Is Race Swapping in Fiction Wrong? My Official Position
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- On this video I'll address the controversial topic of blackwashing and whitewashing in fiction. I have already discussed these practices when it comes to both, historical documentaries and historical fiction. Today we'll address Pure Fiction.
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The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power is an American fantasy television series developed by J. D. Payne and Patrick McKay for the streaming service Amazon Prime Video. Based on the novel The Lord of the Rings and its appendices by J. R. R. Tolkien, the series is set thousands of years before Tolkien's The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings and depicts the major events of Middle-earth's Second Age. It is produced by Amazon Studios in association with New Line Cinema and in consultation with the Tolkien Estate.
Amazon bought the television rights for The Lord of the Rings from the Tolkien Estate in November 2017, making a five-season production commitment worth at least US$1 billion. This would make it the most expensive television series ever made. Payne and McKay were hired in July 2018. The series is primarily based on the appendices of The Lord of the Rings, which include discussion of the Second Age. Tolkien's grandson Simon Tolkien was consulted on the development of the series. Per the requirements of Amazon's deal with the Tolkien Estate, it is not a continuation of Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit film trilogies. Despite this, the production intended to evoke the films using similar production design, younger versions of characters from the films, and a main theme by Howard Shore who composed the music for both trilogies. Bear McCreary composed the series' score.
A large international cast was hired, and filming for the eight-episode first season took place in New Zealand, where the films were produced, from February 2020 to August 2021 (with a production break of several months during that time due to the COVID-19 pandemic). Amazon moved production for future seasons to the United Kingdom, where filming for the second season took place from October 2022 to June 2023 (finishing during the 2023 Writers Guild of America strike).
The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power premiered on September 1, 2022, with its first two episodes. The rest of the eight-episode first season ran until October 14. Amazon said the season was the most-watched of any Prime Video original series, and it received generally positive reviews from critics. The second season is expected to be released in 2024.
The Little Mermaid is a 2023 American musical fantasy film directed by Rob Marshall from a screenplay written by David Magee. Co-produced by Walt Disney Pictures, Lucamar Productions, and Marc Platt Productions, it is a live-action adaptation of Disney's 1989 animated film of the same name, itself loosely based on the 1837 fairy tale of the same title by Hans Christian Andersen. The film stars Halle Bailey in the titular role, alongside Jonah Hauer-King, Daveed Diggs, Awkwafina, Jacob Tremblay, Noma Dumezweni, Art Malik, Javier Bardem and Melissa McCarthy. The Little Mermaid follows a mermaid princess Ariel who is fascinated with the human world and makes a deal with a treacherous sea witch Ursula to trade her voice for human legs to impress Prince Eric, who she saved from a shipwreck before time runs out.
Plans for a remake of 1989's The Little Mermaid were confirmed in May 2016. In December 2017, Disney announced Marshall was being courted to direct the film. Bailey, Hauer-King, McCarthy, Bardem, Diggs, Tremblay, Awkwafina, and the rest of the cast signed on between July to November 2019. Production was expected to begin in London between late March and early April 2020 but was delayed by the COVID-19 pandemic.
The beautiful and kindhearted princess Snow White charms every creature in the kingdom except one -- her jealous stepmother, the Queen. When the Magic Mirror proclaims Snow White is the fairest one of all, she must flee into the forest, where she befriends the lovable seven dwarfs -- Doc, Sneezy, Grumpy, Happy, Bashful, Sleepy and Dopey. But when the Queen tricks Snow White with an enchanted apple, only the magic of true love's kiss can save her!
#metatron #blackwashing #woke
Kinda weird how in Snowwhite, a story set in medieval Germany has such a diverse cast, while Mulan, a story set in a chinese dynasty, has a strictly chinese cast
Precisely.
Double standards
The Chinese don't accept bullshit. That's the difference
Yeah, EXACTLY!
@@Player-re9mo
to me, as a brown mexican man, there is one more problem: by black or brown swapping these characters, we are told that the best we can do is be a generic colored placeholder for an actually interesting white character.
how about producing original black and brown stories??
This is the best point IMO, there are so many new stories and tales just waiting to be brought forth, to be watched. Old and new stories, and characters just begging to be given a chance, to be known! But no, we have to re make over and over again the same "10 tales," no chance for the new writer, or the old one, forgotten.
Couldn't agree more! What we need isn't forced diversity in casting, natural diversity through storytelling. This is how we truly move forward, because storytelling is how we have learnt about and understood the world for centuries.
As a white dude, I totally agree, but I think it's mostly laziness on Hollywood's part: why invest in an original story when you can make an old one for the 19th time? They of course do this serially, whether they're race-swapping or not, and I find it annoying anyway. Did we really need a remake of The Manchurian Candidate? How many Three Musketeers films will finally be enough? And aside from the debate everyone had about The Little Mermaid... did they even need to make that film again in the first place?
Even when they go part way, they always seem to screw it up somehow. Message from the King was a pretty badass film with a black male lead - an original fictional story specifically about a black character. But the black character was from South Africa and they still cast a black American guy to play him, and probably hired a dialect coach to help him fake the accent. Which still left me wondering... are there no good African actors? I feel like there probably are.
There's also just the Anglocentric and Eurocentric bias which I find annoying. Not because there's anything wrong with a culture like Europe or America making films about its own context or history (the Indian, Nigerian, Korean film industries of course do the same), but because they seem to be saying, with all of these remakes, that they're out of stories to tell, and meanwhile there is a wealth of stories to be told all over the world which they seem not to want to explore.
That would require talent or skill. Something modern writers lack.
Actually, Disney pulled this off some years ago with "How the Emperor got his Groove Back. " It was a magical story set in the Andes in the time of the Inca. It was pretty good.
"Why do you even care" is the most disgusting response. They KNOW why anybody cares, because they care enough to change it in the first place.
*Because they're the ones who actually ARE RACIST!*
*It's basically like a thief accusing a lawyer for noticing what the thief has been doing all along!*
I care that my race is seen as a character flaw by popular culture.
@@ArrakisHeir88 I care that the existence of my race is seen as a problem to be solved-starting with White Erasure in film, media, advertising designed to condition populations for real-world erasure. The same disingenuous two-faced lies are used in the real world discussing subjects such as race and immigration in White countries.
Michael Anton termed it _celebration parallax_ -those who see it as a good thing are free to proudly boast of growing “diversity” (nonwhites replacing Whites), whether celebrating how “diverse” (how few Whites) in the cast of a new movie, or celebrating how a country is demographically becoming more “diverse” (less White) due to deliberate govt immigration policies. However anyone who might not be excited about such “diversity”, or even just someone neutral who happens to ask questions about it, will immediately be attacked demanding to know ‘why do you even care? why would you even notice that? you must be a crazy conspiracy theorist to think that since it’s not happening; just coincidence that all classic Disney films are being remade with nonwhite actors replacing Whites-they all just happened to be best qualified for the job…’
It's super disingenuous hypocrisy. They're the ones that insist on shoehorning 'race consciousness' into everything, yet will immediately resort to "why does it even matter" the second anyone else has an ethnicity-related grievance.
@@ArrakisHeir88 what race are you talking about?
I once dressed as Blade for Halloween for school. Principle and Resource Officer checked my locker because instead of looking like a vampire hunter, I looked like the Uni Bomber.
The world isnt ready for White Blade I guess.
Dexter, the Serial Killer, makes an hilarious joke saying that same thing: "He looks like the Uni Bomber." I think I'm finally searching and get to know who that dude actually is.
@@HeathenDance Clive Owen made a uni-bomber joke too, in the "Shoot Em Up" movie.
Part of the irony for me is that there is a very good example of fictional race swapping done right. Princess and the Frog. The reason for that being that they in fact did not fixate on the color of their skin but instead put the whole story in a completely different setting (New Orleans in the 20s) and made the visual changes ACCORDINGLY. They did not fixate on skin, they concentrated on actual culture and telling a compelling story in a believable, unique setting. They made every necessary change to tell the story in an interesting, entertaining and believable way.
NOT A SINGLE PERSON COMPLAINED ABOUT THAT. WHERE WAS THE "RACIST BACKLASH" WHEN THAT MOVIE CAME OUT??
That's not race swapping. That's an adaptation. Race swapping is when the context is set in a specific demograph, culture and they outright swapped out the character. It's like Aladdin suddenly being Italian, and all the events are still set in Arabia and arabic culture.
Princess and the Frog follows that plotline at it's most basic foundation, but it's still an entirely different story. It's much like saying "Another cinderella story", starring Selena Gomez is race swapped.
I made this same point with Little mermaid.
It would have been understandable if they'd changed EVERYTHING:
Make everybody black, set the story either in the carribeans or West Africa and in the local culture.
That would have been a very interesting tale to tell.
@@chidmania8485 Would be hard to do, since while they were downplayed in the Disney movie, some of the themes in the original were based on Christian assumptions - for instance, in the original, the reason why the mermaid getting the prince to fall in love with her would stabilise the transformation is that it would give her a human soul. So transferring The Little Mermaid into another cultural background would lose that aspect. Unless they really did their research and found a non-European culture that has a similar concept.
That was before widespread use of social media, thus less opportunity to whip up a visible hate mob, and there very much was considerable whining on Fox Noose etc. about Tiana.
And Disney's live-action The Little Mermaid did make according changes to the setting. Not all of them well, but they did at least put actual thought into it. (And the bigger problems with the writing stem from their notions that a sixteen-year-old falling in love at first sight is "problematic" and that Eric also getting a heroic moment saving Ariel is "antifeminist".) The real problem is that "Disney's The Little Mermaid" is already an established brand, and therefore people at best feel a disconnect and at worst fear that the version they have an emotional attachment to is being taking away (in promo material, theme parks, etc.). Had any other studio made this adaptation (minus the few elements that the original Disney version added - basically the animal sidekicks and the songs), it would have gotten far less complaints (but on the flip side also far less attention of any sort and thus less hype).
Also latina wonder woman o7 it just makes sense she's from the amazons
Yes, because it is done ONLY to erase, insult and remove a group of people. Those works of fiction are also part of that groups culture, heritage and history.
The world seems to forget that we even have a culture or traditions. In fact, I've heard someone say Europeans have no culture.
@@cocobunitacobuni8738 Have you any idea the "reasons" for these thoughts, that there is no white/euro culture..What drives this so hard? There has got to be a reason but I am at a loss.
@@danivanbuskirkbeil2557 I have a hypothesis (totally disputable) that it has to do with Christianity. I once told my father "If it were up to you, the whole world would look like this town" he said "yes" There is this idea or feeling that the Christianised European/British/American culture is somehow the norm and that everything else is exotic (that's what attracts us to these cultures to begin with). I hypothesize that this homogenic idea of European culture is sometimes seen as a blank slate. Our culture is "every day" What they don't realize is that we might not have totem poles or ghost dances or didgeridoos or hieroglyphics but we have music, architecture, folk tales, philosophy and so on, those are our totems. Excuse my clumsiness hopefully you get the idea.
@@cocobunitacobuni8738 Saying Europeans have no culture is a whole new level of stupid. Europe is a continent full of countries with incredible histories and cultures, it's not a monolith that these idiots can generalise like that.
Btw ask them which language they're using
@@cocobunitacobuni8738 In my opinion it is simpler than that: It is another tool to destroy the cultural identity of the West, making us doubt our shared cultural identity.
Cosplay is the perfect example for the argument "you don't need to look exactly like a character to be able to imagine yourself as the character".
Ya mean I don't have to have a high IQ and are great with riddles to be able to dress up as The Riddler? Whew, glad no one looked down on me when I did that at work ;)
Agreed. Cosplay, dressing up for birthday parties or halloween, go for it! Be the character you love and enjoy yourself! There is no need to look exactly like the character to dress up like them.
N's are a dirty species of lesser humans, they need to be eradicated.
Cosplay is different from professional casting.
@@EpikStorm101 I get that. But a big argument used for the casting is that this way people can see themselves in a character based on skin color. The fact that many cosplayers cosplay their favorite characters regardless of skin color shows that this is not necessary for a lot, if not most people.
