Debunking Things That You Said About Strive Characters
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 พ.ค. 2022
- Stun Dipper could be safe and do 80% meterless and Ky players would still be down bad about their character.
A companion piece to the season 2 change wishlist: • Your Character Needs S...
streamed May 13, 2022
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There are three worlds: The real one, the 6th grader one, and the TH-cam comments.
6th Grade canon is Tier 1.
I want to live in the 6th grade one.
Heaven, Hell, and Earth
@@maybeuchuu Earth, Heaven, and Hell.
i hope 6th grader world comes back some day. even if its not the same teacher, make it a diff school or something teaching kids some +r or xrd or any niche-ish fighting game and let the kids go ham on the buttons and make their own tierlist
its fun to see hahaha
Think about it, Potemkin Buster is a bad move it loses to jump
And Heat Knuckle only works on people in the air
Potemkin literally has nothing useful in his kit
@@Sorrelhas ok fr though i want heat knuckle to be some real degen shit
@@sp4de5 I may be wrong, but I think you get some insane conversions from Heat Knuckle in +R if you don't go for Extend
@@Sorrelhas only if you RC, you only get (admittedly amazing) oki off of no extend midscreen and off extend in the corner
Potemkin mains out here trying to condition others to start jumping more, smh.
People look at fighting games way too binary, x loses to y so it’s bad but they always forget that y loses to Z. So once conditioned to look out for Z, they’ll get smoked by X.
And it’s crazy that people over look this when this is like fighting games 101
Special: *wins against almost the entire alphabet*
TH-cam comments: ssssss, yeaaaah, but it loses to U though, which is a pretty fast move so I dunno, seems kiiiiiinda bad ngl
Classic maneuver in TCGs too.
“Oh yeah this minion is a 1 mana 8/8 but you can Doom Blade it ;_;”
@@thecountercounter9127 this but literally
Even funnier that people are like that even for actual combat sports lmao
@@SoMuchNoise1 it literally is just like the ''but it dies to removal'' argument, it's pretty funny
Im tired of people saying that a character is bad because a move can be beat in a vacuum while ignoring that not everyone is super human and can do the right thing to beat them every time.
And that's just in a vacuum, you're dealing with 474949 other possible options at the same time every second of the match.
"Dude sol is so bad, just block everything low"
(gets wild thrown)
I feel your pain There's a term in Magic the gathering that is similarly reductive when talking about the power level of creatures, which is "it dies to removal". Like yeah if you always have the answer to deal something that thing Isnt very good. But much like in magic you won't always have removal in your hand and in fighting games you won't always be ready to do the exact thing to counter a particular move or strategy. It's just nonsense that people who don't know what they're talking about say.
“Millias and chipps health are so low just hit them”
Millia and chipp mains: *zipping, zooming and mixing across the ground and air at near unreactable breakneck speeds*
@@ReikaHisui Really strong stuff doesn't die to relevant removal though.
Edit: (Fingers are thumbs)
certified just 6p the dolphin moment
"Only 5 seconds" 5 seconds is the entire duration of Chaos curse and it's probably one of the most broken things about him. 5 seconds is a lot in the right context
a strive combo is 5 seconds. that can mean death. ppl are insane
even as a ky main when i heard this i was like are you fucking stoned. so around 8 seconds shock state? even 5 seconds is an extremely long in videogames, jesus. and with moves reapplying shock state you can just make it last the whole match cos it would probably be like that.
5 seconds is a round in Strive if Chipp gets counterhit on roundstart.
@@SusanooMain especially since with Ky, yiu can keep pressuring and use a move that puts shock state back on, and hope their defence fails
The first one especially reminds me of when I complained about Dragon Ball's netcode making it both difficult to fuzzy block jump-ins and disproportionately punishing to fail, and some asshole argued with me about how you have like 11 frames of leeway to get it right. I almost said, "Cool, thanks for telling me you auto-lose to double overhead, I guess"
I haven't really kept up with playing Strive, but when I heard you talk about how good Stun Dipper is with RC, it was illuminating. I'm awed that there's people who were as clueless as me about Stun Dipper, and they doubled down on their critique of the move instead of embracing it.
I mean most of the comments are complaining about the fact that from many ranges the second hit is blockable after the first hit connect. And that's fine if you know it and you play Kai and you're aware of this but he's a new player character and a lot of new players think if I hit the first move of a two-hitting move the second hit should always confirm automatically and they get frustrated when it doesn't it's just something you have to be aware of it's an annoyance but it doesn't make him necessarily a bad character or anything it would be incredibly strong if it always comboed because then he would just have a five frame low that was always safe unless you block the initial hit.
@@charliericker274 That doesn't really make it better. New players not understanding SD and getting frustrated, sure. But their automatic response being "this move sucks" instead of looking to learn is what makes those kinds of comments stupid.
@@jy61 sure obviously people saying dumb s*** is dumb but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt rather than just assuming that they're an idiot right off the bat you know. Sometimes people say stuff out of frustration it doesn't mean they're not willing to learn it just means they're trying to vent. when all you have is one small comment to make, and that's the entirety of your being as far as people who read that comment goes, it's easy to pass judgment quickly when the person is probably a lot more nuanced than that. I think it's also true that since it's such a beginner character you hear the same ignorant comments over and over again and people lose patience with explaining it or trying to give the person the benefit of the doubt this happens with all sorts of things on the internet if you say something that somebody's heard a million times they just put you in a box as dumbasses who say this stuff.
@@jy61 The main problem is that it's hard as a new player to understand *why* the second hit isn't connecting. If you don't know what to look for, you won't find it.
I don't really blame people who play casually for thinking it's useless.
@@charliericker274 the distance thing is probably the only thing balancing that move, otherwise j would be abusing it with
yea but blood guage makes me lose the round so nago is mid tier
*low tier
Food for thought. You are mid tier
*bottom tier
I want to go back to the reality where nobody knew how to play Nago so he was "bad."
Poor guage management
Just give Anji Guard-Point on every normal and Special... Then the Invincible on Startup Fujin from +R.
im glad youre not in charge of game balance
@@TheJbrown60 Talking a lot of shit for someone about to get hit with invisible wakeup Fujin into my super armored +4 on block overhead.
