G-Limiter, fix or no fix, is one issue representative of the much larger problem. These modules are on borrowed time and the community is figuring out what is the best way to navigate this until a resolution comes. At some point, IMHO, these modules are going to break, unless a resolution happens. This is an interesting thing to talk about and I wanted to share the POV from me and a few others. Lastly, if we think this issue is bad, imagine how the French Air Force feels right now.
The point is, bar the M2K, they haven't broken. This situation is ridiculous but the drama created by players is equally stupid. I thought DCS was for grownups. Also, Razbam is still selling them.
@@bill8791 Only one patch has happened since it was announced. I am telling you and 3rd party module maker is telling you, that they are on borrowed time. We could be wrong and you could be right but it seems ridiculous to me to dismiss this as non-problem
@@bill8791 ED is selling them, remember, the money all goes to ED first and not Razbam, and the whole issue started because ED supposedly refused to repass any payment from all sales.
comes down to why ED didn't pay Razbam in the first place - if it was because *they didn't have the money*, they are not going to stop selling any modules
ED is the issue though. If you want to know what's really going on, look at the replies under Enigma's comment. I posted about it there. I've known about it for quite a long time and I've kept my mouth shut hoping they would take care of things but it doesn't seem to be happening.
Razbam violated their agreement. But then ED violated it by not paying them which wasn’t a stipulation of Razbams original breach. ED then spent the money. Now they’re pushing modules out the door as fast as they can to try to generate the income to pay them and bring them back into the fold.
@@Enigma89 REDFOR needed you not only to fill in the hugely full fidelity REDFOR module gap, but also to create a benchmark for the upcoming FF 9.12A...
I´m so happy that I was not interested in that Aircraft, but in the same time, I am so sorry for those who are. I can not even imagine how I would feel if this would have happened to the F-4 Phantom. Thus, I really hope for you guys that you'll get the Flogger the one or other way earlier or later, crossing fingers.
@@tenduvaiilsindarin2876 If it doesn't go ahead , to say I'm fkn devastated is an understatement. Been waiting for the flogger since it was first announced over 10+ years ago.
@@xJoshx77 ehh, first announcement 10 years +? I havent hared something like that 10 years ago, just recently when they came up with the very first Screenshots. However, it does not make any difference. It sucks anyways if you wait for a Module and then it´ll be abandoned just because of such Bullshit. As I know how it feels, I´m crossing fingers for you, that you´ll be able to fly it sooner or later.
@@einarabelc5 It goes way deeper than a simpleton fix like that. This isn't the first third party developer to have an issues with ED and a module gets left in the lurch. You might not know about it since it was just one module and it was a trainer aircraft not multiple main aircraft like what is in the lurch now. However the "fix" for the trainer module was seriously trash. If this is just going to continue to be a possibility with other third party developers then ALL third party developed products are suspect for this kind of outcome. If you are happy in throwing your money away hey that is your business. However most people aren't content with spending hard earned money on a product that has the ability to vaporware overnight.
@@Stubbies2003 I do remember the VEAO/Hawk incident and there is one major factor to keep in mind. VEAO only really released on module (and a wildly incomplete one at that). They had planned (and taken money for) another but they self-destructed and intentionally left ED in a bad position in the process. This wasn't the case of an otherwise reliable third party suddenly going bad. It was a bad third party acting in bad faith from day one. The uncomfortable pill for a lot of folks to swallow is that RAZBAM is largely in the same boat. They have more modules under their belt but they also have a well documented history of not acting in good faith. Their leadership has always been unprofessional and their community interaction only really happens in spaces that they have total control over. Even this most recent issue has their lack of basic professionalism written all over it. Some folks say that other third parties like Heatblur, Deka, or Aerges might also have problems but when you consider that unlike RAZBAM (and VEAO before them), they have managed to maintain a calm, professional relationship with both ED and their customers, I think the issue here isn't so much that "it could happen to all third parties" and is instead just that eventually bad third parties will do something stupid and everyone has to pay the price.
@@korniestpatch I would say possibly...and what do I know? ED is kicking major butt here and I trust them to figure out some resolution. Larger picture is that I trust their overall vision for their product (DCS).
The most disturbing part of this is the fact that there is no storefront indication of any issues or potential loss of support for the modules - they are all still on sale as if nothing is going on
ED needs to either remove all Raz modules from the sale site, or at the VERY LEAST, put a visible disclaimer on the sale site warning customers about there being possible instability/issues for the time being. I feel very sorry for anyone that is just now getting into DCS and are walking into a situation like this, especially if they’re getting into it because their favorite aircraft is one of the Raz modules. Not a great first impression for sure.
That could be seen as retaliatory against Razbam. There will also be contracts that state what should and should not be up for sale. The future of ED and Razbams relationship is up in the air, until that's decided either way you'll see business as usual. If Razbam no long wants to work with ED then you'll likely see refunds issued based on a sales date.
I agree completely. Buyer confidence and trust in a company is like the holy grail. Lose it at your peril. Also selling an item that you know is faulty or not fit for purpose can put you in a sticky situation in some countries. I love DCS and I don't care who is at fault, but I would like it sorted out as quickly as possible. These modules are not cheap so I will not be buying any more 3rd party modules until this is sorted.
I’ve heard there is ONE person currently working on all fixes for Razbam. Its hearsay, But its something that popped up when NL mentioned yesterday about M2K fixes coming with today’s patch. I cannot confirm the accuracy of such, but its what i’ve heard amongst the chatter
AFAIK it's being fixed but its the first crack in the facade. It may not be fatal but the next one can be. If ED gave a statement and said they are going to insure the continuation of these modules then this video would not be necessary. The silence is making everyone uneasy
Couldn’t have say it any better there, Enigma. We, as the consumers need a proper “state of the union” address by ED on whats going. It doesn’t help anything either when people started posting about returns on razbam products on the ED storefront.
According to at least one source on RAZBAM’s Discord, ED doesn’t have the source code to ANY of their modules. This would explain why none of them are being fixed and bug complaints are being ignored. If they already had the source code, they could start addressing the bugs.
@@Enigma89 The bugs came from Razbam pushed through untested changes in the last DCS patch that broke the plane. ED confirmed it's getting rolled back to previous working state in todays patch to come. As for the silence, that's expected while both party are mitigating behind the doors. Latest discourse is driven by community members trying to stir up the situation again. Just have to wait till the day both parties come out with press statement. Everything else is speculation.
I am so glad that I tried MSFS out for the first time in December and have switched to playing it after playing DCS for years. I like it so much I haven't had time to go back to DCS. Looks like they have deceptive practices - not sure what the deal is between them and Razbam but going public with the dispute is tragic, and probably made it worse
No one would have man. You just have to trust the company to deliver a product. Same with anything in the world. It sucks, these are the only modules I have lol
@@Kirill_Konovalov THis is precisely what needs to be fixed in some way. If this goes worst case and ED's "answer" is exactly like the hawk module fiasco they will really hurt this platform. I wouldn't be able to invest money in third party modules from this point if that ends up being the case.
I've loved RAZBAM since FSX, and I've bought every one of their DCS modules. I dont want a refund, I want both parties to set aside their pride and come up with a solution, I love the modules and want them to continue.
But RB has done some very questionable things in the past. I remember when they wanted to take the Harrier out of EA and claimed it was feature complete, while it was not even close to feature complete. They just stepped back from that after a massive shitstorm on the forum. Not saying ED is any better, RB is questionable.
Luckily any customer who lives in the EU (or the UK) is entitled to either: 1- The fault being fixed in a timely manor. or 2- A full CASH refund of the defective item. (although the customer can choose to accept store credit if they like) ... Many have already asked for, and received refunds. Big legal issue, which could be met with very stiff fines to ED if they refused.
@@SuperAd1980 That wholly depends on what you signed up for when agreeing to the purchase I'll bet you haven't read the fine print let's say you paid for early access F-15, you knew this when you bought the "early acces" module,.. it's in the friggin description But things don't work, are incomplete Yes, that's why it said "Early Access" So,... You have your early acces F-15, you got exactly what you paid for ...Now tell me where ED went wrong and should give you back your money?
@Nightdare no. EU law states the seller is liable for what they sell to the end customer.... The seller can then argue to get compensation from the manufacturer. The big presidents setting cases were against Microsoft, Google, Apple and Samsung. It's also why ED have been handing out refunds on request.
@@Nightdare Not realy. Contract conditions beeing illegal in the EU (such as the no refund for EA software) are simply invalid in the EU and there is nothing ED can do about it. Except risking their products getting banned from the EU market. Wich would be their death...
4:56 - Anyone living in the EU or the UK can request a refund (including a full cash refund), as EU/UK law specifically requires it... Simply put, if there is no possibility for the module to be "repaired" they "must" allow a refund on request as the paid for service is not being given... There have been MANY who have already got a refund, or chosen to accept store credit through the DCS website.
I feel like the problem is that DCS has no real competitor - you could argue IL-2, but not everyone wants to fly WWII aircraft, or not everyone wants to fly/grind in War Thunder for the jets. Falcon BMS is there, sure, but those guys work for free. I feel as if DCS/ED will *always* outpace their development cycle. In a perfect world, I'd love to see the 3rd party module makers band together to create a competitor to DCS. You'd be working with a newer engine (and not something continually upgraded from 2008), assumedly less bugs, and the benefit of hindsight. You'll know what mistakes not to make. I'm still hella sad about the Flogger. It's one of my favorite jets.
It's definitely part of the problem. ED treats their customers and content creators like trash and puts out broken, incomplete, and inconsistent products and some people think it's amazing because there's no other example of something like this that actually works.
This situation sucks. I am glad you made this video to get the implications out to hopefully a wider audience. And getting anonymous quotes from a third party dev is pretty based and investigative. So much focus on the right or wrong (Pay Razbam), but the reality is that no matter who is at fault, ED is in charge and they are sabotaging their own game and the confidence of every other third party because of this dispute. I can't imagine what would really be worth this to Nick but here we are.
Good job on that video. That 3rd party you quoted is right. Even if ED gets the up to date sourcecode, and even if they somehow find people to work on it, it would take years until they can deliver any significant changes. Taking over code from someone unwilling to give it is a frustrating process, especially if that someone has time to burn documentation and obfuscate things.
Dear ED, fix this issue immediately. I am not buying another module for DCS if this continues and the RB modules become deprecated. Get your act together NOW.
Same. I no longer buy and advise everyone else to do the same until this is resolved in a way that doesn't screw over the customers. (Which isn't going to happen, so we can assume I'm gone as a future customer. Even with WW2 modules like the Corsair and Hellcat coming that I was super-keen on. Not anymore.)