When I was a kid I unearthed a collection of several anthology books: Stories of Asian/African/North American/South American/European/ Peoples from Australia and Oceania that belonged to my uncle and that contained stories from every corner of the planet. It was the most wonderful treasure cove that I could have imagined and I grew up reading these wonderful fables and fairy tales told by native people of Indonesia, Sudan, Hawaii, Rapa Nui etc. (fun fact: the Italian Three Oranges was one of my absolute favourites!). I cried, empathized and cheered for all the characters, them being so vastly different from me. People nowadays have almost no imagination and even less understanding for what is different from their own experience then in the past. Which is just absurd given how available information about other cultures and their trials and tribulations is... Pathetic. Even more pathetic is the laziness of today's entertainment industry.
No they don’t, hence all the race swapping, gender bending, reboots and remakes
Raceswapping is wrong both ways. If you want diversity create new characters.
This!!!!
They know deep down that they aren't talented or creative enough to come up with compelling original characters that people will like.
That's why they're so keen on appropriating existing, popular characters and shoehorning a race swap onto it.
@@Unpainted_Huffhines Basically: Evil cannot create anything new they can only corrupt and ruin good forces have invented or made
🎯🎯🎯
Exactly, but most of them are not talented by taking the hard work of time and effort. They rather do the easy copy cat
As an African I would to say that I find this discussion insulting to us as black people. We have our own stories, our own mythology and it's just so easy and lazy to just change a characters race. Companies like Disney and Netflix have enough resources to hire writers and consultants from Africa or any other black group of writers to write new stories. There is a lot of data that shows that it can still be lucrative, e.g blackpanther, Scandal as well as other south african series that are doing well on Netflix internationally. We just don't need to have elves!
There are stories already written that are popular. it's just that Hollywood isn't interested. And tbh I'm fine with that. With the crap they've been releasing its best, they leave our stories to our indie studios. Like in SA they've produced a Shaka Zulu TV series recently called Shaka Ilembe, in Nigeria a small indie studio called Komotions Studios is working on a 3D motion capture film called Dawn of Thunder about the Orisha Sango. In my home country of Zimbabwe, there are indie comic and animation studios growing. We, as Afticans, can't trust Hollywood with our stories.
They already screwed a originally black story and completely changed the roles of the characters "the woman king" (metatrons made a video about it) its just awful how they twist everything just for attention and money
They will never do a story on anansi
I would love to watch your folktales and mythology come to life in series and movies.
Even dark elves wouldn't in and of itself be unpopular. But it all depends on which fictional universe it is set in. In Tolkien's universe, orcs for example are a corrupted form of elves. But in many other fictional universes they are a separate species, with varying degrees of sentience. Warhammer, World of Warcraft, D&D. In some they're a tribal society, in others they're just violent monsters closer to animals.
I agree with the sentiment that fiction should stay true to the original author. What they wrote resonated with people so that it became so widely known. It's so arrogant to change a successful story and assuming the changes are an improvement. If someone is a great author, they can write an original story on par with the story they lazily adapted. If they're not a great author, then they have no right to change the works of one.
As a little girl, I never felt the need to "relate" to any of the princesses. I loved them all, and I pretended to be every single one of them, regardless of their skin tone. I never even registered the fact that they were a different color or race or whatever. They were just pretty, and I loved their stories, so I pretended to be them when playing with my cousins, lol. The whole "I need/want to feel represented" is bullshit, and I think people need to get over themselves. Also, race-swapping has to be the most blatant slap to the face to minorities, because these studios are basically saying "sorry, your culture and your people don't have interesting stories to tell, so we will just give you a rehash with a different color, and you better eat it up!" instead of actually creating interesting new characters.
To those that say "hur dur you're just racist" I say stfu. Moana is a brown girl and it was a huge hit. Milo from Spiderman as well. Tiana from Princess and the Frog. The general public doesn't hate colored characters. They hate rehashed ones that are swapped for no real reason. Make new characters. Make new stories. Stop rehashing the same old stories with the only "new" twist being "the token colored protagonist" because THAT is racist.
You feel that way all you want. They see your race as a flaw that can be improved upon.
@@ArrakisHeir88 who?
@@Spookatz. The Disney execs, for one. And most of the third world for another.
@@ArrakisHeir88 "the third world"? what do you mean by that?
@Spookatz1 I mean that a large portion of the less privileged parts of the world view it as their cultural duty (a plurality even have a religious reason) to replace and displace the indigenous peoples of various foreign places, and the higher on the social totem pole the victim group is, the greater a victory is perceived.
Along with race swapping, the other thing i hate in fiction or historical fiction (as well as in history in general) is the changing of characters view points and actions to suit 21st century values, simply because they want the characters to still be likeable and relatable.
I think we learn more from showing things - right or wrong - for what they were at the time-
Many authors of fantasy and fiction often still put a lot of their own views and thoughts and beliefs, or general prevailing view points of society in general at the time, - into their written works - and for me that actually gives a fascinating insight into life during their time period- how people functioned during that time, what kind of thoughts and beliefs people had- whether right or wrong, liked or disliked- much can still be learned even from fiction and just like real history thats why people who are passionate about such things- hate it being changed or messed with.
Do you know what kills any story? Audience saying "I don't care what happens to these characters" kills every story. Being true to norms of era depicted (even when completely true) has big risk of causing that happening.
We live in a time of great hypocrisy, where the guilty accuse the innocent of that which they themselves are guilty.
@@vksasdgaming9472 i disagree. Look at the tv show Vikings. The main characters pillage, rape, kill civilians, etc, and its the second most watched history show. My own mother had Rollo has her favorite character, he raped multiple women in that show. So i think people are capable of understanding that times where different back then.
Not to mention Game of Thrones.
@@KevinUchihaOG It depends on writing and characterization. Certain values resonate through the ages. Nobody wants to watch a story of quarrel between Ulf the Kindergarten-burner and Hank the Kindergarten-poison gasser who disagree on proper method of killing everyone in kindergarten. Unknown third party breaking the stalemate is Larry the Kindergarten-Shooter who has novel method.
It's hard to say which one is worse, but both are surely spokes
on the same wheel of corruption and cultural eradication.
As a German who grew up near the black forest (where many of the Grimm's tales originate), Snow White was quite culturally significant to me. I would say she's more of a remnant of old European beauty standards (when fair skin was the ideal) than an actual heroine. So in her case I would argue that her looks are integral to the story. Being really pale myself, I never fit in with the 2000's standard of super tan skin and was even bullied for being "white as cheese", so having a fairytale princess look similar to me was kind of comforting as a child tbh. It's not like there weren't/aren't enough beautifully tan Latinas shown in most other media. Also, the dwarves are apparently a fantasy representation of miners in the black forest region, hence being short and wearing the typical pointy hats lol
Your skin is beautiful. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
From what I understand, the dwarves were actually children miners as the mines tunnels were too small for adults and would have collapsed if made bigger. Aaaaah the past!
Lmao you arent German.
She has the name because of her white skin, so making her a latina is insensitive AND racist.
So sehe ich das.
@@danaos4120 You're an intelligence reject.
I'm a Northern European, I'm as white as it gets. Out of all Disney characters, I identified myself the most was Mulan. Why? Because of the qualities of her character. I admired her loyalty and her perseverence, her bravery, and the way she got her ass handed to her in the beginning but overcame that (re: perseverence). I saw a lot of myself in her (and a lot of what I wanted to be in her), and she even inspired me in some hard spots in my life. To think that I "shouldn't" be able to relate to this character because of the differences in our ethnicity or cultural backgrounds is... mind-hobbling. The woke bigots are really erasing everything Mulan is and represents and stripping it down to her race, the way her skin and features look - and they don't even realise that they're doing it.
How vapid must be the life of a person who can only relate to a shell, rather than what truly makes a person the person they are.
Me too!!! I wanted to be Mulan! (I’m blond, blue eyed, the sun hates me)
I also wanted to be Batman!
Looks and gender had nothing to do with my ideal. It was the character.
@@Trish.Norman Precisely!
I’m Czech/Italian, and I love Mulan as well. Same with Tiana. They were hard working, caring, brave, and worked to get what they wanted.
Look am a stone from mars so I always saw my self as a fish
And that's why, things are falling apart.whites are their own worst enemy, just ushering in their own demise.
Casting a black actress to play Snow White seems just as reasonable as casting a white actor as Black Panther.
for me it's even worse because Snow White belongs to the culture of Germany and was gathered as a folk tale by the brothers Grimm. It was a collation of probably many variants of a folk tale passed on from parents to children for generations. I am as unhappy as the Greeks and Egyptians were with the Cleopatra nonsense. It makes me feel that somehow our culture is cheap and anyone can help them to it whereas other cultures are somehow sacred. As you and many others have pointed out, if I were to make a Krishna movie or a Mulan movie and European actors the world would burn. We also have culture and traditions and it is also not for sale.
The actress is not Black but a white half-Latina.
@@cocobunitacobuni8738that's how I felt when I saw black angroboda in gow Ragnarok my culture is not a costume
@@cocobunitacobuni8738 Their versions of many fairy tales also changed over time. For example in the first release it was Snow White's actual mother who wanted her dead.
But that was probably too morally wrong. Wanting to eat her organs was still fine.
@@cocobunitacobuni8738The original German fairy tale is incredibly gruesome, with body parts being cut off and the stepmother having to dance in red-hot iron shoes. I guess you wouldn't insist on not changing these details in a remake.
The word "fidelity" is EXACTLY the word I've been looking for for years!! I couldn't quite put my finger on it...
All well said, sir.
Thank you Metatron for being willing to say out loud what 90% of us are all thinking.
My pleasure. I’ll be your voice
@@metatronyt i think you dont understand how companies like Disney work. Companies are immoral. They don't care about who is black or white. All they care about is profit. Currently inclusivity is the hip. If something else was rad now, like being rascist, they would jump on that bandwagon to please the audience.
@@metatronytdude your just a racist who dog whistles. You said Spider-Man as if miles isn’t a separate character from Peter Parker.
I ain't afraid to say it
@@Buddy-Dale if you complained about Spider-Man being black in real life you’d get smacked
THANK YOU. I once had a girl tell me about how horrible it was to whitewash historically black characters and 30 seconds later was praising blackwashing historically white characters.
Also as you pointed out with fidelity to source material: sometimes these stories have roots in cultural legends, folklore, and stories that go back hundreds of years. If it would be silly to have white dudes acting out traditional African myths and legends, then it should be equally silly to cast a bunch of African dudes to act out traditional European myths and legends.
Year's ago I had Hispanic girl tell me how fansty or Science fiction have no excuse for having mostly white poeple in there movies. Saying it was racist.
I ask her one question. Isn't it's racist to be upset over a movie having white people in it. She stop talking to me after that.
Just wanted to add, this girl wanted to be in politics.
And yet, the latter is now being done habitually under the guise of "diversity," which is meaningless.
The pushy blacktivists even presume to blackwash African history when it suits them, claiming Africa is "black," a predictable assumption by people who've never set foot there, think the continent and it's people are monolithic, and are intent to engage in revisionist history to appropriate that which they covet but don't understand.
The "Rules for thee but not for me!" mentality so prevalent among the blacktivist set and their white leftist enablers is meeting with resistance now. Finally.
@@bluetooth2677 LOL, go figure. And we wonder how Politics got so screwed up. All the normal, sane people opted out of going into Politics! smh
@@ealan3694 Yup, I had another admit she was pushing teenagers to vote Democrat. It's crazy how people are nowadays.
I think also black washing for inclusivity is just a lazy alternative. Rather than create a new, cool original character, they pull something off the shelf paint the character black and go “that’ll save us lots of money”. They hardly actually care about the fans or even the woke people they’re trying to get the support for. It’s just money. Good luck Metatron,
You are our last sane hope
Case in point: Johnny Storm in The Fantastic Four.
@@Polyphemus47 Love that character from the comics.
What does woke mean?
The ONLY time that has ever worked was Nick Fury.
Not the best actor for the role just make it diverse even if it’s a medieval movie. 😊
Also, remembering that the little Mermaid was written by Hans Christian Andersen, who is danish, it is most likeley, that this story is taking part near the danish Country or at least the north Sea. Therefore Arielle is propably not black, but has charackteristics of scandinavian people. That would be the historical aproach to this charackter in my opinion.
Thank you metatron for sanding against nonsense and remaining on a logical, objective path.
It's way more than "most likely". Andersen often limited the stories to his home town,
even cited actual historical landmarks in them. So to him, these things were just as
obvious as the fact that humans have arms and not tentacles. Nevertheless, all writers
took an effort to describe their characters well enough to dispel any doubt.
