Interesting, I liked the 30 degree drum the most, lots of deep fundamental tone, but slightly less overtones. The 45 degree drum has some quite annoying overtones. I wonder if using a suspension mount instead of a snare stand might be better for a test like this. The snare stand can often kill the sustain on a tom!
My experience mounting toms on a snare stand (as done in this test) is that it chokes the sustain a LOT. So I would love to have heard these drums all mounted on a system that allowed for the greatest possible resonance - eg. RIMS type mounts. I think that would have highlighted the differences even more profoundly.
I’m obsessed with these comparisons and questions as well. I’ve done videos on 6 different materials with same bearings edges and tuning, and of course tested just about every drum head, and also tested tom depth, with all other things being the same. Thank you so much for this bearing edge one! On that tom tuning/material/size, I really liked the 30 the best. It seemed to retain the deep punch of the roundedge but with more sustain. Best of both worlds!
Nice. We did this a few years ago with 3x 12” toms and had similar results. One problem with that all these tests: 1) the heads are not checked on similarities - we just assume that the same heads will also sound the same. 2) even slightest differences in tuning can result in different sound even when you have similar drums. 3) four different mikes are used, similar, but again, we have to assume that they all sound exactly the same. Which is not always the case. Especially when it comes to measuring differences, it would have been best to only use one mike. 4) each drum was played on a different spot in the room. It would have been better to have them played all in the same spot to eliminate the possibility of a different room resonance. You’d be surprised how big the influence is of a room. So we have to assume that all these points do not matter, but cannot be sure. Especially using several mikes and not just one, and the different spots in the room have potential to influence results. And you never know how similar tuning is… sigh… so this did not settle the discussion as much as it was advertised.
1) Well I think Remos production-process is as even and professional as it gets in drumheads. If you got heads with a natural material it's a different story. The plastic material and aluminum rims are pretty even as they are massproduced. 2) You can hear in the video that even with our amount of care that there are small pitch differences. There is a difference between pitch and frequency response. You can clearly hear how the overtones and the sustain of the fundamental notes change independend of the slight pitch differences. Obviously it's easier to match the pitch on 4 toms standing right next to each other instead of using one head on 4 shells, one after the other. 3) We used the same model of mic so I think that's still a pretty close match. You have to imagine how bad and uneven those mics have to be in order to really falsify the results THAT bad. And if they did, they could never falsify the sustain but only the frequency content. But just imagine how different they have to be in order to falsify those results. Why do engineers like certain models of mics more than others? Because they know what they can get out of them and they know what they sound like. If you ask engineers who worked in lots of different studios, they will tell you the same thing. 4) The room is treated and the mics were placed very close to the drums. If you just record in an untreated room at home, you might place the tom in the wrong spot an catch a room mode. In a professional studio the rooms are treated to avoid these kinds of modes and problems. And again - try to imagine how bad the room has to be in order to falsify the results so much that our results would be not valid. And after all of this you could think about what the results really tell us: They´re not contrary to the believes most of the drum makers were telling people all those years. The assumption most people had was: a steeper edge will make more overtones and more high frequencies. And that's exactely what our results pointed out. If all of the factors you named falsified the tests as much, then the results should have been contrary to the assumptions- don't you think? I think our viewers see that we don't wear lab coats in the video and a human being is playing the toms instead of a standardizes robot. But still I think our results and the whole test are pretty valid. If you published a similar test before, we were not aware of it and we did not want to devalue your test in any way. I have seen some videos that people did in bearing edges, but I haven't seen a test like this, otherwise I wouldn't have claimed it in the video.
@@stdrumsgmbh as a drum maker who has built a few thousand drums and fitted even more heads on even more drums, i can tell you that yes, most same drum heads sound the same, until you get one that does not :) The problem with heads is not always obvious, but even when the material is the same, age and shape has a huge influence. I quite often throw away heads when they are brand new but have a bad shape, and do not sit even on the drum. I first check the bearing edges, but if they are perfect, it is the head. Does not happen often, but it happens. Anyhow, i am just saying that sameness of heads and mikes were not tested and proven, so it has to be assumed.
@@adorodrums This is going to be our last statement in this discussion: How can you claim we did not test the heads just because it's not shown in the video? After we build the drums and put the heads on them, Andreas recieved the Toms from us, removed all of the heads and put them back on again. With his level of expertise I am certain he would have realised any differences in the heads. Also you can listen to the results closely and ask yourself if a faulty drumhead would have falsified the results that much, to make the results not valuable. Listen closely to the changes in frequency and sustain and ask yourself if those changes would only be caused by a faulty drumhead. (by the way age is not a factor - all of them were brand new from the same delivery) Regarding the mics: We interviewed 4 people in the video to give their subjective experience. all of them individually tested the drums live. 2 of them even tested the drums in other rooms too. And we even put the toms in our showroom so all of our customers can play and listen with their own ears to them live aswell. So even if the mics made such a big difference, why did the participants get the same results with their subjective hearing? (Again: they did not just listen in the controlroom - they tested them in the recording room.) If you have your own take on bearing edges, please make a video on the topic and show your results and let's see if they are any different. I think it would help the whole drum community to get the most objective results on the topic. But please don't keep writing more and more arguments under this video. Our comment section is not the place to advertise your business, you got your own channel for that. You've put forward your claims (which is totally fine) and we responded to every single one, let us not turn this into an endless discussion. We wish you a nice week! :)
@@stdrumsgmbh sorry, did not intent to bother you. I was just pointing out the many variables that there are. When it comes to sonic differences of bearing edges, and we supported a student who wrote his bachelor about it, you have to eliminate every possible variable. And most people do not realize that even a similar head, mike and tuning can have a huge impact.
@@stdrumsgmbh I think its perfectly fine for someone to point out that your test is far from being carried out under controlled conditions. There is too many variables, for example; for conclusive results this test would have to be carried out several times using several heads, swapping mics and using the exact amount of force and contact with the head, then having a list of results in which to draw averages from. Attacking someone for saying your experiment sucks and the results are garbage.
Wow, what a truly remarkable experience. As a hand percussionist I really love the punch and warmth of the round - but man, the 30 degree is pure magic for me. Thank you so much for sharing this with the world. Wishing you all great and continued success!!!
Because I like my drums a little controlled, I’d definitely go with a 30 degree bearing edge. I’d do a full round over bearing edge on both sides of the bass drum, and 30 degree edges on the toms. The snare drum, I would do either 45 or 30 degree round over edges.
I build kits with different edge profiles for kicks, toms, fl toms and snares. I play by feel and in my experience there is a difference in the feel of a drum relating to the edge profile. Through experience I've figured out which edges for each drum work best for my playing style + sound. Thanks for this comprehensive video on the sound differences!
I’m an amateur builder. From my experience the only thing that matters with bearing edges is how much contact they make with the head. In other words, a sharp edge will allow the head to sustain more and wont be muted by significant shell contact. A rounder edge will cut back on overtones and sustain and by the nature of more wood touching the head, slightly mute the head. It doesn’t matter if you have a 30 degree with an internal round over, a 30 degree with a 45 counter cut, a 60 degree with an external round over etc. How much wood is touching the head….that’s all that’s gonna make a difference. (At least to my naked ears and from my experience.)