@@iFlyFlightSims Yep. Some rumors their radar coder may have put a "poison pill" into it. (I did the same once, though I got paid just in time to stop it.) Also NineLies said they're trying to fix the code, and as they clearly don't possess the source code, that can only mean they're trying to hack the executable binary, as Russian software crackers do. Nick is likely going to get himself sued right out of business. I predicted ED's downfall a while after Nick took over, after Igor died, and everything started going to sh*t. Frankly, I'm surprised it's taken him this long to fly it into the ground. He's clearly an awful businessman, and person as well.
When this dispute first started I thought it would be settled shortly due to it being in the best interest for all parties. Now, I’m not too sure. Seems like both sides are digging their heels in the sand. This has been going on entirely too long.
I mean I wouldn't say RB is "digging in their heels", they don't have the money to pay their devs because ED won't pay them. You can't make people work for free so until ED starts paying them RB can't really do much.
@@92HazelMocha Scambam used this same excuse when the Hawk Mod went T*ts up in the Snow, when it was entirely Scambams fault because they failed to meet the expectations they agreed to and then wanted to get pissy when they were told they weren't getting paid. Scambam is just living up to the well deserved Moniker they almost got rid of; if only they could actually follow through instead of crying Foul when they are the ones committing the Foul.
DCS has been lacking development so the CEO could maintain his physical warbird collection which he funneled millions from the company for. It's not getting better
To add to your last point, many of these modules are effectively crowdfunded through early release/pre-sales. Whether or not ED (or whomever is responsible) is unable to refund people who preorder games, or even just the ambiguity of it in itself, will have an impact on the ecosystem and third party developers appetite for risk in the future. Like you said, there is not enough information to decide who is at fault and it might not even be that important, but ED's lack of a real response has real effects on the future of DCS.
Easy solution: ED should pay Razbam what they are owed. It's honestly wild seeing people treat "pay people what they are owed" as a "side" that they're afraid to take.
@@tman41291ED isn't paying Razbam for their work. ED isn't working on their game, instead funneling money to the CEO's personal toys. And no, I don't mean his wages. He took out a multimillion dollar "loan" to maintain his personal fleet of warbirds
Anyone remember the Hawk T1-a? They need to get this sorted out fast, whatever issues are going on. A lot of people were excited about the Strike Eagle and love flying it, let alone the Mirage. The people who will suffer the most from this are the fans who shell out all the real money to both companies that keeps them working. Jaded fans do not keep buying your product in this day and age.
Razbam made some of the most popular modules in the game, if future game updates brick them, isnt it foresable that many servers will jist stay on older versions of DCS where they work. Older versions of DCS=no new modules. No new modules=no money for ED. Its not like theirr are any modules that would come close to the F-15E/m2k/mig-19/harrier in popularity coming out anytime soon
You may have missed the F-4 Phantom launch, which was massively hyped and has everyone playing it. Losing the Strike Eagle and the Harrier would be a blow to DCS, but not a death blow, I suspect. The mirage and mig would be less of a drama I think.
I think it needs to be pointed out that it's very, very likely we're not going to get a statement because of the nature of the dispute. This was a contractual dispute, and anybody who's ever worked in the business world knows that when you have a dispute between vendors and the company that hired them, the LAST thing you should ever do is blast it on social media- ESPECIALLY because there are usually clauses in business contracts to prevent exactly that from happening. This needs to be handled by the lawyers and the business units, and sadly that's going to take time while negotiations and discussions are happening. I honestly think the silence is a good sign that talks are still happening, and I'm guessing that ED doesn't want to make ANY statement, given the vitriol from the community when they make statements that don't pan out exactly the way the community thinks it should.
100%. Actually think the statements from (ex-) Razbam devs has only hurt the situation. It sucks, but everyone shutting up until there's concrete answers is probably the best move.
@@inf3243 This so much. The fact that Razbam doesn't seem to be willing to control their own employees, clearly speaking on behalf of the company, running their mouths on the internet tells a lot. Furthermore, nobody here really knows what are the contractual agreements and who does what. Can ED even pull the modules from the store at this point? How can someone claim that without reading the contract first.
This whole situation is sad. I was excited for the mig 23, but if they’ve stopped updating their already existing modules it is likely they stopped updating the mig 23. I don’t personally play DCS right now (learning Il-2 atm) but the mig 23 might have done it for me. The Mig 19 as well, but again, if it is going to wither away I’m not buying it.
I was anxiously awaiting in the MiG 23 too. Now I have to worry about the future of the modules I already own. At the very least ED needs to maintain the existing modules. Or giver everyone their money back. No matter what happens, this is not good for the hobby.
@@christophermcsherry2655I have read Razbam has the source code for all of their modules. I am not literate in anything related to coding but from my limited understanding Razbam is the only group who can update their modules.
@@Megapihar "What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul"
Since this clash started I've only dedicated my gaming hours to enjoying my F-15E while I still can. This dispute will last longer than we think and by then, the 60 dollar plane I paid for will become unplayable
The Mirage 2000 was the first module I purchased. No fear on saying It is top 3 BEST modules by far. It is such a shame to see It being destroyed, with the others, by pure incompetence... I Hope that at least the give Up the money back...
@@ImpendingJoker So what??. Obviously the 90% of the clients are from western countries, and the buy the aircraft they know and love from their airforces, hence the 18 and 16. And those 2 are like, at least, 1 level below de quality of the Mirage. But is just my opinion of course... By way, one example is the simple effect of the Sonic boom, a thing that Mirage has and the 18 and 16 don't...that's without entering the radar, weapons, etc. I also own and love the 18, but yeah...
@@Wildharrier What does that have to do with ~anything? It's a global market and the numbers are the numbers. You're the one that said it was the Top 3 Best by far, all I did is point out that you are statistically incorrect and you blow a gasket. haha
@@ImpendingJoker yep, I said: on my opinion. Obviously is quite subjective. Others will say another top 3, and the stadistics say the most sold are the F-teen series because they are the most loved ones for X reasons(not even checked It), as It should be people as my self buy them. You literally did not read, and impossed something no one was saying it was the rule... Simply saying that under my own experience and critic eye, Mirage 2K was top 3. Hopefully you get It now mate!
In my opinion Eagle Dynamics needs to stop stuffing tech and eye candy into the game engine and work on EXTREME optimization and bug fixes for a while like I'm talking for months just stop and let the module makers catch up. It's crazy that I can play Microsoft Flight Simulator with tons of aircraft and different models running at OVER 100 FPS but in DCS I get like 20 FPS on medium to low settings on the Caucasus map not even gonna mention Persian gulf or Marianas it's why I don't buy as many maps the performance on the newer maps is terrible. Hell Persian gulf still has this issue with the ground going completely black when I'm in the F-18 on the taxiway. (I've reported it 3-4 times already) I have the harrier and the mirage 2000 I'm worried I'm going to lose these modules.
It’s because dcs is a pyramid scheme only kept alive by pumping out new maps and modules. ED has no incentive to pause that effort to work on the core gameplay or code (other than the bare minimum required to merely keep the game viable on mid-high end hardware
Basically, this. Optimizations don't bring money directly, so of course they're lower priority. They're still banking heavily on there not being real direct competition.
Are you using VR? If not, i think you need to optimise your settings. I have a 4070, i get a solid 60FPS on Sinai in the Mirage. If you need, tell me your specs and I’ll see where I can help you.
I’ve never had that issue in the f-18 or any aircraft in any map and I pretty much exclusively fly the Persian gulf map, sounds like a non widespread error to me bud
Everyone should spam refund tokens for Razbam modules to let them know we are not going to play along with shady business practices. Everytime an entity has a monopoly on something they act in this fashion. It seems to be apart of the human condition.
Almost as bad as Windows (File) Explorer's Alzheimer's. That's been diagnosed in 2001 IIRC. That darn thing just is completely incapable of remembering any folder settings properly ever since. And M$ just won't fix it.
@@vincentvoncarnap The MPCD renders most text as white/gray, with many elements using color. ED got it wrong, despite being told it was wrong during the beta testing. (I was a beta tester on LOMAC.)
Thank you for covering this issue, as often your voice is probably the best comment on the question. As a mere player, I don't have nearly as much insight in the under-the-hood stuff but I definitely lost a lot of trust in the perennity of the whole ecosystem. I tend to think all 3rd party devs should have the possibility to have their own store, as Heatblur does, so that my money goes straight to the devs and then back to Ed, not the other way round. I didn't stop playing Razbam modules, in fact my DCS experience was mostly Mirage, then Harrier. For now, I created a second install for my Razbam birds that I intend to keep frozen as a backup. But this can only work for a time. We need to push for a resolution that would at least allow for the already existing modules to be maintained, if not for the continuation of their projects (and I was really eager for that MiG-23).
Hey, thanks for the video Enigma. I have over 10,000 hours flying in DCS. I own the Strike Eagle and the Harrier so if the modules do completely break it will affect me to a moderate amount. However, I'm going to give the problem time to work itself out. There are so many scenarios where all our fears won't materialize. Here are a few off the top of my head. 1. Razbam and DCS could eventually come to terms. 2. DCS could take over support of the Razbam modules. 3. The modules are allowed to wither and die but another 3rd party or DCS themselves make new versions of the modules, all be it way down the road. I could go on but all I'm saying is that it might take years to resolve our concern but I think it's very likely. Being a DCS lover or flight sim lover means a hobby spanning years and decades any ways. Last I want to comment on Razbam saying they are "not getting paid by DCS". It's misleading because it implies Razbam isn't getting paid enough or at all for their modules which is clearly false.
Maybe, we, as module owners should demand refunds for the Razbam modules that are no longer supported. Especially the F-15E as it was JUST released and is getting no love to fix it.
The point you made about there being a potential resolution just over the horizon on the basis that the modules are still for sale without a disclaimer isn’t something I’d considered until now. I also don’t think there’s much wrong with continuing to cover content that isn’t supported, so long as anything new comes with a disclaimer. Though Casmo probably has more reach than most and I guess it’s still an issue for older content, so props to him for thinking of the bigger picture. Your server does have the MiG-19, which is Razbam property, so you may soon have to tackle a similar situation to what’s happening with the Mirage. My hope is that the situation is resolved and things go back to how they were, the worst case is that we have another Hawk situation and all trace of the modules get wiped from the sim. I expect what happens will be somewhere between those two things, and the more towards “back to normal” you lean, the more naive I think you’re being.
The content side of things here is unique in that you are potentially turning people to buy a module that is unsupported and will be dropped soon in the worst case with potentially no direct refunds.
I am an engineer. What I do know is that when you stop paying vendors, you’re usually in trouble. I didn’t know they’re still on sale… so that’s another data point…
@@flightkimulator9612you’re an engineer idk if you’re an independent contractor or not but if you hadn’t been paid for work you’ve done wouldn’t YOU be suing for wages? The same basic thing you’re saying about ED and libel can be flipped back on Razbam about their income.
