Why I gave up on War and Peace - thoughts on classics, education and reading to impress
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
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Well, challenging shouldn’t equal misery. At least I can’t be blamed for your reading Jane Austen! I loved War and Peace so much I read it twice, but that’s me. I’m admittedly peculiar. You are right, you shouldn’t read books because you feel you should to be “well read” or something. You should have a genuine interest in the book, whatever it is.
I do need to remember who to blame for Jane.
And I should thank you as well, because although the project ended in disaster, I did REALLY enjoy Moby Dick and Frankenstein, which I wouldn't have read otherwise
@@CriminOllyBlog, my mother loved and loves Russian literature. As a child, I loved science fiction, but every once in a while I'd pick up a book my mom was reading and read one chapter (either the chapter she had just finished or the chapter she was presently reading). Sometimes they captured my imagination as interesting, but I never then read the whole book. One I remember well was a man thinking something was missing from what he remembered and then finally concluding it was that the steeples of churches were missing throughout Russia (In the First Circle) and I only finally read that book in 2022 and really liked it.
What got me into Russian literature was as an older teenager I read a whole book called "A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and thus I decided to read "War and Peace." My problem with it was that there were a lot of characters and each time I would stumble across a character again I would want to read what they had been doing last in the book. This would require me going over the last 50 to 100 pages to find them and remember what they were up to. How this problem manifested during the read was that on the second day I just stayed up all night reading until the third day at noon. I was upset that the two characters I loved in "War and Peace" died, but the story was excellent and ended well.
I read and loved "War and Peace" because it was a great story. Perhaps I love Russian literature due to some aspect of my family or my exposure.
I just have to add that "The Brothers Karamazov" by Fyodor Dostoevsky is absolutely worthless.
TOP FIFTEEN BOOKS
1) "Verbal Behavior" by Dr. B. F. Skinner
2) "Resurrection" by Leo Tolstoy
3) "The Idiot" by Fyodor Dostoevsky
4) "Fathers and Sons" by Ivan Turgenev
5) Myth Adventures - series by Robert Asprin
6) The Chronicles of Narnia - series by C. S. Lewis
7) "Vilette" by Charlotte Brontë
8) "War and Peace" by Leo Tolstoy
9) "A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
10) "Smoke" by Ivan Turgenev
11) "Roots" by Alex Haley
12) The Silmarillion - The Hobbit, or there and back again - The Lord of the Rings - Middle Earth stories by J. R. R. Tolkien
13) Foundation Series - Isaac Asimov
14) "Eugene Onegin" by Alexander Pushkin
15) "Crime and Punishment" by Fyodor Dostoevsky
FAVORITE AUTHORS
1) Ivan Turgenev
2) Leo Tolstoy
3) Fyodor Dostoevsky
4) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
5) C. S. Lewis
6) Charlotte Brontë
7) J. R. R. Tolkien
8) Isaac Asimov
9) Jane Austen
10) Mark Twain
11) George Eliot
12) Anthony Trollope
31) "In the First Circle" by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
60) “Frankenstein” by Mary Shelley
"Great Expectations" by Charles Dickens sucks to me. I'm not into "Moby Dick" but it is better than "Great Expectations" or "The Brothers Karamazov" or "Iliad."
53) "Hard Times" by Charles Dickens
75) "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens
I think in listening to others, you ought to listen to the reviews of people who like the kinds of books as you do, to get a feel if you would like it. You should read more books by the authors you like and if an author you like approves of or brings up a book then check it out.
Twice?
Jane Austen is indeed good, but I've got a new female favorite author. You tell me if maybe I'm wrong. Who do I really love better?
7) "Vilette" by Charlotte Brontë
18) "Pride and Prejudice" by Jane Austen
30) "Emma" by Jane Austen
52) “Sense and Sensibility” by Jane Austen
57) "Jane Eyre" by Charlotte Brontë
63) “Persuasion” by Jane Austen
124) "The Professor” by Charlotte Brontë
Villette is one of my favorite books of all time, but very few people seem to have read it. So frustrating that Charlotte Brontë had only written a dozen pages of a new novel when she died.
Great video Ollie. I have, on several occasions, attempted to work through one of those "books to read before you die" lists. Nearly all of them loaded with literary classics. Each time I failed miserably for the very same reasons you spoke of. I just couldn't get into them and Id end up trying to force my way through a book I wasn't enjoying. I finally had to throw in the towel and admit many of those classics just aren't for me. Too many out there that I will enjoy to waste I those I don't. Cheers!
Brilliant video. I’ve struggled with this myself, not massively enjoying a lot of the classics I’ve tried with the odd exception. It’s import to be honest with yourself and acknowledge whether or not you enjoyed the experience, not just if it was written with great prose. So often great prose is confused with great storytelling. They’re not the same thing.
I liked the idea of reading Tolstoy & Dostoyevsky but much like Dickens I just can't get past the dark drudgery of it and give up. I did finish Anna Karenina with an Audiobook just to get through it, but it was not enjoyable. It's very nice to know I'm not alone in this! I think you're right and I just need to accept that some classic novel's are just not for me. Thank you for addressing this subject!!
I actually loved Great Expectations, but I watched the movie after I read the book just to fill in a few of the blanks that I did not fully grasp. However, I have been putting off War and Peace just for the sheer size of the novel. Even if I enjoy a story, a book of that length is so difficult for me to maintain interest in. I want to read it, but I will have to probably break the book up into sections over a period of many months and then I question whether or not I will be doing justice to the story. Most of what I read, is done for the fun of it. This includes many classics, which I do usually like. However, my favorite genre is horror and a good 90% of my reading time focuses on these reads.
Great rant. I also gave up on War and Peace after having 2 goes at it. I had really loved Anna Karenina the second time I tried it, but couldn’t engage with W&P. It’s a fine balance between going out of your comfort zone and challenging yourself a bit, and trudging through something just to say you did it.
