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In this video, Ben Witherington III here shares his reasons why he's not a Calvinist.
Thank u Dr Ben.
I've been a Nazarene all my life, and the more I study 5-point Calvinism as a mature adult, and Christian, is the more I see how its doctrines are an affront to the character of God.
Colossians 1:15-20
Exactly. Some say it’s a slander
John Calvin doesnt have a salvation testimony..
Im a 1 Point Calvinist
Wrong , your guy in the video doesn’t know the doctrine and you don’t either .. so go ahead believe the wrong idea .. John Calvin was fallible , he only taught what revealed to him in the scriptures , mostly preachers today have the wrong view of God
You would think the entire Bible whereby God is constantly interacting with humanity beseeching them to do what is right, to repent, and come back to Him would be a sign that God didn't choose beforehand for people to go to heaven or hell from the beginning of time. It really amazes me how people cherry-pick select verses and then completely miss the entire theme of the book.
Nobody taught me calvinism and arminianism.
But the arminian view is the logical and natural response to what you read in the Bible.
With calvinism you have to twist your mind and make a mockery of logic and reason that God gave us (God is a logical being, we are created in his image) in order to be able to see tulips everywhere.
What foolishness. You obviously do not know the Word of the Lord.
One instance I have seen of 'Calvinist logic' is this: "This is because if Christ takes away the sins of the world, God would be unjust if He punished the world again for the same sins Jesus took away. " Written by a Calvinist friend of mine.
Exactly. I never heard of this saying prior, but I've understood the same thing, that no one becomes a calvinist from reading the Bible. God's sovereignty, man's free choice, the punishment for choosing evil over good, the grace of God that chooses to intervene and give people the opportunity to be saved and the grace that pardons those that believe and chose Him as their Lord is pronounced deeply in the entire Bible old and new testament! You just can't miss it and have to be purposely blind.
Calvinism is rooted in Gnosticism and not the Bible, therefore it’s not possible to read and comprehend the Bible and then become a Calvinist. However, if one has a presuppositional religious belief or theology, then the Bible says whatever that person wants it to say.
@HeShallReign mmhhh even though I agree God has chosen people to be saved in Jesus. That quote is nonetheless not scripture.
I think we as humans dig too deeply. We will never fully understand God. All these different theologies causes unnecessary debates.
We should be spreading the Good News, witnessing and testifying about Jesus. We should be living righteous & acceptable lives, keeping God first out of the love and respect we have for Him.
We all will be held accountable for ourselves on that Day. The Bible clearly tells us what we should and should not do. And if there is ever a lack of understanding he advises us to come to Him for wisdom and understanding- not man. We shouldn't lean on our own knowledge which is why we need the Holy Spirit, who will lead & guide us into all truth.
The concern should be am I truly walking with Jesus? Have I been born again? Am I doing God's will?
💯👏💯👏💯👏 Amen & amen, my sister-in-Christ!
Neisha, the problem is that doctrine has effects. Bad doctrine will produce bad effects and good doctrine will produce good effects. I'll give an example. I attend a reformed church that teaches the five points of Calvinism. One Sunday I went up to the high school aged son of a friend of mine and asked him a question. My friend had told me that his son came to church every Sunday but didn't consider himself a Christian. So I asked him what he felt was keeping him from being a Christian. He said "God is". I asked him what he meant. He said, "Well, if I'm chosen from before the foundation of the world to be a Christian, then I'll become a Christian, and if not, then I won't. It isn't up to me, it's up to the decree of God.
His statement really bothered me. Because of it, and other crazy results that I've seen from the Calvinist doctrines, I've been reexamining them in light of Scripture.
I agree with you. But there are many unbibilical church doctrines out there which are extremely deceptive are misleading many. So, like many sisters & brothers led by the Spirit of truth, it is hard to sit still when you hear some of these doctrines.
I always tell people to repent, believe in & follow Jesus Christ alone, & be baptized of water & the Spirit (the Spirit will direct one in all truths). Living in righteousness (loving God & neighbor), & in the Spirit is really all one needs. And without which, many will fall for strange & unbibilcal church doctrines!
Thank you sir. I totally agree.
@Danny Murdach I agree. Most importantly, I have real spiritual experiences that consistent with the scriptures, including dreams, visions, even revelation about the things I never before understood in the scriptures. I have also been led by the Spirit to know something about to happen in my life before they happen & this happens so regularly.
Recently I was let go from my job for no reason at all. About 6 weeks before it happened, the Spirit impressed upon me to make a list of names & numbers of my coworkers who wanted to hear more about the gospel. And a couple of days before it happened, the Spirit impressed upon me to prepare myself & get ready because time was up....
The model of the story is that in accordance with calvinism of the above is made up experiences, the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with all of them. Man, that is dangerous teaching! I feel sorry for those following people like McArthur! I will stick with Christ, the Spirit, & scriptures....
As a Catholic I liked his presentation. I could sit with this man and find common ground.
Catholics is false doctrine
Arminianism has a lot of common ground with Catholicism, which is why it was so controversial in the 16th and 17th century. Indeed, the First English Civil War in part was a war between Arminians (Royalists) and Calvinists (Parliamentarians).
As an also Catholic myself, we Catholics can frequently find common ground with some Protestant teachings. They're not completely wrong nor are they completely right.
That makes sense since Arminianism has more in common with Roman Catholicism than Calvinism does. But I myself am a 4.5 point Calvinist (the L is half-true).
Blessings on you! You might find this video explaining how John Wesley qualified the Protestant perspective helpful: seedbed.com/the-five-solas-of-the-protestant-reformation/
After struggling with a lot of frustrating experiences with churches, this video is helping me to better understand why I struggled so much. I didn’t realize all of this pain I experienced was based in Calvinism.
Amen..
My heart aches for you but prays you find the Truth
That's a beautiful thing to hear someone say my friend..Biblical salvation is nothing like cavinism has told you..I'll help you any way possible as you transition out of calvinism into right doctrine.. May GOD bless you with the discernment you need to understand HIS word..
How in the world did Calvinism cause you pain? Would you please explain? Understanding the Sovereignty of God has brought me Joy and peace and a deeper love for God. Yes I'm a Calvinist.
@@randym.7238 first of all you don't know what the sovereignty of GOD is because you've made up your own definition of it . Concerning the other , it's none of your business. Take my humble but very serious advice and flee from the false teachings of calvinism that deems CHRIST dishonest and cruel . GOD bless
I love this! I’m not Methodist, but very much agree.
Romans 5:18, 11:32-36 my friend
Thank you Dr Witherington! Calvinism has crept into my Baptist Church via our senior pastor, most of our associate pastors & elders. When I joined this church in the early 90`s, there was no Calvinism preached but only the good news of Gods love for everyone and how anyone could believe in Christ`s death & resurrection and receive Gods gift of forgiveness of heaven of a new heart & a personal relationship with God, our Creator. You helped me realize why I am not a Calvinist. Yes, God is love. That what drew me to Him.
Leaving my church of 20 years due to it becoming authortive Calvinist in the preaching.
I’d highly suggest watching some of Leighton Flower’s videos as well! Love his stuff.
The Bible states Christians are chosen before the foundation of the world. Jesus's high prayer in John 17 stated by Jesus, I do not pray for the world , but for those the Father has given me.
Everything that happens in history has been decreed/Predestined before the world was created see Eph 1:11, Proverbs 16:33 and Amos 3:6. And yes even when terrible things happen, I know it's hard for some people to accept but look what happened when David sinned against God and one of Davids punishments was that God told him that he was going to use Davids own son to shame his Father by Absalom Absalom doing something immoral to his Fathers concubines in front of all of Israel, see 2 Samuel 12:11-12 God said "Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun." Notice how God said "I WILL DO THIS THING."That was fulfilled in 2 Samuel 16:21-22. Jesus did not die for every single person ever and Jesus didn't die to make people savable. He died to save his elect. In John 17:9 Jesus said that he does not pray for the world. The word world is used in different contexts, in that context he's talking about the non elect. In John 3:16 world means that he purchased people from every tribe, tongue and nation Rev 5:9 and for the children of God scattered abroad John 11:52. Some have been "long beforehand marked out for condemnation" Jude 4 and "appointed to doom." 1 Peter 2:8. About Pharaoh God said “For this VERY PURPOSE I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." Rom 9:17-18. Jesus said "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Matthew 11:25-27. So, 2 Pet 3:9 the "not willing that any should perish" if you read that letter in context, 2 Pet 1:1 says "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours." As far as salvation for all men verses, Paul was refuting the false notion of his time that God was only desiring to save just the Jews and 1 Tim 2:2 says to pray "for kings and all who are in authority" because as humans WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE ELECT ARE SO WE PRAY FOR EVERYONE! That's what it means in verse 4 by saying "all men." Amos 3:2 God said "of all the nations of the earth I have only known you." For centuries God passed over the majority of humankind because this verse isn't about knowledge it's about relationship. And it isn't because God foresaw Israel was more righteous then the other nations because sometimes Israel was more sinful then the pagan nations see 2 Kings 21:9. Only those who were predestined to be saved will be see Acts 13:48, Ephesians 1:4-5, Eph 1:11, Romans 9:11-23, John 6:37. 1 Samuel 3:14 God said “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.” That's Limited atonement.
It doesn’t matter if I understand every bit of Gods Word(the Bible).......what matters is that I BELIEVE every single word of the Bible is truth.....
If the Bible says “he died for all”.....or “whosoever will”.....then I believe it
If it says that “your name on the Lambs Book of Life before the foundations of the world”....or......”all that the Father has given unto me ....I will lose not one”........or that “the Elect of God shall not be deceived “....then I believe it
It doesn’t matter what I think or any other human thinks ......it only matter what He thinks.....and if it’s in His Holy Word then it true ........if you can’t seem to make the “pieces of the puzzle fit “.......or it seems contradictory....just leave it in Gods hands......go to Him in prayer .....ask Him by faith for a clearer understanding and in his own time of choosing ...He will reveal it to you
But to take one scripture and toss another one away just because it “doesn’t make sense”.....is probably one of the worst things you can do as a Christian
Revelation 13:8
King James Version
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Could it be that every name was written in the Book of Life until they get blotted out because of our choices?