Hans Christian included.
Although, i must also mention that over the many years since his stories were published,
there were numerous edits, abridges and other unnecessary modifications. If we don't
intervene, then one day all that will remain - is just Andersen's name, insolently slapped
on a boorish amalgamation of some revisionist rubbish aimed to spread lies and promote
dictatorship. His family haven't had the luxury to copyright-protect with enough legal barriers
to avoid this kind of travesty. So it falls to us, if we care about cultural legacy of the world.
100% agree
You do realize there are black and half-black people who are Danish right??
A few points.
HC Andersen was supposedly inspired by Undine which is a greek myth. So based on that it could be set in and around Greece.
Otherwise the actual story is likely set in and around a fictional land.
And last but not least, the Little Mermaid is a Disney production, loosely based on HC Andersens work. But seeing as Triton is based on Poseidon, (only called "the Sea King" in the work by HC Andersen) that also could be greek, although I think officially this version is set in the caribbean.
In conclusion, this is completely fine. She does not have to look Danish.
The only time where race should matter this much, is where it can strenghten the world building to have them come from different regions of your world, like LOTR or GoT. Never the less it's not bad, it just could be better.
Parents ( both black) videoed their daughter's reaction to the new little mermaid video ( guessing shes about 6/7 , she loved the characters, she had her bedroom wallpapered with LM , she had duvet LM , curtains, books etc .
So when she saw new Ariel she was horrified , she turns to her parents "what's this , Ariel isn't black Ariel is white " this cute lil girl had proper rant about new Ariel ,
Even though its fiction , it's a character everyone knows , I'm sure that little girl wasn't the only child to feel the same way.
I've never seen a bigger cope in my life. There are thousands of videos with little girls not no concerned with her color. Old white people seem to have an issue.
Yet, there have also been a couple of reaction videos showing little black girls being amazed with this new Ariel that is (in their words) " like me!".
I understand Metatrons argument that kids can project themselfs into every character no matter how similar or not - I think it definitely holds truth. But on the other end of the spectrum there's also truth in "representation matters". Of course you can always create a new cool representative character. But the same argument about nostalgia (at least similarly) applies here as well. Changing a well known and beloved character into a version more representative of yourself can (as shown by those reaction videos) be amazing, too.
So I think there's truth to both perspectives and as Metatron very well said both are fine and can be liked or not by various individuals. We don't need to fight about which new version is right or wrong. Because none is either. Its just a new version of a fictional character and based on one's background and personal preferences and biases one may well like one version more than another. And in the end "your" original version is still out there. It's not "erased" (the only big mistake I could find in Metatrons wording). So let's just give people with a historical background of oppression and underrepresentation the joy of this new versions.
@@malacostracus3663 No.
the child will get over it.
Of course she will
The way I see it, if you can't empathize and identify with a character (or an actual real life human being) through our shared humanity but instead need them to be exactly like you in every possible way, you've got to be a near psychopathic narcissist. Of course, most of Hollywood falls into that category, so I guess that makes sense.
The idea that someone cannot relate to a character of a difference race is a completely made up. Those people are liars.
Excellent point. We are one race, not 4 or 5. I'm afraid people are losing sight of that.
@@timriehl1500 no we aren't one race
@@EliasAngelo2047We're really all like dogs. Just different breeds if the same species.
Sing your own song, write your own story. No need to remake everything in your own image.
White people have been appropriating other cultures works for years and literally nobody had a problem ... and when the people in power won't invest on anything that isn't a sequel/already stablish work we get shit like Puerto Rican aragon and black elves
Like Jesus as a blue eyed euorpean?
@@jbownik There's also black Jesus, Han Jesus, and probably a whole lot more Jesuses.
@@jbownik Meh. I'm against all images of Jesus so I'm with ya there :)
You think they have the braincells to be creative?
What we need is original black characters, not replacing others with black. I'm talking about different African countries, not a southern princess. Same with Middle Eastern and Asian varieties. It would also be nice to see representation for more south American countries. The fact that people argue so aggressively about having to replace characters instead is very telling.
It goes deeper than just contemporary nostalgia. Ariel is a Danish folklore icon that goes back over 100 years and snow white is a prominent German fairytale princess that also goes back a couple of hundred years. These two have prominent positions in their communities that have been entrenched for generations and for a studio to come along and simply snap their fingers and make a change based on politics is infuriating.
Exactly, those stories are tied to German/ Danish culture
correct and stealing from the German or Danish culture is as bad as stealing from the Indian culture or the Chinese culture. We have culture too and we like it's appropriation just as much as the Greeks and Egyptians like theirs being appropriated etc.
@@cocobunitacobuni8738 I mean the animated versions took their fair share of liberties but at least it was in the name of entertainment and the results were good movies.
The life action ones... less so.
IIRC she had no name in the original version. If any it should have been Undine. Also the sea witch was no antagonist in that one and the prince married the wrong person in the end.
@@cocobunitacobuni8738well Egyptians had no choice but to adopt Hellenic culture tbh
I read Tolstoy’s War and Peace when I was 14 years old (I’m 60 now). One of the book’s characters which captivated me most was Countess Helen Bezukhova. On the whole, she was one of the negative characters in the book. But she was also described as a great beauty with “plump white shoulders” and “luscious black hair”. You cannot imagine my disappointment when some years later I saw both the Hollywood and Soviet movie versions of War and Peace! In both cases, Helen was portrayed by a “blond” woman and who was also decidedly “un-plump” (to adhere to the beauty standards of the 50’s and 60’s when the two movies were made). 45 years later, I have not changed my opinion, I still believe that the directors had no right to make such changes.
Same with Anna Karenina. She is supposed to be on the round, plump side - definitely not the extremely thin build of Keira Knightly. There is nothing wrong with Keira's body. But she is not Karenina.
there's a mini series out about war and peace with Lily James now too. check it out, it inspired me to buy the book and read it
@@amandak.4246 Plump does not mean fat. It’s only in today’s politically correct English that in order to avoid saying fat we say plump. Tolstoy did not have that problem.
I've had a similar dissappointment when I read a book in which the best friend of the main protagonist was consistently referred to as "the guy with the red beard" and then saw the movie adaptation where the friend was cleanly shaven. I mean, how hard would it have been to just glue a red beard onto him? Even a minor red goaty would have sufficed.
@@johnsarkissian5519 When referring to shoulders, then what do you suppose Tolstoy meant with the word 'plump'?
And did Tolstoy even write in English? if not, then what was the word he used and how does that translate into english?
If you can't come up with a better idea, then don't dismiss the existing idea.
I have been wondering why Disney does not just get the old stories from Africa if they want to be inclusive. Africa is a whole continent with loads of stories of its own that Disney or any entertainment company can use. In my opinion this race swapping just making things worst, while using African stories would be more inclusive. Just my opinion, love your work Metatron.
Yeah, you are right. I am sick of Shakespeare played by blacks. I want true African Stories played by African Actors recorded in Africa. For God's sake, Africa is a Continent as big as Russia, China, India and the USA combined. Give me Authenticity and I am even willing to pay for it.
Cause they need to renew their IP by using it, otherwise they have issues with losing it.
@@aleisterlavey9716to be fair, there are some black characters in Shakespeare's stories. But probably not as black as sub-Saharian ones, more likely North African or Arabian
It is to much work to make original stuff, it's way easier to just rehash stuff and just make small changes.
Because don't actually care about black people or black culture, all they do is just empty and lazy lip service.
If the characters were written one way, then they should be kept one way. And yes, even in comics, fantasy and superhero movies are included! Period!
We should respect the authors who created these characters and leave them the way they wrote them
very well put.
Yeah, but folktales don't have an author. They grow and change through generations of retelling.
Someone mentioned Morgan Freeman playing the role of an originally white character in The Shawshank Redemption. I think that falls well within the normal liberties that a movie adaptation should be allowed to take. It is a minor change that does not impact the story, and it is entirely believable. Also, there was probably no widespread "attachment" of a portion of the target audience to the originally white character.
But in the end it is a decision for the entertainment company to make. If the public does not like it, the movie or tv series will probably not do too well, and the company will either learn or go bankrupt.
@@swagromancerFolktales are set in a certain space and time, even if they don’t have a known author. The screens are full of race swapping for characters from Norse or Celtic mythology and folktale.
Moreso when the author IS known, look at TV series like The Last Kingdom and then explain please why do they have a black bishop with a Jamaican accent and Chinese defenders of Northumbria.
Tom Cruise replaced the Japanese main character in Edge of Tomorrow and no one complain about it.
The gingercide of Hollywood is unacceptable
Its not just the characters, the stories are changed as well. They eliminate all of the purpose of the stories. Look at little mermaid.
I tend to tread carefully with the Little Mermaid. Her hair colour isn't mentioned by Hans Christian Andersen in the story.
However some of his books were illustrated and the artist depicts her as blonde.
That being said it's quite cool that the classic Disney red hair is such a deal breaker for fans.
And I absolutely agree with you regarding the gingercide. It's as if they target the characters with the most strong characteristics that they are trying to erase.
And that falls hard on gingers who usually have blue eyes and fair skin (albeit with freckles in less northern climates).
Being a superhero fan my poster child for this is Wally West.
The confusion that the little mermaid had green skin comes from her description as having a 'rose leaf' complexion. That is an old fashioned term that denotes white skin with pink cheeks, not green skin. The literal translation from the Danish would be 'rose petal' complexion.
The fact that likely referred to wild roses, not domestic cultivars too. Wild roses are very white (extremely light pink) with a tinged pink end th petals. Literally white with rosey glow.
Who thinks rose petals are green? The most common types of rose are red or white.
@@adambielen8996 The confusion is mistranslation from petal to leaf. Petal is correct, leaf is not.
"Little mermaid" is described as having green skin, but in Witcher.
I’ve used the same defense where I said I would be upset if Morpheus was made white just the same as I am about Aragorn being made black. They will still call you racist and tell you it’s a fallacy without any explanation.
007 can be black woman as that is codename of one British agent. James Bond is white male.
I'm a man of Slav ethnicity and my ancestors were Slavs as far back into the past as I could trace them (several centuries at least). Yet I never had any problem, not even as a kid, seeing myself represented by fictional characters like Blade (black) or Daria (woman). Because these characters did represent me, my morals, my worldview, my beliefs. All the important things. Their skin color or sex were irrelevant compared to that. Only an extremist racist and sexist can say "you are not represented because that character doesn't share your skin shade or genitals". I guess modern Hollywood writers are such racists and sexists.
Bingo!
Yahoos
100 % agree!
It's more about narcissistic behavior. Because these characters don't only need to look like them (by race, sex, sexual orientation...) they need to be ideal versions of them. Flawless and perfect characters that can't do no wrong and are always right, for their egos!
Funny thing, I remember identified with Ikari Shinji from Neon Genesis Evangelion and Malcolm from Malcolm in the Middle. I'm Latina woman. No one would say these characters are their favourites because they are terrible in many ways, but they were good call outs of my own behavior and I appreciate them for that. That's another problem I have with diversity and representation. They don't allow minorities being human.
Same here. Blade? Great, I want to be like him (just different sword). And one of my most beloved characters is Red from Shawshank. Portrayed by Morgan Freeman. When I was... 15? I realized that there are no vampires, but being "the one that can get anything" is great position in the life.
Snow White: "The fairest in the land, with lips red as a rose, hair black as ebony, and skin white as snow." Yes, sounds like it's describing a brown person. 👀
Personally, I think Metatron is a closer match to Snow White than Rachel Zegler. 🤣
The question that I always pose to this is, "If representation is the issue, then why don't these production companies make movies from African and other black heritage stories?" The answer is that they don't really care about representation. They are blackwashing these characters because it's easy and it shuts up the woke with minimal effort on their part.
Exactly! I would love to see more original African stories and myths, but because I don’t like black Anne Boylein I will be called a racist.
THIS! I even said I would not have complained if the new TLM was a NEW PRINCESS and no one else would’ve really complained! We would’ve LOVED a new black princess. Tiana became one of the most beloved characters of all the princesses.
It's all about the ESG score. I wonder how many black washing would never have happened if the academy didn't push the ESG score as well as made rules that you must have a diverse cast.