I agree about being froced to read books at school being somewhat detrimental to a love of reading for some of us. I mind in my early school years loving reading but high school very nearly destroyed that. I went right off reading because over those years I associated it with boredom and obligation. I was in my mid 20s before I got back into books and I did that by ignoring what culture at large said I should read and went back to what I enjoyed as a child, genre fiction and I read dozens of books a year and more importantly reading has returned to being a joy.
I still think that they gave us the Scarlet Letter in seventh grade to turn us away from reading books. I just could not deal with the drudgery. I once asked our English teacher why we couldn't read Sherlock Holmes and she said it was not literature. I read only books that carry me through.
I actually enjoyed The Scarlet Letter in school but I do agree with you that Sherlock Holmes would have been more interesting. Your teacher had a strange idea on what literature is.
@@RobynHoodeofSherwood i sure don't mean to disparage the Scarlet Letter. it was just such a slog in 7th grade. i asked the teacher about Holmes in high school, admittedly while i was devouring the complete works at _home_.
funny thing is i went on to Poe and C.S Lewis and a lifelong love of procedurals from Baker Street. in her defence we did do Into the Maelstrom.
I knew War and Peace wasn't for me by the end of the first page, so I went for another book. But I loved the Karamazov Brothers (and Crime and Punishment). There are books that I didn't enjoy because I read them at the wrong time (I enjoyed The Catcher in the Rye so much when I read at 23 than at 17), or the wrong way (first time I've read LoTR I read really fast, the second time I read 1 chapter after my meals and I liked more). And sometimes I want to abandon a book and go to the next, but I am curious about something in the plot... But I am not afraid to abandon books that are not clicking with me, whatever is the reason (sorry, Starless Sea and The Master and Margarita, one day I will finish you).
I don't think it's really difficult books, so much as ones that have been deemed Worthy. Some of them are just difficult. Some of them are actually interesting/fun reads, if you aren't forced to dissect them to death for the upcoming test.
Just bought a copy of War and Peace last month. I did, partly, select the Penguin clothbound edition because it would look pretty on my shelf, even if I don't get on with it, when I eventually get around to it. (I think my copy of The Brothers Karamozov has been there since 2008.)
I think 'difficulty' is just another way of describing personal taste. I also think that a play that is about the dangers of ambition and that one should be careful what you wish for is always relevant. Which is Macbeth. The age of a text shouldn't automatically disqualify it from study. But I agree that it is fine not to enjoy these things. I think it is fine to admit you don't like something or don't get it. But fundamentally this all comes down to personal taste. I like digging in to the culture and history around classics, but I'd never expect everyone to feel the same way. I mean I read Proust, which I thought I'd hate. But I quite enjoyed it. I don't think it is a favourite but I read around it too, which I loved. So, reading Lost Time: Lectures On Proust In A Soviet Prison Camp by Józef Czapski helped my understanding of the book itself. But to cut a long post short read what the hell you like.
Completely agree on the personal taste and read what the hell you like comments. And yeah, Macbeth was a bad example for me to use, as it is pretty great really.
@@CriminOllyBlog I forgot to say how much I enjoyed the video btw. I do think people should be OK to say, 'I didn't enjoy this' or DNF them. I hate DNFing books. I almost never do it. But I don't think my masochism should be the rule. 🤣
@@Lokster71 Thank you!
I am a few chapters in on Moby Dick. The 19th century English and writing style makes it very different from today's books, as is the case with many classics. I have no intention of stopping. War and Peace is next to my bed and awaiting my time. I am going to push through regardless of difficulty.... Kar-ah-mah-zoff.... I finished Great Expectations just last week. I think it was very good, but it took some effort. Dickens and Shakespeare are not only essential parts of British culture but of Western culture. I think you run the risk by DNF'ing classic books that you don't give yourself the opportunity to "get" it by the end. Great Expectations seemed to ramble early on, but the last few chapters made the meaning of the book clear.
There are just some books we need to read to have a broad education; there are literary allusions in other books or movies or culture that we cannot "get" without the proper background. It seems difficult or unfair to me to criticize a book you did not complete. I have House of Leaves sitting next to my bed as well. I look forward to tackling it soon. I think it is good for us to push through difficult reads rather than simply quitting on them. I hope to get to Joyce's Ulysses sometime soon. That looks like a beast, but I just feel I need to do it.
Reading only a 100 pages or so of War & Peace or Brothers Karamazov isn’t even scratching the surface of these books. At 500 pages decide if you want to quit. The first parts of these books is a chore but when they take off they really take off. It’s sad that you quit so soon before even getting started. I’ve only read a few classics and almost all of them take a few 100 pages to get going, especially the long epics. I’d revisit them once you learn some patience and give them your full attention because they are well worth it. BTW , just finished War and Peace minutes ago and it is phenomenal.
I was very disappointed when I couldn't finish Frankenstein. Knowing about it's cultural impact (in general and especially in the horror genre) and it's ongoing popularity made it feel like a failure on my side and I wasn't even sure what the actual problem was (most likely the dated language), as I really enjoyed reading Dracula and The Phantom of the Opera wasn't that challenging either.
In the end, I skipped the classical classics and had a good time with more modern classics like Gone with the Wind & To kill a Mockingbird.
I gave up on it too about 200 pages in, so disappointed in myself but life is way too short 👍🏻
I don’t think you should be disappointed in yourself. There are so many other books 😊
Classics certainly are an acquired taste. I personally love them, but I enjoy annotating, copying out and comparing quotes, exploring philosophical ideas - I enjoy it, but I wouldn't say I read FOR enjoyment.