Luke 10:20
Authorized (King James) Version
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Revelation 3:5-6
King James Version
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Calvinism is bogus. The Bible does not self-contradict. Just because many of us lack the ability to understand does not mean He contradicts Himself.
The problem with Calvinists is that they do not believe every word of the Bible is truth precisely because they do not understand every bit of God's Word.
@@cmk5724 I think, the worst problem with Calvinists is that they are not at all interested in understanding every bit of God's word. When confronted with questions they know they can't answer, they just say there's no need to know it.
@@molintsui7501 i think the worst problem of calvinism is that they founded their faith in Synod of Dort, and it's foundation is TULIP. Calvinist perverse the scripture to fit some cherry picked verses into T-U-L-I-P.
They have sacrifice the Characters of God in the Bible in defense of their unbiblical philosophy found in TULIP. A holy God, they made into a god who decrees man to sin.
An all-light Gof of no shadow of darkness they make into a monster who will send man to hell without a chance for his own pleasure and glory.
When i asked my mom what Calvinism is when i was 5 years old, i knew right away that Calvinism god is not the God of the Bible..
TULIP was not put forth by Jean Calvin. Hence using TULIP as an argument against Calvinism is based on a false premise. TULIP is an insufficient summation or attempt to codify Calvin's Augustinian theology [actually, an attempt to summarize conclusions arising from the 1618-1619 Synod of Dort]. Methodism and Arminus elevate man's choosing God over God choosing man. So who is actually Sovereign in that line of thinking? Is it not written "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated (Romans 9:13). That being said, I do enjoy Dr. Witherington's perspectives on Biblical exegesis. That's what makes practical or Biblical theology so important. Systems can lead to division and confusion. Attributes foreign to our LORD.
If I’m saved it’s God who was responsible for my salvation not my response or choice.
If I reject him, I’m responsible and will be held accountable in judgment.
I was without God. He sent Jesus. I did nothing!
I was without God. He sent someone to share the Gospel with me. I did nothing!
I was without God. His Word was placed in me by the messenger he sent! I did nothing!
I was without God. His Word started working in me until belief came alive in me. I did nothing.
I was without God. He sent his son. He sent his messenger. They planted the Word in me that produced belief. I did nothing! When Faith and Love came alive in me I couldn’t deny or reject anymore and I found obedience to love opening my mouth in confession of him.
Ex.
God brought my wife into my life and changed me. When she entered my life love came alive in me and I’ve never been the same. Her presence in my life changed my desires, I did nothing. I found something new in me, changing even my desires. Love for her transformed but when Jesus entered my life through the Gospel, his presence transformed me to a greater degree. I did nothing.
I just didn’t reject him or deny him anymore. It wasn’t a choice or a result of choosing to respond. I found my response to his presence irresistible.
I could have rejected him I guess but His Word, The Truth overpowered me, and He Captured my heart. I was defenseless.
He gets All the credit for my Salvation!
Those who reject him and deny the Truth are responsible and will be accountable for rejecting him.
I am NOT a Calvinist my friend. I don't hate God and I can't for the life of me understand why you would hate Him for not being what YOU think He should be like. If you truly believe Scripture you would understand that God chose us before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4 ESV Even as he chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love (notice BEFORE)
Jesus was the Lamb who was slain before the foundations of the world. Rev.13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And there are many more verses to support this. Does God learn? Is God omniscient, Having total knowledge; knowing everything. Having universal knowledge; knowing all things; infinitely knowing or wise? He most definitely is! Are His ways our ways? Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, Rom 9:21-22 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him. Did Judas have a choice to believe or was he the son of perdition? Judas was remorseful and hung himself..Do you think he was preordained to deceive Christ? Does God know what we are thinking and what we are going to ask Him before we even ask? Did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Didn't Pharaoh want to let the people of Israel go? I could go on and on but your heart has been hardened my friend. Either God IS Sovereign or He is NOT. I myself believe that He IS! The mind of a person plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps. Proverbs 16:9 Again, I am NOT a Calvinist. I just believe what the Word of God says. Scripture interprets Scripture.
Just wondering...Do you believe Woman can be Pastors? Do you believe transgender people are acceptable to God? Denying God's absolute Sovereignty as the all knowing, all powerful Creator that He is, is truly taking credit for what He has done and therefore is blasphemy! These issues are not Essential for Salvation, but denying His Omniscience regarding this is diminishing who He is. Being a scholar of God's Word, you are responsible in what you teach and are held to a higher standard for what you teach. The United Methodist Church has been misleading people for years! So Sad!
prevenient grace means "God gives everyone the opportunity to respond to the grace of God"
+Josh Washington We know what it means, where is it written in scripture. I'm always open to learning new things.
+mzimmerman12 Fair request. I don't think it is taught explicitly. It seems to me the whole argument between Calvinists and Arminians on free-will and divine sovereignty is based on imposing a theological grid on the scriptures that its authors did not think in terms of. What do you think?
I think, I try not to call it one doctrine or the other. I just try to believe what it says, and when it tells me that I can't come to Him without Him first drawing me, I believe it....although my human pride likes me to think I had something to do with it. I agree we have free will but scripture quite clearly spells out my will "No one is righteous, no not one,, no one seeks after God, I am dead in my sin...etc
I also believe that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But that doesn't negate the fact that you can't call unless He first calls you.
Any animosity I feel between the things I don't know, I am guessing God can figure it out. For me, I'm just trusting the scriptures and going with the fact that I was dead and He revived me, and I get none of the glory, He gets it all. That keeps me humble and less prideful over someone who hasn't believed because it was for the grace of God that I did.
If I had to choose a camp, I'd say the more I learn, the more I lean towards the Calvinist way of thinking. I think it is pretty well backed up by scripture if I don't interject my humanism into the equation.
@@mzimmerman12 were the 12 Apostles Calvinists???👌
Grew up Anglican, so even with all its dismal shortcomings now, at least the groundwork for basing all learning, belief, understanding on scripture was there. I attended many types of calvinistic churches but always found something cold and 'off' with their culture, so digging deeper now, I can see where it might, in reality probably emanates from. Thank you Seedbed and Ben Witherington for this channel and your teaching. It's great to see short concise summaries of these topics also - some are hours too long :)
I love this video, I visit it periodically. I've had some professors who've tried to ease those 5 points into student's psyches. I'm not omitting the scholarship of Calvin or Luther, but a line of demarcation must be inserted on certain doctrinal perspectives ... now I know why God predestined me to be "non-conformed."
The irresistible grace I find to be deeply troubling as I see Yahweh wanting us to freely choose Him
@@michaelbrickley2443 I did freely choose Him. Meditate on that. Bless you.
People speak of pride with Calvinists....I am a Calvinist (99% anyway) and I often wonder why God saved me? Why? It wasn't because I was good or smart or had just enough faith....what I had known since I was a small kid now somehow struck me at 22 as being beautiful, Jesus was now desirable. I had 'prayed the prayer' many many times....what was now so different about this time? God place into my heart, a love for Himself...that was never ever the case before. Anyways, Calvinists and Arminians are brothers in Jesus, regardless. Even if we don't fully understand what or how our salvation occurred, IF it did occur, then we are brothers!!
I'm predestined to be NEITHER a Calvinist or an Arminian... They are both unsound heresies...
th-cam.com/video/Kqq5mF8FBfY/w-d-xo.html
@@jimd9339 Amen!
@@jimd9339 WRONG...
@@hr2r805 Oh, that's deep....very theological... Calvinism is easily debunked with the Bible. Calvin was a heretic. He was a follower of a goofy Catholic! (Augustine)
Thank you. Agreed. However, I would not have used the word "inefficient" in connection with arguing against Calvinism that Jesus died for all. They use that word to argue that God was very efficient in limiting to he died for so he didn't waste his blood. Obviously, God's not about cold mechanical efficiency. He's about providing for all of his creation, whether or not they respond to receive his love
Don't argue, just debate.
1). Ephesians 2:8f does say that faith is a gift of God. The Greek word "this" is neuter and may refer either to salvation or act of believing. People who know Greek believe it is saying faith is a gift of God. "Our response in salvation is faith, but even that is not of ourselves [but is] the gift of God." See: www.gty.org/resources/bible-qna/BQ053113/Is-Faith-a-Gift
See also: 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, the latter: "it has been granted to you not only to believe . . .".
2. If anything is required from us, then we have done something to earn it. Paul and John specifically mention the role of the human will in salvation and both say it is not ultimate. Salvation "does not depend on human will or effort but on God's mercy." (Rom. 9:16).
We are saved NOT by "human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." (John 1:13.)
Faith by any definition is an act of the will. What else is it? A reflex?
3. There is no scripture to say no one was regenerate prior to Pentecost. David prayed that God would "take not Your Spirit from me" (Ps. 51), indicating that he had the Holy Spirit. Pentecost was not the beginning of regeneration; it was power for service. If there was no regeneration prior to Pentecost then no one was saved prior to Pentecost -- or else you believe in some kind of dispensationalism which teaches there are other ways to salvation.
4. You say that human depravity "does not mean they cannot believe". The Word of God says, the human will is always inclined to evil (Gen. 6:5),"desperately sick and beyond cure" (Jer. 17:9), a "slave of sin" (Rom. 6:17), not capable of accepting the things of God (1 Cor. 2:14), that is "dead in trespasses and sin" (Eph. 2:1); "hostile" to God (Colossians 1:21). Being incapable of accepting the things of God and dead, it cannot truly believe God; being hostile and inclined to evil, it never really wants to believe God.