@@IFCLeon i got schmixed
@@IFCLeon um um actually its +1..
i say put in all the changes youtube comments suggest and then completely revert all of it the next day just to gaslight people about it later
The old dies to removal argument…
Dude, tarmogoyf isn't even that good though. It does to removal.
well that was a pretty good argument depending on the game because it forced you to play cards that gave you immediate value even if they got removed
I feel like a lot of people talk about Stun Dipper being bad like it's still the 1.0 version. The updated one is back to Xrd levels of hilariously strong
I mean if you think about it, Leo turnaround stance only works close range so it’s a bad move.
Ikr, how does turnaround stance deal with projectiles? Just use a projectile, horrendous move, unusable
@@thecountercounter9127 damn I didn’t even think about it. Makes it bottom 1 move in the game then
@@juanpilicioso4723 idk HC gun stances you can't block. I don't get why they even do it in the first place it's such a huge gamble
@@juanpilicioso4723 @the counter counter
hard to tell if either of you remember that Bt shield reflects projectiles or not 🥹
fuck leo
@@thecountercounter9127 you can parry projectiles right lol
"Sol is a bad character because Volcanic Viper is bad in neutral" - TH-cam comments, probably
Idiots! Volcanic Viper IS prime Sol neutral!
The biggest feelbad that Anji players have about Fuujin I think is that his offense with butterfly is already so mediocre that they keep trying to force Fuujin to be a mixup when its not. If the butterfly oki were a bit more potent and Nagiha a bit safer so he could really pester on ground, and convert the hard knockdown off CH Nagiha into better damage, he would FEEL a lot better to play. But maybe that would be a bit dumb since counterhits from him can already do so much damage. I think Arcsys was definitely conservative when designing this character cause they were scared of Spin being too degenerate of a neutral tool.
I'd take a damage nerf on Anji if it meant a better kit any day.
@@kaleidoslug7777 In this version of the game, for combos mainly. As Sajam showed in the video, its your standard thing to cancel into off buttons, and with a fast drift RC you can combo Kou after Nagiha for pretty good damage and a wall break. Otherwise, you can do things like OTG with it and go into hop which gives you a meaty c.S for pressure. You can also be super cheeky off a blockstring and go for kara fan needles, which leaves you plus and very close (although this can be reacted to by a strong player, so your mileage may vary).
Otherwise you can do held Fuujin for a massively damaging counterhit starter that also has guard point, so you can spin through far range pokes.
You are right though that ultimately at the end of the day its not exceptionally good for much else, which contributes to Anji being at the bottom of most people's tier rankings.
@@dickkickem7067 Thats fair. That said if we're looking at it as mostly for combos it makes Rin being an overhead kinda pointless (or even Rin existing in general, since a lot of what he can extend with Rin he can do with hop into something).
Honestly my favorite part of this character is that 50 meter + f.S nets a wallcarry or wallbreak on the entire cast, but fuujin is too cool a move concept for it to be niche or just combo extension.
Edit: Also yeah Rin and hop can both be good as resets, he's clearly not the best at anything but let it never be said this character doesnt have fun things to do.
@@kaleidoslug7777 Rin's main utility is that it groundbounces during juggles, which can be useful for conversions in certain juggle states, but you're right that Rin is not too useful of a followup, and is ESPECIALLY not a mixup unless your opponent is really caught sleeping.
I can understand it not being a mixup, though. They obviously don't want you to get a real true high/low situation on a halfscreen advancing guard pointed counterhit combo starting dash punch, which is understandable.
@@dickkickem7067 When you put it like that, +R Fuujin just sounds ridiculous. And oh boy, it was
It's funny because Foudre Arc receive the same critics that Greed Sever did, but they're both better tools for controling ennemy air movement and pre emptive stuff.
The thing that drives me nuts about foudre arc is that people thinking that it being an overhead somehow fixes anything.
@@seokkyunhong8812 it would put the living fear of God into my enemies, that's a start.
@@seokkyunhong8812 Right? It would be entirely redundant because it's already punishable if you're standing, and it keeps Ky's pressure going if you block crouching because you eat shit if you mash after crouch blocking. The only difference would be that you get hit- I'm not sure how reliable combo'ing from non counterhit Foudre is anyways
It's also a really good answer to Pot (me) doing wake-up/reversal BMF in the corner.
@@LeakyOrifices This is a game with RC, one hit is all you need, counterhit or not lol. Foudre Arc being overhead is a far bigger deal because of that, it would give him some mixup game (where before he only ever had 5D lol). Whether it's a good change or not, it would hardly be a inconsequential one.
The comment about Fuujin is wrong but also has a grain of truth about the issues the move has.
The point with Fuujin is that it's completely reactable and always losing.
Down back keeps you safe against Nagiha whilst Rin, Hop and Dagger are all completely reactable options. Rin leaves you punishable on block, Hop can be thrown on reaction so loses and Dagger can be antiaired, or jumped and nailed with an air to air, again all on reaction.
Anji's best option is Nagiha which is safe on block but minus, so the moment Fuujin comes out against an experienced player, Anji loses all momentum unless he has RC on deck.
A hard knockdown on Nagiha is nice. But if someone is getting consistently hit by Nagiha to begin with then they're probably going to lose to you because they don't know the match.
The core issue of Anji is that he was clearly built with the idea that Fuujin was a major part of his toolkit, but as it stands it's a liability to put it out unless it's part of a combo.
thank you for pointing this out. this is why every match up feels like an uphill battle. some of the best characters have punished off blocked nagiha, so any amount of pressure you apply feels immediately lost. every fujin follow up feels like a gamble to try and trick your opponent but every trick is known and gets hard punished. it hurts that people can grab the in-between frames of rin.
Nagiha isnt even safe on block unless its spaced well. Lots of characters can punish with 2K/5K, which can be really rough depending on what that character gets off of 2K/5K. tbh, his best option vs strong players is to just fish for 5H, 2D and spins. Like, dont even go into fuujin, just stop at 5H or 2D, because fuujin instantly puts anji in a mostly losing situation...which kinda sucks because thats almost his entire kit.