I agree with most of your points, Olly, but you trashed three of my all time favorite books: War and Peace, The Iliad, and Great Expectations ! Surprisingly, you did like Moby Dick. Most people who don't like Moby Dick don't like it because of the language. That's not surprising because no one except Melville ever wrote like that. But as far as my motives for reading War and Peace were concerned, they were mixed. I had just graduated from High School and was starting College in the Fall. I wanted to read some great books before entering, college. I had no trouble with War and Peace and finished it, as I recall, in 6 days. I was absolutely entranced. I followed it with Tomas Wolfe's Look Homeward Angel. Then after college got under way, I soon read Karamazov and Crime and Punishment. In my sophomore year I took Greek and Roman Drama, then Greek and Roman literature in Modern translation with the young classicist Emily Dickinson Townsend Vermeule. We read the Iliad, the Odyssey, and The Aeneid , the complete plays of Aeschylus, Sophocles and most of Euripides and Aristophanes. And more, Hesiod, Sappho. It was a great year. So, I was reading to acquaint myself with great literature, for bragging rights, and because some of these works were required. And this was actually easy reading for me, because I was majoring in Political Theory and Philosophy. Kant and Hegel are much harder to read and understand than most novelists. I don't recall much that I read in my Junior year, but in my senior year I had a course in Hawthorne and Melville, and in my last semester a seminar in George Bernard Shaw. And somewhere between my 16th year and my 21'st I had managed to read 1000 plays including the complete (actually the canonical) works of Shakespeare, Marlowe, Jonson and many others. I kept count.
But once I graduated I only read for pleasure, There was one exception: James Joyce's Ulysses. I felt I should read it. I don't know when I first started but I stopped at page 299 in the Modern Library Giant edition. A couple years later I tried it again. Again on page 299, I came to a halt.
Finally, I went to Thailand as an Army officer when I was 27 years old, and I took a copy of Ulysses with me. I got to page 299 and Strike Three. No more, never again. And I actually liked Joyce's earlier work. My patience is not endless. Probably because of my interest in theatre I find I am not interested in novels that don't contain much dialogue. That put me off on writers like Thomas Mann and even Proust. I don't care how great they are, I'm simply not interested. I believe in doing whatever floats your boat, but Mann and Proust could sink the Titanic. (I still have a higher opinion of their work than I do of Ulysess.) It's a matter of style.
I think they say you can start Ulysses at any point, so maybe next time you try it you should start on page 300.
Glad these books have given you so much pleasure!
@@CriminOllyBlog There will be no next time.
The crucial question with a difficult book is: is the book difficult because the author failed to do their job or are we not quite ready to read it?
I read War and Peace during the first 19 days of June 2004, and I felt ashamed of myself because it took so long to read, by my standards. I assumed I could finish it in two weeks minimum. Barring the pointless, meandering epilogue that has nothing to do with anything, I absolutely loved it. All the characters came so alive, even the ones I hated, like that annoying religious fanatic Princess Mariya, her nasty father, and the toffee-nosed Hélène.
All that said, Lev Nikolayevich Tolstoy has never been a particular favourite of the great Russian writers for me. He does tend to meander off into the weeds with pointless chapters that have nothing to do with advancing the main story or character development, and the way he writes women and frequently features creepy age-gap relationships bugs me. For the lattermost, it's obvious he drew from his own life of marrying a teenage girl when he was in his thirties, which was NOT common in that era, contrary to what some people falsely believe.
BTW, Karamazov is pronounced Kah-rah-MAH-zaff.
Thank you!
I dont know if you've read it. But i highly recommend Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky. Its a really easy read compared to his other works. It feels like reading a modern novel about a murder told from the point of view of the murderer. I think its a real page turner and I stayed up all night reading it because I couldn't put it down.
Life’s too short Olly…read what you love, not what is expected of you.
Try Ulysses!
The _War and Peace_ rule (or covenant)... YOU DON'T START _WAR AND PEACE_ (or any door-stopper) WITHOUT UNBENDING INTENT !!! It's not a casual commitment. W&P the Moby Dick of novels. (It's strange that _Moby Dick_ isn't the Moby Dick of novels, but that's how it is.) Only one reason to read W&P is for the history of Napoleon and Russia, 1812. There are so many others.
Your taste reminds me of my brother. He's really not interested in the classics. His tastes run towards Hammett, Chandler, Hemingway and recent history.
If you think War and Peace is a slog, you should try reading The Wheel of Time. The Waste of Time, more like it.
I quite liked the books we read in school. I loved Shakespeare and, even more, Tennessee Williams, and I think they both benefit from guided reading, which is the advantage of reading for school.
I don’t think that reading challenging books occasionally is a bad thing, but reading should never be punishment. If you aren’t having to read for a class you should read what you enjoy. I try to broaden my horizons and not just read the genres I enjoy most (horror and mystery)but I am not going to struggle through something that is not for me.
I'm with you all the way.
Difficulty doesn't automatically confer greatness, but for some texts the greater the difficulty the greater the reward.
That is a little gem of wisdom!
I think you’re exactly right. Our society tends to see age and difficulty as venerable in books. We should all read what we find interesting or we’re not going to get either pleasure or knowledge from them.
I don't think it's a bad idea to read classics in high school. That's where I first read Edgar Allen Poe and my love of horror was born. I do agree that maybe schools should sprinkle in some more modern authors and even some books that are not so highly regarded, just for fun. Try to give kids a wider variety of genres. Why not read someone like Douglas Adams, for example, and Robert E. Howard?
Terry pretchet? I mean thats never a bad idea, (if you dont overanalize it till it not fun, let it for gods sake be thoughtful, but fun)
I loved War &Peace. I needed a nice thick book to hollow out and hide stuff in.
Good stuff as always Olly. Having existed on a purely pulp reading diet through the 1970s, I went on a crash course of trying to read the classics in the early 80s. I tried and failed with so many. However oddly, three short books really hit the mark with me. 'Heart of Darkness', 'The Prince' and 'Waiting for Godot'. The brevity of the works did have something to do with it. Reading is a joy and should not be a vehicle for any type of intellectual bragging rights.
