I have to take a break from your videos until I can get caught up on my reading (I already have a bedside stacking); you always end up inciting and exciting me, Outlaw, into buying something. I always get an education, though.That Orwell video was great. Cheers.
I've been reading Disch since the 70s. I met him once and he was charming and humorous. He hadn't yet fallen out with the SF crowd. I hadn't read "Camp Concentration" though I had read "Fundamental Disch" and his Prisoner novelization. I found out about his horror fiction, though it's not my favourite genre. In Disch's case I'd make an exception since he excels in any genre. Shame about the bookstore footage..
Yes, it's not typical 'Horror', but something else. I'd love to have met him, one of the few I didn't meet back in the 80s. I'm sure I'd have taken to him big time.
Great to see your continued advocacy for reading Disch. Love to see more on the quartet in the future. Never heard of Craig Strete. Interested in learning more! Just happen to be reading Disch's 'The Dreams Our Stuff Is Made Of' c1998. May make a couple videos based on the ideas within.
Yeah, 'The Dreams...' is a good book. Most people have never heard of Craig Kee Strete - I first read him back in the 1980s. He was the pre-eminent Native American SF and Fantasy writer and acclaimed by personalities as broad as Borges and John Lennon. He knew Jim Morrison of The Doors, which is how I came to his work. His novel 'Burn Down The Night' is a thinly-disguised autobiography of one night he spent in LA with Morrison, indulging in dangerous behaviour...he's an interesting writer.
hi, steve. so glad to hear that the sub my disch did not disappoint. can't say i'm surprised about that. i've come to think there's nothing by disch that i won't like. i've been reading his stuff this past year and, boy, have i been impressed. on wings of song was just fantastic and made a big impression on me for some reason. i think it's what you said about how he portrays characters. amazing. i picked up a copy of the m.d. a few months ago for a couple of dollars at a used book fair in santa barbara while visiting my brother. wasn't sure if i should do so as i'm not that big a fan of horror but figured i would take a chance. it was literally only two dollars. your review of the sub has made me realize how fortuitous i was to have come across it. i'll keep an eye out for the rest of that thematic series. i just read that michel houellebecq is a big disch fan and wrote as much in sérotonine. funny what one comes across. btw, i'm trying to get my hands on a copy of annihilation but it's proving tricky at the moment, i'm reading you don't belong here: how three women rewrote the story of war by elizabeth becker. it's for a book club with friends from my days in phnom penh. can't say i as looking forward to reading it but i've been happily surprised. an easy and interesting read. next up sf wise? well, i think it will have to be the genocides by disch always looking forward to your next video. cheers a
@@outlawbookselleroriginal that's a great word: humane. i found the portrayal of that protagonist in on wings of songs to be perfect. he seems like a real person, an all around decent human being. that's an amazing thing for a writer to do: i.e. make a fictional character seem truly real. it's my pleasure to support your channel. take care, buddy!
@@athoszubiaur2144 Many thanks. I think sometimes the more conventional SF writers lose touch with the Humane, suffering from a kind of neurodiverse fixation on tech ideas for their own sake- we even do this as readers. What fascinates me about so many SF stories and novels is that the characters so often seem to live in a time without Culture or personal interest in the Arts, for example. Dick and Silverberg always allow for this, as does Gibson, whose understanding that Art and Culture are essential to understanding where we stand in History allows him to create more convincing futures than many.
I’ve only read the first two in the Quartet, but I will strongly recommend you read The MD, which while not as good prosaically as The Businessman, really is an enjoyable, gripping, and novel mixture of dark mythic fantasy, dystopian SF, and family drama.
