I love that in season 2, Nick says he’s not ready. Lots of teens are not ready for sex. Even if they have sexual desires, as I did. It’s still fucking vulnerable to share your body with another human for the first time. Especially when you’re queer and are figuring out what sex even means for you.
Exactly! A lot of teens aren’t ready for sex and will look at Nick and learn the language of how to set boundaries in a kind way. So many teens were pressured into sex early and I’m sure so many wish they could have talked about it the way it’s talked about in the show.
Agreed. And if this has been a show about a heterosexual couple and the girl was the one who said she wasn’t ready, no one would take issue with it. It’s patriarchal conditioning that makes us think it’s crazy only when it’s a boy saying he’s not ready, and that makes a lot of boys feel like there’s something wrong with them if they feel that way.
@@edithputhy4948 There's lots of teenagers that don't have sex though, it's indeed the reality. I was one of them, so were some of my friends. We had desires and I'm pretty sure we all masturbated, but we didn't want to have sex yet. I didn't feel comfortable in my body at the time and was way too scared of being that intimate with someone, especially since I wanted it to be someone special whom I can trust and not some random person.
my personal opinion is that there has been such an OVERSATURATION of shows aimed at teen audiences that are so hypersexual & mature in content, that its refreshing to see a show about kids just being sweet & innocent & not ready for all of that. We've been given shows like pretty little liars, riverdale, euphoria, etc. that all feature 25 year old actors doing adult things for so long that we've forgotten that there is still a lot of naivety & wholesomeness that comes with being young & a teenager. Rather than the depressing, dark, & gritty vibes were constantly shown, this is such a breath of fresh air to see something so lighthearted & full of hope / joy! kids need to see positive, calm representations of coming-of-age stories or theyre going to constantly feel immature for not going at it like bunnies, drinking / doing drugs, and idk solving murders? lol Having a wholesome show like heartstopper can also make queer people less afraid of existing & show these identities in a normal light. Normalizing "unrealistic" scenarios, like in heartstopper, could lead to that kind of expression & experience actually being realistic in the future. If people only see the bullying, addiction, and tension in shows, thats all they'll ever expect.
I also feel this way about the constant thing of “Ofc they should be horny, they’re Teenage Boys!!!”, because so much of Nick’s story specifically is about how much people project onto him because of their expectations of teenage boys.
I AGREE WITH ALL OF THIS!! As a 16 year old girl when you constantly see teenagers portrayed that way I almost makes you feel left out and like I’m failing to have what media deemed the “typical teenage experience “. To be honest I’ve never held hands romantically or gone on a date. So sometimes it’s hard to relate to the characters in some of those shows. I really enjoyed heartstopper because of how wholesome and for lack of better words “innocent” they were. To me it seemed much more attainable? Like I KNOW people my age and YOUNGER are having sex but I also know that none of them are ready tbh😂 like they just rush into things like that because their piers are doing it and it’s so normalized in “teenage” media. Oh also Charlie literally only turned 15 at the beginning of the show!!! LIKE THEY SHOULD NOT BE RUSHING TO HAVE SEX?????
Yeah! As an early teenage gay boy myself, in the environment and mindset I'm living in it's hard to even find a guy. Not to mention the fact that I do feel pressure to have sexual or romantic things going on... and honestly I think that for some of us, it's way more realistic what it's portrayed on heartstopper. I am LIVING for the representation :) love Alice
It's sad that people don't have this same no sex criticism for non LGBT teen shows/movies. High school musical had ZERO kissing, not to talk of sex and everybody loved it.
Yes. Disney shows are recognised as being for children, and people are fine with that. Heartstopper is also a kids show, so naturally it's going to tone down physical intimacy. 8 year old queer kids can watch this and see shows about themselves. I'm not quite sure why supposedly progressive people have an issue with a story about lgbt teens being made accessible to kids as well as adults.
@@louiskingsta6142it is absolutely toned down to allow a younger audience to access a show that represents them. That was intentional. There are young people out there that are starting to feel attraction to members of the same sex that aren’t anywhere near ready for sex.
@ezequielmondada6427 yes, I did have the first season in mind. The second season can perhaps grow up with the audience, albeit grow up faster than one would typically expect in a kids show. It's not uncommon for kids shows to have some elements of risky teen behaviour, while still trying to cater for kids who are not ready to deal with these directly. I watched the original degrassi series, and the Jr high series had similar things.
Honestly as a 16 year old like none of my inner circle has had sex. Yeah we talk about it sometimes and some people do have it but I definitely feel like heartstopper isn't any further from reality than all the hypersexual shows. The truth lies some where in between.
I’m in college and almost all of my friends had their first sexual experiences after they were 18. Some of them haven’t even been on a date yet. Everyone does things at their own pace
Yeah, realistically, like, 50% of teens have had sex by the time they're 18 and these kids are all 15/16. There is a large variety of ages that people have sex for the first time.
it AGGRAVATES me people want this show to be more sexual. I am a teenager (19), I am bi, and hate that every queer love story in western media i've come across just has to have a s*x scene and drugs. This show is finally just a comforting, cute, romantic love story. There are so many shows these people complaining can watch instead. Also, these people clearly don't know many teens, because I can safely say that most 15/16 year old teens aren't having s*x, even if they are dating, ikr shocker. Stop being a creep and let me have one queer show that is way more realistic to my life than any drug induced, partying, s*x scened show.
I completely agree with you. As a SA survivor, so many of those ppl were in fact not having sex but being SA'd and don't realize until later in life bc we are taught that we should just be grateful. I think the minority that are complaining have internalized the ideas that queer ppl are inherently perverse and political and have put that above their own humanity and healing. We are nuanced humans and being queer is part of our identity but there is so much more to us. We deserve so much more.
So does that mean at 19 you haven’t had a sexual encounter? I find that not typical. At what age do most young men have their first sexual experience? I think it is unrealistic to have a show about two star crossed loved at 17-18, who haven’t had sex. Doesn’t have to be explicit, but it shouldn’t be ignored.
I think a show can show sex (or let the characters have it) without it being exploitative or over sexualized. That’s nothing against heartstopper, just speaking in a general sense 😊
@@xviolist You seem to be under the impression that the average age is the cut off limit as well. Plenty of people have late sexual experiences and they are just as typical as the people who had their first experience at 15. The average age of first sexual experience is 17 btw (depending on where you live, it's 18 in the Netherlands), and that is the average, so there are plenty of people who are earlier or later. Also, these kids are 15. They are not even at the average age for a first sexual experience. Calm down.
I’m a gay man on the ace spectrum. I’m sex positive and want all my queer friends to feel sexually liberated, but it feels great to have a modern popular piece of media that doesn’t prioritize sex. This was a great analysis. Loved everything you mentioned!
THIS. sexual liberation includes the freedom to say no to sex. The bizarre critiques to how sex is handled in heartstopper is just that, bizarre to me.
id like to note that even the cast themselves have said that the show is like looking through life and the queer experience through rose tinted glasses. it's meant to be too perfect, too pure, too wholesome. that was the aim of the show - to create a safe, idealised version of what being queer means today.
i love that. even though the story does include some darker themes, i think they can balance the realism with a lighter tone. it’s so refreshing to see some queer stories that don’t end in someone dying, or them being ripped apart by their homophobic family or something lmao.
It is also so effed up that a story with self-harm, phyisical/sexual assault and severe bullying is thought of as "too perfect to be real" by queer standards. Maybe it is the standards that are wrong... Gay people will fawn over Legally Blonde but accuse Heartstopper for being "too sweet".
The thing that annoys me is that in the comics, it’s *explicit* that Nick and Charlie’s relationship becomes sexual-with references to “hand stuff” and condoms and having sex a lot-when they’re 17 and 16, respectively, which is *a statistically normal age.* Something I really appreciated in season two was the portrayal of alcohol (also mentioned by Verily), and how you get characters saying things like “There’s alcohol if you want it, and other stuff if you don’t”, and people drinking a safe-ish amount for the first time in a safe environment. In both cases, it doesn’t read to me as whitewashed or sanitised purity culture: it reads to me as a portrayal of teens having the space to come to alcohol and sex in their own time, on their own terms.
It only becomes sexual later in the books. The volumes (1,2 and 3) that S1 and S2 are based on don't portray a sexual relationship yet so maybe S3 will show more.
@@lovelight1149 Yes, for sure-my point was that "This show is sexphobic and puritanical because it's not showing sex at the ages of 14/15" is extreeeemely weird to me as an argument.
Same, l had my first drink at 15 years old after cheerleading practice. It definitely looked like this. We're crammed inside a small space, taking shots of the little but strong booze we could afford. Then, there is that one person who is brave enough to either dance, or kiss, or confess their longest held crush who will then proceed to vomit in tears.
FFS, Are we not allowed to have a show that is just a feel good story? I'm frankly fed up with EVERY show that features queer representation as something swimming in angst and agony and sex (also, very dramatic and most times traumatic in some ways) as if we cannot ever be happy. Can't we have a fantasy? Or hope for a better future? It's not even like Heartstopper lacks drama, it's just the drama is about feelings and mental health. If you want to watch Euphoria, go watch it. Maybe, This show it's just not your kind of show. That's ok, but don't police it.
Like there is still pretty harsh drama and angst, though some of it is not shown explicitly on screen (like the year long bullying or Charlie's self harm). But there is the very real abuse and sexual assault stuff in the first few episodes. It's just that the queer characters' identity and life are not summed up in the trauma, it is not taken to tragic lengths and generally the characters are surprisingly emotionally mature (which for me is a welcome change when most shows that feature relationships, the conflict always revolves around bad communication and emotional stuntedness). As a gay guy in East Europe there is not a whole lot of LGBTQ+ rep to go around and I got so exhausted and depressed and angry that any Western media that has gay people in it that I saw, the gay character just seemingly never catches a break (eg. Downton Abbey, Magicians). Finally there is a show where gay people are allowed to earn a happy ending at the end of their suffering. Queerness being normalized will and should mean more and more diverse stories will be made about us and not everyone will love all of it and that is good. That means we are finally not portrayed as a monolithic "THE gay character". Just like there are a million different stories about hetero people and not all hetero people like or relate to every single one of them, queer people should have a similar variety.
Your comment about how Nick and Charlie’s discussion about progressing physically ended being not what would likely happen, but how many of us WISHED it had happened, really hit me. I do wish I had waited just a little bit.
YES YES YES!!!! there's so many ways to be queer and it doesnt always have to involve sex. Heartstopper is closer to my reality than most of these other queer shows, honestly. I think we should have a variety of queer media, some people like it when it has sex, which is ok, but other people aren't always interested in having sex on every queer media. I myself really adore the dreamy and extremely romantic vibes of Heartstopper. But maybe that's because i am on the ace spectrum and sex is not that important to me. But I am also a lesbian and Heartstopper honestly makes me so happy. I wish I could have a relationship like Charlie and Nick's.
As someone who’s also on the ace spectrum I agree. I think a lot of shows marketed to queer audiences push this idea of sex so they can be like “Oh look see, gay sex. This wouldn’t usually be allowed but we think it is normal!” But to me it’s usually just pointless and usually doesn’t have much to do with the plot it’s just there for the gasps and “inclusion”. Just my opinion though
As someone that isn’t on the Ace spectrum I would also to agree. Shows with queer relationships don’t always have to have sex I too like the dreamy romantic version of Heartstopper.
As someone that has been into other guys for a while, but these days feeling like perhaps I am somewhere on the ace spectrum, I found Heartstopper's lack of sex to be pretty accurate toward my experiences with any boy I was lucky enough to end up in a relationship with during high school. However, over time I realized it was more of a one sided contentment with the lack of sex. My partners would often grow disinterested in the relationship when they realized I wasn't going to immediately put out. I always felt like maybe there was something wrong with me, and I did try to be receptive of their feelings in that regard, but I just wasn't ready to rush through every stage of the relationship. So while I understand that for many other queer kids, sex exploration and experimentation might be a huge deal for them at that time in their lives, I truly was content with just being around someone that I liked. It was refreshing for me to see relationships in Heartstopper where sex isn't the main focus, or even seemingly on the radar, for most of the seasons. I get that not everyone vibes with that, and it doesn't represent everyone's experiences, but I think having alternative experiences being shown is just as important. There is plenty of gay media where sex is a large focus, so I don't see the harm in having a show where it isn't the only thing on the characters' minds.
To me, it's very realistic that a 16-year-old boy who has just found out he's bi and is just starting to tell people is not ready to have sex. Charlie doesn't like himself and he has complex so it's exactly the same for him. Those who say it is unrealistic do not take these factors into account and think only of young men in general.
I don't drink, I don't rave, I don't party, I don't have sex as a teen. Most of them do, that's probably why I never had any real friends. Everyone thinks I'm boring and not relatable. Heartstopper is the perfect dream world where I would fit into people my age, not pressured by expectations.
you're definitely not alone! when i was that age i never did any of that stuff, and tbf still don't really in my twenties. and i don't feel like i'm missing out for it either, different personalities are just suited to different things. i would probably be quite miserable if i forced myself to do stuff like that all the time. but i reckon you'll find people like you eventually! they might not be in your school but uni/working can be a great time to find people like you, especially if you go to slightly bigger colleges/towns. they're out there, i promise!
Damn. I'm an older queer & specifically remember having the conversation with another boy in high school about how I just wasn't ready for more than kissing (and this was the 80s!). I'm shocked (well, not really) to hear anyone is complaining about the lack of sex in Heartstopper. I will say a lot of the negative remarks I have seen about the series always seem to include some indication that the critic either hasn't actually seen the show or wasn't paying very close attention.
Yeah. I think people that have never been on the asexuality spectrum, never had to learn that it's like a real thing bc the media never portrays it. Disappointing but I'm so grateful for heartstopper
Love this! I am a middle Millennial so my teen years were early 2000s. I learned from teen magazines from age 12 onward a lot of stuff before I had opportunity to experience it myself, like YEAH I appreciated the tips on how to be a good kisser, but also learned a lot about dangerous drugs, how to deal with conflict with friends, and like, how important it is to do things only when you are ready and not let anyone pressure you when it comes to sex! I think today’s Gen Z teens also receive this message, because i’ve read that they are statistically less sexually active than previous generations. I have also always heard it said by people like Dan Savage that most gays have to learn how to communicate about sex early and often, because there’s no single presumed act and each person doesn’t have a presumed role in it, compared to heterosexual intercourse (and yikes, wouldn’t those of us engaging in that be so much better off without that always being the presumed meaning of the word “sex”). So stumbling through that communication and figuring it out naturally is considered part of the queer experience, and here it is already starting to be depicted in the show!
The person that said “They’ve never had an impure thought, drank a sip of alcohol, or uttered a swear word” is crazy. Obviously they didn’t watch the show because ALL THOSE THINGS happened in the show. Also Charlie and Nick spend the first 5 minutes of the show making out in a montage showing them over the course of a few weeks, like “No lust?” Excuse me are we watching the same show??? I’m mad 😂😂😂😂
To be fair the critiquing the swearing is actually valid .... Nick and Charlie both swear a lot in the comics. They have SIGNIFICANTLY sanitize the language in the show even in season 2 where they did actually add some more slight swearing content back into the show but it's still absolutely not as explicit as it is in the comics.... Nick and Charlie throw shits and fucks around ALL the time in the comics. And as for the substance use the substance use that happens in season 2 is 1 of the 2 instances alcohol is used in the comics and Alice's novels about Nick and Charlie..... So yeah I can understand why people might have their critiques about that as well... That infrequent use of alcohol does not reflect my own teenage years. And I'm still an introvert to did NOT go to parties would just drink with close friends in small gatherings but it's still absolutely happened more than it happens in the comics...But yeah I definitely agree that Alice has written teenage lust decently... Not explicitly but it absolutely is still there in both the TV show and the comics. Especially, for someone who doesn't experience it as Alice is aromantic and asexual. They did a decent job. I usually prefer the content I consume to be more sexually explicit but I understand that Alice isn't comfortable writing that kind of content... I do really like their writing even if it isn't what I would normally consume.
@@AnxietyRat I just wanted to add a couple things. I know that I didn't have a particularly normal high school experience, especially when compared to media. I never had any alcohol, in fact, although I went to parties and hung out with friends, none of those parties or hang outs included any alcohol consumption. I also didn't swear a lot in high school (although I had friends that did, so I think that's a valid criticism). Honestly, I think it's fine that they wanted this show rated TV14 and not TVMA just because of language. You can get away with a lot more in a comic than you can in a TV show, and honestly, that's on rating's faults, not on the TV writers and producers' faults. I really wanted to say that just because Alice is Aroace does not mean that she can't experience lust. Being aroace only means she experiences little to no sexual and romantic ATTRACTION. That isn't the same as experiencing little to no libido or little to no desire to have a romantic or sexual relationship. These are all different things. Aroace is an umbrella term that is used to describe a whole lot of people in the same way that queer is an umbrella term that can describe anyone from a trans person to a bisexual and everything else. To say it's as cut and dry as "Alice is Aroace and cannot experience lust" would be incorrect because we don't know where on the aroace spectrum she is, and it's a bit rude to speculate. I hope that doesn't come across as rude or anything like that, I just wanted to take the moment to educate a bit, so hopefully that is helpful, haha. I hope you have a wonderful day! ^-^
They do sware and drank alcohol. In Alice's book Solitaire when Charlie relapses with self harm Tori explains how Charlie's eyes were blood shot I think because of the alcohol and in numerous times of her different books it has sware words ❤
They do sware and drank alcohol. In Alice's book Solitaire when Charlie relapses with self harm Tori explains how Charlie's eyes were blood shot I think because of the alcohol and in numerous times of her different books it has sware words❤
this backlash against female authors reminds me of what happend to the author of love, simon. She pretty much had to out herself to stop getting hate. And then the same thing happend to Kit.😢
Alice Oseman is non-binary, they use they/she pronouns. It sucks that people get that backlash. What happened to Kit was so messed up, and I hope he is taking care of himself.
This is my gripe with no sex criticism. Queerness has to portray intercourse yet somehow ignores the queerness of asexual people. Its not like the boys are sexless either. At season 2 of Heartstopper, they're like 6 months into a relationship. By the time Nick leaves for uni, their bedroom wrestling under a pillow fort will become a frequent occurrence.
They’re not even 6 months in in s2, more like 3-4 months by the end of the season. And Charlie is about 3 months past his 15th birthday. Because the actors have visibly gotten older between seasons and the show takes place over such a short period of time, I think a lot of viewers forget or don’t realize just how young they are and how fresh the relationship is.
that's what I was thinking. after reading the Nick and Charlie novella, I realized that in heartstopper, the boys are just at the beginning stages of their relationship, and aren't ready to do more mature things yet. like the creator of this vid pointed out, Charlie has body image issues that would affect how intimate he gets with any partner, and nick just realized he's bisexual like, 2 months ago atp of the story. so of course they're not gonna have sex like, immediately. some ppl just wanna wait till they're ready, and that's fine. the implication that heartstopper 'isn't queer enough' cuz it has no portrayals of sex feels a bit acephobic to me. Isaac isn't interested in sexual or romantic relationships. he's aroace. does that mean he's not queer? No, it doesn't. queerness isn't just intercourse, but the fact that that's the main form of queer rep ppl see in the media to the point that its expected, is quite disappointing, and somewhat concerning, to say the least. also ppl always seem to either seem to forget or not know that the show was made by an aroace person??? like, the shows not meant to be an accurate portrayal of the queer teenage experience. and its never gonna be, even if that's what they were going for, cuz everyone's experience is different. its supposed to be an idealized portrayal of queerness, whether or not ppl relate to that. during a time when anti-lgbtq+ propaganda is being spread by conservatives, moreso now than before, heartstopper is definitely needed by the queer community. its good for ppl to have something to escape to during such a dark time in the world. so if ppl want to watch shows with more sexual portrayals of queerness, they r free to do so, as there are many out there. they should just leave heartstopper out of that criticism.
