Errata Big thanks to @accamera4509 for pointing it out: the disaccharide that is present in relatively large amounts in stingless bee honey is called trehalulose, not trehalose. Stingless bee honey contains 13-44 g/100 g trehalulose not trehalose. To clarify, in an old paper (S Bogdanov et al, 1996), "somewhat higher values of turanose and trehalose in the Trigona honeys" was noted, but the erroneous figures on trehalose in the beginning of the video are actually the figures for trehalulose from a recent paper (Mary T. F letcher, Natasha L. Hungerford et al, 2020) "the unusual disaccharide trehalulose as a major component representing between 13 and 44 g per 100 g" of stingless bee honey. So, we decided to blur it out, and while honey does contain trehalose, any mention of stingless bee honey specifically in this video is related to trehalulose.
Thanks alot! I enjoyed this video; I got to learn about 2 things I never knew existed. The “white shokupan” and how to achieve the white result and Trehalose. So thanks for teaching me something new.
This is amazing, I have never heard of making a crustless bread, and I've also never heard of trehalose! I've yet to try making a shokupan but I am excited to try, I will probably stick to the conventional crust version first. I need to acquire that pullman pan!
Hi ,thank you for your great presentation and useful informaton about bread. I am so excited and feel lucky to have found your channel recently. I have tried some of your Soft bread recipies but I don't know why the loaf of bread collapsed after baking.I have tried several times using Japanese bread flour and they ended the same.Thank you very much.
There are quite a few underlying reasons that could result in bread collapsing after baking. It's generally related to the structure of the bread dough, underkneading the dough, overfermenting the dough, or underbaking it could all cause something like this to happen. It's very important to make sure the dough is "strong" after mixing, it should either pass a windowpane test or readily detach itself from the mixing bowl like in this video. We also recommend using a very strong bread flour, with a protein content above 11%. Overfermentation can happen very quickly in warm room temperatures (>25 degrees Celcius) so if the dough looks very large and weak after proofing that could also cause the bread to collapse eventually. If the baking temperature is too high, it could result in an already done exterior with a raw dough interior which could also result in collapse, you can check the oven temperature with a thermometer to be sure. If you don't mind, it would be helpful to know more about the dough itself, such as the protein content of the bread flour you're using, room temperature, fermentation time, and other details.
0:10 0:08 @@NovitaListyaniThank you very much for your reply and suggestion. I used Japanese wheat flour (15%protein,10.7%moiseture).The room temperature while mixing the dough was about 25°c because it is now winter in Thailand.Fermentation time is about 2 hours.I baked my bread at 160° for 18 mins and 140° c for about 30 mins.(I must have done something wrong about baking temperature and baking time) .When I took the bread out of the oven, it looked fine but ,soon enough it collapsed . When I pulled it apart to see inside ,it was still uncooked. Normally I bake my no knead white bread (water, normal bread flour,yeast,butter,salt and some ground flax seeds and ferment the dough in the fridge overnight ) I normally bake it at 230°c for 15 mins and change to 180 ° for 30 mins which have no problem about collapsing.When I use the Japanese wheat flour to make Shokupun, the collapse of the bread started to take place more or less . But I won't give up and will try again till I get a good result .😅 0:08 0:08
Reading through this comment, it does sound like the main problem has something to do with the baking step. From what you mentioned, it seems like your oven may run a little cooler than our oven. Specifically, you mentioned that you usually bake at 230°C for 15 minutes and then at 180°C for 30 minutes. 230°C is a very high temperature, usually used for baking hard artisan bread. If you can bake soft bread/sandwich bread at this temperature without it burning or becoming incredibly brown then your oven definitely runs much cooler than ours. If you don't have an oven thermometer then perhaps you could try testing the temperature of the oven using sugar according to many online tutorials. If the temperature difference between the stated temperature and the actual temperature of the oven is very large, then there could be something off with the oven's thermostat.
Hi, maybe I didn’t explain myself properly. When I referred to baking at 230°c and reducing to to 180°c, this is for my normal bread. The issue I have is that when I baked an Japanese soft bread at 185, it collapsed. I’m wondering whether it is due to the japanese flour - 15% protein - or the wrong ratio of hydration that I applied. I have now just finished a loaf diligently following your "Make Perfect Japanese Milk Bread | Biga, Tangzhong, and Gelatinized Rice"recipe but with 30 g of whole-wheat flour and used honey instead of sugar .The result is excellent. Next,I plan to use Japanese flour to test with the same recipie to see if it caused the collapse before and will report back to you,teacher (❤❤❤). @@NovitaListyani1:08
@jirapornsoon3223 I'm glad to hear about your success in making the shokupan! It can absolutely be tricky to find the right flour and steps when trying new bread recipes, especially when trying a special bread like this. The important thing is just to have a happy time baking :)
That is so cool! 😁👍 I really appreciate the way you are keeping my life interesting. I know a woman that has to cut the crust off of her husband’s bread. Were it me , I would tell him to make his own if he didn’t like it, but she isn’t me. I need to learn this and teach her.
