Nice insights. As a resto shaman main i share many of Rain's views. I like my utility and i like being able to interrupt, especially in pugs. I am a bit worried for resto shaman in S2 though, the mana management seems way too punishing on PTR right now. It's weird to see healers like Disc or MW not care about mana at all while resto shamans have to budget their mana really well. It's almost like Blizz expects you to heal with mostly Healing Wave and use Healing Surge sparingly, but that's not realistic with the spiky damage patterns in dungeons.
This is so true. I recently played some Classic and Cataclysm and was shocked how much smoother the incoming damage was. It was more of a mana management game over raw throughput. Wish we could get back to that.
There has been entire expacs that disc required external mana to play. I think people forget that. We have only had great mana since the shadow cov build came in. The whole SS debacle disc priest were getting every innervate under the sun to make it work. I would love to sacrifice some dps to have the utility, self rez, hero etc that shimmies have. Disc wont be meta by the looks of it in S2. MW are highly likely to be there instead
@ Sure but if we are looking at current balancing we have to look at the current iterations of all the healer specs. There probably was a time when resto shaman didn't have many mana problems and way back in classic every healer had to watch their mana. But in modern WoW there is now a huge divide between the healers when not only utility and hps are wildly different but also ressource management. PTR is still on for a while so they might change all classes a lot still, but i think mana issues is something that might easily fall through the cracks as it is not as easy as making a spreadsheet with hps numbers and basing balance around that.
@@Schnaqer Define modern era? Disc has had no mana issues since shadow cov which has only been a thing for a couple of seasons. So go back before that and we were chugging mana potions etc like the rest, and yes i played resto Shammie as an alt in shadoiwlands and had no mana issues then. I personally split my time between oracle and VW and oracle most certainly has mana issues. I have to drink a few times a key. Having said all that i understand what you are saying
I am a top 100 mw, I apply to every 14-16 key just so I can enjoy the satisfaction of getting declined by people waiting for a cracked disc priest, so I can watch them come back and post it again one key level lower. I have to sit in LFG for 2 hours to get into one of the like 10 push keys (and probably that only half don't have a healer already, and only half of those would even be IO.) Makes me not even want to play the game. It's not fun, I just want to play the heckin game dude!!1! If I post my key people come, we deplete it, they don't stay to fix it, then i gotta do this up and down mini game with the key with progressively worse players to do it with the lower it goes. Awesome dude. Love it. So much fun.
@@mmaric700 Oh i got lots of friends atp, still gotta pug. I am working on making a team for next season but all being adults with jobs I'll still end up pugging to practice keys or for loot and crests and stuff next season.
“They want it to be bad”, this is the realist shit in WoW. There’s NO WAY they don’t know these things aren’t issues. I’ve been wanting to get into MH for some time. When Wilds release, I’m going to leave wow. It’s been 24 years for me….. it’s time.
Or Fellowship. The passion the Fellowship devs exude for trying to create an m+ game as best as it can be is gonna kill WoW m+ because its so clear that Blizzard devs have just checked out.
I left around a month ago for this reason. Because there really is only 2 options, either they're incompetent, or it's intentional. And neither of those are acceptable to me. I've been bouncing between games since, I've played a disgusting amount of poe2 and am now waiting on next patch there, I play xiv very casually, I very much enjoy BDO but I grew up on Korean grind mmos like flyff and 9dragons so you gotta take that opinion with a grain of salt. And I made a spreadsheet the other day and my gaming backlog is 53 games on steam alone. On top of new releases coming like MH and other platforms. What I'm getting at is there are a lot of games out there that will actually make you happy to play.
As always man, this is some great long form content. You have immaculate vibes when you post stuff like this. I love the positivity you bring to the WoW scene. The overlap of well adjusted, considerate, and passionate players unfortunately doesn't always seem so big in world of warcraft, but you honestly give me hope for finding a rockin static group to push keys and raid with. Thanks for all the support you give to the community man!
A healer feels like they have no agency not from their toolkit's perspective, but also overhealing because they have to overcompensate for other people's mistakes which only places the healer in a disadvantaged position because they have wasted CDs and GCDs and/or other resources so if another person takes damage for whatever reason they are likely screwed. I know it's a matter of skill issue from the DPS and the tank side most of the time so if the community is f'ing up the healers, what can a healer do and also, what should the healer do? Because giving a healer more tools isn't always the best choice to compensate and due to other reasons such as class identity, it's not exactly easy to create very specific tools to fit their identity and also to keep these consistently performing and be balanced well enough through the different nature/type of content. Of course, we know that Blizzard could do a lot more, in terms of tuning per content for all the above, but they don't and partially they are right for not doing so, you are not "a baby" playing this game at this M+ level, but also, you can't expect a healer main to want to pug healing. Healing some mistakes is ok and is basically allowed by the game itself anyway. But pugging is virtually dead in this expansion, no matter the season, (season 2 changes are a false hope, i was correct the first time for TWW almost 100% that its changed would kill pugging, because i have enough experience and insight to be able to tell) because mistakes are so costly (and they should be), that a healer is virtually useless in the randomness of the performance levels of pugging, even when a healer knows exactly when to handle their kit perfectly. A new system of skill evaluation needs to exist if pugging is not want to be left rotting, i believe this is one of the best solutions you can create if you don't want to change the game too much (because that's extremely challenging for so many reasons), as just the RIO of a player is not close enough to the vindictiveness of their skill, and that is Blizzards fault as well, for allowing us healers to be able to overcompensate so much for other people's mistakes.
The main problem is that they added tank health on the healers task list then did not increase healer power to fill that task. Instead, they nerfed healers, as has become a seasonal tradition for Blizzard.
I remember a df (or sl?) patch, where they said they wanted to give healers more time to react. The way they did that was to increase player health and damage taken by 25%. That didn't only not achieve what they wanted it to, but nerfed healers by 20% over night. There is probably one guy at blizzard who is good at math, and desperately tries to hold the company together, while everyone else has the most braindead and mathematically illiterate ideas to ever be conceived by man.
@@kailback1093 It is well known that Blizz devs don't play thier own game... What Dev playing M+ player would allow something like the current tank/healing nerfs to take place?
Is your comment in the context of keys higher than 12? I don't like to assume. Healing a tank prior to a 12 shouldn't even be an issue, at all. If you are having issues there are other problems. Tanks not rotating cooldowns, important kicks being missed, pulling more mobs than the group in whole can handle. I say this as a healer and tank, I just don't see how its hard to add a bit of tank healing.I also have zero desire to push past 12s myself so, perhaps my experience is limited. I can't say I complained about tank healing very much this season aside from issues I stated prior. My favorite is when a tank charges into a huge pack without a defensive, ah always a fun moment heh I had my own while I was learning.
fix tanks im tired of feeling like not a fucking tank but a plushy toy or something, taking so much damage and nearly dying in 2 hits as a tank is NOT fun
Going from maining a resto shaman to pugging late season mid keys as a Holy Priest with no interrupt is an experience. So frustrating watching a mob cast bar tic down and you can't do anything about it.
this is why i don't play my priest or resto druid. I did a gb 12 where hunter kicked 0 times and I kicked16 times on rdruid. If you've ever played rdruid you would know that's like moving a mountain and many druids will not even talent their kick because it's so bad and punishing. haven't played it since.
@@AmandaPelland with the TWW changes to stuns/stops, fear and chastise are just long cooldowns to buy you an extra half second. Mobs return to casting the original spell as soon as it wears off.
@@gokibros4451 This is why master shapeshifter exists, to try and smooth out these pain points so you no longer have to waste GCD's on form changes. Resto druid is one of the most fun healers, sorry to hear you've given up on it.
disc priest - i do not run Stonevault or Grim Batol unless the group has mage/druid/shaman for curse dispels. usually i only join if there are 2. otherwise just don't join. on another note, i really think the M+ key squish had a HUGE impact. many casuals didn't have time to level up keys to 15+ in the old scaling, now you get a +5 for your 2nd key ever and so you get way, way less experienced players in keys they don't understand but have in their bags. really stupid choice to basically delete content that many weak players could play all day and feel accomplished doing +5 to +12's that were pretty easy, now all those easy key levels are gone and those same players get into keys they don't understand or have the skills for.
I disagree with Rain at 26:18. i feel that the last boss of a dungeon should definitely not be the most challenging. There is nothing worse in M+ than getting to the last boss of a dungeon only to realize that you can't finish it.
I do agree with everything regarding stonevault, except for visual/theme. Love this dungeon thematically, overall it looks and feels so cool, except its really hard for no reason Edit: some comments here are extremely weird. Really liked the guest and the conversation, a lot of great points you've made
For me that only run up to 10 or 11 stonevault is one of the easiest dungeons. As long as you have 1 curse dispel and i play shaman or mage so i allways have that. And ara kara is the crappiest shit they have ever done. Last boss is a nightmare on lower keys.
I really would not mind being challenged as a tank. But as a new retail player, I am not only battling against how hard these are, but also the expectations people have leftover from previous seasons. I literally had a group break up on a +11 Mists after one dps and the healer died and I called a wipe. We had no brez available. I’m a prot pally and the dps said “you’re a prot pally, you don’t need a healer.”
as a tank player i just strait up quit this expansion / season, i will come back and try season 2. but it just wasnt fun. i miss the old system, not the affixes but the keystone levels because 1-7 i could learn routes and what to take and not take. then when i hit the 10 + i got the routes down and i know mechanics. i dont play meta tanks i just play blood. but this squeeze they did just took the fun out of it with everything else. now you have to do portal keys to get myth track and all that. its just not fun. so i quit 2 weeks into season 1 i hope season 2 will be better.