@@lavender4658 Remember the scene in episode 6 of season 2 where Charlie is sitting on top of Nick? That scene was supposed to happen way later in the webtoon. It happened after Charlie went home from rehab and his 16th birthday. Charlie didn't want to go all the way and Nick sensed it. Charlie was feeling insecure about how his body changed because of the anorexia and the self harm. That is a lot to put on a recovering anorexic and if Nick wasn't careful, he would have relapsed. To quote Sahar during this story arc, "It's society that makes it a big deal. There's so much pressure to have sex at this age. People like Marcus (unimportant side character who lost his virginity and is telling everyone about it) makes us feel like everyone is doing it when most people probably aren't."
Wait…season two of Heartstopper was when they where like 2-3 months into the relationship, book 4 was like 4-8 months and book 5 was like a year right??
also as a gen z kid in the uk and was part of "the" queer friend group like the kids in the show and this is the 1st time i've seen a show that actually seen teens be portrayed like us and the kids in my school. cos yes while some people did have sex young, lots of people didn't until 6th form straight or queer. And yeah i find it weird that lots of adults are giving their opinion on what counts as "accurate" representation of queer kids
FWIW, I'm a 63-year old gay man, part of the "Boomers II" generation. I've seen a lot of LGBTQ+ representation over the years and its evolution---in film, TV, theater. Rarely has anything moved me as deeply as "Heartstopper". It's quite simply, beautiful. Folks who don't like it have quite a few other choices to make. Thanks for this very fine commentary.
Nick and Charlie’s not-ready-yet conversation is almost exactly the way that chat played out with my (straight) boyfriend when we were sweet, adorable 19 year olds. It’s lovely to see it.
Right. When I had my first partner (at age 20 lol) we literally ~slept 😴~ with each other quite a few times before ever having sex. And our convo to confirm that it we didn't want to go further was the same way 😂
@@gilly_axolotl For years I had to be very specific about what people meant by 'slept with' in truth games and such for just this reason! I think it took 5 years from first sharing a bed to actually having sex with someone.
I think teens get a bad rap. I have two teenagers and they are not perfect obviously but pretty close. They are fun, funny, kind, and helpful and so are their friends. And so were the teens I worked with as a social worker. Also, is it really so strange for young teen boys in their first relationship to not be ready to have sex after just two short months? That’s a really new relationship.
As a sexual gay man, I loved seasson two. And I think it's annoying that those people find completely unrealistic that two teenagers are choosing to wait until they are both ready to have sex. As you said, there are SO MANY shows with teenagers having sex in the first opportunity, which yes, is the reality for many many people, is actually unrealistic to think that every single teenager in the world has the same urge. Some people are mad because heartstopper doesn't fit their particular view of what being a teenager is, which is ridiculous. Having to remind people that each person grows up, blooms and feels comfortable with whatever they are doing in their own time is so frustrating. Everyone should know, and unfortunately, but specially queer people should know how damaging the pressure to have sex or to have a relationship you don't want to can be. It's great to have queer show and movies that show sexual and romantic interactions, but it obviously isn't all that is to say about "the queer experience". I think it's great that we have show that portrait sex and show that don't. I think it's great to have all kinds of different life experiences in movies and TV. Heartstopper is just one different point of view. It might not be for everyone, but rarely something is for everyone and manages to make everyone satisfied. And those people complaining about the lack of sex on heartstopper just completely ignored the relationship between the two teatchers and probably didn't read the comics. Not like they needed to to prove anything to anyone, but things have gotten steamy between Nick and Charlie recently Hahaha. They did it in their own terms and their own time. And in my opinion, that is an amazing message for the readers.
Thank you for this. Now, I’m a gay man, 66 and clearly a dinosaur, but aren’t straight kids in high school in a social setting that allows for pacing yourself? From liking someone to talking to them, then a “mini-date” like a cup of coffee, then working up the nerve for a real date like a movie, all the while learning the social skills they need. (That’s ideally, of course, and in practice it’s not always that easy.) Gay kids don’t generally have these opportunities. Even if they’re out, there aren’t usually enough other gay kids around to make that process possible. Sometimes gay bars can seem like the only option. Those are adult businesses where drinking and readiness for sex are assumed. A beginner doesn’t belong there, and in those places a beginner can quickly get in over his head so that real harm is done. But Heartstopper shows us two boys falling in love who ARE allowed to take things at their own pace, and I like that. If they agree that staying at this stage for a while is fine, that’s not a bad thing!
I would argue that it's actually quite realistic that teens want to wait a bit to have sex for the first time. The average age of sexual debut is usually around 17-18, depending where you live. In the US at 18 50% of teens have had their first sexual experience. That means the other 50% has not.
Those 2 15yo boys have been together for only like 2 months or something, and it's both of their first real relationship why are y'all calling it unrealistic they aren't having sex?? When I was that age (and that was about 7 years ago), most people would wait at least a couple of months or half a year, if not longer. It doesn't strike me as unrealistic at all. Especially since it's their first time.
thank u for this!! i hate the “it’s not realistic bc they’re not having sex” debate bc they’re like what? 14 in the show? i didn’t even have my first kiss until i was 19 and when i was their age i was also having my gay awakening and figuring stuff out and it was beyond scary, it’s an accurate portrayal to how things feel at that age especially to us who were well behaved children and feel like we “missed out”, which heartstopper shows they can still have fun while being “well behaved” and also,,, let’s just let gay people be wholesome!!!!! sex isn’t always in the picture
As someone who just graduated high school, a lot of my queer friends haven’t shown any interest in sexual relationships, even if they are interested in romantic ones. Quite a few of my ace friends, including me, are tired of the hypersexualization of teens in media. Even for those who aren’t ace, many of us are just trying to find genuine connections to other humans, especially after months of isolation due to the pandemic.Heartstopper means so much to us because it’s just a group of queer teens connecting with each other.
i am gen z and i loved heartstopper, so i tried to get my straight sister (who is also gen z) to watch it because she loved young royals (another mlm show), and she hated it lol. she told me she didn’t like it because it was “for kids”, so i don’t think the wholesomeness of the show is to make it more digestible for straight people. you’re right it is a queer show for queer people and it has helped me be more comfortable with myself even as an adult
Hm, interesting. I guess Young Royals has a bit ( a lot) more drama, but that one also didn´t have suuuper explicit stuff in it. So that shouldn´t really be a factor. But I guess some people just don´t like certain vibes, like Heartstopper´s very cute and wholesome feeling.
@@Beny763my two cents, I don't hate heartstopper, but I definitely think it's just too sugary sweet. I don't mind the lack.of intimate scenes though. I'm like your sister and I prefer YR because it's a lot more complex and reflects reality more, at least in my view.
Heartstopper is for kids, though. The comic author/show writer Alice Oseman said that the show was meant to be watchable for 11 and 12 year olds. This isn't true for all T-rated shows. I think that's what people are reacting to - the characters are 15-16 y/o teenagers but that's not the targeted demographic, and it shows.
@@virginiarogers9391 yeah, the point i was trying to make, though, was that she didn’t understand the show because she is straight. so when people say heartstopper is for straight girls … i’m not too sure about that. i think it is for queer youth but older queer people love it too ((:
Thanks for your comment! I see heartstopper as a show made for a younger audience, but the the fact that so many adults still loves is show how important and lovely it still is for ALL generations. I love young royals too - but just as you say I think that has a much straighter point of view, so I get why straight women like that one more.
I'm a millennial and I love Heartstopper. For some people this is a realistic representation of their teen years, and for some it's not. And btw, since when do all the queer shows we watch have to be one hundred percent realistic and relatable to our own lives? Has everyone who watched and loved Euphoria or Sex Education experienced exactly everything that's shown in those shows? No, probably not, but you can still appreciate them. I love how Heartstopper shows softer sides of queer life than the ones I usually see on TV, and I love how this show also fulfills a function of retroactive healing, as someone wrote below. Great video as always!
This is my biggest frustration! It's the realest representation for me lmao, and seeing all these people lash out at it just reminds me how different I felt in high school :/
exactly. it’s frustrating seeing people call this “unrealistic” when as a 16 year old girl, the majority of the teens i know have a similar experience as in heartstopper. it’s so annoying that any queer representation we get has to be either a tragedy or a hypersexualised romance. so many straight romances don’t include sexual themes, why can’t we also just get a cute fluffy gay romance?
"I'm a millennial and I love Heartstopper. For some people this is a realistic representation of their teen years, and for some it's not." -- for me it's because it was not. i couldn't have that as a teenager due to my catholic upbringing, and not as a young adult due to my catholic guilt. that's the reason why i loved the first season, made me nostalgic for something i never had, and that's why i've enjoyed the romance between the teachers.
I think this debate can end very quickly: why are they so interested in seeing 2 14-year-olds having sex? I have always believed that these types of scenes are unnecessary, on netflix there are countless series and movies where they put men of 25 years or more to play 15-year-olds, and putting explicit sex scenes to fill out the poor plot
I don't think this can end the debate, especially since you don't need to show anything explicitly to portray an intimate scene. You can also have it fade to black etc. Like in Sex education, you had all kinds of awkwardness during sex and I don't think any of it was supposed to be salacious (although I don't really remember all that well).
Did you read the comment? Nothing has to be "shown." Fade to black etc. There's a difference between showing teenagers having sex and having teenagers acknowledge sex@@magpie8621
They are 16 and 15. And for me I think it’s too young, but the criticism of some extends to anyone even saying someone is handsome and then you’ll be accused of sexualizing an actor that’s 18-19. Both things can be true… some fans can be gross about wanting younger teens to have sex and some fans can gatekeep too extremely where they basically accuse older fans of being pedophiles. Both extremes are harmful for different reasons. I think people need to be a bit more respectful of different viewpoints regarding the show, the characters and the actors who play them.
The reason I love Heartstopper so much is because it shows a realistic, healthy teen relationship. Lots of teens don’t want to have sex, lots of teens just want to be happy with their partner. Not everything needs to be dark, constantly angsty, and sultry like in other teen shows. I can say that Heartstopper reminds me a lot of my friend groups and my life more than any other show ever will, and it’s very homey. I’m sick of teen shows showing what parents THINK teens are doing and not what many if not most teens are actually doing (which could be more like a mix of both!!) if that makes sense😅❤
it made me uncomfortable seeing so many people complaining about charlie and nick not having sex, claiming that it's not realistic and implying that it makes their relationship somehow less real or genuine because of it. sometimes i really don't understand what people see in sex to be so important, it's so dumb. great video btw, really liked it!
I always assumed that the reason Heartstopper was mostly chaste, was because that might be what Alice Oseman knew growing up. She might have been raised in that kind of environment, with her family, and her friends and so she was reflecting on what she knew and remembered. Also because she is asexual, so perhaps sex doesn't hit the same way for her and so she wrote it differently. I'm just guessing on that one. When I was a teen, I was pretty vanilla, and so were my friends. It wasn't until we grew older and went to college that we became rougher, explored, and experimented. Some people just mature at different speeds. Sex isn't everything, humans are diverse and layer people. Gay media doesn't owe the viewer sex. Nor for that matter does teenage media.
Alice has talked about this on social media... And you're partly correct the reason Alice has stated why there isn't any explicit sexual activity in the comics or in her novels is because she's aroace and she doesn't feel comfortable writing that kind of content. But she is okay vaguely referencing that it is happening. And doing like fade 2 black s essentially. So yeah it pretty much has everything to do with Alice's sexuality and her comfort on writing that kind of content. There are asexual people who are okay with writing sexual content. I know of an asexual writer in my own personal life who is okay with writing sexual content... Not every asexual person is and Alice clearly isn't one of those people and that's okay and valid. But yeah, I don't think it has anything to do with what Alice grew up watching as a kid... Or at least they have never stated that that is the reason why... the only thing Alice has officially stated on social media is them being uncomfortable with creating that kind of content because of their sexuality.
@@AnxietyRat Yeah that makes sense. What I mean about childhood, I mean I know nothing of her background. But I remember growing up watching mostly Jane Austen-type romances and musicals. Where it was all pretty much fade to black. My family was pretty Christian and I was exposed to that part of life later in life. So that can be one part of the teenage experience. Not every teenager is revving to drink, drugs, party, and have sex. And it makes sense that doesn't don't work for her and make her feel uncomfortable, she doesn't need to put them in her stories. Sometimes no sex in a story has anything to do with purity and simply because someone has no sex drive. And hopefully, in time more people will understand that.
I believe this too! I think a lot of authors write or at least get inspired by their own experiences. When that experience matches the majority - sexual - no one questions that. But when that experience is a minority - asexual or demi - is criticized as unrealistic. When really it doesn't have to be more complicated then a person telling a story about a less common way to grow up
@@AnxietyRat Oooh I am going to stop you right there. It actually annoys Alice A LOT when people link her sexuality with the way she writes sex. Idk where you read that she said that was the reason, quite curious to know. People really need to stop linking aroace with some sort of automatic incomfort about sex. Alice writes YA ! That is why she is not gonna write graphic sexual stuff. But she's never shied away from writing about sex. The novella Nick and Charlie has a sex scene that for me is almost at the limit of how explicit it can be for a YA book. And the next volume of the comic is heavily focused on it. The reason it's not graphic is simply because this comic needs to be accessible by like 11 year olds.
@@n0emiette I swear I saw it on Instagram or Twitter or it might have been on the webtoons site in one of the descriptions bc ppl were hounding them about if the comic was going to get sexually explicit in the comments or maybe Tumblr but remember Alice saying that that was why they would NEVER go explicit with the sex scenes. They just did not want to make that kind of content because aroace...which is valid and I respect their choice to do that... But I swear to God I remember them saying this somewhere online. I remember it being in a post that also said like "hey guys you can enjoy the couple but please don't post super sexually explicit comments of things you want the characters to do because that's ALSO makes me uncomfortable." I don't remember exactly where it was said because it's been about two years since I saw it. Yeah, in Nick and charlie novella it mentions them having sex, yeah, but it's a very vague scene... Yeah I'd agree with you that it probably pushes the limits of what Young adult fiction will allow. Which potentially could be why it is so vague...or it could be that that is Alice's limit. I don't think Alice has ever explicitly clarified EXACTLY where on the sex repulsed scale they fall...but it clear it's somewhere on it. 🤷♀️ Also for the record I DON'T immediately link asexuality with sex repulsion... There are plenty of AroAce people who are not sex replused. I have a friend IRL who is slightly sex repulsed but not completely they are certain less so than some people I've interacted with online. But sex repulsed or not they are still valid in their asexuality. Nothing in my previous comment indicates I think otherwise.
Sometimes folks come across like they don't know what they want. I see a lot of unhappiness and frustration. I'm certain that had Heartstopper S2 a lot of sex/sexual activity or substance abuse, it would be called out for being stereotypical by some. On the other hand, since there's none of that [its wholesome and candid] its considered to be unrealistic. Katya Zamolodchikova said something on this matter recently. On a rather humorous video with Trixie Mattel, she says Heartstopper is retroactively healing a lot of us [queer milenials] of bad experiences from our teen days. Fetishism is also about living an alternative reality [through a story], one that offers something lacking in our own and I think that's something this show in particular feeds on positively. I believe there should be stories that make us relate to a reality we wish we experienced.
I appreciated Katya's comment too that gen z was not their generation, where there was so much pressure put on them to have sex, and so while it felt unrealistic to their teenage experience, that didn't mean it was to the experiences of kids today.
@@asterismos5451 I’m in my 30s and quite a few of my close friends didn’t have sex until university. There was pressure but it’s not like everyone was actually having sex back then.
I'm a Gen X Heartstopper fan and it actually reminds me of the family programming we had on TV while I was growing up in the 1980s and early 1990s, teaching life lessons about how to handle issues and conflicts that come up in relationships and friendships and how to deal with more serious issues like dating abuse, bullying, and mental health issues, but much, much more queer. And it definitely is much closer to my own growing up experience as a bi+ transmasc non-binary person who was also nerdy and very, very single, yet it also represents the possibilities of what could have been in an ideal world if it had been safe to be out at the time. It is aspirational and educational, and yes, it has adorable couples and relatable characters, while also showing us experiences we basically NEVER see on the screen, like the bi+ experience (which season 2 just massively expands upon after the surprisingly good bi+ rep of season 1), the aro-ace experience, and the ways in which Elle and Tao navigate their burgeoning romance, along with the look we get of Darcy's homophobic, emotionally abusive home life. Yes, it is sweet and cute and wholesome, but it is also exploring so many issues with a depth we pretty much never see anywhere else, and in a way that is educational for younger audiences, modeling healthy communication and showing different ways of dealing with issues in their personal lives. I love the wholesomeness of Heartstopper, not because it is more sanitized or aimed at a straight/cis audience, but because it is unapologetically q u e e r, very clearly made by and for q u e e r people, but in a way that is instructional for a more general audience as well. It shows us Sarah Nelson assuming her son's heterosexuality and then later apologizing for saying or doing anything that made him feel like he couldn't come out to her. It shows us the importance to LGBTQ+ youth of having a safe haven with out and supportive teachers at school. It shows us different ways of standing up to homophobic bullies. And it shows us pure q u e e r joy. It is a beautiful show that I will never stop re-watching or singing the praises of. Also, no amount of sanitizing would make this acceptable to the folks who are all-in on the "groomer" narrative. This was not made for them. It was, very clearly and very queerly, made for us.
I'm nonbinary, Gen X, aroace, and grew up on Degrassi Junior High lol when I was in high school, I didn't have sex, didn't even come close to having sex! I didn't even have my first kiss until 18, didn't have sex until I was in my 20's. Other people in the comments can relate to my experience, and the experiences of the characters in Heartstopper. And I think it's totally okay to not have over-sexualized children in a TV show, and overly-sexualized 15 year olds is gross to me because they are literal children. But if that's what people want, then there are plenty of shows to check out!
@@SkyeID Absolutely. I didn't even have my first kiss until I was 18. It is perfectly normal for 15 and 16 year old kids to NOT be having sex, drinking, smoking, or doing drugs, and I think it is very appropriate to show teenagers just navigating life without all of that in the storyline. Especially LGBTQIA+ youth, who have quite enough issues to deal with at that age. It doesn't need to be Euphoria or Heartbreak High to be good teen representation.
As someone who was in a friend group that didn't drink or have sex in high school, Heartstopper felt soooo real and validating. Not everyone has sex in high school, and people aren't social outcasts if they don't. Not everyone drinks in high school. It's so refreshing to see a show that portrays a different side of high school that many people experience but is always shown as like severely uncool or being a "loser" if you didn't experience that. I know it's not on par with everyone's high school experience, but to me Heartstopper feels so real.
EXCELLENT! I am with you 100 percent. As an "older queer person" who didn't begin to explore sexual physicality until the age of 19 but who grew up in the US in the 80's where it was all about creating a gay subculture, I find how Heartstopper portrays its relationships extremely refreshing and for me, some of the most important queer representation ever made. By sidestepping the obsession with gay sex the show manages to focus more on the substance of the relationships between the characters and concentrate on a more human and emotional aspect of the story unfolding. It's liberating in the sense that it doesn't bow to the sterotype that all people, especially queer ones, are defined by their sex lives. For me it signals an important evolution in validating queer relationships as not being solely defined by who one is getting with sexually. I think there are many people like myself who have lacked this kind of representation for a long time. I remember being excited by some of the first unabashedly queer shows that came out like Queer as Folk and the like, but not being able fully connect because none of the characters even remotely seemed interested in the kinds of things I was or lived anywhere near a life like mine. I had struggled through the gay subculture looking for something more only to be told I was trying to be heteronormative and not embracing my gayness. I was someone who needed more than just physical attraction and sexual gratification in my life and that was tired of being told there was something wrong with me if I didn't adhere to the sterotypical bed hopping queer. I kept wondering how I had moved from a straight society telling me how I should live and love to a queer one attempting to do the same thing. For this reason I never really felt like I had a community. Now here comes Heartstopper that puts the focus on something else, on the love and life developments of queer characters not defined solely by a rabid need to jump into bed with everything that moves. Respect to those that want that kind of life but they are not the barometer for the whole of queer society. Lastly, I believe that the rise of shows like Heartstopper enables us to see, as queer people that we have OPTIONS and we can decide what makes us happy and that we are not alone. I am now in a 13 year relationship with someone 20 years my junior. I dated a man in his 40's when I was 19. I work in the performing arts so have cross generational friendships all the time so get to see a lot of different perspectives and opinions. No show is "realistic" in fact. Everything on stage or screen is a artistic depiction and we finally have one that puts an emphasis on something more than who we are having sex with and I am so here for it and believe it is so important as representation that each person has choices and the spectrum of those choices is broad and not restricted solely to being defined by our libido. I could go on for a long time about this but I'll stop it here as this has gotten really long- sorry!
