Great video. Thank goodness we don't have everything extactly figured out. I spent most of my younger days doing exactly that. Now in my older years, I've realized the variablity is what makes the special moments when everything aligns perfectly for success much more memorable.
Great topic. 100% legit considerations. In my 30+ years of bowhunting, the original challenge still remains, and that is to get them as close as possible, NOT to see how far away I can hit one. Less distance the arrow travels, less reaction comes into play on very unpredictable animal movements. Over time the data should at least trend into more usable and less gray area information I would hope. Thanks for investing all the time to put the data into usable information, even if not immediately. Keep up the great work!
A fantastic discussion and so nice to see you back online Garrett. If there is a "zone of protection", it is plausible that this "zone" is magnified by louder noises. It is also plausible that faster objects make more noise but this would be interesting to prove - take the same arrow and shoot it at different quantifiable speeds and measure the decibels at a constant distance. If true, then a slower quieter arrow may reduce the zone of protection or even out a faster louder arrow at a given distance. It would seem for sure that reaction to arrow noise is impacting reactions more so than bow noise since the shot parallel to the animal versus perpendicular to it affects reaction. Great discussion and i look forward to more!
Great discussion. I have seen deer react in a seemingly more exaggerated manner when the report of the bow or crossbow is louder or more metallic in nature. My old bow emits a dull thump when shot. I shot a buck with it after stopping it with a bleat. The buck looked up at me and didn't move until my arrow had passed through his body. There has to be something to the nature of the noise that gets the deer moving. Thank you for all the time you put into this study.
This topic was discussed in one of the Bow Hunting October Whitetails videos with the Wensels and Rick Blase way back in the day and they concluded that under 18 yards your arrow would usually get to the deer before it had time to drop enough to evade the arrow and over 30 yards the sound of the bow didn’t seem to make the deer move as often. I doubt they spent as much time analyzing things as you did and their equipment was quite a bit different but it’s interesting to compare their take on it verses yours.
They are worth watching. Those guys were pioneers in bow hunting and bow hunting videos. Just think about what it would be like bow hunting without a GoPro. 😂. Plus they were funny dudes.
Some great data that really gets me thinking. The head up vs head down discussion makes total sense to me. I am going to be paying more attention to that in the future. Thanks for sharing.
I think that as the noise amplifies it causes the "its getting closer" fear response, I believe the sound is the key variable. Some can surely hear better some may be more on edge, it's not an exact science.
Garrett, thanks for sharing this. I’ve been following your channel for a while and appreciate your methodical and engineer-minded approach to hunting and gear. I’ve also been following ranch fairy for a while now and the data that Troy and the rocket man are gathering and sharing is just fantastic. This data driven conversation within the archery hunting world is one I hope to contribute to and can’t wait to hear/see more about it. One thought I just had: how about turkeys and their reactions? I’ve never really paid attention when watching bow shots at them but maybe there’s something interesting to glean there? Anyway, keep up the great work and congrats on your MN public land deer this year!
That's a good thought. I've only shot one with a bow before, and it didn't really move on a ~50 yard shot. Most of my turkey hunting now is with a shotgun.
Interesting discussion and a lot to think about. It seems the deeper I delve into this stuff the more I realize that every shot is different. Every animal is different. Shot placement seems to be the most important thing to determine lethality. For me, I want an arrow that isn't on one extreme or another. I tried heavy and I didn't like the trajectory and pin gaps. I don't want to go super light and have tuning issues or durability issues. I ended up with a 450 grain VF TKO with 23 grain insert and 125 grain head (14% FOC) and it's launching at 285 FPS out of my 62 pound Bowtech SR6 at 29" draw. It has been great for deer and I would have no reservations about using it for elk. In the past two years I've shot deer with Exodus, TOTA, and Grim Reaper Pro (1-3/8 mech) and they've all performed great and worked well. The only reason the Grim Reaper didn't get an exit was it was quartering away and it hit the far shoulder. I feel that most people would benefit from a basic, middle of the road setup with good quality components, and lots of practice! Shoot 3D courses with your hunting setup. Practice shooting from a stand/saddle/hill, etc. Be confident in your setup.
I think that's a great way of thinking. It's easy at times to discuss and focus on the minutia that might make a difference rather than simply putting in the time and reps.
Chuck Adams did an article on jumping the string in Outdoor Life or Field & Stream around 2001. I found that a pretty good article. Now with new equipment with the speeds they do, changes the game a little. All in all the animal's alertness & body language is key.
Great video. Another question to bring to the table is the volume of the sound. Possibly they hear the bow and they pay more attention then hear and react to the arrow. The faster the bow, louder the bow and the faster the arrow the louder the arrow. So a slower heavy arrow might have a quieter shot and not key them up to react as violently. Likewise how pressured is the deer, have they been shot at before and recognize the sound? So many variables. With the head up/down conversation, in addition to the ability to change center of mass, there's a possible difference of which senses have the most focus. Head up more attention to vision than hearing, head down more hearing than vision.
For sound waves, the disturbance is a change in air pressure, perhaps created by the oscillating cone inside a speaker or a vibrating tuning fork. Could the movement(vibration)of the arrow thru the air and the vibration of the bow/crossbow string upon realease be what the deer are sensing and allows them to jump the string.Could this explain why other deer jump the string at the same time,if they are in close proximity to the deer being shot at?
Head up vs head down is a big deal. If that head is down they can really get that spine low. While head is coming up and back is going down. Head up they don’t seem to get as low. I aim lower if head is down vs not as low if head is up
Great job Garrett. I also think reaction time Verys, like the fly and chop sticks or the ruler on the back of the hand Slow mo video of an arrow coming towards you. Then run at full speed, it's real interesting
Great video have you done any testing on sound of the bow in decibels? Also fletching types? Would be interesting to see the comparison with speed, sound, and distance. Thanks for all the great info.
Yes, if you pause at 7:03 you can see some of the bow noise decibel measurements based on arrow weight and speed from my bow and my wife's bow. I tested vane types as well in my Super Sabre vane review. In a nutshell, heavier is quieter, but only very marginally unless you're making huge swings. Within the range of "typcial" arrow weights for my setup bow nose was within a couple decibels and I couldn't perceive the difference in a blind test. With the mic at 40yds pointed at me, I couldn't not measure a difference with my 316 vs 287fps shots. But 253fps was marginally quieter tone of flight. My wife's 40# bow was substantially quieter than mine even with a 1000 grain arrow. Things that made the most dramatic difference in arrow flight were big feathers instead of vanes and vented vs solid broadheads. But some broadhead vents are louder than others.
@ranchfairy, Dr Barnette's frame of a biological "active zone of protection" is a very sound point for considering the probability and predictability of terminal arrow performance. I believe that wave dynamics research gives some explanation for the biological intuition/response for the animal behavior we are observing. Arrow frequency and its corresponding vibration variable is a good factor to consider. How that dynamic could be quantified in the field is a problem worth figuring out.