It also matters greatly where the apex of the edge is. For example: All DW drums have the same bearing edge... a single 45 degree cut where the apex is at the outer most part of the shell. This is done to minimize the contribution from the shell to the overall sound of the drum. This is why all DW drums sound the same and only SUCKAZ buy expensive DW drums with fancy wood types... because DW Drums are made on purpose to all sound the same no matter what... which is great if you like that sound. You always know you're going to get it, even if you buy their crappiest bottom of the barrel kit. Having the apex of the bearing edge in the middle of the shell maximizes shell contribution, which is great if you have great wood, thats well-manufactured, and the edges have been resurfaced by hand by a professional.
respectfully disagree. from my experience it will make a difference if the bearing edge sits at the very edge of the drum like so many snares because it will press against the underside of the head's collar and slightly diminish the resonance of the head. As long as it's "off the collar" the head will resonate as unrestricted as possible but (from my experience) it doesn't matter if it's slightliy off the collar or cut as close to the center of the shell as possible. the sharpness/roundness of the edge and whether or not the collar of the head is seated directly on the edge is what makes the only difference in sound@@BeatsAndMeats
@@ghiblinerd6196 Similar to how Sonar makes their shells slightly undersized so the shell always contacts the flat part of the head! But iconic snares like the OG Tama Bell Brass have oversized shells, which are actually quite difficult to tune, but it’s the best sounding snare ever… so maybe the best answer is “it depends“?
Over the past couple of days I’ve realised how big an impact the bearing edge has on the sound. Also that important to maintain the edge over time, ensure it’s still keeping its form and is even.
I do not care for the rather negative comments below. Hairsplitting and it proves nothing to sit down and pointing out this and that ;) - So thank you for a fine and very informative & inspiring video :) Cheers
I’ve used a club date kit (round over edges) in the studio with coated heads and no muffling for perfect results. However now I play a Gretsch Brooklyn (30 degree edges), and I feel it’s the best of both worlds. I get annoying high frequencies with 45s, that I can hear when hitting the drum by itself. Nice video 👍👍
That was fascinating and educational - especially how the round and 60 edges were later adjusted further with different heads. Thanks for doing all this.
Just before the video ended I said "beering edges" out loud to myself a few times and giggled because I like it so much, then you popped in again with the correction haha. I say stick to it! Beering edges uber alles!
Definitely can hear the differences with all the drums and tuning without the visual graphs! My favorite was the vintage bearing edge/high tuned with the coated drum head. I would try to diminish the overtones one way or another. Vintage drums have a deep unmistakable “Ung” sound to them. Greetings from San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA 🇺🇸 Thank you for sharing!
The Older Gretsch had what they called Tone Controls (Muffles) that could be adjusted to suit the ring/overtones the drummer wanted. Due to the mounting requirements of the vintage Gretsch 12x8 toms you could not remove the lower head. My dad actually took the resonant head cut the head leaving about 2 inches all around and mounted them. No loss in sound quality/volume, but made a difference in the overtones. It also simplified the tone adjustment to 1 head instead of having to adjust both when playing live.
well.. thought i knew it all.. after 20 years of building drums.. but I never got around to do this test.. allthough I have had plans for it for 10 years! LOL... THANK YOU: Amazing hov fast the decay is on the 60 degrees. That was new to me.. kind of.. cause it explains why I like my metal snare drums with no bearing edge (just 1,5-2 mm metal thas is rounded).
Excellent video! I really like that rounded edge tuned high. Very clear note with no overtones at all. I have used that edge (actually double rounded) on bass drums but I think it would be good on all drums in a set.
Well done and thanks for this excellent mini-doco. This helps with fleshing out and making audible the info that's online but mostly written. I was a little sceptical that first strike of a tom because the tuning didn't suit it. But once you guys changed heads and tuned higher, you made the point clearly that bearing edges are one important factor that combine with other factors to make a particular drum sound. Hats off to ya Now I'm off to buy some sandpaper
bärrinn äddjäss bärinn äddjäss, bärinn äddjäss,....😉...ich liebe mein Schlagzeug, dass Ihr mir gebaut habt !!! Perfekt ! ( auch die bärinn äddjaäss ). Bis demnächst,...' habe schon was neues, wovon ich denke, dass Ihr es wieder umsetzen könnt. Danke auch .... 👍🤘
I think with larger drums there is a similar conclusion: for a punchy sound with articulate attack, you should probable use a sharper angle and a thicker stiffer shell and for a mellow vintage/jazzy type sound, you should use a round edge or a flatter angle and if possible a thinner shell.
@@stdrumsgmbh Im thinking for the cocktail kick/floor tom, it would be interesting to use eg 60 deg for the kick side (and min round) and a 30 or 45 on the top side. Not sure the natural fundamental is but the shell height is 605mm. Likely will need an emad or something light on the tom/top side. Im making a 10" snare for it...hmm that raises more questions..Vielen Dank!
Thank you for this very interesting test, I was curious too. On a separate argument I'm curious also to understand in which way the depth of the shell is imopacting on the sound and if there is an ideal parameter/correspondence/formula between diameter and depth. Ciao
Thanks for the comment! yes there are lots of interesting parameters yet to compare and to measure. I hope we will be able to make more videos like this to explore how these parameters shape the sound
Awesome video here! Congratulations for the in depth analysis. Allthough this is the most scientific video of all. If you'll want to revisit this in the future, i recommend that the shells would be made from an isotropic material such as Acrylic or steel/brass/aluminum. Wood is an anisotropic material and even if very similar, it can vary in density and rigidity. Also, for the heads and tuning, maybe a Tama Drum dial ( tension) and a Tune -Bot would likely be more precise as of the tension and pitch. Again, congrats!
Watch the kirsch drums video about bearing edges. That guy is from my area and he know his stuff. When you were showing the TH-cam videos his was at the top of the list. He did my pearl kit and they used to sound like trash and now they sound great. Greatly increased the tuning range
In the video he explains how much he has studied bearing edges and that there is actually only One type of edge that is perfect for use with modern plastic shells and that the old drums had different bearing edge types because they were being used with calf skin heads that can basically confirm to any drum and take a time, that’s why when people bring him drums to be surfaced and re edges he only offers one option
Hallo! Ich finde den Ansatz dieses Tests super spannend, hätte mir aber konsequenterweise ein genaueres und einheitlicheres Tuning gewünscht. Ich denke, das ist bei so einem Experiment extrem wichtig, gerade auch, um Skeptiker zu überzeugen. Ich arbeite als Drum Tech und bin selbst seit meinen Anfängen vor mittlerweile 27 Jahren extrem soundbegeistert. Insofern bin ich inhaltlich und grundsätzlich vom Ergebnis her auch ganz bei euch. Aber meine Ansprüche an Genauigkeit sind "leider" auch extrem hoch, weshalb ich mir eine Wiederholung unter wirklich identischen Bedingungen wünschen würde. Ich würde dafür auch meine Dienste zur Verfügung stellen. Übrigens bin ich dankbar für euren Service, den ich in der Vergangenheit schon häufig in Anspruch genommen habe. Alles Gute! P.s.: "Bähring Edsch" ;-)
Hi, wir haben versucht die Stimmung so gut wie möglich identisch zu halten (abgesehen vom Ende, wo die runde und 60° Trommel umgestimmt wird). Ich finde auch, dass unterschiedliche Tonhöhen im Direktvergleich immer vom Sound ablenken, allerdings habe ich nicht das Gefühl, dass die Stimmungen hörbar krass auseinanderliegen. Aber klar auch da gibt es immer noch feinere Ohren - das will ich dir nicht absprechen :) Wenn man sich auf das Sustainverhalten von Grundton und die "Härte" vom Fellsound konzentriert kann man aber trotz Stimmunterschieden die Auswirkung der Gratung ganz gut raushören. Die Toms stehen in unserem Showroom und können gerne auch vor Ort angespielt und umgestimmt werden! (Ich dachte: "Bier"ing Etsch 🍻 )🤣
@@stdrumsgmbh Ich bin da ganz bei @flocore. Vielen Dank für die Mühen! Mit einem TuneBot und Aufhängung der Trommeln auf RIMS hättet Ihr viele Variablen rausnehmen können. Ausserdem stand das 45-Grad-Tom nur teilweise über Teppich, alle anderen über Teppich und das kann einen riesigen Unterschied machen.
