Steve’s videos are the best - I’ve learned so much from the Tues Tune series. He always teaches me something new that completely agrees with my own experience (HSR - LSR overlapping.) I can’t wait to get one of these for my SB160. Def gonna upgrade to one in ‘25.
Great to see you guys are back on youtube, just a few questions, i always thought a push/pull piston would create alot of lag/hysteresis, like in the old dhx2/x2, thats why when you want to custom tune them they add a rebound side stack to lower the lag. But you say yours has very little hysteresis how can that be?
Hysteresis is to do with how much volume of oil needs to be displaced (which can be directly correlated with shaft displacement) before it's possible to generate a given force, which occurs during acceleration (but is not due to acceleration per se). That oil displacement requirement comes from the elastic deformation of every part of the shock that's pressurised - adding a shim stack to the main piston does absolutely nothing to change this if you don't also change the stiffness of the chassis structure or reduce how much of it is pressurized. Displacing more oil with a solid piston helps offset the elastic lag by using the greater mass/inertia of the oil column to increase the damping force during the acceleration.
"Response" refers to how quickly the damper moves (compresses) after contacting a bump. Fox claimed they could improve this delay by 6 milli seconds by the method in which they tune their dampers. My research shows the same. At initial movement the piston pushes on the oil in the direction of compression, thats why we have acceleration, once the damper reaches peak velocity (where the forces are equal) the oil begins to push back on the piston, hence the damper begins to decelerate. The pressure gradient for any valve is the required pressure drop for a given flow rate. Incidentally this is just the same as "net force" for a given velocity. With a more traditional damper arrangement its simply that the midvalve is how quickly you transfer force to the fluid (from the bump) and the basevalve is how quickly the fluid pushes back (energy dissipation) I'll add to that, nothing pushes on the annulus. The force calculation for a shock is no different to any other hydraulic cylinder, you just need to use the dynamic pressure to do the math. This just means subtracting the static pressure from your measured pressure and wallah dynamic "force"
If you're referencing what Sergio talked about on the Vital podcast, Fox actually claimed that they could improve the damper's force generation rate, so that they could see it building force within 6 milliseconds. Again this is actually a more rapid OPPOSITION to movement, rather than a more rapid motion of the wheel. It is easy to confuse the two when using the term "response" but they are literal opposites - one literally opposes the other. The damper deceleration is due to the sum of ALL forces acting on it, including the spring and whatever other input is happening at the sprung mass and the wheel. It is not really specific to the damper internals - even a blown damper goes through the acceleration to peak velocity and deceleration back to zero, just because of the spring. "With a more traditional damper arrangement its simply that the midvalve is how quickly you transfer force to the fluid (from the bump) and the basevalve is how quickly the fluid pushes back (energy dissipation)" Not really sure what you mean there but on a technical level that description is not really accurate. By definition, energy is dissipated anywhere that work is done to convert kinetic energy into thermal energy, which occurs at any flow restriction including the midvalve, base valve or chassis flow restrictions. "I'll add to that, nothing pushes on the annulus." It absolutely does! Damper force is generated by the difference in hydrostatic pressures on either side of the piston, and the respective areas they act upon - the annulus area on the shaft side of the piston (the chamber that's pressurised during the rebound stroke), and the annulus + shaft area on the non-shaft side (ie the full area of the piston). I think you are using ambiguous (and technically incorrect) terminology here with respect to "dynamic pressure" and "static pressure" though I think I understand what you mean ('static" as you are using it meaning the internal gas charge pressure when the shock is static, and "dynamic" meaning the internal pressures in each chamber when the shock is moving). For technical clarity on terminology, when calculating forces in a damper, you use hydrostatic pressure, not dynamic pressure. Dynamic pressure (0.5 x Density x q^2) is a calculation of the kinetic energy of the fluid using the Bernoulli fixed flow rate equations, it's a form of stored potential energy, but the hydrostatic pressure is what actually generates the force that acts on the piston.
Babe wake up Vorsprung’s newest curriculum just dropped 🔥
We were sold as soon as we saw Nico ripping that trail!
Steve’s videos are the best - I’ve learned so much from the Tues Tune series. He always teaches me something new that completely agrees with my own experience (HSR - LSR overlapping.) I can’t wait to get one of these for my SB160. Def gonna upgrade to one in ‘25.
Thanks for the kind words!
Steeeeve! Great to see you again!
awesome platform, wishing you much success
Great to see you again Steve! Thanks for all you have done for the sport. I’m running a SECUS on two of my bikes and someday I hope a Telum. Cheers. 🙌
I’ve always suspected high speed rebound was an adjustment too far!! Your new shock looks amazing and I’m sure it’ll sell like crack!!