Hey buddy, I think you’re on the right track. I like the end of the video with the biblical quote. Yes camaraderie between archers is very important and we need to share our knowledge and experience with each other. I have shot long bows re-curves compounds with no sites and fingers, compounds with sights and a release. I have shot all types of broad heads, light arrows, heavy arrows. Shot indoor archery competition 3-D archery all of it. My best blood trails have been with inch and a half two blade fixed heads. I believe a mid to heavier arrow with a cut on contact Broadhead . That’s very strong of high-quality steel is the best arrow set up for hunting. I’ve shot five deer from 50 to 55 yards 145 yards 135 yards. My shortest tracks of an animal have been with two bladed heads because they go through so fast. Critical point I believe a 500 to 600 grain arrow is great for Whitetail deer. I’m shooting 630 grains this year with an inch and a half broadhead then I got another set up that’s about 10 grains lighter with an inch and eighth broadhead. I believe in a broad head that has a longer leading edge for a better blood trail. Angle of attack I think the ranch ferry says helps out with more cutting surface arrow flight and how straight it gets coming out of your bow and how it gets corrected. The fastest is the best for Great penetration. I believe in a high front of Center I’m shooting 26% at the moment if a guy was shooting 435 to 450 grain cut on contact in 60 to 70 pounds I still suggest a two blade or a two blade with a bleeder. I myself like arrow/broadhead integrity,pass through penetration great blood trails and great arrow flight . And camaraderie between the bow hunters. Learn your equipment and hone your shooting skills. Become one with that bow and become a great woodsman. Learn and know the animals you hunt . Peace y’all
Great conversation on the zone of protection. I truly think that zone will vary day to day for the animal. I don’t think there is a specific answer. Myself for example, I know I’ve reacted differently at different times in life when things have come at me. I think it goes to a neurological level of, does the brain connect the sound with danger and what action is needed to avoid the danger. I’ve avoided danger with quick twitch muscle reactions not knowing what I’m doing and the opposite holds true as well.
Just getting to this video now, great stuff! Just had a buck duck at 17 yards and i adjusted the following week and missed low on a doe at 27..wonder if they react differently (bucks vs does)? I also wonder if arrow speed affects how loud an arrow is, thus changing the size of the defense "bubble" that was talked about.. Also faster arrow means lighter arrow which could mean louder bow since the arrow may not be able to absorb as much energy as a heavier arrow affecting how loud the bow is🤔
I've done some testing on this. Speed does play a role. It'll vary based on the specifics, but in general slower does translate to quieter in flight. I can shoot vented heads and feathers much quieter with my traditional bow compared to compound. When I was testing my Super Sabre vanes they were about the same sound at 285 and 315ish. But at 240ish they were a little quieter. But of course that's a balance with trajectory and reaction time.
Also I tested a similar suite of light to heavy arrows with my old Mathews v31, from 400gr to 900gr. From 400-650, there was only a difference of a couple dB, not enough to even really tell in a blind test. At 900+ grains it was another few dB quieter but quite slow. Interestingly though, even that super heavy arrow was not nearly as quiet as my wife's bow shooting a 400 grain arrow. Her low poundage and draw mean there's less energy overall in the system, which means less available to be translated I to excess noise at the shot.
Great stuff! IMHO... I really believe you can compensate for most of these issues by making good choices and simply changing up our shooting practice before the season: 1) Practice from a tree stand with ALL the gear you hunt with. 2) ALWAYS aim for the bottom third of the deer target 3) Consider ANY shot that hits above the horizontal center line of your deer target as a BAD HIT! I also like to set up multiple targets and only shoot one arrow per target. Its like I tell my kid... you got an eight inch balloon inside that deer, pop the balloon and its all good, miss the balloon and Dad is going to have a long day! Final thought's... practice like this and take ONLY CLOSE HIGH PERCENAGE SHOTS!
Ya know, that bottom third hits only that your talking about on your targets is really the most important thing I've found with killing deer with arrows....
Here's a theory to look at. We already know the lighter faster arrows are louder, so maybe the z.o.p. is bigger that a heavier, and more silent arrow. Thinking about a threat assessment from the deer. Kinda like a lion stalking up on one when they are moving slow it doesn't trigger the z.o.p. but the pounce does.
Its is the sound of the arrow! Not to bow. We were having trouble sighting in a bow they were going into this berm. I stood down range to watch where they were going. Thats when I discover how load an arrow sounds comeing at you sounds like. have you ever hear a shotgun slug going over your head. sounds alot like that. They hear it comeing. Great job in this presentation. My calculation were off. I thought it was 30 yards or .33 seconds. That is what my videos show. BUT your data set show they are starting to react even sooner. My study was with an old action camera at 1080 @30fps. Haven't got to try my new camera 4K at 60fps
Yea the arrow noise is certainly startling to hear. One of the variables is that if they are reacting to the arrow and not the bow, at which point do they start reacting to the arrow? Which is where Darrel was leading with his concept. Assuming it's bow noise gives a true worst case scenario. Then if they ignore the bow, it can only help. I've gotten a few messages and videos sent in on longer shots with slower bows that would point to arrow noise being the key factor on those shots.
I wonder if the reason that the deer didnt move when it was stopped with the mouth call was that its senses were focused on figuring out what made the noise. It wasn't paying attention to the noise of the shot or arrow. But the other deer that did jump were paying attention to everything around them which is what caused them to jump the string. It would be an interesting test to see how deer react to a shot when their attention is focused on something.
It could be. That buck that I shot frontal was also pretty fixated on me and still tried to move. He was just too close he couldn't move very far. I had a similar experience a couple years ago on a quartering to where the deer was looking my way and still jumped, but the arrow had still hit its mark. Their heads were both up while looking so it also helped minimize their actual movement. One thing I'm very curious about my wife's setup is that it's just so quiet. I mean it's quieter than my traditional bows, so that could be playing a really large role as well.
@@DIYSportsman oh yeah, I forgot about that shot. I hunt from ground blinds and I don’t seem to have an issue with string jumping. I am going to try and film some this year and see how they are reacting.
My question is that if the noise of the bow gets the animals attention right before they hear the arrow coming with the heavier setup the bow should be quieter which would skew the results of the data right?
I have tested this. The graph assumes worst case which is where they start responding immediately to the bow. If the bow was really quiet in theory, yes, you'd have a bigger safety window. Now, when I tested my mathews with arrows ranging several hundred grains in weight, the sound only changed by a decibel or two, which is so close that most can't tell the difference blindfolded. I'll be putting a video showing the results soon. Now, my wife's rig was vastly quieter, likely due the fact that she's shooting way lower energy overall at only 40# and 25" draw, and a "heavy for her" 400 grains.
Great topic. After many years of miss placed shots I will never shoot any bow at a deer with its head down!!! When I use to shoot at them with the head down I lost about 15% of them due to them ducking the shot! I always try to get them to stop now to make sure the head is up! Now that I have changed my ways I haven't had a bad shot yet!!
