes to digitizing tapes on a budget, so you'll unfortunately have to do a lot of trial and error. I'm not an expert on digitizing, but I've been dealing with analog tape issues for years now as a documentary video editor, so this is just from my window of experience.
@@VideoGizmology Thanks for your reply! The reason I wonder if the DVD player method might work is that presumably the player would handle the progressive scan + upscale and my hope is it would stabalise the image a bit too.
I've had really bad luck so far with those av-to-hdmi converters off amazon. Ordered and returned a few. The picture always looks dark and murky. In scenes with low lighting you can barely make out any details.
I did see a better quality one in your other video but I'm based in the UK and sadly they're not available.
I may try the dvd recorder as a pass through method. If it works out i'll come back and leave a comment in case it helps others.
Yes, please do report back if you method works. Thanks!
@@VideoGizmology I wonder if this setup worked. Did you test this allready? Looking forward to your findings.
I see that you have the Toshiba DVD/VHS player linked in the description. Why do you recommend that specific one? Thanks for all the info as well. It has been helpful.
I recommend that Toshiba player because that is the model I used in this video.
I know you wanted your 23.98, just a reminder that NTSC is(was) 29.97. Scale is a matter of preference too, but I'm not a fan of pillar boxing a 16:9 frame to maintain the 4:3 aspect of the video.
That being said, I'm not archiving anything so I prefer 30fps progressive. If I had your gear I'd try 720p60 on the up-convertor and then apply the appropriate PAR to get a 4:3 image out of it.
True. If you just wanted to archive the analog video, you should do it at 29.97p or 60p to keep the frame rate similar. But for documentaries or narratives that are filmed in 23.98p, you'd want to change the frame rate of the analog video for that.
Thank you very very much :)
hello, great video. does the analogue to sdi convertor or the timebase corrector maintain the 4:3 or do you still need that other box?
The blackmagic converter boxes seem to maintain the 4:3 aspect ratio as far as my testing has gone.
Thanks for the video! Is the elgato cam link imperative for this setup? Can you go straight from the updown converter to computer via hdmi?
*Another Question* Would the DeckLink Mini Recorder HD give higher quality capture results than the elgato cam link? Thanks!
yes, you need the Elgato CamLink 4K or similar device in order to go from an HDMI source into your computer.
I am not familiar with the DeckLink Mini Recorder HD, but if it's an I/O device, it should work, I just don't know if it's better. So if you already have that DeckLink, you should be fine, but if you want to buy one or the other, I can only recommend the Elgato CamLink 4K because that is what I have experience with.
Thank you for the informative video.
I have the same setup, except I’m using Atomos SUMO19 and Leitch DSP-290 TBC/Synchronizer as the capture device. However, while the picture in the NTSC monitors with OverScan off looks without bottom and top horizontal band lines in the active areas of the image, the recorded picture in the SUMO19 does have a 3 to 4 % of these active lines. The Sumo doesn’t have an overscan feature to hide this side effect. That will force me to fix the side effects by using blankings in post-production in Davinci Resolve. It’s an extra step I’m trying to avoid because of the number of videos to be transferred. Do you have a solution for this anomaly in the Atomos you are using as the capture device?
Keep up the excellent work!
I haven't had the issue you are dealing with yet with my experience, so I unfortunately cannot offer a solution besides trying alternative capture devices. I sometimes have to use different capture devices because I will get technical glitches on one device, but it works fine on others.
@@VideoGizmology Thank you for the quick and helpful response. Fortunately, the issue doesn’t happen with all tapes.
Excellent video. Thorough and clear. I appreciate it. I had a question and I’m sorry if this is a repeat, but I didn’t see it explicitly. If I went from your LVY method to the Cam link, is a time-based corrector still required? Might I still have glitches that you mentioned if I went with this method and some of the tapes are older?
Also, while I know you can’t control the frame rate with this method, wouldn’t the output handle the deinterlacing and be progressive since it’s coming out as HD or is it just uprezing the 60i video into interlaced HD, which means I’d have those artifacts and lines?