I admit I haven't read Tolstoy's War & Peace or Anna Karenina. But his shorter fiction is among my favorites and I have read and re-read several stories and novellas: The Death of Ivan Ilych, Master and Man, and Father Sergius are really excellent and perhaps a place to start.
I fully agree. Studying certain classics in high school legit put me off reading for the majority of my young adult life, as I'm sure it has to many other people... it feels kinda criminal really. Only when I hit my mid 20's did I realise I in fact COULD enjoy reading when it was something I WANTED TO READ. That realisation was amazing, but also a little sad, as I'd wasted so much reading time prior to that not being interested in books.
I support you and your DNF, though strangely this video made me want to read War and Peace all the more. And of course there's a better alternate to Macbeth; it's called Hamlet. :)
Ha! Hope you enjoy it if you do read it!
I'm a bit more concerned when I hear people who have not enjoyed a challenging book blaming it on "bad writing." What I want to make sure we don't give up is that reading hard is like running hard: we need to exercise those muscles if we want to move effectively under difficult conditions.
As God is my witness, I always thought Moby Dick was an STD!
Classics I can get along with. War and Peace was great, IMHO. Jane Austen was tedious. I agree that schools should probably reconsider what they teach in literature classes. The classics probably don’t cut the mustard for many teenagers. Likewise books written for today’s youths don’t cut the mustard with me. I find YA books insufferably bad.
Yeah I didn't have you down as a big YA fan...
I loved war and peace but I dnf’d Vanity Fair and other classics- it’s cool to read what works for us and let the rest go. Thanks for the discussion
Completely agree!
I used to read to impress/feel smarter but for me it just made reading much, MUCH harder. I tried to do it off and on for years but just wasn’t getting anywhere because it didn’t feel pleasurable enough. Some critically revered and classic writers I love, like McCarthy. But I think that it defeats any possible point to force yourself to read classics if you’re getting nothing from certain books.
Well said! I totally agree and appreciate your making people feel okay about just reading what speaks to them.
Totally agree with what you say about reading at school. I'm a reader nowadays in spite of my reading experience at school not because of it.
I think the main problem with the term classic is that we forget that this is an inherited opinion. Classics have been defined by someone else and we are all entitled to disagree with that definition. I agree with your point about literature in schools . My children were lucky in primary school ,in that they had a head teacher who treated reading as the most important aspect of education . He even took a load of my old comics for kids to read in the library. Secondary school however has hit them with a very limited "classics" heavy reading list , which is a real backward step. Reading should not be treated like healthy eating with classics the fruit and veg.
Classics make me nervous when going in. Some I like and some I can't get through. I couldn't get through War and Peace or any Shakespeare in high school. However, many of my classmates eagerly did. So to each their own, I guess. I enjoyed A Separate Peace, The Great Gatsby and To Kill a Mockingbird. Thank God I have a choice now to read or not to read. 😅 I do think Classics are being redefined and updated with each generation. What my kids are reading in school is somewhat different and to them are considered "new" classics.
I'm struggling with Strangers on a Train. Finally figured out why. Too much description. Get to the point, woman! ;-)
As a librarian I completely agree on your comments about education. The education system is creating literate people, but not readers. That's where librarians come in, who doesnt have a curriculum but can allow ita users to explore their own interests on their own terms:) Love the channel, greetings from Sweden
Comment added for the algorithm
And remember to like other people's comments that helps with the algorithm as well
interaction is good
Thanks, Andrew!
Penguin launched a new series of novella-sized Little Clothbound Classics last August. It looks like the plan is to publish a set of 12 books each season for a year and pick as many writers from foreign countries as they can. What you notice is that many of the books they selected appeal to readers of supernatural or fantastic tales. Selections of short stories by Shirley Jackson, Edgar Allan Poe, E.T.A. Hoffmann, and Lafcadio Hearn. Alexander Pushkin's stories hint at supernatural elements, there's Anna Kavan's ICE, Stefan Zweig's CHESS STORY, a selection of Oscar Wilde's fairy tales, many more.
I don't think I'd feel qualified to talk about books by Dostoevsky or Tolstoy without having read some secondary literature first, something that gives me an understanding of the historical and cultural background, and in which way these writers were rebelling or trying out something different than the previous generation of writers.
To others, I say that it’s ok to fail and dealing with not great reading experiences. Of course, I’m very hard on myself lol
War And Peace, The Iliad, The Bible, and other large tomes are not read the way most books are read. These should be read over long spans of time - in sections. This way of reading does not work for some readers. 🐔
I started reading Brothers Karamazov in September. I was enjoying it, but I'm also doing teacher training this year, so I didn't have the time or energy to put into reading it regularly enough to get the most out of it. So I've stopped reading it until I've got more time on my hands to read it properly (which, as I'm going into teaching English, will probably be when I retire).
I think our conception of "classics" as a category is a bit twisted. The books we consider classics are generally just a collection of canonised works and includes a massive variety in terms styles and themes. I think it's clear that reading Melville and reading Tolstoy are two quite different excercises which will appeal to different readers, and it doesen't help much to dismiss them or choose to engage with them just based on the classics-category.
Brilliant brilliant views olly. Cant agree with you more. One should enjoy reading rather than pretending to enjoy a book.
Educator with PhD in English Lit here, currently teaching English at the highest level of "High School" in Switzerland. While I personally adore some classics (incl. Great Expectations and Pride & Prejudice 😅) or I wouldn't have survived my studies 😄 - *every* time I see the government-prescribed list of unabridged English classics my students have to pick 3 from for their final oral exams I want to cry. My students are realistically on a B1-B2 level of English, and we're demanding they work through hundreds and hundreds of pages of dense, century-old language and social commentary? There's Shakespeare on that bloody list!