I get what you're saying about not looking for hook ups, but you make people who do want that sound very bad. We can let people do what they like without putting them down if you don't want to do that too.
I mentioned that in my post " Respect to those who want that kind of life...." My post is entirely about a group of people, like myself that haven't been considered much. If you see my post as putting someone else down I feel that is more in your reading and interpretation of what I wrote. My post is about affirming some views that haven't gotten much attention in the past and not about breaking down anyone in a group that has been considered the norm. @@AnnekeOosterink
And if I may add: For me the 'lack of sex' played a huge role in making me relate to the show. At 15 sex wasn't really on my mind, and even though I know it was for other people, even in my proximity, it wasn't really a big topic within my friend groups. It's really just now (at 21) that it's starting to come up in conversations for real. Fair, I am likely somewhere on the aroace spectrum, but most of my friends are not, and yet this giggly show is far more relatable than any other teen drama I've encountered. Perhaps glorified, yes, but relatably so. I once heard someone saying something about teen shows really being written for grownups. That since it is usually grown ups writing them, the 'teens' are met with grownup problems and desires. Of course a lot of 15 year olds think about sex, but sometimes I wonder if we, as we grow up, forget all the other things that mattered, that were more present and important at 15. Before we were met with sexualisation wherever we turned. Because at 15 you are very much still a child. Thank you for a very well executed video :)
heartstopper is a refreshing change of pace in an industry that constantly hypersexualises teenagers and hires adults to play them to make it seem okay. the way that Alice Oseman writes the sexual aspect of Nick and Charlie's relationship is the most healthy and realistic portrayal of teenage intimacy I have ever seen. I'm 16 years old and I'm really glad that we finally get this sort of representation.
I am a Gen X, bisexual, mother of 2 afab kids, with Master’s degrees in History & Gender Studies. I have also written a children's book about LGBTQ history. I watched both seasons of Hearstopper with my kids - 20 year old bisexual and 14 year old aro/ace - and as a parent, I felt comfortable doing that. The first three volumes of the graphic novels are rated as appropriate for age 11 and up - and I feel that a lot of the intention with the show is that it gives parents and kids an opening to talk about queerness and relationships. What a lot of adults are calling "sanitized" about the show is actually "age appropriate." So much of queer representation in media relies on negative tropes and stereotypes, like "bury your gays" or portraying queer existence as tragic and miserable. Heartstopper is a refreshing exception, especially now, when the political climate here in the US is so anti-LGBTQ. Is Hearstopper a bit of an idealistic, queer fairytale? Sure, but there's nothing wrong with that. Let younger queer kids see themselves represented in a positive way. Let straight kids see queer representation being normalized in media. Both professionally and as a parent, I am 100% here for it.
Maybe adults have grown up and forgotten but when you’re a teenager there is HUGE pressure to be sexually active. Losing your virginity is such a big deal and it puts a lot of pressure on kids because they feel like they will be left behind or uncool if they don’t have sex. That can also lead to people rushing into having sex with the first person who will agree, even when they’re not ready. I think it’s really refreshing to see kids who take it slow and want to feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable with their partners rather than rushing. Also making out on top of each other, love bites and cuddling, that shit is fun and super cute. I don’t see why it’s a big deal that the deed hasn’t been done yet. Charlie is only 15 and a victim of SA. Let them take their time.
I think that if the idea of “impurity” and “purity” were taken out completely and kids were just allowed to be kids and weren’t exposed to what they’re “supposed” to be then it would be seen as normal. Even in the articles and videos they’re calling the people in the show kids or teens. So shouldn’t they just act like that? Not all teens think about sex and if you do view them more as kids then they definitely shouldn’t be focusing on that aspect. Also they like just got into a real relationship and they’re first out gay relationship. Maybe they just want to take it slow because they’re virgins and scared. Which is perfectly normal for relationships around that age range I think
I agree, let them be kids. The main "unrealistic" portion of the show is how emotionally mature they are for their age, but I see it as a guide book ... and I have met really emotionally mature teens in real life, so it isn't unheard of. The friend group on HS reminds me of my friends from university. At that age, I found my fellow nerds and we were silly and supportive of each other. They were some of my closest friends. Ppl who think that consent is the same as "purity propaganda" ... I think they really need help. SA is so common and we should be proud of younger generations for rejecting r*pe culture. That doesn't mean that they are "puritanical". Sheesh! What a weird thought!!
Exactly! Hopefully if more media like this is made, it can normalize something that actually is very normal, wanting to wait and being allowed to wait.
As a teenager who is not straight and is on the asexual and aromantic spectrum, I really appreciated how the show didn’t hyper sexualize anything. It was the first love story i was ever able to actually relate to and made me feel so validated for the first time in my life. I feel like Alice Oseman being an aro/ace person too changed the way i perceived the show entirely. I never understood people just going “you’re hot, let’s hook up,” which is what happens in a lot of teenage media these days. Watching the progression of their friendship filled me with so much joy and seemed a lot more like what a romantic relationship would like in my life if i were ever able to experience one. Not only that, but Isaac’s storyline this season made me feel so seen in a way that i never had before.
Great points! I laughed when you brought up the Tara and Darcy scene because that was exactly my thought. I really liked your point about the pressure, because I think that’s exactly it. (Vague comic spoilers) Sex *does* become a topic in Heartstopper, the story is just not sex-obsessed and introduces the topic more slowly than many other teen dramas. What’s interesting about it though is that the storyline does become a big deal (in the comics) and approaches it a lot more honestly than most of the show I watched growing up, with awkwardness and actual conversations about it (not just teenagers having unrealistically sexy, magical first times). Which makes me think about your point of it being from an aroace perspective - it’s not about stripping away desire and erasing those experiences, but just approaching it differently than we’re used to seeing in Hollywood. Taking that pressure off. (Also, additional note to the critics - Charlie is 15. He’s 16 when they start having sex. That’s not puritanical, that’s just “I don’t want to write about a kid under the age of consent bonking.”)
You make some great points. As an even older queer (Gen X - gasp!) I can say that many of my peers LOVE Heartstopper because we are have had years of hypersexual media - great and super fun, but Heartstopper is such a departure from so much that has come before it. Imagine having this as an example as a teen of how queer can be vs the self-loathing closeted person who ends up unalived at the end of the movie. And that's the few times we saw queer people on screen at all. I'll take this thanks. This show is not a documentary - it's fiction. It's no more representative of real teen life Euphoria or Riverdale. And it's important to have media reflect a range of experiences. To say the show is too sexless is to presume a standard sexual trajectory for everyone which is not the case. This will speak to queer youth who feel pressure to be sexually active and don't want to be (yes they exist). As their relationship progresses, I think it will be interesting to see how the show handles discussions about sex, but I don't understand why some are in such a rush to see it. Plenty of other places to go if that's what you want to see.
YES!! One of the reasons I love the show so much is because I see me and my friend group in it!! This idea that all older teens are all the same is really disheartening to me; I never see myself represented in other media that's aimed at teenagers, so heartstopper is so refreshing to me. It really annoys me that people treat all teenagers the same when me and many others see ourselves in the hearstopper cast. Having one popular "clean" LGBTQ+ TV show isn't going to sanitise all queer shows - especially considering that people seem to be so eager to sexualise it regardless. Plus, there IS sex in heartstopper! In the webcomic, it's been one of the major themes in the recent story (which I'm fairly sure is far ahead of the the show but I haven't finished s2 yet so forgive me if I'm mistaken) so it's likely to come up if there are further instalments in the show. Alice has often talked about sex in her books in a healthy way, so I'm sick of people pretending that she treats it like a taboo subject. Her discussion of sex is open and healthy and it's, quite frankly, one of the best I've seen.
Agreed. And it's not even like heartstopper is saying "DON'T HAVE SEX IT IS BAD FOR YOU". They clearly just said "we want to do it, but in our own time and in our own termes" which I think is an awesome message.
In addition to how young they are, and in addition to how new Nick is to discovering his sexuality, they’ve only been dating for 3 months when Nick says he’s not ready for anything more than kissing. It’s ok to be horny and also to recognize that even though your body is telling you it’s ready, your brain is telling you it’s not ready. Not everyone has an intense emotional response to physical intimacy, but Nick and Charlie absolutely do, and they deserve to be allowed to go at their own pace. To imply that teenagers who are not having sex is because they are “well-behaved” and written to conform to a societal expectation of purity is to deny the idea that teenagers can be in touch with their own emotions and their own bodies and make these decisions for themselves without societal expectation steamrolling over their autonomy. Converse to the societal expectation to abstain from sex is the societal expectation that all teenagers are slaves to their hormones and can’t help but act on them. I applaud any show that allows characters of any age to self-reflect about what they’re feeling and when they’re actually ready and COMMUNICATE about it! Why is that unrealistic representation? If we acknowledge that gender identity lies on a spectrum and sexual orientation lies on a spectrum, why can’t we acknowledge that sexual readiness also lies on a spectrum? By the way, I may be a woman, but the men I have dated lost their virginity (hand stuff, to keep it consistent with HS), at 18, 19, and 23. The boy I dated at 17 actually asked me to slow down, and we never went below the waist because HE wasn’t ready. After time passed, I realized I hadn’t been truly ready, either, and I am grateful he spoke up. It makes me crazy that people can’t imagine boys being able to or being desirous to postpone sexual intimacy until they feel emotionally ready, because in every group of people, there are a diversity of experiences, and it is realistic to represent people at any point on the spectrum.
As someone who both relates and is pretty similar to some of the cast it’s just really nice to see such a healthy and kind relationship, but it’s really disturbing how much people comparatively value sex over and how they want them to do it
I'm so sick of this whole "they should have fucked" mob. My boyfriend and I are almost the same age as the characters (I'm slightly older then Charlie), and we love it so much. We both have issues when it comes to intimacy duo to past trauma, almost every time we get queer characters it's sooo raunchy. With Heartstopper I felt for the first time like I could relate to a character that was supposed to represent my identity.
As a 17-year-old boy who is bisexual and not out publicly, I love heartstopper for being so “clean” I know that me and a lot of teen boys my age have lust and feel the urge to have sex but I personally don’t think sex is super important in relationships especially when first it’s starting out, I hate watching some queer shows like young royals not because I dislike it, because of all the partying, sex and drugs, I know some teens do all of those things but most of it I’m not interested in and seeing it makes me so uncomfortable to watch it and that’s why I love heartstopper, yes sex is something teens think about and it’s important for relationships to some extent but I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone just to start having sex in the first two weeks or less, I want someone who's fun to be around, someone I can talk to, someone who is just like a best friend but different, but better, I don't want some hook up partner who I only see in bed, I want to live my day to day life with them and that's what nick and Charlie have, their communicating and experiencing life together, the good parts and the bad and are being there for each other, I see myself a lot in nick and Charlie, not being out and struggling with my sexuality and the society pressures and with my own trauma from being abused and bullied so seeing them both go through the same thing as me together and getting through it makes me feel like I could also get through it and I guess if that makes me or the show “clean” for not wanting to focus on sex and drugs then fine say what you want but it’s not that we are saying it’s bad and it shouldn’t be in the media, we just don’t feel it’s as important as everyone makes it seem and not everyone wants to hook up after the first date. I don’t believe in saving myself until I’m married but I would prefer to wait around a year before having sex with my partner because our bond and relationship are more important to me and if I really wanted to just hook up with someone instead of having a long term relationship there are hundreds of apps to do that but that’s simply not what I want and I don’t understand why people don’t understand that sex isn’t everything to teenagers or to adults in general, it's just a small part of that kind of relationships. (Sorry if this is hard to read I suck at spelling and at grammar:/ )
Well I was in a relationship and didn't indulge until I was 22... So it's refreshing seeing young people just being young people without being hypersexualised like we're all doing it.
As an ace person, I totally understand Alice Oseman's storytelling style. The show is just the result of the perspective and experience of an aro-ace person. We first had the male gaze, we're starting to enjoy the female gaze and, for the first time, the aro-ace gaze has been represented in a mainstream show Also, on a personal note, this is the first time in my whole life that I've been able to recognize my own experiences on the screen, and to feel seen and welcomed by a show. People saying that the show is immature and childish purely based on sex-less content makes me super mad: that's like saying aro-ace identities, experiencies and lifes are immature and childish and, therefore, not valid and unwanted
I love the fact that this series is not focusing on sex. For me the feelings and situations the characters experience are realistic. They are teenagers discovering love. Looking at each other, kissing and holding hands is already very intense when you are 15. I’m more than 40 yo but I reconnected to the teenager I was through this series and it moved me. I also like other series that are sexier like Elite but Heartstopper moved me in a way that very few other tv shows ever did because it is pure, subtle and delicate. In a world saturated with sexuality I found it refreshing and beautiful.
As a teenager I can say that not everyone my age is ready for sex the minute they enter high school. Me and my friends like to talk about the things we read in our books, (for example my friend got the book Icebreaker) and we like to laugh and giggle about it because we can’t think of ourselves doing that kind of stuff right now. In the future we will, but now is not the time. Same for the characters in Heartstopper. Nick explicitly tells Charlie that he’s not ready, but one day he will be. To me that is such a wonderful display of a conversation that kids should be having.
“The majority is not like this, but the majority is constantly being portrayed” this resonated so hard. I can tell you my group of nerdy teen friends were absolutely this well-behaved. The odd drunken party, snogging, and one or two couples having sex - but after a long time of established relationship, not 2 months in to discovering your sexuality. Teasing went as far as “omg he fancies you!”. The most unrealistic part to me is how well they communicate - but wow how amazing to have this art (ART, not life) be a good portrayal of what that looks like. It’s also true that gen Z (in UK at least) is having less sex and drinking less alcohol than previous generations so what may be authentic for them is not authentic for my elder millennial peers.
I think people often make the mistake of conflating "sexual liberation" with the idea that people are supposed to have "more sex" when the whole point of sexual liberation is that people are allowed to choose wether or not to have sex, and if they want to, they should be able to choose how much, and with whom. For some people (ie ace, aro folk) the pressure to have sex can be just as taxing as the pressure not to, or to do it in very specific, heteronormative ways. The whole point of sexual liberation is that we GET TO DECIDE
I am millennial and absolutely looove Heartstopper! With so much crazy sex and peer pressure being on tv supposed to represent teens, I find the show very well rounded, healthy, and wholesome representation of general teenage lives. Because it is written by an Ace/Aro author, the storylines are able to develop without sexual pressure. Elle and Tao are so cute, my favorite!
I like how they portray Elle’s trans experience. Is it realistic? No. But it does model how it should/could be. I especially love Tao’s mom’s reactions. If it’s propaganda it’s not punching down.
Thank you! You eloquently conveyed all my sentiments. To be honest, I really don’t understand why this argument to turn TV series, movies, books, etc. into one dimension of queer representation. I am an older queer, and I don’t understand this generational inter-fighting. When I came out, I devoured every queer movie, short films or anything that had a queer character or representation. For the most part I felt depressed and lacking hope. The storylines messaged to me that I would likely get AIDS, bullied, killed, I had to look like a model, I would end my life, sex must be casual and a central part of my queerness. Our traumas were always on exhibit, and I internalized that message. As any human, we (queer people) are complex, multidimensional with good and bad qualities. We have queer people still being bashed and killed around the world and people are complaining about “Heartstopper” being too puritanical? (Trigger warning) I am a survivor. I had no idea; I could have said NO or tell someone what our neighbor was doing to me in my very early teens. I blamed myself and my self-esteem was non-existent. Which unfortunately attracted a few Bens in my life. It took awhile to heal and to think I was worth something.
When I watch “Heartstopper”, I think of that boy. If he was watching that show, it would have given him enough tools to speak up. To understand consent, identify self-harm and toxic, abusive relationships. It would have showed him that he deserved to be treated with respect and what a supportive boyfriend /partner looks like. I think there is space where we can watch “Euphoria” and “Heartstopper” and learn. Sorry for the very long comment and THANK YOU. I needed this!
Thank you so much for your comment! 💕 this is what representation is about, healing for the ones who need it and inspiration for the ones who can act differently!
This is your second video I have watched but you showed me a new whole world. Thank you. As a straight gen x woman I knew nothing about Heartstopper being problematic for some people, about MM culture, about gay vs lesbian film/series making differences, .... I have learnt so much. BTW, I found Heartstopper by accident and for me it was just another love story, cute, unproblematic, but I wish I had been so well spoken and able to set boundaries as well as they are at their age. And I am not talking about puritan culture but about personal one.
Thank YOU! this comment made me very glad, I'm so happy you enjoy what I do. And 100% agree, vocalizing your boundaries and needs and not rushing in to something you're not sure of was so beautiful to see and I hope that can be an inspiration for a young generation.
As a gay woman on the ace spectrum, I didn’t have my first kiss until I was almost 21. I love seeing people in relationships not have such a heavy emphasis on sex but showing intimacy in other forms
Yes!!! This!!! Not everything has to be realistic to be good. Is High School Music realistic?? Of course not!!! Not in the relationship sense (oh my god teenagers who kiss maybe once in three movies 😳), not in the social life sense, not in the theatre world. Its supposed to be unrealistic. And because its part of the straight world that already has so many more varieties of representation it's still super popular.
its so weird to me that people think its unrealistic. this was probably the first time i watched a show that was more similar to my high school experience. I knew almost no one who was having sex when I was in HS and I get so confused when I watch High school shows where everyone is sneaking out, doing drugs, and having a lot of sex. None of these things had any significant influence in my 4 years of HS. My experience was so much more about grades, politics, and GRADES. And a lot of couples I knew werent having sex yet. Sure there were plenty rowdy people who were definitely doing all these things. But out of my class of 700...there were a LOT of us who really were that innocent. Especially at 14-16. IDK why thats hard for people to believe.
I think another thing that maybe not most, but many Gen Z people are realizing is that "hookup culture" for lack of a better term just isn't satisfying for them. Do we think it's immoral and that anyone who has hookups is evil or some shit? No, absolutely not. But trying for ourselves what we've seen as the "queer experience" from both popular media and from people older than us, it's often just not that great. It's commonplace to see older gay men complaining about Grindr hookups often being mediocre and unsatisfying. It's far from impossible to have good casual sex, but you have to sift through a lot of "meh" to get there, and is that really worth it? What might seem like a reversal of sexual liberation might not be an actual reversal - just a realization that while we're glad we *can* engage in casual sexual relationships, that doesn't mean that it's right for everyone nor that we should feel pressured to do it since everyone else is. Couple that with an epidemic of loneliness in young people, and it makes sense that people would have a renewed interest in long-term, serious relationships over short-term, more casual ones. And yeah, while plenty of teens have sex, plenty don't either, or at least not super frequently. I didn't until I was nearly 19, which is definitely above average even for my generation, but an average is just that - an average, meaning a lot of people fall both below and above it. I think another important thing is patriarchal assumptions about how teenage boys "naturally" act. If this were a show with a straight couple, and the girl said she wasn't ready to have sex in the same situation Charlie did - I don't think there would be nearly as much backlash. It should be just as normalized for men to say no, that they're not ready yet, etc. when it comes to sex as it's been becoming for women. Despite what patriarchy might have conditioned people to think (even if just subconsciously), men and teenage boys are not sex-crazed beasts that simply can't control themselves because of their hormones. In fact, that notion is really harmful because on some level it removes people's conception of men having responsibility over their actions when it comes to sex. You can experience sexual desire and still say no if it's not right at a given moment. And given Charlie not only has body image issues but was also sexually assaulted last season, and that Nick just figured out his sexuality two months prior, it makes total sense that they wouldn't be ready to have sex despite wanting to. Was that conversation a little too "squeaky clean" to be realistic? Yes, but that more than anything helped the show keep its age rating. Regardless, though, people glossing over Charlie being a recent victim of assault in this discourse is honestly both mindboggling and also pretty concerning - what message does that discourse send to teenage boys and even men in similar situations about them not yet wanting to have sex?
thank you for this. There are teen who are not ready for sex, even teen boys, having such a kind representation of communication and consent is a way of taking that pressure off of them. to see a character you resonate with name their apprehension might help many actual teens name that for themselves. this is a show a parent could watch with their queer kid, even younger ones. those don't exist. what a gift to those families and kids. We are only 3 months into Nick and Charlies relationship, things with change and develop, and I'm so excited to watch that happen!