Any possibility a slower projectile is louder during flight than a faster projectile? Is it possible to even see if there is a decibel difference at different speeds?
From all of the testing I've done with downrange microphones, it's pretty rare to see a slower projectile be louder in the same design. Now, a slow arrow with high profile feathers and vented brosdheads might very well be much louder than low profile vanes and a compact non-vented head going much faster. Also I've noticed decidel readings are very hard to decipher downrange. Sound testing is goofy... a peak reading doesn't necessarily describe the overall tone or sound profile, and it can vary depending on exactly how far from the meter the arrow passes. So usually I run the recording through Adobe audition and look at the frequency spectrum for volume in the 3-8kHz range. Some vanes have a quieter zone and then reach a speed at which they start to develop a higher pitched hiss.
@@DIYSportsman that was just about the most comprehensive explanation I could have ever expected. Really appreciate the work you do and the videos you’ve put out.
Great info Garrett. So, why do animals jump in the first place? They don't know about arrows. What makes them think they have to get out of Dodge? Watching deer in my yard they hear stuff that you would think make them come unglued, but it doesn't. Black birds and bees are thoughts.
I think the sound of the bow/arrow is just so much different than most natural sounds they hear on a regular basis. A big branch randomly falling out of a tree could be one of those examples where they startle and bolt off a ways. Because it's very abrupt and unexpected.
Yes, still more or less the same thoughts. Some of the ideas in the podcast are very hard to test for the reason that you can't have a control group on an individual shot, so you can't totally remove the behavioral influence of a particular animal. I did pick up a high speed camera, though I'm not sure if it's something I'd bring hunting yet due to the logistics and lighting required. I still try to strike a balance between staying reasonably quiet, reasonably fast, keep shots as close as possible, and prioritize perfect arrow flight.
Everything I've learned in developing TAP String Stops and in studying bow/arrow noise supports what is being said in this video. Some of the key points that I firmly believe in: (drawn only from my many years of experience with Compound bows) 1) Arrow speed DOES matter! Especially at ranges of 20-25 yards and less. In my experience deer react just as quickly to the bow shot noise from slower bows (quieter) as they do faster (louder) bows... in MOST cases even a "quiet" bow is more than loud enough to cause a deer to physically react (drop)... so, having a significant amount of additional arrow speed increases the odds of lethal hits at distances of 25 yards or less (in MOST cases! -- there will always be some anomalies that occur). 2) Building off of point #1 ... it's BOW noise.... NOT arrow noise that is the key factor leading to deer reacting to the shot at these shorter ranges. At ranges of 30-35 yards and beyond the arrow noise plays an increasingly greater role in deer reaction to the shot and I think most people are in agreement with that perspective. 3) The dominant FREQUENCY range of the bow shot noise AND arrow flight noise DOES play a role as well.... how big of a role is difficult to say and in my opinion will never be fully determined! But it DOES matter in my experience. Higher frequencies don't carry as far in open air or penetrate surrounding objects as well as lower frequencies.... higher frequencies though can be perceived as more alarming to wild game and are perceived as "louder" than their actual amplitude would suggest (human hearing perceives the same way)... so, in my view there must be a "sweet spot" range of dominant frequencies that are most conducive to the bowhunter in terms of limiting deer's reaction to the shot.
I'm glad I'm not the only one whose ears ring in complete silence....low poundage and semi heavy arrow...they don't seam to react...heavy puondage bows seem to be louder in my opinion
I think that's valid. My wife's low poundage bow and short draw is so much quieter than my rig, even if I shoot an arrow double her arrow weight. Even if both are equally efficient and put the same percentage of wasted energy into noise, the one with more stored energy would release a greater amount as noise.
During testing of my heavy crossbow bolts, I stood down by my target and had my cousin shoot my crossbow so I could see how loud my crossbow bolts were in flight. They sounded EXACTLY like a small flock of birds flaring their wings for a landing. I have never had a deer jump or drop using those bolts, and I think it’s because they sound like something natural.
The idea of a protection zone is an interesting hypothesis but seems really hard to validate even using statistics. I also feel like it can't ignore arrow speed given an animal's ability to react isn't infinitely fast and is likely a fixed reaction time. Given a fixed reaction time and a fixed zone of protection, I don't see how arrow speed doesn't matter? What am I not understanding?
If the zone of protection is fixed, yes you are correct. If the size of the active protection zone varies with the sound of the arrow, then it is possible that a slower arrow can get closer to the deer, making arrow speed less relevant. The real world Iron Fist active protection example can only go so far. Great comment.
Animals that are closely packed in a herd are connected in The Ether in all move together just like birds in a flock do not affect when they move birds outside of that zone
After the season has been open for a while in a certain number of deer across the county have been killed the rest of the herd is informed that the Hunt is on and they become jumpier more in the later season
Being I worked with horses, animals who's eyes work pretty close to deer eyes, I think you overlooked the fact the lighted knocks will catch their eye n cause a reaction? They see yo the. Side very well
I don't know, I hear that comment a lot but the light is pretty shielded from the front. When I film from the animals point of view it's much tougher to see the light than it is from the back. That, along with the example of the one doe having her head buried in the weeds but jumping, and another doe looking right at us and not jumping, make me think that if visual is part of it, which it could be, it's likely not much of a contributing factor compared to sound.
When some horses see anything move, a large fly, a stone flying off a mower, they flinch. A lighted nock is much brighter to them than us. You've never had a nock pop on in your quiver n you see a deer 100 yds away you know didn't catch your wind, stomp, blow n run? I hunted North zone in NY were the pressure is, n I have seen that. Might as well be a Lazer beam for them, combined with the alert already from the sound of the bow. Combination freak out. Sound n movement? Double whammy= white tail flying.
I think we are all missing a very important variable . The visual of the bow going off , then the arrow in flight. Deer have a much better ability to pick up movement than humans. It's a rods vs cones thing thats over my head , but it's solid scientific data that they pick up movement better than we do. My anecdotal evidence , and I don't have video to back it up, comes from living in a state (Ga) that has a very long rifle season. Over the years , I've had deer in eyesight when a rifle goes off. I'm talking so close I almost jump out of my stand ! Deer , for the most part, are oblivious to that sound . I've only had one case from memory of a deer even flinching, and that happened 3 days ago from a ground blind w corn on the ground, in my backyard . A shot went off across the road that made me jump almost off my stool. That 2.5 yr old buck at 15 yds , tensed up like it was waiting for impact for a split second, then continued to scarf corn . It doesn't matter how fast the speed of sound is if the deer reacts to movement from the bow, then arrow. I've also tested deer at close range just to check my theory. Calm feeding deer will often come unglued at me throwing a pinecone with almost no detectable noise . I get it, not much can be done about the movement of the shot or arrow , except a solitary deer ,if you can shoot when the deer is looking away or there is an obstruction hiding their line of sight to you. The sight variable , imho, is as big as sound. It's just not a multi million dollar industry like sound dampening. Food for thought.