As a sound-engineer I wonder why you didn’t use the same microphone for every tom. Or were the microphones calibrated? I own these old white Sennheiser myself and they all sound slightly different compared to each other. And I think a real blind test would be great too. 😉
Hi, I have a snare with 45° bearing edges and would like to make the top one a round edge. Do you think the conversion should be possible/feasible or you think that starting fron a 45 and making it round would be too much trouble? Thanks, amazing video!
Great video guys! Since you only did one comparison for all four edges, are we to assume that the same amount of sonic differences would hold if we tune up or tune down?
Great video! It really answered things for me. Now, when I decide to get my bearing edges redone for some of my kits, will be different choices! I do think the 45 is best overall, which is what i have on my main "rock" kit. I have a 3 pc 20/12/16 stencil kit that I think I am going to have trimmed to a 30. And when I pick my bop kit, i will look for a rounded over kit. Maybe a Gretsch 18/12/14. I also have a Pearl Fiberglass kit that i am refurbishing. Maybe put 60 on them! I wonder which would be best for concert toms though??
Great question about the concert Toms. I think in general it might also affect the higher frequencies but I think I would go for a sharper edge if you tend to tune them very low. For higher tuning I would make it less sharp.
@stdrumsgmbh I have a set of Pearl Fiberglass drums. Many sizes so fat, but only a few concert toms. Once I acquire a few more, I will be rewraping them all to match. Will probably have all the edges gone over, especially the concert toms. I have (2) 24 and 1 22" kick. Looking for a 20" now if possible. 10,12,13 rack toms, 15,16,18 floor toms, 8,10 concerts. Wanting to find 12,13,14,15 concerts too. 😀
I've used, unbeknownst to myself. 45° bearing edge drums for as long as I've played drums, owning a Pearl BLX, Tama earlier on when i first started playing, always i hated the following overtones that the sound gave. I would always use dampening in muffle ring's and tapes near the edges of the shells, I'm talking about some great drums here as well, i just couldn't work out how this could be when every drummer and industry influence would talk about the great sound of all of these wonderful drums. 27 years later... ah ok its the bearing edges, not the shell quality. Obviously, shell quality is very important, but bearing edges equally so. And so, i recently bought a 10 year old Drumcraft series 8, American maple shells, with semi gloss finish also satin chrome hardware, its a beautiful looking drum set. Only the bass drum let's the sound down with it being 22x20", no problems though, I'm I'm going to shorten the depth to 22x15.5", after that i will go over all of the batter side outer bearing edges with a 30° edge router. Thanks for this very informative video. From Liverpool UK 👍
Once the head leaves the edge of the shell, (from out to center of head), it doesnt matter how fast the wood angles away from the head. What does matter is, how sharp the bearing edge is. The sharper , the boingyer the drum will be.
Was fehlt ist ein roundover Edge,also abgerundet nach innen und aussen,die höchste Stelle in der Mitte der Kesselwand.Ansonsten macht es in meiner Erfahrung keinen wirklichen Unterschied,ob der Winkel nach innen 30,45 oder 60 grad ist,entscheident ist das Mass der Abrundung nach aussen,also da wo das Fell aufliegt,direkten Kontakt hat mit dem Kessel.Und was auch was ausmacht ist,ob der Kessel exakte das entsprechende Zollmass hat...12 Zoll also 30,5 cm...oder wie bei Sonor,manchmal auch bei Premier, 6 mm kleiner ist...12 Zoll Kessel dann also nur 29,9 cm Durchmesser....da trifft der Kessel das Fell doch an einer etwas anderen Stelle,was das Stimmen unnd den Sound beeinflusst. Soweit meine 2 Cent....trotzdem ein interessantes Video zu nem oft unterschätzten Detail....cool !
Vielen Dank für den Kommentar! Wir haben in dem Test statt Roundover (Baseball-Schläger) diese Gretsch Gratung genommen, da wir nur sehr dünne 6ply Kessel verwendet haben. Bei diesen Kesseln wäre der Unterschied zwischen Roundover und 45°+rund wahrscheinlich nicht so deutlich geworden, weil es sowieso nicht so viel Auflagefläche gibt. Bei dickeren Kesseln bzw Kesseln mit Verstärkungsringen könnte man aber mit roundover wahrscheinlich noch einen deutlicheren Effekt erzielen. Wir planen in Zukunft nochmal eine überarbeitete Version dieses Videos hochzuladen, wo wir das Thema mit den Kesselmaßen eventuell auch einbauen können. Danke für den Hinweis!
Erstmal vielen Dank dafür 😀 ….ich denke es wäre sinnvoll gewesen: Trommel sehr gleich stimmen Immer selbe Raumposition Immer gleiches MIC Immer gleiches Stativ Kann gut sein das diese 3 Variablen mehr Einfluss auf das Sustain und Obertöne haben als die Gratungen selbst…. Aber will wirklich nicht den Schlaumeier hier spielen. Ist nur so ein Gedanke. Liebe Grüße Johannes Weninger
Danke für den Kommentar und das nette Feedback! Wir haben die Trommeln vorher (und nachher) auch an anderen Orten angespielt und das Ergebnis im Video deckt sich mit der subjektiven Erfahrung, wenn man die Trommeln vor sich hört. Deshalb bin ich zuversichtlich, dass das Video recht aussagekräftig ist. Ich denke bei einer so nahen Mikrophonierung und im akustisch behandelten Raum sollte der Klang schon relativ objektiv sein - aber klar: besser und genauer geht immer, da hast du recht ;)
I'm always skeptical about people online claiming how allegedly "magic" bearing edges can drastically improve the sound of a snare drum. I think the head choice, tuning and muffling plays a way bigger role.
absolutely true! compared to the head choice and tuning the bearing edges only play a very small part. Also on a snare the type of wires and the tension on the wires can change the sound a lot.
Interesting test but why wasn't a double 45 tested? This is a much more common edge than some of the edges you tested. Additionally, single angled edges whether 30, 60, or 45 are all very similar as the surface contact location is the same for all of them, but the physics of a double 45 are fundamentally different as it sits further from the collar and thus the head is able to vibrate more freely. It would have made a more enlightening test.
thanks for the nice feedback! We tried to focus on testing the shapes we do for our customers the most. Of course the video should be interesting for everybody, but in this case it will help them to decide which version to choose.
Using snare stands was just the easiest way for the purpose of the test - as they stand all on snare stands, the effect should be equal on all the toms. We didn't want the greatest possible sound, but just test the difference between the bearing edges
@@stdrumsgmbh I understand, but the difference in a proper stands (or little butty shakers installed on snare stands) would be much bigger between them.
I was curious if they had any drums without an edge to see if any difference from no defined cut edge cause i use a thin 5 ply keller maple shell with inner ply of carbon fibre and it has no bearing edge cut on it i put it in pearl free floater chassis . It has great sound and i play it all time even recorded in studio with it. But they didnt even entertain the idea i guess so ima turn off this video.😢
Most budget import kits of the 2000's (the ones that didn't screw up altogether) put sharp 45 degree edges on drums. They had a thin, bright sound with annoying overtones. This was (IMO) a terrible edge to use for anything. Why make a bright sounding tom, when it makes a 14" tom sound like a 10 or a 12? Drummers just ended up using moongel, pre-damped heads to get rid of what would not be there with a better edge. Drums with edges like gretsch and Mapex soniclear just sound better as is.
So und ich behaupte jetzt mal ganz dreist, daß das nichts mit dem Fräswinkel, der ja gar keinen Fellkontakt hat, zu tun hat, sondern vielmehr mit der Breite der Auflagefläche. Müsste man mal ausprobieren...