@@baker500877 so i havent done much in this season so i dont know if its the same but in the old system when you did a +20 keystone you get a portal to that dungeon, so im just guessing + 10 is where you get portals this season.
Pretty crazy what you guys are saying about blizzard being incompetent and lazy on purpose. I can see why and I sometimes suck on the copium too. But I think you are underestemating the ineffeciency and the incompetence hiding inside big companies. Maybe they can't force their staff anymore to do sprints, endless overtime and shitty pay anymore. Suddenly they are on a budget because they still want to pocket the money for the shareholders. If senior talents leaves in those companies, they tend to leave a big hole. Especially when you look at bug fixing the spaghetti code, that's usually harder to learn for new staff. It's especially sad because you can see the great worldbuilding, music and writing this season and people really showing what they can do. But if you look at older systems like m+, it's out of date, "lazy" and not in tune with the program. That's usually more a hint for a local issue there. Maybe they have really an incompetent lead there, they lost the talent that brought us really good shadowlands m+ dungeons, or they are outsourcing work and/or cheapening out on time and money to do it properly.
When WW launched, ppl used addons which made auction house impossible to use. We got error messages when we wanted to buy stuff yet items were visible on the screen. It took them a week to fix it, which should be done in few hours. Speaking about dungeons... They are ignored after the launch
So the second boss of stone vault is fun as a dPS healer. Either a mist weaver or disc priest because your damage gets amp’d and your healing gets amp’d
Problem with them giving us bad stuff and then fixing it later to look like a hero (which is what they've done time and time again), is that the moment something better comes along, or even equivalent the kids are going no contact. Probably permanently.
First season playing wow. I'm healing on rdruid exclusively pugs.. it's been pretty good mostly. I'm stuck just below 2500 with Stonevault 10 and Grim Batol 10 being all I need to progress. This late in the season, it's not easy even finding people running 10s. Looking forward to next season when I can hopefully progress quicker and my goal is 3k.
As an all time healer the answer is easy: the community sucks ass. The game is fine, probably at the best state I have ever played it. But when there are DPS eating dmg like cock I can not outheal, ad get flamed for it, of course I take a few days off. I want to enjoy my time playing the game, not getting flamed by idiots not knowing the dungeons.
the roles are unbalanced and skillfloor is different, they should delte one dps from dungeons and have ff14 model for healing. more responsibility on other people and UI shows what defensives ppl use
Preach brother.. I am with you. The M+ community sucks in wow... I am so tired of the horde of crappy players screaming of how bad YOU are while they stand in fire and don't kick.
Honestly i loved the difficulty in some ways, but it didn't really stacked very well with the class/hero talent i liked which made it even harder in a gameplay perspective and even harder with the community perception. The reward system is way too harsh compared to the time invested.
dunno, i vastly prefer Grim Batol. wish it wouldnßt force you to bring curse dispell and the 3rd boss was not cheesable, but it still has a nice cadence to it. And the bosses in vault are just bad for pugs.
"blue arrows" hey what about crystal salvo from the trash in skarn hallway? huh? They match the color of the floor, they're tiny, every time i got to sv at least 1 person dies to them. I just premove and move away from where my allies are without looking at the floor cause i know they go where people are so just move and move away from team but i play melee healers it's a pain and watching someone walk into it or not move, man.......why does trash pulls have ninja one shots you can't see
"I don't know the solution to get players to learn mechanics" Well you could start by not allowing depletion, that way as soon as something goes wrong it doesn't fall apart with leavers. Then someone in the group will pipe up and say "you have to do x".
I feel like the systemic issue of dungeons constantly needing to 1 shot check you is a symptom of the defensive bloat in the game, until they address how much people can live without a healer, they wont stop making mechanics that require intricate understanding of all dungeon mechanics to pass it on a 10 key.
Actually that feedback theory is not entirely wrong, but to me it is not the reason. If you ever worked in a company you would know how Blizzard functions. They always work on the *next project and little on the current* the goal is production/efficiency VS the outcome, just like any company that tries to make money. I really believe the employees make the best they can compared to the time given to them to create and fix content while it is developed. If the HQ isn't allowing more resources (money) for bug fixes it can go on for a long time just like we saw in several expansions.
This is definitely a "Do not confuse for malice what can be explained by incompetence or apathy" situation. They are not trying to make the current game bad, they just know they have a cash cow base of perma-subs and are dedicating dev time to marginal subs above that. They already hit their breaking point with Shadowlands S2, they already know what the sub count looks like when the game gets really bad and are working off of that information. They are just making the calculation of "How much can we increase sub count by dedicating how much dev time to player housing in the next expansion vs fixing bugs in current expansion." And it's 100% true that they can get away with this because there is no current competitor to m+. But Fellowship is going to come out soon and do to WoW m+ what Marvel Rivals did to Overwatch.
I don’t understand how a digital game with content creators testing and giving feedback, flagging that many bugs and STILL release it knowing that if fail at first impression the rest is a domino effect , I refuse to go back to play another glass cannon tank.
I feel like dps defensive toolkit is perhaps too strong and that maybe they tuned healer power accordingly…which is problematic because in many pug keys it’s under utilized. My mage can survive through an eternity of high damage mechanics before requiring a single bit of healing while also being able to put a barrier on my whole group. Other dps have spells like ancestral guidance and nature’s vigil which are pretty much healer cooldowns…which is fine, but incoming damage and healer power can’t be tuned assuming they will be regularly used. You need to make the average healer feel like they have agency when they are in a dungeon where little to no defensives are used, occasional avoidable damage is taken, and many spells are not interrupted because that’s a common situation in pugs until you get to a high level…and healers aren’t going to make it to higher keys if they get burnt out in the misery and hell that is pugging low to mid keys as a healer. When I healed in shadowlands I felt like I could keep the group alive through a lot of mistakes and little to no defensives used…I don’t feel the same now and feel much more at the mercy of dps defensive use.
Not even mentioning Grim Batol (wich is pure hell) i also think Necrotic Wake is giga overtuned for tank. Here what i do every run: 1)Link the route and explain where are we skipping and what are we doing with certain caster mobs 2)Tell who is taking what and using it when 3)Tell about 1st boss and my sac on each 2nd aoe that ppl can save def CDs 4)Freaking tank the first pull 5)Tank all the crazy shit between 1st and 2nd boss 6)Explain that DPS players need to focus necromancer solo target when i pull it with 2 big skeletons on the bridge 7)Kick/shield 100 times every pack 8)Tank crazy pull before 2nd boss 9)Do million kicks on 2nd boss while tanking every add 10)Tank crasy shit upstairs 11)Survive last boss While my dps booga wooga 123123123 die in swirlie Dropped this BS in 0.7 patch (bugged gem was last drop), ill try s2 but i expect it to be even worse somehow
Problem with that is probably more casual players don't have MDT, and even then most people will forget things after the first pull xD so you would have to stop and type every now and then and people are impantient + not all timers allow for alot of downtime
@@yngve9470 Then those casual players need to stay the fuq outta dungeons.. You don't want to learn the rules of the game??. GTFO.. They are wasting my time with terrible playing.
I started playing healers this season and also quit playing healers this season. I may enjoy 1-2 keys but then I'm tired. While when I play DPS I can do easily 5-7 keys in a row
I don't think you need a conspiracy theory to explain these issues, and 100% agree with Quazii at 1:37:55. They just are trying to do too much in too little time. They've committed to a particular schedule of patches and expansions, faster than in the past, and it's biting them in the ass. See also: how little content is on the Siren Isle. They have to get the next big patch out soon, which doesn't leave time for fixing bugs, number tuning, and such in the current patch.
Disc Priest = Unholy Gargoyle spam. Not a fun play style. People just think DPSing as a caster to heal is fun. It takes a while to sink in that you're spamming Smite.
I'm on that camp as well. They know how many ppl are yearly subbed. So it make sense to bank all these free wins ,like removing key depletion, for that turnover! By that time I won't have any more wow friends...
i've been maining holy paladin this season as i wanted something new and holy pala was the healer i've tried before (just early mythics and ksm back in shadowlands) and wow i was suprised how much WORK there is to just do a weekly key, everything now punishes and falls on the healer, a fully loaded heal dont max out a healthbar and some specs do 3x the damage with half the damage effort, pugs are horrible and every mistake is exclusively a healers job to fix, not tank or dps, i see why there is a lack of healers in the game these days (and tanks), they said earlier that the support roles should be easier and more rewarding to give more activity but they really didnt wanna do that
There was a few healers who “joked” and complained about tanks surviving big pulls , that they needed something to do … casters in MDI hyping groups without heals , and no, not everyone can pull like mdi but blizz took it personal and here we are skipping season 1
I think there needs to be a middle ground. I quit healing mythics in DF S3 because why would I want to just be a shitty dps? I barely had to heal. This season has been more fun healing for me personally as I actually have to heal everyone. But I understand it is stressful and not fun for a lot of people. Tanks shouldn't be invincible, but they shouldn't be getting one shot or repeatedly close to.
@@thirdbase588 I'm not interested in middle ground. I am interested in fun and accessible. I want a fun experience for the time and money I invest into it. You want to be a sweat lord.. Go play another game.