5. Paul's conclusion at the end of the section on depravity in Romans is that all are sinful and therefore salvation cannot depend on people. In your man-centered philosophy, salvation depends on human beings contributing something. But Paul has shown in Romans 1:18-3:22 that that is impossible.
6. 1 Corinthians 2:14. The gospel and the law of God are most certainly things of the Spirit of God, indeed, the most important things of the Spirit of God. Paul is saying here that he is having to treat the Corinthians as if they were "natural" (i.e. unsaved, unregenerate people) and he comments that unregernerate people are not capable of accepting anything from the Spirit of God, especially including the gospel.
7. Jesus said, "you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." (John 10:26). He doesn't say (as you say), 'You are not among my sheep because you do not believe.' Their lack of believing is a result of their not being sheep. If they were sheep (i.e. "the elect") they would believe because believing would be part of their (new) nature. But because they are not sheep (natural people) they are not capable of believing, of accepting the things of the Spirit of God.
8. Romans 10:17 says: ἄρα ἡ πίστις ἐξ ἀκοῆς, ἡ δὲ ἀκοὴ διὰ ῥήματος Χριστοῦ.
"Therefore faith [is] out of hearing and the hearing is through the Word of Christ" (my translation). The final phrase is "Word of Christ" not by the bidding or charge of Christ. That's not a valid translation nor does it make any sense in the context.
The preaching of the "Word of Christ" (i.e. the gospel) produces faith (by God's Spirit) in the elect and they believe. Faith is the means whereby salvation is received. And faith is a gift. See Philippians 1:29. 1 John 5:1 shows us that everyone who believes (present tense) has been (perfect tense, indicating past completed action) "born of God" prior to believing. Being "born of God" (regenerate) comes first and enables one to believe. "We were dead in our trespasses" (Ephesians 2:5). That's the natural condition of people; they are dead in sin and so cannot believe. Then God "made us alive together with Christ". That's regeneration and God does it because of grace, not because of anything in us (including supposedly fore-seeing our faith). Then we believe. Faith isn't the condition of regeneration but the product of it. Then we gratefully "receive" the gift of salvation, like someone receiving a car that has already been titled to them; it's been theirs already, they just didn't know it until they received it.
9. The gospel (plus nothing) is the power of God for salvation. The preaching of the "Word of Christ" (i.e. the gospel) produces faith (by God's Spirit) in the elect and they believe (Romans 10). Others don't believe because they are not sheep. Note that you've added something the human will does (what you call "faith") as an essential ingredient in salvation, making the human will a co-Savior. Of course, the Word of God teaches us that (1) Jesus is the Savior and (2) the human will will never choose to believe.
10. Genesis 6:5 describes the human condition. (Are you assuming we've gotten better?) A condensed form of the same description is repeated after the flood, when the only people were Noah and his family, in Genesis 8:21, adding the phrase "from youth." So the human condition is that every inclination of the human heart is only inclined toward evil all the time, from youth, even for righteous people like Noah and his family. Noah found grace because that's the only way anyone can be saved.
11. Being a slave means being in bondage and unable to break free; it means being totally obedient to the master. Here, the master is sin. The natural person is a slave of sin and so does (including in his desiring) what his master (sin) tells him.
12. "Dead" as being totally unresponsive and incapable. No, Adam and Eve and all their children are totally incapable of accepting the things of the Spirit of God (i.e. God's Word, the gospel, faith, etc); every inclination of their heart is always evil; their heart is desperately sick and beyond cure (Jer. 17:9); they are slaves of sin and dead in it, with minds that are naturally "hostile" to God (Colossians 1:21). This is the clear, repeated, emphatic testimony of scripture.
13. His "eternal decree" to save was loving. You would actually know that if you knew what you were talking about. In Ephesians 1, "in love He predestined us". It's not we who believe the Bible who are leaving something out. We believe in God's love. It's you, with your synergist, man-centered philosophy that omits God's predestination even where it is most plainly taught.
14. Jesus said, "you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." (John 10:26). Jesus said, "“I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.7 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Notice, God hides truths from some people; the Father reveals truths to other people, hence His love is not indiscriminate. Notice the sovereignty of God; all things have been handed to the Son, not to human "free will". Notice that it is the Son who chooses to reveal Himself to some people. That's what the true Jesus teaches.
15. It's not just "Calvin's God" who is sovereign. It's the one true God. God "works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11).
16. Acts 13:48? It cannot be interpreted as 'they were appointed to eternal life because they believed'. How could you possibly suggest that?
The second half of the verse says: " καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον"
"and believed as many as were appointed to eternal life". There is no such word "because", showing their appointment to eternal life was because they believed.
17. God does not ultimately desire all people to be saved. The Bible says God hates Esau (Malachi 1:2; Romans 9). God hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that He can bless Israel and glorify Himself (Ex. 4:21; 7:3; 14:4, 17); “It was the Lord’s doing to harden [the Caananite’s] hearts . . . in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy. . .” (Jos. 11:20); the prophet Isaiah asked God why He hardened the people’s heart so they wouldn’t revere Him (Is. 63:17); the Apostle Paul wrote that God “hardens whom He wants to harden” (Rom. 9:18). Further, Isaiah is commissioned by God to prophesy for the very purpose that Israel might “not understand”, that they might be dull, not repent and so earn God’s judgement (Is. 6:9-13). Jesus explained that He used parables not because it was an effective teaching tool (as many people today say) but precisely for the opposite reason: that the hard hearted people might not understand and repent (Mt. 13:13ff). Obviously then, since God hardens hearts, He does desire something more than the salvation of some people.
18. Your theology is based on inferences, eisegesis instead of exegesis. You ASSUME that the offer to "come" means that everyone has the ability to come. But the Lord Jesus told us, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." (John 6:44a). That is, no one has the ability to come to Jesus unless the Father draws him and the Father does not draw everyone because everyone who is drawn is kept safe to the final day. "And I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:44b)
19. If I say, "Whosoever swims across this lake will get to the other side", that doesn't require me to mean that everyone can swim. Just so, when scripture says "whosoever believes will have eternal life" (John 3:16), that says nothing about whether or not all people are cable of saving faith. It only says that those who have it will be saved.
20. John 10:27 does not say "They have believed and become His sheep." Quite the opposite: It says that "My sheep listen to My voice". They hear Jesus' voice because they are sheep; it never says they are sheep because they believe. Jesus said, "you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." (John 10:26). Their lack of believing is a result of their not being sheep. If they were sheep (i.e. "the elect") they would believe because believing would be part of their (new) nature. But because they are not sheep (natural people) they are not capable of believing.
21. "Calvinists" have been some of the greatest evangelists, like George Whitefield, and began the modern missionary movement (e.g. John Elliot, William Carey).
very long but good post. ty for the information
Our core beliefs shape our reality. There’s no such thing as interpreting Scripture in an unbiased way. We need some guiding principle or principles to guide us, and “What does this tell us about the character of God?” is an excellent one.
Because your commitment to theistic teaching is more important than a careful analysis of the mechanics of the will. I totally understand it, because I was in Seminary before I drummed up the courage to think in those terms, and it was extremely difficult to do, and I didn't come out a Calvinist, I came out independent and on my first real search for truth.
I myself studying theology now and you know what, there are endless arguments about different denominations and their theological viewpoints. That doesn’t make sense why leave that division and live according to what the Bible says..No one can understand God fully to explain Him because He is Almighty.. Theology alone cannot make you a better person but Only a genuine relationship with God and do what He commands you to do daily.
Christ belonged to no drnominInation, in fact his most ardent disagreements were both the political and religious leaders of the day ( the more things change the more they stay the same
Good stuff man. I am a theology major as well. Even though this guy is confused somewhat and is a full BLOWN arminianist, theology can just be too much sometimes. Just live it, man.
Yes!
Theology alone cannot make you a better person..
Reminds me of the saying..
..Jesus didn't come to make bad ppl good..He came to make dead ppl live.
Excellent post. Thank you. I'm saving this.
"now I know why God predestined me to be a Methodist" nice zinger!
As a Calvinist, I agree with this statement. 😁
@@icypirate11 a consistent Calvinist can't agree with this statement..Congradulations my friend , you're free from the Calvinist paradigm..
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 You're not making any sense. Care you elaborate?
I I'm a Calvinist because of the conviction from the Holy Spirit. I believe there are different theologies and Christian beliefs because of God. God is and was capable to make it clear to all but here we are.
Mark is a Methodist because of the drawing of the Holy Spirit and I'm a Calvinist because of the drawing of the Holy Spirit. God is the sole author of salvation.
@@icypirate11 no my friend , you're not a calvinist by the drawing of THE HOLY SPIRIT ..You are a Christian because of THE HOLY SPIRIT.. .
Also , as far as soteriology there can be but one true doctrine.. Paul plainly states there is only one salvific gospel and anything other than that is a false gospel..
If one teaches limited atonement they teach a false gospel..If one teaches that GOD reprobates people from birth to not be able to believe in CHRIST to be saved then it is a false gospel.. The verses concerning reprobation are plainly displayed in Scripture and not one speaks of GOD reprobating someone from birth my friend.. Therefore to say you believe in unlimited atonement is inconsistent..When total depravity or reprobation from birth is eliminated then Calvinism doesn't exist consistently anymore...
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 Thank you for elaborating. I respectfully disagree brother.
There is only one true God, only one scripture, and only one way of salvation. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through Jesus Christ. The Gospel message is to believe in Jesus for salvation. You believe you freely chose to do so and I believe God predestined me and drew me to Himself. We are saved by the same Gospel and we both believe in Jesus. We are both convicted by the same Spirit and we both try to study and make sense of what God teaches in His word
We're both right and we're both wrong.
I cannot say everything I believe is 100% correct. I've changed on many unsalvific details over the years. But what doesn't change is the authorship of salvation and my belief in Jesus.