So dreist ist das gar nicht 😁 ich glaube du hast da recht. Meistens ergibt sich aber aus einem steileren Winkel weniger Fellkontakt zum Holz. Theoretisch könnte man (um mal einen Extremfall zu beschreiben) am Kesselrand ganz vorne und ganz hinten 1mm mit 60° abfräsen und dann die Mitte flach lassen - diese Kombination würde wohl trotz 60° Winkel mehr abdämpfen als die Runde Gratung 🙂 Also "nur" am Winkel liegt es sicher nicht.
@@stdrumsgmbh Na ja ich bau seit 1991 Djembe und da hab ich schon so manchen Grat gefeilt, ganz unbelastet bin ich also nicht, und genau das war mir eben aufgefallen an Eurer Grafik.. ;-).
Its all garbage, A note is a note. the room has more effect on the recording process than any thing else. I've never heard a great song and thought "Hmm I wonder what bearing edge and shell material that drummer uses"
Maybe we can test some rooms next time ;) I think you missed the point of the video: This video is not about what has the biggest effect on a recording process. This video is about bearing edges on drums - we just shot it in a recording studio in order to get high quality recording that would make the frequency content clear. I don't know your background but I would love to see your video on the topic. It's easy to sit back and say "bearing edges and shell material don't matter at all" but proving your point with tests like we did in our video is the way to backup claims like that. We are confident in our results and we display those four toms in our showroom for everybody who comes in to test them. If you don't hear a difference that's ok to me, but if other people do hear a difference you might have to accept that there might be a difference. We included not only the original recorded sounds in the video but also 4 individual people describing what they heared subjectively. I can't do more to prove our point.
🤣 This comment is garbage. The point of the video is to compare the effect of different bearing edges on drums. Take a rounded edge Ludwig from the 60s and a modern edge DW from the mid 90s into the same room in a recording studio and tell me "it doesn't make a difference". How an instrument sounds at the source has an enormous impact on what it sounds like *in a room* and in turn the recording decisions in order to get a good sound. Which mics to use, which heads to use, muffling, and on and on.
@@cymatic83 Thanks for adding some context to your original post.. My point is that in all the variables that one takes into account when recording a sound, bearing edge has the least impact of them all.. which is why we have a million bearing edge solutions to a problem we never had. Unless you can find me a producer who believes otherwise?
On on some level and a different times in a long history of playing music we all agree with you but that’s not the point here. Buddy rich once said you don’t tune a drum you just tighten it actually he said you don’t tune a drum you tighten it: but that didn’t stop him and probably wouldn’t stop you from visiting the Zildjian factory if you were given a tour by Mr. Zildjian. Your comment seems to reflect your mood and let’s forgive that rare artist who does it labor over mixing his colors the way van Gogh did. Would we still love van Gogh would van Gogh if you could say that if he could just order his colors at Amazon and have it delivered the next day? I was reprimanded at RCA studios by some older colleagues when I was a young beginner in New York for bringing my own favorite drum and cymbals And traps to a gig That included Frank Sinatra and Enough luminaries to keep us rehearsing for 10 days and Recording for pre-records and dance rehearsals. The other percussionist were Dave Carrey and George Devens and they scolded me rightfully saying to just use whatever the rental company brought to the gig and not bring my own stuff. All things considered and the nature of the commercial music industry and the expectation for the musician to make it happen regardless of the equipment is now well understood by me and many others. But let’s consider the words of Saint Thomas Aquinas when he said that wherever there is a frame there is sacred space. Within that sacred space we are next inclined to harmonize. And if --this is a big if and occurs only rarely we can go to the next step then we would be expected to be able to illuminate that sacred space within that frame in which an object is harmonized. So if we as musicians are using sound to reflect exactly the emotion that we are feeling, then we just us and the artist might be forgiven for obsessing the same way Van Gogh obsessed over ‘yellow’ or Red. Even to the point of spending money he didn’t have his material. Sorry for any mistakes in the writing but I hope you get my drift. Sincerely, Michael Hinton percussionist. Just one of an inexhaustible definitions for genius is the ability to articulate your self 100%.
I have a two questions. I'd like to put together an acrylic kit with concert toms. If I had the bearing edges cut to a rounded or 30" edge would that add the extra low end and mids it seems to be missing? How would that affect the punch and sustain on an acrylic concert tom?
thanks for the comment! it is very tough to say exactely what the result will be. In general a flatter bearing edge with more contact will have a dampening effect on the drumheads which means the higher overtones will be reduced and ring shorter, but also the dampening will shorten the sustain of the fundamental a bit aswell. We also sell acrylic shell and use them pretty frequently, but we haven't dont a test with them similar to this video to get a deeper look on the behaviour with a flatter edge. I don't think you would be able to make them sound as warm as wood, but it still should sound different compared to a sharper edge. In theory the sustain should get shorter and the attack might be less "clicky" but because it's acrylic I guess it might still have plenty of punch anyways
My Pearl fiberglass concert toms from the 70s & 80s have round edges, I wondered why when I got them, but dampening overtones and increasing bottom end would make sense.
@@markuschakra yes, I guess the fiberglass shells are harder and would naturally have a higher overtone content compared to softer materials like wood. I think the round edges balance that out a bit.
The clear heads on each bearing edge have a buzz that comes in directly after the strike. It was much less pronounced on the 30 degree edge although you could still detect it. With the coated head it was almost imperceptible. Were these 13" toms? I've noticed this issue with almost every 13" tom I've heard or played. I don't have that problem with my Ronn Dunnett stainless 13". I've never had that problem with any of my 12" toms from any other brand and any other sizes. My 2005 13" DW Collectors and 1984 13" Gretsch on the other hand do have it. As long as I use a coated head on the Gretsch the problem is as imperceptible as it is with your 30" edge and coated head setup. But the DW despite head combinations is unusable to my ears. It's not the hardware and it's never been mishandled or dropped. Yet this problem has persisted in every conceivable environment and methods of mounting. The frustrating part is it seems other than one other person, the sound person on the mainboard at a fairly large event, have ever noticed it. I've never used the drum since.
thanks for the comment! The toms in the video are 12x8". I am not 100% sure that I can identify the buzz you mean but I will have to listen again on better speakers. Did you experiment with different clear heads?
Interesting, I liked the 30 degree drum the most, lots of deep fundamental tone, but slightly less overtones. The 45 degree drum has some quite annoying overtones. I wonder if using a suspension mount instead of a snare stand might be better for a test like this. The snare stand can often kill the sustain on a tom!
My experience mounting toms on a snare stand (as done in this test) is that it chokes the sustain a LOT. So I would love to have heard these drums all mounted on a system that allowed for the greatest possible resonance - eg. RIMS type mounts. I think that would have highlighted the differences even more profoundly.
I’m obsessed with these comparisons and questions as well. I’ve done videos on 6 different materials with same bearings edges and tuning, and of course tested just about every drum head, and also tested tom depth, with all other things being the same. Thank you so much for this bearing edge one! On that tom tuning/material/size, I really liked the 30 the best. It seemed to retain the deep punch of the roundedge but with more sustain. Best of both worlds!
Nice. We did this a few years ago with 3x 12” toms and had similar results.
One problem with that all these tests: 1) the heads are not checked on similarities - we just assume that the same heads will also sound the same. 2) even slightest differences in tuning can result in different sound even when you have similar drums. 3) four different mikes are used, similar, but again, we have to assume that they all sound exactly the same. Which is not always the case. Especially when it comes to measuring differences, it would have been best to only use one mike.
4) each drum was played on a different spot in the room. It would have been better to have them played all in the same spot to eliminate the possibility of a different room resonance. You’d be surprised how big the influence is of a room.
So we have to assume that all these points do not matter, but cannot be sure. Especially using several mikes and not just one, and the different spots in the room have potential to influence results. And you never know how similar tuning is… sigh… so this did not settle the discussion as much as it was advertised.
1) Well I think Remos production-process is as even and professional as it gets in drumheads. If you got heads with a natural material it's a different story. The plastic material and aluminum rims are pretty even as they are massproduced.