As a Ky player, I feel your pain, but you still have rekka mix. It's exactly the same as his talk about Ram. Reactable frame data doesn't mean reactable in game.
If they block low, yeah, you're in trouble. But, they're holding down-back and mashing 2P to beat jump-throw or overhead, right? So, you jump back for neutral or delay low and hit them. I also disagree with how Sajam says you need hard knockdown on it... if they're mashing on wakeup, you have spin parry. If they respect you on wakeup, you get the exact same rekka plan. But now they're worried about getting hit by the delayed low again, and they'll be focusing on other defense options.
Again, I feel your pain as a Ky main, but I've destroyed several Sols, Rams, Gios, and Mays with simple mix-ups. I've also been destroyed by many an Anji who got one good low, RC-ed, and took 70% from me, only to do it again after a wall break.
Maybe you don't have the great options that other characters have, but you have enough to hurt them plenty. Just play against the person, not the character they're playing as.
With all the love in the world this is not a meaningful understanding of the character.
Fuujin is a knowledge check. If a player is getting hit by Nagiha low they do not know the matchup. You will almost always beat them.
Sajam is correct to say that reactable in theory is not the same as reactable in game.
In Anji's case this does not apply.
Let's look at Fuujin followups and their startup frame data:
Hop is 28 frames, 22 active + 6 recovery on landing.
Rin is 25 frames.
Dagger is 30 frames (The dagger is not active whilst it travels to the ground)
The fastest of these options is at above double human reaction time.
You do not ever need to mash jab against Anji after Fuujin. You just, sit, block and react to the followup appropriately. With a little practice it is very very easy.
The issue is that once this knowledge check is understood Anji does not have reasonable tools to win matches.
@@Natural20LP a really cool thing they could do with hop is make it into a new rekka which ends the frames a bit earlier but ends in the stomp from +r.
That Anji comment is a vast oversimplification of how to beat Fuujin followups
Nagiha (low): -7 on block, hold it and punish if its misspaced, if Anji has meter and you don't have a 7 frame punish then be wary of counter super
Issokutobi (hop): Hop is -12 on the earliest cancel, you can throw to punish; most characters have a button that can punish but most people won't react to it on time
Shin (fan throw): only has a hitbox when the fan explodes on the ground meaning you can jump air attack on reaction or even air throw if you're good at going from down back to up forward, also has some character specific grounded punishes. If you block it is +4 and is the only plus fuujin option
Rin: react by mashing a quick light button or if Anji doesn't have meter, block and punish since it's -15
Yes to all of that but you need to have good reactions or risk yourself. As an Anji Main I myself struggle sometimes in the mirror or when using other characters against him because I don't react to things I am already expecting, but the idea is to condition people to at least make them guess if they are not super fast reacting
The Anji segment kinda opened my eyes to how bad I've been spacing Fuujin and thinking about my followups. Thanks Sajam!
I once saw a Ky player suggest that his 214S should be 0 on block. They are the kings of wack requests.
I mean....-11 feels like a lot. Just saying. I'd settle for -9.
I don't think it is that whack of an idea if you reduce pushback. 214S is string ender so it is designed to be mostly safe because of pushback so like there is argument to be made for such changes.
Not as much as Anji mains. Anji mains have the weirdest request. And I'm calling Anji mains out because Faust also share the last place in the tier with usually more reasonable requests.
I think the Anji example is best because it really shows the difference between reading frame data and actually playing/experimenting.
Oh yeah? If my character is so good why do I lose all the time? No I will not reflect on myself
Your character isn't bad. It's the beasts, the beasts are what done it!
Love the mixup with the meaty outro music. schmixed me.
I feel like nobody actually complained about Rams rekka being bad but complaining about it being too good is very therapeutic.
"The Ky players were making shit up", yo, that's us right there. We're doing our best marketing to get them buffs. We don't want Ky to be "pretty good", or "in a good place"(Because he is both of those things), we want him to be absolutely bonkers S-Tier broken. It would be totally okay for Shock State to last half the round timer, Dire Eclat should cause a ground bounce, I don't see why stun dipper can't be safe on block, also Dragon Install should be available at 99% hp(to be fair, I think people still wouldn't use it). You gotta help us do the marketing, Sajam, don't expose our character's strong side!
Nagos fukyo mix is so powerful. My friends always say “just jab out of it” but never do it when fighting nago.
Ppl say shit like its easy but then forget that you have to GUESS CORRECTLY!!!!!
It depends how often your opponent does it, but generally you can play around it. Beyblade is waaaaay more scarier that any fukyo 'mix'.
I really thought that Gio 2d discussion was going to come up again lmao. I live to see another day
Pot actually gets kara pot buster on a blocked stun dipper, even with shock state
Since you called me out about me suggesting making shock state last longer because stund dipper would be even more degenerate I have taken the time to go lab out some sort of punish for every character in the game on Shock State Stun Dipper and to check how hard it is for them to punish it, and how strong said punish is.
Sol, Ky, May, Axl, Chipp, Millia, Zato, Giovanna, Goldlewis, Jack-O, and Happy Chaos all have an easy time punishing SS Stun Dipper at the ranges where both hits will connect (a.k.a the ranges where you want to use it if you don't have meter. Some chars can punish it even at half screen and over, at ranges where only the second hit will connect) The thing these characters have in common is that they use S/HS buttons with good range and consistent enders to punish Stun Dipper. The only exception is Jack-O, who uses 5K but her 5K is massive and goes into 2D so she gets to be up here. Happy is a little special in that his best punish is f.S., but you need to use his unique resources for that punish. Super long range and consistent in exchange. Otherwise, 5K would be the way to go, but that has noticeably less range.
Faust, Ramlethal, Leo, Nagoriyuki, Anji, Faust and I-No have to use their 5Ks(except Anji, he uses 2D) to punish, which not only have shorter range than the chars in the other list, but at max range may not combo into anything, depending on the character. Nago and Leo for example can get a consistent punish if their 5Ks lands at any range, and on the flip side Faust and I-No have to gatling into 2D which won't work at the max range of their 5Ks.