Once you realize that Christians are Christians because of what God has done there is no more internal fighting to the death. I have nothing but love and compassion for you and for what God is doing in your life. I see Jesus in you and your drive to convert others to what you have come to believe and understand. I know that God is the reason you believe and reason for the theological and eschatological views you hold dear. I have come to love His grace all the more. We are so broken even in our belief. God Bless.
It’s amazing how no one ever reads John 3. A man asks Jesus how to be saved. Jesus didn’t say “I have already picked those out.” Jesus said to believe. That’s all.
Why these so called theologians seem to constantly miss. God Bless.
I'm fairly convinced that if Calvinism had been the original form of the Gospel that had been preached in the immediate aftermath of Jesus' life, death and resurrection that it wouldn't have taken off in the way it did. Frankly, it probably would've been relegated to a more cult-like status in terms of both numbers and influence. Seriously, who would sign-up for a brand new religion being actively persecuted in which there was only a slim chance that you might be in God's favor, a God who seemingly not only permits but utilizes evil acts rather than embodying recognizable love or mercy, but are more than likely made to be cast into eternal torment by no fault of your own regardless of what you do or believe? The good news indeed. Its success feels entirely predicated on the fact it emerged in a world that was already long saturated in Christianity and therefore was then filled with people who were already predisposed to the scriptures being true as a first principle and thus be capable of accepting new variations which claimed there was certain things they needed to do to be more faithful adherents.
Did you say no fault of your own, the bible says, there is not one good, no not even one, all deserve death, the more surprising and
shocking thing is that anyone is saved, every single one deserves death, all fall short of the Glory of God. God never loved Esau, in fact God hated Him. God revived the sinners that were dead in sin. God said who are you to tell me how to make my vessels, I make one for honour and another for dishonour. That's all paraphrased, but you can google them. You don't get to choose, you only get to respond. If Christ died on the cross for the world, you diminish His work on the cross. If God loved everybody there would be no
hell, because His love would conquor all evil, He didn't save trillions of angels that He made and they all get to feel eternal Hell and
they are made higher than men. There are hundreds and hundreds of scriptures that prove Reform Theology, but not everybody can see or comprehend them. God Bless.
If a Calvinist truly believes his on (heretical) doctrine and TULIP, why in the world would they be trying to convince us that we should also believe as they do. But, then again, to believe in Calvinism one has to give up logic.
Best Seven Minute Seminary thus far. Way to go Dr Witherington.
Did the Early Church Fathers teach "Calvinism"? Ken Wilson
th-cam.com/video/YTSEh1o8HdE/w-d-xo.html
Once saved always saved is not biblical. Try taking the mark of the beast. John MacArthur says that you can take the mark of the beast and still be saved. Satan wants to take away your free will. Calvinist people teach that you have no free will. Let that sink in! 😱
scripture clearly decides against human will in choosing God.
“The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?
“I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give to each man according to his ways,
According to the results of his deeds.
- Jeremiah 17:9-10
as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
- Romans 3:10-12
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
- Romans 3:18
Augustine soundly pointed out Pelagius’ error, so did Luther to Erasmus and the Synod of Dort put the Remonstrants in their place.
Tell me how does dead man choose God!
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
- Ephesians 2:1
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
- Ephesians 2:4-5
Or a bond slave who is regenerated.
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
- Romans 11:32
But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
- Galatians 3:23
for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
- Romans 7:11
So, Let me get this straight, Ben Witherington tells us he has set aside all this Scriptural verses to vend semi Pelagianism and cast aspersions at Augustine, Luther, Calvin, the Puritans, Edwards, Whitfield and Spurgeon.
Who should I believe for my doctrine?
Calvinism as you have described it is founded solely on reading scripture out of context, without a knowledge of the first century. Calvinism projects middle age sensibilities onto a text written from a completely different point of view.
For me, there are a few statements that Calvinists say that I deem as Calvinist logic. "If God atones for everyone's sins, that would lead to universalism and if God punishes those that that do not put their trust in Christ; He would be unjust because Christ's death atoned for their sins." This is just one of them and I don't seem to find much if any scripture to back that up. From all the Bible I've read, it seems to portray 5-point Arminianism.
I appreciate Ben. It would have been nice to have addressed some of the Scriptures that those who believe in Calvin's theology point out.
Check out Leighton Flowers for specific scriptures. He does excellent work in this area.
Excellent job my hillbilly friend. God is LOVE. His number one description of Himself. And if God takes no delight in the death of the wicked, surely He takes no delight in the damnation of the wicked. But in the end justice must be served.
Friend, Isaiah 6 actually says He is “Holy, Holy, Holy.” This is more emphasized than His love, though it is immeasurable as well.
This just raises more questions for me because f you reject the doctrine of election and God's sovereignty, does this mean even God himself doesn't know who's going to be saved in the end? And does this mean that man's free will can thawert God's plans?
Mankind doesn't have free will. God chooses some, his chosen, or elect by grace and draws us to him leading to belief and confession and salvation. We may think we have free will, but it is God doing it all.
God knows who is going to be saved because he specifically created them for that purpose to be glorified on the last day, established before the world began.
You cannot thwart God's plans. He is sovereign, and everything he wills happens.
@@willp.8120 It's hard to disagree with this, my desire is for autonomy which tends to cloud my reading of scripture, but if I let the text speak for itself then this is what it seems to teach, that God elects those he saves, it wasn't me after all.
@@mpalmer22 I used to believe in free will, but after being told by my brother that there was no such thing, I searched the scriptures relating to predestination and God's calling, as well as chosen. It is apparent that if we had free will, then scripture would not make sense. My issue before was that I was unaware of some key verses and without knowing them, I could make sense of free will, assuming that it was there, even though the Bible never mentions it. However, being exposed to more scripture, the only thing it could be is that we have no free will. After all, the Bible talks of being chosen before the foundation of the world. It mentions that those who hear are his sheep. It points out that he hardens the hearts of those who do not come to him. This doesn't mean that a current unsaved person won't come to him, but for those who don't before death it is because He has hardened their hearts so that they cannot believe and they never will. He doesn't draw them to Himself. He only does so for the chosen. Those He has chosen will never perish. Those in Christ will not experience a second death.
The thing you need to do is drop your desire autonomy and submit completely to what God clearly says in his word. I am not saying that you aren't saved, but I think truly saved people who hold onto free will continue to experience wrestlessness until they let go of trying to keep some autonomy. This is why I think that we can have blessed assurance in Christ, because it isn't about us. It is Him holding us because he will not lose a one. If a saved person thinks that they have to hold on to their salvation by not sinning, then this is going to limit the freedom you feel in Christ. It doesn't mean that you can continue practicing sin for the rest of your life, for the Holy Spirit will convict you and set you straight. It is, however, submitting to we can't do anything to keep our salvation, and when you do that it is truly freeing.
I wish the best for you.
The reason why this preacher is not a calvinist is because he didn't deeply study calvinistic theology.I refute this preacher explanation.
😂😂😂 Dr Ben is the Best!
Could you share with me the verse or verses that state that there a prevenient grace that gives sinners the ability to respond positively to the gospel? If the sinner's inability results from his unwillingness, it would seem that if such a grace enabled sinners to react rightly to the gospel, that would require that they also be granted the desire to do so. Does it not seem problematic to you that sinners universally don't have such a desire?
I guess my question to you is, can you provide scripture in context, that says there is no prevenient grace?
Remember the Roman jailer? How'd all that go down?
Dear brother Ben, I appreciate your frank confession to a Methodist, and not a Calvinist, but after fify years as a Christian decided to abandon denominational affiliations and come to the bible as a little child taught by the Holy Spirit , and for the last five years I have studied every word of the bible in its local and canonical context in a similar was that Ivan Pavin studied from linguistic numercy aspect, My greatest discovery is that our creator is a moral God, and I have been writing a book about His character for five years, if you are interested is sharing this with me at times let me know, yours in Christ James Bertam
The doctrine of the elect is severely misunderstood. If God is not sovereign then God is unjust. Who am I to question God's motives. Man is totally and utterly depraved. God chooses man responds, but our response is not free but comes at a price, the blood of Christ. I have heard people say, "I accepted Christ or I decided to choose God." Really, how arrogant and presumptuous. God. Do you not know how God has chosen vessels for honor and dishonor, how can the clay instruct the Potter. We should humbly bend the knee and thank God He had chosen us as His elect. Praise and glory to Christ.
Sovereignty does not mean absolutely unyielding control of every detail. Only in a Calvinist dictionary does it mean that. It’s redefined so that anyone who has an actual understanding of sovereignty- which is more akin to jurisdiction- can be cast from the Kingdom for not believing in that absolutely false version of sovereignty.
I was raised in Calvinism but I ain't more, but still shaking the dust off my feet and clothes... I do however love The Lord and I am happy to be free to choose, Jesus died for all, we have to accept that free gift. I accept but refuse Calvinism utterly. Thank you for this testimony.
3:20 This is 1 of the verses, in my ❤ & mind, that's extremely clear. I struggled w/ this immediately as I was being indoctrinated into the false teaching, wacky interpretations of scripture, & the trend/fad of claiming to be a Calvinist.
"Calvinism" is simply true Biblical Christianity. It is not wacky interpretations but is based on comparing scripture from scripture.
I don't like people calling themselves Calvinists because Calvin was a man, but the theology known as Calvinism is true.
There are some so called Calvinists who do appear prideful and are harsh in their judgment, but that has nothing to do with what scripture teaches.
@@willp.8120there should be no such thing called "Calvinism" that should tell you it's not biblical but Calvin's approach and misunderstanding of scripture
@@oscarholley891 You're wrong, but I am not in the mood to discuss right now.
Isn’t prevenient grace impossible to refuse? If I enter the world not totally lost, but a little helped by God’s grace, when did I freely receive it?
Yeah, good point. _Prevenient grace_ seems to have the same logic "problem" of "freely" receiving a God's grace.