My whole internet friend-group is essentially one big woke bubble and we all agree that these companies will do anything for money and would just as well throw POC under the bus and make movies about how good the KKK is if they thought it would make them richer. So I really don't know what "woke mob" they're even trying to shut up here; everyone hates them anyway and will watch their stuff regardless. I think they're really just farming outrage at the race-swapping, more than actually trying to honestly appeal to anyone.
From what I can tell, the plan looks somewhat like this:
1. Make some dumb changes that nobody asked for that conservatives will be butthurt about
2. Make a big deal about how progressive they are being, and make sure everyone hears about how they're doing this for the woke mob
3. Hope that at least a bunch of dumb 14yos on twitter will defend their bullshit simply because the evil right is complaining about it
4. Wait for yet another cycle of "they are erasing our culture" - "if you think that you're literally hitler" that gives them free exposure
Disney wins, online content creators feast on the scrapes and POC and other minorities get hate for stuff they never asked for.
It would be very cool to see a movie about Mansa Musa and his pilgrimage to Mecca.
You can‘t race-swap Snowwhite. She got her name because „her skin was white as snow“. In this case it doesn‘t make sense
I'm a woman. One of my early teenage heroes was Athos from the Three Musketeers novels.
Yes, my favourite character was a severe alcoholic with a troubled past of betrayal and guilt.
And I definitely had more characters who I could identify with even if they weren't a woman nor white (or even not human):
Tabaluga (a Dragon from a german cartoon), Ahsoka, Mulan, Pochahontas, Winnetou & Old Shatterhand, Richard Sharpe, Hornblower and more.
Same! For me is it more the charakter and behavior and not the ethnicity or gender. If it a interessting charakter, i am on XD Do you know the mole (Henk de Mol) from Alfred J. Kwak? XD
@@TheWatch85 Same. With Athos it has always been his strong believe in friendship, staying strong against all odds and his very own way of portraying nobility.
Sadly I do not know who you speak of.
Three Musketeers should always be French period. Either a Black Frenchmen or WHite Frenchmen Because the story is a French story .
The woke have no arguments.
It's just excuses.
They are just cultural terrorists.
They want to piss off 80% of Americans.
That's their main goal.
Sean Bean is a little small to be Sharpe and yet now I can't picture Sharpe as anyone else!
I wouldn't mind the Little Mermaid character being black if this was a brand new interpretation of the story, one with a new version of the character and that diverged from the original story (and from the 1989 film) in many different ways. That's why I didn't mind Princess Tiana in the Princess and the Frog being black, because it was a whole new interpretation of the original story with a different version of the main character. But this was a direct remake of the 1989 film, with the exact same story and the exact same character, Ariel. So literally one of the only things they changed about it was Ariel's skin colour, so they just blackwashed her.
They could *dramatic pause* use the real storyline for the little mermaid instead of the happy-go-lucky Disney version.
Never thought of it that way. Very good point
The problem is also that in one case, Ariel aka Little Mermaid was a widely watched movie which is still watched by millions of kids but the folk story that the princess and the frog was based on was not as widely known hence why they could somewhat change the character and they definitely deviated from the original folk story a lot so no one really minded that.
I have an idea I really like, in keeping with your notion of changing the setting time and place, thus the ethnicity. We had An Xmas Carol, in jolly old England. Next we had an American Xmas Carol. Why can't we have An African American Xmas Carol?In addition to socio, economic commentary, add race to the mix. A new element. This Scrooge is even worse as he's exploiting an exploited people. His own . This worked for the Wiz anyway. Less of a reboot, though more fantasy , lending itself to a different treatment too
They made a Cinderella movie back in the 90s with Toni Braxton. And now you complain because you're conservative snowflakes want you to....
The word "Desperate" springs to my mind when it comes to race swapping movie role characters.
My view is "if you can't stick to the source material, do something else." I accept changes for the sake of medium, but not characters. Fellowship of the Ring cut the Old Forest and Barrow Downs because there's just too much stuff to fit in a two hour movie. But making Aragorn black not at all, because we know what he looks like, and we know his entire genealogy and it sure isn't sub-Saharan African.
To be fair PJ did change Aragorns, Faramirs, Frodos and a bunch of others in smaller or larger ways. Which is also bad in its own way.
Personally really hate how he changed Faramir
@@Soulwhistle Oh I have my complaints there, but at least he can explain them. Faramir, in particular, was changed to throw some drama into Frodo's story, which he felt needed some conflict. I don't like it but I can at least understand his mentality.
By that logic it's not English/European/whatever real life equivalent, either. I agree race-swapping is silly, but at least use a decent argument.
@peaceonmars9163 But you're being disingenuous in bad faith because you know exactly what he means and you are being pedantic to prove what exactly? Get off your high horse, please.
@@peaceonmarsAlso Aragorn, and all other men in the book, was EXPRESSLY, by the author, inspired by Caucasian and Caucasian-only mythology. So yes, English/European/whatever, as you say.
If race wasn't important - they wouldnt of changed it in the first place.
Nailed it!
It's very important to race hustlers.
Exactly
IMPOSSIBLE! (im jk)
*wouldn't've
My biggest gripe with Snow White (besides the dwarves) is that she is described as "lips red as the rose, hair black as ebony, and skin WHITE as snow". Though to be fair, if my memory is correct, in the Grimm brothers version of the fairy tale (the one most people in the US probably know), her mother wished for a child "as red as blood, as white as snow, and as black as the wood of the window". For context, the queen pricked her finger while sewing and some of her blood fell onto the snow on the window frame (which was made of ebony wood) and she thought it looked beautiful so wished for a child as beautiful as that.
Ummm, so they could actually make her black and color her hair white, and it would be correct. A bit creepy, but correct.
@@Gabi_Citterionot in the spirit of it, no. Black skin was so rare that hair was the assumed colour descriptor. Black/raven, blonde, ginger, brunette, etc. When I was a lad I can still remember the switchover.
It's a German fairy tale, so please no cultural appropriation from othe cultures
@@mandowarrior123 I know I know, it was a joke. I do not support in any way race swapping
@@Gabi_Citterio The snow is framed by the window frame, just as the face is framed by the hair, at least when you have long hair. The red is the blush on the cheeks or at least a healthy color of those that are active. Besides, it was a German queen. Last I looked, people here in Germany back then weren't really black. I also don't think a German queen would have born a black child, at best a mixed race. But knowing the intermarriage of noble houses up to fairly recently and looking at the skin color of all European noble houses, there isn't much black in there either.
So, yes, the Grimm brothers and everyone else in Germany reading this folk tale would have gotten no wrong ideas and Snow White would be white and Germanic.
What about cultural "ownership?" To me, The Little Mermaid is a Danish story. My first introduction to it was Disney's 1989 adaptation (of course). As a child, I didn't know what a Dane looked like. I don't even recall associating them with Vikings. But, as a child, I imagined them being fair skinned like Ariel and Prince Eric. I eventually read the works of and learned about Hans Christian Andersen in high school and university. As an adult, in my mind, "the Little Mermaid" is Danish. It's not so much Ariel, the Disney character, but a character and a story of Danish culture. She is so significant to the Danish people that there is a statue of Den lille Havfrue in the harbour of Copenhagen. I think Disney took a good approach to her depiction in their 1989 adaptation. There are stories that her hair colour was made red to differentiate her from the blonde mermaid depicted by Daryl Hannah in the Touchstone (Disney) 1984 film, Splash. In my mind, I also associate Vikings with red hair. I'm sure the Disney animators had that in mind. I think what confuses audiences the most about the location of "the Kingdom of Atlantica" is Sabastian the crab. He's obviously meant to represent a Caribbean character. But, he is the only "Caribbean" character in the film. I imagine Atlantica being in the middle of the Atlantic, halfway between the Caribbean and Europe. It seems plausible that King Triton's court would consist of sea creatures from all over the Atlantic ocean, including the Caribbean, but not exclusive to the Caribbean. And being centrally located, Ariel could easily come ashore along the coast of Denmark, Bermuda, Jamaica, the Bay of Biscay, Dover, Cap-Vert, or even Newfoundland or Brasil. But, if I had to guess I would place "Prince Eric's castle" in a port city like La Rochelle and not actually Copenhagen. The Chef is obviously "French" and has an appreciation for seafood. But, Eric doesn't appear to be French. Nor does his guardian/advisor, Grimsby who is obviously English. Disney's inspiration for Eric's seaside castle was Chateau de Chillon on Lake Geneva in Switzerland (far from the Atlantic). Clearly, Disney intended for the setting to be ambiguous to appeal to a global (predominantly US) audience. (We all know that American viewers can't associate with characters living in Toronto, so a TV show or movie has to be set in Chicago or even Minneapolis over Toronto, even if it's filmed in Toronto.) But, in my mind, Eric is likely a prince of the Kingdom of Denmark. And while "his castle" isn't in Copenhagen, he probably resided in a French chateau on the Bay of Biscay for the duration of the 1989 film (even though the Danish royal family owns Chateau de Cayx in the South of France, far from the coast).
On cultural ownership, though. I'm Anishinabe. The Anishinabek are one of those "underrepresented visible ethnic/racial minorities" in Hollywood. I don't particularly identify with Pocahontas, but Aladdin and The Little Mermaid were my two favourites in my childhood. I eventually came to appreciate Sleeping Beauty, Robin Hood, The Jungle Book, Treasure Planet and Atlantis: The Lost Empire as well. None of them feature Indigenous characters, but that's not why I'd like a film or story. In more recent years, I identified with the deity of Maui in Moana because of his similarity to Nanibijou in my culture, the ofrenda practice in Coco and even the vaguely "Sami" folklore and politics in Frozen II. I appreciate seeing Indigenous characters and actors in TV and film, but I don't seek them out. I don't need to see "Anishinabe" Ariel to identify with The Little Mermaid. I would only want an Indigenous actress to portray Ariel if she resembled Ariel or at least passed for Danish (Anishinabek aren't especially dark in complexion). A few years ago, Stumptown was adapted for TV and was broadcasted on ABC for one season. I immediately loved the series. Half of the cast consisted of Indigenous characters in and around Portland, Oregon. The entire first season revolved around a lost character, Benjamin Blackbird. Blackbird was Indigenous and when he was finally depicted on screen at the end of the season, he was depicted by an Italian-Korean actor. I was disappointed. Sure, the actor was handsome. Hot, even. But, all of the other Indigenous characters were played by Indigenous actors, including Tantoo Cardinal, as Sue Lyn Blackbird. Based on my opinion of an Indigenous actress playing Ariel, I obviously have a double standard when it comes to the depiction of Indigenous characters. Is it racist? Or is it a desire for greater, "authentic" representation? An Italian-Korean actor depicting an Indigenous character in a contemporary TV drama is one thing, but if Indigenous folklore (like Nanibijou or Haiwatha) were depicted by non-Indigenous actors or if the stories were "reimagined" as black or white, I'd be likely be quite bitter, angry even. So, if can feel so strongly about my own culture and folklore, shouldn't I have empathy for Danish and other creators of fiction and folklore?
I think The Wizard of Oz and The Wiz is a good example of a racialised adaption done well. The Wizard of Oz, as originally written and then adapted to film in 1939 by MGM featured a "white" Dorothy from rural Kansas. And in the 1978 film The Wiz, the characters were black in an urban setting. They didn't set it in rural Kansas. They didn't set it in the past. They made it contemporary and most importantly, they named it The Wiz. Unlike Disney, with their 2023 adaptation, the makers of The Wiz didn't "blackwash" the story. They racially adapted it and further differentiated it from the source material by giving it a new name. Why can't Disney take a similar approach? And if Disney truly wanted to be "diverse" and "inclusive" they would have adapted the African folklore of Mami Wata to film and cast Halle Bailey as the titular African mermaid character.
If a fictional character is written as Chinese and he is turned white in a later adaptation, there is an implication that the Chinese features needed to be "corrected." The same principle applies if he roles are reversed. The argument "your reluctance to accept the new portrayal of the character implies bigotry" also implies that the change in portrayal was rooted in bigotry.
true, Thou i think more people need to actually know that despite the overwhelming majority of the han Chinese, china in itself is home to 56 ethnic groups which would have varying attires, cultures and honestly even Facial features. But yes if the character is written to be Chinese the character should at least be one of the 56 ethnic groups.