Potemkin eats shit and can't do almost anything against SS Stun Dipper at almost any range.
Millia has a punish of f.S, tandem top but it's fairly low reward.
So, in conclusion, 10/18 characters can punish Shock State Stun Dipper consistently at the ranges where it is most likely to be used, which, IMO, is the ranges where both hits connect.
8/20 need Ky to space rather poorly to get a good punish on it, and their punish may not have an ender if used at max range, depending on the character.
1/20 has to fucking hold that. EDIT: Actually, Potemkin can punish blocked stun dipper with shock state with kara potbuster.
I only haven't bought Baiken yet, so I'm not sure about her, so she might not be able to punish.
Also, you could just nerf stun dipper. It's a fairly degenerate move as you mentioned and nerfing it to be slightly slower in exchange for buffing shock state would make him a more interesting character to play even if became worse completitively.
SS Stun Dipper is -10, kara Pot Buster is usually 7f start up (varies a frame or two depending on what frame of 6K you kara cancel). Ky players better have the fear of God trying to Stun Dipper Pot without meter
@@dekuskrub2154 Fair enough then, I could never hit kara potemkin buster in time, but I probably just suck
@@vanjagalovic3621 the trick is to get 6K to come out as the buffered reversal normal, and then you kara to PB
He documented the lab work goddamn
The threat of an option is often worth as much if not more than the option itself. This is why meaties are still useful even if opponent has an invincible reversal.
there's only one channel where i've ever actually had like, constructive, friendly conversations in the comments and it's one specific manga youtuber who's videos really encourage a specific audience to engage
shoutouts to sufferents
"Spd is trash, just hold up"
Same people
"Grapplers are degenerates"
Most Ky players think foundre arc is bad because they want greed sever back which is probably a worse move overall 💀
Wasnt greed sever an overhead though?
@@SirKrisX Yeah but it was unsafe on block and reactable unless you are playing with lag in Xrd because delay based netcode was still a thing. It was on paper somewhat fast at 19 start up but in reality the hit box started higher up to catch people in the air so it's actually data as a overhead is worse making it easier to react.
At high levels GS was mostly used to catch jump outs and low crush low pokes, usually in the corner.
In this case FA does the same thing, it can crush lows and hits jumpers but it has more range so it also hits jump backers. Remembered playing a Zato that tried to kept trying to back jump pressure into button so I just did Fourde Arc and it bounced him into a 50% combo.
Also Fourde Arc can be a safe jump meaty after 214S combo enders as well which is another reason why it is useful.
@@boredomkiller99 I want to agree on FA's upsides but even lowcrushing still isnt a guaranteed punish since the start up is so long. Predicting wrong usually leads to a combo too. Upbackers dont get punished much. He doesnt land faster (or much faster) than the opponents so its a reset to neutral and even during the video around 4:45 or so, Sajam got counterhit by a jump move and at 4:55 he trades. Ideally the buff I'd like is to make it more reliable for both the situations you presented.
@@SirKrisX
From my experience and labbing a anti air FA leads to a easy follow up 5H into FA midscreen or RTL. If the second FA carries into the corner you either get CSE oki. Even if blocked mid air it gives Ky pressure upon landing. If done up close from block strings it is highly unlikely if you will trade from jump back attack unless you are doing some needlessly long delays. However if you do it from neutral it can happen but that makes sense since you are flipping kicking from half to full screen. Overall it does a good job stuffing jump backers.
However as a low crush it does have reward problems. Landing the punish isn't too hard as you will normally use it against something with longer duration like Nago's 2S on prediction. Real issue is the reward sucks since even if it hits crouching it doesn't get any combos outside shock state or counter hit. I feel like if it hits at all on a croucher it should at least give a 2K into 2D or something. Like being up close with frame advantage isn't bad mind you but could be better for the effort. GS was overall better as a low crush especially in corner due to vapor loops follow ups but the low crush of GS is probably one of it's two real uses.
I won't say no to something like slightly better frame data or reward but even without a buff I think FA is still quite good for his kit as it gives him corner carry in combos and leads to his higher damage, is a great meaty tool, gives you a way to stuff people trying to escape via jumping and allows for better confirms on counter hit 5H. Overall a move at least on par with GS if not better due to versatility while GS is mostly a limited but effective use move. FA is undeniably better then his actual bad moves.
JD right now does nothing. It was one of the few JD that didn't get the jump cancel and is niche at best combo or block string uses that are replicated by other moves. Is a borderline dead move and his worst.
Ground stun edge even after buff is still pretty trash outside using prc. It still has too long of recovery and leads to losing 50-70% life if opponent IADs in mid screen. It still has a weird property where if it misses and goes off screen it still counts as being on screen so you can't fire another one till it goes off stage. This is weird and I never seen this happen in other games. Still has uses but it is a move that the less you use it the better you will do in most match ups.
Anyways sorry for the rant for anyone who actually read to the end.
Edit: also while I think Sajam is right that FA is actually pretty good some of his examples are not really why the move is good, AKA right conclusion but wrong reasons
the gio thing is funny because a year or so ago when I was trying to main her I got really stuck on the whole "oh everyone else is a superhuman who will instantly react so its bad" trap for her 236k/214s, and so my pressure sucked ass
It boils down to the new player misconception that because a move CAN be countered, that it WILL be countered in every single situation at all times. It's up to YOU to not be predictable with it.
I think the idea behind Nagiha is that it does do a hard knockdown, but only on counterhit. But yeah, Anji needs a more consistent way to convert into a hard knockdown
Eight months ago I was 6p every Gio drill. I have not caught a good Gio lacking in a while.
fr i thought this shit was so easy 😭 now the gios got dash blocks and dash 5K/5H and 2D and crazy counterhit damage, neutral against her now is like walking on eggshells. i think their character is legit dope but i miss the days when i could get free wins by 6Ping drill
I play Ky and the bit about Stun Dipper into RC at 5:12 feels like its unlocked a part of my brain
I really thought you would have gone straight to the Kara Pot Buster guaranteed punish on Stun Dipper from any spacing. But the joy of learning that for oneself is not to be spoiled, I understand.