I can literally watch my students' disdain for reading grow in front of my eyes that final year and I want to go slash my way through the entire committee who drew up that list.
There's no book, no matter how "simple", "pulp" or whatever that I couldn't make an exam out of that tests analytical and critical thinking skills. Let people read what they want! Then they might even care about what we're discussing!
/steps off soapbox
In Sweden there aren't just Swedish authors we read about. We read different cultures like UK, and other countries as well. I remember one book specifically that fits in to what you are saying for me. Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy. We were 4 ppl in the group that were doing the review of it. I dnf'd it at 200 pages, 2 ppl didn't even try and 1 person actually read the book so we could finish our review xD that book is aweful! Just a lot of Russian names. That is what I remember. Pride and Prejudice I loved so I'm not one of those readers that despise all classics. My favorite is The Picture of Dorian Gray.
Thanks Frida, really interesting to get a different perspective. I suspect there is a classic out there for every reader, but many of us will have to kiss a lot of frogs to find it
Pasaliny is pretty fun and not too long, and good thoughtful dark humor, i think the one with god might be the best, h is pretty popular too.
To each his own. I personally love War and Peace and Anna Karenina, but if you don't feel a connection with the book there is no point in finishing it. Reading time is limited enough without squandering your efforts on books you don't like.
It is difficult to say that you didn’t get a book. I have struggled with that usually opting for saying nothing rather than admitting it.
My opinion about assigning classics in school is always changing. I see some value in cultural heritage, but agree that forced reading of classics is self defeating and probably does put kids off reading. I don’t understand assigning Shakespeare when there are so many excellent movie adaptations that could be assigned/shown and discussed. He wrote plays for God sakes! They were meant to be seen not read.
Great video
Thanks Brian - when I was at school we learned Shakespeare by acting it, which on the one hand make a lot of sense, but on the other means you end up watching the worst possible version of the play
@@CriminOllyBlog 😂😂😂😂
Here's my penithworth: I came to War & Peace via Anna Karenina. And I read A.K. years ago just as if it was a regular book. I literally went from Lord of the Rings, to Anna Karenina (a friend of a friend called Flora handed me, i think her copy, on a beach, and said something like hey you could read this, very nice of her!); I had no knowledge, no preconceptions of anything to do with it, and I thought it was just a fantastic, engrossing story with loads of atmosphere! And that is how I approached W&P. As a story, just a story, nothing deep or serious "to get" (other than war?), necessarily. The first 100-150 pages is a bit of an intro to a number of central characters, so that is potentially ruffling, but traversable, before the summits. I am perhaps biased after reading A.K. however. I really like the way Tolstoy writes, and dislike Virginia Wolf, Hemingway, and V S Naipaul, which I read because they were famous, and had won the Nobel Prize for Literature - see Pearl S Buck 'The Good Earth' (the other side of the NPforL), for an amazing story and wondrous storytelling; that is also about something very important and serious, to do with women not the least!
Nooooo! But to be fair, I am really delighted to see experienced readers such as yourself openly admit when something is not your jam. That's healthy... btw I haven't watched your video, I'll do so eating dinner. Taking a break from Canva and uploading an astrotarot spread 🙄
Hope you enjoyed the video - admitting not liking things is pretty much exactly what it was about!
@@CriminOllyBlog Yeah, it was good... I really understood that a part of it comes from not having to live up to some societal ideals or what the school curricula deems as important. Growing up, I loved my classic tombs but I felt a bit odd because everyone around me didn't like them. So I kept it a secret. I was reading classics from the age of 8 but it is just who I am. But I don't think it makes me a better or worse reader. Plus, I love a short fiction or something trashy too. I have read the whole Virginia Andrews Flowers in the Attic series! I don't believe in forcing myself to read stuff I don't like. Life is too short! Bravo for speaking up!
Me reading Dracula….”so what’s the point here? I don’t get it” 😂 Great chat Olly.
😂😂
Interesting that you mention reading a book a bit at a time. That's how I'm reading James Joyce's Ulysses, and it's working for me. I'm really liking the book - the characters are beautifully written, and it's very funny in places - but I knew at the start it would take me a couple of months to read it, and I decided it needn't be a couple of months all at once. So I left Mr Bloom just having had his lunch while I read something lighter. Fingers crossed, I'll be able to pick it up again when I go back to it. (War and Peace, I've never had the slightest inclination to even glance at!)
A long time ago (in my reading life), I divided books into two categories: Trophies & Treasures. Trophies, of course, are those that I've conquered, even if I didn't particularly enjoy them whereas Treasures are those I loved. As I've grown older, I try to maximize the treasures and minimize the trophies and, happily, I think I've been able to do that.
I like that distinction!
I'm in the middle of reading War and Peace, 300 pages in, found it really a bit boring. The characters don't really come to life and the plot is a bit boring too.
That is why I found you struggle with Sherlock Holmes collection puzzling. The collection is amazing, full of actions and intrigues.
come on, man, you have to finish the Sherlock Holmes collection, they are fantastic.
I've found the Holmes stories disappointing more than anything. I think they're good, they're just not amazing. I completely get their importance to the mystery genre, but that doesn't necessarily mean I love reading them
Hi. I love all the books you didn't finish. I'm just about finishing The Talented Mr Ripley which I think is fabulous. It faintly reminds me of Crime and Punishment which I think you would have preferred
Ripley is such a great book!
100% agree about school book choices.
We had to read Great Gatsby and Catcher In The Rye in the west of Scotland during the Thatcher years.
The goings on of assorted rich Americans meant nothing to us.
Loved MacBeth though, Scottish folk stabbing each other, great stuff.
But it took me a long time to realise I didn't have to finish ever book I started. Now I usually give a book about 1/4 of it's page count, if I'm not digging it by then it is closed and another book started instead.
