Drum shells, bearing edges, and sound - 3 shells, 3 edges, Part 7
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- Sorry about that desk lamp. Here I take the three Keller shells: Maple, Birch, and Polar; cut down and inch, with a single edge on each drum. Major sound differences?
What I really like with the naked shell is that you've created a true "free floating" shell, and it makes almost no difference in sound.
I've been saying the same thing for 30 years! Vistalites proved ya don't even need wood!! I do like the sound of my Mahog Radio Kings. Warm and cozy
I love the sound of fiberglass and the old kits with 3 ply and reinforcing rings also have a big warm tone.
arnt you contradicting yourself, your radio kings being "mahog" has no effect.
Not only does a long sustain not matter when played in a full kit, but what is the first thing an audio engineer does to the Toms? Throws a gate on them to stop them from ringing the whole time. You can hear it just in this guys voice. The sound is causing the toms to ring. Now every kick and snare hit you have your floor tom ringing away causing a low rumble muddying up the whole mix. In fact you could gate the toms to quarter or eighth note release to make them sound tighter and more coherent in the song. This is just for close mics however. Overheads and room mics won't make that much of a difference.
Would that not depend on both the style of music and the player's taste? Call me old school but, I prefer the entire sound field of my drum set to be as natural as possible. Lots of drums, lots of cymbals, lots of natural reverb and life. One engineer's "mud" is another musician's atmosphere.
Sustain creates life in the sound of a drum, depending on the heads used. Not every player likes the dry, thuddy sound made popular by Ringo, and Steve Gadd with his Evans' Oil heads. No one would deny it's use on countless hit records but, not everyone is in music to have Top40 hits. Most traditional Jazz players want things wide open and interacting. The same for other players in other styles of music.
The idea of isolating each component of a drum set is only one way of recording, though it be the lion's share. I'm about to record drum tracks and I'll be using my big set-up (13 drums, 4 dozen cymbals and effects) and I just set up two Earthworks TC30's w/Jecklin disk, and kick mic. The sound is incredibly natural and works well with the music I record. I want my toms to ring and wash into each other in rolls around the set, and I want the atmosphere of cymbals and drums breathing together. That's a matter of personal preference, of course but, the sustain of a drum, while it often gets lost in the overall music, anyway, remains an important point for the overall presence of a drum SET.
Thanks for watching and commenting. I appreciate it.
The speed of sound is a constant based on altitude and air density. I think what you meant to say is that is has a bit more distance to travel, but given it's speed at sea level it's not measurable in 1" difference.
It's been over three years since I posted the video. Can't remember exactly what I stated about the speed of sound.
From a scientific point of view, at sea level, at 610,' as I am here in Texas, or at 3,000' as I was when I lived in VA, which are all elevation, not altitude, I know but, are you saying that a column of air and sound wave inside the shell is going to move at an audibly different speed, or the time it would take for the sound wave to reach the camera mics 3-4' away?
Asked in another way; would the sound of a drum be different as heard on a beach as it would on a 12k' mountain top from 4' away?
One more comment.... Drum sound is the accumulation of several factors.
1- The ability of a shell to support tension (strength its why plies of wood are common)
2- Roundness of the shell (round shells have equal tension about the circumference)
3- Squareness of the shell to the edge (no leaning tower of pizza)
4- The cut of the bearing edge (as we witness here)
5- The flatness of the bearing edge once its cut (something DW expounds upon)
6- Airflow (drum shells must breath) What is too much and what is too little.
7- Humidity (damp air will reduce air vibration, its a hydraulic thingy engineers talk about) .
The material used to make the drums has little to do with the eventual sound of the drums as long as these 7 criteria are addressed. The materials used in shell construction is basically Marketing Hype. Mine are Birch .... Ours are Maple.... Ours are Poplar .... on and on..... and most sought after and played snare drum? The all metal Ludwig Superaphonic.... Hum......
Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment. As far as your points of necessity, not necessarily. Check out The Story of Tubie, parts 4&5 of the series - th-cam.com/video/9yptk_gTwvI/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/5hXbIPHJmK8/w-d-xo.html
Tubie really shows making a drum is not rocket science or anywhere near the sum total of stated, essential marks of manufacturing the companies like to trumpet.
You're an idiot
Also if the wood doesn't matter then why aren't all wood blocks made of plastic vs walnut, cherry or African mahogany
@@chrisscustomdrumsmanzella7803 My friend, think about toning back on your insults and just enter a discussion. There's no need for the vitriol.