I, as a pot player, wish for my 2p to simply be 7 frames, so I can punish Nagiha on block without having to do a frame perfect kPB that doesn't work if Nagiha is spaced.
As a Goldlewis player I wish I had a 7 frame normal that can hit Giovanna standing.
I, as an Anji player, like having one move that doesn't lose to pot tbh
nagiha should end their turn not make them eat a punish imo. especially in the pot matchup which is just brutal for anji
Por que no los dos?
If Pot doesn't get his 5p hitbox extended lower, then 2p will need a speed buff, and Anji should have at least some kind of a reasonable ender for Fujin.
I just know not to trust someone’s opinion when they think a character is bad “cause you can jab them when you’re looking for the one move and nothing else”
The real problem with fuujin is that you can, after most strings, OS a reversal (super or DP) to beat followups and nagiha delays. If anji doesn't delay it can often mean he's left closer whe nagiha is blocked, and since it's -7 it can be punished pretty often. Mashing jab is a bad idea though.
My understanding with fujin is the followups are all escapable with a fuzzy jump.
Bad or not aside, here's a funny fact, if goldlewis hits a grounded opponent with a 6P without counterhit and doesn't cancel into anything, he's like -16, possibly more.
I tested this with another goldlewis, and I got punished for hitting 6P by a 720 Super. Obviously you will never not buffer a BT behind your hits, but I think it would be a nice QoL change for the lower level players if that were not the case.
I think the fact that you have a confirmation 6P into special IS the qol. It's the jp and the 5p that makes you wonder why it even exists other than to broadcast you messed up mashing 720
Foudre Arc also has a meaty setup off of Super Wall breaks that will beat all reversal supers except fucking JackOs command grab
Sol poente is needs a startup frame buff as a solo mixup, I'll take it being nuetral on block than it's current state, you can't change my mind. Try to use as overhead during a blockstring get 6P'd on reaction, try to cross up during a blockstring get back air thrown on reaction.
Also on the baiken front you forgot h-kabari into parry when you know your opponent is mashing or attempts to throw something out after block which is godlike.
You know, the only real change I want for my main is to make blitschlag be active for 6 frames. Having my plus on block move be useless at high level because you can always just backdash it hurts so much... I wish people at least had to take risks to interrupt it. Making it active for 6 frames would make it so only like 3 characters can backdash it, and they'd have to be frame perfect with it. That's honestly the only thing I realistically want Leo to have in this game.
Ram's Rekka is nasty. I have a friend who plays her so I tried looking up some counter plays. IB Throw on the 1st or 2nd hit is your most consistent option, but spacing can make Throw whiff at times. Not to mention they can always delay or not cancel into it - makes IBing it real hard. I'm just hoping they'll nerf it by making whiff recovery longer. Eating a counter hit trying to whiff punish feels bad, man.
Ky's only real problem is dragon install activation. All his tools beside that are really solid
post patch edit: jesus christ they made it plus on block
naw his fireball is trash. if you try to throw another one while ones on screen you get fs and could get smoked from that
@@TheJbrown60 i dunno if you're trolling but i'm a ky main and his fireball is pretty good. If he were able to throw more than one fireball at the same time it would become a real problem to the game
@@TheJbrown60 You're the person the video is criticizing.
@@guitarsoupify Guys, he is joking. Nearly all fighting games only allow one type of fireball to exist at a time.
It is a joke that says Ky fireball is bad cause of this one thing all fireballs can't do.
If you get it, you get it. Unless he wasn't joking........
I'd say his air-fireball's kinda meh. Too much recovery
founders arc catches all megafisto :(
I played a gio that used her only “good” moves and never adapted so I beat them like 20 times till they adapted and it never happened
Pray for Anji. Shirtless man is too sexy to be so bad. 🙏
My man said "You're wrong", but in the nicest way possible.
If I could change something I would change baikens parry. I'd make it more active and have less recovery but lower the damage by a lot.
As a Ky main, the discourse around Foudre Arc being a bad move seems exclusively around the context of it being used as an approach option and that is just not what the tool is for? It's a pressure tool to mix up timing and to deal with the frame advantage you get with static status. Like a very simple neutral game I still use to this day is basic combo that ends in 214S, get the kd plus static, then you have the timing to Foudre arc in, hit them on wake up and they pretty much have to block, then if they do block, you get a 50/50 with dash throw or buttons depending on if they jump or not. It's just a really solid set up, at least at my skill floor which I tend to hover around floors 9 and 10 and occasionally getting to my heaven qualifiers. I don't play online too frequently tho, but I can say this has been a fairly consistent set up in my experience at my locals.
It's a pretty versatile move. It's a pressure reset with shock state and a nice meaty after 214S (although I just use FDC safejumps) and it catches jumps and it's combo filler and you can use it as an approach tool. I don't know what people want.
@@DoctorGalactor agreed, like I get why people think it's bad I just don't agree because it's like "yeah that's called counterplay." It's actually something I do when teaching a couple of my friends fighting games so they can train their perception on when is it safe to punish something because it's the same move, but in different scenarios and I noticed it helped them access more scenarios than just a universal "this move is slow" or "this move is fast
Ky's kinda okay. It's just that the top tiers right now either have extremely strong disjoints on their normals or have normals that you recover way too fast on whiff + they have extremely scary offense once u get in compared to Ky. Tone these characters down and Ky's in a good spot. I'm all in for buffing DI tho and making the char more fun.
unfortunatly, people think a character or move is "bad" if they can't brainlessly use something without worry of reprisal. They forget that they are supposed to use their moves properly and know where and when to do things to make a character "good". "What's that? The move can be blocked or countered with a jab??? Bottom tier!"