Some of the methods I’ve seen on TH-cam suggest outputting to 60P and then handling frame conversions later. I’m not an expert on this, but I am about to start digitizing some a few videos for an editing project, and I don’t want to make the wrong selections. I know with most editing software, it will handle videos with different frame rates these days, but it would also help to have it consistent. I just want to avoid the interlaced video in my project. Those lines always bother me.
A time base corrector is not required for digitizing, because there are a lot of analog tapes that do not have any technical issues. BUT....when you encounter a tape with lots of issues, a time base corrector might be the only way to fix the glitches. It's unfortunately an unpredictable gamble when it comes to old analog tapes. You might get lucky and have no problems, but the more tapes you digitize, your odds increase with getting a bad tape.
Using the LVY to Cam Link method will not make your digitized footage progressive. It passes the frame rate through the chain, so whatever frame rate your source footage is, that is what your digitized video will be. You need a hardware device, like the Blackmagic converters, to change the frame rate.
It is true that you can capture in 60p and change the frame rate and interlacing later with software, so if you want to go with that technique, that should work. The biggest con with software conversion is that it is not always consistent and you might have to do hours of trial and error just to figure out the right software settings to give you the best conversion. And just because you found the perfect settings for one clip, doesn't mean you can do a batch conversion of a bunch of videos. Not all the videos will convert the same way, so you sometimes have to make specific settings for each video. So given all that inconsistency, I've personally found it easier to do the conversion in real time with hardware, like I showed in this video.
For smaller video projects for social media, I don't think frame rates and interlacing is a big issue and wouldn't worry about getting the conversions. However, when you work on bigger films or documentaries and you need to collaborate with other post production facilities, colorists, sound designers, VFX artists, etc., it is very important to get your analog conversions correct, because you will cause technical issues with your post production people.
@@VideoGizmology Thanks for the incredibly thorough reply. This all really helps. If I go with your two blackmagic suggestions, and knowing that I might get some glitches if I don’t get the time-based corrector, might I at least initially try to go from the VCR directly into those black magics to see if there are any issues? I just don’t see that timebase corrector in my budget unfortunately, at least at this time. But I’d like to try to see what kind of images I get by going from the VCR to the two blackmagics and directly to the cam link into my computer. Is that something worthy of an experiment?
Also, can you tell me where to get those adapters? I don’t know what a B&C connector is and I guess I need the RCA video to B&C adapters and also the audio RCA’s to the quarter inch? Where did you pick those up? Amazon? Thanks again! As this is for an edited video, that will likely be blown up onto a larger screen, I agree with you that I need to get the highest quality within my budget.
Like I said in my previous comment about the Time Base Corrector -- you don't necessarily need one and I believe most people who just digitize a few tapes don't use them at all. Yes, this could cost a lot of money and it really sucks that no one makes a cheap option to buy, however, if you want the highest quality clean image, you need to use a Time Base Corrector. Also, the more tapes you digitize, the higher the chances of you encountering a tape that has glitches that only a Time Base Corrector can fix.
Most of the products I covered in my video have Amazon links in the description section of this video. If you don't want to use those links, just copy the name of the product in my description and do a Google search to find them at other stores.
Great video. One question: I want capture my hi8 tapes without upscaling and deinterlacing. because I was told its better not to deinterlace. And I can´t see a benefit in upscaling if I just want to archive my videos. In this case I would not need the updowncross converter but a sdi to hdmi converter? and what other software for capturing could I use on a Mac if I would like to have more options? thx for help
If you want to do a straight capture, just use the analog to USB adapter and capture directly into your Mac using Quicktime or OBS.
@@VideoGizmology thx for replying. Nah I don’t like these cheap converters. I really want a crisp non deinterlaced master in the highest quality. Does the BM analog to dsi converter have build in tbc? And if yes how good is it compared to your external time base correction box?
I do not think the BM converter has built in tbc. If it does, I don't know where to confirm that information. If highest quality is your #1 concern, the best option is to purchase a tape deck on eBay, such as the Sony GV-D800, which is compatible with 8mm, Hi8mm, and Digital8 formats. Whenever I go to professional post production houses for tape transfers, they always use a professional tape deck. Or at least they used to.