@@icypirate11 Thanks for considering my point. I don’t want this discussion to divide genuine brothers and sisters in Christ. We MUST love each other in the midst of our disagreements, because this isn’t about winning a debate. It’s about edifying each other for our mutual good so that we all grow up in our faith.
I'm not Methodist but I love your exegesis. Your study of Romans was a revelation.
I too am no longer Calvinist.
The Bible is a difficult book and needs theologians like you to clarify it.
Peter Jongsma hi. Unsure as to how difficult the Bible can be. Surely don’t need someone to interpret for me. Too much personal ideas can color the interpretation. I read the Word daily for years. I will listed to what others say but pay attention to what God says
@@joer5627 you need the Holy Spirit to guide you to understand the word of God otherwise you are leaning on intellectuality on a spiritual word like the Pharisees and Saducees
But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative-that is, the Holy Spirit-he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.
John 14:26
Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. Luke 24:45
They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us as He spoke with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?" Luke 24:32
You need the Holy Spirit to understand the scriptures, the Word is alive, and the Holy Spirit wrote the Word; the author is the best Person to explain the Truth to you. He also leads you into all Truth. He also opens your. mind to understanding. Be a good Berean and study this out. You must be born again, and you must also be baptised, and receive the Holy Spirit baptism of Fire! Godbless you according to Ephesians 1:16-18 in the name of Jesus! Amen.
@@J_a_s_o_n I would like to receive the holy Spirit but I'm not sure how to receive it the right way
This is very succinct and on point. It doesn't even address a whole other aspect of Calvinism, which is divine determinism, which makes God the author of all sin, including the worst atrocities imaginable.
Interesting. Up until I was about 7 years old we attended the Methodist church. My dad and all his family were Methodists but my mom had been raised Baptist. She and her brother eventually convinced my dad to switch to the Baptist church. I remember there were lots of discussions at that time about the differences in the two churches. The main point that I remember being discussed was that Methodists believed that we should be sprinkled while Baptists believed that we should be immersed. The other thing was the eternal security question. My dad was a steward in the Methodist church but when he became Baptists he became a deacon.
Jesus Christ was immersed so we don't have to go anywhere else.
You sir, have denied the clear teachings of Scripture. Your doctrine is damnable. God's word clearly says, He chose us (His elect) in Him before the foundation of the world.(Ephesians 1:4) Furthermore, one cannot choose God when they are dead. We were dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1). You continued to take scripture out of context throughout your presentations when you weren't outright denying it. And your comment at [2:58] "Never mind the exegesis of little things?" You gotta be kidding me. You actually admitted in that one comment that not all scripture is important. Then you said, Jesus died for all and atoned for all [3:38-3:30]. But if you really believe that Jesus died for all, and all are atoned for then all will be saved because all have been atoned for. Your logical conclusion has to then be no one will be in hell when Jesus clearly taught more will travel the broad road that leads to destruction than those who will travel the narrow road that leads to eternal life. If you really believe that, you are a universalist and a heretic of the worst sort.
Jesus Christ died for all NOT some.
Unfortunately many reject Him.
So why did God let so many people without the gospel until they died??
And for those who reject their sins are punished twice, once on Christ, and once on themselves. That means that God is not just!!!
@@budiasali8879 He is. It is people who are refusing to surrender to Christ by faith.
@@TheLocalChurchExperience you cant explain how He can be just if He punished sins of unbelievers twice!!
@@budiasali8879 That's a consequence MEN chose for themselves.
Question: How can a dead man bring himself back to life, by his own Freewill?
It's all about God's character.
And free choice
Amen!
He said “I didn’t believe before the foundations of the world that God chose.” He’s literally saying he doesn’t not believe Ephesians 1:4. He was quoting Eph 1:4 and says he doesn’t believe it.
We exist in a soteriological paradox; Calvin leaned exceedingly far toward the para- and Jacobus Arminius leaned even more toward the -dox. I see a continuum betwixt the two where both seem so when somewhat moderated each by the other. I love and honor them both as fathers in the faith. This is a very good video.
It is silly to ignore common teaching scripture and cling to either one. Why is it so hard for some to reconcile that Good chooses and man chooses? That's like trying to get to the bottom of whether you chose your wife or if she chose you; you both did! You're right.
I now try to keep the wheat and discard the chaff of both calvinism (God can but won't save everyone) arminianism (God wants to save all but Can't...). GOD is Love and Sovereign - Ephesians 1 and 1 Timothy 2:4 and 4:10, 1 John 2:2
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that WHOSOEVER believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
"Whosoever" = every believing one
The question is what does the Bible teach about the capacity of the will of men.
@@mikeschmoll7762 were made in God's image,that's the capacity of man my friend we have free will and so does God.
@@christdiedforoursins8985 did you ever heard something about the "fall" my friend? We can choose freely, of course but we always choose according to our greatest desires. Those desires were corrupted and distorted at the fall. The results are devastating.
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot."
Romans 8:7 ESV
If we were still free (as you said) we would be able to submit to God's law but Paul clearly denies that. (Listen to what Jesus thought about our capacity in John 6,44)
That's the reason why Jesus said,
“Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin."
John 8:34 ESV
And a slave is by definition not free he needs to be set free!
" So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."
John 8:36 ESV
I'm sorry there is no" free" will in the Bible. A will nonetheless but a depraved one which needs do be redeemed.
@@mikeschmoll7762 for freedom Christ has set us free.I said we are made in Gods image with the free will to choose, were not robots but slaves to sin ,slavery doesn't take away your freewill you are taken captive to obey another's will as a slave, until you come to have faith in Jesus, who set us free from the law of sin and death and defeated the devil by dying in our place,there is freewill yet God still is God , and can do what he pleases ,we have free will in our ability to believe or not believe in Jesus shure God can harden peoples hearts but remember pharaoh hardened his heart before God did.and God has called many but a few are chosen.Any relationship has two wills involved marriage is the example God gave us .God is not a rapist.
@@mikeschmoll7762 Adam and eve chose to disobey God.They were not programmed to disobey him .free will and freedom are different things .no one can take away your freewill .
Why do calvanists insist you are either calvinist or aminian? Those are men. I don't follow men. I read the scripture. Not their books and their personal ideas of what they think scripture means. I see where calvin may have gotten his ideas, but when i read about the "elect" it seems that group were originally the Hebrew people, then the gentiles adopted into that group through faith in Jesus. The scripture in its entirety points to a loving God who wants all of us to come to Him. His an has alwsys been for all of us to come to Him. We however don't always choose Him even though He wants us. What meaning would faith have if we had no choice? None. What would love mean if we had no choice? Nothing. What would salvation be if we were not once lost? Nothing. The entire bible points to....God made us and gave us the free will to choose which side we will be on. He provides us with every opportunity and every thing we need to choose Him, but we must choose Him, or our selfish desires. We are after all lost sinners destined for hell and destruction if not for Him and what he has done for us.
A Calvinist is not the worst thing any of us could be. There are plenty of issues in the UMC currently to keep us busy.
But a cage stage Calvinist would definitely be one of the worst things to be. like many people have been and sadly some die in their cage stagery..
God help us.
Whenever you engage someone who's unwilling to listen to what we believe then it's most likely their calvinistic views are Cage stage Calvinist and they believe calvinism saves.
Such a religion couldn't save you out of a wet paper bag my friend..
God help us never to become sectarian as those who resort to such mindsets.
Calvinism is blasphemy..
Calvinist, Mormon, JW....same camp....cult
@@rettpanda6203
I disagree with you... calvinistic people do however oftentimes come across as cult like and have cultish mindsets and manipulation oftentimes and they focus on their proof texts like Jehovah's witnesses do....but calvinistic people are Christian.
If it's another gospel than it's more dangerous than others and calvinism teaches another gospel my friend.Its just close enough to biblical salvation to trick babes in CHRIST into thinking its the real gospel..When we stand before CHRIST one day would you rather be able to tell him that you tried your best to convince the world that HE didn't die for all , and that most don't even have a chance to be saved because GOD hated them from birth ? Especially in light of mark 16 : 15 thru 16 ? Or would you rather be able to say I was faithful LORD and taught folks that any creature could be saved by YOUR death and resurrection and that you tasted death for every man like YOUR word says..People act so flippant it seems debating these things but that reality of facing CHRIST one day is real and on its way..
Who is this guy? I’ve read many books and agree with many of the reformed scholars ( Sproul, MacArthur, etc…) who’ve dedicated years and years of study. I’ll stand by them and Calvinism. It’s so very obvious.
Your choice where you stand, yet reformed theology is demonic! Make wise decisions and consider where conclusions lead .
@@jimmyray5524 Any who BELIEVE/ Have faith, are predestined /adopted. in Jesus
Jimmy, do you deny your ability to choose to believe and trust Jesus and instead trust in a pre world election/ lottery? Jimmy you have a choice.
In the end it comes down to man centered theology and God centered theology. Most find Reformed theology offensive because they want humanity to have free will but according to Scripture they don't when man is spiritually dead in sin (Eph 2:1), no one seeks for God (Romans 3:11) no one does good (Psalm 14:3). If man cannot choose God, then man is dependent upon God for everything that would make TULIP correct, no matter how much you dislike God being in control.
Biblical Christianity
It’s all about the character of God, not whether or not I can boast of having free will.
I believe you’re misunderstanding what it means to be dead in sins. I also believe that you’re extracting something out of Romans 3 that Paul never intended. We need context.
You’re also missing some key points in the context of Psa 14.
We should talk and look at the passages that refute total inability.
Hope to hear from you soon.
God bless
1:27 Would it be a fair statement to say that God could do one of three things with us. 1) He could save all of us 2) He could save none of us 3) or He could save some of us. 1:39 So why did Saul not reject God's offer of Love (Regeneration) on the road to Damascus since He was persecuting Christians. 2:11 You mentioned the Character of God (Attributes) but I think you forgot to mention what Jesus spoke more of then any of His Father's other attributes, which is His Wrath. 2:54 When you say Love must be Freely returned, are you saying You have Loved God with all your Heart, Soul, Mind and Strength? The reason I am asking this is because I don't want to Blaspheme the Name of the Lord by pretending that I have Loved Him like He has Loved Me which would be equal Love. I too have been learning from the perspective of Reformed Theology in the last 4 years after being taught in a Arminian Church for almost 30 years and for Me Reformed Theology Helped open my eyes to Who God really is. Have to go but would Love to return, Lord Willing to try and get past the 2:54 mark.
