Tolkien, Fairy Tales and Telling Stories Today | with Nicholas Kotar
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- Nicholas Kotar and I discuss the relationship between traditional stories, fairy tales and how they relate to modern understanding of history, as well as how Tolkien's vision of Fantasy proposes a solution for modern storytelling.
You can find Nicholas' website here: nicholaskotar.com/
His Kickstarter still going for two more days:
www.kickstarte...
The books we discussed can be found in the following links:
- Song of Sirin by Nicholas Kotar: goo.gl/PSPi1J
- The Curse of the Raven by Nicholas Kotar: goo.gl/DCyNqf
- Laurus by Eugene Vodolazkin: goo.gl/JmypHi
- Essays by Tolkien: goo.gl/HKkZUg
Check out also the Storytellers Channel with whom I will collaborate: goo.gl/v4JdYk
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My links
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I always thought that Sam was the true hero of LOTR. He wasn't the one to whom the responsibility of the ring was given, but he was the one, who by brotherly love, literally carried the ringbearer to the mountain. And he was an even lower fringe character than the main hobbit. He was just a servant. There's something to be said that to become great you must be the servant to all.
very well said!
Yes! Sam is the true hero of the story. Frodo does it out of familial duty, sam does it out of love, in spite of his overwhelming fear. All the other heroes have complicated motives from guilt to revenge to fear. Sam does it out of love. And if he doesn't spare smeagle's life, no matter how badly sam wanted to kill him, nobody would be there to fall into the volcano with the ring.
Lovely analysis. Very true.
The Valar do not err in their chosen bearers
Many heroes
Frodo was motivated by duty which is impersonal love
There would've been no hero Sam, who btw couldn't handle the ring even for a short time without becoming somewhat corrupted by it, without Frodo. And Frodo's sacrifice is much greater than Sam's. He literally can't continue to live, whereas Sam has a family and keeps on living a happy life.
I've recently been listening to the Fellowship of the Ring audiobook. Thinking of Golem as the mirror reflection of Frodo is a fascinating way to look at it. In the book Gandalf talks about how Golem has succumbed to darkness, but has a small part of his mind which is still good (very reminiscent of parts Solzhenitsyn's work, as well), while Frodo is able to bear the ring because of his goodness. The idea that the good side of Frodo would fall in the last moment, and that it would be his 'dark side', as Golem, who would do good is really a brilliant idea as far as I'm concerned. Even the purest can succumb to evil, while even the most corrupt can do good. Great video.
This was profound for myself also. I have seen the world this way growing with a violent drug addicted older brother, who also could be a unimaginably kind person
Yeah, brilliant, and you described it well along with the Solzenitsen shout out. I also just thought of Gollum as a kind of Judas Iscariot figure that indirectly leads to salvation.
Thank you very much gentlemen. I am Russian Orthodox; Mr. Pageau you're videos, you're brother's book, and the guests that you have on your channel have clarified a lot for me so I can better understand Orthodox Christianity.
That's so amazing. When Nicholas described the myth-structure rippling out from the incarnation of Christ, backwards and forwards in time, this was literally what has been running through my mind for the last few weeks. Keep these videos up Jonathon, these are very important.
Would love to hear you discuss the mythological/symbolic meaning in the lotr in depth. Great stuff guys!
I think you can look at the dynamic of LOTR very simply as. Frodo = Humility (Modest self-esteem). Sauron = Pride (Inflated self esteem). Golem = Shame (deflated self-esteem).
Those are the three forces at play... three moral stances /strategies to observe on the journey.
So the struggle is that if you have deflated self esteem like Golem - its tempting to switch into pride to find some sense of balance...and the same goes for Sauron. Any move towards a more lowered sense of esteem (humility/'humiliation') brings the chance of being stuck in a state of deflated self esteem. (Permanent humiliation - aka like Golem). So in a way... Golem is Saurons greatest fear... and essentially is Saurons true essence that he is blind to - in his unconscious. He cant / doesnt want to see his shame. He fears being himself and being humiliated 'unto eternal death'.
This is why Frodo has the stability that many other characters dont... Humility prevents the swinging towards the pride of Sauron and the Shame of Golem.
this is the foundation of the moral / thematic core of the story. The readership (unlike Frodo) will not have learnt to have his level of humility yet... and thus will learn through Frodo (and other virtuous characters) how to resist those temptations to 'go astray' from the path of righteousness into sin.
