Black Ice F11 integrated amp: INTELLIGENT AUDIO
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- The Audiophiliac explores the Black Ice F11 Amp's sound, more info here, www.underwoodh...
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Steve, love this review and fully agree with you re the musical power of the EL34 tubes. I just switched very recently from a very decent hi-watt power amp, the Tannoy TA600, to a Line Magnetic LM-211, i.e. from 300 watts per channel to 15 watts per channel in triode mode. Firing into my Sonus Faber Cremona V1, there is an unbelievable richness in the music which I was looking for for so many years.
And the best thing is that the tube amp performs even far beyond my expectations in the bass: Listening to bass loaded disco music such as the legendary Chic remixes by DJ Dimitri from Paris makes me feel like in my early 20ies when this music was played in every club in Europe - deep, but well accentuated electric bass guitar lines, flanger-sounded e-piano attacks, sweet violins and female chorus lines, peppers by Nile Rodgers clean Stratocaster and an ultra sharp horn section - wow!
And to make things even more exciting, I add some slight portion of reverb for the mids and the highs and automatically get this early 80ies mega club sound, imitating the slight echo from those dance temples. And all from 15 watts from a tube amp. I anyone had told me only 3 month before, I would not have believed it!
The F11 Steve is reviewing here uses EL84s, not EL34s
@@DougMen1 Uups, you got me. Anyway, tubes are great.
@@keplermission4947 I fully agree. And, connecting my Cremona with a tube amp was some kind of experiment. They rate around 90db and have a bad impedance dip in the upper bass. But ultimately, I like the sound more than from my ultra-clean, high power SS amp.
Thank you for doing these videos. You along with a couple other TH-camrs are helping to bring back my love for music and the equipment I need for good quality sound. 👍
this channel just gets better and better. thanks for sharing!
Great video and great info. I have always liked EL84s and this amp is on the affordable side especially for a tube amp. In my experience solid state does have deeper bass but the detail and sweet midrange tubes can give steals the show sometimes. Thank you Steve.
One distinction that I haven’t found a way around and have learned is better left alone is between SET and Push-Pull/differential.
Art Dudley’s often self referenced love of ‘drive’ as a basic attribute of live music is a point worth considering some more. Acoustic instruments and air itself are single ended, they push or are pushed but don’t pull. When we love rock music at its origin is a pushing and pulling source and with a lot of efficient applied energy the character of the sound is transformed uniquely. Think of big beautiful power amps stacked stories high at an arena rock event, - whether it’s Pete Townsend or Gerry Garcia or Jan Hammer Elvis Presley or Elvis Costello or George Harrison or Grant Green it’s essentially a push-pull amplified source. When I listen to these players and others similar a simple push-pull amp brings a validity that I have not gotten any other way. My p-p amp is el84 based with UTC LS-63 output transformers they bring peaks of 19 watts to my QUAD ESL’s. It’s not really about power. The difference between this or an SET or any generic amp in its place is the trick of emulation the p-p amp is doing the same pulling as the original performance ‘instrument’ is. And that ‘drive’ comes to life.
But in truth that ‘drive’ is an affect of electrically amplified instruments and we all have been addicted at one time or another to it. Hell, - it powered AM radio for 4 decades. You’ll never find it in an acoustic instrument or an un-amplified human voice. Which surely have their own allure, think of late 50’s jazz or Nina Simone.
I have the original Jolida version of this amp, the JD102B, which was $600 back when I got it. It has no tape out, no SW out, no remote, and it has a single 12AX7 preamp, one triode for each channel, 2 12AT7s for driver and phase inverters (one for each channel), and 2 EL84s per channel in push-pull ultralinear configuration.
Thank you Steve for reviewing this amp.
Your collection of shirts is astronomical...I'm guessing the shirts collection take up more room than the audio equipment.
His wife makes the majority of them. Very talented.
Cool…smart looking amp, too. Now…can I actually listen to Tony Bennett…THAT is out of my "comfort zone" 😁
Steve's enthusiasm for the recording has me convinced that I should try……😎
Tony and Diane Krall is a great album.