Thankyou, I never heard of beginning bread with poolish, this is so interesting and fermented flour lowers glycemic index making a white flour bread more healthy when made by fermenting.
I typically use 1 tsp/12g of sugar/honey for all my bread recipes, and my rolls come out looking very white, it never occurred to me that the Maillard reaction was working at a lower level due to the lack of sugar.
Came for the science, stayed for the bread…. I will have to try this for my Filipino wife who doesn’t like the crust on bread (while I LOVE a nice crusty artisan bread😊). I haven’t ever heard of Trehalose or even yet tried to find it in N.America. I’m wondering if Stevia would be a substitute? An all natural sweetener available in powder and liquid form, I have used it in baking desserts but not bread. As far as I know it doesn’t caramelize and I’m going to have to give this a try sometime.
Trehalose's level of sweetness is less than 45% of sucrose's level at a concentration of 22%, it may not be suitable to be used as a sugar substitute. It is more like a dough improver than a sugar substitute.
seeing this made me wonder why we had crusted toasts to begin with this crustless version makes more sense since most of us cut the crust or eat it just cause we are lazy (me) to cut it
I've just done this and it seems like the bread doesnt bounce/spring back. I also feel like the lift isnt as high when baked. I toasted the loaf slices later and they seem to dry up a little more too. Are these findings normal?
Nope. It should spring back when pressed, and, if you use a loaf pan of the right size for the bread, you should get a rectangular loaf of bread as shown in the video. This is a 67% hydration bread, a toasted slice should be dry.
There seems be a bit of confusion between trehalose and trehalulose. The former is a disaccharide of glucose, whereas trehalulose is a disaccharide of glucose and fructose. Trehalulose is an isomer of sucrose and is the sugar found in some honey. It would be interesting to know how influential the lower baking temperature has on the lack of browning. Trehalose definitely has some very interesting properties.
Thank you so much for pointing that out! Yes, indeed you are absolutely right. I can't believe we missed it, we actually did a video on stingless bee before, talking about trehalulose. I am going to pin the errata in the comments and blur out the misleading text in the opening! As for the low baking temperature of the bread, at 160°C, both the Maillard reaction and caramelization can still happen, causing a slight golden brown color just like what you can see in some of the images of Shiropan, which is part of why they cover it with flour before baking, with trehalose we don't have to worry as much about the color.
@@NovitaListyani I finally bought the Trehalose powder from Amazon and bake the Snowy Crustless Shokupan today. It came out perfect same as the sample in your picture. I am so happy and thank you so much for sharing the recipe ❤.
Again I'm puzzled about the width and depth of the presentation and the overwhelmingly rich science background. My wife (Japanese) always cuts off the crust when making "sandoichi". The crust she shreds with a moulinex cutter and uses the crums for "tonkatsu" pork chops.
Stingless bee farming, especially with the native species Tetragonula laeviceps, is very common here, many households have their small boxes of stingless bee that produce reasonable amount of honey every year. We made a video about it before: th-cam.com/video/UfNG-CCIhkE/w-d-xo.html
As far as nutritional value any bread ,other than artisan sourdough, is just much of a hazard to health as any food that contains sucrose. White breads are desert foods. (how to make is good to know but not a move towards better health) Truth is, white breads are HIGHER on the glycemic index and are a strong insulin stimulant , spike blood sugar and contribute to type II diabetes , insulin resistance and thus not a healthy staple food stuff.
Errata
Big thanks to @accamera4509 for pointing it out:
the disaccharide that is present in relatively large amounts in stingless bee honey is called trehalulose, not trehalose. Stingless bee honey
contains 13-44 g/100 g trehalulose not trehalose. To clarify, in an old paper (S Bogdanov et al, 1996), "somewhat higher values of turanose and trehalose in the Trigona honeys" was noted, but the erroneous figures on trehalose in the beginning of the video are actually the figures for trehalulose from a recent paper (Mary T. F letcher, Natasha L. Hungerford et al, 2020) "the unusual disaccharide trehalulose as a major component representing between 13 and 44 g per 100 g" of stingless bee honey. So, we decided to blur it out, and while honey does contain trehalose, any mention of stingless bee honey specifically in this video is related to trehalulose.
Thanks alot! I enjoyed this video; I got to learn about 2 things I never knew existed. The “white shokupan” and how to achieve the white result and Trehalose. So thanks for teaching me something new.
I love all your videos. Very scientific and well explained. Keep them coming. Thanks
Thanks!