Wood blocks are thick pieces of wood struck by another thick piece of wood. The more dense the wood, the heavier it is and the higher the pitch. Wood blocks are not drums. Drums produce sound because the membranes stretched across a frame of some kind, some way, produce sound waves when struck regardless if there is a cylindrical shell or not, of any kind, like Roto toms, Flats, or Traps, or any frame drum or hand drum.
Think about as toy drum made with an American Indian look. A thin rubber sheet is stretched across a cylinder. The child strikes the head with hand or pencil or anything else and the drum produces sound. What makes the sound? The cylinder or the rubber stretched across it? How much difference would it make if that cylinder were wood, plastic or a soup can? Virtually none.
This is not rocket science. And the Hype in the drum manufacturing industry about drum shells has become ridiculous.
Watch video 4 and 5, and 9. Compressed paper cylinder or trash cans. Doesn't mater. The sound of drums is almost all about heads, not shells. What shells do to color sound is just lost in the midst of a band.
Proper bearing edges make a difference, cosmetic finishes make a difference as far as $$, hardware options for mounting, etc., make a difference for $$. Drums shells? Not so much.
@@REFondrums i noticed you didn't comment on your degrading attitude?
Ive had a client in the past talk to me like i was a piece of shit just like you.
I stopped and basically told her pipe it or im out w her husband there
I must have super ears. I had a pearl poplar tom and a pearl maple tom - same diameter, depth, heads, hoops, shell thickness and bearing edge. The maple had a fuller, deeper, brighter tone with good attack and sustain, while the poplar had good attack but a noticeably duller/flatter tone and sustain. I totally got rid of the poplar tom. I'm not biased for maple because I really wanted the poplar to sound just as good so I could save money. I do like birch though and that's usually cheaper than maple so I guess I'm saving there.
You were not hearing the difference in shell material, you were experiencing the difference in the flatness of the bearing edge and its squareness to the drum shell..... Its all about squaring the shell (initially) and cutting bearing edges which are flat (no light leaks out when the shell is placed on a flat table)..... Variation in factory equipment will cause variation in drum sound. Wearing of bits and tooling over time will result in drums from the same manufacturer which will sound different......... The only effect shells will provide is roundness and control of airflow, within the shell..... This is why various materials for drum shells all provide the same type of drum sound .....................
Were you aware that the initial Ludwig drums we played in the 60s and 70s were all 3 ply and mostly mahogany? Yet today the uneducated call mahogany firewood.... One can tell the difference between Maple and Mahogany in acoustic guitars. Those are the two woods commonly used for the backing and sides of high end guitars.... in that case the sound is all about the resonance of the wood used, not the bearing edge of head to the shell..... With drums its a different story, as the sound of the drum is directly related to the head material and the edge which contacts that material, the sound of the drum is caused by air wave vibration, which humans can hear.
tj hessmon no.... its about desity.. poplar absorb more tone.. poplar= less density
Great video! Extremely well thought out. Thanks for sharing your knowledge of drums and for demystifying the topic of shells and their effect on sound.
Are you fucking kidding? Hes a moron.
Hes tone deaf
Please do not take his comments serious
I could go on for a month how stupid this guy is.
Finally,,,,, someone who gets it..... Drum shells (as long has they are made of hardwood - having the material strength to withstand tension) mater little in the overall sound of a drum... Don't believe that? Then strip the heads from shells coated in plastic or polyurethane and tap either with a mallet and listen to their resonance. .........The Bearing edge, tension assemblies and drum head, construct the drum sound, regardless of the shell material used. This is why various materials such as wood or brass or steel or fiberglass, will still make a very acceptable drum sound. People rave on and on about the wood used to construct drums but play a steel snare drum in most kits.... Why is that? ....... The Stage custom drums of the 80s, 90s and early 2000s were made of Luan (Philippine mahogany), but they sounded great..... Why is that?
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The answer lies in ... Manufacturing Process control..... Capable tension bearing hardware.... And effective Mylar head construction. These three bits will bring about an either horrible sounding or excellent sounding drum. Extensive variation in any one or a multiple of these issues will result in drum sound problems.................
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The manufacturing process of drum shells, must consistently produce, drum shells which retain a specific finished range of measurable dimensions (diameter, concentrically, length, bearing edge angle, flatness etc) , Next is shell strength which is necessary to both bear the tensions applied, and provide reasonable longevity. The final bit is drum shell finish, which is applied to protect the shells, based upon their inherent base material property.
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The same is true of drum hardware, as well as drum head construction.
I have a stage custom from the 90s
Would you happen to know what the bearing edge is on those?