@ Get over yourself. Not wanting the tank to be invincible doesn't make someone a sweat lord. Sounds like you need to go play another game. Go play a single player game where you're invincible and don't have to worry about playing with someone else you tool
Dude the nerfing a of tank just makes the game objectively worse! As a healer it’s brutal I feel so helpless because if the tank doesn’t have any CDs he’s zeroed so quick! Moreover, no wonder nobody wants to tank and healing is fun I love the challenge but it’s sometimes it’s just to much! Just let tanks feel powerful who cares if some highend player do some no healer comps because the opposite that tanks suck no body wants to play them!
I dont mean to sound prejudiced at all, so my apologies if it does come off that way, but after you hear Quazil's heavy accent and seeing he has a friend with a similar phenotype, Rain speaking and sounding like what I can best encapsulate as "the embodiment of Utah" threw me a bit and made me laugh. There's no reason that he "shouldnt" sound that way, just the expectations that are automatically formulated in your own mind were subverted. The only bad things that could be said about this observation are about me and not at all about either of you. Great content, keep it up.
lol that will never happen.. Blizzard seems intent on making mechanics visually blend in with the environment. Who can't see a light blue line moving that will stun you move around a blue floor? Like red swirlies? Great! lets put them allover a red and purple dungeon floor.
I wonder what you think about doing more of what they are already doing with normal/heroic and mythic dungeon difficulities. Where they exclude some mechanics until heroic and then mythic has some that normal and heroic didn't. What if they did the same thing but with the higher key levels, this way I think dungeons would be better for casuals, while also keeping it harder for the titles pushers. Espcially now that they are doing the changes to rewards, making higher keys give better reward, that should help against people just farming lower keys for crests and stuff.
I agree with this change, especially as introducing actual dangerous mechanics only in mythic means lots of people don't get a chance to practice it. Sure you can practice it on M0, but no one runs M0
Sometimes it feels that 90 perc of success depends on damage dealers. If damage is low on boss you will run out of cds. You cant heal one shots or predict all mistakes. Heck, we do mistakes ourselves. People complain about tanks, but in most cases they are solid players. Dps-50/50
I miss the SL M+ that was more geared towards a damage speed run, instead of a survival run. It wasn't perfect for balance but it was fun. Bigger pulls, bigger damage, faster runs = more fun IMO.
@@whereisthesurvivalhunter9525 I would like M+ that was more geared towards a damage speed run, instead of a survival run. Bigger pulls, bigger damage, faster runs = more fun IMO. Better?
Healing and tanking should be easy and OP…otherwise everyone quits because a lack of those classes will always be felt by everyone else. Stop over designing tanks and healers, make them simple and powerful. Or watch your game die
Its time we realise WOW is no longer for content players aka, raiders, m+ and pvp, its for the casual player doing content at a way slower phase than we do, i fear TWW rework of M+ was a last carrot given to M+ and after this, we are not getting much else in the saga.
Everything yall have talked about is that damage is too high.... yet again, you're either alive or dead in the blink of am eye. Blizzard simply doesn't know how to balance incoming and outgoing damage and healing. It's all entirely too high. On top of every mechanic is on a set timer so their "fighting addons" is a problem they simply refuse to solve. So then they push the problem back on us. It's that basic of a design issue.
I play every healer; my r.sham is easy to play & has all the blizz dev love including ranged interrupt on short CD, totems that allow you to heal & cleanse (PCT) while moving, short CD to cast & move, dps built into my healing rain, mana efficient, bloodlust, good hero tree. Also R.Sham was the ONLY meta healer for 7 weeks this tier. The rest of my healers do not get as much blizz dev love, shout out for r. druid & h. pala esp this tier being in the dumpster. Can you interview more multiclass healers? not just a r.sham only healer?
Hey just remember these dungeons will come back in later seasons hope you're happy about that guys. I looooooooooove these dungeons so much I can't wait to see them again. You guys wanna explain CoT and SV to new people in midnight? It's gonna be sooooo much fun. Even more fun than now! /sarcasm /restingwitchface
Grim batol: the dungeon that is so much freaking overtuned that the tank looks like a DPS getting melee hits.I did a +10 on 618 ilvl (blood DK), pulling slowly in order to survive and got absolutely smashed anyway. I can't imagine how people manage to do the crazy first pull with two enforcers, dragon and the first pack. I almost get oneshot by just one pack of enforcer + guards ON A +10, HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO TANK THIS ON A +12
My biggest problem is that there is nothing to heal. You cannot heal to compensate for mistakes. If people make a mistake, they just die. Like, if I go do a +6-+7 with overgeared people that won't get instakilled by missed kick, I can easily pull 2.5-3.5 mil hps to compensate for their mistakes. Then I go to a 10 and I do 365k hps, because either people press their defensives and barely need any healing, or they get 100-0'd. Then there's the stupid tickdown mechanics, biggest offender being 2nd lieutenant in DB. If your dps get chunked, you just have to let them die, cause he ticks so hard, and so often you need all cds for that, so you have none to spare to top dps up. Lastly, way too much movement mechs. I am so done dodging swirlies (SV, GB) instead of healing.
@kaliyvga1426 properly set up, Pres Evoker can push insane numbers in shortheal bursts, it's just once your cds are out your whole group dies cause chronoflame can't keep ppl up alone.
I usually don't comment but I had to when the dude said this is the worst dungeon pool ever. I think it is one of the BEST pools ever. Why? Well it comes back to common source of your complaints here: being unable to effectively pug high keys. This season feels more rewarding than any DF seasons including Season 3 where I got title because of the necessity of being organized. The coordination required to do high level keys is more rewarding than past seasons because it showcases individual skill and teamwork. I understand most players do not want to put in the effort in organizing a static group but let's all be honest here with why you are complaining. You just want to do the highest level content and put minimal effort in by pugging. With that said, I respect Quazii and for all he has done including his plater profile which was a literal game changer for me.
So many Disc Priests in M+ dungeons seldom do anything for the group, the idea its meta makes so many priests choose it thinking everyone wants them. Restoration Shamans are Far more Resilient, better toolkit, and predictable healing, with so many niche toolkit items for all kinds of issues how can we really compare.
The one i like the least is necrotic wake. It's so flimsy and so easy to do one mistake and it's all over. The first pull is pretty awful and tough to do safely. Those damn harvesters that don't want to move. It's a pain all around and if there is one mistake on a boss it immediately escalates the fight difficulty. Stonevault i feel the timer is fine even if the dungeon has it's moments. Grim Batol is the same. I feel like the timer allows one slip up. But, necrotic wake is just too punishing. I am talking about up to 11. I know there are scaling issues with the other two.
When you run a dungeon on Normal or Heroic the RP should play for story context. When you enter a key all RP should be disabled for the key. I quit playing and finally unsubed. I want it to go back to the way it was in S3 or S4 of DF, end of story, no small changes, just put it back to when it was fun plz. I'm a healer main who's been healing since TBC and keys since Legion, but I give up. I'm just playing other games now, if they ever fix it the way that I want then I'll come back, but not before.
1:42:12 Microsoft also has a “sort of “monopoly on FPS with call of duty. People will buy even if it’s shit. Same with WOW for MMORPGs. But FF14 has a lot of people moving still
Yeah I don't really get most of the Stone vault complaints... "This is fine with a good team but when my group plays badly this is harder".... Seems to make sense to me? What's the issue here?
kinda true. ppl always defend difficulty in wow. I posted in Izen's youtube video yesterday that Mythic raid is too difficult for too many players. I wasn't saying make it SUPER EASY, I was saying tone down the difficulty with some things to some degree. You know, like, maybe make it 15% less difficult? Don't make it 50% easier. And I got stomped with 5+ comments saying "mythic SHOULD be hard" and "you must be a NOOB" etc. people are toxic and dumb, and then when they get what they say they want, they don't like it. the "you think you do but you don't" blizzard guy was kinda right... people think they want this or that, but when they get it they realize they don't want that actually lol
@@D2Mephistobut Mythic raid is fine and should be hard. It is the final form of content. Just don't Mythic raid. It is hard content for the people who want hard content. There was nothing wrong with Healing in past seasons, but Blizzard caved to the people who cried that they didn't have enough to heal and now no one, including the people who cried liked healing. The WoW devs are going down the same hole that killed OW where when trying to cater to everybody they aren't pleasing anyone. They need to recgonize that 1 group is going to be unhappy instead of passing off both groups trying to please everyone.
@@D2Mephisto y, it´s insecure people that want to show how good they are to strangers online for some reason. Especially for M+ it´s ridiculous, if it´s too easy for you just play a higher key... for raid i strongly believe the way forward would be to make Mythic flexible and much easier to fit it and seperate the current fixed 20man as a new highest difficulty that is on the same item lockout as "easy" flex mythic but every boss gives some cosmetics/titles etc. And you could make it disable addon-functions and scale the ilvl of all playrs to be the same to gurantee the best tuning and make the world first race more competitve.
@@deseanroot75 your reply makes my point exactly. there are so many ppl who think the way you think. I disagree. which is ok. we don't have to agree. peace.
Imo i just hate tge boss designs. They just feel annoying overall to heal. Especially the bossess that doo dots into burst, junk is the least fun thing too heal.
Sorry but this interview comes off to me as really whiney. This might be a hot take but the top 1% of content should not be puggable. I’d even go as far to say the top 5% shouldn’t be. This is first and foremost a social content game. You guys are constantly whining about how high level keys aren’t puggable. It shouldn’t be. Obviously my opinion. The biggest issue this expansion so far, I 100% agree with you guys are the bugs and not addressing them quickly or at all.