This is amazing, I have never heard of making a crustless bread, and I've also never heard of trehalose! I've yet to try making a shokupan but I am excited to try, I will probably stick to the conventional crust version first. I need to acquire that pullman pan!
It's a good idea to start with a conventional crust version first, I hope you enjoy it!
Hi ,thank you for your great presentation and useful informaton about bread. I am so excited and feel lucky to have found your channel recently. I have tried some of your Soft bread recipies but I don't know why the loaf of bread collapsed after baking.I have tried several times using Japanese bread flour and they ended the same.Thank you very much.
There are quite a few underlying reasons that could result in bread collapsing after baking. It's generally related to the structure of the bread dough, underkneading the dough, overfermenting the dough, or underbaking it could all cause something like this to happen. It's very important to make sure the dough is "strong" after mixing, it should either pass a windowpane test or readily detach itself from the mixing bowl like in this video. We also recommend using a very strong bread flour, with a protein content above 11%. Overfermentation can happen very quickly in warm room temperatures (>25 degrees Celcius) so if the dough looks very large and weak after proofing that could also cause the bread to collapse eventually. If the baking temperature is too high, it could result in an already done exterior with a raw dough interior which could also result in collapse, you can check the oven temperature with a thermometer to be sure. If you don't mind, it would be helpful to know more about the dough itself, such as the protein content of the bread flour you're using, room temperature, fermentation time, and other details.
0:10 0:08 @@NovitaListyaniThank you very much for your reply and suggestion. I used Japanese wheat flour (15%protein,10.7%moiseture).The room temperature while mixing the dough was about 25°c because it is now winter in Thailand.Fermentation time is about 2 hours.I baked my bread at 160° for 18 mins and 140° c for about 30 mins.(I must have done something wrong about baking temperature and baking time) .When I took the bread out of the oven, it looked fine but ,soon enough it collapsed . When I pulled it apart to see inside ,it was still uncooked. Normally I bake my no knead white bread (water, normal bread flour,yeast,butter,salt and some ground flax seeds and ferment the dough in the fridge overnight ) I normally bake it at 230°c for 15 mins and change to 180 ° for 30 mins which have no problem about collapsing.When I use the Japanese wheat flour to make Shokupun, the collapse of the bread started to take place more or less . But I won't give up and will try again till I get a good result .😅 0:08 0:08
Reading through this comment, it does sound like the main problem has something to do with the baking step. From what you mentioned, it seems like your oven may run a little cooler than our oven. Specifically, you mentioned that you usually bake at 230°C for 15 minutes and then at 180°C for 30 minutes. 230°C is a very high temperature, usually used for baking hard artisan bread. If you can bake soft bread/sandwich bread at this temperature without it burning or becoming incredibly brown then your oven definitely runs much cooler than ours. If you don't have an oven thermometer then perhaps you could try testing the temperature of the oven using sugar according to many online tutorials. If the temperature difference between the stated temperature and the actual temperature of the oven is very large, then there could be something off with the oven's thermostat.
Hi, maybe I didn’t explain myself properly. When I referred to baking at 230°c and reducing to to 180°c, this is for my normal bread. The issue I have is that when I baked an Japanese soft bread at 185, it collapsed. I’m wondering whether it is due to the japanese flour - 15% protein - or the wrong ratio of hydration that I applied.
I have now just finished a loaf diligently following your "Make Perfect Japanese Milk Bread | Biga, Tangzhong, and Gelatinized Rice"recipe but with 30 g of whole-wheat flour and used honey instead of sugar .The result is excellent.
Next,I plan to use Japanese flour to test with the same recipie to see if it caused the collapse before and will report back to you,teacher (❤❤❤).
@@NovitaListyani1:08
@jirapornsoon3223 I'm glad to hear about your success in making the shokupan! It can absolutely be tricky to find the right flour and steps when trying new bread recipes, especially when trying a special bread like this. The important thing is just to have a happy time baking :)
So much science, im learning so much ❤ txxx
I just tried and love it!
Thanks for the information. I will definitely try this method. I especially enjoyed the background rooster sound: feel so at home here....
Glad it was helpful!
It makes great stuffing👍
Thanks ❤
That is so cool! 😁👍
I really appreciate the way you are keeping my life interesting.
I know a woman that has to cut the crust off of her husband’s bread.
Were it me , I would tell him to make his own if he didn’t like it, but she isn’t me.
I need to learn this and teach her.
That would be awesome! Teach her :)
I would just eat the crust! 😂
Obrigada pela sua explicação! Você está de parabéns!
Thankyou, I never heard of beginning bread with poolish, this is so interesting and fermented flour lowers glycemic index making a white flour bread more healthy when made by fermenting.
I typically use 1 tsp/12g of sugar/honey for all my bread recipes, and my rolls come out looking very white, it never occurred to me that the Maillard reaction was working at a lower level due to the lack of sugar.