@@scottyo64 I will attempt to remain openminded…😁
@@scottyo64 Tony and Gaga is better!
@@bobb.9917 Listening to a well recorded vocal performance through a tube amp can be a mystical experience... ;)
Steve was spot on in his description of the recording of Tony Bennett Live at Carnegie Hall in 1962. It is a pristine recording and Mr Bennett was at the absolute top of his game back in '62. It's hard to believe a recording of this quality was ever made back in 1962.
In future reviews when Steve comments about a specific recording I will be listening.
High efficiency speakers to my ears sound best with tube amps. When I hook them up to solid state amps they sound overwhelming harsh.
I notice similar but opposite. My '75 Infinity Mon 2A sound muddy and underpowered with my EL34 Boyuurange. The RF Klipsch are amazing with this tube amp in comparison.
Sorry Steve...off topic. Just picked-up The Ultimate Demonstration Disc, written and produced by Steve Guttenberg. I really enjoyed it. Nice work!
Glad you enjoyed it! That was a very long time ago.
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac It stands up over time. Track 15 with Joe Henderson on sax may be the most consequential track I've heard on my system. Discovered I'm about 18" too far from the speakers for optimal imaging. Adjusted for this and everything sounds better. Thanks and have a super day!!!
Interesting, I find everything you described about the sound of the F11 to be exactly how I would describe my now twenty plus year old Jolida 502A. Tube selection is different and the 502 has more power, but I have enjoyed it immensely for all these years for exactly the attributes you list for the F11. Could it be something in the ‘genetics’ of the two amps?
I have a couple of Jolida gadgets & they are a lot of fun. I sometimes wonder what the setup was like with the old stereo receivers in the '60's. Did they not bother with bias and didn't need to? (All hail Radio Shack!)
Hey Steve, if you could get a Willsenton R8 for review that would be great..
+1
Yes, because we need more reviews of click-and-pray chi fi there's not enough of them on TH-cam...
The black version is pretty sexy. Cool amp. Thanks!
I naively thought I had fully updated myself on current existing US audio brands over the past year of getting back into HiFi. Theres simply no way to familiarize with every one Ive determined, this home audio stuff is the ultimate in niche hobbies IMHO. Well.... that and HAM radio ; )
Fun Video , I have heard good things about the DAC, good to know they have other things too.
I put some NOS 12AU7s in my Rogue Sphinx v3 but I can't tell you which ones... but WOW, do they sound great...
I have been looking for an EL84 based Integrated Amp with reasonable power to use with my Pass INT25. This looks close!
It sounds like an awesome amp. I would love to have it. Tube amp just have a richness to them that makes them magical.
Talk all you want about your tube pre's there's nothing like a all tube push pull amp.
I'd Love an F11 and or a Firstwatt 8
Damn I have a primaluna evo 100 with heresy's and if I had known about this amp I might have tried it first and saved some money. Can't beat that headphone amp (which I almost never use) on the PL though.
Personally I'd rather have the PL. ;)
I think the Prima Luna is a superior product...at least that is my impression.
@@josephfranceski1041 The PL is incredibly well made. It sounds very good too. However I recently sold it and replaced it with a Line Magnetic which to me has a sweeter and more engaging midrange. The PL had fantastic control over the bass though, clearly a sign of very good output transformers. If I had speakers that need a lot of power like higher end B&W I wouldn't hesitate to use one of the more powerful PL amps.
EL 84 amp sounds more like a single-ended amp than a push-pull amp as EL84 tubes are better known as single-ended tubes!
Two different animals. Class A biasing and class AB biasing are way different regardless of the tubes. The complaint about class AB is crossover distortion which class A doesn't have - big difference.
Lot's of amps use EL84's in push pull - the Luxman SQ-n150 for example.
I'm very curious about how this amplifier would compare to the lower powered, cheaper Reisong Boyuu A10? I currently have the Reisong amplifier paired with Klipsch Forte 3 speakers and have been considering upgrading my speakers to the larger Klipsch Cornwall 4, and would then be curious about a good, better tube amp to replace the Reisong amplifier.