There definitely could be something there. I know a few people have brought up lighted nock visuals. I've done a LOT of video work with the camera at the target looking back, mainly for sound capture. Though, when I do the visual influence is usually pretty minor, even with a lighted nock. There's almost no body movement, unless you drop your bow arm at which point the arrow is already there on a short shot. Arrow profile is very small. Can see fletching a little but often I need to go frame by frame to really see it well in the video. Now, I do 100% think that the movement getting to full draw is critical and can give you up and put them on edge in prep for the shot. Definitely should do some more testing on visual impacts.
@@DIYSportsman I think the difference is our ability to pick up movement, especially when relying on video equipment to record it , compared to an animal that's life depends on its ability to identify danger coming. Almost every vid I've looked at, you can tell the deer is identifying a visual. I just watched a vid last night from Midwest whitetails. The deer was nicknamed floppy. He had serious ear issues and ignored all grunts or other communications to stop him for a shot for years , as the guy chased this deer. He was deaf as a door knob. That deer reacted to the shot when the guy finally got a shot . He spined the deer as it dropped . Pay very close attention. Another is the vid about deer reacting differently whether head up or head down done by another youtuber . In that vid, he shows 2 deer in the same frame . The deer with its head up reacts by sight. You can clearly see that deer slightly lift its head as it focuses on the movement of the shot . The evidence is out there. We are just focusing in how far the deer drops instead of the beginning of the reaction that starts the drop.
Are you a NASA engineer? All this fantastic information is very interesting. There are so many variables in the field there will never be an absolute answer to some of these questions on reactive animals
I believe Darrel has done work for the DOD. There's a Hunting Public video where he gives a little more background about his experience with hypersonic projectiles.
Head down don't shoot! They duck the most when their head is down. They duck the arrow sound more than the bow sound. If they could see the arrow it is even worse. I know some guys that are going back to camouflage fletchings just so they can't see it coming.
It kind of makes you wonder if when hunting a relaxed, feeding deer, if you'd be better off giving a quiet "meep" so they stop and put their head up. Perhaps head up and moderately alert is better than head down and relaxed.
You may be on to something baw. The most jaw dropping dodge of an arrow I have ever seen was on a two year old doe contently feeding on acorns 25 yds away. I was stunned. Conversely, I shot a fairly alert 6pt last year at 35 yds and he barely dropped at all. I almost didn't shoot because I figured he would react too much. He didn't budge till the arrow got pretty close. I was almost 30' up.
I think it matters if the deer have previously been shot at as well. Take a deer that has been hit and survived..... He may me more cautious of the sound of an arrow.
I will plan to do some shooting in lower light with lighted nocks and camera at target to see how visible they are. I've heard that before as well. It'd be interesting to see if a fatter nock like a nockturnal has a different appearance from the front than a smaller nock like the firenock.
@@DIYSportsman I switched to regular nocks this season I didn't harvest a deer with my compound but my crossbow had regular nocks which is the tool I used to shoot a 7 point. At roughly 20 yards I aimed at the heart while quartering away and when I recovered the deer it was still high mid lungs even some liver and my xbow was dead on he came in head down also. But he came through super slow and looking in all directions ( I was extremely close to buck bedding sitting on the ground tucked into a pine tree ) you guys are onto something I'm curious on a follow up video. Keep up the good work!
Since we're below the speed of sound, they'll always hear the bow first. With a microphone at the target the noise it picks up is Thump, WhoooOOOSH. But depending on distance and how loud the bow is, I do think the arrow could be much more startling.
Put camera with a mic near a feeder and see what you hear. If the bow is muffled at say 20 yards then see if the reaction starts at that sound of the muffed bow if the deer does not react at that point see when the deer starts to react.
Until archery is as fast or faster than sound deer react always. How much is a variable that is undetermined and situations apply this is always going to be an unknown. Rich is a great dude and i love his channel but he is also new to crossbow and archery hunting. He has lots of great ideas and knowledge but he is not perfect no one is. Whom ever says though that animals do not react does not pay attention. They always move sound of bow or arrow they are moving. Really this is why plan B arrows and bolts is great. You hit they die you miss they live two both best cases of scenarios. The unknown variables thats hunting!
I have a different outlook on long range archery kills. Do they capture the essence of bow hunting? No. Are they ethical? Absolutely given the right equipment and this is mathematically provable. My recurve shoots a 600gr arrow at 155fps. My crossbow shoots a 500gr bolt at 440fps. A 20 yard shot with my recurve on a deer would be perfectly ethical and is commonly done. However what if I told you that my crossbow can reach a target 85 yards away in the same time my recurve reaches a 20 yard target? The only difference is the crossbow bolt has 5x the energy and is too far for the deer to react to the sound. The 85 yard crossbow shot is WAY more ethical than a 20 yard shot with the recurve. If we're going to discuss the ethics of long range shots with modern archery equipment then we will have to question every single shot taken with traditional equipment.
That's a good perspective. You often hear similar arguments with rifles vs any kind of archery. Of course then you're talking totally different seasons etc. I know for my traditional hunts, even if I'm proficient at a given range this type of analysis will really play into which shots I do or don't take.
Just given those speeds and not factoring in speed erosion. The crossbow takes .19 seconds to go 85 yards, in .19 seconds the trad would shoot 29.45 yards. The time to target on the 20 yard shot is .13 seconds. The faster arrow will always slow down more in flight so your longer shot will probably take double the the time. It’s not a significant difference but it’s still not the same
Great video. Thank goodness we don't have everything extactly figured out. I spent most of my younger days doing exactly that. Now in my older years, I've realized the variablity is what makes the special moments when everything aligns perfectly for success much more memorable.
I'll second that! It's called hunting, not gathering for a reason :)
@@DigtoDef Yeah, I see them on TV shooting at black powder Muzzleloader range.
Great topic. 100% legit considerations. In my 30+ years of bowhunting, the original challenge still remains, and that is to get them as close as possible, NOT to see how far away I can hit one. Less distance the arrow travels, less reaction comes into play on very unpredictable animal movements. Over time the data should at least trend into more usable and less gray area information I would hope. Thanks for investing all the time to put the data into usable information, even if not immediately. Keep up the great work!
Intelligent dialog with actual documented data to analyze...this is what moves hunters (and society) forward for the common good. Great video.
A fantastic discussion and so nice to see you back online Garrett. If there is a "zone of protection", it is plausible that this "zone" is magnified by louder noises. It is also plausible that faster objects make more noise but this would be interesting to prove - take the same arrow and shoot it at different quantifiable speeds and measure the decibels at a constant distance. If true, then a slower quieter arrow may reduce the zone of protection or even out a faster louder arrow at a given distance. It would seem for sure that reaction to arrow noise is impacting reactions more so than bow noise since the shot parallel to the animal versus perpendicular to it affects reaction. Great discussion and i look forward to more!