I quit healing because the vast majority Wow player base are unskilled, toxic and simply don't do what it takes to time keys. I am not going to spend my time healing players catching a softball with their face and then listen to them complain that it hurt. Not to mention the dungeon rotation are complete garbage. Season two is not looking much better. So.. keep enjoying having one less healer/tank in the player pool. I'm playing other games that don't have toxic whiners plaguing them.
As a Holy Priest, I usually don't dispel the debuffs in CoT, I let them time out, and I announce that folks need to position to avoid the orbs. I usually don't go beyond 10s, that might not work in higher keys.
Quazii needs to learn how to talk slower. When he gets passionate, he speeds up and he starts skipping letters in words. I'm not a native English speaker and I have issues with understanding him.
Tanking should go back to being about threat generation rather than mitigation. Healing should go back to being about mana management rather than throughput.
Nah terrible design overall, S2 looks no better. Until the devs understand that 90+% of keys are pugs and need to be treated as such, M+ will spiral down.
I have had a blast healing keys this season I am a little shy of 3k io, all 12s a few 13s. So not a high end player but also not a total scrub. I think the affix changes were fantastic. Yes they should make tanks a little less squishy, and the dungeon pool wasnt amazing. But I sure had fun logging in eveyday and gaming with the homies.
I had so much fun during Dragonflight season 3 as a tank player, blasting +15,16,17,18,19,20 keys as a brewmaster in PUGs. No problem. Any difficulty it was FUN. As long as everyone in the group pressed some utility sporadically whenever they felt like it was a good time to press it, like stuns, defensives and such, we could get to the end in time. Even with 15 deaths it was possible to recover and time it. I think i had around 2700-2800 mythic plus rating or something like this just by playing in PUGs. ZERO premades. Rarely anyone was leaving keys, it happened maybe once or twice for me the entire season that someone left, so far between i barely remember it happening. I was tanky, and i could sustain myself pretty good if i played good, and relied very little on the healer to carry me. Took season 4 off the game pretty much... And come back to War within, hyped! New expansion! Better talent trees! improved classes! NICE! and then... Mythic plus season starts... Oh boy what a let down this was compared to season 3 DF. Couldnt pull big rarely ever, stuns did nothing except waste people kicks into the stun and casters start casting immedietly after the stun ends and have no kicks left to stop it.... NICE!. One cast and one tankbuster goes off, tank dead. OK.... Self sustain absolutely in the toilet, flushed down to the bottom of the ocean. Healing orbs for brewmaster does absolutely nothing, stagger is completely broken jojoing up in a second from just auto-hits from regular trash mobs. Gearing up barely changes anything, its just a struggle. Its BORING. Thats how i can summarize season 1 war within: BORING. It feels like im back in classic being 13 years old having to pull mobs ONE BY ONE, and healer needs to sit down and drink after 2 pulls. Such a slow snoozefest with oneshots left and right. DPS players dies all the time, tanks dies randomly to casts and tank busters randomly lining up by bad luck. I did finish all the keys on 10-11 level in time eventually with premade guild group sitting in voice coms communicating defensives, kicks and other CC as perfectly as we could, and after we got the portals and the achievement from mythic plus and raid, everyone literally logged off, and have not logged in for a month and half, the guild is dead until season 2. And why is that? Because what used to be a fun end-game activity to do together has become a tedious grind and some tryhard sweatlord content. And on top of being so un-fun, the loot was nerfed too! For an entire season i was not able to reach BIS gear, its a joke really. Still i dont have BIS on any of my characters and the season is almost over. One more season like this, and im not playing season 3. I think ill just skip season 4 aswell and come back for next expansion. Im not paying a monthly sub to be stressed out and bored at the same time, because to get that feeling i can just work overtime at my job instead, and actually earn money and not lose money.
?? getting earth elemental to eat tank busters is wildly inconsistent, and in some cases not possible. E.G. Subjugation is coded to only hit players. And tank busters are the only reason to use externals
Maybe a little disingenuous complaining about a disc priest when you are a resto shaman and have had a great season 1. Spare a thought for the healers that have really struggled. Great discussion though.
For me this season is easily one of the best so far. I only do up to 10 or 11. And its challenging enough but still challenging only what you think is hard dungeons and easy ones. Its flipped on 10. Ara kara is a cluster fuck and almost untimable on a 10.
I don't know, but i do like healers in TWW. I did hated them a little on Dragonflight while you were forced to do damage and healing at the same time, now in TWW, you just have to heal, which you are supposed to do actually. What i would change a little is the speed of things going in M+, going a little back on the old dungeons while they took some time to complete gave you a different feeling. I know, not everybody has free time (me included), but i would rather do 1-2 dungeons a day than speed-running 10 in a day, understanding mostly nothing that happens and have no fun. Also, they should really consider the Addons thing. This would make the game more difficult without them, which is nice from my point of view. Could this be done in some way that if the client detects you're using addons, reward you normally like it is now, or in the other way, if you're not using addons, give you some extra credits, currencies, items? Something extra as an reward. :)
You still have to damage as a healer in TWW*. As long as M+ is timed damage will always be required. A healer who damages and keeps the team alive >>>> a healer who does 3mil hps but no damage. It is always going to be this way but now healing is just more miserable
Man…all this complaining about S1 is so strange to me. This season has been the most fun, most improvement, and most challenging season ever. It’s made me a better healer than any season before it. I’ve absolutely loved it. @quazii I’m a nobody no where near title, but happy to talk about this from a different perspective.
You guys cried that you wanted to heal more and blizzard delivered. Now you cry that there is too much to heal. For once this is actually not blizzards fault.
Great video and insights. However, M+ is undoubtedly the worst game mode ever invented in the history of the MMORPG genre and should be removed from WoW entirely. PvP can take its place on the vault. M+ is a mini-game with nothing to do with the Lore and is responsible for turning group content into the worst experience World of Warcraft has to offer. Take it out of retail and make it a mobile game. M+ is not fun, Dungeons are not fun. Raids are not fun when tanks overpull trash like they are on a clock causing unnecessary wipes, frustration, and wasted time. The poison spread throughout all group content due to the timer, IO scoring, and the competitiveness M+ brings is immeasurable. Cut the cord and move away from this incurable sweaty, smelly, and divisive disease.
Mythic+ is the most boring content in the world. Also this isn't an mmo podcast when 95% of your videos are about mythic+, at that point it's a mythic+ podcast.
Thanks for telling us what to think, I'm sure Quazii will completely re-think all of his content, since the whole world revolves around you! Just kidding, please get bent.
just don’t watch or listen to podcast episodes, straight up nobody cares. I promise your life will be better if you don’t engage with stuff you don’t enjoy or absolutely have to engage with.
It has more potential to carry the game then raiding does. Heroic raid is too easy and mythic 20 man requirement is too much. Raid is basically get the loot and then dip. M+ you can actually play at a high difficulty with a small group of friends for awhile.
Re: Grim Batol, don't forget the joy and fun of having to run back after wipe on the last boss.
be happy that u only have to run back from the last boss and not from the start ;P
You guys managed to reach the last boss without rage quiting? :O
If Darkflame Cleft respawn location goes live as is on PTR, a wipe at end boss will be an immediate group disband.
Nice insights. As a resto shaman main i share many of Rain's views. I like my utility and i like being able to interrupt, especially in pugs.
I am a bit worried for resto shaman in S2 though, the mana management seems way too punishing on PTR right now. It's weird to see healers like Disc or MW not care about mana at all while resto shamans have to budget their mana really well. It's almost like Blizz expects you to heal with mostly Healing Wave and use Healing Surge sparingly, but that's not realistic with the spiky damage patterns in dungeons.
This is so true.
I recently played some Classic and Cataclysm and was shocked how much smoother the incoming damage was. It was more of a mana management game over raw throughput.
Wish we could get back to that.
Only the devs will listen to the mana thing, when I bring it up on forums its gets dismissed by noobs.
There has been entire expacs that disc required external mana to play. I think people forget that. We have only had great mana since the shadow cov build came in. The whole SS debacle disc priest were getting every innervate under the sun to make it work. I would love to sacrifice some dps to have the utility, self rez, hero etc that shimmies have. Disc wont be meta by the looks of it in S2. MW are highly likely to be there instead
@ Sure but if we are looking at current balancing we have to look at the current iterations of all the healer specs. There probably was a time when resto shaman didn't have many mana problems and way back in classic every healer had to watch their mana. But in modern WoW there is now a huge divide between the healers when not only utility and hps are wildly different but also ressource management. PTR is still on for a while so they might change all classes a lot still, but i think mana issues is something that might easily fall through the cracks as it is not as easy as making a spreadsheet with hps numbers and basing balance around that.
@@Schnaqer Define modern era? Disc has had no mana issues since shadow cov which has only been a thing for a couple of seasons. So go back before that and we were chugging mana potions etc like the rest, and yes i played resto Shammie as an alt in shadoiwlands and had no mana issues then. I personally split my time between oracle and VW and oracle most certainly has mana issues. I have to drink a few times a key. Having said all that i understand what you are saying
I am a top 100 mw, I apply to every 14-16 key just so I can enjoy the satisfaction of getting declined by people waiting for a cracked disc priest, so I can watch them come back and post it again one key level lower. I have to sit in LFG for 2 hours to get into one of the like 10 push keys (and probably that only half don't have a healer already, and only half of those would even be IO.) Makes me not even want to play the game. It's not fun, I just want to play the heckin game dude!!1! If I post my key people come, we deplete it, they don't stay to fix it, then i gotta do this up and down mini game with the key with progressively worse players to do it with the lower it goes. Awesome dude. Love it. So much fun.