Anji and Fujin are legit bottom tier tho
If I was in chat I would make up all sorts of wack sh*t for Sajam to do in training, acting like I actually believe those things worked, just to get him to do them over and over to "prove me wrong", unaware that it's all part of my master plan to get him to waste time
I mean, a lot of people (if not most) would let him know it doesn't work like that because not everyone has the time watch a dude wasting time doing nothing in the training mode of a videogame
when i purposefully spread misinformation on twitch chat
I think even though Foudre Arc is not a useless move, it is missing one thing. For a flip move, it’s not all that great at going over things. The original best use of greed sever was that it could go over tons of pokes and lead to a combo while being safe on normal block if you were spaced to beat a poke. I feel like if anything gets buffed about Ky it’ll be that, because they seem intent on buffing moves that don’t get used. It’s why they buffed Ram’s flip. When it was an overhead but minus it never ever got used, and didn’t really mesh with the character at all, she just had it because it was a move she had in Xrd (where it was plus, overhead, and still pretty bad lol) so they figured they had to changed it to get used more, same with rekka. They even say in the patch notes that they removed the overhead property because they felt like they had to buff the move, but it being an overhead limited the ways they felt safe buffing jt
Top tier thumbnail
I just want Dire Eclat to be -8 on block. It being -9 at best makes the sol and ram matchups really annoying.
People saying Ky is bad are really not paying attention, but I think this issue in particular should be fixed.
As usual, people in the comments have NO idea what they're talking about.
Uh... Wait...
Ky doesn't need a change, maybe making his dps as fast as sol at that would be it
Seeing this after patch is a trip lol "[Baiken far S] is absurd"
foudre has it's uses, of course, It's not worthless, however i do think the move is very little rewarding for the risk that i take.
I think a better issue with Fuujin is that unless you space it perfectly, every option loses to any dp. With Leo in particular, Fuujin->Low is punishable with S DP, and Low is the only option that you can actually make a true blockstring. That's matchup dependent, true, but Fuujin is like the only pressure tool Anji has in his strings. You just... don't get to Fuujin against dps, not unless you're spaced perfectly. And if you're spaced that far, you're already kinda fucked in terms of... you can't do pressure.
You can C.S f.s hs into fujin shin (the fan toss) and any DP will whiff. Now there is a 2 frame gap between f.s and H.S but if thier that ape you can play around it. Now they can just DP after fan toss but your still at advantage and have more to work with then just fujin in thier face. And remember you can always cancel into butterfly or do tick throws you dont have to pressure with just fujin alone cycling your options is really important
@@anjisonlyfans6578
>cS fS HS Fuujin Fan: Congratulations, you're now far enough away that you don't get pressure anyways! They don't *need* to dp, they're now out of your pressure. Big deal, you're +4 at just under midscreen.
>Cancel into butterfly: If you catch someone asleep at the wheel, sure, but butterfly is ass unless you've got a knockdown. Counterhit punishable with 30 frames of startup
>Tick throw: Congratulations! You can't do a tick throw out of Fuujin, which is the move I was talking about.
You still have pressure options against dp characters. I'm saying fuujin isn't one of them.
@@emeraldmann1329 cS fS HS Fuujin Fan can bait some DPs in the same way safejumps can bait stuff. It's a knowledge check and at the very least, you get returned to neutral instead of getting punished.
@@duckadence Oh cool, I can end my pressure in going to neutral! That's definitely the result I'd like to have when I'm using a tool designed to pressure and give me a mixup.
@@emeraldmann1329 How is fan toss a mixup tool?
Sajam do you have any tips for the Ky vs Sol matchup? I have a lot of problems mostly when im on offense and try to pressure the Sol in this matchup. Do you have any blockstrings that you would recommend?
I don't usually comment. But as an Anji main, I think nagiha could do with a buff. The reason I disagree why it's specifically the move to buff, is that it's already his only safe fujin ender.
I've been doing my celestial challenge on and off and people on that level know that you can hit or even grab Anji off Rin startup with proper reactions. They can similarly hit Anji out of a kara hop etc. Needles are fairly safe but you give up space for it. So nagiha is the way to go 90% of the time. So why buff his only fujin followup that's already "ok", when the other three are on lifesupport?
Yet Nagiha is still unsafe unless spaced which is ass. Though most of the time you end up with enough space naturally except in certain matchups with long range fast moves.
Even when it is safe your turn is over which makes Fujin really awful as a mixup tool because you can option/fuzzy all the options (don't know which term is correct one) and your turn is over with 1 "mixup" unless you spend meter.
Everybody else either gets way harder mixups, or multiple attempts at them when they're pressuring the opponent's block. Anji gets 1.
@@killerkonnat i think there is some truth to the part about follow ups but imma be real. 90% of the anji players even in celestial dont make anything happen in pressure. They just use fujin the way they wished it worked and not how it actually is. So few people actually use his stagger pressure from normals. Or even scout out your options to bait you from using empty fujins if you see they are just playing reactive to follow ups. Most people just cash out their pressure immediately and either throw the hail mary follow up with the same timing as always or end their turn with nagiha. Which is fine by the way. Most normal characters function that way. I dont really see people complaining that gio and ky cant open people up just because sepultura and dire end their turn too. (Alright maybe ky players do complain, but they do that about everything)
The KY players complaining about KY need to remember that my is a grappler.
rams rekka being very punishable is what they want you to think 😨😨
I wouldn't say no to a better knockdown on nagiha, but that's not really what we have trouble with as Anji players. Throw into butterfly is not as immediately easy but it's quite decent to run our Oki setups.
Imho your change doesn't really fix the parts that feel bad about the character which is why we're not crazy about it
the issue with gio drill is the start up. its has the ability to beat single hit fireballs but too slow to actually counter any. even if you are going for the baits or mix, with that much start up you can 6p it on reaction. yes i get his logic of o well ppl wont be looking for it but again that start up so long you can adjust to punish it. it doesnt need to be a 7 frame move but there no reason for it to be 30 frames of start up.
I think people have the false assumption that just because it eats fireballs, doesn't mean that it's meant to be anti fireball. Also it needs to be that slow because it's a positive on block move that eats backdashes. You need the ability to intercept on reaction.
my only wish for a future patch is that faust gets his cup game super again
Even me, a brain dead Millia player with 0 execution skill, knows how much options are available with delaying attacks or changing the timing.