Honestly even if the show is NOT realistic, it's modelling the right kinds of insights and communication and healthy coping and it's frankly educational. Sure, most teens won't be able to have that mature of a sex talk and consent like Nick and Charlie did. But this show is modelling that communication and how to do it. That representation is soo soo important. Because of this, more and more teens would LEARN how to have these communications and have these insights.
I'm a queer 40-year-old parent, and want to be able to share TV and movies with my kids that represent queer people as whole people, in ways that are appropriate for them. My daughter is 9, and I am thrilled to have Heartstopper - we will absolutely be watching it together in a couple of years, just like my Mom and I watched Dawson's Creek together when I was a teenager (and that was also pretty chaste in the first couple of seasons!). Sharing stories is such an important way for parents and adolescents to communicate about difficult subjects, and I'm beyond grateful to have this show to share with my kids.
This is a great example of damned if they do, damned if they don’t. People love to criticize and judge the sexualisation of teens or sex and lust in teen shows, but they’ll be just as quick to judge the absence of it. How does that make sense?
When I was a teenager I got into my first relationship when I was 15 about to be 16, and I don’t think I had sex with my partner at the time until we were both almost 17. I found the representation in heartstopper to be very realistic to my situation. Also Charlie was 14 when the show started. We saw his 15th birthday where they went bowling. I know some kids are sexually active that young, some of my friends were, but the majority I know weren’t having sex. Also about the show being cringey, I was very cringey when I was 15/16 in my first relationship, and I bet a lot of 15/16 year olds in relationships right now are cringey too. Let the kids be cringe
I personally don’t dislike the lack of sexual content in Heartstopper, but I also don’t like the people who treat Heartstopper like it’s the best queer media *just because* it doesn’t have sexual content in it. I consider a lack of sex in any media to be a neutral thing. Sex, in and of itself, doesn’t inherently make media better or worse, it’s just up to personal preference whether someone enjoys consuming media with or without it. People who say that Heartstopper is unrealistic because of it’s lack of sexual content annoy me because, well, they’re teenagers?? They’re literally 15 and 16, and even though Nick and Charlie are (very likely) sexually attracted to one another, doesn’t mean they need or want to act on that. There’s a difference between subconscious thoughts and conscious wants and desires. But then, the people who say that Heartstopper is better because it’s “pure and wholesome” (aka: has no sexual content) bother me because that mindset is what can lead to censorship. It starts with people praising some media for being “more wholesome” and “more appropriate” and eventually it becomes a downwards spiral that prevents people from producing media that represents themselves and others. Like, in certain states in America (I’m British so, sorry if any of this is inaccurate) they’re banning books from schools and libraries about race, gender, sexuality, etc. and *that is censorship.* Infighting within our own community is only going to make matters worse.
What is wrong with people, they are 15 and 16. In Norway the average age of debut for boys are almost 18. I think it represents pretty much the UK as well. I think people have forgotten how it was when they were young!
I feel like some people forget this is based off a webtoon. Sex isn’t the easiest thing to get away with. And they aren’t going to grow in sex just for the heck of it.
People overlooking the fact that Alice Oseman is non binary and aroace is sad.... Hyper sexual teens (and adults) are over represented, even when nothing sexual is actually happing, it's still implied. Why would anyone want kids (the target audience for heartstopper) to see only bad things about them?? Why can't you offer a healthy alternative???
While Alice's sexuality might influence her writting, just like everyone's personal experiences influence the art we create (although i am not a fan of people linking someone being aroace to it being the reason they dont want to include sex), I think a lot of people miss the number 1 reason the show doesnt have sex (yet !) and that is the target audience. The cast and crew have talked about their surprise about how much adults loved the show because the show was originaly created for tweens and teens. The show needs to be watchable by an 11 yo (S1 was even rated +7 in France last year and +8 in Germany). And even when the topic of sex will be brought to the story, it will do like the comic and find a very good balance of not shying away from the subject while still making it still accessible for tweens. So to see adults complaining about this, and about the teens not being wild enough, that the show should have more edge, really feels like adults wanting to take away something that isnt made for them. And about the teens not being realistic enough, I think there needs to be a big subject about how media influences teens' behavior, and the pressure they put on themselves. I did have a friend when I was a teen who watched so much hypersexualized supposidly teen medias that she really started to think that it was embarassing to arrive in highschool without ever having had sex and that had bad consequences. So yeah, the fact that Heartstopper shows that it is ok to not be ready even if you want to, and communicating that to your partner is absolutely fantastic and I'm delited some teens are gonna grow up with that in their head. And honestly, I watch a lot (and by a lot, i mean A LOT) of tv shows, and this is the first time a portrayal of teens has been that close to how my teen years were. So, unrealistic ? For them maybe, but not all of us. Like you, I totally understand the fear behind those terrible takes. And it might be a surprise to them, but even Heartstopper (the comic cause we havent reached that part yet in the show) has been a victim of people trying to sanitize it on the topic of sex. There has been quite a few bad reactions when people realized the topic of sex was going to be adressed, acting like it was gross or even problematic. I think there is a mix of younger audiences confusing being young and not comfortable about sex with "i am uncomfortable so it's problematic", and conservatives ideas creeping into the community. But hitting on Heartstopper, a show for tweens and teens really is not it. And calling it a show for straight people or that cather to conservatives is just bullshit.
[24 y/o bisexual here] as someone that lost their virginity around the age of 19, I gotta say that I, at no point, thought the show was unrealistic in that regard. The show also shows them both experimenting a little with like the neck kissing. I personally LOVED the scene of Nick and Charlie having "the talk" [about not being ready to have sex] because it shows how comfortable both of them are to be honest with each other, to actually say when you're not so sure about something, to voice your boundaries. Heartstopper has the potential to be a huge influence on how teenagers will communicate in their own (future) relationships - showing that you should be able to talk about important stuff like that with your partner
Your affirming analysis of the series presentation of a "near perfect" and "fantasy world" for LGBTQ+ teens reminded me of an insight that I have had for decades. I am 73 years of age, came out at 19 in '69 and fought on campus with the Gay Liberation Front. At 20, I met my partner who was 29 at the time and we were together for 33 wonderful years until his death of bone cancer in '03. During my career in education and psychology, I was consistently open about my life with colleagues, students and *was* 'that gay presence' in child/adolescent education and mental health systems who created/promoted diversity education programs and supported LGBTQ+ children/adolescents. I share this information to underscore the fact that, (as a growing up gay boomer) in my situation I was fortunate enough to *have* the desire and ability to fight back against the Heterosexism of our culture and lived and live a very happy life. I recognize that this was, unfortunately, not the case for many of my generation. Now, to my insight: Regardless of all that was positive in my youth and young adulthood, from the moment, during puberty, that I self-identified as gay, I was simultaneously bombarded by *this* Heterosexist message: You are gay because you want to have male/male sex. *This* is your "identity." But, through the decades, I have always asked myself the "What if" questions: What if your all-boys high school and the culture at large did *not* label you as abnormal, different and *solely* focused upon sex? What if you *had* had openly gay friends (similar to yourself) rather than fearful, closeted frightened and bullied boys? What if your crush on that boy, Peter, (perhaps himself gay) could have been expressed beyond the carefully constructed 'buddy' friendship? What if there *had* been openly gay teachers who could have supported you in the recognition that you were more than simply a being desiring sexual acts with males but a fully fleshed out individual? The answer is: I would *not* have been burdened with this overlay of viewing myself as *only* "complete" as a gay boy/man once I had male/male sex. And, during my teen years, I *did* receive this odd message and *did* sense that until I had male/male sex, I wasn't *truly* gay! A final personal life experience that first brought the recognition that none of this was accurate for me: When I met my guy in 1970 and we were falling in love at first sight, that night (all night) we were so enthralled that we were uninterested in having actual sex. For that one night, he and I were our "natural" selves: We went with our natural instincts and were obsessed with only kissing and immersing ourselves in each other. (P.S. We did have very hot sex the next night and for the next 33 years - but I think that you and other readers get my point.) :)
70-year-old boomer here who is obsessed with Heartstopper. It is the teenage years I never had - accepting, honest, loving. It fills me with joy. I know if I were 15 or 16 kissing another boy that much we would be doing a lot more that that, but I'm fine with Nick and Charlie being sexually innocent. Charlie was only 14 when he met Nick, that ought to be considered. The other thing I want to say is Heartstopper gave me the vocabulary to use regarding my first Crush - I just wanted to be around him all the time. I was very Charlie Spring at that age without the supportive family. Thank goodness for Heartstopper.
I love how wholesome and healthy the relationships in this show are. I am exhausted, that all teens on tv look like mid 20 years old, go to the gym and look just perfect and always are overly sexualized. Its not realistic and not all teenagers are the same and there are teenagers who might wait. Also I love that people in that show have healthy conversations even when they fight it never gets toxic accept for ben, but even that doesn’t unroll like other toxic shows would have. Teenagers need more of healthy shows like that!
I grew up watching Disney channel so even if it is unrealistic, it’s a good feel show that highlights moments that feel like a beautiful fairy tale and that some of us did not experience! It’s a breath of fresh air to see such a pure love! Ppl really be mad because this isn’t the next euphoria
THANK YOU! I watched Verily’s video yesterday and it upset me to my core. The thing about Verily’s video is that it implies that they are right. Assuming that they are right about every LGBTQ+ experience based solely on their own experience is ignorance to the core. I spent my entire childhood and young adult life feeling like an outcast in the gay community because I did not resonate with hookup culture, with drugs, and with partying every night. I feel like most media these days portrays the gay community through the lens of non-monogamy, hypersexuality, and deviancy (when compared to heteronormative relationships). Heartstopper has been some of the first LGBT content that I resonate with, and I’m grateful for it. The fact that so many LGBT content creators are saying it’s not representative of the REAL gay culture or experience is concerning. It’s time to end the narrative that any one gay experience is more normal than another. If you don’t want a more heteronormative representation of gay relationships on your screen, then don’t watch. Go watch Queer as Folk, Euphoria, or any of the other more progressive representations. These are kids, young highschoolers, and the sex in the storyline is coming soon, not that it should matter.
heartstopper is honestly boring to me so i get where these people come from... but it's possible to accept that not everything is made for you. just because you prefer a show with more sex and drama doesn't mean heartstopper is bad for not including those things. i also think on the other side of the argument, the people praising heartstopper for being fluffy can do so without putting down darker narratives. we should have a big variety of representation including all sorts of genres! i think because of the lack of queer media, we tend to be overcritical about what we do get. which is very unproductive to representation overall
Heartstopper is such a good example of what we actually want to see as queer youth, a wholesome feel-good drama many of us can take for comfort. Not some oversexualized romance that features 25 year olds playing teenagers. I love that Heartstopper is sex-free, I don't care how "unrealistic" Heartstopper is, I just LOVE that I can watch something I can actually relate too and feel good about myself. And its not just about the love, Heartstopper explores so many themes and very real topics that so many other productions skip over, like mental health, bullying, family problems and much more. Heartstopper is everything i could ask for in a teen drama. 🍂
They haven't had sex yet on the show because at that point in the story they haven't had sex yet in the comic (which is the source material). It's not that hard to understand 😂 Also, why are we so obsessed with having teen gays having sex on TV/film? There's a big problem with gay men being perceived as hyper sexual people who are always horny all the time - so to me it's very refreshing seeing them being portrayed as wholesome teenagers who also value other things like friendship, education, their future, etc.
I do have to say, if these people saw a lack of sex in a heterosexual lead show, they wouldn't bat an eye or say it's awful representation of teen lives, in fact they probably wouldn't bring up the sex until it happened in the context of the actual show. Notice that they aren't up in arms about the straight couples not having sex, but they are pissed that the gays aren't.
*Spoilers for future seasons* ~~~~~ The thing that kills me is that for readers of the webcomics that update like once a week to this day, we all know that Charlie and Nick have just reached the point where they do want to have sex and are dealing with the emotions and logistics of making that happen. The slow burn may not be realistic I guess but it suits the pacing and tone of this story
I’m really happy with how Oseman has handled it in the comics. Nick and Charlie both talk about emotional issues and they’re so respectful of each other’s consent. Idk if it’s realistic for 16-17 year olds to be that mature but it sets a good example for younger readers.
THANK. YOU. SERIOUSLY. If any of these people bothered to look at the source material, they'd see it IS addressed, just not right out the gate like they seem to think it should've been. It takes a couple years in the narrative, but the main characters are still in their late teens when they very much DO start, ehhhhhm, "fooling around". I'm beeeeeeegging the naysayers to please, for the love of god, possess just a scrap of truly knowing what the hell they're talking about.
I found the video really interesting and I 100% agree that the perceived “lack” of explicit sexual content doesn’t provide a good reason to criticise Heartstopper as a show! Just seeing how many ace / demi / aro people in my online bubble feel represented by it is so nice. At the same time I also found your analysis on why there is some backlash even from within the queer community extremely important! I understand, that some queer people fear that a show like Heartstopper could just be the spoonful of sugar that makes puritan attempts that are actually out there go down which may contribute to actual attempts to ban certain groups at pride events, which is why they feel attacked. That people might go: “but you liked Heartstopper too - why do we need xyz at Pride?” I don’t think Heartstopper is to blame though, but these actual attempts at excluding groups are. But for me as someone who really likes the series it means: should I ever interact with someone who comes at me like: “but Heartstopper was so sweet, so why do we need leather and kink and people in various states of undress at pride, they are just gross!” I’ll answer them: “just because you don’t need it and enjoyed Heartstopper doesn’t mean that opinion should be generalized - as the other way round. They don’t try to undress you so stop trying to redress them. Pride is diverse and we’re all part of the community.”
First, I'll just say that I love both your and verilybitchie's videos. I appreciate the way that you address differing opinions in a nuanced way and without demonizing the people whose points you are critiquing. I think that's a big problem in the queer discourse sphere at the moment. I do think that the sanitization of queer media is a problem, and that verilybitchie makes a lot of great points about it in her video, and you both spoke to a major issue being the types of queerness and types of the individuals that are represented. I can also understand why she included heartstopper in the video, but I don't think heartstopper is necessarily the right target in the larger conversation about sanitization of queerness. Does everything in heartstopper resonate with me, an adult twice the age of some of the characters? No, of course not, because I'm an adult twice their age. But it does make me remember watching the shows on tv when I was that age and thinking oh, maybe I am not really queer, or maybe I'm not living queerness correctly, because I have never seen anything on tv that looks like what I want (not to mention, on another note of bad representation--surely I can't be a lesbian, because I don't want to end up miserable or dead.) I'm glad this show exists for teens who were like me. I take more issue with things like a post I saw the other day about Red, White & Royal Blue insisting that a sex scene in it was so good because it was "not oversexualized" and "not even about sex" but rather about love which...wait a minute. Why can't something be about both sex and love at the same time? Separating gay sex from gay love as though they can't coexist and as though gay sex is usually completely devoid of love is a big problem. What's not a problem, in my opinion, is showing two young teens acknowledge that they are interested in sex but not ready for it. It annoys me that the article you cited seemed to entirely miss that conversation. I'm looking forward to your video on slow burn! I read a lot of romance and have been complaining to a friend recently about that topic lately.
from a queer who has tried and failed to watch Heartstopper several times, i’m still so glad it exists because i know that even if i can’t find comfort in it, so many other queer people can
Gen Z is growing up in a time with increased villification of queer people; I think its logical to want to say ''Actually thats not what queerness is; it can be so wholesome and come with all the beautiful feelings!'' while millenials grew up feeling like they needed to fight to say ''We can be queer in our own way, no matter how shocking to you, and that's just as valid.'' It's a reaction to the cycle of periods of queer persecution and relative acceptance that mark all our history. Its very much a generational issue because the positions taken are formed by the world you find when you're in the ''Lets see what it's like out here'' stage of life. Gen Z is this way in response to what they (we? I'm from 99, grey area) hear said about people like us
I love this. Thank you. I watch teen shows like Sex Education that delve into that aspect of the teenage experience. I love the sex positivity in that type of show. I find it interesting, thought provoking, and entertaining, but it’s not an experience that I ever had nor can I relate to it. Heartstopper is the fantasy that so many queer people wish they had been able to live. I can relate to the reactors that you showed clips of because HS made me cry a bit too. I gives me the opportunity to vicariously experience an adolescence that I never got a chance to have. Also, I watched Verily Bitchy’s video essay, and it genuinely upset me. They seem to think that all bi people must be messy, chaotic, and hyper-sexual - no room for diverse personalities and desires. Nope, we must all be the messy, slutty bi stereotype. I really hated that video. 😩 (Edited for typos)
To the person who said that "they're all skinny," no. they're not. isaac has a rounder figure than the others, and nick is athletic because he plays rugby and has for a while. and yeah, charlie is skinny. because he has ANOREXIA. they don't need to be having sex for you to enjoy the show. there are more things to life than sex.
I really think this all just stems from people not seeing asexuality and aromanticism as valid. I follow the creator of heart stopper, and while I don’t watch the show myself, I know that before season 2 came out she had mentioned that it would be validating for aro ace people. Being aroace myself it really frustrates me that the rest of the queer community continues to minimize, invalidate, and erase our experiences, simply riding it off as “puritanical”. My experience is just as queer as anyone else’s in the community. My experience is not fundamentally “less political” or “less authentic” simply because it doesn’t fit your allonormative of queerness. If you want a more sexualized queer show you can literally watch any other queer show out there. But understand that us ace and aro folk don’t always have the same privilege. Thanks for starting this conversation. I hope that more people can realize just how rooted in ace-exclusion and erasure these criticisms are.
It doesn't need sex. I'm ao glad that have actual teens playing teen roles and you really don't want to watch teens having sex. Because if it did and it had things such as subatanxe abuse it would be hated on by the media but since it doesnt it's being judged as unrealistic and it does not make sense. There are too many negative queer hows and movies and for once it's nice to watch something comforting with relatable and helpful lessons.
I hate people calling out bad representation just because they themselves didn't identify with a character. Actually I don't like the idea of "reprezentation" in general. Fictional characters don't need to be a rep for everyone, people are not a monolith and just because 1 person cannot identify with the character doesn't mean no one else can.
Teen boy here (gay and demisexual for a bit of context). I believe that Heartstopper (and hopefully other similar media in the future) showing a world without sexual pressure is extremely important right now, not just for queer people. Our society places way too much emphasis on sex, I fully understand, that the average person has a high sex-drive (compared to me at least), but the way that the main characters handled the sexual part of their relationship is admirable. From what I've experienced, not having sex, or not enough sex is frowned upon. A big regret for me is how my first sexual experiences went for this reason. My first boyfriend really wanted us to have sex early on in our relationship (for me at least) I didn't feel quite ready but I also felt pressured not just by him, but by the whole world to start being sexually active, because that's what people are pushing all the time. So in the end I agreed to sleep with him multiple times, even tho I didn't really want to deep down. It took me quite some time to realize that that was very unhealthy and bad for me. I give a lot of credit to Heartstopper for helping me realize that my feelings about sex were valid and the fact that I didn't want to do it was perfectly fine. I agree that the world of Heartstopper isn't realistic but for crying out loud, what piece of popular media is? Heartstopper shows an idealistic world, where teens can figure out who they are and what they want with the necessary support. Our current world focuses wayyy too much on sex and it's hurting people. It's hurting asexuals for whom it's really difficult to figure out "what's wrong with them", it's hurting the people in relationships where they want to have less sex than their partners but feel pressured to comply anyways, and it's hurting teens like myself. Everyone has different desires regarding sex and that's perfectly fine in my opinion, and that's exactly why open conversation similiar to what Nick and Charlie had in the show should be encouraged. The moral of that scene isn't that you or teens shouldn't have sex, it's that you should be able to freely communacate with your partner about your desires or lack there of, without being pressured to do something you don't want to. Yes, teens (and people in general) are "naughtier", but people who are stuck up on that miss the WHOLE POINT OF THE SHOW. It's done in this very wholesome and family friendly way so that kids and young teens can watch it and start their dating life knowing how to be good and kind to their future partners, and know how someone might hurt them. If they put more explicit scenes in, they would miss the audience that needs to see it the most in my opinion. I believe the creators of the show helped a lot of people (myself very much included) avoid getting hurt or hurting others. In my opinion the main overarching moral of the show is that we're all very different in maany ways, but we can overcome that and strive for happiness if we can discuss our issues and try to be understanding with each other and NOT PUT PRESSURE ON PEOPLE.
thats a great video! i am a 30 year old gay guy from India! heartstopper for me is fantasy but it felt so healing from all the pains that i had to go through in my teens. longed for this sweet teen romance but instead was hiding and pretending to be a heterosexual and tried to change and control myself. hence this was definitely a beautiful escape for me. regarding the puritan propaganda yes it is out there a lot but i dont think this show has anything to do with that even if it does chuck it the show was great. regarding the sex scenes it is necessary for people to understand that its okay to stay virgin until you are ready.i have seen many have sex out of pressure or merely out of fomo. i lost my virginity at the age of 25 only as i was not ready before. thankfully i didnt fall for the traps before i was ready and my first experience was the best as iwas completely ready and into it. this show has normalised consent, denormalised bullying and most importantly glorified coming out which is important that someone should do when and how they want to. like charlie in the show i was outed by someone to my family but this show does bring the importance of that.