Great discussion. I have seen deer react in a seemingly more exaggerated manner when the report of the bow or crossbow is louder or more metallic in nature. My old bow emits a dull thump when shot. I shot a buck with it after stopping it with a bleat. The buck looked up at me and didn't move until my arrow had passed through his body. There has to be something to the nature of the noise that gets the deer moving. Thank you for all the time you put into this study.
This topic was discussed in one of the Bow Hunting October Whitetails videos with the Wensels and Rick Blase way back in the day and they concluded that under 18 yards your arrow would usually get to the deer before it had time to drop enough to evade the arrow and over 30 yards the sound of the bow didn’t seem to make the deer move as often. I doubt they spent as much time analyzing things as you did and their equipment was quite a bit different but it’s interesting to compare their take on it verses yours.
I remember watching those back in the day. Will have to see if I can get my hands on some of those old videos and watch again.
They are worth watching. Those guys were pioneers in bow hunting and bow hunting videos. Just think about what it would be like bow hunting without a GoPro. 😂. Plus they were funny dudes.
Some great data that really gets me thinking. The head up vs head down discussion makes total sense to me. I am going to be paying more attention to that in the future. Thanks for sharing.
This is the type of discussion we need more of. Absolutely on point and is progressing the discipline. This is the good work.
I think that as the noise amplifies it causes the "its getting closer" fear response, I believe the sound is the key variable. Some can surely hear better some may be more on edge, it's not an exact science.
Garrett, thanks for sharing this. I’ve been following your channel for a while and appreciate your methodical and engineer-minded approach to hunting and gear. I’ve also been following ranch fairy for a while now and the data that Troy and the rocket man are gathering and sharing is just fantastic. This data driven conversation within the archery hunting world is one I hope to contribute to and can’t wait to hear/see more about it. One thought I just had: how about turkeys and their reactions? I’ve never really paid attention when watching bow shots at them but maybe there’s something interesting to glean there? Anyway, keep up the great work and congrats on your MN public land deer this year!
That's a good thought. I've only shot one with a bow before, and it didn't really move on a ~50 yard shot. Most of my turkey hunting now is with a shotgun.
@@DIYSportsman that’s a heck of a shot taking out a turkey at ~50! Turkeys can move so fast.
Interesting discussion and a lot to think about. It seems the deeper I delve into this stuff the more I realize that every shot is different. Every animal is different. Shot placement seems to be the most important thing to determine lethality. For me, I want an arrow that isn't on one extreme or another. I tried heavy and I didn't like the trajectory and pin gaps. I don't want to go super light and have tuning issues or durability issues. I ended up with a 450 grain VF TKO with 23 grain insert and 125 grain head (14% FOC) and it's launching at 285 FPS out of my 62 pound Bowtech SR6 at 29" draw. It has been great for deer and I would have no reservations about using it for elk. In the past two years I've shot deer with Exodus, TOTA, and Grim Reaper Pro (1-3/8 mech) and they've all performed great and worked well. The only reason the Grim Reaper didn't get an exit was it was quartering away and it hit the far shoulder.
I feel that most people would benefit from a basic, middle of the road setup with good quality components, and lots of practice! Shoot 3D courses with your hunting setup. Practice shooting from a stand/saddle/hill, etc. Be confident in your setup.
I think that's a great way of thinking. It's easy at times to discuss and focus on the minutia that might make a difference rather than simply putting in the time and reps.
Aim for the Heart, increases the percentage of vital hits if they squat or not.
Chuck Adams did an article on jumping the string in Outdoor Life or Field & Stream around 2001. I found that a pretty good article. Now with new equipment with the speeds they do, changes the game a little. All in all the animal's alertness & body language is key.
Great video. Another question to bring to the table is the volume of the sound. Possibly they hear the bow and they pay more attention then hear and react to the arrow. The faster the bow, louder the bow and the faster the arrow the louder the arrow. So a slower heavy arrow might have a quieter shot and not key them up to react as violently.
Likewise how pressured is the deer, have they been shot at before and recognize the sound? So many variables.
With the head up/down conversation, in addition to the ability to change center of mass, there's a possible difference of which senses have the most focus. Head up more attention to vision than hearing, head down more hearing than vision.
I’m a firm believer that at those lower light shots they hear the bow/arrow and the lighted nocks only help the deer see/process it faster
For sound waves, the disturbance is a change in air pressure, perhaps created by the oscillating cone inside a speaker or a vibrating tuning fork. Could the movement(vibration)of the arrow thru the air and the vibration of the bow/crossbow string upon realease be what the deer are sensing and allows them to jump the string.Could this explain why other deer jump the string at the same time,if they are in close proximity to the deer being shot at?
Head up vs head down is a big deal. If that head is down they can really get that spine low. While head is coming up and back is going down. Head up they don’t seem to get as low. I aim lower if head is down vs not as low if head is up
Great job Garrett. I also think reaction time Verys, like the fly and chop sticks or the ruler on the back of the hand
Slow mo video of an arrow coming towards you. Then run at full speed, it's real interesting
Great video have you done any testing on sound of the bow in decibels? Also fletching types? Would be interesting to see the comparison with speed, sound, and distance. Thanks for all the great info.
Yes, if you pause at 7:03 you can see some of the bow noise decibel measurements based on arrow weight and speed from my bow and my wife's bow. I tested vane types as well in my Super Sabre vane review. In a nutshell, heavier is quieter, but only very marginally unless you're making huge swings. Within the range of "typcial" arrow weights for my setup bow nose was within a couple decibels and I couldn't perceive the difference in a blind test. With the mic at 40yds pointed at me, I couldn't not measure a difference with my 316 vs 287fps shots. But 253fps was marginally quieter tone of flight. My wife's 40# bow was substantially quieter than mine even with a 1000 grain arrow. Things that made the most dramatic difference in arrow flight were big feathers instead of vanes and vented vs solid broadheads. But some broadhead vents are louder than others.
@ranchfairy, Dr Barnette's frame of a biological "active zone of protection" is a very sound point for considering the probability and predictability of terminal arrow performance. I believe that wave dynamics research gives some explanation for the biological intuition/response for the animal behavior we are observing. Arrow frequency and its corresponding vibration variable is a good factor to consider. How that dynamic could be quantified in the field is a problem worth figuring out.
Hey buddy, I think you’re on the right track. I like the end of the video with the biblical quote. Yes camaraderie between archers is very important and we need to share our knowledge and experience with each other. I have shot long bows re-curves compounds with no sites and fingers, compounds with sights and a release.