I attack with j.H for a living and when people start countering it, I turn on my brain, change to a different timing in j.H and I'm good again.
But Mr Streamer guy if I try to skibbity woop and my opponent does the yoinky sploinky I LOSE! How can that move possibly be useful for anything when it loses to 1/23 options???
I thought the proposed change for Anji was a good one. Given what he is now most proposed changes would be good.
For real though, it’s annoying when people are incorrect about a character’s problems because it makes it harder to discuss their actual issues.
if there's one thing I've learned looking at TH-cam comments, it's that any advice that goes "just x when y" is 9/10 times useless
I would say on release Ky was on the weaker side but that's for a couple of reasons and they fixed those so I'm perfectly fine with him now...
What I had problems with was him having no safe block string enders without shock state, the fire ball being counter hit punishable but also having recovery so bad that sol could 6H it on Block and get a counter hit punish, Dragon Install being basically useless cause meter gain was non-existent and stun dipper was inconsistent.
The two patches adressed all of this, by decreasing recovery on stun edge his fireball became better and he now has a safe block string ender out of shock state so 2 birds one stone, Dragon Install while I still think it's not that good I actually use it now since it lets you gain meter, I don't exactly recall what was done to stun dipper but it definetley feels more consistent now and even changes I didn't think I needed like the universal air gattling change helped and far slash being faster and being able to actually keep foward momentum when done out of a dash.
So I think he is just fine right now... though there was a time I wanted his S DP sped up since it's currently 11 frames at the very last to 8 or even 7 like sols DP and how it used to be but lowkey I'm not exaxtly sure what that would do for him.
I had so much muscle memory from using stun edge as a block string ender in Xrd and when +R got rollback that I kept getting bodied cause my homies would take advantage of that and get fat punishes... and because I have a habit of early bursting you could see how that wouldn't work out so well against Sol or Leo
8:20 I am wondering how past guilty used quarter meters, I suggest make a video because i'm on the side of new 25% options and many people (including me) don't know the repercussions. I would like the video to talk about scaling, corner carry, pressure / blockstrings in past gg games, and seeing how they would work in ggst system.
In xrd 25% was used for blitz shield and yellow Roman cancel. Blitz shield was like a charged parry shield that if the Opponent hit they got countered and were stunned and left into a combo opportunity. But the opponent counter shield if they had the meter to do so you can also hit it low if they do the regular charge. Yrc let you slow the whole screen down and if you had a projectile like kys stun edge it would still go the same speed while the opponent is slowed down. And you could do that with any projectile in the game basically.
In +r characters have ex moves for 25% meter
I remember you said on stream that Baiken had great anti-air options despite people saying she only has one. Was hoping to see them here.
Rising j.k, tk yozansen, insant j.d are all really good anti airs. They just have specific ranges and times to use
@@redfish9546 And she has pretty good air to air too
@@TheRasengan0 oh yeah her air to airs are some of the best of the game, but people always say she doesn't have any anti airs outside of her 6p, which is definitely wrong
@@redfish9546 needing specific ranges and times are what makes them not good. When a character has good anti air, it's universally applicable against air.
@@seokkyunhong8812That's like saying Axl has bad anti airs because 5p, 6k, and 2s all have their own seperate uses. Just because they need thought to use don't make them bad
I just want Ky j.d to do... something? Rn Ky just has super good air buttons so it kinda falls into the weird not too useful due to other things being good already.
Not a very balanced focused idea, just like the way the move looks and wish it did more. Maybe the launch angle could be changed if you hit someone in shock state? It is a blue move after all
Fuujin is a weird move to me... i play leo, which means that I can always OS fuujin unless it's REALLY spaced, so I've never had to actually deal with it... however, you do a single fuujin startup cancel and I will automatically mald if it hits me
When we are making suggestions, it'd be nice if Gio's drill would destroy projectiles a teensy bit earlier. It's probably fine balance wise, but it's kinda meh how my anti-projectile it's too slow to be used against faster projectiles on reaction and gets bonked by many slower multi hit projectiles. I'm not asking for the invul to be fast enough to get a punish on Ky S fireball on reaction, mainly just to gain space if they start throwing fireballs from really far away.
IMO dash 2d is already a very good option to deal with slow fireballs. I don't think Gio needs it.
6:34
Who. In their right mind. Will try to counterpoke a war crime sweep?
A LOT of people will.
I'm not really convinced on Foudre Arc. It has so much risk vs the potential reward. Half of said reward is locked behind shock state. If you ever do debunking part 2: Foudre Arc when blocked in the air, not in shock state, can be punished by a.S
No shit? That's super fucked up.
For something so risky to do, i barely get anything out of that move, even during SS
these kinda of videos remind me that "just" and "should" have a limited use in healthy discussion (extends beyond the fgc too)
8:19 Yeah that would be so crazy. Imagine if Ram could convert off of something like that, that would be pretty broken huh? She might even be the best character in the game, wouldn't that be so silly?
What’s the BGM?
I hear it all the time in videos but never get it in game 😭
As a ky player with I think a reasonable take. I don't really think ky needs buffs or nerfs really. I'd be over the moon with character strength if he just wasn't nerfed in the next patch. he has a few slightly hard match ups but nothing worse than 4.5 -5.5 but he's in a really good spot at the moment. however if I'm thinking of things I'd personally want. I'd like sVT to be 10 frames instead of 11 to be able to consistently punish ram rekka 2 and act a bit better against a couple leo strings. as it stands it punishes rekka 2 if it's not delayed but doesn't punish if rekka 2 is delayed. a 10 frame svt would also make leo's OS bt.k bt.p bt,k string not OS away the reversal. it's not a big deal but it is a change I'd like to see. there are few other match ups it would effect since 10 frames still makes basically all safe jumps work on it it just targets a couple annoying things in slightly bad match ups. ky is fine without that buff.