Years ago I bought all four of the very handsome University of Minnesota Press trade paperback editions. Haven't read them yet though. 😳 However, as I average 100 books per year they will eventually trickle their way to the top of my reading pile! 😉
No problem. Search him on my channel and you'll see a 'career overview' video which covers pretty much all his fiction. He was a very important writer in my view and too neglected. I noticed you are using David's book, the best of the 'list' books- better than mine, as I had more commercial restraints on word length etc and a different brief- and he's a great guy. I've had the honour of having my work published between the same covers as DP in the 'Deep Ends' antghology series.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal If I were to buy a copy of your book, is there a way that benefits you the most in terms of royalties etc.? I would like to do a few different lists over the next couple of years to get a wider knowledge of the genre
@@SciFiFinds As long as you buy a new copy, I get a royalty. It is print on demand now, so you won't find it in a bookshop, but you can order online, the links cited at the top of my channel page lead you to different options. It's not a 'top' or 'best' or 'favourite' list, but instead an overview of what the genre is in 100 books....
I've read The Genocides and Camp Concentration. Maybe I'll read 334 next or some short stories. It's interesting to learn about the breadth of Disch's work though. Thanks for the video!
You'll find a video on the channel that provides a 'career overview' of TMD's work, posted here probably late last year or early this year. I cover all his fiction apart from the children's books in it. '334' is superb, you'll love it.
Huge Disch fan here and have tried to get to all his novels/stories ever since encountering him as a teenager with his collection: Fun With Your New Head. I cant wait to hear your thoughts on , THE M.D., which is my favorite of the Wisconsin Gothic quartet. The mordant humor is rampant in it and there is also a feeling of sadness? melacholia? You be the judge . Ive read it more than once just to marvel at his skill and the convoluted story's twists.
It must be an epidemic, Stephen, of reader's block underway, because I've had my fill (having read at least 100 short stories and at least a dozen novels) these past two+ months but you mentioned that most people have a tried and true, dependable author they can turn to in these instances in order to break the block but I must confess, I don't seem to have one. Perhaps that's fortuitous given the overload I've experienced. That aside, you gave a riveting overview of not only The Sub, but of Disch himself and it was a treat to have been given a good insight into both from a man with a mountain of knowledge in the world of literature and publishing. Looking forward, also, to next Grumpy Old Men. Cheers!
Thanks as always, Rick. It's good to have a 'few in reserve' by favourite authors as turning to these is the sure way out of a block. Great to hear from you as ever, I hope you are well, my friend.
I see ICU… Paint Your Windows White! (I have the VHS and recently found the 12 inch at Raves From the Grave, Frome. I don’t listen/view them often but I do treasure them). For any confused readers ICU are a punk-infused Hawkwind linked band. Pass-out is the key album to listen to.
Big Disch fan here, as I've said before. I bought The Businessman on Euston station, not realising it was a horror story (which I'm not typically a fan of), but just happy to find a new Disch; and then read M.D. and - I think - The Priest. Never heard of The Sub, though, so will hunt it down. Was rereading 334 recently and was struck, as you point out, by the humanity of his characters; it reminded me, oddly, of the work of other US writers of 'realistic' fiction of the time, such as Hubert Selby Jr. I also had that edition of 1985 and have always remembered one of its jokes: that by 1985, Arabs had bought up nearly every commercial property in London and rebranded them - so, for example, a popular hotel chain had become Al Idayinn. I'll get me coat ...
@@outlawbookselleroriginal I watch all the videos but don't always have anything to add! And I'm also in the throes of writing a new book ... My first SF novel in 40 years. 😮 Influenced, I'd say by 334 and later Ballard.
Subjectively AMAZING timing! I was recently shopping amongst hard to find authors online (when French SF Series appeared - perhaps triggered by a search of Boulle) and one of the pages left open , to be considered in the light of day, was The Sub by Disch! I had to make a call, I didn't get it, and I guess I made the wrong one!
I have The Sub, but haven't read it yet. I have had a reading block too for about a month. I'm going back to rereading Lucius Shepard to see if I can break it.
Sorry to hear about your lost time, footage, and money. I just started Earth Abides and finding it very readable. I have The Genocides per your recommendation on my shelf.
Well, that's the way it goes sometimes, but thanks. 'The Genocides' raised many eyebrows back in the 1960s and continues to shock readers new to TMD even now.
Well yes- and though this isn't the profession of the character, she does turn out to be submissive- but not through choice- to other entities. Disch' use of the title initially seems inconsequential, but it's true meaning arises later in the narrative.