Well said. What additionally bothers me in regard to blatant race (and gender) swapping in fiction, is the disrespect it shows towards the authors and how they imagined their characters.
@@jackjones4824 No, because it is not done for the sake of turning them into vegetables, but to make the life lessons taught in biblical stories more digestible for children... it also does not try to shoehorn in personal or political ideologies by doing so.
Do you know a reason to make Aragorn, Belle, or Snow White black? Do you apply that reason equally to argue for making Blade, or Black Panther, or Joe Gardner (Soul), white?
@@jackjones4824 In my response, I clearly stated that Veggie Tales does have a sensible a reason to turn biblical characters into vegetables -- to make it appropriate, and the lessons it teaches digestible, for its target audience of young children.
Nonetheless, I do mostly agree with your second paragraph.
As a counter-example to what many modern remakes do (especially live-action ones), I'd like to also point out "The Princess and the Frog" (the Disney movie). I personally find that to be a brilliant, romanticized, re-imagining of the original. They changed premise of the story with a fun twist, modified the story, pulled it into Orleans, gave it soul, and made the entire thing match in style, while reflecting the time and location it is set in. That is what I consider a brilliant re-imagining of a classic fairytale, not just a re-make.
However, they've announced a Snow White live action re-make. If we're re-telling an original story, why can't we stay true to that original imagining of it? As you said, the changes we've seen so far don't appear to have any bearing on the story itself. So why spit on the author's imagining of it?
And even if there is a brilliant twist in this particular plot to justify deviating from the well-known original, what could it possibly bring to even that modified story to represent the dwarves as a variety of ethnicities and genders?
To be very clear, the reason this change troubles me is not because they swapped out the classic European dwarf in this particular movie, but because it has become a trend across movies in general, and is now spilling into re-tellings of popular fairytales. For no apparent reason, every story HAS to have a strong woman with incredible combat skills, at least three different ethnicities in leading roles, ideally a homosexual couple, etc. regardless of whether or not it makes sense in the setting (including the era) of the story.
That, combined with the current political and social climate I observe in western nations, leads me to believe that this trend is motivated by personal and political ideologies, or maybe a fear of harassment over not bowing to those ideologies, rather than a genuine desire to tell a good story.
Furthermore, the problem with intentionally and continuously putting emphasis on changing popular characters to the "right" skin color (in your opinion), is that you're implying that there are "wrong" skin colors, and demonstrating your own personal bias to be acceptable and superior to how the author imagined it.
And the above is what makes me react adversely to this movie, among others, and choose to not show my support.
I never argued that any movie in itself would or could not be good as a result of changing key elements.
@@jackjones4824 You don't understand, Bible is different. Let's take the example of Mary, Mary has been portrayed as white, as black, as Chinese, you can portray her as whatever ethnicity you want, why? Because the believers are supposed to relate to these characters and see them as the race they are used to seeing. Such Biblical characters like Jesus or Mary, or possibly also some other characters are supposed to be the everyman.
The characters in Snow White are not the same, they are not the everyman, they are a concrete vision some author had.
Also, is your point some kind of deluded "Race doesn't matter at all"? Races are not fungible to people, people very much notice race, it's one of the first things they notice. Case in point my Biblical example above. Therefore that means that swapping races is one of the most jarring changes you can make to some story, compared to how it was envisioned by the author.
"What additionally bothers me in regard to [blatant] race [and gender] swapping in fiction, is the disrespect it shows towards the authors and how they imagined their characters."
That is my original statement, with a few clarifying words, which I will promptly amend. I am not going around, pointing my finger at every movie, and condemning it for any little change. As in both my previous responses, re-imagining or re-telling or any changes in themselves do not bother me. A well-told story is a well-told story.
I am bothered by the current trend of [blatant] race (and gender) swapping, which does very often lie in dissonance with the time and setting and action of the story being told, and which is usually done without any apparent justification within the storyline, and which cannot be attributed to limitations in the production of the movie, becoming a requirement for publication.
That, and I stand to my opinion until convinced otherwise, is disrespectful first and foremost to the author.
I, as a potential viewer, also feel disrespected by what I perceive as a pandering and often lazy approach to storytelling, but have the choice simply not to support a movie I suspect of such behavior.
@@anni.68 That's not the only change. Her goal in the fairy tale is to gain a soul because mermaids don't have that and she'll need to marry the human she loves to get one. When she dies after refusing to kill her prince and his bride, she turns into seafoam, but the story doesn't end there. She joins the daughters of the air and gets the opportunity to still get her soul by providing the service of providing cooling breezes. When she comes across children who are good, it will take one year of the time she has to serve to get her soul. While the fairy tale teaches us about doing the right thing (like not killing the man you love), chasing your dreams (although they may fail), another moral of the original fairy tale is "be good kids, you'll help the lovely mermaid get her soul".
The simple fact is, paying people to come up with new settings and new characters in new stories seems to be beyond someone with as deep a pockets as Disney, maybe this is what we should be questioning.
Exactly Disney wants to see this stupid "Muh Culture". We need to Ignore those stupid reebots, they cannot keep making them forever.
brilliantly said. We are watching definitions be redefined before our eyes - some claim tolerance yet they are bigots, some claim they are not racist yet their actions demonstrate the opposite, some claim they seek freedom to be themselves yet deny others that same right... strange days we live in.
The woke are the most racist, sexist and intolerant.
Just so.
Fortunately just because a group claim a change in a definition, doesnt make it so. It is ridiculous and they are delusional. Hold the line.
@LairdJ56
Exactly.
They arbitrarily change the definition of words according to their ideology and think we must comply.
They are demented weasels.
It's only going to get worse. The persecution the native European population will face in the near future will make previous atrocities look like childsplay
As a place-skinned redhead growing up in the 80s and 90s, bullied for skin and red hair it was awesome that Ariel was pale-skinned with red hair! It was very underrepresented before Julia Roberts became famous!
Well your opinion just perpetuates the problem- although ❤
I understand it and agree with it-
but now you understand the black persons problem with all white casts. And, according to your comment, at least you SHOULD.
Nothing to see here folks, no opinions either way, just stating facts.😊
@@NotThisShipSister1So all redheads should be replaced by black people? Black people already have way more characters than redheads do
When the new Ariel was being revealed, Black girls were shown the character and encouraged to celebrate. My thought was, what about the red-haired, pale-skinned, blue-eyed girls? What are they meant to think or feel?
@@OvalRock Those poor red-haired, pale-skinned blue eyed girls! They are now traumatized for life! Ahah. As a 39 year old man, I think it's disturbing how people, particularly ADULTS, are susceptible to shit like "how the modern little fucking mermaid looks like." LOL. But it's hilarious through a computer screen. Just don't want those decadent freaks near me.
Same issue. By that measure some moron in the UK about 12 years ago decided redhead jokes on greeting cards were offensive and tried to have them banned. It didn't work (thankfully)
Seems to be a thing where liberals pick and choose which minority is offended and which isn't based on their own feelings or usually racist tendencies rather than any reality based offense. It's racist progressives that believe in the fragility of black people to the point of bending rules and pandering to them rather than conservatives who regard a hard working non white person as just as worthy of their achievements than anyone else.
There is absolutely no real need for swapping because you can always just make a new story . Snow white is a perfect example too , snow white isn't snow white , the dwarves aren't dwarves, there is no prince charming. Everything is changed so they could easily make a brand new princess , with a new story. The problem is the studios have gotten seriously lazy and greedy
@jackjones4824 The point of Veggie Tales is that all the characters are vegetables (because that's cheaper to animate than humans).
The variety of vegetable they are also has no correlation to ethnicity. If it did and the Biblical characters weren't represented as Middle Eastern coded vegetables you might have a point.
@jackjones4824 WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!! Ya telling me...Goliath was not a giant cucumber?!?! My life is a lie!!!
@jackjones4824 How you could your point about race-swapping characters not being a problem because it's done in Veggie Tales possibly "still stand" when you yourself would concede that the vegetables the characters were portrayed as do not correspond to race?
@jackjones4824 I see. You seem to have overlooked an important reason why people wouldn’t care in the case of changing to non-human characters though. Non-humans do not have human ethnicities.
So a tomato (or whatever, I haven’t watched Veggie Tales) portraying Jesus *isn’t* portraying Jesus as not being a Levantine Jew. However a Latina portraying Snow White *is* portraying Snow White as not being a Northern European.
@jackjones4824 you have no clue what a race swap is my friend is what the problem is. Your examples are allegories not race swaps . In the lion the the witch and wardrobe is an allegory for Jesus . That doesn't mean they swapped a human for a lion . A race swap would be if they took aslan and made him a fly instead of a lion . Race swaps can mess with the stories it depends on the world they are based in . Veggie tales is in based in a world where veggies are sentient so it makes sense.
Take rings of power Arondir, all other elves are written as being fair skin and long hair and ethereal glow . Arondir doesn't have fair skin and he actually has short hair ( don't know where he plugged in the electric clippers to get that hair in a time with no electricity) and he isn't ethereal. So it is no where near anything Tolkien wrote about . Now Amazon could have easily made it's own unique fantasy and made all the elves black wouldn't have mattered because you create the rules when you create the world . Veggie tales when the creators created it they created a world where veggies are sentient. It isn't a race swapped anything it is it's own thing it may be based on something else but it isn't that something else.
We black people have our own stories and mythologies. As well as being lazy, race swapping reveals Hollywood's lack of interest in actually investing in diversity. This is just a cosmetic issue, which is superficial.
Imagine if all this ends up having them create actual new characters with original stories ! We can dream right ?
haha that's hard they are not going to do that
Yes dream
as seen by Super Drag and Q-Force, its absolutely not a guarantee of seeing any quality
With all the changes they did to The Little Mermaid, they should just have done that. Most movies weren't a big franchise until they became one through good writing and acting, so the "we need a big name" shit doesn't really count. Also lets not forget that The Little Mermaid is a danish story - how much danish representation do you see in media? Oh wait white is a race, every white person in Europe is basically the same (someone should've told Putin)
I didn't mind the skin tone of the actress but the lore is simply not theirs, it felt disconnected and forced. At least I did have a good laugh when they tried to make it kids-friendly by explaining that King Triton only had one wife yet a dozen of daughters from different ethnicities - I wish I would've met that mother, she must've been a rainbow fish
It's a beautiful dream, I agree. But doing that would require hard work and higher intelligence levels, and creativity.
The swap in the little mermaid really got to me.
I grew up 40 minutes from where the book was written and grew up reading the original story long before I saw the Disney version.
I remember being so disappointed in the shift of tone in the movie compared to the book, but I could UNDERSTAND that the book is quite dark for some children.
I was gutted when I heard about the live action race swap. I had been hoping for sooooo many years for Disney to make the story justice. Denmark, where the book was written, has a majority of white people. I grew up KNOWING that the little mermaid was definitely white - there was no other possibility.
But sure, let's erase my childhood hopes to pacify some i****s in the USA.
(And btw, I'm still hoping and waiting for stories from Africa to be made into movies, I grew up reading some of those as well and have yet to hear anything about it)
Everything that could be said, you have said it. At least it seems like many more of us agree about this than disagree. There still is no way to tell because these people don't engage in fair conversation.
You're not getting why they race swap. It's not to pacify someone. It's to make viewers of minorities identify with figures of majorities to make more money, because they stories of majorities attract more viewers in general.
Really this shouldn't get to you in the way that it does. Be mad at the companies, led by mighty managers pushing these woke agendas to make more money.
Yeah it's sad eh ... to me it says to the race swapped race "your stories aren't good enough to make an original movie we believe will make money so here's one from another culture for you." That's pretty disgusting if you ask me. It's saying those stories aren't important... only European ones
" stories from Africa" such as....?
@@joshmoonXYcontact the South African department of Arts and Culture. There are whole storybooks. You speak as though Africans did not know what a story was until an American corporation enlightened them.
Here is a point. “The Shawshank Redemption” film the character Red was originally of Irish decent with red hair in the book. There is even a joke in the film where he is asked while they call him Red, and he responds with a joke, “It’s because I’m Irish.” Or along those lines. Most people have likely not read the original story including myself. I can’t imagine Red not being Morgan Freeman.
Ford Prefect from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy also had red hair in the books. I honestly can't imagine him as anything other than a black guy and I've read the books more often than I've seen the movie.