I went to GCTS as an Arminian and came out even more Arminian after hearing the Reformed position too. It was a great experience
T Last - You only considered one side if you were taught by Arminians. I have never met an Arminian who correctly portrayed Calvinism.
m1tanker64 Gordon Conwell is reformed. I’m not sure what you are talking about??
m1tanker64 further, I’ve often heard this from calvinists when they are pressed by non-Calvinists to explain the logical inconsistencies of the Calvinistic system. What would you want a non-Calvinist to do to represent your position better?
@@m1tanker64
Sadly, too many Calvinists only hear the Calvinist 'side'.
Also listen to the language we use...ie: "which 'side' are you?"
It's adversarial language. And too many get hooked into the "US vs them mentality, which we all can fall prey to.
I think this is rooted in our Gon given need/desire for justice
@@m1tanker64 I have heard Free will people correctly portray what John Calvin taught. As far as unconditional election doctrine- there are too many variants for a universal descrption. At the heart it means that God predestines those who will go to heave and hell and the person has no power to accept Christ if predestined to hell.
So his standard for rejecting other scripture about predestination is his version of love " free given and free taken". Now with that being said that would be his view and no real scripture to back it up. He is giving his humanistic standard for love and at the same time rejecting scripture from the beginning of the video. Then he would reject scripture alone and faith alone. He would base his salvation on himself to accept or reject Jesus. This is interesting though to hear.
Mostly a commentary on why he feels or thinks something rather than believing the word of God. I will stick with what God tells me in His word over pride in my personal opinions. I am no Calvinist; I am a disciple of God.
By God's grace I was given faith to believe His revealed truth and can now respond in good works as Jesus created me for before time (Ephesians 2:8-10). I can have no claim to deserving this gift or choosing it, for than I could boast of it over my unrepentant neighbor. But I will continue to proclaim this good news to the nations and pray the Holy Spirit will give new life to all those that hear.
Also I find no no condemnation for brothers and sisters that may have incorrect interpretation of this doctrine (even if that is myself), so please know I say this in love and trust of God's redemptive power.
Soli Deo gloria
Amen!
If you did not choose to receive this gift of salvation was it not received "irresistibly" and "unconditionally"?
@@KnightTemplar1000 If I understand your question correctly, yes this gift of faith was graciously and unconditionally given to me by God, and I had no prerogative or power to resist this mercy.
If you are a Calvinist, then what if you found out that your son or daughter and is not chosen by God but rather predestined not to go to heaven but rather to hell. Would you respect God's sovereignty? or you will beg to God to save your children whom He did not elected in the first place?
Where in Scripture are we taught to discern if someone is saved or not? We can only assume someone's salvation, friend.
If you believe God is omniscient and omnipresent, it is quite literally impossible to 'not' be predestined. And since the scriptures tell us that God knew us before He formed us in the womb, this only validates that point.
Now, I am not saying the 'eternal' dissolves the 'temporal'...merely that God knew who would be saved before the earth was formed, and I am okay with and bow to said Sovereignty.
fanuvgamez. It is not to say God knew each individual... Could be that He knew that the Elect would first belong to Israel, and later to Jesus.
@Kevin Wayne
who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
2 Timothy 1:9 ESV
@Kevin Wayne was God then gambling "not knowing" who would be saved?
Dr Ben is spot on. The thing about Calvinists is:they say that those that are against it, 'dont understand Calvinism'. When non Calvinists explain their understanding Calvinism and refute it with Scripture, Calvinists respond by ad hominem attacks. Calvinism can be destroyed so many ways that Scripture has to be totally ignored to embrace it. Reformed theology indeed. Meh.
Fred Ost
Yup, you're 100% correct. I was a Calvinist for 20yrs. I could argue every single doctrinal point. But when I left Calvinism, all of a sudden Calvinists started to say *"You must not have understood Calvinism if you left it."*
The arrogance is astounding. I never said such things to non Calvinists when I was a Calvinist.
@@tessw9744 What were the reasons for your leaving?
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A very shallow refutation of reformed view of election. Read Matt. 11:25-27 for the PRAYER of Jesus. Then read Matt. 11:28-30 for the PREACHING of Jesus. You will find the perfect balance between the sovereign view of salvation and the call of salvation to all. Notice that it says in verse 26 that this is "well-pleasing to God".
I enjoy listening to Dr. Ben Witherington so much. I hope to attend Asbury someday.
This articulation of Calvinism is a straw man, and I am not sure Dr. Ben Witherington accomplishes defeating his straw man.
Jared Pomeroy Well not Calvinist holds double predestination or superlapsarian. Methodists teach prevenient grace, which irresistibly frees the will of persons to choose Christ, who apart from that grace wouldn't want to be saved, an offer you can't refuse. He also never deals with Dr. Thomas Schreiner's all without distinction, as opposed to all without exception, distinction. Anybody who thinks that this issue can be dealt with in 6 minutes, and I sure Dr. Witherington doesn't think that, misses the the issue totally.
+Sean Richmond I would first like to submit that all predestination in the calvinist sense is practically double predestination, because the result is always the same. It always ends with people having no choice in the matter and either burning for eternity or being irresistibly pulled to paradise. Whether God deliberately elects or simply passes over those predestined to hell makes no difference. If they go to hell, they were not elect in Christ, and so the word-softening of some Calvinists who only acknowledge a positive decree to predestine men to Christ is of no effect on the result. All predestination results in double predestination.
I think there are some good critical questions to be asking here, such as; Why does the Devil "prowl about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" if God has already done his work for him and elected the majority of humanity to hell? God has outdone him in his job, and he need not try if he knows his work is cut out for him.
God "is not willing that any should perish, but for all to come to repentance". How do you reconcile this with predestination, which says he IS willing that some should perish, that though he can save them, he won't?
Why would Jesus cry as he did over Jerusalem's unwillingness to repent? "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing!" What crocodile tears are these when Jesus, the world's greatest actor, weeps over those he has irresistibly elected to everlasting burnings?
Answer me these, and I'll have a hundred more of the like to ask. This lie of predestination MUST be engaged with truth. It destroys everything beautiful about the Gospel, and is really another gospel entirely. I don't mean to say I know what all the passages concerning predestination mean, but whatever it is, it is certainly not the Calvinist understanding!
Precisely. I laugh when Calvinists say they don't hold to double predestination when, IN REALITY, their belief still results in double predestination. And I always like to end these conversations with, "well I was predestined to not believe in Calvinism and you were predestined to believe in Calvinism so let's do what we were predestined to do and agree to disagree". :)
Isaiah 53:5, But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes, we are healed.For salvation, people just need to follow the way they did it in Acts? They were baptized in the water and of the spirit after they believed. Here's why! The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If we are to follow him, we must do the same thing. Death= repentance, Burial = baptism, and resurrection = being filled with the Holy Ghost and rising again from the dead. That's what Acts 2:38 is.We must obey the gospel, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ... Matthew 7:21-23, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER which is in Heaven. St John 3:3-5, EXCEPT a man be born of WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of GOD.We can't come up with our own gospel. Galatians 1:8-9, But though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Don't be cursed. One way for all people. Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritan. Our salvation has to match-up with the scriptures and no scriptures on the subject can be taken away.Eternity is TOOO long to be WRONG! st, John 5:39, Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.God told Noah exactly how to be saved, how he must build the ark. Noah didn't come up with his own plan like people are doing today. A sinner's prayer, you just have to believe, etc which is not in the bible.The gospels show what Christ has done on the cross for us. The book of Acts shows us the beginning of Christ's Church and how to enter the Church, obeying Acts 2:38. The letters were written to the Church to show us how to behave now that we are born again into the Church.It's better to walk alone than to walk with a crowd going in the wrong direction. Are we supposed to follow the teachings of the apostles? Acts 2:42, They continued steadfastly in the apostle's doctrines. Ephesians 2:20, We are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone. If you believe in this message, help spread it in the name of Jesus Christ. God bless you!
Rock on! I don't understand how this isn't more commonly understood.
Calvinism naturally leads to the non existence of apostasy. Yet, the OT and NT are replete with warnings against apostasy. To believe in Calvinism, you’d have to believe that god intentionally brought up a church they call heresy (the Catholic Church) in order to spark a reformation 1500 years later.
Depends on what type of Calvinism you subscribe to. Those churches aren’t saved in a sense since they are apostates.
I think if someone becomes an apostate you never really knew God because in a sense you’re claiming God wasn’t enough so therefore you rebel against Him when we know this isn’t true.
open theism is the only conclusion that can be reached with this. Either God uphold (controls) everything or he controls nothing. You can't have both. This man's appeal is to emotion rather than logic
Joe Momma
This is a false dichotomy there are other more nuanced options on both sides of these issues.
On the Calvinist end for God to be sovereign it is not necessary for God to have determined and immediately control and effectually plan and cause every moment of every atom and thought.
On the Arminian end, for men to have free agency and God to give conditional atonement, it is not necessary for men’s will to supersede God’s will, God’s will can still be effectually sustained, worked, and established even if men have free agency to make choices that he would not desire them to do.
@@Jondree This is model you have proposed here is very similar to Molinism which puts man in a mode of cooperative partnership with the omnipotence of deity- which is in itself against everything that scripture expounds. Romans 9 leaves no room whatsoever for any rogue molecule inside the God which we move and have our being.