I enjoyed The Priest when I read it years ago, but even though I hail from Minnesota myself, I could never finish any of the other books in the quartet. I'm not even sure why. Disch's non-fiction always seemed more interesting than his fiction to me, I guess. My local sf bookshop, the storied Dreamhaven books, has a good supply of Disch books on sale for cheap, mainly because (I believe) the owner inherited them from Disch himself via Disch's brother, who lived most of his life in Minnesota, and who was also an acquaintance, incidentally, of the father of an old girlfriend of mine. That's my faint Disch connection. I was not far from his Union Square apartment in NY when I read about his death. I wish there was more autobiographical material about him; what is the source of his intense animosity toward the Catholic church, and why was he so doom-and-gloom to being with? When I think of all the copies of his books I've seen over the years, secondhand, discounted, or remaindered, it seems to make a monument to all he deserved and didn't get.
Yes, it's a great shame there isn't more autobiographical material, as you say. I'd love someone to write a bio of him, but of course the market for it would be tiny, Scott Bradfield knew him, for example. Trouble is, we'll probably never get bios of the less popular SF writers, great pity.
Hi Steve, I managed to get hold of in hardback the businessman the priest and MD but haven’t come across or read the sub yet! So I guess I’ll keep looking for that one. But this week I have acquired all five Philip K Dick short story collection books starting with beyond here lies the wub and the last one is we can remember it for you wholesale all in nice condition very pleased and I’ve just started reading the man who fell to earth . I recently finished hell house by Richard Matheson.Not my favourite by him but a quick easy read . I’m ready to dive into some good old sf after my recent horror detour .
Good scores. I have to say that despite its fame, 'Hell House' is probably my least favourite Matheson- I'm normally a massive admirer of his work. The Tevis is brilliant and of course the PKD stories are must-haves.
Could it be said that most novels are in someway of bricolage? If it can be declared that horror is not a genre, would it not be possible to also say that many other genres equally don’t exist but are really just bricolage? I’ve always been curious about your insistence that horror is not a genre. Given that many people write it and consider themselves writers of the genre of horror. Some of those people have had amazingly successful careers. Anyway, I think it’s an interesting stance to take and it raises good questions.
Hi Jack, good to hear from you. No, Horror is different to SF and Fantasy, as it is less pure and more about approach, tone and subject matter (and it is arguably a marketing category as much as anything else)- think of it this way: the source of 'Fear'- the subject of Horror if you will - can have three distinct natures: SF based, Fantasy based or Crime (Realism) based. If you take films as more simple, direct examples, 'The Thing' is SF-Horror, 'Dracula' is Fantasy (as its terrror arises from the Supernatural) while 'The Texas Chainsaw Massacre' is possible and Crime-based. So 'Horror' is a bricolage that can encompass the three main Genres of Fiction (Realism, Fantasy and SF). It is impure and unbounded, so is too messy to be useful as a genre, despite people describing it as such. Yes, there are writers or 'Horror', but they are categorised as such mostly through the marketing and packaging of their books. Philosophically, they can draw on the natural and rational in SF, the supernatural in Fantasy and the real in Crime. I think you can see what I'm getting at....
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Thank you, Steve, this might be a worthy basis for an updated and in-depth focused video on this topic and your thoughts on it. I feel like one of the defining elements of any genre is that it is recognizable without additional input or definition. And when it comes to horror, as much as Science Fiction or sword and sorcery or even space opera, horror is completely recognizable as horror. Because horror is a mode of expression for an author, or a filmmaker. No other explanation needed. And it would seem to be something that encompasses its own modality, that is, horror is its own genre.