Great work Steve!
Steve! We missed you!
will you post some schemes (internal parts, with part numbers, sizes for seals,..) of your shock on a website?
They'll be available on our b2b yes. Seal kits are available directly.
NICE WORK!
Time to nerd out again!!!!
It’s been too long, Steve! Great video great to see you back with a brilliant product mindset for a new product. Less marketing more riding.
Thank you!
@@VorsprungSuspension will you post some schemes (internal parts, with part numbers, sizes for seals,..) of your shock on a website?
That looks beautifully made. Great explanation too. Looking forward to the next one...
Yes!
Great to see you guys are back on youtube, just a few questions, i always thought a push/pull piston would create alot of lag/hysteresis, like in the old dhx2/x2, thats why when you want to custom tune them they add a rebound side stack to lower the lag. But you say yours has very little hysteresis how can that be?
Hysteresis is to do with how much volume of oil needs to be displaced (which can be directly correlated with shaft displacement) before it's possible to generate a given force, which occurs during acceleration (but is not due to acceleration per se). That oil displacement requirement comes from the elastic deformation of every part of the shock that's pressurised - adding a shim stack to the main piston does absolutely nothing to change this if you don't also change the stiffness of the chassis structure or reduce how much of it is pressurized. Displacing more oil with a solid piston helps offset the elastic lag by using the greater mass/inertia of the oil column to increase the damping force during the acceleration.
hell yeah (for the a!go)
Cool
Once again, your new movie has turned my brain into mashed potatoes - delicious and slightly confusing. I’ve really missed that feeling!
"Response" refers to how quickly the damper moves (compresses) after contacting a bump.
Fox claimed they could improve this delay by 6 milli seconds by the method in which they tune their dampers.
My research shows the same.
At initial movement the piston pushes on the oil in the direction of compression, thats why we have acceleration, once the damper reaches peak velocity (where the forces are equal) the oil begins to push back on the piston, hence the damper begins to decelerate.
The pressure gradient for any valve is the required pressure drop for a given flow rate.
Incidentally this is just the same as "net force" for a given velocity.
With a more traditional damper arrangement its simply that the midvalve is how quickly you transfer force to the fluid (from the bump) and the basevalve is how quickly the fluid pushes back (energy dissipation)
I'll add to that, nothing pushes on the annulus.
The force calculation for a shock is no different to any other hydraulic cylinder, you just need to use the dynamic pressure to do the math. This just means subtracting the static pressure from your measured pressure and wallah dynamic "force"
If you're referencing what Sergio talked about on the Vital podcast, Fox actually claimed that they could improve the damper's force generation rate, so that they could see it building force within 6 milliseconds. Again this is actually a more rapid OPPOSITION to movement, rather than a more rapid motion of the wheel. It is easy to confuse the two when using the term "response" but they are literal opposites - one literally opposes the other.
The damper deceleration is due to the sum of ALL forces acting on it, including the spring and whatever other input is happening at the sprung mass and the wheel. It is not really specific to the damper internals - even a blown damper goes through the acceleration to peak velocity and deceleration back to zero, just because of the spring.
"With a more traditional damper arrangement its simply that the midvalve is how quickly you transfer force to the fluid (from the bump) and the basevalve is how quickly the fluid pushes back (energy dissipation)"
Not really sure what you mean there but on a technical level that description is not really accurate. By definition, energy is dissipated anywhere that work is done to convert kinetic energy into thermal energy, which occurs at any flow restriction including the midvalve, base valve or chassis flow restrictions.
"I'll add to that, nothing pushes on the annulus."
It absolutely does! Damper force is generated by the difference in hydrostatic pressures on either side of the piston, and the respective areas they act upon - the annulus area on the shaft side of the piston (the chamber that's pressurised during the rebound stroke), and the annulus + shaft area on the non-shaft side (ie the full area of the piston).
I think you are using ambiguous (and technically incorrect) terminology here with respect to "dynamic pressure" and "static pressure" though I think I understand what you mean ('static" as you are using it meaning the internal gas charge pressure when the shock is static, and "dynamic" meaning the internal pressures in each chamber when the shock is moving). For technical clarity on terminology, when calculating forces in a damper, you use hydrostatic pressure, not dynamic pressure. Dynamic pressure (0.5 x Density x q^2) is a calculation of the kinetic energy of the fluid using the Bernoulli fixed flow rate equations, it's a form of stored potential energy, but the hydrostatic pressure is what actually generates the force that acts on the piston.
Man, wish I had a shirt like that….
Soulja boy telum
@@dantindley5181 tuned for YOOOUUU
@VorsprungSuspension legend 😂