Yeah same! I just want to game. Cant even get to 10s. When I can +3 them already.
If you do 16s but do so exclusively in pugs you kinda missed the 2nd part of m+, which is networking. Nothing blizzard can do will fix this for you.
dont worry man. Next season you will be the cracked mw
you should find a guild and add more friends you play with and your fine
@@mmaric700 Oh i got lots of friends atp, still gotta pug. I am working on making a team for next season but all being adults with jobs I'll still end up pugging to practice keys or for loot and crests and stuff next season.
Man I can't take another bad m+ season...
This season is one of the best tho
@@zpokie123 bad troll attempt bro xD
This Rain guy seems like a really nice guy. Enjoyed the convo
“They want it to be bad”, this is the realist shit in WoW. There’s NO WAY they don’t know these things aren’t issues.
I’ve been wanting to get into MH for some time. When Wilds release, I’m going to leave wow. It’s been 24 years for me….. it’s time.
Or Fellowship. The passion the Fellowship devs exude for trying to create an m+ game as best as it can be is gonna kill WoW m+ because its so clear that Blizzard devs have just checked out.
Well... u can always just not do mythic+
U played years and years without it
@@cjbaab3553 They have? That's news to me.
I left around a month ago for this reason. Because there really is only 2 options, either they're incompetent, or it's intentional. And neither of those are acceptable to me. I've been bouncing between games since, I've played a disgusting amount of poe2 and am now waiting on next patch there, I play xiv very casually, I very much enjoy BDO but I grew up on Korean grind mmos like flyff and 9dragons so you gotta take that opinion with a grain of salt. And I made a spreadsheet the other day and my gaming backlog is 53 games on steam alone. On top of new releases coming like MH and other platforms. What I'm getting at is there are a lot of games out there that will actually make you happy to play.
Stonevault with lava pools on the open vent. Fun BS times.
Rain: "I like big pulls and I cannot lie"
As always man, this is some great long form content. You have immaculate vibes when you post stuff like this. I love the positivity you bring to the WoW scene. The overlap of well adjusted, considerate, and passionate players unfortunately doesn't always seem so big in world of warcraft, but you honestly give me hope for finding a rockin static group to push keys and raid with. Thanks for all the support you give to the community man!
A healer feels like they have no agency not from their toolkit's perspective, but also overhealing because they have to overcompensate for other people's mistakes which only places the healer in a disadvantaged position because they have wasted CDs and GCDs and/or other resources so if another person takes damage for whatever reason they are likely screwed.
I know it's a matter of skill issue from the DPS and the tank side most of the time so if the community is f'ing up the healers, what can a healer do and also, what should the healer do?
Because giving a healer more tools isn't always the best choice to compensate and due to other reasons such as class identity, it's not exactly easy to create very specific tools to fit their identity and also to keep these consistently performing and be balanced well enough through the different nature/type of content.
Of course, we know that Blizzard could do a lot more, in terms of tuning per content for all the above, but they don't and partially they are right for not doing so, you are not "a baby" playing this game at this M+ level, but also, you can't expect a healer main to want to pug healing.
Healing some mistakes is ok and is basically allowed by the game itself anyway.
But pugging is virtually dead in this expansion, no matter the season, (season 2 changes are a false hope, i was correct the first time for TWW almost 100% that its changed would kill pugging, because i have enough experience and insight to be able to tell) because mistakes are so costly (and they should be), that a healer is virtually useless in the randomness of the performance levels of pugging, even when a healer knows exactly when to handle their kit perfectly.
A new system of skill evaluation needs to exist if pugging is not want to be left rotting, i believe this is one of the best solutions you can create if you don't want to change the game too much (because that's extremely challenging for so many reasons), as just the RIO of a player is not close enough to the vindictiveness of their skill, and that is Blizzards fault as well, for allowing us healers to be able to overcompensate so much for other people's mistakes.
The main problem is that they added tank health on the healers task list then did not increase healer power to fill that task. Instead, they nerfed healers, as has become a seasonal tradition for Blizzard.
I'm convinced blizzard doesn't play their own game.
I remember a df (or sl?) patch, where they said they wanted to give healers more time to react. The way they did that was to increase player health and damage taken by 25%. That didn't only not achieve what they wanted it to, but nerfed healers by 20% over night.
There is probably one guy at blizzard who is good at math, and desperately tries to hold the company together, while everyone else has the most braindead and mathematically illiterate ideas to ever be conceived by man.
@@kailback1093 It is well known that Blizz devs don't play thier own game... What Dev playing M+ player would allow something like the current tank/healing nerfs to take place?
Is your comment in the context of keys higher than 12? I don't like to assume. Healing a tank prior to a 12 shouldn't even be an issue, at all. If you are having issues there are other problems. Tanks not rotating cooldowns, important kicks being missed, pulling more mobs than the group in whole can handle.
I say this as a healer and tank, I just don't see how its hard to add a bit of tank healing.I also have zero desire to push past 12s myself so, perhaps my experience is limited. I can't say I complained about tank healing very much this season aside from issues I stated prior. My favorite is when a tank charges into a huge pack without a defensive, ah always a fun moment heh I had my own while I was learning.
fix tanks im tired of feeling like not a fucking tank but a plushy toy or something, taking so much damage and nearly dying in 2 hits as a tank is NOT fun
Wouldn't be a problem is they gave healers proper spot healing but they combo-ed DF healing with removing tank survivability
Going from maining a resto shaman to pugging late season mid keys as a Holy Priest with no interrupt is an experience. So frustrating watching a mob cast bar tic down and you can't do anything about it.
this is why i don't play my priest or resto druid. I did a gb 12 where hunter kicked 0 times and I kicked16 times on rdruid. If you've ever played rdruid you would know that's like moving a mountain and many druids will not even talent their kick because it's so bad and punishing. haven't played it since.
You could use crowd control with your holy priest. Talent fear so mobs don't run off. That is your alternate kick as holy and disc priest.
@@AmandaPelland with the TWW changes to stuns/stops, fear and chastise are just long cooldowns to buy you an extra half second. Mobs return to casting the original spell as soon as it wears off.
@@gokibros4451 This is why master shapeshifter exists, to try and smooth out these pain points so you no longer have to waste GCD's on form changes.
Resto druid is one of the most fun healers, sorry to hear you've given up on it.
35:50 Well, yeah, I wouldn’t mind it either if I could dispel the warlock absorb…
41:07 Ayy nm he acknowledged it, what a lad
Overtuned unbalanced dungeons, nerfs tanks and healers, hmmmm why this season sucks? Intresting question:D
disc priest - i do not run Stonevault or Grim Batol unless the group has mage/druid/shaman for curse dispels. usually i only join if there are 2. otherwise just don't join.
on another note, i really think the M+ key squish had a HUGE impact. many casuals didn't have time to level up keys to 15+ in the old scaling, now you get a +5 for your 2nd key ever and so you get way, way less experienced players in keys they don't understand but have in their bags. really stupid choice to basically delete content that many weak players could play all day and feel accomplished doing +5 to +12's that were pretty easy, now all those easy key levels are gone and those same players get into keys they don't understand or have the skills for.
I disagree with Rain at 26:18. i feel that the last boss of a dungeon should definitely not be the most challenging. There is nothing worse in M+ than getting to the last boss of a dungeon only to realize that you can't finish it.
ara *cough* kara *cough*
The last boss in ara kara is easy, just have 4 dks
This is one of my favorite guests you’ve had ever. Not sure why but he is comically hilarious and super interesting to listen to.
I do agree with everything regarding stonevault, except for visual/theme. Love this dungeon thematically, overall it looks and feels so cool, except its really hard for no reason
Edit: some comments here are extremely weird. Really liked the guest and the conversation, a lot of great points you've made
For me that only run up to 10 or 11 stonevault is one of the easiest dungeons. As long as you have 1 curse dispel and i play shaman or mage so i allways have that. And ara kara is the crappiest shit they have ever done. Last boss is a nightmare on lower keys.
Yo would be nice if you could listen to a Healer or Tank next havent had those in a while!
I really would not mind being challenged as a tank. But as a new retail player, I am not only battling against how hard these are, but also the expectations people have leftover from previous seasons. I literally had a group break up on a +11 Mists after one dps and the healer died and I called a wipe. We had no brez available. I’m a prot pally and the dps said “you’re a prot pally, you don’t need a healer.”
as a tank player i just strait up quit this expansion / season, i will come back and try season 2. but it just wasnt fun. i miss the old system, not the affixes but the keystone levels because 1-7 i could learn routes and what to take and not take. then when i hit the 10 + i got the routes down and i know mechanics. i dont play meta tanks i just play blood. but this squeeze they did just took the fun out of it with everything else. now you have to do portal keys to get myth track and all that. its just not fun. so i quit 2 weeks into season 1 i hope season 2 will be better.
What are portal keys
@@baker500877 so i havent done much in this season so i dont know if its the same but in the old system when you did a +20 keystone you get a portal to that dungeon, so im just guessing + 10 is where you get portals this season.
@ ohh yeah
Pretty crazy what you guys are saying about blizzard being incompetent and lazy on purpose. I can see why and I sometimes suck on the copium too. But I think you are underestemating the ineffeciency and the incompetence hiding inside big companies. Maybe they can't force their staff anymore to do sprints, endless overtime and shitty pay anymore. Suddenly they are on a budget because they still want to pocket the money for the shareholders. If senior talents leaves in those companies, they tend to leave a big hole. Especially when you look at bug fixing the spaghetti code, that's usually harder to learn for new staff.