Can we substitute honey to sugar?
Hello madame
Is that trehalose sugar or powder ?
Thank you for your response 💖 🌹🥀
Wow!!
Came for the science, stayed for the bread…. I will have to try this for my Filipino wife who doesn’t like the crust on bread (while I LOVE a nice crusty artisan bread😊). I haven’t ever heard of Trehalose or even yet tried to find it in N.America. I’m wondering if Stevia would be a substitute? An all natural sweetener available in powder and liquid form, I have used it in baking desserts but not bread. As far as I know it doesn’t caramelize and I’m going to have to give this a try sometime.
Thanks for watching! Unfortunately you can't substitute trehalose with stevia. It's a totally different natural sugar.
@@NovitaListyani Thanks. Good to know. Off to find some Trehalose.
Amazon has trehalose for reasonable prices.
@@MattBolton-gb9gi Cheers
I wonder if you can substitute the bread flour with wheat flour
Bread flour _is_ wheat flour with a high protein content; typically ranging from 12-14% protein.
@ ooh thanks for letting me know! Your videos are very well rounded :)
Can i swap the sugar in other recipes with the same amount with trehalose?
Trehalose's level of sweetness is less than 45% of sucrose's level at a concentration of 22%, it may not be suitable to be used as a sugar substitute. It is more like a dough improver than a sugar substitute.
Can u explain why didn't u use yodane?
seeing this made me wonder why we had crusted toasts to begin with
this crustless version makes more sense since most of us cut the crust or eat it just cause we are lazy (me) to cut it
Some people love the crust, especially from a well baked high quality loaf bread 😊
I've just done this and it seems like the bread doesnt bounce/spring back. I also feel like the lift isnt as high when baked.
I toasted the loaf slices later and they seem to dry up a little more too.
Are these findings normal?
Nope. It should spring back when pressed, and, if you use a loaf pan of the right size for the bread, you should get a rectangular loaf of bread as shown in the video. This is a 67% hydration bread, a toasted slice should be dry.
Could you make a video on how tylose (CMC) affects fried food like donut? How much % of it should I put to make it less oily.
Thank for the suggestion.
@@NovitaListyaniI started with 1% but it made ny dough very dry from 65% hydration I bumped it to 75% with no problem
There seems be a bit of confusion between trehalose and trehalulose. The former is a disaccharide of glucose, whereas trehalulose is a disaccharide of glucose and fructose. Trehalulose is an isomer of sucrose and is the sugar found in some honey.
It would be interesting to know how influential the lower baking temperature has on the lack of browning.
Trehalose definitely has some very interesting properties.
Thank you so much for pointing that out! Yes, indeed you are absolutely right. I can't believe we missed it, we actually did a video on stingless bee before, talking about trehalulose. I am going to pin the errata in the comments and blur out the misleading text in the opening!
As for the low baking temperature of the bread, at 160°C, both the Maillard reaction and caramelization can still happen, causing a slight golden brown color just like what you can see in some of the images of Shiropan, which is part of why they cover it with flour before baking, with trehalose we don't have to worry as much about the color.
What's that nonstick coating?
We use a store-bought cake release/pan release, you could replace it with butter or oil.
👋💓🙏😃
Ajaib ✨✨
cool idea, great video , personally id just stop wasting food for no good reason don't like bread crust don't eat bread lol
🤩🤩🤩 miam
Where do you get the Trehalose power?
We bought it online.
@@NovitaListyani I finally bought the Trehalose powder from Amazon and bake the Snowy Crustless Shokupan today. It came out perfect same as the sample in your picture. I am so happy and thank you so much for sharing the recipe ❤.
Why are they cutting the crusts off the bread to begin with?
??????????
The best thing on the bread is the crust👍
Crust is fantastic for many things.
For a nice pbj, I don't prefer the crust.
Again I'm puzzled about the width and depth of the presentation and the overwhelmingly rich science background.
My wife (Japanese) always cuts off the crust when making "sandoichi". The crust she shreds with a moulinex cutter and uses the crums for "tonkatsu" pork chops.
Thanks for sharing!
Where and how do you get stingless honeybees without paying an arm and a leg?
Stingless bee farming, especially with the native species Tetragonula laeviceps, is very common here, many households have their small boxes of stingless bee that produce reasonable amount of honey every year. We made a video about it before: th-cam.com/video/UfNG-CCIhkE/w-d-xo.html
As far as nutritional value any bread ,other than artisan sourdough, is just much of a hazard to health as any food that contains sucrose.
White breads are desert foods. (how to make is good to know but not a move towards better health)
Truth is, white breads are HIGHER on the glycemic index and are a strong insulin stimulant , spike blood sugar and contribute to type II diabetes , insulin resistance and thus not a healthy staple food stuff.
❤❤❤❤...