I feel this was one of the more realistic depictions of how we queer/straight teens function. Having coursework, having our firsts, being awkward, learning how to communicate, learning to balance friendships and relationships, common mental health issues we face, the way some of us get treated for being different. Of course it’s a show requiring some drama but the entire depiction felt so close to home and so cohesive and maybe realistic even. I feel the only not very realistic part is their profound emotional maturity or maybe it is and I haven’t found such people yet. But I digress as we need to show queer love simply being love fleshed out, which this show clearly does. We see how Nick-Charlie, Tara-Darcy, Elle-Tao, Isaac ( since Aled ain’t here ) navigate through their identities, themselves and some simple and complex daily life problems. I think that’s what makes this a comfortable watch for all of us because even though yeah they’re making us feel single but simultaneously they make us feel that we’re not alone. That probably establishing such interpersonal relationships with people and their healthy boundaries, the work, the trust put in to maintain them etc. is addressed very well both the webcomic and the series. There are quite some significant changes, but none of them felt out of place. They seemed to fit really well.
Yeah I never really got this criticism, not every teen is having sex. I know that it wasn't like this for me growing up and even me now in college. I'm just the quiet type. So this show was refreshing in general compared to all other teen shows. It isn't inherently bad, but it is pretty oversaturated in media at this point.
![ILLSLICK - KILLSHOT REMIX [FULL VERSION]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RIK8RrqIAzE/mqdefault.jpg)
I love that in season 2, Nick says he’s not ready. Lots of teens are not ready for sex. Even if they have sexual desires, as I did. It’s still fucking vulnerable to share your body with another human for the first time. Especially when you’re queer and are figuring out what sex even means for you.
Exactly! A lot of teens aren’t ready for sex and will look at Nick and learn the language of how to set boundaries in a kind way. So many teens were pressured into sex early and I’m sure so many wish they could have talked about it the way it’s talked about in the show.
Agreed. And if this has been a show about a heterosexual couple and the girl was the one who said she wasn’t ready, no one would take issue with it. It’s patriarchal conditioning that makes us think it’s crazy only when it’s a boy saying he’s not ready, and that makes a lot of boys feel like there’s something wrong with them if they feel that way.
+
agree!
@@edithputhy4948 There's lots of teenagers that don't have sex though, it's indeed the reality. I was one of them, so were some of my friends. We had desires and I'm pretty sure we all masturbated, but we didn't want to have sex yet. I didn't feel comfortable in my body at the time and was way too scared of being that intimate with someone, especially since I wanted it to be someone special whom I can trust and not some random person.
my personal opinion is that there has been such an OVERSATURATION of shows aimed at teen audiences that are so hypersexual & mature in content, that its refreshing to see a show about kids just being sweet & innocent & not ready for all of that. We've been given shows like pretty little liars, riverdale, euphoria, etc. that all feature 25 year old actors doing adult things for so long that we've forgotten that there is still a lot of naivety & wholesomeness that comes with being young & a teenager. Rather than the depressing, dark, & gritty vibes were constantly shown, this is such a breath of fresh air to see something so lighthearted & full of hope / joy! kids need to see positive, calm representations of coming-of-age stories or theyre going to constantly feel immature for not going at it like bunnies, drinking / doing drugs, and idk solving murders? lol Having a wholesome show like heartstopper can also make queer people less afraid of existing & show these identities in a normal light. Normalizing "unrealistic" scenarios, like in heartstopper, could lead to that kind of expression & experience actually being realistic in the future. If people only see the bullying, addiction, and tension in shows, thats all they'll ever expect.
Yes to ALL of this ☝️. Very well said, thanks you. 👏👏👏
I also feel this way about the constant thing of “Ofc they should be horny, they’re Teenage Boys!!!”, because so much of Nick’s story specifically is about how much people project onto him because of their expectations of teenage boys.
I AGREE WITH ALL OF THIS!! As a 16 year old girl when you constantly see teenagers portrayed that way I almost makes you feel left out and like I’m failing to have what media deemed the “typical teenage experience “. To be honest I’ve never held hands romantically or gone on a date. So sometimes it’s hard to relate to the characters in some of those shows. I really enjoyed heartstopper because of how wholesome and for lack of better words “innocent” they were. To me it seemed much more attainable? Like I KNOW people my age and YOUNGER are having sex but I also know that none of them are ready tbh😂 like they just rush into things like that because their piers are doing it and it’s so normalized in “teenage” media. Oh also Charlie literally only turned 15 at the beginning of the show!!! LIKE THEY SHOULD NOT BE RUSHING TO HAVE SEX?????
Yes yes yes! 👏👏👏
Yeah! As an early teenage gay boy myself, in the environment and mindset I'm living in it's hard to even find a guy. Not to mention the fact that I do feel pressure to have sexual or romantic things going on... and honestly I think that for some of us, it's way more realistic what it's portrayed on heartstopper. I am LIVING for the representation :) love Alice
It's sad that people don't have this same no sex criticism for non LGBT teen shows/movies. High school musical had ZERO kissing, not to talk of sex and everybody loved it.
Yes. Disney shows are recognised as being for children, and people are fine with that. Heartstopper is also a kids show, so naturally it's going to tone down physical intimacy. 8 year old queer kids can watch this and see shows about themselves. I'm not quite sure why supposedly progressive people have an issue with a story about lgbt teens being made accessible to kids as well as adults.
@@louiskingsta6142it is absolutely toned down to allow a younger audience to access a show that represents them. That was intentional. There are young people out there that are starting to feel attraction to members of the same sex that aren’t anywhere near ready for sex.
@@louiskingsta6142I think they meant first season,(apart from final of EP1 the Ben thing)
@ezequielmondada6427 yes, I did have the first season in mind. The second season can perhaps grow up with the audience, albeit grow up faster than one would typically expect in a kids show.
It's not uncommon for kids shows to have some elements of risky teen behaviour, while still trying to cater for kids who are not ready to deal with these directly. I watched the original degrassi series, and the Jr high series had similar things.
and the princess diaries and so on. Is fucking annoying
Honestly as a 16 year old like none of my inner circle has had sex. Yeah we talk about it sometimes and some people do have it but I definitely feel like heartstopper isn't any further from reality than all the hypersexual shows. The truth lies some where in between.
Same here! I find that most teens fall in between having their Heartstopper and Euphoria-esque moments, which is why both types of shows are popular!
Same 😄 still so grateful for my high school friend group of single not-yet-realised queers 😂
I’m in college and almost all of my friends had their first sexual experiences after they were 18. Some of them haven’t even been on a date yet. Everyone does things at their own pace
Yeah, realistically, like, 50% of teens have had sex by the time they're 18 and these kids are all 15/16. There is a large variety of ages that people have sex for the first time.
I'm 19 and my closest circle is mostly virgin lol
it AGGRAVATES me people want this show to be more sexual. I am a teenager (19), I am bi, and hate that every queer love story in western media i've come across just has to have a s*x scene and drugs. This show is finally just a comforting, cute, romantic love story. There are so many shows these people complaining can watch instead. Also, these people clearly don't know many teens, because I can safely say that most 15/16 year old teens aren't having s*x, even if they are dating, ikr shocker. Stop being a creep and let me have one queer show that is way more realistic to my life than any drug induced, partying, s*x scened show.
I completely agree with you. As a SA survivor, so many of those ppl were in fact not having sex but being SA'd and don't realize until later in life bc we are taught that we should just be grateful.
I think the minority that are complaining have internalized the ideas that queer ppl are inherently perverse and political and have put that above their own humanity and healing. We are nuanced humans and being queer is part of our identity but there is so much more to us. We deserve so much more.
Yeah 100%! This show is rare because it shows a different way to be a teen - a way that resonates with so many watchers, regardless of age.
So does that mean at 19 you haven’t had a sexual encounter? I find that not typical. At what age do most young men have their first sexual experience? I think it is unrealistic to have a show about two star crossed loved at 17-18, who haven’t had sex. Doesn’t have to be explicit, but it shouldn’t be ignored.
I think a show can show sex (or let the characters have it) without it being exploitative or over sexualized. That’s nothing against heartstopper, just speaking in a general sense 😊
@@xviolist You seem to be under the impression that the average age is the cut off limit as well. Plenty of people have late sexual experiences and they are just as typical as the people who had their first experience at 15.
The average age of first sexual experience is 17 btw (depending on where you live, it's 18 in the Netherlands), and that is the average, so there are plenty of people who are earlier or later.
Also, these kids are 15. They are not even at the average age for a first sexual experience. Calm down.
I’m a gay man on the ace spectrum. I’m sex positive and want all my queer friends to feel sexually liberated, but it feels great to have a modern popular piece of media that doesn’t prioritize sex.
This was a great analysis. Loved everything you mentioned!
THIS. sexual liberation includes the freedom to say no to sex.
The bizarre critiques to how sex is handled in heartstopper is just that, bizarre to me.
id like to note that even the cast themselves have said that the show is like looking through life and the queer experience through rose tinted glasses. it's meant to be too perfect, too pure, too wholesome. that was the aim of the show - to create a safe, idealised version of what being queer means today.
i love that. even though the story does include some darker themes, i think they can balance the realism with a lighter tone. it’s so refreshing to see some queer stories that don’t end in someone dying, or them being ripped apart by their homophobic family or something lmao.
It is also so effed up that a story with self-harm, phyisical/sexual assault and severe bullying is thought of as "too perfect to be real" by queer standards. Maybe it is the standards that are wrong... Gay people will fawn over Legally Blonde but accuse Heartstopper for being "too sweet".
@ville__ being gay is not a choice, just like your mum giving birth to you wasn’t either
@ville__ really pisses me off that youtube won't remove this homophobic comment but keeps removing mine when i tell him to f*ck off
@ville__ is being straight a choice too?
The thing that annoys me is that in the comics, it’s *explicit* that Nick and Charlie’s relationship becomes sexual-with references to “hand stuff” and condoms and having sex a lot-when they’re 17 and 16, respectively, which is *a statistically normal age.*
Something I really appreciated in season two was the portrayal of alcohol (also mentioned by Verily), and how you get characters saying things like “There’s alcohol if you want it, and other stuff if you don’t”, and people drinking a safe-ish amount for the first time in a safe environment. In both cases, it doesn’t read to me as whitewashed or sanitised purity culture: it reads to me as a portrayal of teens having the space to come to alcohol and sex in their own time, on their own terms.
It only becomes sexual later in the books. The volumes (1,2 and 3) that S1 and S2 are based on don't portray a sexual relationship yet so maybe S3 will show more.
@@lovelight1149 Yes, for sure-my point was that "This show is sexphobic and puritanical because it's not showing sex at the ages of 14/15" is extreeeemely weird to me as an argument.
Yeah the alcohol comment is so on point. Another great example of the show showing how experiences should be handled!
I’m a queer teen and that’s exactly how I’d approach these things. HA, ACCURACY
Same, l had my first drink at 15 years old after cheerleading practice. It definitely looked like this. We're crammed inside a small space, taking shots of the little but strong booze we could afford. Then, there is that one person who is brave enough to either dance, or kiss, or confess their longest held crush who will then proceed to vomit in tears.
FFS, Are we not allowed to have a show that is just a feel good story? I'm frankly fed up with EVERY show that features queer representation as something swimming in angst and agony and sex (also, very dramatic and most times traumatic in some ways) as if we cannot ever be happy. Can't we have a fantasy? Or hope for a better future? It's not even like Heartstopper lacks drama, it's just the drama is about feelings and mental health. If you want to watch Euphoria, go watch it. Maybe, This show it's just not your kind of show. That's ok, but don't police it.
100%! Let us have this lovely show that bring joy and something new.
100% agree with this take. The show isn’t for me, and I don’t really think about it all that much.
Like there is still pretty harsh drama and angst, though some of it is not shown explicitly on screen (like the year long bullying or Charlie's self harm). But there is the very real abuse and sexual assault stuff in the first few episodes. It's just that the queer characters' identity and life are not summed up in the trauma, it is not taken to tragic lengths and generally the characters are surprisingly emotionally mature (which for me is a welcome change when most shows that feature relationships, the conflict always revolves around bad communication and emotional stuntedness). As a gay guy in East Europe there is not a whole lot of LGBTQ+ rep to go around and I got so exhausted and depressed and angry that any Western media that has gay people in it that I saw, the gay character just seemingly never catches a break (eg. Downton Abbey, Magicians). Finally there is a show where gay people are allowed to earn a happy ending at the end of their suffering.
Queerness being normalized will and should mean more and more diverse stories will be made about us and not everyone will love all of it and that is good. That means we are finally not portrayed as a monolithic "THE gay character". Just like there are a million different stories about hetero people and not all hetero people like or relate to every single one of them, queer people should have a similar variety.
Your comment about how Nick and Charlie’s discussion about progressing physically ended being not what would likely happen, but how many of us WISHED it had happened, really hit me. I do wish I had waited just a little bit.
Yeah same! Thanks for your comment 💕
YES YES YES!!!! there's so many ways to be queer and it doesnt always have to involve sex. Heartstopper is closer to my reality than most of these other queer shows, honestly. I think we should have a variety of queer media, some people like it when it has sex, which is ok, but other people aren't always interested in having sex on every queer media. I myself really adore the dreamy and extremely romantic vibes of Heartstopper. But maybe that's because i am on the ace spectrum and sex is not that important to me. But I am also a lesbian and Heartstopper honestly makes me so happy. I wish I could have a relationship like Charlie and Nick's.
As someone who’s also on the ace spectrum I agree. I think a lot of shows marketed to queer audiences push this idea of sex so they can be like “Oh look see, gay sex. This wouldn’t usually be allowed but we think it is normal!” But to me it’s usually just pointless and usually doesn’t have much to do with the plot it’s just there for the gasps and “inclusion”. Just my opinion though
As someone that isn’t on the Ace spectrum I would also to agree. Shows with queer relationships don’t always have to have sex I too like the dreamy romantic version of Heartstopper.
As someone that has been into other guys for a while, but these days feeling like perhaps I am somewhere on the ace spectrum, I found Heartstopper's lack of sex to be pretty accurate toward my experiences with any boy I was lucky enough to end up in a relationship with during high school. However, over time I realized it was more of a one sided contentment with the lack of sex. My partners would often grow disinterested in the relationship when they realized I wasn't going to immediately put out. I always felt like maybe there was something wrong with me, and I did try to be receptive of their feelings in that regard, but I just wasn't ready to rush through every stage of the relationship.
So while I understand that for many other queer kids, sex exploration and experimentation might be a huge deal for them at that time in their lives, I truly was content with just being around someone that I liked. It was refreshing for me to see relationships in Heartstopper where sex isn't the main focus, or even seemingly on the radar, for most of the seasons. I get that not everyone vibes with that, and it doesn't represent everyone's experiences, but I think having alternative experiences being shown is just as important. There is plenty of gay media where sex is a large focus, so I don't see the harm in having a show where it isn't the only thing on the characters' minds.
As someone who is bisexual and with a really high libido I also agree with you, I like hearthstopper because is romantic and is like fresh air.
@ville__i mean if you can choose to be attracted to men right now then i have some news for you buddy
To me, it's very realistic that a 16-year-old boy who has just found out he's bi and is just starting to tell people is not ready to have sex. Charlie doesn't like himself and he has complex so it's exactly the same for him. Those who say it is unrealistic do not take these factors into account and think only of young men in general.
I don't drink, I don't rave, I don't party, I don't have sex as a teen. Most of them do, that's probably why I never had any real friends. Everyone thinks I'm boring and not relatable. Heartstopper is the perfect dream world where I would fit into people my age, not pressured by expectations.
you're definitely not alone! when i was that age i never did any of that stuff, and tbf still don't really in my twenties. and i don't feel like i'm missing out for it either, different personalities are just suited to different things. i would probably be quite miserable if i forced myself to do stuff like that all the time. but i reckon you'll find people like you eventually! they might not be in your school but uni/working can be a great time to find people like you, especially if you go to slightly bigger colleges/towns. they're out there, i promise!
Damn. I'm an older queer & specifically remember having the conversation with another boy in high school about how I just wasn't ready for more than kissing (and this was the 80s!). I'm shocked (well, not really) to hear anyone is complaining about the lack of sex in Heartstopper. I will say a lot of the negative remarks I have seen about the series always seem to include some indication that the critic either hasn't actually seen the show or wasn't paying very close attention.
Yeah. I think people that have never been on the asexuality spectrum, never had to learn that it's like a real thing bc the media never portrays it. Disappointing but I'm so grateful for heartstopper
Love this! I am a middle Millennial so my teen years were early 2000s. I learned from teen magazines from age 12 onward a lot of stuff before I had opportunity to experience it myself, like YEAH I appreciated the tips on how to be a good kisser, but also learned a lot about dangerous drugs, how to deal with conflict with friends, and like, how important it is to do things only when you are ready and not let anyone pressure you when it comes to sex! I think today’s Gen Z teens also receive this message, because i’ve read that they are statistically less sexually active than previous generations.
I have also always heard it said by people like Dan Savage that most gays have to learn how to communicate about sex early and often, because there’s no single presumed act and each person doesn’t have a presumed role in it, compared to heterosexual intercourse (and yikes, wouldn’t those of us engaging in that be so much better off without that always being the presumed meaning of the word “sex”). So stumbling through that communication and figuring it out naturally is considered part of the queer experience, and here it is already starting to be depicted in the show!
@@twobluestripesYeah so much of the queer experience is figuring out what sex IS for you
The person that said “They’ve never had an impure thought, drank a sip of alcohol, or uttered a swear word” is crazy. Obviously they didn’t watch the show because ALL THOSE THINGS happened in the show.
Also Charlie and Nick spend the first 5 minutes of the show making out in a montage showing them over the course of a few weeks, like “No lust?” Excuse me are we watching the same show???
I’m mad 😂😂😂😂
To be fair the critiquing the swearing is actually valid .... Nick and Charlie both swear a lot in the comics. They have SIGNIFICANTLY sanitize the language in the show even in season 2 where they did actually add some more slight swearing content back into the show but it's still absolutely not as explicit as it is in the comics.... Nick and Charlie throw shits and fucks around ALL the time in the comics. And as for the substance use the substance use that happens in season 2 is 1 of the 2 instances alcohol is used in the comics and Alice's novels about Nick and Charlie..... So yeah I can understand why people might have their critiques about that as well... That infrequent use of alcohol does not reflect my own teenage years. And I'm still an introvert to did NOT go to parties would just drink with close friends in small gatherings but it's still absolutely happened more than it happens in the comics...But yeah I definitely agree that Alice has written teenage lust decently... Not explicitly but it absolutely is still there in both the TV show and the comics. Especially, for someone who doesn't experience it as Alice is aromantic and asexual. They did a decent job. I usually prefer the content I consume to be more sexually explicit but I understand that Alice isn't comfortable writing that kind of content... I do really like their writing even if it isn't what I would normally consume.