2) You can hear in the video that even with our amount of care that there are small pitch differences. There is a difference between pitch and frequency response. You can clearly hear how the overtones and the sustain of the fundamental notes change independend of the slight pitch differences.
Obviously it's easier to match the pitch on 4 toms standing right next to each other instead of using one head on 4 shells, one after the other.
3) We used the same model of mic so I think that's still a pretty close match. You have to imagine how bad and uneven those mics have to be in order to really falsify the results THAT bad.
And if they did, they could never falsify the sustain but only the frequency content. But just imagine how different they have to be in order to falsify those results.
Why do engineers like certain models of mics more than others? Because they know what they can get out of them and they know what they sound like. If you ask engineers who worked in lots of different studios, they will tell you the same thing.
4) The room is treated and the mics were placed very close to the drums.
If you just record in an untreated room at home, you might place the tom in the wrong spot an catch a room mode. In a professional studio the rooms are treated to avoid these kinds of modes and problems. And again - try to imagine how bad the room has to be in order to falsify the results so much that our results would be not valid.
And after all of this you could think about what the results really tell us:
They´re not contrary to the believes most of the drum makers were telling people all those years.
The assumption most people had was: a steeper edge will make more overtones and more high frequencies. And that's exactely what our results pointed out.
If all of the factors you named falsified the tests as much, then the results should have been contrary to the assumptions- don't you think?
I think our viewers see that we don't wear lab coats in the video and a human being is playing the toms instead of a standardizes robot. But still I think our results and the whole test are pretty valid.
If you published a similar test before, we were not aware of it and we did not want to devalue your test in any way. I have seen some videos that people did in bearing edges, but I haven't seen a test like this, otherwise I wouldn't have claimed it in the video.
@@stdrumsgmbh as a drum maker who has built a few thousand drums and fitted even more heads on even more drums, i can tell you that yes, most same drum heads sound the same, until you get one that does not :)
The problem with heads is not always obvious, but even when the material is the same, age and shape has a huge influence. I quite often throw away heads when they are brand new but have a bad shape, and do not sit even on the drum. I first check the bearing edges, but if they are perfect, it is the head. Does not happen often, but it happens. Anyhow, i am just saying that sameness of heads and mikes were not tested and proven, so it has to be assumed.
@@adorodrums This is going to be our last statement in this discussion:
How can you claim we did not test the heads just because it's not shown in the video?
After we build the drums and put the heads on them, Andreas recieved the Toms from us, removed all of the heads and put them back on again.
With his level of expertise I am certain he would have realised any differences in the heads.
Also you can listen to the results closely and ask yourself if a faulty drumhead would have falsified the results that much, to make the results not valuable.
Listen closely to the changes in frequency and sustain and ask yourself if those changes would only be caused by a faulty drumhead. (by the way age is not a factor - all of them were brand new from the same delivery)
Regarding the mics: We interviewed 4 people in the video to give their subjective experience. all of them individually tested the drums live.
2 of them even tested the drums in other rooms too. And we even put the toms in our showroom so all of our customers can play and listen with their own ears to them live aswell.
So even if the mics made such a big difference, why did the participants get the same results with their subjective hearing?
(Again: they did not just listen in the controlroom - they tested them in the recording room.)
If you have your own take on bearing edges, please make a video on the topic and show your results and let's see if they are any different.
I think it would help the whole drum community to get the most objective results on the topic.
But please don't keep writing more and more arguments under this video. Our comment section is not the place to advertise your business, you got your own channel for that.
You've put forward your claims (which is totally fine) and we responded to every single one, let us not turn this into an endless discussion.
We wish you a nice week! :)
@@stdrumsgmbh sorry, did not intent to bother you. I was just pointing out the many variables that there are. When it comes to sonic differences of bearing edges, and we supported a student who wrote his bachelor about it, you have to eliminate every possible variable. And most people do not realize that even a similar head, mike and tuning can have a huge impact.
@@stdrumsgmbh I think its perfectly fine for someone to point out that your test is far from being carried out under controlled conditions.
There is too many variables, for example; for conclusive results this test would have to be carried out several times using several heads, swapping mics and using the exact amount of force and contact with the head, then having a list of results in which to draw averages from.
Attacking someone for saying your experiment sucks and the results are garbage.
Wow, what a truly remarkable experience. As a hand percussionist I really love the punch and warmth of the round - but man, the 30 degree is pure magic for me. Thank you so much for sharing this with the world. Wishing you all great and continued success!!!
Because I like my drums a little controlled, I’d definitely go with a 30 degree bearing edge. I’d do a full round over bearing edge on both sides of the bass drum, and 30 degree edges on the toms. The snare drum, I would do either 45 or 30 degree round over edges.
I build kits with different edge profiles for kicks, toms, fl toms and snares. I play by feel and in my experience there is a difference in the feel of a drum relating to the edge profile. Through experience I've figured out which edges for each drum work best for my playing style + sound. Thanks for this comprehensive video on the sound differences!
I’m an amateur builder. From my experience the only thing that matters with bearing edges is how much contact they make with the head. In other words, a sharp edge will allow the head to sustain more and wont be muted by significant shell contact. A rounder edge will cut back on overtones and sustain and by the nature of more wood touching the head, slightly mute the head. It doesn’t matter if you have a 30 degree with an internal round over, a 30 degree with a 45 counter cut, a 60 degree with an external round over etc. How much wood is touching the head….that’s all that’s gonna make a difference. (At least to my naked ears and from my experience.)
Exactly!!!
It also matters greatly where the apex of the edge is. For example: All DW drums have the same bearing edge... a single 45 degree cut where the apex is at the outer most part of the shell. This is done to minimize the contribution from the shell to the overall sound of the drum. This is why all DW drums sound the same and only SUCKAZ buy expensive DW drums with fancy wood types... because DW Drums are made on purpose to all sound the same no matter what... which is great if you like that sound. You always know you're going to get it, even if you buy their crappiest bottom of the barrel kit. Having the apex of the bearing edge in the middle of the shell maximizes shell contribution, which is great if you have great wood, thats well-manufactured, and the edges have been resurfaced by hand by a professional.
respectfully disagree. from my experience it will make a difference if the bearing edge sits at the very edge of the drum like so many snares because it will press against the underside of the head's collar and slightly diminish the resonance of the head. As long as it's "off the collar" the head will resonate as unrestricted as possible but (from my experience) it doesn't matter if it's slightliy off the collar or cut as close to the center of the shell as possible. the sharpness/roundness of the edge and whether or not the collar of the head is seated directly on the edge is what makes the only difference in sound@@BeatsAndMeats
@@ghiblinerd6196 Similar to how Sonar makes their shells slightly undersized so the shell always contacts the flat part of the head! But iconic snares like the OG Tama Bell Brass have oversized shells, which are actually quite difficult to tune, but it’s the best sounding snare ever… so maybe the best answer is “it depends“?
there are always exceptions to the rule@@BeatsAndMeats
Over the past couple of days I’ve realised how big an impact the bearing edge has on the sound. Also that important to maintain the edge over time, ensure it’s still keeping its form and is even.
I do not care for the rather negative comments below. Hairsplitting and it proves nothing to sit down and pointing out this and that ;) - So thank you for a fine and very informative & inspiring video :) Cheers
Vielen Dank, dass Sie ein umfassendes Video zu Lagerkanten erstellt haben. Das ist sehr nützlich, und Sie haben hervorragende Arbeit geleistet.
I’ve used a club date kit (round over edges) in the studio with coated heads and no muffling for perfect results. However now I play a Gretsch Brooklyn (30 degree edges), and I feel it’s the best of both worlds. I get annoying high frequencies with 45s, that I can hear when hitting the drum by itself. Nice video 👍👍
The 60 degree bearing edge with the emperor sounded AMAZING. Absolutely perfect for metal.