@@friedpickles342 Stock bearing edge for the 90s stage custom was 45 degrees. The later birch versions have 45 with a round over added to the back side of the bearing edge which was done to initiate a drum more conducive to studio recording and miked playing (less natural ring, sustain).....
From what I can gather, the initial Stage custom birch (large nearly square badge) had a 45 degree bearing edge, without the round over found on the current shells.......................
Additionally, early birch shells (YD-9000 series) used a 30 degree bearing edge. Just in case you are considering re-cutting, your bearing edges..... You should only do such if you have the proper machinery to hold both angle and flatness ... and if you do finish the edges, make sure to use a hard drying material such as polyurethane, to give them strength, which you will need to finish flat as well
Absolute tru
@@friedpickles342 My 1995 stage Customs were birch outer ply for beauty, mahog middle plies, and Falcata inner ply. Dirt cheap and I gigged with them for 15 years. Recording Custom hardware on the shells. Made with cheap labor in Indonesia. Super drums!
I have been saying the same thing about drums for years. I've sold used poplar kits to guys who recorded/toured with them. I've sold "high-end" maple/birch/mahogany/wood-x to people who "wanted the quality" but were never going to do anything other than play in a bedroom. Tuning and quality of the shell makes the difference. I've seen crappy shells in all woods. I've seen "high-end" kits that sound like garbage. It's the quality of the shell, and the person owning the drum.
Casey Johnson no bro...it’s actually the heads(80% of the sound)
6:03; but I hear that one drum sound more "open" (even in a "full" context)
Came here to say this.
Well, define 'open.' More sustain? Sustain is crowded out by everything else in the set and the band, right? I love optimum sustain but, in reality, live or recording, I never really hear it. The entire popular lines of muted heads out there obviously show how many players do not like long sustain, whatever "long" means. They want the wet, punch sound. Again, change the heads, change the sound of the drum.
If I get optimum sustain from whatever edges I use on my drums, it's moot past the first two seconds. Too much happening with the rest of the set and the band.
That does not mean I consider the difference between bracket mounted drums vs. iso mounted drums to be moot. Frequency range, as well as sustain is developed with better mounting, and a wider frequency range from the drum can be discerned on recordings. But even there, that can all be addressed with EQ and software these days.
You didn't mention which drum sounded more "open." I'll guess the Maple or the Poplar. But, neither drum was played in a full set context, and certainly not in a band context. I'd have to remain with the premise whatever differences anyone might hear between the three drums is not going to be heard through a band. The Birch might sound truncated because of the edges muting the heads more. It isn't a sound I would go with. Like anyone else, I'll start with the best sound I can achieve and deal with the rest as it arrives.
I just deny the ultra-hype out there that plywood shells make any, real world differences, or any shell materials, for that matter. The sound of a drum is mostly in the membranes, not the cylinders.
01:40 pearl and your maple shell sounds best and identical.
Good video... Proves what many know to be true..... Wood drum shells are structural in nature, they do not produce sound. As we learn here the bearing edge, the tension assembly and the drum heads effect the air waves to produce oscillations which the Human hears as sound. If the presenter had not stated the various material the drums were constructed of, then everyone would think they were constructed of material that the marketing folks identify as high end.........
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With the stage custom, those drums were constructed out of Meranti wood, with a Falkata or falcata wood. The Meranti is a hard wood with the same Janka hardness as Birch or Maple. The falkata or falcata is a softwood which splinters easily. Later they added birch as an outer ply..... Why? Because Birch on the outer ply, offered a better surface to apply lacquer coating to. So why add a Falkata inner core? Simple, it reduces weight. The drum shell is simply a container for air pressure to be contained within, The actual material of the shell has little to do with the sound of a drum as we witness with this video..............................................
Just think of it, All of the drums Yamaha sold in the late 1970s and 1980s were made of either Birch (YD9000) or Meranti (Philippine Mahogany), Tour and Stage series. All of those drums sounded excellent. Since it was not the material used what made them sound so wonderful? ..........
Take the Rydeen poplar kit today, Change the heads to a decent single ply resonant head and add a decent 10mil or double ply batter head , and you have yourself a great sounding kit..... Why is that?
You also don't know what you are talking about
Great video, thank you.
And there's no conventional way to mount them. Using snare stands mounted to a rack isn't practical, and no one else does that. Add a mounting system, and it may be a decent drum.