@@AnxietyRat I just wanted to add a couple things. I know that I didn't have a particularly normal high school experience, especially when compared to media. I never had any alcohol, in fact, although I went to parties and hung out with friends, none of those parties or hang outs included any alcohol consumption. I also didn't swear a lot in high school (although I had friends that did, so I think that's a valid criticism). Honestly, I think it's fine that they wanted this show rated TV14 and not TVMA just because of language. You can get away with a lot more in a comic than you can in a TV show, and honestly, that's on rating's faults, not on the TV writers and producers' faults.
I really wanted to say that just because Alice is Aroace does not mean that she can't experience lust. Being aroace only means she experiences little to no sexual and romantic ATTRACTION. That isn't the same as experiencing little to no libido or little to no desire to have a romantic or sexual relationship. These are all different things. Aroace is an umbrella term that is used to describe a whole lot of people in the same way that queer is an umbrella term that can describe anyone from a trans person to a bisexual and everything else. To say it's as cut and dry as "Alice is Aroace and cannot experience lust" would be incorrect because we don't know where on the aroace spectrum she is, and it's a bit rude to speculate.
I hope that doesn't come across as rude or anything like that, I just wanted to take the moment to educate a bit, so hopefully that is helpful, haha. I hope you have a wonderful day! ^-^
They do sware and drank alcohol. In Alice's book Solitaire when Charlie relapses with self harm Tori explains how Charlie's eyes were blood shot I think because of the alcohol and in numerous times of her different books it has sware words ❤
They do sware and drank alcohol. In Alice's book Solitaire when Charlie relapses with self harm Tori explains how Charlie's eyes were blood shot I think because of the alcohol and in numerous times of her different books it has sware words❤
I’ve watched and respected Verily Bitchie on here for over a decade, but her take on this feels very projective to me.
this backlash against female authors reminds me of what happend to the author of love, simon. She pretty much had to out herself to stop getting hate. And then the same thing happend to Kit.😢
Alice Oseman is non-binary, they use they/she pronouns. It sucks that people get that backlash. What happened to Kit was so messed up, and I hope he is taking care of himself.
@@butterflypoooIt's a person who is unfortunately affected by misogyny anyways.. 💔☹️
@@butterflypooo I believe they use both she and they pronouns, or have they since stated a preference for they only?
@@AnnekeOosterink Alice uses she/they. I have not heard about them preferring one over the other but I try to use both and not just default to “she”
@@butterflypooo Alice isn't non binary. They are asexual and aromantic but haven't mentioned their gender identity yet.
This is my gripe with no sex criticism. Queerness has to portray intercourse yet somehow ignores the queerness of asexual people. Its not like the boys are sexless either. At season 2 of Heartstopper, they're like 6 months into a relationship. By the time Nick leaves for uni, their bedroom wrestling under a pillow fort will become a frequent occurrence.
Right. The weird attitude people have about it just makes me realize there is real erasure of demisexuality
They’re not even 6 months in in s2, more like 3-4 months by the end of the season. And Charlie is about 3 months past his 15th birthday. Because the actors have visibly gotten older between seasons and the show takes place over such a short period of time, I think a lot of viewers forget or don’t realize just how young they are and how fresh the relationship is.
that's what I was thinking. after reading the Nick and Charlie novella, I realized that in heartstopper, the boys are just at the beginning stages of their relationship, and aren't ready to do more mature things yet. like the creator of this vid pointed out, Charlie has body image issues that would affect how intimate he gets with any partner, and nick just realized he's bisexual like, 2 months ago atp of the story. so of course they're not gonna have sex like, immediately. some ppl just wanna wait till they're ready, and that's fine. the implication that heartstopper 'isn't queer enough' cuz it has no portrayals of sex feels a bit acephobic to me. Isaac isn't interested in sexual or romantic relationships. he's aroace. does that mean he's not queer? No, it doesn't. queerness isn't just intercourse, but the fact that that's the main form of queer rep ppl see in the media to the point that its expected, is quite disappointing, and somewhat concerning, to say the least.
also ppl always seem to either seem to forget or not know that the show was made by an aroace person??? like, the shows not meant to be an accurate portrayal of the queer teenage experience. and its never gonna be, even if that's what they were going for, cuz everyone's experience is different. its supposed to be an idealized portrayal of queerness, whether or not ppl relate to that. during a time when anti-lgbtq+ propaganda is being spread by conservatives, moreso now than before, heartstopper is definitely needed by the queer community. its good for ppl to have something to escape to during such a dark time in the world. so if ppl want to watch shows with more sexual portrayals of queerness, they r free to do so, as there are many out there. they should just leave heartstopper out of that criticism.
@@lavender4658 Remember the scene in episode 6 of season 2 where Charlie is sitting on top of Nick? That scene was supposed to happen way later in the webtoon. It happened after Charlie went home from rehab and his 16th birthday. Charlie didn't want to go all the way and Nick sensed it. Charlie was feeling insecure about how his body changed because of the anorexia and the self harm. That is a lot to put on a recovering anorexic and if Nick wasn't careful, he would have relapsed.
To quote Sahar during this story arc, "It's society that makes it a big deal. There's so much pressure to have sex at this age. People like Marcus (unimportant side character who lost his virginity and is telling everyone about it) makes us feel like everyone is doing it when most people probably aren't."
Wait…season two of Heartstopper was when they where like 2-3 months into the relationship, book 4 was like 4-8 months and book 5 was like a year right??
also as a gen z kid in the uk and was part of "the" queer friend group like the kids in the show and this is the 1st time i've seen a show that actually seen teens be portrayed like us and the kids in my school. cos yes while some people did have sex young, lots of people didn't until 6th form straight or queer. And yeah i find it weird that lots of adults are giving their opinion on what counts as "accurate" representation of queer kids
same here!!
FWIW, I'm a 63-year old gay man, part of the "Boomers II" generation. I've seen a lot of LGBTQ+ representation over the years and its evolution---in film, TV, theater. Rarely has anything moved me as deeply as "Heartstopper". It's quite simply, beautiful. Folks who don't like it have quite a few other choices to make. Thanks for this very fine commentary.
And thank you for your very lovely comment!
Nick and Charlie’s not-ready-yet conversation is almost exactly the way that chat played out with my (straight) boyfriend when we were sweet, adorable 19 year olds. It’s lovely to see it.
Right. When I had my first partner (at age 20 lol) we literally ~slept 😴~ with each other quite a few times before ever having sex. And our convo to confirm that it we didn't want to go further was the same way 😂
@@gilly_axolotl For years I had to be very specific about what people meant by 'slept with' in truth games and such for just this reason! I think it took 5 years from first sharing a bed to actually having sex with someone.
The exact same conversation happened with me and my partner when we were 19 and 20. I’m glad healthy communication is being shown
I think teens get a bad rap. I have two teenagers and they are not perfect obviously but pretty close. They are fun, funny, kind, and helpful and so are their friends. And so were the teens I worked with as a social worker.
Also, is it really so strange for young teen boys in their first relationship to not be ready to have sex after just two short months? That’s a really new relationship.
As a sexual gay man, I loved seasson two. And I think it's annoying that those people find completely unrealistic that two teenagers are choosing to wait until they are both ready to have sex. As you said, there are SO MANY shows with teenagers having sex in the first opportunity, which yes, is the reality for many many people, is actually unrealistic to think that every single teenager in the world has the same urge. Some people are mad because heartstopper doesn't fit their particular view of what being a teenager is, which is ridiculous. Having to remind people that each person grows up, blooms and feels comfortable with whatever they are doing in their own time is so frustrating. Everyone should know, and unfortunately, but specially queer people should know how damaging the pressure to have sex or to have a relationship you don't want to can be. It's great to have queer show and movies that show sexual and romantic interactions, but it obviously isn't all that is to say about "the queer experience". I think it's great that we have show that portrait sex and show that don't. I think it's great to have all kinds of different life experiences in movies and TV. Heartstopper is just one different point of view. It might not be for everyone, but rarely something is for everyone and manages to make everyone satisfied. And those people complaining about the lack of sex on heartstopper just completely ignored the relationship between the two teatchers and probably didn't read the comics. Not like they needed to to prove anything to anyone, but things have gotten steamy between Nick and Charlie recently Hahaha. They did it in their own terms and their own time. And in my opinion, that is an amazing message for the readers.
Thank you for this. Now, I’m a gay man, 66 and clearly a dinosaur, but aren’t straight kids in high school in a social setting that allows for pacing yourself? From liking someone to talking to them, then a “mini-date” like a cup of coffee, then working up the nerve for a real date like a movie, all the while learning the social skills they need. (That’s ideally, of course, and in practice it’s not always that easy.) Gay kids don’t generally have these opportunities. Even if they’re out, there aren’t usually enough other gay kids around to make that process possible. Sometimes gay bars can seem like the only option. Those are adult businesses where drinking and readiness for sex are assumed. A beginner doesn’t belong there, and in those places a beginner can quickly get in over his head so that real harm is done. But Heartstopper shows us two boys falling in love who ARE allowed to take things at their own pace, and I like that. If they agree that staying at this stage for a while is fine, that’s not a bad thing!
I would argue that it's actually quite realistic that teens want to wait a bit to have sex for the first time. The average age of sexual debut is usually around 17-18, depending where you live. In the US at 18 50% of teens have had their first sexual experience. That means the other 50% has not.
Those 2 15yo boys have been together for only like 2 months or something, and it's both of their first real relationship why are y'all calling it unrealistic they aren't having sex?? When I was that age (and that was about 7 years ago), most people would wait at least a couple of months or half a year, if not longer. It doesn't strike me as unrealistic at all. Especially since it's their first time.
Right! 🙌
thank u for this!! i hate the “it’s not realistic bc they’re not having sex” debate bc they’re like what? 14 in the show?
i didn’t even have my first kiss until i was 19 and when i was their age i was also having my gay awakening and figuring stuff out and it was beyond scary, it’s an accurate portrayal to how things feel at that age
especially to us who were well behaved children and feel like we “missed out”, which heartstopper shows they can still have fun while being “well behaved”
and also,,, let’s just let gay people be wholesome!!!!! sex isn’t always in the picture
As someone who just graduated high school, a lot of my queer friends haven’t shown any interest in sexual relationships, even if they are interested in romantic ones. Quite a few of my ace friends, including me, are tired of the hypersexualization of teens in media. Even for those who aren’t ace, many of us are just trying to find genuine connections to other humans, especially after months of isolation due to the pandemic.Heartstopper means so much to us because it’s just a group of queer teens connecting with each other.
i am gen z and i loved heartstopper, so i tried to get my straight sister (who is also gen z) to watch it because she loved young royals (another mlm show), and she hated it lol. she told me she didn’t like it because it was “for kids”, so i don’t think the wholesomeness of the show is to make it more digestible for straight people. you’re right it is a queer show for queer people and it has helped me be more comfortable with myself even as an adult
Hm, interesting. I guess Young Royals has a bit ( a lot) more drama, but that one also didn´t have suuuper explicit stuff in it. So that shouldn´t really be a factor. But I guess some people just don´t like certain vibes, like Heartstopper´s very cute and wholesome feeling.
@@Beny763my two cents, I don't hate heartstopper, but I definitely think it's just too sugary sweet. I don't mind the lack.of intimate scenes though.
I'm like your sister and I prefer YR because it's a lot more complex and reflects reality more, at least in my view.
Heartstopper is for kids, though. The comic author/show writer Alice Oseman said that the show was meant to be watchable for 11 and 12 year olds. This isn't true for all T-rated shows. I think that's what people are reacting to - the characters are 15-16 y/o teenagers but that's not the targeted demographic, and it shows.
@@virginiarogers9391 yeah, the point i was trying to make, though, was that she didn’t understand the show because she is straight. so when people say heartstopper is for straight girls … i’m not too sure about that. i think it is for queer youth but older queer people love it too ((:
Thanks for your comment! I see heartstopper as a show made for a younger audience, but the the fact that so many adults still loves is show how important and lovely it still is for ALL generations. I love young royals too - but just as you say I think that has a much straighter point of view, so I get why straight women like that one more.
I'm a millennial and I love Heartstopper. For some people this is a realistic representation of their teen years, and for some it's not. And btw, since when do all the queer shows we watch have to be one hundred percent realistic and relatable to our own lives? Has everyone who watched and loved Euphoria or Sex Education experienced exactly everything that's shown in those shows? No, probably not, but you can still appreciate them. I love how Heartstopper shows softer sides of queer life than the ones I usually see on TV, and I love how this show also fulfills a function of retroactive healing, as someone wrote below. Great video as always!
This is my biggest frustration! It's the realest representation for me lmao, and seeing all these people lash out at it just reminds me how different I felt in high school :/
Also euphoria is highly centered around addiction not an LGBT show on its own.
Just to clarify.
exactly. it’s frustrating seeing people call this “unrealistic” when as a 16 year old girl, the majority of the teens i know have a similar experience as in heartstopper. it’s so annoying that any queer representation we get has to be either a tragedy or a hypersexualised romance. so many straight romances don’t include sexual themes, why can’t we also just get a cute fluffy gay romance?
"I'm a millennial and I love Heartstopper. For some people this is a realistic representation of their teen years, and for some it's not." -- for me it's because it was not. i couldn't have that as a teenager due to my catholic upbringing, and not as a young adult due to my catholic guilt. that's the reason why i loved the first season, made me nostalgic for something i never had, and that's why i've enjoyed the romance between the teachers.
@ville__ bait doesn't work here.
I think this debate can end very quickly: why are they so interested in seeing 2 14-year-olds having sex? I have always believed that these types of scenes are unnecessary, on netflix there are countless series and movies where they put men of 25 years or more to play 15-year-olds, and putting explicit sex scenes to fill out the poor plot
I don't think this can end the debate, especially since you don't need to show anything explicitly to portray an intimate scene. You can also have it fade to black etc. Like in Sex education, you had all kinds of awkwardness during sex and I don't think any of it was supposed to be salacious (although I don't really remember all that well).
Nick is 16 btw
@@dopex89but why does anything need to be shown at all? Let those kids be kids
Did you read the comment? Nothing has to be "shown." Fade to black etc. There's a difference between showing teenagers having sex and having teenagers acknowledge sex@@magpie8621
They are 16 and 15. And for me I think it’s too young, but the criticism of some extends to anyone even saying someone is handsome and then you’ll be accused of sexualizing an actor that’s 18-19. Both things can be true… some fans can be gross about wanting younger teens to have sex and some fans can gatekeep too extremely where they basically accuse older fans of being pedophiles. Both extremes are harmful for different reasons. I think people need to be a bit more respectful of different viewpoints regarding the show, the characters and the actors who play them.
The reason I love Heartstopper so much is because it shows a realistic, healthy teen relationship. Lots of teens don’t want to have sex, lots of teens just want to be happy with their partner. Not everything needs to be dark, constantly angsty, and sultry like in other teen shows. I can say that Heartstopper reminds me a lot of my friend groups and my life more than any other show ever will, and it’s very homey. I’m sick of teen shows showing what parents THINK teens are doing and not what many if not most teens are actually doing (which could be more like a mix of both!!) if that makes sense😅❤
it made me uncomfortable seeing so many people complaining about charlie and nick not having sex, claiming that it's not realistic and implying that it makes their relationship somehow less real or genuine because of it. sometimes i really don't understand what people see in sex to be so important, it's so dumb. great video btw, really liked it!
Thank you!
I always assumed that the reason Heartstopper was mostly chaste, was because that might be what Alice Oseman knew growing up. She might have been raised in that kind of environment, with her family, and her friends and so she was reflecting on what she knew and remembered. Also because she is asexual, so perhaps sex doesn't hit the same way for her and so she wrote it differently. I'm just guessing on that one. When I was a teen, I was pretty vanilla, and so were my friends. It wasn't until we grew older and went to college that we became rougher, explored, and experimented. Some people just mature at different speeds. Sex isn't everything, humans are diverse and layer people. Gay media doesn't owe the viewer sex. Nor for that matter does teenage media.
Alice has talked about this on social media... And you're partly correct the reason Alice has stated why there isn't any explicit sexual activity in the comics or in her novels is because she's aroace and she doesn't feel comfortable writing that kind of content. But she is okay vaguely referencing that it is happening. And doing like fade 2 black s essentially. So yeah it pretty much has everything to do with Alice's sexuality and her comfort on writing that kind of content. There are asexual people who are okay with writing sexual content. I know of an asexual writer in my own personal life who is okay with writing sexual content... Not every asexual person is and Alice clearly isn't one of those people and that's okay and valid. But yeah, I don't think it has anything to do with what Alice grew up watching as a kid... Or at least they have never stated that that is the reason why... the only thing Alice has officially stated on social media is them being uncomfortable with creating that kind of content because of their sexuality.
@@AnxietyRat Yeah that makes sense. What I mean about childhood, I mean I know nothing of her background. But I remember growing up watching mostly Jane Austen-type romances and musicals. Where it was all pretty much fade to black. My family was pretty Christian and I was exposed to that part of life later in life. So that can be one part of the teenage experience. Not every teenager is revving to drink, drugs, party, and have sex. And it makes sense that doesn't don't work for her and make her feel uncomfortable, she doesn't need to put them in her stories. Sometimes no sex in a story has anything to do with purity and simply because someone has no sex drive. And hopefully, in time more people will understand that.
I believe this too! I think a lot of authors write or at least get inspired by their own experiences. When that experience matches the majority - sexual - no one questions that. But when that experience is a minority - asexual or demi - is criticized as unrealistic. When really it doesn't have to be more complicated then a person telling a story about a less common way to grow up
@@AnxietyRat Oooh I am going to stop you right there. It actually annoys Alice A LOT when people link her sexuality with the way she writes sex. Idk where you read that she said that was the reason, quite curious to know.
People really need to stop linking aroace with some sort of automatic incomfort about sex. Alice writes YA ! That is why she is not gonna write graphic sexual stuff. But she's never shied away from writing about sex. The novella Nick and Charlie has a sex scene that for me is almost at the limit of how explicit it can be for a YA book. And the next volume of the comic is heavily focused on it. The reason it's not graphic is simply because this comic needs to be accessible by like 11 year olds.
@@n0emiette I swear I saw it on Instagram or Twitter or it might have been on the webtoons site in one of the descriptions bc ppl were hounding them about if the comic was going to get sexually explicit in the comments or maybe Tumblr but remember Alice saying that that was why they would NEVER go explicit with the sex scenes. They just did not want to make that kind of content because aroace...which is valid and I respect their choice to do that... But I swear to God I remember them saying this somewhere online. I remember it being in a post that also said like "hey guys you can enjoy the couple but please don't post super sexually explicit comments of things you want the characters to do because that's ALSO makes me uncomfortable." I don't remember exactly where it was said because it's been about two years since I saw it.
Yeah, in Nick and charlie novella it mentions them having sex, yeah, but it's a very vague scene... Yeah I'd agree with you that it probably pushes the limits of what Young adult fiction will allow. Which potentially could be why it is so vague...or it could be that that is Alice's limit. I don't think Alice has ever explicitly clarified EXACTLY where on the sex repulsed scale they fall...but it clear it's somewhere on it. 🤷♀️
Also for the record I DON'T immediately link asexuality with sex repulsion... There are plenty of AroAce people who are not sex replused. I have a friend IRL who is slightly sex repulsed but not completely they are certain less so than some people I've interacted with online. But sex repulsed or not they are still valid in their asexuality. Nothing in my previous comment indicates I think otherwise.
Sometimes folks come across like they don't know what they want. I see a lot of unhappiness and frustration. I'm certain that had Heartstopper S2 a lot of sex/sexual activity or substance abuse, it would be called out for being stereotypical by some. On the other hand, since there's none of that [its wholesome and candid] its considered to be unrealistic.
Katya Zamolodchikova said something on this matter recently. On a rather humorous video with Trixie Mattel, she says Heartstopper is retroactively healing a lot of us [queer milenials] of bad experiences from our teen days. Fetishism is also about living an alternative reality [through a story], one that offers something lacking in our own and I think that's something this show in particular feeds on positively.
I believe there should be stories that make us relate to a reality we wish we experienced.
It is helping to heal so many people, and in so many ways.