Yeah, Catcher in the Rye always felt very distant to me too.
I recently DNF'd Villette by Charlotte Bronte. It is the first Bronte book of any kind that I did not enjoy. I know it is the last book she published in her short lifetime but to me it seemed very much like it was written by a 14year old. The writing reminded me of an exercise we did in 7th grade of describing to an alien how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with the understanding said alien had never been inside an earthling kitchen before. Also the protagonist was completely lacking in motivation of any kind and seemed to be taking each next step completely on whim. It was not at all a strong female lead I would expect from a groundbreaking author. Anyway, disappointing, but I shall continue to struggle through Les Misérables probably because I enjoy complaining about Hugo's lack of editor.
I'll admit that I hadn't even heard of that Bronte book, let alone tried it
Well this is tremendous news. The Snoozics just don't matter 🤣 Oh god Macbeth, they're still torturing students with that ? All that did was turn me off Shakespeare for LIFE ! Macbeth has been done to death in film and tv too. When a director has run out of ideas, look out for their Shakespeare film.
LOL at that last comment
Oh, Cormac McCarthy! I've only read the "The Road" and all I kept thinking was this. If the characters had been a mother and daughter rather than a father and son, it would have been a warmer, chattier book. Yep! I'm shallow.
Ha! I’d read that
I've actually seen a few videos about the topic of teaching classics in school recently. I am a former English Literature teacher, and this is definitely a hot topic in our field. I, personally, advocate for balance.
I think it is incredibly important for kids to be reading books that capture the world today and are interesting and engaging to them.
In my classroom, I dedicated at least 20 minutes a day to letting the kids read whatever it is they wanted to read and helped kids find books where they could see themselves and their interests in the pages, as well as encouraged them to read books about people who are not like them to help build empathy.
I also did whole class studies on newer novels so that we could discuss relevant topics in depth with one another. But I also included classics in our study - though I often did excerpts, poems, or short stories because of how cumbersome they can be.
My main justification for teaching classics does delve into the topic of our culture, but it's not just that these stories are staples of our western culture, but that these stories and particularly the language of these stories is often used by the elite to keep marginalized communities out and to take advantage of these communities. I wanted my students to be able to have the knowledge, language, and critical awareness of how literature and language are and have been used so that they may hold their own in a society that glorifies wealth, privledge, and exclusivity.
I do not feel teaching classics because they are "important" works or generally accepted as "good" works is enough of a reason to use them in school nor does teaching JUST classics benefit anyone or develop a love of reading, but if used appropriately and in conjunction with other relevant and engaging works, I do feel they are foundational in helping people expand their understanding of language and our history.
The part of W&P and TBK that you read was still establishing characters. But like YA fiction is ultra popular without schools pushing it so I feel that at least exposing teens to Shakespeare is important. It may be the only time they read him.
I think the problem is YA is very popular but with a relatively small group of kids. Boys are much less likely to read for fun
I do agree with you in regards to the obligation to read painful books in school, and think that there is no shame in not grasping some particularly challenging literature. The only thing I got out of reading those awful Shakespeare plays in school, and some other painful classics (Scarlet Letter, Great Gatsby, Great Expectations) is an expanded vocabulary and a love for Cliffs Notes.
I don’t think the length of a book should put you off. I remember starting The Lord of the Rings trilogy and thinking it was very long. After I’d finished it I wished it was twice as long.
I think that reading books in English Lit lessons at school it is necessary to read classic novels and plays. It should not put you off reading , it is a necessary process for children to at least try to understand that literature is not a stand alone thing, modern novels owe a debt to older books and the country’s literary history. It all stems from medieval story tellers prior to written stories because most people couldn’t read. There is nothing new in literature everything stems from the past there are a limited number of literary themes which may not seem obvious when comparing romance to horror to sci-fi to Shakespeare to Dickens but it is still there.
And I believe this is important to understand. You might disagree, that’s ok, but you may be missing such a lot if you don’t understand this.
I totally get the importance of Dickens and Shakespeare, but I do question what the majority of kids get out studying them. If the purpose of studying literature is to make kids understand the place of those authors in the canon then maybe it works. But I think making kids fall in love with reading is a better aim.
I really want to get into Russian classics but I think the biggest hang up for me are the names because I've never met anyone with a name like Andrei Nikolayevich Bolkonsky or Ilya Andreyevich Rostov. It really feels like I'm missing out.
I gave up War and Peace almost 300 pages in and gave up House of Leaves halfway through. Both were ok I just couldn’t really get into them. And I still feel guilty for walking away years later haha! Thanks for the video!
Good for you to try, though. Those both seem treacherous in their own ways. I'll try Brothers Karamazov soon to see if I can handle 'difficult' reading.
Have you tried Brothers yet? It was difficult but I enjoyed it. I read it years ago though so I don’t know if I’d say the same thing now.
I loved War and Peace but I found Moby Dick more difficult personally.
I can see how that might be the case, W&P is certainly easier reading (aside from the length)
Something to me why are it so Wrong to let Sandman ,Watchmen and so on be Classic book all should Read why must all books be text When so much books done today actually are so great Like V for Vendetta so great literature but are not Fine enough to be call literature ❓❓❓
Great point, those really are classics
In the early 80's, in France, we were given to read planet of the apes at school and it was interesting. I was about 13. There were also books from African French speaking countries or the Caribbean which I liked too.. The classics came later, in later secondary school. I read Jane Eyre at 14 and loved it. Now, I prefer classic SF or sometimes horror. I would like reading Moby Dick, too. Have a great reading week, Olly.
The only Dostoevsky book you’d be most likely enjoy is “Crime and Punishment”.
Yeah some other people have suggested that one
I remember trying to read Pride and Prejudice and not being able to finish it, later I did wonder if it was me. I also had trouble read Frankenstein but that was because it really got depressing, and Twenty thousand leagues under the sea bored me. That said I thought Dracula was a blast when I read and could see why it was the vampire book that everyone loved and while I wasn't always sure what the hell was going on I did finish Fanny Hill.