For the test, placing the toms on a snare stand was the easiest way to change drums and let them sing. Zero restrictions. As far as my own practice, I don't see much of a difference,
practically speaking, of placing a tom arm, bracket and isolation mount on a rack, or using a snare basket for the job. It may be unorthodox but, I care about convenience and sound, not what most people do. Of course, we could not count how many drummers use a snare stand to place their rack tom on these days. I was doing that 50 years ago from seeing pros do it back then. If it isn't unconventional for one tom, why is it unconventional for all the rest?
You held the stick, representi g the angle, at closer to 30 degrees, are you sure it's not , 30 per side, double to 60 combined ?
I'd have to watch it again but, I don't believe I intended to hold the stick at an exact angle in describing degrees, which are established by the router bits.
@@REFondrums ok, but when you say , it's 60 degrees, compared to the standard 45, do you mean your creation, is a more slender angle, or more robust.
@@ryanb1874 I guess that would depend on how you are defining 'slender' and 'robust' and from which degree direction. Picture a 90 degree angle and drop back 60, 45, 30, 22.5, etc., and you will see the angles bearing edges are cut. The less amount of wood touching the head collar, the more the head will vibrate but, because the heads are plastic and stretch, any angle will end up touching the head. The only angle that will not is a direct cut from outside ply to inside ply. The problem then is if that outside edge will seat correctly in the apex of the head's collar. Most of the time it will not with standard shells. The edge will fit back into the collar and the tuning will suffer as a result. That is why Premier and some other companies make shells that are slightly smaller, so heads will seat correctly with that full inside cut on the shell. Again, nuances. We are only dealing with shell walls a quarter inch or less in thickness, unless reinforcement rings are involved. If re-rings are involved and you cut a centered dble 45, quite a bit of wood will contact the head, hence, a slightly drier sound.
Ultimately, these values of sustain and tone cannot compete with the overall immediate strike impact of stick upon the head in multi-note playing on a drum, with cymbals ringing and a band blaring. That is why I believe it is all marketing hype that has no vivid, distinct, real world meaning when it comes to plywood drum shells or just about any other material. The sound of a drum is mostly the drum heads. Change a single ply clear to a dble ply, coated, Pinstripe and you change the sound a lot more than anything done with a drum shell.
@@REFondrums true. My bad,
@@REFondrums ok, but are you saying, both edges combine I your method to be a 120 degree included angle, would 30 degrees on each side, (adjacent to the I d and od, of the shell, combine to be 60 degrees, like measuring knife edges, would that give the head more tuning range?
Once again.. Not true ! ... its really about density... how soft or strong sound you got... and once again -maybe not difference between birch and maple .. density is good in both but you cannot say about poplar, its too light and soft. Im saying that like a drumbuilder. I did drums from plastic pipes, all kind of wood, even thin aluminium sheet... EVERYTHING do a SOUND !..... Are you Kiding me? What the hell is this tuning of the heads? Just BAD tuning,.. you cannot hear difference if your drums are DEAD.. horrible
I agree about shell density and what that does to frequencies thrown off by the heads in their sound waves in the chamber. I express that throughout the series. I do not believe, by experience and what is displayed, that when it comes to plywood drums, typical wood species used do not create any dramatic differences one can hear that warrants industry ultra-hype about proprietary shells. And seeing all the comparison videos out there, and observations and comments agreeing with mine, I'm fine with what I demonstrate
As far as tuning, that is totally subjective and has nothing to do with the subject matter. "Dead" is totally subjective. First, it is impossible for single ply, 10 mil heads to sound dead, by any definition. Second, thousands of players LIKE thuddy, short sustain drum sound. It isn't BAD if it works for them. I don't use that sound but, that's a matter of taste. It isn't "horrible" or anything other than personal preference.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
Further more if shells don't make a difference why doesn't everyone just make plastic?
Think about it dude,
The truth is you really don't know what you are talking about
Actually, those who make plastic drum shells (acrylic) would disagree with you but, please post a video where the sound of any wood drums are dramatically different enough to be discernible within a band, in a blindfold test. That's what the bottom line of the series is about: the unwarranted hype in the manufacturing and even custom drum making business. They make outrageous claims that simply cannot be proven, and it's a shame because it truly confuses the consumers who buy into it. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it.
Spend what you want. It's your money. But nobody has any proof a top of the line drum sounds any better or different, because of claims made about their plywood drum shells, than drums costing much less. The sound of a drum is mostly the heads, not the shells. Whatever coloration the shells add is basically lost when you crank up a full set in the midst of a band. So, all the hype is marketing to sell drums, that's it. That is my position and I have yet to see or hear any evidence to the contrary. Please, produce that evidence if you have it.