I feel like you've touched the most important DCS problem, ED keeps adding modules and maps, wrapping it all in a nice graphics improvement but they are barely touching the broken aspects or the non developed parts of the DC world. Combined Armes 15 yo models and logic, Carriers, ATC, IFF, SAR, AI Issues. They are working on bringing early access stuff to fiture complete level and are not improving the 'World', the sandbox that is the true reason we love this sim so much.
This actually hurts my soul. If the razbam modules get pulled/continue unsupported I will forever lose faith in ED and they will never see another one of my dollars
If you would like to preserve your F-15E videos, while mitigating the risk that they may convince a viewer to purchase a deprecated product, it may be best to put a pinned comment on them, explaining the current situation. Something like, “As a result of an ongoing dispute between Razbam and Eagle Dynamics, this module is no longer being supported and updated. DCS is an evolving game that is frequently updated. With each DCS update, more game-altering bugs accumulate within Razbam modules. Unless this dispute is resolved, these modules will eventually fall into disrepair and cease to function.”
I've postponed learning the Harrier that I got years ago and just started learning it a few weeks back, and now I'm thinking I might not even be able to utilise it to its fullest before it eventually breaks...
A very well thought through commentary on the situation. My opinion is that these modules should not be currently for sale - given the learning curve, by the time you notice that the module is malfunctioning due to lack of maintenance, your period for refund will already have passed (speaking as a Steam player). As a software developer - that DCS is "a buggy mess" is not surprising given the immense complexity. That, however, means that constant maintenance, patches, and updates by the module developers are *crucial*. And even *if* the issue gets resolved amicably, the amount of catch-up that RAZBAM needs to do in order to get the modules patched to the current version of DCS may be quite prohibitive. ED having access to the sourcecode also is mostly irrelevant - unless RAZBAM has documented everything to the smallest detail (and even then), you can't just look at their code and continue where they left off. It would take serious manpower and time to understand WTF is happening and why. Basically, as a customer? I paid money. I don't care who is at fault. Get it sorted out. :)
Agreed on ALL points - you sir aren't "dumb" even though you referred to yourself as such, you have an intelligently conveyed set of points here, you obviously have put a lot of thought into this video, and just because your skillset isn't in creation, doesn't mean you aren't intelligent. I appreciate the way you posed the important questions here. Tough spot for many of us to be in, from customers, partners, content creators who have a vested interest in keeping a good relationship with ED so they can't say much....etc
I'm cautiously optimistic. The F-15E is my favorite aircraft, and my favorite module thus far (until days from now when the OH-58 comes out). The implications of this are pretty grim, if Razbam and ED continue to fight, or sever ties, they need to disclose that ASAP. If they do kiss and make up, I hope it happens sooner rather than later so we can have some outlook to the future. My hope is that cooler heads prevail and they bury the hatchet and continue to make good content on both ends. I want Razbam to be successful, I want the F-15E and their other modules to live on.
I don't think Razbam will stop working on DCS as a whole, as they're still the Armee De l'Air's training module provider. Maybe this has changed over the years? I highly doubt they'd want to jeopardize that part of their business.
Regardless of whose fault it is, ED is the owner of the game, and it's in their best interest to resolve the matter. The problem is indeed one of loss of faith/confidence. Firstly, we're talking about hundreds of dollars worth of modules that people may have purchased which are going to inexorably decay unless maintained. One such module, the F-15E, is very recent and was thoroughly hyped. Secondly, they're still being sold. And thirdly, the most insidious factor, is that it casts doubt in the longevity of practically every third party module: if ED cannot be trusted to keep some measure of control and operability of DCS' third party content, from now on a chunk of previously loyal fans are going to think purchases twice. Sudden module death was never considered a possibility before this incident.
I'm stuck on the last 2.8 version as the 2.9 (NVIDIA) update broke the ground / building rendering for my NVIDIA Titan X(p) - ED didn't give aff when I posted my error report. So who cares - all my Razbam modules still work with 2.8 - not buying anymore maps or modules. I have every module and map sold prior to 2.9 and many many mods working flawlessly in 2.8, so RIP DCS.
I think the content creators can just say something in the intro. Like: „Hey guys, today i‘ll show … keep in mind that the future of the module is uncertain“. That is an honest statement, that helps the viewers and doesn‘t decrease the content quality.
The problem isn't new content. It's old ones from like 2 or 3 years ago. Like whole entire guide series for example by the grim reapers that pop up when you type "DCS Mirage 2000C" on youtube search.
To be honest ED need to sort this ASAP. To me this serves as a warning. I am comfortable investing in the F4 so I did but I have a lot of Razbam's modules and this has me questioning whether or not I continue to invest in DCS and its modules moving forwards. I love my helicopters and I'm psyched for the Kiowa but looking at the Razbam situation I now have you question whether or not it's wise to invest in anymore modules.
ED very much needs to make a no-BS statement about what’s happening, because this potentially affects every 3rd party module. Agreed that continuing to sell Razbam modules without a warning about the lack of support is very shady.
I am one of those who likes to buy a game / module and then play it. That means I currently have multiple versions of games on my desktops/servers to include FC2, DCS World 1.2, DCS 1.5.7, DCS 1.5.8, DCS 2.0, DCS 2.5.6, and a retail Open Beta installation. I was very upset when ED chose to scrap multiple versions on Steam because of this. But I learned that if you enjoy a game, make sure you take actions to preserve it because developers tend to constantly break it when they think they are adding or fixing something. And Blizzard was a great teacher of that how they broke World of Warcraft Wrath of the Lich King and the tens of millions of subscribers dropped down to single digit millions and they just ignored that they killed the popularity. And then DCS did this when they make upgrades that break compatibility either with a module or pc hardware and then ignore it. The community of DCS responded the same way as WoW did of how the game is an ever evolving game and it is tough for you that you lose the ability to play what you paid for because the game evolved and ignored the compatibility issue. With ED, before I saw them do this, I was buying everything they sold and multiple copies as I love playing with my nephews and nieces along with my wife and kids. I spent tens of thousands of dollars to ED. After they educated me, I have very reluctant to buy one much less multiple copies of modules for DCS since. Even though I do love the Razbam Harrier and Mirage, I remember Razbam from FSX/TacPack days. They still sell their FSX/TacPack modules at full price today. They are very reluctant to go on sale.
Even without a dispute between a module maker and the platform, module makers will gradually lessen support for their modules (Natural, they have other projects to work on to continue making money). If a module is considered essentially complete and acceptably bug free as of a certain date, I think it's fair for the module maker to give it very little time and attention. It becomes the responsibility of the platform to not break anything. ie maintain backwards compatibility with older modules. Even without the module source code, if you've made a game engine change that has caused a problem with a module, that should be reversable even without the module makers assistance. Of course this is a very different situation if the product is still being sold in an early acces state and there has been no comuniction to say it will never get finished.
For me, transparency is key here. Both parties need to be transparent with their PAYING customers (wether ED paid or not to RB, these are still paid modules). After that, the community as a whole can decide or even pressure one side or the other to take action one way or the other. If they don’t take action, and knowing who decided to do what, then we can decide to: A. Stop buying RB products B. Stop buying ED products C. Wait for a possible solution The problem here is that ED (more than RB) are quiet about this while still profiting from modules “in contempt” and with a shady future. So, for sure, stop selling those modules until they resolve issues, because they are appearing a money-greedy scammers selling a product for which they have no chance of giving support.
I really wish we knew more and had more evidence. If razbams accusations of not getting paid for 8 months are correct then I’ll side with them. But since we know nothing it’s all just in limbo. I agree the models should not be sold. Man it’s it’s a mess
I don’t get why anyone is taking sides. We know nothing about what is going on other than a rant post from a Razban employee and a vague statement from ED.
The problem is that many of us are highly invested in the sim - thousands in hardware and a lot in software. Personally, taking the ball and going home isn't an option as there is no other way i can use my hardware. So all i can do is hope they figure it out and we can move on.
"ends only way with razbam modules going away, If razbam is not on the scene no one can maintain their code". 20+ year dev/lead/manager in this industry here. the above statement is absolutely a bold one and to me also unprofessional if it comes from someone with development experience. let's focus first on the modules which can be considered in a final state and feature complete like the mig19, av8b, m2000. There are no new features to develop on that codebase and, very likely, the things that will break at each update (for API changes, etc) will be small ones. we just saw that with the crying about the 6g/9g limiter. fixed silently in the patch, quickly and pointly, something that could have broken anyway and most likely would have broken. for the f15e it's a very different picture and yes, for that one I don't see any future at all, in the best scenario it could be simply maintained at it's current state. the mig23 is also probably DoA. the only question pending and that ultimately is important is "is ED legally eligible to acquire their code", if yes then people should stop drama, again. Code is code, if access is granted it will be maintained as long as it is profitable, it's a simple cost/benefit equation. finally, let's stay calm and avoid sophistic dialectic exercises like "there is more than a 0% chance of this modules rotting away". of course there is, like there is more than a 0% chance of being hit by a boeing 737 while you're sitting on a bench eating a sandwich. don't expect to ED being sharing every week an update on the ED vs RB situation, that's not how companies work, it's not a social media or discord chat. again, the only thing that matters is "does ED have a legal leverage to have that codebase", if they do then the "feature complete" modules are in very good shape, if they don't, well, not in good shape at all. this is a simple professional analysis, I will ignore that the modules are still being sold, that content creators do what they do, etc. it's just code. ps: the fact that the 6/9g limiter was fixed means that "someone" that has access to the code apllied the fix and that it was not disclosed in the patch is free to speculation.
True, but any customer who lives in the EU (or the UK) is entitled to either: 1- The fault being fixed in a timely manor. or 2- A full CASH refund of the defective item. (although the customer can choose to accept store credit if they like) ... Many have already asked for, and received refunds. Big legal issue, which could be met with very stiff fines to ED if they refused.
As a Tool dev (DCS Briefing Room) we aren't too affected by this issue although at some point we will have to develop a toggle for orphaned modules. In the end if ED has the source code or gets it (say razbam sells it and walks away). Its going to be very hard for ED to fix bugs on it let alone develop the modules. Given EDs reputation of making one post on something then never speaking of it again (SUPER CARRIER FEATURES). Its likely that in EDs hands they will be minimally functional at least in the medium term. I'm assuming Razbam has no rights to pull the module from sale then ED is just milking what is left. IMO it seems the ball is in EDs court to budge or loose a major number of playable aircraft and risk legal action from Razbam and others.
Did not know anything about this until now, which is PER SE a horrific thing (no disclamer at all). I bought the Strike Eagle three weeks ago, and quite honestly, if all of that is going to get real, I want my damn money back. Cause for me, that's fraud.
this was something that always felt weird about DCS with the outsourced development and am not surprised that something like this happens. i got the harrier and mirage so obviously didn't take it too serious.