I think when translating characters from a book it's way easier to go by unnoticed because they didn't visually exist before an adaptation. But characters that were created with a certain look and have been that way for decades it's more jarring to see someone that doesn't look the same.
I have come back to this video to refresh myself on the points you've made on this topic. With the release of the Disney+ series adaptation of Percy Jackson and the Olympians, even though I have heard mostly good things about this series and it sounds like they are sticking pretty closely to the source material, I cannot look past the casting. They didn't even cast someone with Percy Jackson's hair and eye color! I put official artwork based off descriptions in the books next to the pictures of the actor and I do not see the same character. It is harder to point out the miscasting of the other characters because it is clearly race swapping but most people I am around do not understand the problem there and it is hard to explain that. Maybe I will use your point about Blade and apply it to Black Panther, a much-beloved character today, and see if they understand my point then. Thanks again for the super helpful videos!
A good 'blackwashed' fictional story imo would be Disney's The Princess and the Frog because it does not copy paste the original princess and the frog, but instead took inspiration from it and wrote its own story with different characters and in a different setting. If they made a live action version with everything else unchanged except that Tiana and Navi are white then of course I would get mad because that's not how they were in the animated film.
The film is so much deeper as well! Tiana and Charlotte are both well developed, Charlotte in particular CANNOT see Tiana for her color. Sure she grew up in a rich family and is spoiled, but she has a great heart. Growing up WITH Tiana meant she saw Tiana for who she is and defends her REGARDLESS of how much less income she has. The interactions themselves dont feel artificial or forced. Charlotte is the person we should strive to be, and Tiana is the proper representation we needed.
Or Tarzan - they should do that one 😂
Can't wait to see them cast Michael Cera as the next Black Panther
Nah man Ryan Gosling. He's LITERALLY MEEeeee!!
More like Michael Dorn. ( from Star Trek).
@@Sound557 Ryan Gosling should be Howard the Duck.
(Sorry, that was a fowl pun. I was almost too chicken to pullet...)
lol Michael Cera
I’d watch that, still haven’t watched either black panther movie
LARPing is a bit different because it's not pretending to make a canon claim to what a character is or isn't, and a group of LARPers usually has a much more limited racial pool than the general population of the world. In other words, if a white guy is pretending to be Goku, it's not the same as a company which is authorized to say what is official lore making him white.
I'm always down for a dedicated Tolkien video! 😌 Hope you'll make one in the future!
Although when it comes to Tolkien's Elves, I have my own answer already. Tolkien crafted his world very carefully, so to me fidelity to his work is important. And in Tolkien's created universe there simply aren't any black Elves. Tolkien's "Dark Elves" aren't called dark because of the colour of their skin, rather they have never lived in the light of Valinor and that's why they're called "dark". Based on the descriptions that we have, none of the Elves were anything but white/pale.
We cannot actually say for sure whether or not there are any dark-skinned elves.
We know that the Sindar, Noldor, and especially Vanyar elves were extremely fair skinned, but Tolkien never gives any physical description of Avari elves.
In the published Silmarillion version, there were originally only 3 lineages of elves. In that version all the Avari were originally of the same race as the ancestors of the Noldor and Telerin elves, and would presumably be similarly pale. However, Tolkien did write alternate versions were there were originally 5 clans of elves, two of which never had any members go to Valinor. One of those was led by an elf named Morwe, which literally means "Black Person." That is probably figurative, as the root "mor" is often used to describe things as evil, but he could also have just had dark skin.
Tolkien often describes Orcs as having either black or sallow yellowish skin and mongoloid facial features, and he says (in most versions) that the Orcs are descended from corrupted Avari elves, so it is possible that those traits were phenotypes inherited from some lineages of elves who never made it to Valinor.
The Nandor Wood Elves are described as a mixed race, as they descend from Telerin elves who turned back and then interbred with some Avari elves. The rulers of Mirkwood were pale Sindar elves, but the people they ruled over could have a range of skin tones like the people of the Mediterranean or Latin America for all we know.
He was an English writer where native people are white.
@@magister343
*Morish people wether they are Fictional or not are Dark skinned!*
I would have NO problems with a certain type (the Avari as you mentioned, say) being actually Black. Problem is the ridiculous way RoP did the casting. Just random 🤬. Same with Wheels of Time - the books were extremely diverse with well-thought out cultures & races - & the idiotic casting just ignored that 🤬
@@magister343 You are doing a lot of guesswork here. Whenever Tolkien described the Elves, they were white. If they had been black, he would have mentioned such a remarkable difference. You can say "we cannot know because he didn't describe this one thought that he had for a time", but that's your headcanon, not what Tolkien wrote. I'm going based on what Tolkien wrote, not what I may hope he could have written but which is unlikely.
The argument for Morwë is useless, because it uses the same root as Moriquendi, which we already have established to NOT mean that it meant the dark elves where black. Same goes for a name likr Morwen, we know Morwen didn't have black skin. That's twice the word môr used for people, and both times it's not refering to skin colour. Why pretend it's an indicator when it's clearly not?
Using the Orcs is also useless, because the decent from corrupted Avari is not "most versions" - there are just as many if not more instances where Orcs are corrupted Men. Nor would it matter, because the Orcs are different enough to the Elves in their description that something like skin colour wouldn't necessarily be an inherited trait.
Again, you are filling small corners with your wishes. Which is fine, but if we go by Tolkien's words there is no indication for the fulfilment of your wishes, nor is it very likely based on everything else he wrote.
In the case of Harry from Harad, Tolkien very much so told a translator who was translating The Lord of the Rings that he would not allow any changes be made because he had spent years detailing the story and creating the world as he wanted it to be and he would not allow a translator who'd spent a few months at most translating the work to make changes so his carefully crafted mythos. As such, changing Aragorn into a Haradrim raider (Haradrim being Southrons coming in that skintone) would have lead to Tolkien prompty telling the object trying to alter his world to either make it as he wrote it or not make it at all. It's not a racist argument to reiterate the author's own stance on how he wants his work, his legacy to be portrayed. So yeah personally I have taken an extremely hardline stance against Lawd o da Rangz (I refuse to call this abomination Lord of the Rings) because it goes against what Tolkien would have wanted, it shows the hubris of a morally deficient American company.
LotR Elves are 'fair skinned', if they want darker skinned elves they'd have to resort to D&D or even World of Warcraft (Night Elves are purple) as examples. But the wretches who change the skintones of these characters don't care about the established lore and setting of such things. They just see the setting as vehicle to spew their vile propaganda about their ideology. And in my honest opinion, such things should be denounced, shunned and reviled. The Lord of the Rings is not some sports car brand that you can spray paint to suit your tastes, it is a story, a mythos, a world created by one man's passion for his homeland of England. The closest thing I can equate this to is the Anne Boleyn fiasco, while one is fiction and the other is historical both change the fact remains that both were changed to suit the propaganda spewed forth by the Woke death cult.
People call my view racist, but tbh in this day and age when everything is racist or "German WOII guys" that has no weight anymore. If anything, taking flak means I'm over the target. Feel free to critique my stance; I welcome fair discourse on the topic.
Night elves are cool. I like them.
I agree with your stance. I wouldn't mind the slightest if they created a new movie in another universe, there can be countless black elves then.
Night elves have their name cause of their colour so thats fine
The problem is that normal elves like in lotr are described as white and pure beings (not to be racist but you cannot accociate the colour black wth purity that just doesnt work) and making elves black would defy what they are supposed to be.
So if you made the ninja turtles Knights that would be bullsh*t because theyre meant to be ninja
@bonefetcherbrimley7740
@@motixdiabolic8792 Makes sense to me, black elves just don't work within Tolkien's world. Where as they would work within Azeroth, because its different.
Also, night elves are called night elves because they are largely nocturnal. Fun fact:D
"Snow White and the seven genders" I sprayed coffee everywhere when you dropped that one 😂
Maybe black flower, she was called Snow White because of her very light skin
@@shweshwa9202it’s a German fairy tale. As a German I can’t stand Hollywood taking our culture and bastardizing it.
Careful, it's not a good thing to give them ideas, they will even do it :S
@@canemcaveI wouldn't mind if Disney created a new African character who lives in Africa for their cartoons. If the character development is done well and makes sense, I would watch it and relate to it. You can empathize with anyone and anything if you care about the story instead of their skin color or origin. That's the power of storytelling and cinema, but Americans forgot about that and now it's just politics, agenda and ideology. I related to WALL-E, Buscapé (in the City of God, Brazilian movie), Nemo, etc., despite not being a robot, a child, black, Brazilian, or a fish.
I call them off white and the seven creatures.
These are the same people who cancelled a Hawaian actress to stop her playing a Hawaian character because she wasn't Hawian ENOUGH!
Make it make sense!
I would totally watch a video talking about the subject of Tolkien, because of the fact that the show rings of power is totally going outside the source material.
Tolkien does mention Haradrim that live south of Gondor and often are allied with Mordor and they are dark-skinned. They are also courageous fighters that held their ground when their orcish allies broke and fled.
@@vksasdgaming9472 There is no Haradrim depicted in Rings of Power so your comment is irrelevant? Noone is saying that there isn't black people in Middle-Earth, it is that there are no black elves in Middle-Earth.
As you said, Haradrim have been established as being dark skinned, similar to Sub Sahara Africa/Middle Eastern people. Yet instead of using them as a means to add diversity to the show they instead choose to raceswap an elf that makes no canonical sense.
This is why I won't watch it, as a lover of Tolkien's work I think I'd find it far too frustrating to watch such an incredible and intricate story changed.
The funny thing about the “I can’t identify with a character that doesn’t look like me,” is that they don’t care that by their logic, I can no longer a identity with the characters they’re race swapping.
They do care that you can't. That's the point. They want to take something from you and make it for themselves.
Well, most people can’t identify with Ariel because she’s a mermaid and we simply are not. 🫢😆🙃❤️ I love Ariel.
Race swapping is bullshit
Very well said once again. I honestly wish I could make my points as well as this.
The only part I’m not sure about is showcasing content from The Mythology Guy. That dude always rubbed me the wrong way.
But seriously I was very happy to see that. Thank you
😂 thanks man I appreciate 🙏🏻 you do a great job yourself.
I must say when I see the costume they have put live action snow white in, and the "dwarfs".... it looks like my local theatre group who has put together their own little play, and everybody in the group participates, and the mothers and aunts have made the costumes themselves. It looks like craft-hour and home-made. And the reason WHY i say that is because I belonged to a local theatre group when i was a kid. I 50% African, and i look nothing like white snow, but I played Snow White. I was the only girl with hair as black as ebony, and there was no room in the budget to but a black wig for any of the other blonde girls. I remember I wore a 30$ snow white costume from the toy store, and it looks like the live action snow white is doing the same.
This actually does bring up one more aspect to race swapped tales, being plays. Which as far as I'm concerned isn't a problem because it's generally local, and the theatre stage is a place that often fiddles about with classics to breathe new life or tell alternate tales. So stage folk, make whatever weird fanfic variants of stories you want, only a select few will likely ever see it anyway, and if no one is interested in your "new story" then sucks to be you, your writing sucks
the pics are of stand ins not the actual actors
I fully agree with your position on this matter; I just want historical and fictional characters to be respected as they are described in their respective literary sources, I just want to see things that are as close as possible to how they really were (if it can be supported by reliable archaeological evidence, better) or how they were written by the authors who created their worlds. As a Hispanic American, I'm not interested in the characters I admire look like how I see myself, I don't care because skin color has nothing to do with what they represent to me, stop changing things for cheap excuses, it's what I and most rational people want. =/
Sure, but, how else will Hollywood make a quick buck?
@@D.v1dL33 You say it like it's impossible to make movies that are halfway inspired by reality, they've done it before, why can't they do it now? They don't have to make perfect movies, but as long as they strive to keep the characters the way they should be, it's great.
@ because that takes effort and risk.
@@annabellethepitty And do you think that's why what I think should be discredited? Or do you see that as an excuse for not doing something fairly well? you make it look as if there have been no profitable historical films in the two centuries of existence of that industry, cheap excuses.
There's nothing inherently rational about that, that's just a personal preference. Historical, sure, for the sake of accurate history. But fictional? Are you really arguing that people aren't allowed to put their own spins on stories? That the only versions of stories people should retell are the ones most faithful to the first version of that story back when it was first invented?