That was fascinating and educational - especially how the round and 60 edges were later adjusted further with different heads. Thanks for doing all this.
Definitely ROUND BEARING EDGE 4 me..We all have our own sound we're lookin 4..Thanks 4 the insight on the diffrence in bearing edges..It's huge..
*looking.
Thanks for this professional Comparison...IT really opens my eyes.
I liked the vintage!!! The tone was ringing but pure.
Just before the video ended I said "beering edges" out loud to myself a few times and giggled because I like it so much, then you popped in again with the correction haha.
I say stick to it! Beering edges uber alles!
hahaha thanks for encouraging 🤣🍻
Definitely can hear the differences with all the drums and tuning without the visual graphs! My favorite was the vintage bearing edge/high tuned with the coated drum head. I would try to diminish the overtones one way or another. Vintage drums have a deep unmistakable “Ung” sound to them. Greetings from San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA 🇺🇸 Thank you for sharing!
The Older Gretsch had what they called Tone Controls (Muffles) that could be adjusted to suit the ring/overtones the drummer wanted.
Due to the mounting requirements of the vintage Gretsch 12x8 toms you could not remove the lower head. My dad actually took the resonant head cut the head leaving about 2 inches all around and mounted them. No loss in sound quality/volume, but made a difference in the overtones. It also simplified the tone adjustment to 1 head instead of having to adjust both when playing live.
Immer noch das wichtigste und beste Video zu dem Thema! Danke Gerd!!!!!
Very informative indeed, don't know if I'm spelling correctly but, dunka
well.. thought i knew it all.. after 20 years of building drums.. but I never got around to do this test.. allthough I have had plans for it for 10 years! LOL... THANK YOU: Amazing hov fast the decay is on the 60 degrees. That was new to me.. kind of.. cause it explains why I like my metal snare drums with no bearing edge (just 1,5-2 mm metal thas is rounded).
Excellent video, thank you for this. I could hear the differences and didn't think it was just manufacturers marketing copy. Well done!!
Excellent video! I really like that rounded edge tuned high. Very clear note with no overtones at all. I have used that edge (actually double rounded) on bass drums but I think it would be good on all drums in a set.
Sehr sehr interessant!! Danke für diesen ausführlichen Test unter Laborbedingungen.
Well done and thanks for this excellent mini-doco. This helps with fleshing out and making audible the info that's online but mostly written.
I was a little sceptical that first strike of a tom because the tuning didn't suit it. But once you guys changed heads and tuned higher, you made the point clearly that bearing edges are one important factor that combine with other factors to make a particular drum sound. Hats off to ya
Now I'm off to buy some sandpaper
Thanks for this super helpful video! I'd love to see a similar comparison for snare drums
Thanks a lot! All of us only read about it milion times in every catalogue... Now we know to named what we want... So easy... 😉 one more.: Thank you!
bärrinn äddjäss bärinn äddjäss, bärinn äddjäss,....😉...ich liebe mein Schlagzeug, dass Ihr mir gebaut habt !!! Perfekt ! ( auch die bärinn äddjaäss ).
Bis demnächst,...' habe schon was neues, wovon ich denke, dass Ihr es wieder umsetzen könnt.
Danke auch .... 👍🤘
Vielen Dank für das nette Feedback! 😁
What about bass drums? Im making a cocktail kit with a 16"Floor/Kick...makes me wonder about batter vs res for that drum??
I think with larger drums there is a similar conclusion: for a punchy sound with articulate attack, you should probable use a sharper angle and a thicker stiffer shell and for a mellow vintage/jazzy type sound, you should use a round edge or a flatter angle and if possible a thinner shell.
@@stdrumsgmbh Im thinking for the cocktail kick/floor tom, it would be interesting to use eg 60 deg for the kick side (and min round) and a 30 or 45 on the top side. Not sure the natural fundamental is but the shell height is 605mm. Likely will need an emad or something light on the tom/top side. Im making a 10" snare for it...hmm that raises more questions..Vielen Dank!
Excellent! Thanks for your works!
Thank you for this very interesting test, I was curious too. On a separate argument I'm curious also to understand in which way the depth of the shell is imopacting on the sound and if there is an ideal parameter/correspondence/formula between diameter and depth. Ciao
Thanks for the comment! yes there are lots of interesting parameters yet to compare and to measure. I hope we will be able to make more videos like this to explore how these parameters shape the sound
Awesome video here! Congratulations for the in depth analysis. Allthough this is the most scientific video of all. If you'll want to revisit this in the future, i recommend that the shells would be made from an isotropic material such as Acrylic or steel/brass/aluminum. Wood is an anisotropic material and even if very similar, it can vary in density and rigidity. Also, for the heads and tuning, maybe a Tama Drum dial ( tension) and a Tune -Bot would likely be more precise as of the tension and pitch. Again, congrats!
so cool. thanks so much.
Watch the kirsch drums video about bearing edges. That guy is from my area and he know his stuff. When you were showing the TH-cam videos his was at the top of the list. He did my pearl kit and they used to sound like trash and now they sound great. Greatly increased the tuning range
In the video he explains how much he has studied bearing edges and that there is actually only One type of edge that is perfect for use with modern plastic shells and that the old drums had different bearing edge types because they were being used with calf skin heads that can basically confirm to any drum and take a time, that’s why when people bring him drums to be surfaced and re edges he only offers one option
Hallo! Ich finde den Ansatz dieses Tests super spannend, hätte mir aber konsequenterweise ein genaueres und einheitlicheres Tuning gewünscht. Ich denke, das ist bei so einem Experiment extrem wichtig, gerade auch, um Skeptiker zu überzeugen. Ich arbeite als Drum Tech und bin selbst seit meinen Anfängen vor mittlerweile 27 Jahren extrem soundbegeistert. Insofern bin ich inhaltlich und grundsätzlich vom Ergebnis her auch ganz bei euch. Aber meine Ansprüche an Genauigkeit sind "leider" auch extrem hoch, weshalb ich mir eine Wiederholung unter wirklich identischen Bedingungen wünschen würde. Ich würde dafür auch meine Dienste zur Verfügung stellen.
Übrigens bin ich dankbar für euren Service, den ich in der Vergangenheit schon häufig in Anspruch genommen habe. Alles Gute!
P.s.: "Bähring Edsch" ;-)
Hi, wir haben versucht die Stimmung so gut wie möglich identisch zu halten (abgesehen vom Ende, wo die runde und 60° Trommel umgestimmt wird). Ich finde auch, dass unterschiedliche Tonhöhen im Direktvergleich immer vom Sound ablenken, allerdings habe ich nicht das Gefühl, dass die Stimmungen hörbar krass auseinanderliegen. Aber klar auch da gibt es immer noch feinere Ohren - das will ich dir nicht absprechen :) Wenn man sich auf das Sustainverhalten von Grundton und die "Härte" vom Fellsound konzentriert kann man aber trotz Stimmunterschieden die Auswirkung der Gratung ganz gut raushören. Die Toms stehen in unserem Showroom und können gerne auch vor Ort angespielt und umgestimmt werden!
(Ich dachte: "Bier"ing Etsch 🍻 )🤣
@@stdrumsgmbh Ich bin da ganz bei @flocore. Vielen Dank für die Mühen! Mit einem TuneBot und Aufhängung der Trommeln auf RIMS hättet Ihr viele Variablen rausnehmen können. Ausserdem stand das 45-Grad-Tom nur teilweise über Teppich, alle anderen über Teppich und das kann einen riesigen Unterschied machen.
Thanks a lot for this really interesting experience.
Very informational!
As a sound-engineer I wonder why you didn’t use the same microphone for every tom. Or were the microphones calibrated?
I own these old white Sennheiser myself and they all sound slightly different compared to each other.
And I think a real blind test would be great too. 😉
old MD421, which those are, can sound way different!! Absolutly right!!