It’s a tough call. Because at the end of it all, DCS is a business. ED works with other companies to create content for its world. Whenever money is involved, relationships can go sour. It’s a shame. Personally I hope it can get resolved because I really like the strike eagle
The South Atlantic map is fully supported and is being updated / further developed with new features and enhancements as per the last patch and also the content that I have done for the next ED patch date
Wether or not it is Razbam’s fault doesn’t make ED look any better. Unless I am mistaken it is ED’s choice to leave Razbam’s modules up with no warning on what could happen to them if this doesn’t get resolved soon. I’d be real surprised if just one party is at fault here.
I think that it is 100% ED’s responsibility to fix this problem and pay Razbam if they owe them any remuneration for Razbam’s work. ED have responsibilities to all the people who are using their product so in my humble opinion there shouldn’t even be such situation as it is. If ED doesn’t want to work with Razbam anymore - they should’ve buy out all the sources from the 3rd party developer and support the existing modules by themselves. Of course I don’t have all the information so it is only my judgment as a user, nothing more.
@@dfpoor are you were holding the candle when Razbam stolen something from ED? Only Razbam and ED have information so please stop saying your opinion as if it’s a 100% truth.
This is kind of on brand for Razbam though. They left a lot of bugs for their stuff in FSX/P3D. The only people I feel sorry for here is Metal2Mesh. This is the second time they've hooked their cart to the wrong horse. They got screwed by Milviz on the F-15E they made for FSX when there was a proposal to update the cockpit for the existing release as a payware addon. Milviz pulled out and M2M went at it on their own to bring the new version to the simulator, this is when they initially partnered with Razbam, and it has been downhill ever since. The only Razbam module I own is the Harrier and I am very glad it was only that one that a spent money on. So none of this is a surprise to me as I've been in the simulation community for quite literally decades across all the major platforms.
Damn… I bought the Mirage this weekend without knowing about the G Limiter bug. :/ Was planning on getting to grips with it this weekend… now I’ll just let it collect dust so I don’t fall in love with something that may get moth balled.
According to other channels POV, ED can't remove the the modules from the sale site, since this would imply breaking their contractual obligations with Raz, and as things are right now, ED might want to be as lawful as possible.
If ED simply let Razbam see their share of the money the customers are paying for their development assets, we would not have this problem. It's unreasonable to expect anyone to work for free. The customers aren't paying Razbam's bills anymore, because ED is pocketing all the money
5:52 Wow. What a move. Maybe it's good that I haven't found enough time to invest into the Strike Eagle yet, but this is really a sad thing going on. I totally hope this will get resolved somehow. 6:16 Valid thoughts and that's why I think the stuff should be kept up eventually. But putting some slight pressure on the whole situation (just not too much!) might not be the worst idea to have.
Well there is Falcon BMS and if these module makers don't want to deal with the shody business practices of ED with DCS I bet Micropros's Falcon team would be more than happy to work with them and make a new Modern combat flight sim from the ground up.
There's a couple giant red flags with this situation: 1) Razbam REFUSED to acknowledge the nature of the issue. The CEO tried to dump the drama on the community and stir a fire. Which didn't happen. They hoped the community would create a dirty enough situation to have ED concede whatever they wanted to get. This is a HUGE issue. 2) Razbam has a shady past. Known as Razscam, they've not always been the good developer people knew recently. Sure ED is no saint either, but their response was calm, fair and correct. All this tells me that Razbam did a big legal oopsie and they're trying to weasel their way out rather than protecting their customers.
Exactly this. Those of us coming from FSX/P3D know how shady Razbam has always been, and sadly once again M2M is getting shafted by another company despite making some of the most realistic models in flight simulation. M2M needs to work directly for ED and tell Razbam to go pound sand.
No. The issue is they haven't been paid for F-15e sales for nearly a year BEFORE anything was said publicly. If ED felt they were in contract violation, why did they promote and continue (and STILL continue) to sell the module for a year now? Why did they send a small payment of the amount owed shortly before the announcement if RB was in some violation? Please go read all the information out there and at least don't take EDs side on face value alone. Failing all of that and RB is 100% to blame - why are their modules STILL for sale?
So its calm, fair and correct to continue selling modules that there is no support for and the developers have said unless ED pays them, they'll not be returning? Lick that boot a bit more.
Mig-19 is broken too. It won't start on the ground unless you use the auto start sequence. Manual start won't take the throttle out of the cut detent anymore.
Oof, I feel shat on for having bought stuff that will now be broken. But it didn’t even realise they were still for sale and there will be people buying a broken product that will never get fixed, without them knowing it (in time)
Either way, we need to take a stand and let Ed know that we won't expect to get the short end of the stick. The hawk already told us how this will go if Ed doesn't pay.
I think there is also a possiblity that steam might also be part of the problem they don't usually offer refunds over a certain period of time and they might be making things difficult for ED to make a complete statement until the matter is resolved.
Mirage 2000 was my first full fidelity module. Bought it even before the F18 was intruduced to DCS. I basically abandoned it after the release of the F14. The mirage module never felt fully complete and it took the ages to add stuff. Seems like it was a good idea to not thouch anymore Razbam modules after that. Remember how shitty the Mig 19 was when released. It flew like an F15.
The mirage 2000 has been complete for a few years now. It's not a hornet or viper, it won't have tons of weapons to choose from or multirol capability within the same mission, but the module itself is complete
I submitted a ticket a few days ago and just got a refund approved (and store credited) yesterday on the sale-priced F-15E I purchased in early April. I had been busy learning some other modules, so hadn't even had a chance to use it, but the very real possibility/probability that RB/ED were not going to reach a resolution and the module would become unsupported was the core of my argument that an exception to ED's "no refunds" policy should be granted for this (and potentially other) RB products. The fact that they granted my request should be a seriously considered indicator that things are not going well.
Man I’m feeling mad cheated by this. I purchased the F-15e because it was well known that big updates and fixes were planned for it. And I wanted to fly it. But I stepped away from the game for a while due to work constraints. Now I’m back in and find out that this is the only version I’m going to get. No more updates, patches, fixes. I’m ashamed.
Imo tbh ED looks like an idiot for staying quiet. they're making it look like they're milking the modules for money because they're not taking them down and keeping quiet. my stand goes with 3rd party creators as all evidence points toward ED. its all about transparency.
The fact that they are still for sale is criminal. I have 3 razbam aircraft and I'm willing to sue both parties if mommy abs daddy don't get their shit together.
It's beyond ridiculous now. ED forum moderators already started to penalize people for speaking up on th forums about this huge mess! Staying silent for months will definitely harm ED. There are already a lot of people leaving the sim because they feel fooled by ED. ED is killing themselves with their politics! We're all loosing our trust in ED because of their lack of communication. Now it feels like all of those "thank you for being the most passionate community" have been nothing more than empty words in every 202X and beyond videos. The fact that these broken modules are still on sale makes it look like ED wants to milk the players until the very end of the whole DCS simulator. It's been a great time for me with DCS for was more than a decade but now I'm also loosing faith and I'm going to sell my hardware and quit DCS permanently.
G-Limiter, fix or no fix, is one issue representative of the much larger problem. These modules are on borrowed time and the community is figuring out what is the best way to navigate this until a resolution comes. At some point, IMHO, these modules are going to break, unless a resolution happens. This is an interesting thing to talk about and I wanted to share the POV from me and a few others. Lastly, if we think this issue is bad, imagine how the French Air Force feels right now.
The point is, bar the M2K, they haven't broken. This situation is ridiculous but the drama created by players is equally stupid. I thought DCS was for grownups. Also, Razbam is still selling them.
@@bill8791 "I thought DCS was for grownups"
You must be new here.
@@bill8791 Only one patch has happened since it was announced. I am telling you and 3rd party module maker is telling you, that they are on borrowed time. We could be wrong and you could be right but it seems ridiculous to me to dismiss this as non-problem
@@bill8791 ED is selling them, remember, the money all goes to ED first and not Razbam, and the whole issue started because ED supposedly refused to repass any payment from all sales.
@@bill8791Just because they haven’t broken yet doesn’t mean they won’t. The M2K could be first of more problems.
Sim games try not to have internal infighting challenge (impossible)
At least its not like classified file drops by the chunder thunder community 🤣
@@WardogDCS i know u want them too
@@chaos..... well, its good entertainment when it does happen !
@@WardogDCSdidn't a DCS dev get caught trying to smuggle a F-16 manual though?
@@Osean_KittyIt was a very different model than the one in-game, in fairness.
ED needs to stop selling the modules ASAP no matter who is to blame, until the dispute is solved.
Here here!🔔
This! 100% this!
comes down to why ED didn't pay Razbam in the first place - if it was because *they didn't have the money*, they are not going to stop selling any modules
ED is the issue though. If you want to know what's really going on, look at the replies under Enigma's comment. I posted about it there. I've known about it for quite a long time and I've kept my mouth shut hoping they would take care of things but it doesn't seem to be happening.
Razbam violated their agreement. But then ED violated it by not paying them which wasn’t a stipulation of Razbams original breach. ED then spent the money. Now they’re pushing modules out the door as fast as they can to try to generate the income to pay them and bring them back into the fold.
RIP Mig-23, REDFOR needed you
Real
@@Enigma89 REDFOR needed you not only to fill in the hugely full fidelity REDFOR module gap, but also to create a benchmark for the upcoming FF 9.12A...
I´m so happy that I was not interested in that Aircraft, but in the same time, I am so sorry for those who are. I can not even imagine how I would feel if this would have happened to the F-4 Phantom. Thus, I really hope for you guys that you'll get the Flogger the one or other way earlier or later, crossing fingers.
@@tenduvaiilsindarin2876 If it doesn't go ahead , to say I'm fkn devastated is an understatement. Been waiting for the flogger since it was first announced over 10+ years ago.
@@xJoshx77 ehh, first announcement 10 years +? I havent hared something like that 10 years ago, just recently when they came up with the very first Screenshots. However, it does not make any difference. It sucks anyways if you wait for a Module and then it´ll be abandoned just because of such Bullshit. As I know how it feels, I´m crossing fingers for you, that you´ll be able to fly it sooner or later.
You said it well..."This hurts everyone". I urge ED and Razbam to work this out...Full stop.
Just stop using the product, problem solved.
@@einarabelc5 It goes way deeper than a simpleton fix like that. This isn't the first third party developer to have an issues with ED and a module gets left in the lurch. You might not know about it since it was just one module and it was a trainer aircraft not multiple main aircraft like what is in the lurch now. However the "fix" for the trainer module was seriously trash. If this is just going to continue to be a possibility with other third party developers then ALL third party developed products are suspect for this kind of outcome.
If you are happy in throwing your money away hey that is your business. However most people aren't content with spending hard earned money on a product that has the ability to vaporware overnight.