I have shot all types of broad heads, light arrows, heavy arrows. Shot indoor archery competition 3-D archery all of it. My best blood trails have been with inch and a half two blade fixed heads. I believe a mid to heavier arrow with a cut on contact Broadhead . That’s very strong of high-quality steel is the best arrow set up for hunting. I’ve shot five deer from 50 to 55 yards 145 yards 135 yards. My shortest tracks of an animal have been with two bladed heads because they go through so fast. Critical point I believe a 500 to 600 grain arrow is great for Whitetail deer. I’m shooting 630 grains this year with an inch and a half broadhead then I got another set up that’s about 10 grains lighter with an inch and eighth broadhead. I believe in a broad head that has a longer leading edge for a better blood trail. Angle of attack I think the ranch ferry says helps out with more cutting surface arrow flight and how straight it gets coming out of your bow and how it gets corrected. The fastest is the best for Great penetration. I believe in a high front of Center I’m shooting 26% at the moment if a guy was shooting 435 to 450 grain cut on contact in 60 to 70 pounds I still suggest a two blade or a two blade with a bleeder.
I myself like arrow/broadhead integrity,pass through penetration great blood trails and great arrow flight .
And camaraderie between the bow hunters. Learn your equipment and hone your shooting skills. Become one with that bow and become a great woodsman. Learn and know the animals you hunt .
Peace y’all
Great conversation on the zone of protection. I truly think that zone will vary day to day for the animal. I don’t think there is a specific answer. Myself for example, I know I’ve reacted differently at different times in life when things have come at me. I think it goes to a neurological level of, does the brain connect the sound with danger and what action is needed to avoid the danger. I’ve avoided danger with quick twitch muscle reactions not knowing what I’m doing and the opposite holds true as well.
Could it be that the deer is picking up on a pressure wave that could be preceeding the arrow?That could maybe explain some of this.
Amazing work!!! Don’t ever stop the research!
Just getting to this video now, great stuff! Just had a buck duck at 17 yards and i adjusted the following week and missed low on a doe at 27..wonder if they react differently (bucks vs does)?
I also wonder if arrow speed affects how loud an arrow is, thus changing the size of the defense "bubble" that was talked about..
Also faster arrow means lighter arrow which could mean louder bow since the arrow may not be able to absorb as much energy as a heavier arrow affecting how loud the bow is🤔
I've done some testing on this. Speed does play a role. It'll vary based on the specifics, but in general slower does translate to quieter in flight. I can shoot vented heads and feathers much quieter with my traditional bow compared to compound. When I was testing my Super Sabre vanes they were about the same sound at 285 and 315ish. But at 240ish they were a little quieter. But of course that's a balance with trajectory and reaction time.
Also I tested a similar suite of light to heavy arrows with my old Mathews v31, from 400gr to 900gr. From 400-650, there was only a difference of a couple dB, not enough to even really tell in a blind test. At 900+ grains it was another few dB quieter but quite slow. Interestingly though, even that super heavy arrow was not nearly as quiet as my wife's bow shooting a 400 grain arrow. Her low poundage and draw mean there's less energy overall in the system, which means less available to be translated I to excess noise at the shot.
Great stuff! IMHO... I really believe you can compensate for most of these issues by making good choices and simply changing up our shooting practice before the season: 1) Practice from a tree stand with ALL the gear you hunt with. 2) ALWAYS aim for the bottom third of the deer target 3) Consider ANY shot that hits above the horizontal center line of your deer target as a BAD HIT! I also like to set up multiple targets and only shoot one arrow per target. Its like I tell my kid... you got an eight inch balloon inside that deer, pop the balloon and its all good, miss the balloon and Dad is going to have a long day! Final thought's... practice like this and take ONLY CLOSE HIGH PERCENAGE SHOTS!
Ya know, that bottom third hits only that your talking about on your targets is really the most important thing I've found with killing deer with arrows....
54 years of bowhunting here has taught me that hoofed animals are far more likely to jump the string if their head is down vs up when you shoot.
Great video Garrett keep them coming
Can you please share your spreadsheet?
This is very fascinating. Thank you for sharing
this discussion was great.
what if you could create a non-lethal paint ball and match the db on the shot ?
What a great point
Here's a theory to look at. We already know the lighter faster arrows are louder, so maybe the z.o.p. is bigger that a heavier, and more silent arrow. Thinking about a threat assessment from the deer. Kinda like a lion stalking up on one when they are moving slow it doesn't trigger the z.o.p. but the pounce does.
Its is the sound of the arrow! Not to bow. We were having trouble sighting in a bow they were going into this berm. I stood down range to watch where they were going. Thats when I discover how load an arrow sounds comeing at you sounds like. have you ever hear a shotgun slug going over your head. sounds alot like that. They hear it comeing. Great job in this presentation. My calculation were off. I thought it was 30 yards or .33 seconds. That is what my videos show. BUT your data set show they are starting to react even sooner. My study was with an old action camera at 1080 @30fps. Haven't got to try my new camera 4K at 60fps
Yea the arrow noise is certainly startling to hear. One of the variables is that if they are reacting to the arrow and not the bow, at which point do they start reacting to the arrow? Which is where Darrel was leading with his concept. Assuming it's bow noise gives a true worst case scenario. Then if they ignore the bow, it can only help. I've gotten a few messages and videos sent in on longer shots with slower bows that would point to arrow noise being the key factor on those shots.
I wonder if the reason that the deer didnt move when it was stopped with the mouth call was that its senses were focused on figuring out what made the noise. It wasn't paying attention to the noise of the shot or arrow. But the other deer that did jump were paying attention to everything around them which is what caused them to jump the string. It would be an interesting test to see how deer react to a shot when their attention is focused on something.
It could be. That buck that I shot frontal was also pretty fixated on me and still tried to move. He was just too close he couldn't move very far. I had a similar experience a couple years ago on a quartering to where the deer was looking my way and still jumped, but the arrow had still hit its mark. Their heads were both up while looking so it also helped minimize their actual movement. One thing I'm very curious about my wife's setup is that it's just so quiet. I mean it's quieter than my traditional bows, so that could be playing a really large role as well.
@@DIYSportsman oh yeah, I forgot about that shot. I hunt from ground blinds and I don’t seem to have an issue with string jumping. I am going to try and film some this year and see how they are reacting.
My question is that if the noise of the bow gets the animals attention right before they hear the arrow coming with the heavier setup the bow should be quieter which would skew the results of the data right?
I have tested this. The graph assumes worst case which is where they start responding immediately to the bow. If the bow was really quiet in theory, yes, you'd have a bigger safety window. Now, when I tested my mathews with arrows ranging several hundred grains in weight, the sound only changed by a decibel or two, which is so close that most can't tell the difference blindfolded. I'll be putting a video showing the results soon. Now, my wife's rig was vastly quieter, likely due the fact that she's shooting way lower energy overall at only 40# and 25" draw, and a "heavy for her" 400 grains.
Great topic. After many years of miss placed shots I will never shoot any bow at a deer with its head down!!! When I use to shoot at them with the head down I lost about 15% of them due to them ducking the shot! I always try to get them to stop now to make sure the head is up! Now that I have changed my ways I haven't had a bad shot yet!!
You are 100% there. All the only that have ducked my arrow had their head down. Has to do with muscle loading
Any possibility a slower projectile is louder during flight than a faster projectile?