Katya said that. Trixie was giving the show shit the whole time.
I appreciated Katya's comment too that gen z was not their generation, where there was so much pressure put on them to have sex, and so while it felt unrealistic to their teenage experience, that didn't mean it was to the experiences of kids today.
@@syds8752 I felt some bad vibes from those drag queens. I can see why now.
@@asterismos5451 I’m in my 30s and quite a few of my close friends didn’t have sex until university. There was pressure but it’s not like everyone was actually having sex back then.
I'm a Gen X Heartstopper fan and it actually reminds me of the family programming we had on TV while I was growing up in the 1980s and early 1990s, teaching life lessons about how to handle issues and conflicts that come up in relationships and friendships and how to deal with more serious issues like dating abuse, bullying, and mental health issues, but much, much more queer. And it definitely is much closer to my own growing up experience as a bi+ transmasc non-binary person who was also nerdy and very, very single, yet it also represents the possibilities of what could have been in an ideal world if it had been safe to be out at the time. It is aspirational and educational, and yes, it has adorable couples and relatable characters, while also showing us experiences we basically NEVER see on the screen, like the bi+ experience (which season 2 just massively expands upon after the surprisingly good bi+ rep of season 1), the aro-ace experience, and the ways in which Elle and Tao navigate their burgeoning romance, along with the look we get of Darcy's homophobic, emotionally abusive home life. Yes, it is sweet and cute and wholesome, but it is also exploring so many issues with a depth we pretty much never see anywhere else, and in a way that is educational for younger audiences, modeling healthy communication and showing different ways of dealing with issues in their personal lives. I love the wholesomeness of Heartstopper, not because it is more sanitized or aimed at a straight/cis audience, but because it is unapologetically q u e e r, very clearly made by and for q u e e r people, but in a way that is instructional for a more general audience as well. It shows us Sarah Nelson assuming her son's heterosexuality and then later apologizing for saying or doing anything that made him feel like he couldn't come out to her. It shows us the importance to LGBTQ+ youth of having a safe haven with out and supportive teachers at school. It shows us different ways of standing up to homophobic bullies. And it shows us pure q u e e r joy. It is a beautiful show that I will never stop re-watching or singing the praises of. Also, no amount of sanitizing would make this acceptable to the folks who are all-in on the "groomer" narrative. This was not made for them. It was, very clearly and very queerly, made for us.
I'm nonbinary, Gen X, aroace, and grew up on Degrassi Junior High lol when I was in high school, I didn't have sex, didn't even come close to having sex! I didn't even have my first kiss until 18, didn't have sex until I was in my 20's. Other people in the comments can relate to my experience, and the experiences of the characters in Heartstopper. And I think it's totally okay to not have over-sexualized children in a TV show, and overly-sexualized 15 year olds is gross to me because they are literal children. But if that's what people want, then there are plenty of shows to check out!
@@SkyeID Absolutely. I didn't even have my first kiss until I was 18. It is perfectly normal for 15 and 16 year old kids to NOT be having sex, drinking, smoking, or doing drugs, and I think it is very appropriate to show teenagers just navigating life without all of that in the storyline. Especially LGBTQIA+ youth, who have quite enough issues to deal with at that age. It doesn't need to be Euphoria or Heartbreak High to be good teen representation.
As someone who was in a friend group that didn't drink or have sex in high school, Heartstopper felt soooo real and validating. Not everyone has sex in high school, and people aren't social outcasts if they don't. Not everyone drinks in high school. It's so refreshing to see a show that portrays a different side of high school that many people experience but is always shown as like severely uncool or being a "loser" if you didn't experience that. I know it's not on par with everyone's high school experience, but to me Heartstopper feels so real.
EXCELLENT! I am with you 100 percent. As an "older queer person" who didn't begin to explore sexual physicality until the age of 19 but who grew up in the US in the 80's where it was all about creating a gay subculture, I find how Heartstopper portrays its relationships extremely refreshing and for me, some of the most important queer representation ever made. By sidestepping the obsession with gay sex the show manages to focus more on the substance of the relationships between the characters and concentrate on a more human and emotional aspect of the story unfolding. It's liberating in the sense that it doesn't bow to the sterotype that all people, especially queer ones, are defined by their sex lives. For me it signals an important evolution in validating queer relationships as not being solely defined by who one is getting with sexually. I think there are many people like myself who have lacked this kind of representation for a long time. I remember being excited by some of the first unabashedly queer shows that came out like Queer as Folk and the like, but not being able fully connect because none of the characters even remotely seemed interested in the kinds of things I was or lived anywhere near a life like mine. I had struggled through the gay subculture looking for something more only to be told I was trying to be heteronormative and not embracing my gayness. I was someone who needed more than just physical attraction and sexual gratification in my life and that was tired of being told there was something wrong with me if I didn't adhere to the sterotypical bed hopping queer. I kept wondering how I had moved from a straight society telling me how I should live and love to a queer one attempting to do the same thing. For this reason I never really felt like I had a community. Now here comes Heartstopper that puts the focus on something else, on the love and life developments of queer characters not defined solely by a rabid need to jump into bed with everything that moves. Respect to those that want that kind of life but they are not the barometer for the whole of queer society. Lastly, I believe that the rise of shows like Heartstopper enables us to see, as queer people that we have OPTIONS and we can decide what makes us happy and that we are not alone. I am now in a 13 year relationship with someone 20 years my junior. I dated a man in his 40's when I was 19. I work in the performing arts so have cross generational friendships all the time so get to see a lot of different perspectives and opinions. No show is "realistic" in fact. Everything on stage or screen is a artistic depiction and we finally have one that puts an emphasis on something more than who we are having sex with and I am so here for it and believe it is so important as representation that each person has choices and the spectrum of those choices is broad and not restricted solely to being defined by our libido. I could go on for a long time about this but I'll stop it here as this has gotten really long- sorry!
I love the way you've described your feelings about Hearstopper and your experiences here. There's no need for the "S word" ♥
I vibe really strongly with this whole comment.
I get what you're saying about not looking for hook ups, but you make people who do want that sound very bad. We can let people do what they like without putting them down if you don't want to do that too.
I mentioned that in my post " Respect to those who want that kind of life...." My post is entirely about a group of people, like myself that haven't been considered much. If you see my post as putting someone else down I feel that is more in your reading and interpretation of what I wrote. My post is about affirming some views that haven't gotten much attention in the past and not about breaking down anyone in a group that has been considered the norm. @@AnnekeOosterink
And if I may add: For me the 'lack of sex' played a huge role in making me relate to the show. At 15 sex wasn't really on my mind, and even though I know it was for other people, even in my proximity, it wasn't really a big topic within my friend groups. It's really just now (at 21) that it's starting to come up in conversations for real. Fair, I am likely somewhere on the aroace spectrum, but most of my friends are not, and yet this giggly show is far more relatable than any other teen drama I've encountered. Perhaps glorified, yes, but relatably so.
I once heard someone saying something about teen shows really being written for grownups. That since it is usually grown ups writing them, the 'teens' are met with grownup problems and desires. Of course a lot of 15 year olds think about sex, but sometimes I wonder if we, as we grow up, forget all the other things that mattered, that were more present and important at 15. Before we were met with sexualisation wherever we turned. Because at 15 you are very much still a child.
Thank you for a very well executed video :)
Same!
heartstopper is a refreshing change of pace in an industry that constantly hypersexualises teenagers and hires adults to play them to make it seem okay. the way that Alice Oseman writes the sexual aspect of Nick and Charlie's relationship is the most healthy and realistic portrayal of teenage intimacy I have ever seen. I'm 16 years old and I'm really glad that we finally get this sort of representation.
I am a Gen X, bisexual, mother of 2 afab kids, with Master’s degrees in History & Gender Studies. I have also written a children's book about LGBTQ history. I watched both seasons of Hearstopper with my kids - 20 year old bisexual and 14 year old aro/ace - and as a parent, I felt comfortable doing that. The first three volumes of the graphic novels are rated as appropriate for age 11 and up - and I feel that a lot of the intention with the show is that it gives parents and kids an opening to talk about queerness and relationships. What a lot of adults are calling "sanitized" about the show is actually "age appropriate." So much of queer representation in media relies on negative tropes and stereotypes, like "bury your gays" or portraying queer existence as tragic and miserable. Heartstopper is a refreshing exception, especially now, when the political climate here in the US is so anti-LGBTQ. Is Hearstopper a bit of an idealistic, queer fairytale? Sure, but there's nothing wrong with that. Let younger queer kids see themselves represented in a positive way. Let straight kids see queer representation being normalized in media. Both professionally and as a parent, I am 100% here for it.
Maybe adults have grown up and forgotten but when you’re a teenager there is HUGE pressure to be sexually active. Losing your virginity is such a big deal and it puts a lot of pressure on kids because they feel like they will be left behind or uncool if they don’t have sex. That can also lead to people rushing into having sex with the first person who will agree, even when they’re not ready. I think it’s really refreshing to see kids who take it slow and want to feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable with their partners rather than rushing. Also making out on top of each other, love bites and cuddling, that shit is fun and super cute. I don’t see why it’s a big deal that the deed hasn’t been done yet. Charlie is only 15 and a victim of SA. Let them take their time.
I think that if the idea of “impurity” and “purity” were taken out completely and kids were just allowed to be kids and weren’t exposed to what they’re “supposed” to be then it would be seen as normal. Even in the articles and videos they’re calling the people in the show kids or teens. So shouldn’t they just act like that? Not all teens think about sex and if you do view them more as kids then they definitely shouldn’t be focusing on that aspect. Also they like just got into a real relationship and they’re first out gay relationship. Maybe they just want to take it slow because they’re virgins and scared. Which is perfectly normal for relationships around that age range I think
I agree, let them be kids. The main "unrealistic" portion of the show is how emotionally mature they are for their age, but I see it as a guide book ... and I have met really emotionally mature teens in real life, so it isn't unheard of. The friend group on HS reminds me of my friends from university. At that age, I found my fellow nerds and we were silly and supportive of each other. They were some of my closest friends.
Ppl who think that consent is the same as "purity propaganda" ... I think they really need help. SA is so common and we should be proud of younger generations for rejecting r*pe culture. That doesn't mean that they are "puritanical". Sheesh! What a weird thought!!
Exactly! Hopefully if more media like this is made, it can normalize something that actually is very normal, wanting to wait and being allowed to wait.
@@obviouslyqueer It is necessary to let ppl take their time. Without consent and truly respecting that, there is no intimacy - just abuse.
As a teenager who is not straight and is on the asexual and aromantic spectrum, I really appreciated how the show didn’t hyper sexualize anything. It was the first love story i was ever able to actually relate to and made me feel so validated for the first time in my life. I feel like Alice Oseman being an aro/ace person too changed the way i perceived the show entirely. I never understood people just going “you’re hot, let’s hook up,” which is what happens in a lot of teenage media these days. Watching the progression of their friendship filled me with so much joy and seemed a lot more like what a romantic relationship would like in my life if i were ever able to experience one. Not only that, but Isaac’s storyline this season made me feel so seen in a way that i never had before.
Great points! I laughed when you brought up the Tara and Darcy scene because that was exactly my thought. I really liked your point about the pressure, because I think that’s exactly it. (Vague comic spoilers) Sex *does* become a topic in Heartstopper, the story is just not sex-obsessed and introduces the topic more slowly than many other teen dramas. What’s interesting about it though is that the storyline does become a big deal (in the comics) and approaches it a lot more honestly than most of the show I watched growing up, with awkwardness and actual conversations about it (not just teenagers having unrealistically sexy, magical first times). Which makes me think about your point of it being from an aroace perspective - it’s not about stripping away desire and erasing those experiences, but just approaching it differently than we’re used to seeing in Hollywood. Taking that pressure off.
(Also, additional note to the critics - Charlie is 15. He’s 16 when they start having sex. That’s not puritanical, that’s just “I don’t want to write about a kid under the age of consent bonking.”)
Right! ✂️ And thank you!
Look at them, indirectly minimizing ace people because "if you don't have sex in a relationship, it's not real."
Yeah right! Throwing up at this at least once a day
You make some great points. As an even older queer (Gen X - gasp!) I can say that many of my peers LOVE Heartstopper because we are have had years of hypersexual media - great and super fun, but Heartstopper is such a departure from so much that has come before it. Imagine having this as an example as a teen of how queer can be vs the self-loathing closeted person who ends up unalived at the end of the movie. And that's the few times we saw queer people on screen at all. I'll take this thanks.
This show is not a documentary - it's fiction. It's no more representative of real teen life Euphoria or Riverdale. And it's important to have media reflect a range of experiences. To say the show is too sexless is to presume a standard sexual trajectory for everyone which is not the case. This will speak to queer youth who feel pressure to be sexually active and don't want to be (yes they exist).
As their relationship progresses, I think it will be interesting to see how the show handles discussions about sex, but I don't understand why some are in such a rush to see it. Plenty of other places to go if that's what you want to see.
People can watch Euphoria or Riverdale if they wanna see teenage characters having sex. (I'm Gen X too-double gasp!)
YES!! One of the reasons I love the show so much is because I see me and my friend group in it!! This idea that all older teens are all the same is really disheartening to me; I never see myself represented in other media that's aimed at teenagers, so heartstopper is so refreshing to me. It really annoys me that people treat all teenagers the same when me and many others see ourselves in the hearstopper cast. Having one popular "clean" LGBTQ+ TV show isn't going to sanitise all queer shows - especially considering that people seem to be so eager to sexualise it regardless.
Plus, there IS sex in heartstopper! In the webcomic, it's been one of the major themes in the recent story (which I'm fairly sure is far ahead of the the show but I haven't finished s2 yet so forgive me if I'm mistaken) so it's likely to come up if there are further instalments in the show. Alice has often talked about sex in her books in a healthy way, so I'm sick of people pretending that she treats it like a taboo subject. Her discussion of sex is open and healthy and it's, quite frankly, one of the best I've seen.
Agreed. And it's not even like heartstopper is saying "DON'T HAVE SEX IT IS BAD FOR YOU". They clearly just said "we want to do it, but in our own time and in our own termes" which I think is an awesome message.
In addition to how young they are, and in addition to how new Nick is to discovering his sexuality, they’ve only been dating for 3 months when Nick says he’s not ready for anything more than kissing. It’s ok to be horny and also to recognize that even though your body is telling you it’s ready, your brain is telling you it’s not ready. Not everyone has an intense emotional response to physical intimacy, but Nick and Charlie absolutely do, and they deserve to be allowed to go at their own pace. To imply that teenagers who are not having sex is because they are “well-behaved” and written to conform to a societal expectation of purity is to deny the idea that teenagers can be in touch with their own emotions and their own bodies and make these decisions for themselves without societal expectation steamrolling over their autonomy. Converse to the societal expectation to abstain from sex is the societal expectation that all teenagers are slaves to their hormones and can’t help but act on them. I applaud any show that allows characters of any age to self-reflect about what they’re feeling and when they’re actually ready and COMMUNICATE about it! Why is that unrealistic representation? If we acknowledge that gender identity lies on a spectrum and sexual orientation lies on a spectrum, why can’t we acknowledge that sexual readiness also lies on a spectrum?
By the way, I may be a woman, but the men I have dated lost their virginity (hand stuff, to keep it consistent with HS), at 18, 19, and 23. The boy I dated at 17 actually asked me to slow down, and we never went below the waist because HE wasn’t ready. After time passed, I realized I hadn’t been truly ready, either, and I am grateful he spoke up. It makes me crazy that people can’t imagine boys being able to or being desirous to postpone sexual intimacy until they feel emotionally ready, because in every group of people, there are a diversity of experiences, and it is realistic to represent people at any point on the spectrum.
As someone who both relates and is pretty similar to some of the cast it’s just really nice to see such a healthy and kind relationship, but it’s really disturbing how much people comparatively value sex over and how they want them to do it
I'm so sick of this whole "they should have fucked" mob. My boyfriend and I are almost the same age as the characters (I'm slightly older then Charlie), and we love it so much. We both have issues when it comes to intimacy duo to past trauma, almost every time we get queer characters it's sooo raunchy. With Heartstopper I felt for the first time like I could relate to a character that was supposed to represent my identity.
As a 17-year-old boy who is bisexual and not out publicly, I love heartstopper for being so “clean” I know that me and a lot of teen boys my age have lust and feel the urge to have sex but I personally don’t think sex is super important in relationships especially when first it’s starting out, I hate watching some queer shows like young royals not because I dislike it, because of all the partying, sex and drugs, I know some teens do all of those things but most of it I’m not interested in and seeing it makes me so uncomfortable to watch it and that’s why I love heartstopper, yes sex is something teens think about and it’s important for relationships to some extent but I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone just to start having sex in the first two weeks or less, I want someone who's fun to be around, someone I can talk to, someone who is just like a best friend but different, but better, I don't want some hook up partner who I only see in bed, I want to live my day to day life with them and that's what nick and Charlie have, their communicating and experiencing life together, the good parts and the bad and are being there for each other, I see myself a lot in nick and Charlie, not being out and struggling with my sexuality and the society pressures and with my own trauma from being abused and bullied so seeing them both go through the same thing as me together and getting through it makes me feel like I could also get through it and I guess if that makes me or the show “clean” for not wanting to focus on sex and drugs then fine say what you want but it’s not that we are saying it’s bad and it shouldn’t be in the media, we just don’t feel it’s as important as everyone makes it seem and not everyone wants to hook up after the first date. I don’t believe in saving myself until I’m married but I would prefer to wait around a year before having sex with my partner because our bond and relationship are more important to me and if I really wanted to just hook up with someone instead of having a long term relationship there are hundreds of apps to do that but that’s simply not what I want and I don’t understand why people don’t understand that sex isn’t everything to teenagers or to adults in general, it's just a small part of that kind of relationships. (Sorry if this is hard to read I suck at spelling and at grammar:/ )
Well I was in a relationship and didn't indulge until I was 22... So it's refreshing seeing young people just being young people without being hypersexualised like we're all doing it.
As an ace person, I totally understand Alice Oseman's storytelling style. The show is just the result of the perspective and experience of an aro-ace person. We first had the male gaze, we're starting to enjoy the female gaze and, for the first time, the aro-ace gaze has been represented in a mainstream show
Also, on a personal note, this is the first time in my whole life that I've been able to recognize my own experiences on the screen, and to feel seen and welcomed by a show. People saying that the show is immature and childish purely based on sex-less content makes me super mad: that's like saying aro-ace identities, experiencies and lifes are immature and childish and, therefore, not valid and unwanted
I love the fact that this series is not focusing on sex. For me the feelings and situations the characters experience are realistic. They are teenagers discovering love. Looking at each other, kissing and holding hands is already very intense when you are 15. I’m more than 40 yo but I reconnected to the teenager I was through this series and it moved me.
I also like other series that are sexier like Elite but Heartstopper moved me in a way that very few other tv shows ever did because it is pure, subtle and delicate. In a world saturated with sexuality I found it refreshing and beautiful.
As a teenager I can say that not everyone my age is ready for sex the minute they enter high school. Me and my friends like to talk about the things we read in our books, (for example my friend got the book Icebreaker) and we like to laugh and giggle about it because we can’t think of ourselves doing that kind of stuff right now. In the future we will, but now is not the time. Same for the characters in Heartstopper. Nick explicitly tells Charlie that he’s not ready, but one day he will be. To me that is such a wonderful display of a conversation that kids should be having.
“The majority is not like this, but the majority is constantly being portrayed” this resonated so hard. I can tell you my group of nerdy teen friends were absolutely this well-behaved. The odd drunken party, snogging, and one or two couples having sex - but after a long time of established relationship, not 2 months in to discovering your sexuality. Teasing went as far as “omg he fancies you!”. The most unrealistic part to me is how well they communicate - but wow how amazing to have this art (ART, not life) be a good portrayal of what that looks like. It’s also true that gen Z (in UK at least) is having less sex and drinking less alcohol than previous generations so what may be authentic for them is not authentic for my elder millennial peers.
I think people often make the mistake of conflating "sexual liberation" with the idea that people are supposed to have "more sex" when the whole point of sexual liberation is that people are allowed to choose wether or not to have sex, and if they want to, they should be able to choose how much, and with whom. For some people (ie ace, aro folk) the pressure to have sex can be just as taxing as the pressure not to, or to do it in very specific, heteronormative ways.