@@Stubbies2003 I do remember the VEAO/Hawk incident and there is one major factor to keep in mind. VEAO only really released on module (and a wildly incomplete one at that). They had planned (and taken money for) another but they self-destructed and intentionally left ED in a bad position in the process. This wasn't the case of an otherwise reliable third party suddenly going bad. It was a bad third party acting in bad faith from day one.
The uncomfortable pill for a lot of folks to swallow is that RAZBAM is largely in the same boat. They have more modules under their belt but they also have a well documented history of not acting in good faith. Their leadership has always been unprofessional and their community interaction only really happens in spaces that they have total control over. Even this most recent issue has their lack of basic professionalism written all over it.
Some folks say that other third parties like Heatblur, Deka, or Aerges might also have problems but when you consider that unlike RAZBAM (and VEAO before them), they have managed to maintain a calm, professional relationship with both ED and their customers, I think the issue here isn't so much that "it could happen to all third parties" and is instead just that eventually bad third parties will do something stupid and everyone has to pay the price.
My first thought was, well so theres no security if i buy any of the 3rd party planes.
@@korniestpatch I would say possibly...and what do I know? ED is kicking major butt here and I trust them to figure out some resolution. Larger picture is that I trust their overall vision for their product (DCS).
The most disturbing part of this is the fact that there is no storefront indication of any issues or potential loss of support for the modules - they are all still on sale as if nothing is going on
Real
Pretty sure that was the case with the Hawk when that mess happened
@@egoterrorist havent heard that name in awile..hawk
A lawsuit in the making.
They likely feel safe behind their many shells
ED needs to either remove all Raz modules from the sale site, or at the VERY LEAST, put a visible disclaimer on the sale site warning customers about there being possible instability/issues for the time being. I feel very sorry for anyone that is just now getting into DCS and are walking into a situation like this, especially if they’re getting into it because their favorite aircraft is one of the Raz modules. Not a great first impression for sure.
That could be seen as retaliatory against Razbam. There will also be contracts that state what should and should not be up for sale. The future of ED and Razbams relationship is up in the air, until that's decided either way you'll see business as usual. If Razbam no long wants to work with ED then you'll likely see refunds issued based on a sales date.
Yup that's me. Was thinking about buying the 15E but ummmmmm
I agree completely. Buyer confidence and trust in a company is like the holy grail. Lose it at your peril. Also selling an item that you know is faulty or not fit for purpose can put you in a sticky situation in some countries. I love DCS and I don't care who is at fault, but I would like it sorted out as quickly as possible. These modules are not cheap so I will not be buying any more 3rd party modules until this is sorted.
me after buyng f15e :c
@@Shadris i've heard people say it's a very solid module where it's currently at. Better just hope its code doesn't ever need updating lol
I’ve heard there is ONE person currently working on all fixes for Razbam. Its hearsay, But its something that popped up when NL mentioned yesterday about M2K fixes coming with today’s patch. I cannot confirm the accuracy of such, but its what i’ve heard amongst the chatter
AFAIK it's being fixed but its the first crack in the facade. It may not be fatal but the next one can be. If ED gave a statement and said they are going to insure the continuation of these modules then this video would not be necessary. The silence is making everyone uneasy
Couldn’t have say it any better there, Enigma. We, as the consumers need a proper “state of the union” address by ED on whats going.
It doesn’t help anything either when people started posting about returns on razbam products on the ED storefront.
According to at least one source on RAZBAM’s Discord, ED doesn’t have the source code to ANY of their modules. This would explain why none of them are being fixed and bug complaints are being ignored. If they already had the source code, they could start addressing the bugs.
@@Enigma89 The bugs came from Razbam pushed through untested changes in the last DCS patch that broke the plane. ED confirmed it's getting rolled back to previous working state in todays patch to come.
As for the silence, that's expected while both party are mitigating behind the doors. Latest discourse is driven by community members trying to stir up the situation again. Just have to wait till the day both parties come out with press statement. Everything else is speculation.
What I've heard ED won't continue the SE even if they have the source code only ti maintain to simply able to run as the DCS get updated.
The mirage is my favorite jet, and this whole scenario hurts
I am so glad that I tried MSFS out for the first time in December and have switched to playing it after playing DCS for years. I like it so much I haven't had time to go back to DCS. Looks like they have deceptive practices - not sure what the deal is between them and Razbam but going public with the dispute is tragic, and probably made it worse
The sale on all Razbam's modules should be on hold, period.
I would never pre-order the F15E if I knew this kind of shenanigans would ever happen.
No one would have man. You just have to trust the company to deliver a product. Same with anything in the world. It sucks, these are the only modules I have lol
For real. I have had the F-15E since launch and haven't flown it once.
I’m not shocked that it has come to this after razbams shit show of a 15e launch.
This kind if shenanigans can happen with absolutely any 3rd party in dcs. Sadly. Anyday.
@@Kirill_Konovalov THis is precisely what needs to be fixed in some way. If this goes worst case and ED's "answer" is exactly like the hawk module fiasco they will really hurt this platform. I wouldn't be able to invest money in third party modules from this point if that ends up being the case.
I've loved RAZBAM since FSX, and I've bought every one of their DCS modules. I dont want a refund, I want both parties to set aside their pride and come up with a solution, I love the modules and want them to continue.
But RB has done some very questionable things in the past. I remember when they wanted to take the Harrier out of EA and claimed it was feature complete, while it was not even close to feature complete. They just stepped back from that after a massive shitstorm on the forum. Not saying ED is any better, RB is questionable.
Luckily any customer who lives in the EU (or the UK) is entitled to either:
1- The fault being fixed in a timely manor.
or 2- A full CASH refund of the defective item. (although the customer can choose to accept store credit if they like)
... Many have already asked for, and received refunds. Big legal issue, which could be met with very stiff fines to ED if they refused.
@@SuperAd1980
That wholly depends on what you signed up for when agreeing to the purchase
I'll bet you haven't read the fine print
let's say you paid for early access F-15, you knew this when you bought the "early acces" module,.. it's in the friggin description
But things don't work, are incomplete
Yes, that's why it said "Early Access"
So,... You have your early acces F-15, you got exactly what you paid for ...Now tell me where ED went wrong and should give you back your money?
@Nightdare no. EU law states the seller is liable for what they sell to the end customer....
The seller can then argue to get compensation from the manufacturer.
The big presidents setting cases were against Microsoft, Google, Apple and Samsung.
It's also why ED have been handing out refunds on request.
@@Nightdare Not realy. Contract conditions beeing illegal in the EU (such as the no refund for EA software) are simply invalid in the EU and there is nothing ED can do about it. Except risking their products getting banned from the EU market. Wich would be their death...
4:56 - Anyone living in the EU or the UK can request a refund (including a full cash refund), as EU/UK law specifically requires it... Simply put, if there is no possibility for the module to be "repaired" they "must" allow a refund on request as the paid for service is not being given...
There have been MANY who have already got a refund, or chosen to accept store credit through the DCS website.
I feel like the problem is that DCS has no real competitor - you could argue IL-2, but not everyone wants to fly WWII aircraft, or not everyone wants to fly/grind in War Thunder for the jets. Falcon BMS is there, sure, but those guys work for free. I feel as if DCS/ED will *always* outpace their development cycle.
In a perfect world, I'd love to see the 3rd party module makers band together to create a competitor to DCS. You'd be working with a newer engine (and not something continually upgraded from 2008), assumedly less bugs, and the benefit of hindsight. You'll know what mistakes not to make.
I'm still hella sad about the Flogger. It's one of my favorite jets.
It's definitely part of the problem. ED treats their customers and content creators like trash and puts out broken, incomplete, and inconsistent products and some people think it's amazing because there's no other example of something like this that actually works.
This! 👍🏻👏🏻💪🏻🍻🍻
This situation sucks. I am glad you made this video to get the implications out to hopefully a wider audience. And getting anonymous quotes from a third party dev is pretty based and investigative. So much focus on the right or wrong (Pay Razbam), but the reality is that no matter who is at fault, ED is in charge and they are sabotaging their own game and the confidence of every other third party because of this dispute. I can't imagine what would really be worth this to Nick but here we are.
Ridiculous situation, even for ED standards.
This is because mostly of razbam cripples
Good job on that video.
That 3rd party you quoted is right.
Even if ED gets the up to date sourcecode, and even if they somehow find people to work on it, it would take years until they can deliver any significant changes.
Taking over code from someone unwilling to give it is a frustrating process, especially if that someone has time to burn documentation and obfuscate things.
exactly - just look at the mess with KSP2 and trying to reuse code, esp without the input of the prior devs
... I didn't realise I have 80% of the Razbam modules listed... I guess it is time to looking for another flight sim...
Dear ED, fix this issue immediately. I am not buying another module for DCS if this continues and the RB modules become deprecated. Get your act together NOW.
Same. I no longer buy and advise everyone else to do the same until this is resolved in a way that doesn't screw over the customers. (Which isn't going to happen, so we can assume I'm gone as a future customer. Even with WW2 modules like the Corsair and Hellcat coming that I was super-keen on. Not anymore.)
Same, I will not buy anything for DCS until resolved.
And here we are. The Strike Eagle passed away this morning with its radar.
@@iFlyFlightSims Yep. Some rumors their radar coder may have put a "poison pill" into it. (I did the same once, though I got paid just in time to stop it.) Also NineLies said they're trying to fix the code, and as they clearly don't possess the source code, that can only mean they're trying to hack the executable binary, as Russian software crackers do.
Nick is likely going to get himself sued right out of business. I predicted ED's downfall a while after Nick took over, after Igor died, and everything started going to sh*t. Frankly, I'm surprised it's taken him this long to fly it into the ground. He's clearly an awful businessman, and person as well.
When this dispute first started I thought it would be settled shortly due to it being in the best interest for all parties. Now, I’m not too sure. Seems like both sides are digging their heels in the sand. This has been going on entirely too long.
I mean I wouldn't say RB is "digging in their heels", they don't have the money to pay their devs because ED won't pay them. You can't make people work for free so until ED starts paying them RB can't really do much.
@@92HazelMocha Scambam used this same excuse when the Hawk Mod went T*ts up in the Snow, when it was entirely Scambams fault because they failed to meet the expectations they agreed to and then wanted to get pissy when they were told they weren't getting paid. Scambam is just living up to the well deserved Moniker they almost got rid of; if only they could actually follow through instead of crying Foul when they are the ones committing the Foul.
DCS has been lacking development so the CEO could maintain his physical warbird collection which he funneled millions from the company for. It's not getting better
To add to your last point, many of these modules are effectively crowdfunded through early release/pre-sales. Whether or not ED (or whomever is responsible) is unable to refund people who preorder games, or even just the ambiguity of it in itself, will have an impact on the ecosystem and third party developers appetite for risk in the future. Like you said, there is not enough information to decide who is at fault and it might not even be that important, but ED's lack of a real response has real effects on the future of DCS.