I must have been a complete nerd in school because I enjoyed most of the books we had to read (including Great Expectations). I often read other books by the same authors on my own. I read War & Peace as a teenager - I only remember liking the peace parts and skimming the war parts. The biggest difficulty was the names - many characters had similar names to each other and most of them had several nicknames. I can’t read many long books anymore - too many books I want to read, no patience and my reading life is getting shorter all the time.
Olly, I totally agree.....and I bet you could hear me say "Ugh" when you held up HOL. HA HA. MJ
Ha ha I totally did
@@CriminOllyBlog 😜😂
I think reading Classic books is an entirely different style of reading than, reading contemporary books for pleasure. I think you have to use sort of an academic approach. Spoil yourself, watch the movies first, gain context for the period, understand the themes, checkout articles, even other books to gain context, talk and discuss with others. I also think reading these books in mixed media audio, print, ebooks helps. I agree totally with choosing the stories you are drawn to. I don't think people need to force themselves to read Classic books, but if you want to read them, I think taking your time and reading them slowly and carefully helps. War and Peace was written very slowly and released over years. Original readers would have had a different context for the story and a different way of consuming the story. Modern readers normally fly through books, but sometimes it helps to reread sections, stop and do research. I have found stories I have understood more using these approaches.
I think that's a great observation, and I also think that my style of reading just doesn't suit this type of book. Great points about contemporary readers reading this book in a different way. I think that to an extent we are cursed by an over abundance of choice at the moment, which can make it harder to stick with a longer book that isn't grabbing us.
And if try Classic try Jack London The Call from the Wild that is a great book 👌
That is a good one!
Have you read The Hound of the Baskervilles? To me, it's the best ACD! Also, Les Mis is good. It's good you are skipping the remainder of the original 12. 😄 I, too, don't get the fascination with Austen or any of the Brontes. But, I certainly have not tried them all - lol. Wuthering Heights was yucky!! Read what you want! Ignore the "critics"!!
I hated House of Leaves, but after reading Demon Copperhead at the beginning of the year I am now loving David Copperfield. Maybe you could give Great Expectations another chance sometime by listening to the Eddie Izzard performance of it. Cheers.
You have to give classics time, above all. If you pull the ripcord after 100 pages then you will never have a chance to develop a taste for them. I remember being bored to tears by Thomas Mann's The Magic Mountain, but I went back to it a few years later and it ended up becoming a favourite of mine. Doing something unfamiliar will always be difficult at first: if you're out of shape then doing some exercise will be hard at first, but that's not a good reason for avoiding it. Similarly with reading, harder books can work different muscles, but in the end it will be rewarding.
I found your video (and most of the comments) quite depressing because it looks like a lot of people aren't prepared to allow themselves to grow and learn from new experiences. I've lived with War and Peace for nearly 30 years and it's been one of the most rewarding books I have ever read. I can understand not liking certain books but this 'classics are not for me' attitude is pretty bleak. Admittedly, you were given a terrible list of books to start with so I'm not surprised that this reading project hit the buffers.
Yeah and there are certainly classics I've enjoyed - as noted in the video. I think the key thing is to find classics (and other books) that work for you rather than struggling to read books you don't like just because they're "classics"
Macbeth ROCK Olly! Okay wait...I don't think I've ever actually read it now that I'm thinking.
Ditch Lord of the Flies that one was the real slog of high school LOL.
Totally understand what you're saying. Maybe we need to put a few novelization and Dinosaurs in the curriculum.
I've actively avoided reading Classics since I was a teen (I'm 57) for the usual reasons: I found the ones I tried long, boring & difficult. But a couple of months ago I set out to fill the gaps in my reading experience & Classics has become a part of that (along with 20th cent classics, Latin-Am & Japanese lit). I set myself the challenge of reading 100 pgs of as many classics as I can. I'm going to finish the ones I enjoy, and DNF the ones I don't enjoy. I chose 100 pgs so as to not put pressure on myself to finish a book I wasn't enjoying, but at the same time "try something new/give old books a chance". I think this 100pg experiment will give these books a fair chance. I've only done Moby Dick so far & was pleasantly surprised at how entertaining it is. I intend on finishing it. Sense & Sensibility is prob next. 🙂
oooh, that sounds like a great strategy!
Life's too short to read boring books.
I also fully believe that some books you can just read and completely enjoy them without having to delve too deeply into it and see all the nuances . Maybe there just isn’t really any and its just a rather bizzare story ?
I say this as someone who absolutely loved Thomas Pynchons The crying of Lot 49 . Did i dig deep through it ? Nope ! Have I watched all the detailed critical analysis you tube videos on it ? Yep some ! Did it make my experience of the book any better ? Nope - I found it hugely entertaining just as a rather weird , bonkers book , and that is what in my opinion makes challenging reads good . If you enjoy them on the surface and you think the over all story is great , then that in my mind makes a brilliant book regardless
I completely agree with that! That's exactly how I read House of Leaves and I had a load of fun with it
@@CriminOllyBlog ive yet to read House of Leaves its been sat on my shelf for 2 years or more - so much to read - if only i didnt have to work LOL
I sometimes wonder if some authors are looking at all the readers analysis of their books and laughing their heads off … especially Pynchon - Does there really have to be any hidden meanings in these stories or are they just simply meant to be as they are ? Of course there may always be subtle nods towards certain things , however I can’t get on board with the unlocking of every single detail - an indepth chain if you like - leading to stars aligning and a higher depth of understanding when its totally away from the story itself ?