Or is that faithfulness only important for skin colour?
I remember a few years ago when the color of the character didn't really matter. The important thing was that the story and the characters were cool, compelling, interesting. To this day characters like Peter Parker are massively popular and beloved by people all all ethinicities. Shit, here in Brazil Goku is a fan favorite across the board and nobody is fixated on his skin tone, or the fact he's an alien. I, too, didn't care much about characters being raceswapped up to a few years ago, but it was after that trend of "whitewashing" started, and after the accusations of racism and bigotry started to fly around like bullets in a warzone, that I got to step back and think things through. After all, we're constantly requested to justify why we want X character to stay the way we remember them.
These people made it about race.
As a fan of older Star Trek I truly appreciate that Patric Steward didn’t got replaced by Avery Brooks but instead both of them got own stories and we got 2 great, fully developed characters instead of altering background story to fit new actor.
Also, one of the reasons Sisco ended up such a great character is he wasn't imagined as - hey, let's have a black captain and make his entire character about his skin color. Instead, Cisco was just a captain with his own complex story and they happened to choose a back actor to play him because Avery Brooks happened to be the best at audition. As the story progressed, and the actor was black, little by little they added up racial/cultural elements to enrichen the character - like him being from Louisiana, jazz, baseball, Creole culture etc. But those were just additions, not his main points. He was a full, complete person and character even without it. The same goes for Ripley from Alien. She wasn't made as a 'female' character, the character was made without particular gender in mind. It just happened that Sigourney Weaver kicked ass and got the role.
@@pushingdaisies954 star trek pioneered inclusivity and in a good way. I never ever had a single tought as a kid why someone is asian or black in the series. It felt natural and still feels.
@@pushingdaisies954 Thank you. This cannot be overstated. Skin color, sexual orientation, or sex should not be a characters defining characteristic. I dont care that a character is gay, but give them depth or conflict or backstory. Im so tired of 1 dimensional characters in movies these days.
In this vein I think Sir Terry Pratchett put it really plainly in the open in his early books "Skin color does not matter when there are actual different races to compete with. "
@@pushingdaisies954 I saw a video where Avery Brooks told someone that he does not know how to play a black captain, but he knows how to play a captain who happens to be black.
A comment I recall about the real person Cleopatra can apply here. In your video, you had said that there is not a "need" for her to be white, but instead a desire for her to "look Greek" because she was Greek. With Aragorn, and other LoTR characters, Tolkien wrote a mythology for England, with some of it inspired by Nordic mythology (especially the Finnish Kalevala). Hobbits and the Shire were inspired by his nostalgia of English gardens. So I would prefer to see characters such as Aragorn and Hobbits look English, and Elves to look Nordic. Gandalf has inspiration from Merlin (British) and Odin when he disguised himself as a traveler or wanderer (Nordic). So I expect Gandalf to look either English or Nordic, maybe even a little of both.
If characters are described as different from the norm, such as Esmeralda in Hunchback of Notre Dame, then I would expect them to look accordingly. So for example, it would be equally silly to make Esmeralda look Finnish, Chinese, Greek, or sub-Saharan. She is described as "French Roma" so I would expect her to look French, Romani, or a combo of both.
A similar "race swap" was done with Orpheus in one of the Greek mythology movies. I was not bothered by it, but thought it a bit odd because Orpheus was Thracian. I enjoyed a retelling of the myth in the movie "Black Orpheus" set in 20th century Brazil in fairness. In context of being one of the Argonauts in ancient Greece, it just seemed out of place to me.
Also Ariel was a big step for its time, because before her, there were no Disney Princesses or Disney heroines with red hair. As someone who comes from a family tree loaded with red-haired people (and now a husband who had red-brown hair when he was young), I notice these things.
Don't bother trying to suggest to anyone that positive ginger representation is actually kind of rare. They'll just tell you that you get represented all the time and brush their hands of it. So, maybe red-heads get locked into leprechaun, fool, sex object, or marketing tool? Somebody else doesn't get any rep at all! After all, when someone breaks an arm, we tell them to suck it up because there are other people who have had limbs amputated, right? That's how it works? The worst time one person can have erases every other form of hurt leading up to that, right? That's why anytime someone gets a terrible cold, we aggressively remind them it's not cancer and it aaaaaaalllll makes sense and suddenly that person with a bad cold is, in fact, no longer suffering at all! (This point does not go over well, you'll still be racist somehow because they think all ginger people are white. Which is racist. Because they're really not, lmao.)
Book Esmeralda (spoiler) was not Roma by birth.
@@skyintatters Yeah I read the book and it says that her mother is French. The father is unknown though. The book just says her mother became a prostitute after an affair with a nobleman. Esmeralda is still considered a Gypsy in the story because of how she was raised and there are light-skinned Romani people, but it would still be silly to try to make her look like anything beyond French or (light-skinned) Romani.
@@YourWaywardDestiny I forgot to mention Quasimodo is red-haired in the original novel so I do scratch my noggin trying to figure out how a Romani baby got red hair. Or maybe he is not Romani any more than Esmeralda is a blonde Swede. I don't know. That one is a mystery on how and why a Gypsy tribe had him in the first place when they did the infamous baby switch.
@@Enki1013 Well, I did say it's racist to assume all red heads are white. It's really not out of the realm of possible that this French Romani would come out with ginger hair.
I love how much brilliance and effort you put into this Metatron. Only one problem, the enemy doesn't operate on logic.
thats the achilles heel of these people. their arguments are based on emotion, and emotions burn out over time, but logic is what stability is built on. i feel its this point, that we outlast them in the long run.
@nickfry7839 Very true. That said, I find it a waste of time and effort dealing with their nonsense. Therefore, I typically prefer to ignore them and support those who see reason.
@@jessegitchell8114 i wish i was like you, but i love arguing and youtube is a big playground of arguing. plus, arguing with them helps me realize my own thoughts and ideals better, and i also improve my articulation on these subjects better. i sway people here from time-time as well.
The... enemy?
Are we still talking about disagreements over depictions of fictional characters, or a war? Go touch grass, ffs.
@nickfry7839 Well said. It's not a total loss to try, and testing your own positions will certainly make you stronger. I just believe that our energy is better spent on living true and successful lives. We will outlast them.
Thank you for having the courage and common sense to make this video.
Metatron is fast becoming a treasure. Lets support him and protect him… we need these voices around for a long time.
YES,IT IS WRONG. It is unnecesary most of the time. And it obeys stupidity.
It's never "necessary".
it obeys identitarianism.
@@bigguy7353 Exactly
@@mk-el6534 No,is the opposite of it.
@@bigguy7353
I wouldn't go quite that far. There are times where it doesn't take away from the story or there is difficulty in finding someone of the appropriate race, etc. I don't care if a villager in Snow White and the Seven Dwarves is a different race than the original story. It's not necessary to get every single character right. But I do expect Snow White to be white and for dwarves to be short. Those are reasonable minimum requirements in terms of being true to the source material. Likewise, I expect Blade and Black Panther to be black. But I'm likely to be more flexible when it comes to lessor known characters in those same stories. Especially when they are portrayed by extremely talented actors who don't happen to be the correct race. Jason Manoa playing Aquaman wasn't a big problem, for instance.
There's a very simple answer to race swapping of the fictional character.
If you make a significant change - it's just NOT the same piece of art anymore.
If I draw Mona Lisa in a Barbie style - I can't call it Mona Lisa anymore.
I'll call it something else. It's just a completely new piece of art.
And obviously, if I draw it exactly the same - it will be "Mona Lisa copy done by...".
Any and all adaptations are also not the same piece of art so not really a compelling argument there.
These "fictional" stories are actually Folk Lore (or based on) from different countries & cultures around the world and should be respected as such. They need to be left alone and celebrated as such.❤
Well you are right on the part of it being lore from different countries... Literally, many stories began in places as far as the middle east, Russia or china and were later adapted for local audiences, such is the case of snow white
@@alanmichelsandoval8768 if adaptation was more than 50 years ago then it's okay. Otherwise it's plainly wrong.
@@ravinakuwar1407 why 50? why not 10? or 250?
@@alanmichelsandoval8768 Yes, but then it's not Snowwhite, e.g. in Pushkin's version, she is a princess and we don't know her name.
And very often, it weren't seven dwarfs, but seven giants or seven knights.
So, in short, don't call her or the movie Snowwhite, then everything is fine.
Same with Arielle. If it was another name, it would be llike hey, she had kinda the same experience as Arielle.
My guy, Disney’s whole existence is to make bastardised retellings of folktales.
My main gripe with race swapping in fiction definitely stems from a creative view, because it's fiction, why race swap? Just write a new character instead of changing one people already know and love!
I'll never get the "the character NEEDS to be or look like my race in order for kids to identify with them"
When I, as a American of German/Italian heritage, identified with Mulan most of all put of all the Disney princesses. I remember watching the Justice League cartoon as a young kid and I liked batman and the green lantern (John Stewart) character most. I liked them for who they were, I liked them as they were, Asian, black, male, female, didn't bother me, I accepted them as they were.
Also, how is recasting a beloved historical work of fiction not "cultural appropriation" ?
Because you had others to identify with it didn't matter, and Mulan was American coded for you. For every one else around the world...yes it matters. You forget how it feels to be an Arab portrayed as a violent barbarian for all your childhood would make you feel.
@@BatsAndBadgersthat’s nothing compared to how Germans and Russias were portrayed. Always the ultimate villain lol. That partly explains the insanity we see today with Russia and how people act like Russians don’t deserve national
Interests and national security. No they have to be monsters.
@@BatsAndBadgers Aladdin?
More than two years ago, myself, and my coworkers, were totally lampooning woke culture in just a small workshop environment. And the most fervent instigator was a Native-American! He had his tribal ID card, that he called his "race-card" that he would play at any moment! It became a gag in the shop that brought us together, made us laugh, and almost made us enjoy our labors. This ongoing gag would go into the realms of the ridiculous... Like, if you didn't have a specific tool or material on your bench, and asked your coworker for it, the common response was, "Dude... that's totally racist!"
And by the way! Even if Ariel was played by some white actor, and she looked nothing like Ariel from the cartoon, I'd also be disappointed. The whole point of the live-action is to see the cartoon I remember come to LIFE!
@@anni.68 In the books she doesn't have a name to begin with. Ariel is a popular character and people like their popular character to look like they allways have. You don't see a chinese leprachoun or a white guije for a reason.
@@anni.68 That's the tea. It's not an "adaptation". It's a copy of their own movie with changes made exclusively for cookie points. An adaptation woudn't have included the same side characters and scenes that were exclusive to the animated movie.
The original animation is an adaptation, The new one is a mockery to the fans of that same movie.
@@anni.68 It's way more complex that just one or the other. But I can tell you don't want to discuss that, you just want to be right. If you can't understand the issue that your problem.
@@anni.68 No one sayed the color is more important. The thing is that it is no longer the same character. Ariel's skin isn't the only thing they changed, her personality and her story changed too.
@@anni.68 I'm complaning about it. It's not only the color swap that bothers people, is the reason behind the changes. The reason color is the main focus is becouse that's what these people use to shut you up from criticizing them calling you racist and drowning any other complaint you may have. You know they're doing it to avoid any critique and it's gross.
For me it's not about race, it's about how the character looks. Do NOT mess with an iconic character's look, plain and simple. That could mean don't change their skin color, but that could also mean don't give them long hair if they originally had short hair, don't give them glasses if they originally did not need them, don't make them dress like a hipster if they were originally a sharp dresser, etc. It's okay to tweak minor things here and there to keep it fresh, but for god's sake keep it mostly in the same ballpark. If you NEED a black, trans, disabled (or whatever other box you want to tick) character, then make a NEW character. Don't commandeer old ones just for hollow self-validation.
the activists have to use already existing characters and stories. they have to wear the skin of the culturally trusted source of good morals,
because no way would their true message would be accepted. its the wolf wearing sheep's clothing.
@@nickfry7839 In truth, Disney produces these films not only to secure copyrights for the original work but also for new versions, adaptations, and extensions. However, they face a pressing need to race against time to safeguard their rights before they expire. This urgency often compels them to opt more quickly for legacy stories over original ones. With a limited budget for movie production, Disney must carefully consider their choices. Prioritizing legacy stories allows them to tap into a broader and established audience base. Consequently, they might decide to alter the ethnic background of characters to appeal to a diverse audience. It is essential to understand that these changes are not driven by any "woke" culture but rather by a management decision influenced by the company's financial limitations and the need to preserve valuable intellectual property rights.