Easy solution: ED should pay Razbam what they are owed.
It's honestly wild seeing people treat "pay people what they are owed" as a "side" that they're afraid to take.
News update: Now it’s over! The Strike Eagle is broken.
We lost the Hawk this way years ago.
So is it ED being problematic and dirty? Or were the hawk devs causing issues?
@tman41291 I think with the hawk, it was clear that the devs were not completely clean
The Hawk is completely unrelated. VEAO shut down because they got sued for property theft.
@@tman41291ED isn't paying Razbam for their work. ED isn't working on their game, instead funneling money to the CEO's personal toys. And no, I don't mean his wages. He took out a multimillion dollar "loan" to maintain his personal fleet of warbirds
@@rjt2291 Regardless, ED didn't pick up the Hawk.
It was patched out and lost.
Anyone remember the Hawk T1-a?
They need to get this sorted out fast, whatever issues are going on. A lot of people were excited about the Strike Eagle and love flying it, let alone the Mirage. The people who will suffer the most from this are the fans who shell out all the real money to both companies that keeps them working. Jaded fans do not keep buying your product in this day and age.
Razbam made some of the most popular modules in the game, if future game updates brick them, isnt it foresable that many servers will jist stay on older versions of DCS where they work. Older versions of DCS=no new modules. No new modules=no money for ED. Its not like theirr are any modules that would come close to the F-15E/m2k/mig-19/harrier in popularity coming out anytime soon
And ED doesn't upgrade the core game, so not like any core game updates would be important enough to drop the 3rd most bought plane in the game
+ The Mig-23, long wait ahead...
@@ZeSpektrum the mig-23 was being made by razbam
@@sageg58 Yes, long wait ahead with the uncertainty if and when the work continues with it.
You may have missed the F-4 Phantom launch, which was massively hyped and has everyone playing it.
Losing the Strike Eagle and the Harrier would be a blow to DCS, but not a death blow, I suspect. The mirage and mig would be less of a drama I think.
I think it needs to be pointed out that it's very, very likely we're not going to get a statement because of the nature of the dispute. This was a contractual dispute, and anybody who's ever worked in the business world knows that when you have a dispute between vendors and the company that hired them, the LAST thing you should ever do is blast it on social media- ESPECIALLY because there are usually clauses in business contracts to prevent exactly that from happening.
This needs to be handled by the lawyers and the business units, and sadly that's going to take time while negotiations and discussions are happening.
I honestly think the silence is a good sign that talks are still happening, and I'm guessing that ED doesn't want to make ANY statement, given the vitriol from the community when they make statements that don't pan out exactly the way the community thinks it should.
100%. Actually think the statements from (ex-) Razbam devs has only hurt the situation. It sucks, but everyone shutting up until there's concrete answers is probably the best move.
@@inf3243 This so much. The fact that Razbam doesn't seem to be willing to control their own employees, clearly speaking on behalf of the company, running their mouths on the internet tells a lot.
Furthermore, nobody here really knows what are the contractual agreements and who does what. Can ED even pull the modules from the store at this point? How can someone claim that without reading the contract first.
Last I heard, most of the devs left Razbam, it's not getting fixed.
Yep, hard to work for free when you have to put food on the table. I lost trust in ED to do anything right.
Yes, but they also stated to come back and finish the Strike Eagle once RB gets payed.
This whole situation is sad. I was excited for the mig 23, but if they’ve stopped updating their already existing modules it is likely they stopped updating the mig 23. I don’t personally play DCS right now (learning Il-2 atm) but the mig 23 might have done it for me. The Mig 19 as well, but again, if it is going to wither away I’m not buying it.
I was anxiously awaiting in the MiG 23 too. Now I have to worry about the future of the modules I already own. At the very least ED needs to maintain the existing modules. Or giver everyone their money back. No matter what happens, this is not good for the hobby.
Maybe the whole razbam selling through ED was just a ruse. The reality was that Razbam was developing the MiG-23 to train the North Koreans?
@@christophermcsherry2655I have read Razbam has the source code for all of their modules. I am not literate in anything related to coding but from my limited understanding Razbam is the only group who can update their modules.
@@Megapihar "What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul"
@@Megapihar Does the "D"PRK even have such modern equipment at all? Asking for a friend... XD
If it doesn’t work, someone owes us money!
Thank you, Enigma! Thank you for this video and for picking it up, speak out loud.
I would fckin' pay razbam if that meant I can keep my harrier in a playable form 😭
You haven't learn anything? Didn't you?
So, up date 34 people would pay a second time for something they already payed!?
You're part of the problem !
Since this clash started I've only dedicated my gaming hours to enjoying my F-15E while I still can. This dispute will last longer than we think and by then, the 60 dollar plane I paid for will become unplayable
The Mirage 2000 was the first module I purchased. No fear on saying It is top 3 BEST modules by far. It is such a shame to see It being destroyed, with the others, by pure incompetence... I Hope that at least the give Up the money back...
Well in terms of sales it's not even in the Top 3, so try again.
@@ImpendingJoker So what??. Obviously the 90% of the clients are from western countries, and the buy the aircraft they know and love from their airforces, hence the 18 and 16. And those 2 are like, at least, 1 level below de quality of the Mirage. But is just my opinion of course... By way, one example is the simple effect of the Sonic boom, a thing that Mirage has and the 18 and 16 don't...that's without entering the radar, weapons, etc. I also own and love the 18, but yeah...
@@Wildharrier What does that have to do with ~anything? It's a global market and the numbers are the numbers. You're the one that said it was the Top 3 Best by far, all I did is point out that you are statistically incorrect and you blow a gasket. haha
@@ImpendingJoker yep, I said: on my opinion. Obviously is quite subjective. Others will say another top 3, and the stadistics say the most sold are the F-teen series because they are the most loved ones for X reasons(not even checked It), as It should be people as my self buy them. You literally did not read, and impossed something no one was saying it was the rule... Simply saying that under my own experience and critic eye, Mirage 2K was top 3. Hopefully you get It now mate!
I was about to purchase the Harrier when this drama broke. Cant justify $70 plus taxes for something that won’t be supported.
In my opinion Eagle Dynamics needs to stop stuffing tech and eye candy into the game engine and work on EXTREME optimization and bug fixes for a while like I'm talking for months just stop and let the module makers catch up. It's crazy that I can play Microsoft Flight Simulator with tons of aircraft and different models running at OVER 100 FPS but in DCS I get like 20 FPS on medium to low settings on the Caucasus map not even gonna mention Persian gulf or Marianas it's why I don't buy as many maps the performance on the newer maps is terrible. Hell Persian gulf still has this issue with the ground going completely black when I'm in the F-18 on the taxiway. (I've reported it 3-4 times already) I have the harrier and the mirage 2000 I'm worried I'm going to lose these modules.
It’s because dcs is a pyramid scheme only kept alive by pumping out new maps and modules. ED has no incentive to pause that effort to work on the core gameplay or code (other than the bare minimum required to merely keep the game viable on mid-high end hardware
Basically, this.
Optimizations don't bring money directly, so of course they're lower priority.
They're still banking heavily on there not being real direct competition.
Im getting way less FPS in studio sim aircraft in MSFS then in DCS, im not sure what youre doing wrong
Are you using VR? If not, i think you need to optimise your settings. I have a 4070, i get a solid 60FPS on Sinai in the Mirage. If you need, tell me your specs and I’ll see where I can help you.
I’ve never had that issue in the f-18 or any aircraft in any map and I pretty much exclusively fly the Persian gulf map, sounds like a non widespread error to me bud
I asked ED for a refund on the M2000c Yersterday. They replied that they will not refund as support is ongoing.
I wonder where it continues?))))))
ED is really becoming despicable.
Everyone should spam refund tokens for Razbam modules to let them know we are not going to play along with shady business practices. Everytime an entity has a monopoly on something they act in this fashion. It seems to be apart of the human condition.
You are doing gods work, nobody explained the feelings a lot of people share better than you!
hoggit or floggit, who will pop off first?
Floggit makes trends, Hoggit fumbles them
Very well spoken, I’m tired of this being pushed under the rug, and I’m so happy you’ve decided to actually confront the issue.
The MPCD in the F-15C has been broken for over 20 years. I wouldn't hold your breath.
what do you mean by this? it works for me
Almost as bad as Windows (File) Explorer's Alzheimer's. That's been diagnosed in 2001 IIRC. That darn thing just is completely incapable of remembering any folder settings properly ever since. And M$ just won't fix it.
@@vincentvoncarnap It's a Multi Purpose COLOR Display.
@@f15sim well yes, but it only shows one page, with nothing but text on that page. i dont see why there would be any color
@@vincentvoncarnap The MPCD renders most text as white/gray, with many elements using color. ED got it wrong, despite being told it was wrong during the beta testing. (I was a beta tester on LOMAC.)
Thank you for covering this issue, as often your voice is probably the best comment on the question.
As a mere player, I don't have nearly as much insight in the under-the-hood stuff but I definitely lost a lot of trust in the perennity of the whole ecosystem. I tend to think all 3rd party devs should have the possibility to have their own store, as Heatblur does, so that my money goes straight to the devs and then back to Ed, not the other way round.
I didn't stop playing Razbam modules, in fact my DCS experience was mostly Mirage, then Harrier. For now, I created a second install for my Razbam birds that I intend to keep frozen as a backup. But this can only work for a time. We need to push for a resolution that would at least allow for the already existing modules to be maintained, if not for the continuation of their projects (and I was really eager for that MiG-23).
It breaks my heart to see the M2K slowly withering away like that ...
Hey, thanks for the video Enigma. I have over 10,000 hours flying in DCS. I own the Strike Eagle and the Harrier so if the modules do completely break it will affect me to a moderate amount.
However, I'm going to give the problem time to work itself out. There are so many scenarios where all our fears won't materialize. Here are a few off the top of my head.
1. Razbam and DCS could eventually come to terms.
2. DCS could take over support of the Razbam modules.
3. The modules are allowed to wither and die but another 3rd party or DCS themselves make new versions of the modules, all be it way down the road.
I could go on but all I'm saying is that it might take years to resolve our concern but I think it's very likely. Being a DCS lover or flight sim lover means a hobby spanning years and decades any ways.
Last I want to comment on Razbam saying they are "not getting paid by DCS". It's misleading because it implies Razbam isn't getting paid enough or at all for their modules which is clearly false.
Maybe, we, as module owners should demand refunds for the Razbam modules that are no longer supported. Especially the F-15E as it was JUST released and is getting no love to fix it.
Till the situation of Razbam and its modules is not clear, I will give no more money to ED.
The point you made about there being a potential resolution just over the horizon on the basis that the modules are still for sale without a disclaimer isn’t something I’d considered until now.
I also don’t think there’s much wrong with continuing to cover content that isn’t supported, so long as anything new comes with a disclaimer.