It's especially sad because you can see the great worldbuilding, music and writing this season and people really showing what they can do. But if you look at older systems like m+, it's out of date, "lazy" and not in tune with the program. That's usually more a hint for a local issue there. Maybe they have really an incompetent lead there, they lost the talent that brought us really good shadowlands m+ dungeons, or they are outsourcing work and/or cheapening out on time and money to do it properly.
When WW launched, ppl used addons which made auction house impossible to use. We got error messages when we wanted to buy stuff yet items were visible on the screen. It took them a week to fix it, which should be done in few hours. Speaking about dungeons... They are ignored after the launch
So the second boss of stone vault is fun as a dPS healer. Either a mist weaver or disc priest because your damage gets amp’d and your healing gets amp’d
Problem with them giving us bad stuff and then fixing it later to look like a hero (which is what they've done time and time again), is that the moment something better comes along, or even equivalent the kids are going no contact. Probably permanently.
Im healer, uninstalled game few months ago, cant be happier. played pres evoker in pugs. Im not coming back. Okaying gw2 and ff14 rn
First season playing wow. I'm healing on rdruid exclusively pugs.. it's been pretty good mostly. I'm stuck just below 2500 with Stonevault 10 and Grim Batol 10 being all I need to progress. This late in the season, it's not easy even finding people running 10s. Looking forward to next season when I can hopefully progress quicker and my goal is 3k.
As an all time healer the answer is easy: the community sucks ass. The game is fine, probably at the best state I have ever played it. But when there are DPS eating dmg like cock I can not outheal, ad get flamed for it, of course I take a few days off. I want to enjoy my time playing the game, not getting flamed by idiots not knowing the dungeons.
the roles are unbalanced and skillfloor is different, they should delte one dps from dungeons and have ff14 model for healing. more responsibility on other people and UI shows what defensives ppl use
Preach brother.. I am with you. The M+ community sucks in wow... I am so tired of the horde of crappy players screaming of how bad YOU are while they stand in fire and don't kick.
The fact that there are still bugs is another reason to gear this content to pugs and the weekly key fun meter.
Honestly i loved the difficulty in some ways, but it didn't really stacked very well with the class/hero talent i liked which made it even harder in a gameplay perspective and even harder with the community perception.
The reward system is way too harsh compared to the time invested.
Bro everybody hates Stonevault and I absolutely love it 😂 Grim Batol though is definitely super rough.
Its the other way around for me. Really enjoy gb more than sv. Did my 10 sv and havent set foot in it ever. Happily did 10 gb in a row 🤣
dunno, i vastly prefer Grim Batol. wish it wouldnßt force you to bring curse dispell and the 3rd boss was not cheesable, but it still has a nice cadence to it. And the bosses in vault are just bad for pugs.
Love Stonevault, it gives me the best actual “dungeon” vibes this season
I just wish they had repair vendors.
I love both Stonevault and Grim, they're my favorite dungeons this season. I'm pushing +12s and not +15s mind you.
"blue arrows" hey what about crystal salvo from the trash in skarn hallway? huh? They match the color of the floor, they're tiny, every time i got to sv at least 1 person dies to them. I just premove and move away from where my allies are without looking at the floor cause i know they go where people are so just move and move away from team but i play melee healers it's a pain and watching someone walk into it or not move, man.......why does trash pulls have ninja one shots you can't see
"I don't know the solution to get players to learn mechanics"
Well you could start by not allowing depletion, that way as soon as something goes wrong it doesn't fall apart with leavers. Then someone in the group will pipe up and say "you have to do x".
Wish these were like a normal conversation.
Not a scripted/guided/predetermined set of questions and answers.
I feel like the systemic issue of dungeons constantly needing to 1 shot check you is a symptom of the defensive bloat in the game, until they address how much people can live without a healer, they wont stop making mechanics that require intricate understanding of all dungeon mechanics to pass it on a 10 key.
Actually that feedback theory is not entirely wrong, but to me it is not the reason.
If you ever worked in a company you would know how Blizzard functions.
They always work on the *next project and little on the current* the goal is production/efficiency VS the outcome, just like any company that tries to make money.
I really believe the employees make the best they can compared to the time given to them to create and fix content while it is developed.
If the HQ isn't allowing more resources (money) for bug fixes it can go on for a long time just like we saw in several expansions.
This is definitely a "Do not confuse for malice what can be explained by incompetence or apathy" situation. They are not trying to make the current game bad, they just know they have a cash cow base of perma-subs and are dedicating dev time to marginal subs above that. They already hit their breaking point with Shadowlands S2, they already know what the sub count looks like when the game gets really bad and are working off of that information. They are just making the calculation of "How much can we increase sub count by dedicating how much dev time to player housing in the next expansion vs fixing bugs in current expansion."
And it's 100% true that they can get away with this because there is no current competitor to m+. But Fellowship is going to come out soon and do to WoW m+ what Marvel Rivals did to Overwatch.
I don’t understand how a digital game with content creators testing and giving feedback, flagging that many bugs and STILL release it knowing that if fail at first impression the rest is a domino effect , I refuse to go back to play another glass cannon tank.
I feel like dps defensive toolkit is perhaps too strong and that maybe they tuned healer power accordingly…which is problematic because in many pug keys it’s under utilized. My mage can survive through an eternity of high damage mechanics before requiring a single bit of healing while also being able to put a barrier on my whole group. Other dps have spells like ancestral guidance and nature’s vigil which are pretty much healer cooldowns…which is fine, but incoming damage and healer power can’t be tuned assuming they will be regularly used.
You need to make the average healer feel like they have agency when they are in a dungeon where little to no defensives are used, occasional avoidable damage is taken, and many spells are not interrupted because that’s a common situation in pugs until you get to a high level…and healers aren’t going to make it to higher keys if they get burnt out in the misery and hell that is pugging low to mid keys as a healer. When I healed in shadowlands I felt like I could keep the group alive through a lot of mistakes and little to no defensives used…I don’t feel the same now and feel much more at the mercy of dps defensive use.
Not even mentioning Grim Batol (wich is pure hell) i also think Necrotic Wake is giga overtuned for tank. Here what i do every run:
1)Link the route and explain where are we skipping and what are we doing with certain caster mobs
2)Tell who is taking what and using it when
3)Tell about 1st boss and my sac on each 2nd aoe that ppl can save def CDs
4)Freaking tank the first pull
5)Tank all the crazy shit between 1st and 2nd boss
6)Explain that DPS players need to focus necromancer solo target when i pull it with 2 big skeletons on the bridge
7)Kick/shield 100 times every pack
8)Tank crazy pull before 2nd boss
9)Do million kicks on 2nd boss while tanking every add
10)Tank crasy shit upstairs
11)Survive last boss
While my dps booga wooga 123123123 die in swirlie
Dropped this BS in 0.7 patch (bugged gem was last drop), ill try s2 but i expect it to be even worse somehow
Problem with that is probably more casual players don't have MDT, and even then most people will forget things after the first pull xD so you would have to stop and type every now and then and people are impantient + not all timers allow for alot of downtime
@@yngve9470what is MDT?
@@yngve9470 Then those casual players need to stay the fuq outta dungeons.. You don't want to learn the rules of the game??. GTFO.. They are wasting my time with terrible playing.
I started playing healers this season and also quit playing healers this season. I may enjoy 1-2 keys but then I'm tired. While when I play DPS I can do easily 5-7 keys in a row
keep playing 1-2 man. good for your healthy
It even healthier to quit playing wow and play a game that is fun.
@@ericzommer5581 so why are u talking about playing 5-7 keys as it could be fun in some way?
@ Because its not me
I don't think you need a conspiracy theory to explain these issues, and 100% agree with Quazii at 1:37:55. They just are trying to do too much in too little time. They've committed to a particular schedule of patches and expansions, faster than in the past, and it's biting them in the ass. See also: how little content is on the Siren Isle. They have to get the next big patch out soon, which doesn't leave time for fixing bugs, number tuning, and such in the current patch.
Disc Priest = Unholy Gargoyle spam. Not a fun play style. People just think DPSing as a caster to heal is fun. It takes a while to sink in that you're spamming Smite.
I'm on that camp as well. They know how many ppl are yearly subbed. So it make sense to bank all these free wins ,like removing key depletion, for that turnover! By that time I won't have any more wow friends...
i've been maining holy paladin this season as i wanted something new and holy pala was the healer i've tried before (just early mythics and ksm back in shadowlands) and wow i was suprised how much WORK there is to just do a weekly key, everything now punishes and falls on the healer, a fully loaded heal dont max out a healthbar and some specs do 3x the damage with half the damage effort, pugs are horrible and every mistake is exclusively a healers job to fix, not tank or dps, i see why there is a lack of healers in the game these days (and tanks), they said earlier that the support roles should be easier and more rewarding to give more activity but they really didnt wanna do that
There was a few healers who “joked” and complained about tanks surviving big pulls , that they needed something to do … casters in MDI hyping groups without heals , and no, not everyone can pull like mdi but blizz took it personal and here we are skipping season 1
What is MDI
I think there needs to be a middle ground. I quit healing mythics in DF S3 because why would I want to just be a shitty dps? I barely had to heal. This season has been more fun healing for me personally as I actually have to heal everyone. But I understand it is stressful and not fun for a lot of people. Tanks shouldn't be invincible, but they shouldn't be getting one shot or repeatedly close to.