Is it possible to even see if there is a decibel difference at different speeds?
From all of the testing I've done with downrange microphones, it's pretty rare to see a slower projectile be louder in the same design. Now, a slow arrow with high profile feathers and vented brosdheads might very well be much louder than low profile vanes and a compact non-vented head going much faster. Also I've noticed decidel readings are very hard to decipher downrange. Sound testing is goofy... a peak reading doesn't necessarily describe the overall tone or sound profile, and it can vary depending on exactly how far from the meter the arrow passes. So usually I run the recording through Adobe audition and look at the frequency spectrum for volume in the 3-8kHz range. Some vanes have a quieter zone and then reach a speed at which they start to develop a higher pitched hiss.
@@DIYSportsman that was just about the most comprehensive explanation I could have ever expected.
Really appreciate the work you do and the videos you’ve put out.
Great info Garrett. So, why do animals jump in the first place? They don't know about arrows. What makes them think they have to get out of Dodge? Watching deer in my yard they hear stuff that you would think make them come unglued, but it doesn't. Black birds and bees are thoughts.
I think the sound of the bow/arrow is just so much different than most natural sounds they hear on a regular basis. A big branch randomly falling out of a tree could be one of those examples where they startle and bolt off a ways. Because it's very abrupt and unexpected.
@DIYSportman do you still have the same thoughts after a year? Any progress made on Darell's theory?
Yes, still more or less the same thoughts. Some of the ideas in the podcast are very hard to test for the reason that you can't have a control group on an individual shot, so you can't totally remove the behavioral influence of a particular animal. I did pick up a high speed camera, though I'm not sure if it's something I'd bring hunting yet due to the logistics and lighting required. I still try to strike a balance between staying reasonably quiet, reasonably fast, keep shots as close as possible, and prioritize perfect arrow flight.
@DIYSportsman do you believe the structural integrity of your arrow has decreased since going to a faster/lighter setup?
Everything I've learned in developing TAP String Stops and in studying bow/arrow noise supports what is being said in this video.
Some of the key points that I firmly believe in: (drawn only from my many years of experience with Compound bows)
1) Arrow speed DOES matter! Especially at ranges of 20-25 yards and less. In my experience deer react just as quickly to the bow shot noise from slower bows (quieter) as they do faster (louder) bows... in MOST cases even a "quiet" bow is more than loud enough to cause a deer to physically react (drop)... so, having a significant amount of additional arrow speed increases the odds of lethal hits at distances of 25 yards or less (in MOST cases! -- there will always be some anomalies that occur).
2) Building off of point #1 ... it's BOW noise.... NOT arrow noise that is the key factor leading to deer reacting to the shot at these shorter ranges. At ranges of 30-35 yards and beyond the arrow noise plays an increasingly greater role in deer reaction to the shot and I think most people are in agreement with that perspective.
3) The dominant FREQUENCY range of the bow shot noise AND arrow flight noise DOES play a role as well.... how big of a role is difficult to say and in my opinion will never be fully determined! But it DOES matter in my experience. Higher frequencies don't carry as far in open air or penetrate surrounding objects as well as lower frequencies.... higher frequencies though can be perceived as more alarming to wild game and are perceived as "louder" than their actual amplitude would suggest (human hearing perceives the same way)... so, in my view there must be a "sweet spot" range of dominant frequencies that are most conducive to the bowhunter in terms of limiting deer's reaction to the shot.
Great feedback
I'm glad I'm not the only one whose ears ring in complete silence....low poundage and semi heavy arrow...they don't seam to react...heavy puondage bows seem to be louder in my opinion
I think that's valid. My wife's low poundage bow and short draw is so much quieter than my rig, even if I shoot an arrow double her arrow weight. Even if both are equally efficient and put the same percentage of wasted energy into noise, the one with more stored energy would release a greater amount as noise.
Yea, I think you can over think this topic. Unless you sleep with your bow, stay 30 yards and in, but pay attention to the deer's attitude.
During testing of my heavy crossbow bolts, I stood down by my target and had my cousin shoot my crossbow so I could see how loud my crossbow bolts were in flight. They sounded EXACTLY like a small flock of birds flaring their wings for a landing. I have never had a deer jump or drop using those bolts, and I think it’s because they sound like something natural.
Tell us about your bolts, vanes? how long, broadhead, what type, speed?
Arkansas is about 7-12 yards. Especially in the northern hills and hardwoods
do different arrow rests play into this?
I suppose if you had a bow with a really loud rest making contact with the riser. But most should be quieter than the sound of the bow itself.
You might consider the attack distance of the predator the deer evolved with.
The idea of a protection zone is an interesting hypothesis but seems really hard to validate even using statistics. I also feel like it can't ignore arrow speed given an animal's ability to react isn't infinitely fast and is likely a fixed reaction time. Given a fixed reaction time and a fixed zone of protection, I don't see how arrow speed doesn't matter? What am I not understanding?
If the zone of protection is fixed, yes you are correct. If the size of the active protection zone varies with the sound of the arrow, then it is possible that a slower arrow can get closer to the deer, making arrow speed less relevant. The real world Iron Fist active protection example can only go so far. Great comment.
Animals that are closely packed in a herd are connected in The Ether in all move together just like birds in a flock do not affect when they move birds outside of that zone
After the season has been open for a while in a certain number of deer across the county have been killed the rest of the herd is informed that the Hunt is on and they become jumpier more in the later season
Being I worked with horses, animals who's eyes work pretty close to deer eyes, I think you overlooked the fact the lighted knocks will catch their eye n cause a reaction? They see yo the. Side very well
I don't know, I hear that comment a lot but the light is pretty shielded from the front. When I film from the animals point of view it's much tougher to see the light than it is from the back. That, along with the example of the one doe having her head buried in the weeds but jumping, and another doe looking right at us and not jumping, make me think that if visual is part of it, which it could be, it's likely not much of a contributing factor compared to sound.
When some horses see anything move, a large fly, a stone flying off a mower, they flinch. A lighted nock is much brighter to them than us. You've never had a nock pop on in your quiver n you see a deer 100 yds away you know didn't catch your wind, stomp, blow n run? I hunted North zone in NY were the pressure is, n I have seen that. Might as well be a Lazer beam for them, combined with the alert already from the sound of the bow. Combination freak out. Sound n movement? Double whammy= white tail flying.
I think we are all missing a very important variable . The visual of the bow going off , then the arrow in flight.
Deer have a much better ability to pick up movement than humans. It's a rods vs cones thing thats over my head , but it's solid scientific data that they pick up movement better than we do. My anecdotal evidence , and I don't have video to back it up, comes from living in a state (Ga) that has a very long rifle season. Over the years , I've had deer in eyesight when a rifle goes off. I'm talking so close I almost jump out of my stand ! Deer , for the most part, are oblivious to that sound . I've only had one case from memory of a deer even flinching, and that happened 3 days ago from a ground blind w corn on the ground, in my backyard . A shot went off across the road that made me jump almost off my stool. That 2.5 yr old buck at 15 yds , tensed up like it was waiting for impact for a split second, then continued to scarf corn .