This is superb video!! I have question, what do you mean by having High 8 tape and it is digital? Are there Digital and Analogue Hi8 tapes?
Yes, they are called Digital8. It was the last format of Hi8mm before all the camera companies switched to MiniDV technology. Digital8 Camcorders are backwards compatible with Hi8mm, but you can't play Digital8 on older cameras. There might be some exceptions, but that's what I'm aware of right now.
@@VideoGizmology Digital8 only used the same type of tape as Hi8(which was analog), the previous Video8 or general "8mm" also used a very similar tape.
Similarly VHS tapes had various formats recorded on them, VHS & S-VHS, and even HD analog(W-VHS) and HD digital(D-VHS)
Digital8 was a *competitor* to MiniDV, though sony also made some MiniDV cameras.
*Not* all Digital8 cameras are backwards compatible, those that are backwards compatible are significantly more valuable.
Never used any Blackmagic products but for what I do I haven't found it necessary
Captured vhs or any interlaced footage at 1080pi 60i is recognized as 1080pi 29.97i when imported into final cut pro so if you start with interlaced you stay interlaced through the whole process if you want your video to look correct when watching on a tv
yes, I agree if all you want to do is capture your VHS tapes and watch it on TV, then what you are saying is fine, but my video is about using the digitized footage for a documentary or video project that mixes other frame rates, codecs, and resolutions. I also edit in Premiere Pro and DaVinci for color grading.
no point of doing anything above 480p for vhs capture, you can't get information that's not there only repeat pixels
Thanks for the video! With the firewire setup, is there a way to enhance/upscale from digital 8 or miniDV?
Yes, you can upscale your digitized footage using software, such as Topaz, Apple Compressor, or Adobe Media Encoder. however, I don't think there are any available hardware devices that can uprez externally via firewire.
@@VideoGizmology A variety of very capable free software(on pc at least) is available that can deinterlace, upscale, apply filters etc, they probably have a bit more potential to improve quality, though there's typically a learning curve to get the best from them. Personally I wouldn't recommend AI upscaling like Topaz for VHS yet, I found normal scaling and filtering better at present, and without the possibility of creating parts of the image that weren't actually there as "AI" can do.
Personally I quite like "handbrake" as it's still fairly easy, but gives a good image. There's other free software than can likely eek out a bit more quality.
Those cheap capture devices with usb to composite and s-video will only make your footage look worse than it actually is I would also recommend a s-vhs vcr because vhs video quality is all based on the the quality your vhs player
Is this better than VHS duplicator (Domesday Duplicator)?
Do you have any sample footage up on your channel?
I unfortunately do not have sample footage of my digitized projects because most of them are copyrighted or personal client videos that I am not allowed to publicly show. However, if I ever have videos that I won't get easily flagged for, I will upload them.
@@VideoGizmology No worries, im just curious to see how the end product looks
@@VideoGizmology - Just go outside and record a 30 second clip and upload it.
Great video man
when it comes to the Digital8 sony camcorders that have inbuilt TBC such as CCD-TRV87E. would that mean an external TBC would not be needed?
In theory, yes. And if you are digitizing footage that was shot in the Digital8 format, you will have less need for a TBC device. The 8mm and Hi8mm are the kinds of tapes that may require a TBC.
@@VideoGizmology i am mainly using hi8 tapes in a digital 8 camcorder. would the camcorder TBC be just the same as the external one such as the one u have in this video?
I'm not sure if the camcorder TBC is better than the one I demonstrated in my video. If you are only digitizing a few Hi8mm tapes, you might not even need any TBC. I digitize hundreds of tapes from all kinds of sources, so I need the type of equipment in my video to maintain professional consistency.
Would the time base corrector be necessary for converting hi-8mm to digital? I want to convert some footage with upscale and upped frame rate.
It depends on the quality of the Hi8mm tape. If it is damaged, you'll need a time base corrector to even have a chance at digitizing it. If it's a perfect tape, then you don't need a time base corrector. The problem is that you don't know until you actually do it.