@ agree but middle ground for who ? The sweaty or “casuals” ? Because tanks were only invincible on the hands of the sweaty players
@@thirdbase588 I'm not interested in middle ground. I am interested in fun and accessible. I want a fun experience for the time and money I invest into it. You want to be a sweat lord.. Go play another game.
@ Get over yourself. Not wanting the tank to be invincible doesn't make someone a sweat lord. Sounds like you need to go play another game. Go play a single player game where you're invincible and don't have to worry about playing with someone else you tool
Dude the nerfing a of tank just makes the game objectively worse! As a healer it’s brutal I feel so helpless because if the tank doesn’t have any CDs he’s zeroed so quick! Moreover, no wonder nobody wants to tank and healing is fun I love the challenge but it’s sometimes it’s just to much! Just let tanks feel powerful who cares if some highend player do some no healer comps because the opposite that tanks suck no body wants to play them!
I dont mean to sound prejudiced at all, so my apologies if it does come off that way, but after you hear Quazil's heavy accent and seeing he has a friend with a similar phenotype, Rain speaking and sounding like what I can best encapsulate as "the embodiment of Utah" threw me a bit and made me laugh. There's no reason that he "shouldnt" sound that way, just the expectations that are automatically formulated in your own mind were subverted. The only bad things that could be said about this observation are about me and not at all about either of you.
Great content, keep it up.
Making mechanics visible should fix some issues. Make the mechanic a vastly different color than the rest of the environment.
lol that will never happen.. Blizzard seems intent on making mechanics visually blend in with the environment. Who can't see a light blue line moving that will stun you move around a blue floor? Like red swirlies? Great! lets put them allover a red and purple dungeon floor.
Yesss! More quazi
Thanks Quazii for the fun podcast! I’m full copium. Season 2 will be great!! I believe in Blizzard.
It's almost like calling people to the office wasn't a good idea. How weird.
I like this fella Rain
I wonder what you think about doing more of what they are already doing with normal/heroic and mythic dungeon difficulities. Where they exclude some mechanics until heroic and then mythic has some that normal and heroic didn't.
What if they did the same thing but with the higher key levels, this way I think dungeons would be better for casuals, while also keeping it harder for the titles pushers. Espcially now that they are doing the changes to rewards, making higher keys give better reward, that should help against people just farming lower keys for crests and stuff.
I agree with this change, especially as introducing actual dangerous mechanics only in mythic means lots of people don't get a chance to practice it. Sure you can practice it on M0, but no one runs M0
Sometimes it feels that 90 perc of success depends on damage dealers. If damage is low on boss you will run out of cds. You cant heal one shots or predict all mistakes. Heck, we do mistakes ourselves. People complain about tanks, but in most cases they are solid players. Dps-50/50
I miss the SL M+ that was more geared towards a damage speed run, instead of a survival run. It wasn't perfect for balance but it was fun. Bigger pulls, bigger damage, faster runs = more fun IMO.
Except...for the class limited to 5 or 8 targets (SL is when they introduced the target caps, not a very smart move)
@@whereisthesurvivalhunter9525 I would like M+ that was more geared towards a damage speed run, instead of a survival run. Bigger pulls, bigger damage, faster runs = more fun IMO.
Better?
no way! RAIN?!!1
Healing and tanking should be easy and OP…otherwise everyone quits because a lack of those classes will always be felt by everyone else.
Stop over designing tanks and healers, make them simple and powerful. Or watch your game die
Too late, the game is dying. I have played for over 15 years.. Yet year after year, i get less and less willing to deal with Blizzard BS.
A farseerer enjoyer. A man of culture i see.
Its time we realise WOW is no longer for content players aka, raiders, m+ and pvp, its for the casual player doing content at a way slower phase than we do, i fear TWW rework of M+ was a last carrot given to M+ and after this, we are not getting much else in the saga.
Everything yall have talked about is that damage is too high.... yet again, you're either alive or dead in the blink of am eye. Blizzard simply doesn't know how to balance incoming and outgoing damage and healing. It's all entirely too high. On top of every mechanic is on a set timer so their "fighting addons" is a problem they simply refuse to solve. So then they push the problem back on us. It's that basic of a design issue.
I play every healer; my r.sham is easy to play & has all the blizz dev love including ranged interrupt on short CD, totems that allow you to heal & cleanse (PCT) while moving, short CD to cast & move, dps built into my healing rain, mana efficient, bloodlust, good hero tree. Also R.Sham was the ONLY meta healer for 7 weeks this tier. The rest of my healers do not get as much blizz dev love, shout out for r. druid & h. pala esp this tier being in the dumpster. Can you interview more multiclass healers? not just a r.sham only healer?
Hey just remember these dungeons will come back in later seasons hope you're happy about that guys. I looooooooooove these dungeons so much I can't wait to see them again. You guys wanna explain CoT and SV to new people in midnight? It's gonna be sooooo much fun. Even more fun than now! /sarcasm /restingwitchface
Call of the Brood is disgusting. Fast cast time, and deals the damage way too fast.
Grim batol: the dungeon that is so much freaking overtuned that the tank looks like a DPS getting melee hits.I did a +10 on 618 ilvl (blood DK), pulling slowly in order to survive and got absolutely smashed anyway. I can't imagine how people manage to do the crazy first pull with two enforcers, dragon and the first pack. I almost get oneshot by just one pack of enforcer + guards ON A +10, HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO TANK THIS ON A +12
My biggest problem is that there is nothing to heal. You cannot heal to compensate for mistakes. If people make a mistake, they just die. Like, if I go do a +6-+7 with overgeared people that won't get instakilled by missed kick, I can easily pull 2.5-3.5 mil hps to compensate for their mistakes. Then I go to a 10 and I do 365k hps, because either people press their defensives and barely need any healing, or they get 100-0'd.
Then there's the stupid tickdown mechanics, biggest offender being 2nd lieutenant in DB. If your dps get chunked, you just have to let them die, cause he ticks so hard, and so often you need all cds for that, so you have none to spare to top dps up.
Lastly, way too much movement mechs. I am so done dodging swirlies (SV, GB) instead of healing.
3mln hps? cap
@kaliyvga1426 properly set up, Pres Evoker can push insane numbers in shortheal bursts, it's just once your cds are out your whole group dies cause chronoflame can't keep ppl up alone.
I usually don't comment but I had to when the dude said this is the worst dungeon pool ever. I think it is one of the BEST pools ever. Why? Well it comes back to common source of your complaints here: being unable to effectively pug high keys. This season feels more rewarding than any DF seasons including Season 3 where I got title because of the necessity of being organized. The coordination required to do high level keys is more rewarding than past seasons because it showcases individual skill and teamwork.
I understand most players do not want to put in the effort in organizing a static group but let's all be honest here with why you are complaining. You just want to do the highest level content and put minimal effort in by pugging.
With that said, I respect Quazii and for all he has done including his plater profile which was a literal game changer for me.
So many Disc Priests in M+ dungeons seldom do anything for the group, the idea its meta makes so many priests choose it thinking everyone wants them. Restoration Shamans are Far more Resilient, better toolkit, and predictable healing, with so many niche toolkit items for all kinds of issues how can we really compare.
The one i like the least is necrotic wake. It's so flimsy and so easy to do one mistake and it's all over. The first pull is pretty awful and tough to do safely. Those damn harvesters that don't want to move. It's a pain all around and if there is one mistake on a boss it immediately escalates the fight difficulty.
Stonevault i feel the timer is fine even if the dungeon has it's moments. Grim Batol is the same. I feel like the timer allows one slip up. But, necrotic wake is just too punishing.
I am talking about up to 11. I know there are scaling issues with the other two.
When you run a dungeon on Normal or Heroic the RP should play for story context. When you enter a key all RP should be disabled for the key. I quit playing and finally unsubed. I want it to go back to the way it was in S3 or S4 of DF, end of story, no small changes, just put it back to when it was fun plz. I'm a healer main who's been healing since TBC and keys since Legion, but I give up. I'm just playing other games now, if they ever fix it the way that I want then I'll come back, but not before.
1:42:12 Microsoft also has a “sort of “monopoly on FPS with call of duty. People will buy even if it’s shit. Same with WOW for MMORPGs. But FF14 has a lot of people moving still
That dungeon won't be fixed unless it's in another season and your complaints are futile
Healers? I thought it's mostly tank shortage.
This season is just phoned in tbh
Well this is what you sweats wanted.
Yeah I don't really get most of the Stone vault complaints... "This is fine with a good team but when my group plays badly this is harder".... Seems to make sense to me? What's the issue here?
kinda true. ppl always defend difficulty in wow. I posted in Izen's youtube video yesterday that Mythic raid is too difficult for too many players. I wasn't saying make it SUPER EASY, I was saying tone down the difficulty with some things to some degree. You know, like, maybe make it 15% less difficult? Don't make it 50% easier. And I got stomped with 5+ comments saying "mythic SHOULD be hard" and "you must be a NOOB" etc. people are toxic and dumb, and then when they get what they say they want, they don't like it. the "you think you do but you don't" blizzard guy was kinda right... people think they want this or that, but when they get it they realize they don't want that actually lol
@@D2Mephistobut Mythic raid is fine and should be hard. It is the final form of content. Just don't Mythic raid. It is hard content for the people who want hard content.
There was nothing wrong with Healing in past seasons, but Blizzard caved to the people who cried that they didn't have enough to heal and now no one, including the people who cried liked healing.