Hey Steve have you ever listened to the kit amplifier VTA st-70 dynaco by Bob Latino? Seems like it would be a good comparison not as fancy but for a kit amplifier very nice.
I understand that the Decware Zen Triode is in a different power category, but I am still interested in how this F11 compares to it. I ordered a Zen in March with upgraded capacitors, so I paid nearly as much as the F11, and will hopefully receive the amp by Christmas.
I am debating between the F11 and the Decware Zen Triode Integrated SE34I.5..... Right at the same price point..... Quandry.
Any further follow up on your Decware Zen Triode amp? Would love to hear your comments. Thanks, Joe
So what was the speaker you couldn’t name - and that you reviewed next? Thanks!!!
Hi Steve, Could you please post what the panels are behind your speakers?
Great review!
GIK difussors
As the valves are run hot, how long do you expect them to last?
Is this the kind of amp that would sound good paired with the Zu Audio Dirty Weekend speakers and a turntable?
Survey says yes. Also Decware is a very popular combo w/ DW, check Steve's earlier review - his component of the year for 2020.
Yes!
Hundred Percent
Hmm interesting, haven't yet heard this brand.
I was wondering how it disappeared!
the comparison between first watt vs f11 is really making me thinking about my primaluna evo400. And the also the headphones decent jack.
Are you happy with Primaluna? Auto bias is pretty much a necessity for me.
@@christinearmington I've owned PrimaLuna gear for some time (amp, preamp, CD player) and believe it is not only the best value in tube products but better sounding than gear 2-3X the price.
@@danielwilliams1921 Thanks for the reply. I’m thinking about Forte IVs and Primaluna 300 pre-amp.
I wasn’t aware of a CD player. Jay’s is on my list.
@@christinearmington That would sound great! I’ve had Maggi 12QRs for a decade. Love ‘em but seriously considering the Tannoy Kensingtons. I’m 71, so they will probably be my last pair.
Great looking amp - GREAT looking shirt!
Steve it would be fun if you make a transparency, clarity, liveliness vs resolution video. You've talked about it here and there. But I think it would make a fun video. 😁
#butbut, lame
Black Ice make a big brother called the F35 Fusion.
Hello Steve, will it work well with Magnepan LRS?
I heard the F85 running lrs+ ilat the Tampa audio show. It was impressive.
Nice
I wonder if the F11 sounds anything like a Dynaco SCA35?
Has Black Ice given a reason for dropping the name Jolida? I didn't realize they were Jolida, or should I say "one of the Jolidas," until I checked out your link to Underwood HiFi. I recall years ago that there was a battle over which company was the "real Jolida": i.e., the one entirely in China vs. one based in Maryland but with a factory in China (which I assume is this company). Was the name change the outcome of that dispute, or did this company just decide to rebrand?
How would this amp match with the Bouchard speakers
It's not ideal, not enough power.
Would it make sense to upgrade to the F22 for $200 more?
Any take on whether this might be a good fit with old KLH model 30 acoustic suspension speakers? Used them for years with about a 15 watt per channel solid state KLH model 35 compact stereo.
And it would probably sound great
Hey Steve, although I an a noobie at this hobby…5 months now and counting, my instincts say that a really world class tube pre-amp paired with a really world class, transparent class D amp would give you the best of both worlds - tube holographic soundstage and top end sparkle with all the bass punch and volume you could ever want. That’s why I opted to go with an Atma-Sphere Mp-3 tube pre amp and pair it with my class D NAD receiver - instead of going full tube stack all the way. I will find out in a week or so if I am right.
Good luck on your audio journey! It is a journey after all, you learn along the way
Stay away from Class D, it's a compromise design. Jmho.
@@rhwinner That was true until the genius Bruno Putzeys created the Eigentakt modules. Those are completely transparent. My NAD receiver is amazing. And the other consideration is power consumption and heat. I live in Florida where its hot all the time, and the last thing I need is a power hungry space heater of an amp heating up my living room.
@@BrentLeVasseur thanks, I'll look into it.