Logically, God cannot be the author of evil, which He is, according to Calvinist doctrine. If we have no agency, whatsoever, then we are not guilty of sinning. God is is causing us to sin and rebel. God wants us to sin. God takes pleasure in casting His children into Hell. That, brother, is illogical, and contradicts what Christ taught us.
@@Pondimus_Maximus God is not the author of evil. He however is the publisher of Evil. Isaiah 45:7
Talking about the observation of "choice" is what I call a "phenomenological" argument--it just calls it as one sees it at a specific point in time, i.e. I see you choosing. It's no different than Joshua saying "he saw the sun stand still in the sky"--its wording it according to your perspective of the phenomenon at the time. The claim is not designed to reach any farther than that. A statement like that says nothing about God's activity toward everlasting life (i.e. election), which is a discussion that has its origins in eternity, then expressed through time. Many people talk about "salvation" as though they can see from one point in time (i.e. choice) into eternity (i.e. election), and this is fallacious argumentation. For example--the thief on the cross ended up with Christ in paradise, Jesus says this. However, consider his condition prior to that moment--do you think the disciples would have called him elect if they saw him while they were struggling to serve Jesus in their ministry and he was stealing from people in the events leading to his crucifixion? Hardly. Yet, he finds his way--through the sinful activity of his life, no less--to come to Jesus and accept eternal life. Now consider Judas--served Christ all the years of his ministry like the others. And yet was the "son of perdition" and called "the devil" by Jesus himself from the very beginning! (actual Greek rendering there "diabolos" is used, not "daimonion") You want to tell me where choice is here? And do you think the author has accidentally used these examples in the same document? I can tell you--election has already presupposed the life decisions of the one being elected. This does not determine those choices, no, it simply considers what they will be before the chooser makes them. This determines nothing, but allows God to time everything. And yet this is not the total picture, just the picture we are given. Paul makes this argument in Romans: "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad-in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls-she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Look, we need to make sure we are properly separating categories here--God's election is rooted in his eternal nature, given to whom he wills. Choice is rooted in our temporal nature and we cannot see the end of all things through it--only the moment. The point is you cannot see election through choice. All choice reveals is some of the kind of fruits a person shows they have, and this allows you to determine for yourself the company you keep. Paul discusses this too when he exhorts "evil company corrupts good habits." (1 Cor 15:33) The concept of eternal security might be treated this same way: differentiating what is rooted in eternity and what is rooted in time.
Amen, brother! So refreshing! What you say just fits scripture, plain and simple. I think Calvinist have over intellectualized some parts of scripture without taking the gospel together as a whole. I think the challenge for us is understanding that God knows all and knows the future but from our perspective the scripture is telling us we have free will and need to willingly come to Christ…but God already knows the outcome so that’s a difficult idea for us to reconcile
How can you lose something that isn’t earned? By not doing a certain work? If salvation depends on works in order to be kept then it isn’t given by grace. And if it’s given by grace then it depends not on works. Romans 11. True salvation is eternal security the moment of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. To say otherwise I feel undermines the saving grace of God.
I can’t imagine limited atonement but i don’t know the answer so I’m going to have faith like a little child. Lol
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*Why Would Jesus* *Die For Some and* *Not All?*
*Because the Father* *Knows Who Will* *Accept Salvation and* *Who Will Reject* *Jesus' Sacrifice For* *All, Some Start their* *Labor at the Eleventh* *Hour Yet Recieve the* *Same Wage a Penny*
*Matt20:6*
If our response limits the atonement, man is the one who holds the power of salvation not God.
I don't think he is considering the scriptures laying out 'total depravity'. God freely gives his forgiveness and love, and true Christians freely receive it. However every person in the flesh, of our own human nature, willfully rejects the offer. Not even one seeks God or understands God. That's why you must be born again first, in order to understand spiritual things, and then be able to receive God's forgiveness and love.
I think we can all agree that people cannot come to Christ without God drawing them. However, that doesn't prove that regeneration is necessary. In fact, the scriptures teach that faith comes prior to regeneration, so clearly regeneration isn't required for faith.
Not intending to be disagreeable. Just figured I would clarify the actual contention between Calvinists and Arminians/Wesleyans.
I'm not a Calvinist either but I absolutely believe that a genuinely born again believer in Jesus can never lose their salvation . A shipwrecked faith in context is referring to Paul's ministry and that he never wanted to lose credibility among those he shared the Gospel with , it has nothing to do with losing ones salvation . Then let's not forget the oft misused verses in Heb. 6 and Heb. 10 which have nothing whatsoever to do with losing ones salvation and are instead imploring Jews to fully partake of the New Covenant and leave the Old Covenant once and for all .
I'm not a Calvinist and I don't think you can lose your salvation, either.
There are scores of verses in the Bible that say you can. Salvation is a conditional promise. .......... "So you must remain faithful to what you have been taught from the beginning. If you do, you will continue to live in fellowship with the Son and with the Father (1 John 2:24, emphasis mine)." And, "For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ (Hebrews 3:14)."
Hi. I think you can lose your salvation. However, if you don't wilfully spurn and reject Christ after you are born again then it is impossible because He will never leave you or forsake you. I think the only way you can lose your salvation is if you become reprobate
JohnW Right on John. It's ok to not be a Calvinists or to be one. It's not ok to be without Christ as your Lord and Savior and to die in your sins.
@@JohnQPublic11 your quoted verses does not deal with salvation but with faith. Try again.
He never accounts for the fall and the state of man. Dead, not wounded or stunned in sin. Death needs resurrection. I Christ died for ALL then ALL will be saved. His death and sacrifice is not limited by our will but God's design and purpose.
Stephen Atkins
Death doesn’t need resurrection to believe. It needs resurrection to be reconciled with God and serve Him in Spirit and in truth.
When I researched Calvin the man in Geneva, I was shocked at the brutality and micro-control he brought to Geneva. So mystifying how the Geneva city council declared Calvin's word to be God's word!! Study John Wesley and its very apparent there is a huge gulf of difference between the two in how they lived their lives and dealt with their fellow creations. Night and day, black and white.
My issue with calvinism is it makes the gospel irrelevant to salvation the basis of Salvation would be the eternal calling of God rather than the hearing of the gospel
Arminianism puts YOU at the center of Your Salvation.
Calvinism put JESUS at the center of your Salvation.
Arminianism puts your Salvation in your hands to keep and maintain or you'll lose it.
Calvinism puts your Salvation Safely in the Hand of God of which JESUS said no one can snatch you out of, not even yourself.
God doesn't un-Save someone whom He's promised to give Eternal Life.
Believing you can lose your Salvation once you've Been Born Again is to believe that God is a Liar and
His Holy Spirit weak.
If you could Save your Self by your own Actions, JESUS' death on the Cross was unnecessary.
Arminians believe you're Saved because YOU accepted JESUS. Calvinist believe you're Saved because JESUS accepted you.
I think you’re getting tripped up in your view. Arminians believe in free will, that is, putting one’s faith in the saving claims of Jesus. That is why Christianity is a faith, isn’t it? It’s not a self centred thing as you claim. One responds to God’s saving Grace, NOT our own.🙂
@@rosspfeffer5185 How is that you have Faith in Jesus?
He is imposing his human thinking on God. God is also a devouring fire.
Where does the Bible say that Gospel is the two greatest commandments? At 2:45 Ben tells us the gospel is to love God and love your neighbor… In what world or universe is that the Gospel?
The N.T. was originally written in Greek not English as this mistaken man so eloquently suggests. I say, Calvinism is a revelation from God.
Calvin was instrumental in getting Servitus executed.
Does that sound like a Christian act?
No matter what spin they put on it, calvin told the theocratic state authorities where to find him.
@@shredhed572 Michael Servetus was a criminal.
The Absolute Sovereign choice of God in salvation is inescapable, even in the false, inconsistent gospel that and is widely believed today by 90% of professing Christianity. God made every atom of every human being who ever lived. Its amazing that we see musicians and athletes and are quick to say that those gifts came from God---not from the people themselves...but yet when it comes to salvation they think entirely the opposite....
Lets just assume for a moment that the gospel that this man teaches is true...lets assume that God has left the ultimate choice in salvation to each man....
Now, answer this: WHO instilled the wisdom, prudence, desire to turn to God and do the right thing in the ones who chose to be saved? It was GOD. And WHO is it that DEPRIVED the others from those virtues and sensibilities from the others who chose not to believe? Answer is GOD! And WHO absolutely knew the final destiny of every man before He even brought them into this world---yet chose to bring these "doomed from the womb" people into the world anyway? GOD! You see, those who oppose the gospel that God chooses in salvation think that God does not know the future and that God is hoping for the salvation of those who He already knows will NEVER repent and believe! The people that believe the false gospel that man chooses ultimately in salvation believe that there is something in man that is OUTSIDE God's own meticulous creative work. If a car manufacturer produces a car in which 90% of the cars pull to the left, is it the car's own doing? Or is it the manufacturer's doing?
In the Book of Job, we see when God speaks about the Ostrich, who is careless with her young, that it is God that deprived the ostrich of this instinct. Do you think that God said this because He cares about ostriches? Or to prove a point about all His creation?
FACE THE MUSIC! GOD CHOOSES IN SALVATION. NOWHERE TO RUN. NOWHERE TO HIDE.
I am waiting for a refutation of what I just said from those who so hate predestination unto salvation, particular atonement, God's complete success in saving His own, Christ's complete success on the cross.
classicjukebox One of my favorite passages is Paul's sermon on Mars Hill. I refer to this passage at times when folks ask questions about those "who haven't heard" the gospel, or those in "the deepest parts of Africa" (lol). Anyway, most Calvinists adopt a method of defining words within a context that strain the meaning and intent of the phrase in context, or the passage. No offense to you, of course, but I would like you, if you are willing, to dissect a passage, and then explain who Paul is referring to when using the words "you", "all", "they", "each" and "some" if you will. I'll post it here to save you the time of looking it up. Is the NASB ok or would you prefer another translation of the scriptures?