I think they all sounded the same
Hi, I have a snare with 45° bearing edges and would like to make the top one a round edge. Do you think the conversion should be possible/feasible or you think that starting fron a 45 and making it round would be too much trouble? Thanks, amazing video!
yes it's possible, but you may loose a couple milimeters of the height of the shell - but not significantly
Great video guys! Since you only did one comparison for all four edges, are we to assume that the same amount of sonic differences would hold if we tune up or tune down?
this channel so amazing, why only have 1,6k subscriber
Thanks a lot! I hope we get more subs in the future :)
thank you so much for this information!
Well, this was enlightening! I'm guessing the 30 degree edge is a big part of the "great Gretsch sound."
Exellent DemoI learned something new Thank You!! ....ST drums
Great video! It really answered things for me. Now, when I decide to get my bearing edges redone for some of my kits, will be different choices! I do think the 45 is best overall, which is what i have on my main "rock" kit. I have a 3 pc 20/12/16 stencil kit that I think I am going to have trimmed to a 30. And when I pick my bop kit, i will look for a rounded over kit. Maybe a Gretsch 18/12/14. I also have a Pearl Fiberglass kit that i am refurbishing. Maybe put 60 on them!
I wonder which would be best for concert toms though??
Great question about the concert Toms. I think in general it might also affect the higher frequencies but I think I would go for a sharper edge if you tend to tune them very low. For higher tuning I would make it less sharp.
@stdrumsgmbh I have a set of Pearl Fiberglass drums. Many sizes so fat, but only a few concert toms. Once I acquire a few more, I will be rewraping them all to match. Will probably have all the edges gone over, especially the concert toms. I have (2) 24 and 1 22" kick. Looking for a 20" now if possible. 10,12,13 rack toms, 15,16,18 floor toms, 8,10 concerts. Wanting to find 12,13,14,15 concerts too. 😀
Danke das hat überzeugt.
I've used, unbeknownst to myself. 45° bearing edge drums for as long as I've played drums, owning a Pearl BLX, Tama earlier on when i first started playing, always i hated the following overtones that the sound gave.
I would always use dampening in muffle ring's and tapes near the edges of the shells, I'm talking about some great drums here as well, i just couldn't work out how this could be when every drummer and industry influence would talk about the great sound of all of these wonderful drums.
27 years later... ah ok its the bearing edges, not the shell quality. Obviously, shell quality is very important, but bearing edges equally so.
And so, i recently bought a 10 year old Drumcraft series 8, American maple shells, with semi gloss finish also satin chrome hardware, its a beautiful looking drum set.
Only the bass drum let's the sound down with it being 22x20", no problems though, I'm I'm going to shorten the depth to 22x15.5", after that i will go over all of the batter side outer bearing edges with a 30° edge router.
Thanks for this very informative video. From Liverpool UK 👍
Thanks!🎉🎉🎉
Well they're different tunings as well
Once the head leaves the edge of the shell, (from out to center of head), it doesnt matter how fast the wood angles away from the head. What does matter is, how sharp the bearing edge is. The sharper , the boingyer the drum will be.
Was fehlt ist ein roundover Edge,also abgerundet nach innen und aussen,die höchste Stelle in der Mitte der Kesselwand.Ansonsten macht es in meiner Erfahrung keinen wirklichen Unterschied,ob der Winkel nach innen 30,45 oder 60 grad ist,entscheident ist das Mass der Abrundung nach aussen,also da wo das Fell aufliegt,direkten Kontakt hat mit dem Kessel.Und was auch was ausmacht ist,ob der Kessel exakte das entsprechende Zollmass hat...12 Zoll also 30,5 cm...oder wie bei Sonor,manchmal auch bei Premier, 6 mm kleiner ist...12 Zoll Kessel dann also nur 29,9 cm Durchmesser....da trifft der Kessel das Fell doch an einer etwas anderen Stelle,was das Stimmen unnd den Sound beeinflusst.
Soweit meine 2 Cent....trotzdem ein interessantes Video zu nem oft unterschätzten Detail....cool !
Vielen Dank für den Kommentar! Wir haben in dem Test statt Roundover (Baseball-Schläger) diese Gretsch Gratung genommen, da wir nur sehr dünne 6ply Kessel verwendet haben. Bei diesen Kesseln wäre der Unterschied zwischen Roundover und 45°+rund wahrscheinlich nicht so deutlich geworden, weil es sowieso nicht so viel Auflagefläche gibt. Bei dickeren Kesseln bzw Kesseln mit Verstärkungsringen könnte man aber mit roundover wahrscheinlich noch einen deutlicheren Effekt erzielen. Wir planen in Zukunft nochmal eine überarbeitete Version dieses Videos hochzuladen, wo wir das Thema mit den Kesselmaßen eventuell auch einbauen können. Danke für den Hinweis!
Beering etch??
Yes, because of our famous german national drink ;)
Erstmal vielen Dank dafür 😀
….ich denke es wäre sinnvoll gewesen:
Trommel sehr gleich stimmen
Immer selbe Raumposition
Immer gleiches MIC
Immer gleiches Stativ
Kann gut sein das diese 3 Variablen mehr Einfluss auf das Sustain und Obertöne haben als die Gratungen selbst….
Aber will wirklich nicht den Schlaumeier hier spielen. Ist nur so ein Gedanke.
Liebe Grüße Johannes Weninger
Danke für den Kommentar und das nette Feedback! Wir haben die Trommeln vorher (und nachher) auch an anderen Orten angespielt und das Ergebnis im Video deckt sich mit der subjektiven Erfahrung, wenn man die Trommeln vor sich hört. Deshalb bin ich zuversichtlich, dass das Video recht aussagekräftig ist. Ich denke bei einer so nahen Mikrophonierung und im akustisch behandelten Raum sollte der Klang schon relativ objektiv sein - aber klar: besser und genauer geht immer, da hast du recht ;)
You also need to use a machine to strike the head for consistency. Instead of a person.
I'm always skeptical about people online claiming how allegedly "magic" bearing edges can drastically improve the sound of a snare drum. I think the head choice, tuning and muffling plays a way bigger role.
absolutely true! compared to the head choice and tuning the bearing edges only play a very small part. Also on a snare the type of wires and the tension on the wires can change the sound a lot.
That guy does not look 53...more like 35
Excelente
So.....No one has yet done a comparison between a 45 vs a double 45 and still waiting. A few years now at least.....
Interesting test but why wasn't a double 45 tested? This is a much more common edge than some of the edges you tested. Additionally, single angled edges whether 30, 60, or 45 are all very similar as the surface contact location is the same for all of them, but the physics of a double 45 are fundamentally different as it sits further from the collar and thus the head is able to vibrate more freely. It would have made a more enlightening test.
thanks for the nice feedback! We tried to focus on testing the shapes we do for our customers the most. Of course the video should be interesting for everybody, but in this case it will help them to decide which version to choose.
how tf is that guy 53 and looks 30?!
He didn’t party as hard
you simply kill the resonance of the shell mounting those rack toms on snare stands.
Using snare stands was just the easiest way for the purpose of the test - as they stand all on snare stands, the effect should be equal on all the toms. We didn't want the greatest possible sound, but just test the difference between the bearing edges
@@stdrumsgmbh I understand, but the difference in a proper stands (or little butty shakers installed on snare stands) would be much bigger between them.
Head choice and tuning are the main factors!
30!
Just tell me what edges are the best.
check at 17:20 😁
So, 45degree is a problem.. Overtones on everywhere.
*45 degree, use the space.