The WoW devs are going down the same hole that killed OW where when trying to cater to everybody they aren't pleasing anyone. They need to recgonize that 1 group is going to be unhappy instead of passing off both groups trying to please everyone.
@@D2Mephisto y, it´s insecure people that want to show how good they are to strangers online for some reason. Especially for M+ it´s ridiculous, if it´s too easy for you just play a higher key...
for raid i strongly believe the way forward would be to make Mythic flexible and much easier to fit it and seperate the current fixed 20man as a new highest difficulty that is on the same item lockout as "easy" flex mythic but every boss gives some cosmetics/titles etc. And you could make it disable addon-functions and scale the ilvl of all playrs to be the same to gurantee the best tuning and make the world first race more competitve.
@@deseanroot75 your reply makes my point exactly. there are so many ppl who think the way you think. I disagree. which is ok. we don't have to agree. peace.
Imo i just hate tge boss designs. They just feel annoying overall to heal. Especially the bossess that doo dots into burst, junk is the least fun thing too heal.
For an Asian Rain has an incredibly fluent accent, its very dreamy xoxo
Sorry but this interview comes off to me as really whiney. This might be a hot take but the top 1% of content should not be puggable. I’d even go as far to say the top 5% shouldn’t be. This is first and foremost a social content game. You guys are constantly whining about how high level keys aren’t puggable. It shouldn’t be. Obviously my opinion.
The biggest issue this expansion so far, I 100% agree with you guys are the bugs and not addressing them quickly or at all.
Some valid insights, but the way Rain talks makes him sound like a whiner.
I quit healing because the vast majority Wow player base are unskilled, toxic and simply don't do what it takes to time keys. I am not going to spend my time healing players catching a softball with their face and then listen to them complain that it hurt. Not to mention the dungeon rotation are complete garbage. Season two is not looking much better. So.. keep enjoying having one less healer/tank in the player pool. I'm playing other games that don't have toxic whiners plaguing them.
As a Holy Priest, I usually don't dispel the debuffs in CoT, I let them time out, and I announce that folks need to position to avoid the orbs. I usually don't go beyond 10s, that might not work in higher keys.
But you can MD one…
They are too busy working on boring delves and player housing to make m plus fun
Quazii needs to learn how to talk slower. When he gets passionate, he speeds up and he starts skipping letters in words. I'm not a native English speaker and I have issues with understanding him.
Tanking should go back to being about threat generation rather than mitigation.
Healing should go back to being about mana management rather than throughput.
The problem with r sham is it’s throughout AND mana management
Nah terrible design overall, S2 looks no better. Until the devs understand that 90+% of keys are pugs and need to be treated as such, M+ will spiral down.
I have had a blast healing keys this season I am a little shy of 3k io, all 12s a few 13s. So not a high end player but also not a total scrub. I think the affix changes were fantastic. Yes they should make tanks a little less squishy, and the dungeon pool wasnt amazing. But I sure had fun logging in eveyday and gaming with the homies.
It's almost like there are 2 separate development teams for the game. One keeps making banger expansions and the other keeps making trash.
I had so much fun during Dragonflight season 3 as a tank player, blasting +15,16,17,18,19,20 keys as a brewmaster in PUGs. No problem. Any difficulty it was FUN. As long as everyone in the group pressed some utility sporadically whenever they felt like it was a good time to press it, like stuns, defensives and such, we could get to the end in time. Even with 15 deaths it was possible to recover and time it. I think i had around 2700-2800 mythic plus rating or something like this just by playing in PUGs. ZERO premades. Rarely anyone was leaving keys, it happened maybe once or twice for me the entire season that someone left, so far between i barely remember it happening. I was tanky, and i could sustain myself pretty good if i played good, and relied very little on the healer to carry me. Took season 4 off the game pretty much... And come back to War within, hyped! New expansion! Better talent trees! improved classes! NICE! and then...
Mythic plus season starts... Oh boy what a let down this was compared to season 3 DF. Couldnt pull big rarely ever, stuns did nothing except waste people kicks into the stun and casters start casting immedietly after the stun ends and have no kicks left to stop it.... NICE!. One cast and one tankbuster goes off, tank dead. OK.... Self sustain absolutely in the toilet, flushed down to the bottom of the ocean. Healing orbs for brewmaster does absolutely nothing, stagger is completely broken jojoing up in a second from just auto-hits from regular trash mobs. Gearing up barely changes anything, its just a struggle. Its BORING. Thats how i can summarize season 1 war within: BORING. It feels like im back in classic being 13 years old having to pull mobs ONE BY ONE, and healer needs to sit down and drink after 2 pulls. Such a slow snoozefest with oneshots left and right. DPS players dies all the time, tanks dies randomly to casts and tank busters randomly lining up by bad luck.
I did finish all the keys on 10-11 level in time eventually with premade guild group sitting in voice coms communicating defensives, kicks and other CC as perfectly as we could, and after we got the portals and the achievement from mythic plus and raid, everyone literally logged off, and have not logged in for a month and half, the guild is dead until season 2. And why is that? Because what used to be a fun end-game activity to do together has become a tedious grind and some tryhard sweatlord content.
And on top of being so un-fun, the loot was nerfed too! For an entire season i was not able to reach BIS gear, its a joke really. Still i dont have BIS on any of my characters and the season is almost over.
One more season like this, and im not playing season 3. I think ill just skip season 4 aswell and come back for next expansion. Im not paying a monthly sub to be stressed out and bored at the same time, because to get that feeling i can just work overtime at my job instead, and actually earn money and not lose money.
Earth elemental is external for tanks
?? getting earth elemental to eat tank busters is wildly inconsistent, and in some cases not possible. E.G. Subjugation is coded to only hit players. And tank busters are the only reason to use externals
@@MrTerikifacts
It's also insanely dangerous since the elemental doesn't position in a predictable way. @@MrTeriki
Maybe a little disingenuous complaining about a disc priest when you are a resto shaman and have had a great season 1. Spare a thought for the healers that have really struggled. Great discussion though.
For me this season is easily one of the best so far. I only do up to 10 or 11. And its challenging enough but still challenging only what you think is hard dungeons and easy ones. Its flipped on 10. Ara kara is a cluster fuck and almost untimable on a 10.
I don't know, but i do like healers in TWW. I did hated them a little on Dragonflight while you were forced to do damage and healing at the same time, now in TWW, you just have to heal, which you are supposed to do actually. What i would change a little is the speed of things going in M+, going a little back on the old dungeons while they took some time to complete gave you a different feeling. I know, not everybody has free time (me included), but i would rather do 1-2 dungeons a day than speed-running 10 in a day, understanding mostly nothing that happens and have no fun.
Also, they should really consider the Addons thing. This would make the game more difficult without them, which is nice from my point of view. Could this be done in some way that if the client detects you're using addons, reward you normally like it is now, or in the other way, if you're not using addons, give you some extra credits, currencies, items? Something extra as an reward. :)
You still have to damage as a healer in TWW*. As long as M+ is timed damage will always be required. A healer who damages and keeps the team alive >>>> a healer who does 3mil hps but no damage.
It is always going to be this way but now healing is just more miserable
Man…all this complaining about S1 is so strange to me. This season has been the most fun, most improvement, and most challenging season ever. It’s made me a better healer than any season before it. I’ve absolutely loved it.
@quazii I’m a nobody no where near title, but happy to talk about this from a different perspective.
You guys cried that you wanted to heal more and blizzard delivered. Now you cry that there is too much to heal. For once this is actually not blizzards fault.
Can't heal 1 shots dawg
Lmao another clown take. Tf is wrong with this community
Go away…
@@Valvad0ss healing was fine in Dragonflight. Yall ruined it by complaing.
@@Bordapatrol there was none in DF. But yall complained and Blizz added rot + aoe + heal debuffs damage to every pull. Blame yourself
Great video and insights.
However, M+ is undoubtedly the worst game mode ever invented in the history of the MMORPG genre and should be removed from WoW entirely. PvP can take its place on the vault. M+ is a mini-game with nothing to do with the Lore and is responsible for turning group content into the worst experience World of Warcraft has to offer. Take it out of retail and make it a mobile game. M+ is not fun, Dungeons are not fun. Raids are not fun when tanks overpull trash like they are on a clock causing unnecessary wipes, frustration, and wasted time. The poison spread throughout all group content due to the timer, IO scoring, and the competitiveness M+ brings is immeasurable. Cut the cord and move away from this incurable sweaty, smelly, and divisive disease.
M+ is the only reason many people play endgame wow. You don't like it you don't have to do it.
So basically you just want PvP? 😂😂😂
I think it’s time for you to take a break from the game, pal
I think you’re just bad at the game. It’s fine, I’m bad at some games too but I just don’t play them.
Mythic+ is the most boring content in the world. Also this isn't an mmo podcast when 95% of your videos are about mythic+, at that point it's a mythic+ podcast.
You could leave instead of being a miserable muppet
Thanks for telling us what to think, I'm sure Quazii will completely re-think all of his content, since the whole world revolves around you!
Just kidding, please get bent.
Opinions are subjective. I love M+ and its the only content I do. Raiding and PVP are the most boring content.
just don’t watch or listen to podcast episodes, straight up nobody cares. I promise your life will be better if you don’t engage with stuff you don’t enjoy or absolutely have to engage with.
It has more potential to carry the game then raiding does. Heroic raid is too easy and mythic 20 man requirement is too much. Raid is basically get the loot and then dip. M+ you can actually play at a high difficulty with a small group of friends for awhile.