@@JackMyersPhotography Well, I did a 'Folk Horror' season in the early days of the channel that included a video entitled 'Why Horror Is Not A Genre', so I'll try and find a link for you. You see, I don't consider S&S or Space Opera as Genres- they are subgenres. My feeling is that Genres appeared as taxonomic subsets of Story itself as writing evolved in line with History, thus: Once there was only Story, in which truth-telling, myth, religion and fiction were all combined. With the dawning of the Age of Reason and the decline of Magic (meaning religion and susperstition, the Supernatural) came a new objective awareness of the Real and factual. At this point, Fiction, distinct from Story as a construct, emerged. Supernatural tales (Fantasy) became distinct from Realism (Which was itself then a new category and the first Fiction Genre, which in turn created a need for a second Genre, Fantasy). SF emerged as the third and final Genre during the period from the late Enlightenment to the Industrial Revolution, when the Scientific Method of theory followed by repeated proof-making experiment was confirmed. So my take on Genre accomdoates an historical approach that ultimately allows for clear distinction between Fantasy and SF. Yes, there's a marketing element, but 'Horror', as I've said, can be SF, Fantasy or Realism, being a bricolage of all these Genres, using them as a toolkit to achieve its aims. Genres are categories at the end of the day and to use them taxonomically, with clear nomenclature and borders helps us be clear in our thinking on what SF, Fantasy and Realism are. I feel these distinctions are important for critical purposes. Subgenres are just that, trope or motif emphasising categories within Genres. This is why I don't regard Crime Fiction- for example- as a Genre, as it's a subset of Realism. Similarly, the Western. The central conflict between SF and Fantasy - the extrapolative against the anchronistic - is what makes Genre useful, I feel.
I have to take a break from your videos until I can get caught up on my reading (I already have a bedside stacking); you always end up inciting and exciting me, Outlaw, into buying something. I always get an education, though.That Orwell video was great. Cheers.
I've been reading Disch since the 70s. I met him once and he was charming and humorous. He hadn't yet fallen out with the SF crowd. I hadn't read "Camp Concentration" though I had read "Fundamental Disch" and his Prisoner novelization. I found out about his horror fiction, though it's not my favourite genre. In Disch's case I'd make an exception since he excels in any genre. Shame about the bookstore footage..
Yes, it's not typical 'Horror', but something else. I'd love to have met him, one of the few I didn't meet back in the 80s. I'm sure I'd have taken to him big time.
Great to see your continued advocacy for reading Disch. Love to see more on the quartet in the future. Never heard of Craig Strete. Interested in learning more! Just happen to be reading Disch's 'The Dreams Our Stuff Is Made Of' c1998. May make a couple videos based on the ideas within.
Yeah, 'The Dreams...' is a good book. Most people have never heard of Craig Kee Strete - I first read him back in the 1980s. He was the pre-eminent Native American SF and Fantasy writer and acclaimed by personalities as broad as Borges and John Lennon. He knew Jim Morrison of The Doors, which is how I came to his work. His novel 'Burn Down The Night' is a thinly-disguised autobiography of one night he spent in LA with Morrison, indulging in dangerous behaviour...he's an interesting writer.
hi, steve. so glad to hear that the sub my disch did not disappoint. can't say i'm surprised about that. i've come to think there's nothing by disch that i won't like. i've been reading his stuff this past year and, boy, have i been impressed. on wings of song was just fantastic and made a big impression on me for some reason. i think it's what you said about how he portrays characters. amazing.
i picked up a copy of the m.d. a few months ago for a couple of dollars at a used book fair in santa barbara while visiting my brother. wasn't sure if i should do so as i'm not that big a fan of horror but figured i would take a chance. it was literally only two dollars. your review of the sub has made me realize how fortuitous i was to have come across it. i'll keep an eye out for the rest of that thematic series. i just read that michel houellebecq is a big disch fan and wrote as much in sérotonine. funny what one comes across. btw, i'm trying to get my hands on a copy of annihilation but it's proving tricky
at the moment, i'm reading you don't belong here: how three women rewrote the story of war by elizabeth becker. it's for a book club with friends from my days in phnom penh. can't say i as looking forward to reading it but i've been happily surprised. an easy and interesting read.
next up sf wise? well, i think it will have to be the genocides by disch
always looking forward to your next video.
cheers
a
Thanks, my friend, for your continued loyalty. I just find that Tom could do no wrong -entertaining, challenging, humane and wise!