103. It will buzz
I was curious if they had any drums without an edge to see if any difference from no defined cut edge cause i use a thin 5 ply keller maple shell with inner ply of carbon fibre and it has no bearing edge cut on it i put it in pearl free floater chassis . It has great sound and i play it all time even recorded in studio with it. But they didnt even entertain the idea i guess so ima turn off this video.😢
Most budget import kits of the 2000's (the ones that didn't screw up altogether) put sharp 45 degree edges on drums. They had a thin, bright sound with annoying overtones. This was (IMO) a terrible edge to use for anything. Why make a bright sounding tom, when it makes a 14" tom sound like a 10 or a 12? Drummers just ended up using moongel, pre-damped heads to get rid of what would not be there with a better edge. Drums with edges like gretsch and Mapex soniclear just sound better as is.
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
So und ich behaupte jetzt mal ganz dreist, daß das nichts mit dem Fräswinkel, der ja gar keinen Fellkontakt hat, zu tun hat, sondern vielmehr mit der Breite der Auflagefläche.
Müsste man mal ausprobieren...
So dreist ist das gar nicht 😁 ich glaube du hast da recht. Meistens ergibt sich aber aus einem steileren Winkel weniger Fellkontakt zum Holz. Theoretisch könnte man (um mal einen Extremfall zu beschreiben) am Kesselrand ganz vorne und ganz hinten 1mm mit 60° abfräsen und dann die Mitte flach lassen - diese Kombination würde wohl trotz 60° Winkel mehr abdämpfen als die Runde Gratung 🙂 Also "nur" am Winkel liegt es sicher nicht.
@@stdrumsgmbh Na ja ich bau seit 1991 Djembe und da hab ich schon so manchen Grat gefeilt, ganz unbelastet bin ich also nicht, und genau das war mir eben aufgefallen an Eurer Grafik.. ;-).
Andreas is 53 and looks 10 years younger than me. I'm 34...
3:09 ...no, actually I didn't care at all about that, and it wouldn't have even crossed my mind if you hadn't mentioned it.
30 all the way.. but I'm a gretsch guy
Wer seine Studio Monitore hinlegt, hat nicht viel verstanden:P
th-cam.com/video/qvgRgMGhtX8/w-d-xo.html bitte dieses video ab 2:49 schauen, danke 😉
60° metal tuning is way too low, metal drummers don't tune like that
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Its all garbage, A note is a note. the room has more effect on the recording process than any thing else.
I've never heard a great song and thought "Hmm I wonder what bearing edge and shell material that drummer uses"
Maybe we can test some rooms next time ;) I think you missed the point of the video: This video is not about what has the biggest effect on a recording process. This video is about bearing edges on drums - we just shot it in a recording studio in order to get high quality recording that would make the frequency content clear.
I don't know your background but I would love to see your video on the topic. It's easy to sit back and say "bearing edges and shell material don't matter at all" but proving your point with tests like we did in our video is the way to backup claims like that. We are confident in our results and we display those four toms in our showroom for everybody who comes in to test them. If you don't hear a difference that's ok to me, but if other people do hear a difference you might have to accept that there might be a difference. We included not only the original recorded sounds in the video but also 4 individual people describing what they heared subjectively. I can't do more to prove our point.
🤣 This comment is garbage. The point of the video is to compare the effect of different bearing edges on drums. Take a rounded edge Ludwig from the 60s and a modern edge DW from the mid 90s into the same room in a recording studio and tell me "it doesn't make a difference". How an instrument sounds at the source has an enormous impact on what it sounds like *in a room* and in turn the recording decisions in order to get a good sound. Which mics to use, which heads to use, muffling, and on and on.
@@cymatic83 Thanks for adding some context to your original post.. My point is that in all the variables that one takes into account when recording a sound, bearing edge has the least impact of them all.. which is why we have a million bearing edge solutions to a problem we never had. Unless you can find me a producer who believes otherwise?
On on some level and a different times in a long history of playing music we all agree with you but that’s not the point here. Buddy rich once said you don’t tune a drum you just tighten it actually he said you don’t tune a drum you tighten it: but that didn’t stop him and probably wouldn’t stop you from visiting the Zildjian factory if you were given a tour by Mr. Zildjian. Your comment seems to reflect your mood and let’s forgive that rare artist who does it labor over mixing his colors the way van Gogh did. Would we still love van Gogh would van Gogh if you could say that if he could just order his colors at Amazon and have it delivered the next day? I was reprimanded at RCA studios by some older colleagues when I was a young beginner in New York for bringing my own favorite drum and cymbals And traps to a gig That included Frank Sinatra and Enough luminaries to keep us rehearsing for 10 days and Recording for pre-records and dance rehearsals. The other percussionist were Dave Carrey and George Devens and they scolded me rightfully saying to just use whatever the rental company brought to the gig and not bring my own stuff. All things considered and the nature of the commercial music industry and the expectation for the musician to make it happen regardless of the equipment is now well understood by me and many others. But let’s consider the words of Saint Thomas Aquinas when he said that wherever there is a frame there is sacred space. Within that sacred space we are next inclined to harmonize. And if --this is a big if and occurs only rarely we can go to the next step then we would be expected to be able to illuminate that sacred space within that frame in which an object is harmonized. So if we as musicians are using sound to reflect exactly the emotion that we are feeling, then we just us and the artist might be forgiven for obsessing the same way Van Gogh obsessed over ‘yellow’ or Red. Even to the point of spending money he didn’t have his material. Sorry for any mistakes in the writing but I hope you get my drift. Sincerely, Michael Hinton percussionist. Just one of an inexhaustible definitions for genius is the ability to articulate your self 100%.
@@michaeljhintonpiano too long to read dude, you have way too much time on your hands
I have a two questions. I'd like to put together an acrylic kit with concert toms. If I had the bearing edges cut to a rounded or 30" edge would that add the extra low end and mids it seems to be missing? How would that affect the punch and sustain on an acrylic concert tom?
thanks for the comment! it is very tough to say exactely what the result will be. In general a flatter bearing edge with more contact will have a dampening effect on the drumheads which means the higher overtones will be reduced and ring shorter, but also the dampening will shorten the sustain of the fundamental a bit aswell. We also sell acrylic shell and use them pretty frequently, but we haven't dont a test with them similar to this video to get a deeper look on the behaviour with a flatter edge. I don't think you would be able to make them sound as warm as wood, but it still should sound different compared to a sharper edge. In theory the sustain should get shorter and the attack might be less "clicky" but because it's acrylic I guess it might still have plenty of punch anyways
@@stdrumsgmbh Thank you for your response. I'm going to have to think about that.
My Pearl fiberglass concert toms from the 70s & 80s have round edges, I wondered why when I got them, but dampening overtones and increasing bottom end would make sense.
@@markuschakra yes, I guess the fiberglass shells are harder and would naturally have a higher overtone content compared to softer materials like wood. I think the round edges balance that out a bit.
The clear heads on each bearing edge have a buzz that comes in directly after the strike. It was much less pronounced on the 30 degree edge although you could still detect it. With the coated head it was almost imperceptible. Were these 13" toms? I've noticed this issue with almost every 13" tom I've heard or played. I don't have that problem with my Ronn Dunnett stainless 13". I've never had that problem with any of my 12" toms from any other brand and any other sizes. My 2005 13" DW Collectors and 1984 13" Gretsch on the other hand do have it. As long as I use a coated head on the Gretsch the problem is as imperceptible as it is with your 30" edge and coated head setup. But the DW despite head combinations is unusable to my ears. It's not the hardware and it's never been mishandled or dropped. Yet this problem has persisted in every conceivable environment and methods of mounting. The frustrating part is it seems other than one other person, the sound person on the mainboard at a fairly large event, have ever noticed it. I've never used the drum since.
thanks for the comment! The toms in the video are 12x8". I am not 100% sure that I can identify the buzz you mean but I will have to listen again on better speakers. Did you experiment with different clear heads?
@@stdrumsgmbh No I didn't but I did try coated emperors and ambassadors.
Try another brand. I notice it with remo a lot
If you can really play it doesn’t matter.