Though Casmo probably has more reach than most and I guess it’s still an issue for older content, so props to him for thinking of the bigger picture.
Your server does have the MiG-19, which is Razbam property, so you may soon have to tackle a similar situation to what’s happening with the Mirage.
My hope is that the situation is resolved and things go back to how they were, the worst case is that we have another Hawk situation and all trace of the modules get wiped from the sim.
I expect what happens will be somewhere between those two things, and the more towards “back to normal” you lean, the more naive I think you’re being.
The content side of things here is unique in that you are potentially turning people to buy a module that is unsupported and will be dropped soon in the worst case with potentially no direct refunds.
For sure, this is the new normal.
I expect any resolution is gonna be quite different from how things looked pre Razbamgate.
I am an engineer. What I do know is that when you stop paying vendors, you’re usually in trouble. I didn’t know they’re still on sale… so that’s another data point…
To me it seems like a data point in favor of an expectation that a resolution will come.
@@icedragon769 do not underestimate how scummy software companies are
Remember that this "not getting paid" aspect has NEVER BEEN CONFIRMED BY ANYONE WITH AN OFFICIAL POSITION ON THE MATTER! This is the biggest red flag
@@Galf506 then ED should publicly state they’re suing for libel.
@@flightkimulator9612you’re an engineer idk if you’re an independent contractor or not but if you hadn’t been paid for work you’ve done wouldn’t YOU be suing for wages?
The same basic thing you’re saying about ED and libel can be flipped back on Razbam about their income.
I feel like you've touched the most important DCS problem, ED keeps adding modules and maps, wrapping it all in a nice graphics improvement but they are barely touching the broken aspects or the non developed parts of the DC world. Combined Armes 15 yo models and logic, Carriers, ATC, IFF, SAR, AI Issues. They are working on bringing early access stuff to fiture complete level and are not improving the 'World', the sandbox that is the true reason we love this sim so much.
sounds like WT but without grind and with bigger hardware requirements
This actually hurts my soul. If the razbam modules get pulled/continue unsupported I will forever lose faith in ED and they will never see another one of my dollars
For me it means I’ll never buy a module from ED again.
Whatever the issue is they can fix it for us
If you would like to preserve your F-15E videos, while mitigating the risk that they may convince a viewer to purchase a deprecated product, it may be best to put a pinned comment on them, explaining the current situation.
Something like, “As a result of an ongoing dispute between Razbam and Eagle Dynamics, this module is no longer being supported and updated. DCS is an evolving game that is frequently updated. With each DCS update, more game-altering bugs accumulate within Razbam modules. Unless this dispute is resolved, these modules will eventually fall into disrepair and cease to function.”
I've postponed learning the Harrier that I got years ago and just started learning it a few weeks back, and now I'm thinking I might not even be able to utilise it to its fullest before it eventually breaks...
A very well thought through commentary on the situation.
My opinion is that these modules should not be currently for sale - given the learning curve, by the time you notice that the module is malfunctioning due to lack of maintenance, your period for refund will already have passed (speaking as a Steam player).
As a software developer - that DCS is "a buggy mess" is not surprising given the immense complexity. That, however, means that constant maintenance, patches, and updates by the module developers are *crucial*. And even *if* the issue gets resolved amicably, the amount of catch-up that RAZBAM needs to do in order to get the modules patched to the current version of DCS may be quite prohibitive.
ED having access to the sourcecode also is mostly irrelevant - unless RAZBAM has documented everything to the smallest detail (and even then), you can't just look at their code and continue where they left off. It would take serious manpower and time to understand WTF is happening and why.
Basically, as a customer?
I paid money. I don't care who is at fault. Get it sorted out. :)
Agreed on ALL points - you sir aren't "dumb" even though you referred to yourself as such, you have an intelligently conveyed set of points here, you obviously have put a lot of thought into this video, and just because your skillset isn't in creation, doesn't mean you aren't intelligent. I appreciate the way you posed the important questions here. Tough spot for many of us to be in, from customers, partners, content creators who have a vested interest in keeping a good relationship with ED so they can't say much....etc
F-15e is my favorite plane to fly right now, I just hope it’s updated eventually
I'm cautiously optimistic. The F-15E is my favorite aircraft, and my favorite module thus far (until days from now when the OH-58 comes out). The implications of this are pretty grim, if Razbam and ED continue to fight, or sever ties, they need to disclose that ASAP. If they do kiss and make up, I hope it happens sooner rather than later so we can have some outlook to the future. My hope is that cooler heads prevail and they bury the hatchet and continue to make good content on both ends. I want Razbam to be successful, I want the F-15E and their other modules to live on.
I don't think Razbam will stop working on DCS as a whole, as they're still the Armee De l'Air's training module provider. Maybe this has changed over the years? I highly doubt they'd want to jeopardize that part of their business.
Mirage 2000C is no longer in service.
AdA has their own simulator for Mirage 2000D and 2000-5F.
@@castor3020 Oh okay, I thought that razbam also did the -5 and -D versions for them as well.
Regardless of whose fault it is, ED is the owner of the game, and it's in their best interest to resolve the matter. The problem is indeed one of loss of faith/confidence.
Firstly, we're talking about hundreds of dollars worth of modules that people may have purchased which are going to inexorably decay unless maintained. One such module, the F-15E, is very recent and was thoroughly hyped.
Secondly, they're still being sold.
And thirdly, the most insidious factor, is that it casts doubt in the longevity of practically every third party module: if ED cannot be trusted to keep some measure of control and operability of DCS' third party content, from now on a chunk of previously loyal fans are going to think purchases twice. Sudden module death was never considered a possibility before this incident.
I'm stuck on the last 2.8 version as the 2.9 (NVIDIA) update broke the ground / building rendering for my NVIDIA Titan X(p) - ED didn't give aff when I posted my error report. So who cares - all my Razbam modules still work with 2.8 - not buying anymore maps or modules. I have every module and map sold prior to 2.9 and many many mods working flawlessly in 2.8, so RIP DCS.
I think the content creators can just say something in the intro. Like: „Hey guys, today i‘ll show … keep in mind that the future of the module is uncertain“. That is an honest statement, that helps the viewers and doesn‘t decrease the content quality.
The problem isn't new content. It's old ones from like 2 or 3 years ago. Like whole entire guide series for example by the grim reapers that pop up when you type "DCS Mirage 2000C" on youtube search.
To be honest ED need to sort this ASAP. To me this serves as a warning. I am comfortable investing in the F4 so I did but I have a lot of Razbam's modules and this has me questioning whether or not I continue to invest in DCS and its modules moving forwards.
I love my helicopters and I'm psyched for the Kiowa but looking at the Razbam situation I now have you question whether or not it's wise to invest in anymore modules.
ED very much needs to make a no-BS statement about what’s happening, because this potentially affects every 3rd party module. Agreed that continuing to sell Razbam modules without a warning about the lack of support is very shady.
I am one of those who likes to buy a game / module and then play it. That means I currently have multiple versions of games on my desktops/servers to include FC2, DCS World 1.2, DCS 1.5.7, DCS 1.5.8, DCS 2.0, DCS 2.5.6, and a retail Open Beta installation. I was very upset when ED chose to scrap multiple versions on Steam because of this. But I learned that if you enjoy a game, make sure you take actions to preserve it because developers tend to constantly break it when they think they are adding or fixing something. And Blizzard was a great teacher of that how they broke World of Warcraft Wrath of the Lich King and the tens of millions of subscribers dropped down to single digit millions and they just ignored that they killed the popularity. And then DCS did this when they make upgrades that break compatibility either with a module or pc hardware and then ignore it. The community of DCS responded the same way as WoW did of how the game is an ever evolving game and it is tough for you that you lose the ability to play what you paid for because the game evolved and ignored the compatibility issue.
With ED, before I saw them do this, I was buying everything they sold and multiple copies as I love playing with my nephews and nieces along with my wife and kids. I spent tens of thousands of dollars to ED. After they educated me, I have very reluctant to buy one much less multiple copies of modules for DCS since. Even though I do love the Razbam Harrier and Mirage, I remember Razbam from FSX/TacPack days. They still sell their FSX/TacPack modules at full price today. They are very reluctant to go on sale.
Even without a dispute between a module maker and the platform, module makers will gradually lessen support for their modules (Natural, they have other projects to work on to continue making money). If a module is considered essentially complete and acceptably bug free as of a certain date, I think it's fair for the module maker to give it very little time and attention. It becomes the responsibility of the platform to not break anything. ie maintain backwards compatibility with older modules. Even without the module source code, if you've made a game engine change that has caused a problem with a module, that should be reversable even without the module makers assistance. Of course this is a very different situation if the product is still being sold in an early acces state and there has been no comuniction to say it will never get finished.
For me, transparency is key here. Both parties need to be transparent with their PAYING customers (wether ED paid or not to RB, these are still paid modules).
After that, the community as a whole can decide or even pressure one side or the other to take action one way or the other.
If they don’t take action, and knowing who decided to do what, then we can decide to:
A. Stop buying RB products
B. Stop buying ED products
C. Wait for a possible solution
The problem here is that ED (more than RB) are quiet about this while still profiting from modules “in contempt” and with a shady future.
So, for sure, stop selling those modules until they resolve issues, because they are appearing a money-greedy scammers selling a product for which they have no chance of giving support.
I really wish we knew more and had more evidence. If razbams accusations of not getting paid for 8 months are correct then I’ll side with them. But since we know nothing it’s all just in limbo. I agree the models should not be sold. Man it’s it’s a mess
That's the thing. It's so messy it doesn't even matter who is at fault anymore.
I don’t get why anyone is taking sides. We know nothing about what is going on other than a rant post from a Razban employee and a vague statement from ED.
Multiple "Employees" of Razbam as well as Devs. Not just any Devs either very well known and respected ones.
The problem is that many of us are highly invested in the sim - thousands in hardware and a lot in software. Personally, taking the ball and going home isn't an option as there is no other way i can use my hardware. So all i can do is hope they figure it out and we can move on.
it's never been more over
"ends only way with razbam modules going away, If razbam is not on the scene no one can maintain their code".
20+ year dev/lead/manager in this industry here.
the above statement is absolutely a bold one and to me also unprofessional if it comes from someone with development experience.
let's focus first on the modules which can be considered in a final state and feature complete like the mig19, av8b, m2000.