@@outlawbookselleroriginal that's a great word: humane. i found the portrayal of that protagonist in on wings of songs to be perfect. he seems like a real person, an all around decent human being. that's an amazing thing for a writer to do: i.e. make a fictional character seem truly real.
it's my pleasure to support your channel. take care, buddy!
@@athoszubiaur2144 Many thanks. I think sometimes the more conventional SF writers lose touch with the Humane, suffering from a kind of neurodiverse fixation on tech ideas for their own sake- we even do this as readers. What fascinates me about so many SF stories and novels is that the characters so often seem to live in a time without Culture or personal interest in the Arts, for example. Dick and Silverberg always allow for this, as does Gibson, whose understanding that Art and Culture are essential to understanding where we stand in History allows him to create more convincing futures than many.
@@outlawbookselleroriginalI've always found Dick to be humane writer; the tech and sometimes the plot seemed secondary to the human.
@@shannonm.townsend1232 agreed
I’ve only read the first two in the Quartet, but I will strongly recommend you read The MD, which while not as good prosaically as The Businessman, really is an enjoyable, gripping, and novel mixture of dark mythic fantasy, dystopian SF, and family drama.
You betcha!
334 is one of my top 10 sf books. 334 is the highest test cricket innings scored by a Pakistani batsman, my namesake: Hanif Mohammed.
Yeah, '334' is very special.
Years ago I bought all four of the very handsome University of Minnesota Press trade paperback editions. Haven't read them yet though. 😳 However, as I average 100 books per year they will eventually trickle their way to the top of my reading pile! 😉
Those are nice books. I must say I'm glad I left some Disch aside for my dotage, as I think I love him even more now than I did 30+ years ago!
Got a few Disch books to read from David Pringle's list, great to learn more about his other works. Thanks again
No problem. Search him on my channel and you'll see a 'career overview' video which covers pretty much all his fiction. He was a very important writer in my view and too neglected. I noticed you are using David's book, the best of the 'list' books- better than mine, as I had more commercial restraints on word length etc and a different brief- and he's a great guy. I've had the honour of having my work published between the same covers as DP in the 'Deep Ends' antghology series.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal If I were to buy a copy of your book, is there a way that benefits you the most in terms of royalties etc.? I would like to do a few different lists over the next couple of years to get a wider knowledge of the genre
@@SciFiFinds As long as you buy a new copy, I get a royalty. It is print on demand now, so you won't find it in a bookshop, but you can order online, the links cited at the top of my channel page lead you to different options. It's not a 'top' or 'best' or 'favourite' list, but instead an overview of what the genre is in 100 books....
I've read The Genocides and Camp Concentration. Maybe I'll read 334 next or some short stories. It's interesting to learn about the breadth of Disch's work though. Thanks for the video!
You'll find a video on the channel that provides a 'career overview' of TMD's work, posted here probably late last year or early this year. I cover all his fiction apart from the children's books in it. '334' is superb, you'll love it.
Huge Disch fan here and have tried to get to all his novels/stories ever since encountering him as a teenager with his collection: Fun With Your New Head. I cant wait to hear your thoughts on , THE M.D., which is my favorite of the Wisconsin Gothic quartet. The mordant humor is rampant in it and there is also a feeling of sadness? melacholia? You be the judge . Ive read it more than once just to marvel at his skill and the convoluted story's twists.
Yes, I'm looking forward to it now. Returning to Disch in recent years after a very long hiatus has been a great joy.
It must be an epidemic, Stephen, of reader's block underway, because I've had my fill (having read at least 100 short stories and at least a dozen novels) these past two+ months but you mentioned that most people have a tried and true, dependable author they can turn to in these instances in order to break the block but I must confess, I don't seem to have one. Perhaps that's fortuitous given the overload I've experienced. That aside, you gave a riveting overview of not only The Sub, but of Disch himself and it was a treat to have been given a good insight into both from a man with a mountain of knowledge in the world of literature and publishing. Looking forward, also, to next Grumpy Old Men. Cheers!
Thanks as always, Rick. It's good to have a 'few in reserve' by favourite authors as turning to these is the sure way out of a block. Great to hear from you as ever, I hope you are well, my friend.