Thank you for this quality content 😉 I really enjoy the depth of these discussions.
Congratulationf for hiting 10K subscriber, I'm sure you'll hit 100k in no time. cheers!!
x2
Reading this for the first time today: 91 800 subscribers and growing.
105,000 😎
@@Kevin-kc1xg grat news
For more stuff on Tolkien, you should check out Becca Tarnas' work on the convergence of images between the Red Books of Tolkien and Jung. It's very interesting to see how a comparison of Tolkien and Jung's artworks support Jung's theories of archetypes and the collective unconscious. It would be great if you got her on to talk about it!
Her work is amazing, I watched her lecture on Tolkien and Jung and got inspired to get in touch with my imagination.
My God... Content on this channel is pure gold. Thx.
For a moment I thought it's Charles from MDE, wow.
Btw. great discussion and another wonderful guest, hope to see more on Slavic folk stories!
Thanks Jonathan! My wife and I have been watching your movie reviews and are happy to be patreon supporters now. Ever consider doing a blog style movie review site geared toward “family” movies? So commonplace to find kids movies littered with dangerous meanings these days.
That's a good idea, the problem at least for now is time, but as this moves ahead, hopefully I will be able to free up more and more time to give to the symbolism project. ... and thanks for the support!
Great, great, talk. Thanks for this.
Would love to see a series of the symbolism in the major arcana of the tarot -the star, the magician, the hanged man, fool etc. Would be a series that would probably get some traction as I never see any videos that were legitimate discussions on symbols used. Thanks for the thoughtful videos!
Wonderful talk you guys. I'm sorry I listened it all the way till the end only today, and the crowd funding has closed. Congratulations on Nicholas Kotar for making it to $25.000!
Thanks for linking to the figures talked about in the description, it helps a great deal.
Enjoyed this discussion immensely and thanks for bringing this artist to my attention! I would love if you continue with interviewing artists! --- Especially loved exploration of the fantasy genre, and fairy tales . . . . It seems as if perhaps the artists of our age are the new monastics.. . . . . .I am curious to see how this will unfold in our era of Christianity. . . .
Jonathan, thank you for your videos, waking up to this one today was a pleasant surprise that started my day off right. All the best to you and Nicholas
Great video thanks both. Really thought provoking. Particularly on our way of viewing history nowadays. I've been playing with the idea that our knowledge of the past inevitably fades as a reminder that infinity stretches out behind us, as well as in front of us.
Love this, as always. Please at some point (unless I’ve missed it) do a little or long video on that amazing painting in your intro. Listened to the dialog with Matthieu again today. I think your view of symbolism will be my next autodidact project.
I think that this is the true first episode of the Universal History series.
I would love to see an analysis of Alfonso Cuarón's 'Children of Men'!
Wonderful conversation!
This is a very interesting discussion. Thank you!
Great discussion; thanks to both of you. Some highlights:
Tolkien on the arresting strangeness of fantasy as not its own sake but having to effect of waking one up from their everyday assumptions and appreciating the world anew with fresh eyes after having left (from On Fairy Stories) the arresting strangeness in e.g. marvel universe has been co-opted by calitalism to feed escapism for its own sake, telling comforting narratives
Pageau on Tolkien having the solution for our age with the Hobbit being a marginal figure but returning the age to its rightful hierarchy all the same
Also liked both of your guys' acknowledgement of the importance of healthy integration of the Pagan worldview as Tolkein pointed out re: Beowulf for example. Important also to keep in mind this possibility for integrating the Christian worldview for the future (I pretty much take Vervaeke's view on Christianity and its future viability)
I also just thought of Gollum as a kind of Judas Iscariot figure that indirectly leads to salvation.
Please do more interviews with Nicholas Kotar!
This was a great conversation; really hope to see more discussions with Nicholas.
Thanks for such a great video! It's funny that I wanted to argue with your meaning of the ring but I managed to realize you probably added more to it than what I had. I feel like the places we're going to are kind of like where the water is sweet, and kind of like where there's drinkable light. It could be like the end of a certain kind of order but I think it's a little more like the first jedis than the last one, lol.
Little nit picky notion, don't know if somebody brought it up: there are two Eddas, which represent a great source for Icelandic mythology (and by extension, Norse stories). The younger Edda by Snorri Sturlusson is indeed written by a Christian. The Elder Edda, however, is a pagan story made by pagans. The much younger Kalevala (Finland, the "other half" of the Nordic sphere) is written by a Christian and has a very Christian ending (Vainamoinen, this character representing the wisdom of humanity, is convicted for murder and departs the land, which then accepts Christianity), but most of the story or stories is pagan.