It doesn't matter how fast the speed of sound is if the deer reacts to movement from the bow, then arrow.
I've also tested deer at close range just to check my theory. Calm feeding deer will often come unglued at me throwing a pinecone with almost no detectable noise .
I get it, not much can be done about the movement of the shot or arrow , except a solitary deer ,if you can shoot when the deer is looking away or there is an obstruction hiding their line of sight to you.
The sight variable , imho, is as big as sound. It's just not a multi million dollar industry like sound dampening.
Food for thought.
There definitely could be something there. I know a few people have brought up lighted nock visuals. I've done a LOT of video work with the camera at the target looking back, mainly for sound capture. Though, when I do the visual influence is usually pretty minor, even with a lighted nock. There's almost no body movement, unless you drop your bow arm at which point the arrow is already there on a short shot. Arrow profile is very small. Can see fletching a little but often I need to go frame by frame to really see it well in the video. Now, I do 100% think that the movement getting to full draw is critical and can give you up and put them on edge in prep for the shot. Definitely should do some more testing on visual impacts.
@@DIYSportsman I think the difference is our ability to pick up movement, especially when relying on video equipment to record it , compared to an animal that's life depends on its ability to identify danger coming.
Almost every vid I've looked at, you can tell the deer is identifying a visual. I just watched a vid last night from Midwest whitetails. The deer was nicknamed floppy. He had serious ear issues and ignored all grunts or other communications to stop him for a shot for years , as the guy chased this deer. He was deaf as a door knob. That deer reacted to the shot when the guy finally got a shot . He spined the deer as it dropped . Pay very close attention. Another is the vid about deer reacting differently whether head up or head down done by another youtuber . In that vid, he shows 2 deer in the same frame . The deer with its head up reacts by sight. You can clearly see that deer slightly lift its head as it focuses on the movement of the shot . The evidence is out there. We are just focusing in how far the deer drops instead of the beginning of the reaction that starts the drop.
Garrett, you mentioned your wife’s set up is around 200 fps. What yardage is her first and second pin set up for?
15 for top pin and 25 for second. And she'll generally only take shots that she can use the top pin for.
Are you a NASA engineer? All this fantastic information is very interesting. There are so many variables in the field there will never be an absolute answer to some of these questions on reactive animals
I believe Darrel has done work for the DOD. There's a Hunting Public video where he gives a little more background about his experience with hypersonic projectiles.
Great video
Deer drop because they hear a noise that is unfamiliar to them they drop to get their legs under them cause they are flight animals
Head down don't shoot! They duck the most when their head is down. They duck the arrow sound more than the bow sound. If they could see the arrow it is even worse. I know some guys that are going back to camouflage fletchings just so they can't see it coming.
It kind of makes you wonder if when hunting a relaxed, feeding deer, if you'd be better off giving a quiet "meep" so they stop and put their head up. Perhaps head up and moderately alert is better than head down and relaxed.
You may be on to something baw. The most jaw dropping dodge of an arrow I have ever seen was on a two year old doe contently feeding on acorns 25 yds away. I was stunned. Conversely, I shot a fairly alert 6pt last year at 35 yds and he barely dropped at all. I almost didn't shoot because I figured he would react too much. He didn't budge till the arrow got pretty close. I was almost 30' up.
I think it matters if the deer have previously been shot at as well. Take a deer that has been hit and survived..... He may me more cautious of the sound of an arrow.
The sound of the bow will take under 6/100ths of a second to reach the buck from 20m.
Correct, and then it takes another ~0.1s for the deer to start moving after the sound has reached it.
great vid well done
I love this stuff. I always had a theory about lighted nocks too. I believe deer see that light coming towards them.
I will plan to do some shooting in lower light with lighted nocks and camera at target to see how visible they are. I've heard that before as well. It'd be interesting to see if a fatter nock like a nockturnal has a different appearance from the front than a smaller nock like the firenock.
@@DIYSportsman I switched to regular nocks this season I didn't harvest a deer with my compound but my crossbow had regular nocks which is the tool I used to shoot a 7 point. At roughly 20 yards I aimed at the heart while quartering away and when I recovered the deer it was still high mid lungs even some liver and my xbow was dead on he came in head down also. But he came through super slow and looking in all directions ( I was extremely close to buck bedding sitting on the ground tucked into a pine tree ) you guys are onto something I'm curious on a follow up video. Keep up the good work!
I think the here the arrow before the bow.
Since we're below the speed of sound, they'll always hear the bow first. With a microphone at the target the noise it picks up is Thump, WhoooOOOSH. But depending on distance and how loud the bow is, I do think the arrow could be much more startling.
@@DIYSportsman makes sense. Keep up the good info
The sound of the arrow might be adding validity to the scary sound of the bow!
Put camera with a mic near a feeder and see what you hear. If the bow is muffled at say 20 yards then see if the reaction starts at that sound of the muffed bow if the deer does not react at that point see when the deer starts to react.
Until archery is as fast or faster than sound deer react always.
How much is a variable that is undetermined and situations apply this is always going to be an unknown.
Rich is a great dude and i love his channel but he is also new to crossbow and archery hunting. He has lots of great ideas and knowledge but he is not perfect no one is.
Whom ever says though that animals do not react does not pay attention. They always move sound of bow or arrow they are moving. Really this is why plan B arrows and bolts is great. You hit they die you miss they live two both best cases of scenarios. The unknown variables thats hunting!
I have a different outlook on long range archery kills. Do they capture the essence of bow hunting? No. Are they ethical? Absolutely given the right equipment and this is mathematically provable.
My recurve shoots a 600gr arrow at 155fps. My crossbow shoots a 500gr bolt at 440fps.
A 20 yard shot with my recurve on a deer would be perfectly ethical and is commonly done. However what if I told you that my crossbow can reach a target 85 yards away in the same time my recurve reaches a 20 yard target? The only difference is the crossbow bolt has 5x the energy and is too far for the deer to react to the sound. The 85 yard crossbow shot is WAY more ethical than a 20 yard shot with the recurve. If we're going to discuss the ethics of long range shots with modern archery equipment then we will have to question every single shot taken with traditional equipment.
That's a good perspective. You often hear similar arguments with rifles vs any kind of archery. Of course then you're talking totally different seasons etc. I know for my traditional hunts, even if I'm proficient at a given range this type of analysis will really play into which shots I do or don't take.
Just given those speeds and not factoring in speed erosion. The crossbow takes .19 seconds to go 85 yards, in .19 seconds the trad would shoot 29.45 yards. The time to target on the 20 yard shot is .13 seconds. The faster arrow will always slow down more in flight so your longer shot will probably take double the the time. It’s not a significant difference but it’s still not the same
The 20 yard recurve shot would be closer to 57 with the crossbow if time to target was the only factor