Hello, I'm interested in capturing my VHS tapes in 4K resolution using the same process. What equipment is necessary for this? While researching online, I found that the Blackmagic Teranex Mini SDI to HDMI 12G Converter can provide 4K resolution. Can it replace the UpDownCross HD Converter in this case? Please let me know what equipment I need and the process for capturing in that resolution.
Thank you very much!
DECIMATOR 12G-CROSS 4K HDMI/SDI Cross Converter with Scaling and Frame Rate Conversion
It's possible but it won't ever look like 4k quality
I am so frustrated!!! I have heard nothing but great things regarding TBC's, like even the AV Toolbox AVT-8710, and then someone says they are crap compared to their DVD Recorder's TBC-like functioning. I also heard great things about the Canopus advc 300. Then, someone will say something negative about it. I don't know what to use to digitize my VHS tapes! I also heard that buying a Philips DVD recorder DVDR3475 has a better TBC than the Panasonic DMR-ES15, which i bought because i read that they have a TBC-like functioning. I also hear that finding a firewire type of DVD recorder that will digitize tapes beautifully. It's so damn frustrating to find out which one is the concensus #1 best method to digitize tapes.
I sympathize with you on this, which is exactly why I'm doing so many videos about different digitizing methods. Because of the old technology that most consumers do not use anymore, it's very difficult to find any kind of standardized method of capturing analog video that is affordable for lower budgets. I haven't found the best solution yet that works for all the tapes I've had, but the method and equipment I outline in my video has worked the best for me so far.
I have a vhs recorder with a timebase corrector built in so will I still need one
Depends on how good it is. Try without it. I don't think the timebase correctors that were built into consumer players were as good as the external ones, but if you have no issues, then that's great.
*External TBCs (AVT-8710, Big Voodoo TBC10, TBC3000) ONLY cleans the signal. This is will prevent your capture card from dropping frames (giving you black frames). TBC10 and AVT-8710 have proc-amp controls (necessary to regulate saturation, sharpness, etc).*
*Internal TBCs (from JVC prosumer VCRs - Victor HR-W5, Panasonic AG-1980P, Sony SVO 5800) cleans and stabilizes image.*
*For capturing it is highly recommended to have both (VCR with built-in TBC + external TBC like Keywest TBC 10).*
@@StuckInDa90zcan you purchase decent TBC these days?
why didn't you use S-video in time base corrector since s videos are better quality.
It depends on the camcorder or analog deck I'm using. There are many models that do not offer S-Video output, so the more common option for people is regular composite.
NTSC standard is 29.97fps, why capture at 23.98fps at all?
This doesn't apply to everyone, but for me, I make documentaries that are filmed at 23.98p, so when I use archival footage in that same documentary, it is easier to digitize all my tapes to 23.98p to match the frame rate of my project so that my entire editing team and workflow doesn't encounter frame rate issues with sound design, color grading, or visual effects. When you work with multiple post production houses, it can sometimes be a problem to mix frame rates within a film for all your collaborators. Does that make sense?
Changing the original frame rate of the tape ensures compatibility with other footage with different frame rates in the same timeline of the NLE (non-linear editor).
Using a Firewire DV converter with IMovie would be super easy to use and offer good results.
Or just feed your S-VHS signal into a DVD recorder & out pops a HDMI signal
great idea. do you have any DVD recorder models that you've used yourself that your recommend?
@@VideoGizmology I'm using a Philips HDR 3700(which also has Firewire), but recently bought another panasonic DMR EZ27 for £5 in SH shop, I can pump it into my 4k capture box, and capture in 4k with obs, but cant tell the difference between 1080 it all looks the same, would be nice to see some better upscale maybe with AI, I also pass it through the edirol v-4 which does 4:3, I have the videonics Mixer but that doesnt like 16:9 shifts it to the left so there's black on the right side. Not sure if the Blackmagic does a better job, but the SDI ones seem useless as there's no S-VHS Y/C socket. Would be good if a Blu-Ray DVD-R had better upscaling but I aint tried that.