Brilliant. Thank you.
Everyone all amped up about Dune is = to or > Tolkien, so had to review. Tolkien is Magnitudes > than Dune maybe I can verbalize some of why now. Ty 6 years ago symbolic summit team.
10K subscribers! Congratulations :-)
Even St Paul say at one occasion if I remember right, "you youself have a statue? ... to an unknown God" that is not symbolic in that sense but he kind of use thete own belief to transform it to what he want to say.
Wondering what your thoughts are on Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive? Do you think that is symbolism celebrating the fringes? It seems deeper than that but I am knew to the world of symbolism.
Got a link on the Dreher piece?
Thanks. I hadn't heard of you before but I enjoyed the conversation. I pray God blesses your work.
thank you!
Before we met, my husband was a notorious womanizer, seemingly incapable of monogamy. Then he met me. 😉
We've been married more than 26 years now, and we've both been faithful...it doesn't take a saint to do it, though belief in Christ and truly valuing one's vows and covenants can only help, I suppose. But that Berkeley professor knew even less than you suspected.
Nice.
exploring a story's basis in historical fact is not to *miss* the symbolic point.
Sure..
Am I crazy or are there serious video/audio issues beginning at 17:17 ???? Ends at 19:11.
Hey there Jonathan! Odd question: Can you share the specific recording/version of the Paschal Troparion you use in the title sequence of your videos?
amazing!
Sam was kind of the bi figure who who did the last crusial act of heroism. And he wasn't even meant to be the hero, but was yhete to do anyting litterally for Frodo. And in the end he wasn't particulary remembered for it. Now, even if it is influenced by England at it's time, with Frodo being the master of Sam, still it is adapteble to our time, with even if we doesn't play the big part the part we play could make all the different. I see it also in a way in the term "love your neighbour" because without hesitation he stepped in and risked himself as he realised thad Frodo wasn't going to make it.
What was the book reccomendation you both gave? The loris?
Enkidu would be an example of a wildness rejected by Sumerian city makers?
Can somebody explain to me what Jonathan means by "the very gloomy underworld of Greek thinking"?
I was curious about that too.
whats the novel mentioned around 21:00? Loris? I can't find anything on it, or make out the authors last name
Laurus. I put a link to it in the description.
This was cool
Did anyone else notice the resemblance between Mr. Kotar and Korean Celebrity Lee Dong-Wook? Or is it just me?
Ok 😔 *sits back in the corner*
Hello Jonathan! I didn't catch the name of the book about "history being a helix". Can you tell me the titel again?
The best example of this is a piece done for First Things magazine: www.firstthings.com/article/2016/08/the-new-middle-ages
wow, this is like listening to myself, this is some synchronistic shit
Does anyone know where you can find some real fairytales for your kids, with illustrations? My boys are four and six years old now.
28:00
FIND THE CAPSTONE MY BROODAHS
A "DISCOVERY" over 6300 Years Ago
“A hieratic (Priestly) inscription upon the sarcophagus of Queen Khnem-nefert, wife of Mentu-hetep, a king of the eleventh dynasty, c.2500 B.C., states that a certain chapter of the Book of Coming Forth by Day (Book of the Dead) was discovered in the reign of Hesep-ti, the fifth king of the first dynasty, who flourished about 4266 B.C. This sarcophagus affords us two copies of the said chapter, one immediately following the other. That as early as 2500 B.C., a chapter of the Book of the Dead should be referred to a date almost 2000 years before that time is astounding, and the mind reels before the idea of a tradition which, during comparatively unlettered centuries, could have conserved a religious formula almost unimpaired. Thus thirty-four centuries ago a portion of the Book of the Dead was regarded as extremely ancient, mysterious, and difficult of comprehension. It will be noted also that the inscription on the tomb of Queen Khnem-nefert bears out that the chapter in question was "discovered" about 4266 B.C. If it were merely discovered at that early era, what periods of remoteness lie between that epoch and the time when it was first reduced to writing?