@@rusedgin retaining the rights is true enough, but they are absolutely woke, and their writers, and staff have absolutely said they are injecting woke propaganda into their product.
Hey, they put her into a cheap Halloween version of the same dress, what more do you want??
And race is then what? Of course, part of the look. These are not "iconic" characters, but characters that are part of a particular race and folkloric tradition. And that's exactly why they're changing their race.
The Aquaman situation was not a problem not only because he is a hero with less fans but also because he looks more like the coolest version of Aquaman only missing the harppon hand, and the actor being partially Native Hawaiian makes very little difference since he looked cool in the role and they didn't use Jason Momoa's race as a shield against criticism the same way they keep doing in these movies.
Moreover, Momoa didn't go out on a social media rant about how his film is a political commentary. That helped out in making people accept him as Aquaman.
@@tkraid2575 Woke is moreso the marketing around media than anything.
@@hijo5966Like star wars, where disney and Lucasfilm said people who hate the sequels a re sexist/racist/bigoted 😂
Absolutely. Peter David's run was my favourite.
Jason Momoa is mostly European and he looks more like an exotic White dude than a "brown" guy. His playing Aquaman wasn't a race swap.
"I'm surprised they didn't call it "Snow White and the seven genders"" What a punchline XD
I'm a bit sad a chill youtuber like you has to get its hands dirty because of the current mass hysteria, but I'm also glad you do it.
Respect and support from France
It's a choice to address these things, he could have just walked away after Cleopatra. Now we have a guy who used to make interesting history content talking about race and gender politics.
Even the changing of fictional characters has many different layers and ways to do it. There are many stories which can be retold in a completely different setting. You take the character archetypes, the main themes of the plot, and put it in a different culture and historical era, and it's fine. Romeo an Juliet's story can be used for a completely different story, where instead of being children of rival medieval noble families, they can be children of rival Japanese Samurai clans, or children of rival Mexican drug cartels, etc. That would be completely fine. It would be a new story, in a new culture, it would merely use some universal character archetypes and themes. There have been many widely accepted adaptations (yes, ADAPTATIONS, not remakes) of the Romeo and Juliet story. And the reason behind these adaptations were not "I find it problematic that they're white, let's change their skin, to be able to virtue signal", the reason was to tell a compelling story in a different setting.
There are many great cases of valuable adaptations. Hey, even the Lion King is basically an adaptation of Hamlet. There are movies which took a medieval tale and put it in a wild west setting, or a modern setting. They are fine.
The problem with remakes like The Little Mermaid and Snow White is that they don't explore or create anything. They don't even use the race-swap to explore new cultural themes, the characters stay the same just with a different look. They don't start with "let's use these character archetypes to explore them in a new setting". It's "I find their race problematic, so let's change it, and accuse anyone who doesn't like it as a racist".
Isn't the difference obvious?
I had mentioned "Black Orpheus" in another post. They did not do any mindless race swapping and keep with ancient Greece. Instead they did a marvelous retelling set in 20th century Brazil. Another I should have mentioned and forgot was "Carmen Jones," with the setting in WWII era United States instead of doing race swapping in 19th century Spain. (I still love the song "Stand Up and Fight" remake, from bull fighter to boxer.)
Years ago, when I was online obsessive Phantom fan, I had stumbled on a Bollywood musical "Rangeela" while channel surfing and loved it. It had me crying at the end and the first thing I blurted out was, "This is like Phantom of the Opera except without any of that heavy handed horror stuff!"
I could talk with you all day, Nandor. Like what Marvel is doing so wrong. Like your stuff and honesty. Or how Galadriel is described in the book. And D&D talk. Great material and thoughts!
With regards to languages I think The Hunt for Red October did it best. It started off with the actors speaking Russian with subtitles, then zooms in and they're speaking English when it zooms back out. Basically it's letting you know that it needs you to imagine they're still speaking Russian.
Also, whenever someone asks me "Why" when I voice complaints about race swapping fictional characters I respond with my own "Why" about why did the writers care enough to do the swap in the first place.
Fictional stories are written by people about events in their area of existence. And since the most popular ones are OLD, and written during a period in Europe where travel was nowhere as easy as it is now, I've always held that race swapping characters from those stories to be tasteless. Especially when other areas have their own folktales that could be adapted to the big screen.
Also the film doesn't pretend you're stupid. They switch back to Russian when the Americans board the Red October.
One of the best examples of using foreign language in an English language production or book was James Clavell's Shogun. In the begining everything in Japanese was followed by English in Italics. By the end of the book everything in Japanese is not followed by a translation and you are able to read it.
It was a great device, yeah! Though as I’ve started to learn Russian, Sean Connery’s accent has become the source of a LOT of unintentional humor. 🤣
Again as usual a perfect, polite, and great rant, Metatron. A video most needed. Thank you. I really hope this video isn't demonitised. At this moment, I find that hope intriguing
Thanks! I appreciate the support
About relating to characters, the film Inside Out makes for a perfect example.
Having moved to a different city during childhood, the film really hit close to home. I wasn't 12 when I moved, I didn't play hockey, I'm not a US citizen, and I sure as sunshine am not a girl, but none of that got in the way of me relating to the protagonist.
I just want to say thank you for your content.
My pleasure
@@metatronytwhen do we get to watch you play the whole pathethique 3rd movement? 😁
Rachel Zegler - who's playing Snow White - has stated she has always hated the story and has said the Prince is a stalker. I'm amazed she hasn't called him a sexual predator and/or pedophile yet for kissing a underage girl while she was asleep.
In the original story the prince rapes Snow White while she is sleeping.
There's also the disgust that comes from knowing they only do these swaps because they want to "lecture" you (and for political reasons).
Snow white doesn't look like a race swap, I didn't even know she was half Colombian (she is possibly darker than the cartoon snow white but has similar features and the evil queen is not way whiter than her)
@travis5732 thats the worst part, because the usually ruin the moral of the story, and put in their horrible attempts at morality. it feels like evil really trying to erase good.
@@alanmichelsandoval8768White as snow. Simple as that. It's not relative like you think.
@@alanmichelsandoval8768 She was fine until she opened her mouth. Those people despise the original movie, but don't have the talent to make something better, so the only thing they can do is to destroy all the meaning the original had.
I’ve just discovered your videos and am so enjoying them. Thank you for so eloquently explaining why so many of the way historical “facts” are told and characters are changed racially to fit a cultural narrative are disrespectful, ignorant, and wrong. You tell the truth without insulting anyone and certainly show respect to everyone regardless of race or creed. Truth and integrity absolutely matter.
I will never feel ashamed or apologize for loving my European heritage. This doesn’t mean I dislike anyone else. It simply means I have self love and respect. Only a weak willed person has a problem with this statement. Thank you Metatron.
Saying all of that and having a Nazi symbol as your profile pic is hilarious 😂
@@brainstormer3938 👍🏻
@@brainstormer3938lol
@@brainstormer3938 these kind of videos always attract weirdos
@@brainstormer3938Where do you see a Nazi symbol? Genuinely curious.
This is so on point! Growing up as a kid in Vietnam, the concept of race wasn't that big of a deal to me. Especially when playing my first video games on the SNES, I just met and accepted those game characters exactly as they were designed. Mario is White, Chun Li is Asian, Balrog is Black, straight forward. And I love them for their iconic designs. In my day playing Mario, if Mario for some reason changed his skin tone, I would think this is some cheap unofficial copy of the game done wrong :))). I would prefer if a new character is created entirely and assigned those attributes by default and stick with them.
I never understood people putting themselves into movie roles. If you make a good character then people will be drawn to them and care what happens to them
I'm mroe insulted by the laziness of race swapping instead of doing your job as a writer so we don't have to steal characters for representation.
I get that too
So you're making it about yourself
@@AntiwhitismIsJealousy So you're a troll
@@Wolf-ln1ml Project moar
@@Wolf-ln1ml Imagine seeing clear AWism and one's response is some novelty take
The biggest offense to _The Little Mermaid,_ is that Disney made a beautiful sad story, a stupid happy ending with no depth. And they made that stupid movie twice.
The irony about Disney's Little Mermaid is that there is canonically a story about a Latina mermaid. It's basically all but forgotten by most, but could have been a win-win; in that it would have attracted new audiences with a new story, as well as being a genuine example of representation done right. But instead, they decided to race-swap Ariel. 🤷
Yep, we need new stories, not (bad) rehashes of old ones. I would love to read and see fantasy based on African, Latin American, Native American, Arabian etc. mythology and stories. There are some based on Asian history (the Poppy War for one) or Slavic (Witcher, the Blood and Bone) but I would be so happy to see more of these stories made into books and movies. And then the cast should represent the setting of the story. But I guess new stories are risky and it’s all about money, so they take previously popular (mostly Western European, or US in the case of comics) things and just mess things up.
Same shit as as Netflix's "Cleopatra was black". With so many incredibly interesting black people that we could learn more about... They decided to paint a white character in blackface, and tell us it's not racist.
@ML-cc7gj @@o0alessandro0o Indeed, exactly the same! Those people who blackwash fictional characters, are the very people who also don't have faith that black history or black fiction are interesting enough to sell.
Given as such, they're as prejudiced towards black people as they are towards the cultures they're replacing. The sheer irony.
Because they're not brave enough or creative enough to actually make something that hasn't been done yet. It's easier to ride on an already successful story and then just race swap it and edit it to fit your political or other ideals.
Latinos don’t need a Latina mermaid. We grew up with Ariel as well.
Man, this thing about "the child need to see a character that is like them to feel motivated and bla bla bla", brother, i watched dragon ball z as a kid and everytime i saw vegeta i was like "literally me" AND IM A WOMAN! Man, the Disney princess that i most see myself in, is Tiana (im white as milk) but her motivations, her way of thinking is the same as mine, that is why i see myself in her.
Also in the Original Snow White, her name came about because the queen pricked her finger on a rose thorn growing by a snowy windowsill, and wished for a child who possessed "Hair black as (coal? night?), skin white as snow, and lips red as blood." And C.J.Cherryh wrote an awesome rethinking of fairy tales as horror stories, the collection titled "...Red As Blood."
black as ebony
I would say keeping fictional character's appearances consistent is important for a couple of reasons:
First being that it makes it easier to identify who you're talking about. If you want to have a discussion having to constantly reitterate which version of a character you're referring to gets confusing very fast.
Second, it adds nothing to them. Making Aragorn black does nothing to improve or adds anything to his character the same way making T'Challa white wouldn't improve or add anything to him.
Third, it matters because without concrete character descriptions what's the point of creating any character in the first place?
Lastly, and this one goes out to all of those who want to claim that "a character isn't their skin color so it's not important": if that were true then why is it so important that the character is now black? If their skin color didn't matter and was so unimportant then what's wrong with leaving them the way they were created?
the stories should be kept as consistant as possible, if they are masterpieces. we want to pass them along to following generations and if keep changing it all the time, we will lose the intial meaning of the story. its like playing telephone, you whisper a phrase along to the person next to you, and eventually its completely different from the initial phrase.
if they are so inspired by the story, they should make a story inspired by it, and make all the changes they want, and let it stand on its own merit.
A character isn't its skin color unless the character is specific to that experience. A white t'challa would be completely against the experience of a specifically black African character fighting to preserve his kingdom and prevent the extraction of resources which is a reference to colonialists talking resources from Africa. Theredore the skin color is specifically glued to that character. With aragon it is completely different. Him being white has nothing to do with his experiences (that doesn't mean I like it it'd just the truth).
@@vegeta6169
Except for the fact that there are white Africans so a white Black Panther isn't out of the realm of possibility.
Edit: as for Aragorn, in a way it does matter because of the region of Middle Earth he was born in. If he were born in a region where darker skinned people were more common then he wouldn't be the heir of Gondor.
@@vegeta6169 oh ok, so aragorn is based on english mythology, but because he is white, he isnt protected by culture argument gotcha. does that mean blade is open for skin re-coloring?
@@jovenc4508 like I said, black panther is specifically about black Africans being colonized and is specifically about black African culture.