There are no new features to develop on that codebase and, very likely, the things that will break at each update (for API changes, etc) will be small ones. we just saw that with the crying about the 6g/9g limiter. fixed silently in the patch, quickly and pointly, something that could have broken anyway and most likely would have broken.
for the f15e it's a very different picture and yes, for that one I don't see any future at all, in the best scenario it could be simply maintained at it's current state. the mig23 is also probably DoA.
the only question pending and that ultimately is important is "is ED legally eligible to acquire their code", if yes then people should stop drama, again. Code is code, if access is granted it will be maintained as long as it is profitable, it's a simple cost/benefit equation.
finally, let's stay calm and avoid sophistic dialectic exercises like "there is more than a 0% chance of this modules rotting away".
of course there is, like there is more than a 0% chance of being hit by a boeing 737 while you're sitting on a bench eating a sandwich.
don't expect to ED being sharing every week an update on the ED vs RB situation, that's not how companies work, it's not a social media or discord chat.
again, the only thing that matters is "does ED have a legal leverage to have that codebase", if they do then the "feature complete" modules are in very good shape, if they don't, well, not in good shape at all.
this is a simple professional analysis, I will ignore that the modules are still being sold, that content creators do what they do, etc.
it's just code.
ps: the fact that the 6/9g limiter was fixed means that "someone" that has access to the code apllied the fix and that it was not disclosed in the patch is free to speculation.
True, but any customer who lives in the EU (or the UK) is entitled to either:
1- The fault being fixed in a timely manor.
or 2- A full CASH refund of the defective item. (although the customer can choose to accept store credit if they like)
... Many have already asked for, and received refunds. Big legal issue, which could be met with very stiff fines to ED if they refused.
As a Tool dev (DCS Briefing Room) we aren't too affected by this issue although at some point we will have to develop a toggle for orphaned modules. In the end if ED has the source code or gets it (say razbam sells it and walks away). Its going to be very hard for ED to fix bugs on it let alone develop the modules. Given EDs reputation of making one post on something then never speaking of it again (SUPER CARRIER FEATURES). Its likely that in EDs hands they will be minimally functional at least in the medium term.
I'm assuming Razbam has no rights to pull the module from sale then ED is just milking what is left. IMO it seems the ball is in EDs court to budge or loose a major number of playable aircraft and risk legal action from Razbam and others.
Did not know anything about this until now, which is PER SE a horrific thing (no disclamer at all). I bought the Strike Eagle three weeks ago, and quite honestly, if all of that is going to get real, I want my damn money back. Cause for me, that's fraud.
I don’t see a way forward. I certainly don’t trust either company with my money
ED should not let that happen AT ALL!! I am in pc gaming since 1995, and NEVER EVER seen something like this. Thats a huge blow for ED.
this was something that always felt weird about DCS with the outsourced development and am not surprised that something like this happens.
i got the harrier and mirage so obviously didn't take it too serious.
It’s a tough call. Because at the end of it all, DCS is a business. ED works with other companies to create content for its world. Whenever money is involved, relationships can go sour. It’s a shame. Personally I hope it can get resolved because I really like the strike eagle
I've spent hundreds of pounds on rasbam modules and I am so angry at DCS for basically stealing our money.
hear hear
So you know the reason razbam stop working on bug fixes?
They are a joke of a company , that's why @Ghost-pz3uy
@@Ghost-pz3uy ED Stopped paying razbam for their work.
@@rob7566 but you don't know the reason!
Who knows, maybe Razbam should make their own flight sim based on new engines.
The South Atlantic map is fully supported and is being updated / further developed with new features and enhancements as per the last patch and also the content that I have done for the next ED patch date
Razbam did the same with Strike Fighters 2.
So, no surprise here
Exactly. Drama follows Razbam for a reason… they are the problem.
Wether or not it is Razbam’s fault doesn’t make ED look any better. Unless I am mistaken it is ED’s choice to leave Razbam’s modules up with no warning on what could happen to them if this doesn’t get resolved soon. I’d be real surprised if just one party is at fault here.
I think that it is 100% ED’s responsibility to fix this problem and pay Razbam if they owe them any remuneration for Razbam’s work. ED have responsibilities to all the people who are using their product so in my humble opinion there shouldn’t even be such situation as it is. If ED doesn’t want to work with Razbam anymore - they should’ve buy out all the sources from the 3rd party developer and support the existing modules by themselves. Of course I don’t have all the information so it is only my judgment as a user, nothing more.
Razbam stole intellectual property from Eagle Dynamics. Eagle Dynamics stole nothing from Razbam. Therefore, Razbam owes Eagle Dynamics money.
@@dfpoor are you were holding the candle when Razbam stolen something from ED? Only Razbam and ED have information so please stop saying your opinion as if it’s a 100% truth.
This is kind of on brand for Razbam though. They left a lot of bugs for their stuff in FSX/P3D. The only people I feel sorry for here is Metal2Mesh. This is the second time they've hooked their cart to the wrong horse. They got screwed by Milviz on the F-15E they made for FSX when there was a proposal to update the cockpit for the existing release as a payware addon. Milviz pulled out and M2M went at it on their own to bring the new version to the simulator, this is when they initially partnered with Razbam, and it has been downhill ever since. The only Razbam module I own is the Harrier and I am very glad it was only that one that a spent money on. So none of this is a surprise to me as I've been in the simulation community for quite literally decades across all the major platforms.
Damn… I bought the Mirage this weekend without knowing about the G Limiter bug. :/
Was planning on getting to grips with it this weekend… now I’ll just let it collect dust so I don’t fall in love with something that may get moth balled.
Brothers of culture, save your money.
Play the community skyhawk until the community su-35 be available.
And the community SU-30 have multirole capability when the ED and Razbam drama get crack and that make my money safe from buying F-15E
According to other channels POV, ED can't remove the the modules from the sale site, since this would imply breaking their contractual obligations with Raz, and as things are right now, ED might want to be as lawful as possible.
BOTH PARTIES WOULD (HAVE NOTHING) IF IT WERE NOT FOR THE "CUSTOMERS" HEY GUYS,... THE CUSTOMER PAYS YOUR BILLS
If ED simply let Razbam see their share of the money the customers are paying for their development assets, we would not have this problem.
It's unreasonable to expect anyone to work for free. The customers aren't paying Razbam's bills anymore, because ED is pocketing all the money
5:52 Wow. What a move. Maybe it's good that I haven't found enough time to invest into the Strike Eagle yet, but this is really a sad thing going on. I totally hope this will get resolved somehow.
6:16 Valid thoughts and that's why I think the stuff should be kept up eventually. But putting some slight pressure on the whole situation (just not too much!) might not be the worst idea to have.
Just go Falcon BMS.
Well there is Falcon BMS and if these module makers don't want to deal with the shody business practices of ED with DCS I bet Micropros's Falcon team would be more than happy to work with them and make a new Modern combat flight sim from the ground up.
There's a couple giant red flags with this situation:
1) Razbam REFUSED to acknowledge the nature of the issue. The CEO tried to dump the drama on the community and stir a fire. Which didn't happen. They hoped the community would create a dirty enough situation to have ED concede whatever they wanted to get. This is a HUGE issue.
2) Razbam has a shady past. Known as Razscam, they've not always been the good developer people knew recently.
Sure ED is no saint either, but their response was calm, fair and correct. All this tells me that Razbam did a big legal oopsie and they're trying to weasel their way out rather than protecting their customers.
Exactly this. Those of us coming from FSX/P3D know how shady Razbam has always been, and sadly once again M2M is getting shafted by another company despite making some of the most realistic models in flight simulation. M2M needs to work directly for ED and tell Razbam to go pound sand.
I steer clear of any RB modules, and address them as RazzleBamboozle
No. The issue is they haven't been paid for F-15e sales for nearly a year BEFORE anything was said publicly. If ED felt they were in contract violation, why did they promote and continue (and STILL continue) to sell the module for a year now? Why did they send a small payment of the amount owed shortly before the announcement if RB was in some violation? Please go read all the information out there and at least don't take EDs side on face value alone. Failing all of that and RB is 100% to blame - why are their modules STILL for sale?
So its calm, fair and correct to continue selling modules that there is no support for and the developers have said unless ED pays them, they'll not be returning?
Lick that boot a bit more.
@@ImpendingJoker Dude..M2M is the one who is most angry at ED.
He is well aware of what is going on and *HATES* ED passionately.
Mig-19 is broken too. It won't start on the ground unless you use the auto start sequence. Manual start won't take the throttle out of the cut detent anymore.
Oof, I feel shat on for having bought stuff that will now be broken. But it didn’t even realise they were still for sale and there will be people buying a broken product that will never get fixed, without them knowing it (in time)
Either way, we need to take a stand and let Ed know that we won't expect to get the short end of the stick. The hawk already told us how this will go if Ed doesn't pay.
I think there is also a possiblity that steam might also be part of the problem they don't usually offer refunds over a certain period of time and they might be making things difficult for ED to make a complete statement until the matter is resolved.
Mirage 2000 was my first full fidelity module. Bought it even before the F18 was intruduced to DCS. I basically abandoned it after the release of the F14. The mirage module never felt fully complete and it took the ages to add stuff. Seems like it was a good idea to not thouch anymore Razbam modules after that. Remember how shitty the Mig 19 was when released. It flew like an F15.
The mirage 2000 has been complete for a few years now. It's not a hornet or viper, it won't have tons of weapons to choose from or multirol capability within the same mission, but the module itself is complete
I submitted a ticket a few days ago and just got a refund approved (and store credited) yesterday on the sale-priced F-15E I purchased in early April. I had been busy learning some other modules, so hadn't even had a chance to use it, but the very real possibility/probability that RB/ED were not going to reach a resolution and the module would become unsupported was the core of my argument that an exception to ED's "no refunds" policy should be granted for this (and potentially other) RB products. The fact that they granted my request should be a seriously considered indicator that things are not going well.
was it removed from your module list? My take on this would be, full refund, module disabled ?
@@keysersoze1855 It was disabled and I uninstalled it from the module manager in DCS.
Man I’m feeling mad cheated by this. I purchased the F-15e because it was well known that big updates and fixes were planned for it. And I wanted to fly it. But I stepped away from the game for a while due to work constraints. Now I’m back in and find out that this is the only version I’m going to get. No more updates, patches, fixes. I’m ashamed.
Imo tbh ED looks like an idiot for staying quiet. they're making it look like they're milking the modules for money because they're not taking them down and keeping quiet. my stand goes with 3rd party creators as all evidence points toward ED. its all about transparency.
The fact that they are still for sale is criminal. I have 3 razbam aircraft and I'm willing to sue both parties if mommy abs daddy don't get their shit together.
It's beyond ridiculous now. ED forum moderators already started to penalize people for speaking up on th forums about this huge mess!
Staying silent for months will definitely harm ED. There are already a lot of people leaving the sim because they feel fooled by ED.
ED is killing themselves with their politics!
We're all loosing our trust in ED because of their lack of communication.
Now it feels like all of those "thank you for being the most passionate community" have been nothing more than empty words in every 202X and beyond videos.
The fact that these broken modules are still on sale makes it look like ED wants to milk the players until the very end of the whole DCS simulator.
It's been a great time for me with DCS for was more than a decade but now I'm also loosing faith and I'm going to sell my hardware and quit DCS permanently.