The description of the chapter on the sarcophagus of the royal lady states that "this chapter was found in the foundations beneath the Dweller in the Hennu Boat by the foreman of the builders in the time of the king of the South and North, Hesep-ti, whose word is truth"; and the Nebseni Papyrus says that the chapter was found in the city of Khemennu, or Hermopolis, on a block of alabaster, written in letters of lapis-lazuli, under the feet of the god. It also appears from the Turin Papyrus, which dates from the period of the twenty-sixth dynasty, that the name of the finder was Heru-ta-ta-f, the son of Cheops, who was at the time (3733 BC according to Budge) engaged in a tour of inspection of the temples. Sir Gaston Maspero is doubtful concerning the importance which should be attached to the statement regarding the chapter on the tomb of Queen Khnem-nefert, but M. Naville considers the chapter in question one of the oldest in the Book of the Dead.”
Wisdom of the Egyptians (The Story of the Egyptians, the Religion of the Ancient Egyptians, the Ptah-Hotep and the Ke'gemini, the "Book of the Dead," the Wisdom of Hermes Trismegistus, Egyptian Magic, the Book of Thoth), Edited by Brian Brown, New York: Brentano's, 1923, Page 148
The papyrus of Ani: a reproduction in facsimile, Volume 1, edited by Sir Ernest Alfred Wallis Budge, Medici Society ; New York : G.P. Putnam, 1913, pages 7-9
“Then the Aged One himself (i.e., Ra) embraced (?) the god Nu, and spake unto the gods who came forth in the east of the sky, "Ascribe ye praise to the god, the Aged One, from whom I have come into being. I am he who made the heavens, and I (set in order [the earth, and created the gods, and] I was with them for an exceedingly long period; then was born the year and . . . . . . but my soul is older than it (i.e., time). It is the Soul of Shu, it is the Soul of Khnemu (?), 1 it is the Soul of Heh, it is the Soul of Kek and Kerh (i.e., Night and Darkness), it is the Soul of Nu and of Ra, it is the Soul of Osiris, the lord of Tettu, it is the Soul of the Sebak Crocodile-gods and of the Crocodiles, it is the Soul of every god [who dwelleth] in the divine Snakes, it is the Soul of Apep in Mount Bakhau (i.e., the Mount of Sunrise), and it is the Soul of Ra which pervadeth the whole world."
Whosoever sayeth [these words] worketh his own protection by means of the words of power, "I am the god Hekau (i.e., the divine Word of power), and [I am] pure in my mouth, and [in] my belly; [I am] Ra from whom the gods proceeded. I am Ra, the Light-god (Khu)." When thou sayest [this], stop forth in the evening and in the morning on thine own behalf if thou wouldst make to fall the enemies of Ra. I am his Soul, and I am Heka.
Hail, thou lord of eternity, thou creator of everlastingness, who bringest to nought the gods who came forth from Ra, thou lord of thy god, thou prince who didst make what made thee, who art beloved by the fathers of the gods, on whose head are the pure words of power, who didst create the woman (erpit) that standeth on the south side of thee, who didst create the goddess who hath her face on her breast, and the serpent which standeth on his tail, with her eye on his belly, and with his tail on the earth, to whom Thoth giveth praises, and upon whom the heavens rest, and to whom Shu stretcheth out his two hands, deliver thou me from those two great gods who sit in the east of the sky, who act as wardens of heaven and as wardens of earth, and who make firm the secret places, and who are called "Aaiu-su," and "Per-f-er-maa-Nu." Moreover [there shall be) a purifying on the . . . . . day of the month . . . . . . .. even according to the performance of the ceremonies in the oldest time.”
1.) Legends of the Gods The Egyptian Texts, edited with Translations by E. A. Wallis Budge [1912]
“THE LEGEND OF THE DESTRUCTION OF MANKIND, CHAPTER V”, www.sacred-texts.com/egy/leg/leg19.htm
2.) Dhwty's Learning Center By'Dhwty'SSH-NTCHR-ANIT-HAPII www.dhwtyslearningcenter.com/2016/07/egyptian-cosmology-in-short.html
3.) www.secretoftheankh.com/?p=157
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"The story has to have a happy ending." I would argue that there is at least one type of story, other than Greek tragedies, that should, usually, end in tragedy: horror stories.
That guy is pumped on some coffee
Terry Brooks is an illustration that no great idea can survive a confrontation with bastardized version of itself that keeps up the appearances of original qualities.
Same thing happened with Albert Einstein, who became a cartoon figure with crazy hair and his life's work is now a bathroom stall scribbling.
People... thinking people, want meaning, deep spiritual meaning, in their stories, not the social propaganda that is so ham-fistedly tossed into so much of modern stories.
не акцент, а мед на уши