I see ICU… Paint Your Windows White! (I have the VHS and recently found the 12 inch at Raves From the Grave, Frome. I don’t listen/view them often but I do treasure them). For any confused readers ICU are a punk-infused Hawkwind linked band. Pass-out is the key album to listen to.
Raj neesh ✌🏻❤️
Yes, I love ICU, saw them back in the day, have everything. Brilliant band.
...and who wears the bucket now?
Big Disch fan here, as I've said before. I bought The Businessman on Euston station, not realising it was a horror story (which I'm not typically a fan of), but just happy to find a new Disch; and then read M.D. and - I think - The Priest. Never heard of The Sub, though, so will hunt it down. Was rereading 334 recently and was struck, as you point out, by the humanity of his characters; it reminded me, oddly, of the work of other US writers of 'realistic' fiction of the time, such as Hubert Selby Jr.
I also had that edition of 1985 and have always remembered one of its jokes: that by 1985, Arabs had bought up nearly every commercial property in London and rebranded them - so, for example, a popular hotel chain had become Al Idayinn. I'll get me coat ...
Yeah, Burgess was right about some stuff. As for TD, he just always delivers, I find. Good to see you posting here again.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal I watch all the videos but don't always have anything to add! And I'm also in the throes of writing a new book ... My first SF novel in 40 years. 😮 Influenced, I'd say by 334 and later Ballard.
@@keithdixon6595 Hope it goes well, Keith!
Subjectively AMAZING timing! I was recently shopping amongst hard to find authors online (when French SF Series appeared - perhaps triggered by a search of Boulle) and one of the pages left open , to be considered in the light of day, was The Sub by Disch! I had to make a call, I didn't get it, and I guess I made the wrong one!
I have The Sub, but haven't read it yet. I have had a reading block too for about a month. I'm going back to rereading Lucius Shepard to see if I can break it.
Disch is the way to go!
Funnily enough, Dan, I've been thinking I may do a Shepard next, as I'm in the mood for very high quality stories, so.....
Sorry to hear about your lost time, footage, and money. I just started Earth Abides and finding it very readable. I have The Genocides per your recommendation on my shelf.
Well, that's the way it goes sometimes, but thanks. 'The Genocides' raised many eyebrows back in the 1960s and continues to shock readers new to TMD even now.
Of course, 'sub' is also a BDSM kink colloquialism for 'submissive'. These Disch novels are titled after professions.
Well yes- and though this isn't the profession of the character, she does turn out to be submissive- but not through choice- to other entities. Disch' use of the title initially seems inconsequential, but it's true meaning arises later in the narrative.
I enjoyed The Priest when I read it years ago, but even though I hail from Minnesota myself, I could never finish any of the other books in the quartet. I'm not even sure why. Disch's non-fiction always seemed more interesting than his fiction to me, I guess. My local sf bookshop, the storied Dreamhaven books, has a good supply of Disch books on sale for cheap, mainly because (I believe) the owner inherited them from Disch himself via Disch's brother, who lived most of his life in Minnesota, and who was also an acquaintance, incidentally, of the father of an old girlfriend of mine. That's my faint Disch connection. I was not far from his Union Square apartment in NY when I read about his death. I wish there was more autobiographical material about him; what is the source of his intense animosity toward the Catholic church, and why was he so doom-and-gloom to being with? When I think of all the copies of his books I've seen over the years, secondhand, discounted, or remaindered, it seems to make a monument to all he deserved and didn't get.
Yes, it's a great shame there isn't more autobiographical material, as you say. I'd love someone to write a bio of him, but of course the market for it would be tiny, Scott Bradfield knew him, for example. Trouble is, we'll probably never get bios of the less popular SF writers, great pity.
Hi Steve, I managed to get hold of in hardback the businessman the priest and MD but haven’t come across or read the sub yet! So I guess I’ll keep looking for that one. But this week I have acquired all five Philip K Dick short story collection books starting with beyond here lies the wub and the last one is we can remember it for you wholesale all in nice condition very pleased and I’ve just started reading the man who fell to earth . I recently finished hell house by Richard Matheson.Not my favourite by him but a quick easy read . I’m ready to dive into some good old sf after my recent horror detour .