Have you read The crying of lot 49 Olly ? If not please read it - its very marmite , but ai found it so utterly bizzare i LOVED it - it spans so much in such a small book . I put it down after reading it and was literally WOW , WOW & WOW - whatever the hell that was it was fantastic lol . Its still with me to this day and I have thought about it on and off for the past 2 years . That to me is a sign of a good book .
I did an inadvertent DNF of _War and Peace._ Somewhere around p. 200 I laid it aside and never went back. If I ever read Tolstoy again it’ll be his short stories.
I suspect you're not alone in doing that!
@@CriminOllyBlog do you remember which translation of War and Peace you attempted?
@@astinus4 it was the Briggs
I love House Of Leaves and have read it a few times but only once have I read all the Johnny Truant bits! I used to feel a bit guilty about this but reasoned that I have fulfilled my contract with the author by buying it and so I can enjoy it however I bloody well want 😁 Liberating!
More like War and Piss
Dammit, I could have saved everyone a lot of time by making that my video
Great video as usual. When I was in high school I nearly failed English my first two years because I couldn't get into the required readings. Somehow, in my Senior year, I got into AP English and the first two books assigned were The Stranger (Albert Camus) and Heart of Darkness (Joseph Conrad). I absolutely loved them. Everything before that was stuff that I was supposed to "relate" to. I found that condescending. I recently finished Donna Tartt's The Goldfinch and found it hard to get through (but I am really glad I did). I read the frst part and put it away for about six months, but then was able to get back into it (which I think recommends it as a good novel). I don't mind challenging novels, but I really have to want to read it. It took me three attempts before I finished Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. When I was an undergrad, my friends joked that guys only carried around copies of Finnegan's Wake because they were trying to pick up brainy girls.
On a diiferent note, I've put Moby Dick in my tbr pile based on both: your videos and the music of AHAB - a German Doom Metal band whose album The Call of the Wretched Sea is their interpretation (it's a phenominal album if you're a metalhead).
I read a lot! But when it comes to the classics, I just don't care for them.
I think I’m mostly the same
I've also felt I 'had' to read certain books (just like I 'had' to watch certain movies) and I'm slowly, over the last few years, trying to rewire my brain in this aspect. I still catch myself watching or reading something for the sole reason to tell people I've read it, or for people to take me seriously as a reader. But more and more I just read and watch what I want to, and try not to care what other people think of the books I consume. I love Jane Austen, but I also love not-so-good kids fantasy books, it's calming. Whatever I read, I want to love it. And over the last 2 years, I've only read books I adored, except for maybe 2 or 3. :)
Also, something completely different, I wonder if any of you have recommendations for sad, wonderful, heartbreaking books? I read 'A Little Life' in January and I yearn for something else to break my heart :D
On your Discord, is it also okay to talk about non-horror/crime books? :)
Well done for finding your reading happy place! I think many of us struggle to really nail that done.
Heartbreaking books is a very interesting idea for recommendations! A Little Life is a great example - I'll have to see if I can think of any others.
And yes - it's fine to talk about ANY kids of books on the Discord :)
@@CriminOllyBlog Yes! So far I've felt really safe and welcome in the Discord :D Have you read A Little Life? I'd love to hear it if you have thought of others ^-^ thank you
@@elliyo4286 Excellent! I have read A Little Life - I am struggling to think of things quite as heartbreaking though
On one thing I do agree with you, people shouldn't read a book because they feel obliged but because they enjoy it. I'm a little sad you've given up on War and Peace, it is one of my favorites. I finally got around to reading it after having bout it years before. There was an article somewhere about the translations. So, I decided it was about time I read it. I got two different English translations and feeling there might be differences I got a Portuguese and Spanish translations just in case. Yes. I'm a gluten for punishment. The most intersting aspect of the book I felt were the relationships of the people. When I began I made a mind map showing how everyone was related. I also consulted maps to see where things were happening. Perhaps you'll read it some time in the future.
One of the problems in reading maybe any book is the approach people take or how they are presented. When I read "The Outsiders" one of the characters was reading "Great Expectations" and read that too because I felt the author put it there for a reason. Perhaps one way to read and understand is ti relate the story to one's own experience. For example what does Macbeth have to do with modern politics? When reading Richard III watch "Looking for Richard" starring Al Paccino, Before reading "The Tempest" watch "Forbidden Planet".
Good luck
I read War and Peace in college. I still remember the lecturer writing "chronotope" on the white board and me thinking the length of the book might be the least of my problems. When you said you were going to read it I actually said out loud, "no you're not." Even if you got really attached to Pierre (for some reason) that is still a lot of Russian history and cultural norms to wander through.
And as far as the niceness of Booktube reviews I would say it's true of most of the subgenre divisions but not of popular fiction/mainstream channels. There is a tipping point where a writer like Sarah J. Maas or Taylor Jenkins Reid becomes almost too successful or too adored and then you get a whole flotilla of "people are going to hate me but I don't like..." videos. Circle of life.
I read War and Peace in the same timeframe it took to read Moby Dick - two months. I found War and Peace to be the superior read overall. Moby Dick left me cold but Tolstoy’s characters are still haunting me.
Everything you said is true. I feel the same way about classics as any other book.if it’s torturous , stop reading it.
Great video. You hit the nail on the head. I just found you by way of "Paperback Fanatic". Looking forward to more. Thank you, Scott
Reading for learning is called textbooks. Reading fiction should be fun. Sometimes classic difficult books are seen as enjoyable by some people. That's great. For others, they need something else. Not saying non-fiction can't be enjoyable, but fiction just doesn't have anything else to offer but enjoyment, so if it isn't enjoyable to you, DNF and no apologies! Other people will still love the book. You should never read something because you feel you should read it. Just read what you love! Personally I like stepping outside of my comfort zone. There's just so much Isaac Asimov to read and then you need something else. But I still don't read classic books just to look intelligent or to "fit in". I still read to enjoy it. Probably the reason I have never been compelled to pick up War and Peace.