If you really want the highest quality from vhs you should get a cable that splits s-video into chroma/luma signals, the blackmagic converter you have supports it
If you were wanting the *best quality* for a documentary etc, I think it would be better to capture in it's native format, and then upscale, deinterlace, denoise, whatever sharpening etc filters you may like, crop off the "overscan"(blank or messy edges of the video signal that are typically never shown on TVs, but can be seen in captures such as here) etc on the computer after capture. It will also be cheaper, and almost certainly better quality(how much may vary) than using hardware. I'd definitely avoid frame rate conversion if possible. If importing it into a project that has to use a different frame rate, your software will almost certainly convert it as needed anyway (likewise the resolution etc, but other software might do it better).
The written standard(albeit not always followed) for digital video capture of analog video also doesn't use square pixels(square pixels weren't a thing on CRT TVs), it's a weird concept but basically you end up with not quite 4:3 in your final video - if scaling in software this is easily accounted for though as you just set your final output resolution to suit. For particularly important archiving you'd also ideally keep an unaltered copy of the raw capture - still interlaced, same frame rate, not scaled, to allow potential improved AI upscaling etc in the future.
Hardware scaling, deinterlacing, frame rate conversion is certainly more useful to just easily do it in real time, but is unlikely to gives the best quality.
The TRV285E Digital8 model camcorder shown here doesn't support Video8/Hi8 playback from info I have - not all Digital8 models support playing analog tapes (somewhat confusingly Digital8 recordings can be made on Hi8 tapes as they're physically basically the same, so being able to play a tape labelled Hi8 doesn't necessarily mean it can play Hi8 recordings). A number of models that support analog tapes(maybe not so much in the UK due to taxes on anything that could act like a VCR) will also allow analog AV in as well as out, and allow you to convert VHS tapes or anything else via that connection & internally convert it to DV over firewire on the fly. These typically have no problems capturing anything other than rough tapes.
All Digital8 cameras have firewire, unless there's an oddball model, as that was one of the main purposes of Digital8.
The VHS(or S-VHS) VCR is the most important part, perhaps the most important common feature to get is a 'hifi' model, as the audio quality is far higher(though not all recordings will use hifi mode). A quick way to tell is just to see if it has stereo audio sockets as it's very rare for non-hifi models.
The TBC here is reportedly a good model, but there's a number of other devices that can also give a stable image for tapes that are in good condition(rough tapes may need a real tbc) - such as some VCR + DVD *recorders* for example, as they digitize the signal internally, before converting back to analog for the outputs. Likewise some Digital8 & MiniDV cameras that support analog AV in to firewire passthrough, & other devices.
Personally I've got a TBC that outputs digital video over SDI(instead of converting back to analog, then needing to be converted back to digital again for capture), which works well & is easy, though quality is still usually very similar(for a good tape) to capturing from VCR + DVD recorder output(so it's stable) to a good capture card.
As an example, here's a VHS captured(audio wasn't hooked up) in the original interlaced resolution, with all deinterlacing, scaling etc done in software:
th-cam.com/video/EIyUHkkyYJU/w-d-xo.html
For the absolute highest quality, you'd want an S-VHS VCR with a builtin TBC(a different type, which can potentially improve image quality) "Lordsmurf"s suggested devices/guides on videohelp.com give a good outline of how to get the best captures.
150 megabites per second? 100 second video is 16 GB of ram at that data rate... BTW NTSC is 3:2, not 4:3. This is the #1 mistake people are making
NTSC is 4:3 aspect ratio, 3:2 pulldown is a frame rate conversion technique
Oh, FFS stop waving the gadgets around. It's really distracting! Just keep them flat on the table and focus the camera on them.
Thanks.
Another idea: Plug your old camera on a modern TV, capture the video with a new camera/cellphone and the audio to a computer. Sincronize video and audio in edit.
You'd be far better off using one of the devices he shows at the beginning.
@@iVTECInside Or pretty much anything else.
it will be junk