Good scores. I have to say that despite its fame, 'Hell House' is probably my least favourite Matheson- I'm normally a massive admirer of his work. The Tevis is brilliant and of course the PKD stories are must-haves.
I have that edition of 1985 also!
Nicest one there ever was!
Could it be said that most novels are in someway of bricolage? If it can be declared that horror is not a genre, would it not be possible to also say that many other genres equally don’t exist but are really just bricolage? I’ve always been curious about your insistence that horror is not a genre. Given that many people write it and consider themselves writers of the genre of horror. Some of those people have had amazingly successful careers. Anyway, I think it’s an interesting stance to take and it raises good questions.
Hi Jack, good to hear from you. No, Horror is different to SF and Fantasy, as it is less pure and more about approach, tone and subject matter (and it is arguably a marketing category as much as anything else)- think of it this way: the source of 'Fear'- the subject of Horror if you will - can have three distinct natures: SF based, Fantasy based or Crime (Realism) based. If you take films as more simple, direct examples, 'The Thing' is SF-Horror, 'Dracula' is Fantasy (as its terrror arises from the Supernatural) while 'The Texas Chainsaw Massacre' is possible and Crime-based. So 'Horror' is a bricolage that can encompass the three main Genres of Fiction (Realism, Fantasy and SF). It is impure and unbounded, so is too messy to be useful as a genre, despite people describing it as such. Yes, there are writers or 'Horror', but they are categorised as such mostly through the marketing and packaging of their books. Philosophically, they can draw on the natural and rational in SF, the supernatural in Fantasy and the real in Crime. I think you can see what I'm getting at....
@@outlawbookselleroriginal i could hear you talk about literature all day!
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Thank you, Steve, this might be a worthy basis for an updated and in-depth focused video on this topic and your thoughts on it.
I feel like one of the defining elements of any genre is that it is recognizable without additional input or definition.
And when it comes to horror, as much as Science Fiction or sword and sorcery or even space opera, horror is completely recognizable as horror. Because horror is a mode of expression for an author, or a filmmaker. No other explanation needed.
And it would seem to be something that encompasses its own modality, that is, horror is its own genre.
@@JackMyersPhotography Well, I did a 'Folk Horror' season in the early days of the channel that included a video entitled 'Why Horror Is Not A Genre', so I'll try and find a link for you. You see, I don't consider S&S or Space Opera as Genres- they are subgenres. My feeling is that Genres appeared as taxonomic subsets of Story itself as writing evolved in line with History, thus: Once there was only Story, in which truth-telling, myth, religion and fiction were all combined. With the dawning of the Age of Reason and the decline of Magic (meaning religion and susperstition, the Supernatural) came a new objective awareness of the Real and factual. At this point, Fiction, distinct from Story as a construct, emerged. Supernatural tales (Fantasy) became distinct from Realism (Which was itself then a new category and the first Fiction Genre, which in turn created a need for a second Genre, Fantasy). SF emerged as the third and final Genre during the period from the late Enlightenment to the Industrial Revolution, when the Scientific Method of theory followed by repeated proof-making experiment was confirmed. So my take on Genre accomdoates an historical approach that ultimately allows for clear distinction between Fantasy and SF. Yes, there's a marketing element, but 'Horror', as I've said, can be SF, Fantasy or Realism, being a bricolage of all these Genres, using them as a toolkit to achieve its aims. Genres are categories at the end of the day and to use them taxonomically, with clear nomenclature and borders helps us be clear in our thinking on what SF, Fantasy and Realism are. I feel these distinctions are important for critical purposes. Subgenres are just that, trope or motif emphasising categories within Genres. This is why I don't regard Crime Fiction- for example- as a Genre, as it's a subset of Realism. Similarly, the Western. The central conflict between SF and Fantasy - the extrapolative against the anchronistic - is what makes Genre useful, I feel.
@@athoszubiaur2144 That's pretty much a part of my job!