@@rhwinner Have a listen to my NAD T778 AV receiver here…let me know what you think. Listen with a good pair of headphones. th-cam.com/video/3bXlKKEITPc/w-d-xo.html
Gutt rules. Thnx
Could you review the Naim Uniti Atom? It really appeals given the integration of the amp and streamer, but critiqued for the noise floor (I'm nervous to get it for 98db Tektons). Any recommendations for something similar for a first system?
Seems like everyone had already reviewed reviewed the Uniti so I don’t have to. And streamers aren’t really my thing, sorry.
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac for your reviews, do you listen to CDs or SACDs?
Steve any chance you can get Rogue to send you the RH-5? Headphone amp/preamp.
I reviewed the headphone amp for CNET
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac Thank you, I will go look for that.
Isn't Black Ice the latest incarnation of the company that used to be Jolida..?
Yes
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac I have an old Jolida the JD502B, and it is a battleship. 60 watts and 60 lbs of pure tube muscle. _Great_ sounding amp with amazingly airy highs for a tube amp. I understand the F22, big brother to the F11 is also big heavy integrated...
F11 or Reisong A10 or 12?
F11
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac Thanx very much for the help, Steve
Hey Steve, something you might want to do is look at the new Apple lossless streaming vs. Tidal and Qobuz on a quality basis. The engineers at Abyss Headphones did a video where they compared Apple lossless to Tidal, and for them they all agreed that Apple beats Tidal hands down. If that’s true, then Tidal and MQA’s days are numbered.
Maybe a test should also be done using speakers. Headphone doesn't do ambiance and sound stage well even if it's abyss.
@@francisdelacruz6439 I would somewhat agree with that statement. Some headphones and amps do sound stage better than others. For example I have a pair of Hifiman Aryas paired to a Woo Audio WA7 tube amp and it has absolutely mind blowing sound stage. I also have a good speaker setup which I plan to test as well. You can hear a demo of my system here…th-cam.com/video/GzrBrTgyUII/w-d-xo.html
@@BrentLeVasseur Nice set up! With speakers though the Soundstage is in front of you and you can hear width, height and depth with layering at a scale beyond headphones such that we need a new word to describe it for headphones where it's just in your head or around it. Don't need it to enjoy music but some crave it having tubes to make it holographic even and creating large treated rooms to make it happen.
@@francisdelacruz6439 Yeah room treatment is my current focus. I’m trying to figure out how best to treat my room so that I don’t get too much ambient room reflections that can cause comb filtering and other issues.
Steve not a streamer kinda guy.
...🙄🤤muuuuuulm
The baby Luxman 150 gets 12 watts out of those tubes, I think 19 is kind of pushing it, maybe that's why they get so hot - the hotter the shorter the life. Luxman figures 10 years on the tubes, I see this amp figures 1k hours, a lot less. It's not an amp you want on all the time.
Ah, but since the owner sets the bias they can can run the the tubes lower and extend the life. Or just turn them up when listening seriously, and turn them back down we’re not.
@@SteveGuttenbergAudiophiliac I keep my amp biased about 10% under spec. Extends life without sacrificing quality.
Black Ice F11 1480$. Are you kidding me???? What about F10?
It's EL84. NOT EL dash 84! It's EL84!
Some wonder if you ever listen to what others are saying about your search (?) For Fidelity on Hi though...Couldnt get the jump from the raining ( is that what you guys call it up tthere?) in New York to your Black Ice power amplifier...Soon you and Richie boy , with his bad , phony punk music ,will be down in Sonny Florida too....Shema but for real Steve...it'll do US good.
Huh?
So not that good then, better off with a Chinese amp
wonder where this thing is made? How's it compare with the Reisong Boyuurange A10?
You talk about sound but you never play anything for us to listen to! Come on Steve play a sample so we can hear something my friend. There are some non copyright selections available if that's your concern.
Im always 'baffled' by audiophiles using vocalists as way to critique gear. I prefer a full band along with strong vocals. I never expect the band or vocalist is 'in the room' while listening to my system.
Did you not hear that Tony had a "big band, string section" accompanyment? Plenty to excite all ranges.
I'm sure its good but it looks like it was made in someone's back yard.