As for ky nerfs Stun dipper with shock state needs to either have less push back or be -13 it goes from -15 to -10 with shock state which is the only move that improves by that much with shock state DE goes from -11 to -9 which matters because it pushes it out of some punish ranges but also is only 2 frames additional block stun which is generally how ss works. it seems reasonable to me for stun dipper to go from -15 to -13 instead of -15 to -10 this would make every character able to punish it at all ranges which is fair stun dipper should be punishable. as it stands applying shock state and then throwing out far range dipper is actually something that is pretty abusable against some characters notably nago. if his 5k doesn't reach he can't punish it. that match up is fine and would be fine if nago could punish that move as well. being unable to punish or punish very well stun dipper is a load of crap for how much crap stun dipper catches. it skews the risk reward in some really dumb ways.
I have heard some calls for 6H to be nerfed and I do understand it but let me have that. I love my big horizontal button that hits 6Ps let me have that. I feel a bit like hotashi does with the let him have his aggressive blood rage pops. I just love that button choosing between the faster f.s vs the slower and higher reward of 6H is a fun dynamic for far ranged pokes that most characters don't and it really helps the flavor of ky's neutral stand out from other big button neutral characters. let me have my fun.
Not to mention counterhit 6H when you back up and space it properly in the corner to catch mashes is pure bliss. The wallbounce, oh my GOD bro.
Agree with pretty much everything you said as a fellow Ky player, though the Stun Dipper SS nerf would make me sad because I am lazy and I throw the move out far too often when I shouldn't, lol.
I play Sin and half the time I can just run up and grab because people aren’t expecting it
People talking about Baiken needing consistent long to mid range meterless confirms into Kabari is so ridiculous to me. Like kabari knockdown is pretty much her win condition and it's insanely strong even if you cant get it from a far away hit. I'm just saying she doesn't really need it imo
I'm a baiken main and I'm pretty happy where she is now. She lacks some range but that's why i play her (I hate to zone). Giving her confirm for Kabari in long and mid range would erase the thing that makes her special
(I like my girl being middle tier)
The problem is that if it's not that, you don't get anything at all. I'd take Anji's Nagiha knockdown to the things she has now. And it's not Kabari what we want specifically, but a way to confirm ANYTHING that's not point-blank or crouching.
I just want Beach Ball to be useful tool for May 👁
Stun dipper RC is dangerous.
Iirc, Ram "needed" the flip buff because she gets a full combo with counterhit 5H into 214K. I don't think it was the case before.
from what I remember, the issue with the flip is that it always caused a soft knockdown on hit so the reward was always bad even when combo'd, and was very - oB. That and the fact that her rekka's had very bad frame data oB before (-8 on first, idr but -13 on second? and -27ish on third) made it so ram had no good ways to try to steal turns outside of the corner.
The only use the flip had was the very specific RC instant fuzzy overhead combos that people found that still didn't lead to much since her air sword special gave a soft KD that made the setup punishable on hit on certain matchups.
And this is by no means defending the flip on its current state, they definitely went overboard by buffing the rekkas, the air sword swings, and the flip on one single patch
I often feel like I am living in a different universe as a Jack-O main because I see so many comparisons to Zato and Venom but I will always see Jack-O as Strive's version of Juri - a character who starts out below average and gets good pressure from a resource that is not too hard to build.
Jack-0 can’t have never-ending pressure because she always runs out of minion meter at some point, and her using minions in neutral means she has less resources to pressure when she gets in. The design is self-limiting, so I personally can’t understand why she has been saddled by so many additional weaknesses. Why is she squishy? Why do the minions disappear when she blocks? Why is her only reversal option a command grab super that whiffs on anything airborne?
I’m not even hoping for Jack-O to get new stuff in season 2. I just hope she could ditch some of these additional drawbacks heaped on top of her self-limiting design.
I don't think Nagiha should be prioritized on a possible Anji overhaul. It's a good enugh midrange-low poke, it comboes into 5K->6HS->[Anji combo] at close range counter hit and wiffed or blocked it's pretty safe on any range that's not close.
I think Fan throw (Fuujin->P) should get the most care. It's most effective range is close to space yourself instead of getting cooked using Nagiha, but it is easily punisheable for every character. 6Ps and some attacks usually counter, you can backdash or dash through it (if he throws that on neutral, not a great decision) and you can jump through it too with a grab to lose the corner and a bit of your sanity in the process. Its only purpose is in neutral if the opponent is too tired of spin and is going to throw, in that case it doesn't lead to any damage other than 2K->2D and butterfly(236P) to reset the mixup.
The solution is as easy as to make the Fan a projectile. That will catch most of the mashing and dashing/jumping, and it will still be punishable by smart 6P and good DPs so it won't be incredibly broken.
Being his gameplan so reliable on pressuring the enemy on the corner to break the wall and have some safety on his followups (Making Nagiha safe by counter-super, Fuujin->HS->RC->[either 2S to make it overhead->low or 5D to make it overhead->overhead if you're feeling spicy], Fuujin->K->RC->S ... you get the point), having 3 of his 4 options punishable in the corner is a bit harsh.
Or at least that the way I play him. When he pops, the damage is insane but he usually has to spend meter to reach that.
Btw, the fact that Happy Chaos' green ball of doom not spin-able is wild to me.
I think anji has to be one of the most meter hungry in this game when you have to constantly prc to get openings and cover for the constant holes in your defense.
@@kbrxion5620 That can lead to some interesting situations, tho.
Having such an unique move will make the opponent guess up to 10 different options (all the followups+different timings to each) and overloading the mental stack is a cool win condition and even though he has no meter, are you willing to rule out the possibility of the overhead? It all comes down to risk-reward.
Something that noone seems to mention is that after knockdown->butterfly every fuujin followup is ultra-safe and potentially has big damage. That's why i think that buffing the other followups instead of Nagiha would be better for him.
That evil laugh after comparing the two knockdown situations between Anji and Ram is how you know Sajam's favorite thing to do to his opponent is the cheapest most bullshit option and he's having a blast
That's a real fighting game player right there
what about FDIBing the second hit of Ram's rekka. Can you make a video or talk about that in one video? Doubt you will see this but it would be interesting.
The biggest reason I think most most bad things are said about characters comes down to are they at Evo? No then trash can they win 80% of match ups? No trash
I-no will be able to dashblock next patch inshallah