(Acts 17:22-34 NASB)
22 So Paul stood in the midst of the [s]Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and [t]exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God isnow declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge [u]the world in righteousness [v]through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men [w]by raising Him from the dead.”32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, “We shall hear you [x]again concerning this.” 33 So Paul went out of their midst. 34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.
Wunji1 First, I am not a Calvinist. I do believe in God's choosing in salvation, in God's electing a particular group of people before the world was made and gave them the grace of Christ also before the world was made (Ephesians 1, 2. Timothy 1:9,10.) I also believe in particular redemption, and that the Bible repeatedly rebukes the notion that salvation is based on man's will.
Next, I love Acts 17 and say amen to all of it. Where do people like me have any problem with it?
classicjukebox Calvinists, in order to defend the indefensible, have to resort to crude interpretations of some passages of scripture. For example, in 1 Timothy, they change the word "all" in the passage "God wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth". Instead of taking this passage, and many others, at face value, Calvinists say this is referring to "all types" of people, and not simply saying, well, exactly what anyone would take it to mean. In this passage in particular, their reasoning for doing so is because of verses 1-3. Here is the whole passage - 1-4 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in[a]authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and[b]dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the [c]knowledge of the truth.
They believe that the "all" in verse 1 dictates the meaning of the "all" in verse 4 - to mean "all types" in both cases, and that Paul qualified the "all types" in verse 2 by listing these "types" as being kings, those in authority. In other words, Paul was telling these believers to pray for the salvation of Kings, and those in authority.
After reading the passage, would you agree with that assessment?
Wunji1 Yes, it is absolutely true that many times Paul follows the same pattern of communication....He will list various types, ages or classes of people, and shows that they are all under the gospel's call to obedience, and then seals it up with "all men". This is not grasping for straws. It is clearly there in the text, and makes the text flow properly. God' choice in salvation, Predestination and election are foundational truths of the Gospel, and Paul does not directly contradict himself.
That is, the Holy Spirit does not contradict itself.
Also, this has NOTHING to do with Calvinism...has to do with the gospel vs heresy.
+classicjukebox 1) It has everything to do with Calvinism, because that is a) the topic of discussion, and b) because the soteriological expressions inherent in the brand of "predestination" where individuals are chosen to salvation, and others either chosen, or passed over, and therefore destined for hell, is embodied in the aforementioned ideology.
And so, I would ask, why are you willing to accept that interpretation of 1 Tim., and do damage to the second part of verse 2? What does the text actually say about why we should pray for Kings and those in authority? Does it say we are to pray for their salvation? It does not. What it does say is that we are to pray for them so that WE may lead tranquil and quiet lives in all godliness and dignity. So, we pray for the salvation of kings so that we can live quiet lives? Does this even make sense? It certainly doesn't to me! We pray for those in authority so that they will allow believers to live peaceful lives without imprisonment, torture, harassment, confiscations, and the like. The certainly seems in keeping with the tenor of the text...
I always wondered how long it took for John Calvin and his followers to sit around and spin all the TULIP nonsense.
If (prevenient) grace is resistible, then God doesn't really save. He just offers salvation (and not very persuasively in the case of those who refuse it). It's like a ship that sees a man drowning a mile or two off in a stormy sea, stops, and calls to the man to swim over, as opposed to a ship that, seeing a man drowning a mile off, makes its way through the stormy sea and actually hauls him on board.
Sorry, what you are describing is synergism. I just don't buy it.
I do not read John 1 2:2 in a manner to imply that Christ's sacrifice was not effectual for anyone for whom it was intended. My suggestion does not imply that salvation comes in any other way than by grace through faith in Christ's salvific work. In this whole matter I follow the over-all drift of Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and Calvin rather than Arminius.
Amen
Just because the genuine offer of salvation and mercy to all men is resistible in no ways takes away from the fact that God alone saves.
And your swimming analogy, as has been shown, is a caricature of the Arminian position. The Biblical (Arminian) perspective of faith is always opposed to works, and yet is the act of the agent.
A better analogy would be to say that the ship (God) grabs the man at sea ("draws all men to himself", "offers salvation to all men") and yet the man can resist the free salvation ("why do you resist the Holy Spirit?")
I do not caricature the Arminian position. I have read Olsen's book, "Arminianism: Myths and Realities," and also his book "Against Calvinism," and I have also read some of the primary source materials: I think i understand how the Arminian system works with regard to divine grace and human free will. It still seems like semi-Pelagianism to me, even if as minimally so as possible. To use Arminius' own words, salvation is not an "omnipotent act" of God's, but a "gentle and sweet persuasion (lenem et suavem suasionem) appropriate (congruam) to the free will" of each sinner. But the decisive act in salvation lies not with God, but with the sinner, who must choose -- by an act of his own grace-prepared yet still fallen will -- to co-operate with God. God's success depends on the sinner : if the sinner chooses to yield to God's "gentle and sweet" persuasion, God's achieves his (alleged) purpose. If the sinner chooses to resist God, then God fails to achieve his (alleged) purpose. But grant that God does call a sinner by a persuasion perfectly appropriate to that sinner's soul (e.g., at a time and place and in a manner that God believes, or rather, presumably, knows, that the sinner will assent / yield to it). How does the sinner resist it? And how does God, intending to save the sinner, using all his "gentle and sweet persuasion", and using it in a manner absolutely appropriate to the soul in question -- how does God, acting in such a way, fail to win the sinner's assent? Because, presumably, and indeed as Arminius himself says in the passage quoted above, God chooses not to save sinners by an "omnipotent act." But, since God's omnipotence is the attribute by which God brings his will to pass, then, if God does not use his omnipotence to save any sinners, then it cannot be God's purpose to save any sinners . For, by limiting his power, as Arminius says he does, God in fact runs the risk of saving no one, for how does God know that ANY sinner, by use of his fallen will, will yield to his "gentle and sweet persuasion"? And if this is so, then Christ's sacrifice runs the risk of saving no one, and might in fact fail to save anyone. Following this line or reasoning, Arminianism seems to collapse into nonsense. But even if this line of reasoning can be overcome, there remains a whole panoply of other serious issues that undermines it.
God give all a freewill to choose..Man can choose to walk in the light or to walk in darkness.. from the beginning of creating man..God give Adam freewill to name the animals.
Have you ever counted how many times the words "free will" are mentioned in the New Testament? Most people will guess, 20 or 50 or maybe even 100 times. I pluigged "free will" into my bible search engine and made an amazing discovery; free will is NOT mentioned AT ALL in the New Testament, NOT EVEN ONE TIME! As important a doctrine is to non-Calvinists one would think that it would be mentioned 1000 times or more. Why can't it be found? Because unsaved man DOES NOT HAVE A FREE WILL. He has a will but it is NOT free from the "power of the prince of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience." (Eph 2:2) HOWEVER once a sinner is born from above (John 3:3) he now has a free will do do acts of righteousness, something he could NOT do as a child of disobedience.
Very good teaching. God is light. In Him there is no darkness.
People cannot comprehend God. There are two parallel truths and one is the sovereignty of God and man's freewill. Even though they seem to be contradictory they are both equally true. God doesn't want any to be lost, Christ died for the sins of the whole world, the call is to whosever will and yet it is all God's election, it is not of ourselves, no one comes to Christ that are not drawn to Him by God, God gives us repentance, faith, forgiveness, salvation and yet we must work out our own salvation and yet it is God working in us. We can accept it but we can never comprehend it. The main thing is that we should do our part in living a life of faith towards God
"THE MOST HIGH RULETH IN THE KINGDOM OF MEN, AND GIVETH IT TO WHOMSOEVER HE WILL" (DANIEL 4:17)
please quote the whole chapter in context.
That's funny.
"We're praying you'll get those 5 points."
In calvinism whatever anyone's says or does, believes anything or not believing anything is pre-determined.
They don't REALLY believe what they claim.
If Christ died for all then why is there a hell?
I'm aware of this, I know the Gospel truth, the substitutionary atonement etc.
But if he wants to quote 1 Tim 2:6 on the grounds unlimited atonement, my question is 'why is there a hell?'
From a Calvinist point of view, if every person in the history of the world was to put their faith in Christ & repent of their sins would Christ's blood appease the Fathers wrath?
Of course it would!
Does this make sense?
To clarify, I believe in the 5 points of Calvin but of course he isn't my authority, the authority lies in the inherent Scripture. The same Scriptures that possessed Calvin to write his institutes.
+matt zietsch --- Because not everybody chose to exercise their GOD given free-will and believe in YHVH!
+matt zietsch Bull's-eye!
If God died for the Sins of only the Elect then the non-elect are Sin-less.
That's horrible! God died? I guess they'll have to cancel the third millennium now!
Why would god give someone an offer they can’t refuse and then have them read a book telling them the things they should and shouldn’t do? Calvinism is destroyed with this point. What’s the point of giving us laws and rules and guidance if you are already saved or damned no matter what?
Very Excellent ! Exactly 👏👏👏 God is 'Love'... an noun. Yes! If one reads 1 Cor. 13 and substitutes 'God' for Love throughout the Chapter you get a very wonderful depiction of God than the portrait which Augustinian/Calvin/Reformed doctrine paints. Unfortunately, so many who leave both Calvinism and Christianity throw out God instead of that portrait. This is also why so many atheist's describe their understanding of God, which they reject, in Calvinistic terms. It happens all the time.
There is no verse in the Bible which in proper context which clearly says; "all men are BORN unable to respond positively to God or the Gospel" It is Calvinism's "missing link" and without it their preferred definition of "Total Depravity=Total Inability" which their system presupposes and requires it collapses into the sinking sand upon which it was built.
“The Lord…is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” II Peter 3:9
“The grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.” Titus 2:11
“And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved.” Acts. 2:21
These are great Scriptures! Praise God. Thank you for watching and for sharing these!
@@Seedbed Sure! Thank you for holding to The Truth!
Amen! I like those three Ls. 😃