The whole point of sexual liberation is that we GET TO DECIDE
👏👏 yes! Amen!
I am millennial and absolutely looove Heartstopper! With so much crazy sex and peer pressure being on tv supposed to represent teens, I find the show very well rounded, healthy, and wholesome representation of general teenage lives. Because it is written by an Ace/Aro author, the storylines are able to develop without sexual pressure. Elle and Tao are so cute, my favorite!
I like how they portray Elle’s trans experience. Is it realistic? No. But it does model how it should/could be. I especially love Tao’s mom’s reactions. If it’s propaganda it’s not punching down.
Thank you! You eloquently conveyed all my sentiments. To be honest, I really don’t understand why this argument to turn TV series, movies, books, etc. into one dimension of queer representation. I am an older queer, and I don’t understand this generational inter-fighting.
When I came out, I devoured every queer movie, short films or anything that had a queer character or representation. For the most part I felt depressed and lacking hope. The storylines messaged to me that I would likely get AIDS, bullied, killed, I had to look like a model, I would end my life, sex must be casual and a central part of my queerness. Our traumas were always on exhibit, and I internalized that message.
As any human, we (queer people) are complex, multidimensional with good and bad qualities. We have queer people still being bashed and killed around the world and people are complaining about “Heartstopper” being too puritanical?
(Trigger warning) I am a survivor. I had no idea; I could have said NO or tell someone what our neighbor was doing to me in my very early teens. I blamed myself and my self-esteem was non-existent. Which unfortunately attracted a few Bens in my life. It took awhile to heal and to think I was worth something.
When I watch “Heartstopper”, I think of that boy. If he was watching that show, it would have given him enough tools to speak up. To understand consent, identify self-harm and toxic, abusive relationships. It would have showed him that he deserved to be treated with respect and what a supportive boyfriend /partner looks like. I think there is space where we can watch “Euphoria” and “Heartstopper” and learn.
Sorry for the very long comment and THANK YOU. I needed this!
Thank you so much for your comment! 💕 this is what representation is about, healing for the ones who need it and inspiration for the ones who can act differently!
This is your second video I have watched but you showed me a new whole world. Thank you. As a straight gen x woman I knew nothing about Heartstopper being problematic for some people, about MM culture, about gay vs lesbian film/series making differences, .... I have learnt so much. BTW, I found Heartstopper by accident and for me it was just another love story, cute, unproblematic, but I wish I had been so well spoken and able to set boundaries as well as they are at their age. And I am not talking about puritan culture but about personal one.
Thank YOU! this comment made me very glad, I'm so happy you enjoy what I do.
And 100% agree, vocalizing your boundaries and needs and not rushing in to something you're not sure of was so beautiful to see and I hope that can be an inspiration for a young generation.
As a gay woman on the ace spectrum, I didn’t have my first kiss until I was almost 21. I love seeing people in relationships not have such a heavy emphasis on sex but showing intimacy in other forms
Yes!!! This!!! Not everything has to be realistic to be good. Is High School Music realistic?? Of course not!!! Not in the relationship sense (oh my god teenagers who kiss maybe once in three movies 😳), not in the social life sense, not in the theatre world. Its supposed to be unrealistic. And because its part of the straight world that already has so many more varieties of representation it's still super popular.
its so weird to me that people think its unrealistic. this was probably the first time i watched a show that was more similar to my high school experience. I knew almost no one who was having sex when I was in HS and I get so confused when I watch High school shows where everyone is sneaking out, doing drugs, and having a lot of sex. None of these things had any significant influence in my 4 years of HS. My experience was so much more about grades, politics, and GRADES. And a lot of couples I knew werent having sex yet. Sure there were plenty rowdy people who were definitely doing all these things. But out of my class of 700...there were a LOT of us who really were that innocent. Especially at 14-16. IDK why thats hard for people to believe.
I think another thing that maybe not most, but many Gen Z people are realizing is that "hookup culture" for lack of a better term just isn't satisfying for them. Do we think it's immoral and that anyone who has hookups is evil or some shit? No, absolutely not. But trying for ourselves what we've seen as the "queer experience" from both popular media and from people older than us, it's often just not that great. It's commonplace to see older gay men complaining about Grindr hookups often being mediocre and unsatisfying. It's far from impossible to have good casual sex, but you have to sift through a lot of "meh" to get there, and is that really worth it? What might seem like a reversal of sexual liberation might not be an actual reversal - just a realization that while we're glad we *can* engage in casual sexual relationships, that doesn't mean that it's right for everyone nor that we should feel pressured to do it since everyone else is. Couple that with an epidemic of loneliness in young people, and it makes sense that people would have a renewed interest in long-term, serious relationships over short-term, more casual ones. And yeah, while plenty of teens have sex, plenty don't either, or at least not super frequently. I didn't until I was nearly 19, which is definitely above average even for my generation, but an average is just that - an average, meaning a lot of people fall both below and above it.
I think another important thing is patriarchal assumptions about how teenage boys "naturally" act. If this were a show with a straight couple, and the girl said she wasn't ready to have sex in the same situation Charlie did - I don't think there would be nearly as much backlash. It should be just as normalized for men to say no, that they're not ready yet, etc. when it comes to sex as it's been becoming for women. Despite what patriarchy might have conditioned people to think (even if just subconsciously), men and teenage boys are not sex-crazed beasts that simply can't control themselves because of their hormones. In fact, that notion is really harmful because on some level it removes people's conception of men having responsibility over their actions when it comes to sex. You can experience sexual desire and still say no if it's not right at a given moment.
And given Charlie not only has body image issues but was also sexually assaulted last season, and that Nick just figured out his sexuality two months prior, it makes total sense that they wouldn't be ready to have sex despite wanting to. Was that conversation a little too "squeaky clean" to be realistic? Yes, but that more than anything helped the show keep its age rating. Regardless, though, people glossing over Charlie being a recent victim of assault in this discourse is honestly both mindboggling and also pretty concerning - what message does that discourse send to teenage boys and even men in similar situations about them not yet wanting to have sex?
Love is not all about sex. This is a love story. It’s not smut. A show every family should watch
Exactly my point! Glad you agree
thank you for this.
There are teen who are not ready for sex, even teen boys, having such a kind representation of communication and consent is a way of taking that pressure off of them. to see a character you resonate with name their apprehension might help
many actual teens name that for themselves. this is a show a parent could watch with their queer kid, even younger ones. those don't exist. what a gift to those families and kids. We are only 3 months into Nick and Charlies relationship, things with change and develop, and I'm so excited to watch that happen!
Honestly even if the show is NOT realistic, it's modelling the right kinds of insights and communication and healthy coping and it's frankly educational. Sure, most teens won't be able to have that mature of a sex talk and consent like Nick and Charlie did. But this show is modelling that communication and how to do it. That representation is soo soo important. Because of this, more and more teens would LEARN how to have these communications and have these insights.
I'm a queer 40-year-old parent, and want to be able to share TV and movies with my kids that represent queer people as whole people, in ways that are appropriate for them. My daughter is 9, and I am thrilled to have Heartstopper - we will absolutely be watching it together in a couple of years, just like my Mom and I watched Dawson's Creek together when I was a teenager (and that was also pretty chaste in the first couple of seasons!). Sharing stories is such an important way for parents and adolescents to communicate about difficult subjects, and I'm beyond grateful to have this show to share with my kids.
This is a great example of damned if they do, damned if they don’t. People love to criticize and judge the sexualisation of teens or sex and lust in teen shows, but they’ll be just as quick to judge the absence of it. How does that make sense?
When I was a teenager I got into my first relationship when I was 15 about to be 16, and I don’t think I had sex with my partner at the time until we were both almost 17. I found the representation in heartstopper to be very realistic to my situation. Also Charlie was 14 when the show started. We saw his 15th birthday where they went bowling. I know some kids are sexually active that young, some of my friends were, but the majority I know weren’t having sex. Also about the show being cringey, I was very cringey when I was 15/16 in my first relationship, and I bet a lot of 15/16 year olds in relationships right now are cringey too. Let the kids be cringe
Like can we ALL PLEASE NORMALIZE that its OKAY NOT TO WANT OR HAVE S*X?!?!?!
I personally don’t dislike the lack of sexual content in Heartstopper, but I also don’t like the people who treat Heartstopper like it’s the best queer media *just because* it doesn’t have sexual content in it. I consider a lack of sex in any media to be a neutral thing. Sex, in and of itself, doesn’t inherently make media better or worse, it’s just up to personal preference whether someone enjoys consuming media with or without it.
People who say that Heartstopper is unrealistic because of it’s lack of sexual content annoy me because, well, they’re teenagers?? They’re literally 15 and 16, and even though Nick and Charlie are (very likely) sexually attracted to one another, doesn’t mean they need or want to act on that. There’s a difference between subconscious thoughts and conscious wants and desires.
But then, the people who say that Heartstopper is better because it’s “pure and wholesome” (aka: has no sexual content) bother me because that mindset is what can lead to censorship. It starts with people praising some media for being “more wholesome” and “more appropriate” and eventually it becomes a downwards spiral that prevents people from producing media that represents themselves and others. Like, in certain states in America (I’m British so, sorry if any of this is inaccurate) they’re banning books from schools and libraries about race, gender, sexuality, etc. and *that is censorship.* Infighting within our own community is only going to make matters worse.
What is wrong with people, they are 15 and 16. In Norway the average age of debut for boys are almost 18. I think it represents pretty much the UK as well. I think people have forgotten how it was when they were young!
I feel like some people forget this is based off a webtoon. Sex isn’t the easiest thing to get away with. And they aren’t going to grow in sex just for the heck of it.
People overlooking the fact that Alice Oseman is non binary and aroace is sad.... Hyper sexual teens (and adults) are over represented, even when nothing sexual is actually happing, it's still implied. Why would anyone want kids (the target audience for heartstopper) to see only bad things about them?? Why can't you offer a healthy alternative???
While Alice's sexuality might influence her writting, just like everyone's personal experiences influence the art we create (although i am not a fan of people linking someone being aroace to it being the reason they dont want to include sex), I think a lot of people miss the number 1 reason the show doesnt have sex (yet !) and that is the target audience. The cast and crew have talked about their surprise about how much adults loved the show because the show was originaly created for tweens and teens. The show needs to be watchable by an 11 yo (S1 was even rated +7 in France last year and +8 in Germany). And even when the topic of sex will be brought to the story, it will do like the comic and find a very good balance of not shying away from the subject while still making it still accessible for tweens. So to see adults complaining about this, and about the teens not being wild enough, that the show should have more edge, really feels like adults wanting to take away something that isnt made for them.
And about the teens not being realistic enough, I think there needs to be a big subject about how media influences teens' behavior, and the pressure they put on themselves. I did have a friend when I was a teen who watched so much hypersexualized supposidly teen medias that she really started to think that it was embarassing to arrive in highschool without ever having had sex and that had bad consequences. So yeah, the fact that Heartstopper shows that it is ok to not be ready even if you want to, and communicating that to your partner is absolutely fantastic and I'm delited some teens are gonna grow up with that in their head. And honestly, I watch a lot (and by a lot, i mean A LOT) of tv shows, and this is the first time a portrayal of teens has been that close to how my teen years were. So, unrealistic ? For them maybe, but not all of us.
Like you, I totally understand the fear behind those terrible takes. And it might be a surprise to them, but even Heartstopper (the comic cause we havent reached that part yet in the show) has been a victim of people trying to sanitize it on the topic of sex. There has been quite a few bad reactions when people realized the topic of sex was going to be adressed, acting like it was gross or even problematic. I think there is a mix of younger audiences confusing being young and not comfortable about sex with "i am uncomfortable so it's problematic", and conservatives ideas creeping into the community. But hitting on Heartstopper, a show for tweens and teens really is not it. And calling it a show for straight people or that cather to conservatives is just bullshit.
[24 y/o bisexual here]
as someone that lost their virginity around the age of 19, I gotta say that I, at no point, thought the show was unrealistic in that regard. The show also shows them both experimenting a little with like the neck kissing. I personally LOVED the scene of Nick and Charlie having "the talk" [about not being ready to have sex] because it shows how comfortable both of them are to be honest with each other, to actually say when you're not so sure about something, to voice your boundaries. Heartstopper has the potential to be a huge influence on how teenagers will communicate in their own (future) relationships - showing that you should be able to talk about important stuff like that with your partner
Your affirming analysis of the series presentation of a "near perfect" and "fantasy world" for LGBTQ+ teens reminded me of an insight that I have had for decades. I am 73 years of age, came out at 19 in '69 and fought on campus with the Gay Liberation Front. At 20, I met my partner who was 29 at the time and we were together for 33 wonderful years until his death of bone cancer in '03. During my career in education and psychology, I was consistently open about my life with colleagues, students and *was* 'that gay presence' in child/adolescent education and mental health systems who created/promoted diversity education programs and supported LGBTQ+ children/adolescents. I share this information to underscore the fact that, (as a growing up gay boomer) in my situation I was fortunate enough to *have* the desire and ability to fight back against the Heterosexism of our culture and lived and live a very happy life. I recognize that this was, unfortunately, not the case for many of my generation. Now, to my insight: Regardless of all that was positive in my youth and young adulthood, from the moment, during puberty, that I self-identified as gay, I was simultaneously bombarded by *this* Heterosexist message: You are gay because you want to have male/male sex. *This* is your "identity." But, through the decades, I have always asked myself the "What if" questions: What if your all-boys high school and the culture at large did *not* label you as abnormal, different and *solely* focused upon sex? What if you *had* had openly gay friends (similar to yourself) rather than fearful, closeted frightened and bullied boys? What if your crush on that boy, Peter, (perhaps himself gay) could have been expressed beyond the carefully constructed 'buddy' friendship? What if there *had* been openly gay teachers who could have supported you in the recognition that you were more than simply a being desiring sexual acts with males but a fully fleshed out individual? The answer is: I would *not* have been burdened with this overlay of viewing myself as *only* "complete" as a gay boy/man once I had male/male sex. And, during my teen years, I *did* receive this odd message and *did* sense that until I had male/male sex, I wasn't *truly* gay! A final personal life experience that first brought the recognition that none of this was accurate for me: When I met my guy in 1970 and we were falling in love at first sight, that night (all night) we were so enthralled that we were uninterested in having actual sex. For that one night, he and I were our "natural" selves: We went with our natural instincts and were obsessed with only kissing and immersing ourselves in each other. (P.S. We did have very hot sex the next night and for the next 33 years - but I think that you and other readers get my point.) :)
70-year-old boomer here who is obsessed with Heartstopper. It is the teenage years I never had - accepting, honest, loving. It fills me with joy. I know if I were 15 or 16 kissing another boy that much we would be doing a lot more that that, but I'm fine with Nick and Charlie being sexually innocent. Charlie was only 14 when he met Nick, that ought to be considered. The other thing I want to say is Heartstopper gave me the vocabulary to use regarding my first Crush - I just wanted to be around him all the time. I was very Charlie Spring at that age without the supportive family. Thank goodness for Heartstopper.
p.s. I subscribed.
Thank you 💕 Both for your lovely comment and the subscription!
I love how wholesome and healthy the relationships in this show are. I am exhausted, that all teens on tv look like mid 20 years old, go to the gym and look just perfect and always are overly sexualized. Its not realistic and not all teenagers are the same and there are teenagers who might wait. Also I love that people in that show have healthy conversations even when they fight it never gets toxic accept for ben, but even that doesn’t unroll like other toxic shows would have. Teenagers need more of healthy shows like that!
I grew up watching Disney channel so even if it is unrealistic, it’s a good feel show that highlights moments that feel like a beautiful fairy tale and that some of us did not experience! It’s a breath of fresh air to see such a pure love! Ppl really be mad because this isn’t the next euphoria
THANK YOU! I watched Verily’s video yesterday and it upset me to my core.
The thing about Verily’s video is that it implies that they are right. Assuming that they are right about every LGBTQ+ experience based solely on their own experience is ignorance to the core. I spent my entire childhood and young adult life feeling like an outcast in the gay community because I did not resonate with hookup culture, with drugs, and with partying every night. I feel like most media these days portrays the gay community through the lens of non-monogamy, hypersexuality, and deviancy (when compared to heteronormative relationships). Heartstopper has been some of the first LGBT content that I resonate with, and I’m grateful for it.
The fact that so many LGBT content creators are saying it’s not representative of the REAL gay culture or experience is concerning. It’s time to end the narrative that any one gay experience is more normal than another. If you don’t want a more heteronormative representation of gay relationships on your screen, then don’t watch. Go watch Queer as Folk, Euphoria, or any of the other more progressive representations. These are kids, young highschoolers, and the sex in the storyline is coming soon, not that it should matter.
heartstopper is honestly boring to me so i get where these people come from... but it's possible to accept that not everything is made for you. just because you prefer a show with more sex and drama doesn't mean heartstopper is bad for not including those things. i also think on the other side of the argument, the people praising heartstopper for being fluffy can do so without putting down darker narratives. we should have a big variety of representation including all sorts of genres! i think because of the lack of queer media, we tend to be overcritical about what we do get. which is very unproductive to representation overall
Heartstopper is such a good example of what we actually want to see as queer youth, a wholesome feel-good drama many of us can take for comfort. Not some oversexualized romance that features 25 year olds playing teenagers. I love that Heartstopper is sex-free, I don't care how "unrealistic" Heartstopper is, I just LOVE that I can watch something I can actually relate too and feel good about myself. And its not just about the love, Heartstopper explores so many themes and very real topics that so many other productions skip over, like mental health, bullying, family problems and much more. Heartstopper is everything i could ask for in a teen drama. 🍂
They haven't had sex yet on the show because at that point in the story they haven't had sex yet in the comic (which is the source material). It's not that hard to understand 😂
Also, why are we so obsessed with having teen gays having sex on TV/film? There's a big problem with gay men being perceived as hyper sexual people who are always horny all the time - so to me it's very refreshing seeing them being portrayed as wholesome teenagers who also value other things like friendship, education, their future, etc.
I do have to say, if these people saw a lack of sex in a heterosexual lead show, they wouldn't bat an eye or say it's awful representation of teen lives, in fact they probably wouldn't bring up the sex until it happened in the context of the actual show. Notice that they aren't up in arms about the straight couples not having sex, but they are pissed that the gays aren't.
*Spoilers for future seasons*
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The thing that kills me is that for readers of the webcomics that update like once a week to this day, we all know that Charlie and Nick have just reached the point where they do want to have sex and are dealing with the emotions and logistics of making that happen. The slow burn may not be realistic I guess but it suits the pacing and tone of this story
I’m really happy with how Oseman has handled it in the comics. Nick and Charlie both talk about emotional issues and they’re so respectful of each other’s consent. Idk if it’s realistic for 16-17 year olds to be that mature but it sets a good example for younger readers.
THANK. YOU. SERIOUSLY.
If any of these people bothered to look at the source material, they'd see it IS addressed, just not right out the gate like they seem to think it should've been.
It takes a couple years in the narrative, but the main characters are still in their late teens when they very much DO start, ehhhhhm, "fooling around".
I'm beeeeeeegging the naysayers to please, for the love of god, possess just a scrap of truly knowing what the hell they're talking about.
I found the video really interesting and I 100% agree that the perceived “lack” of explicit sexual content doesn’t provide a good reason to criticise Heartstopper as a show! Just seeing how many ace / demi / aro people in my online bubble feel represented by it is so nice.
At the same time I also found your analysis on why there is some backlash even from within the queer community extremely important!
I understand, that some queer people fear that a show like Heartstopper could just be the spoonful of sugar that makes puritan attempts that are actually out there go down which may contribute to actual attempts to ban certain groups at pride events, which is why they feel attacked. That people might go: “but you liked Heartstopper too - why do we need xyz at Pride?”
I don’t think Heartstopper is to blame though, but these actual attempts at excluding groups are. But for me as someone who really likes the series it means: should I ever interact with someone who comes at me like: “but Heartstopper was so sweet, so why do we need leather and kink and people in various states of undress at pride, they are just gross!” I’ll answer them: “just because you don’t need it and enjoyed Heartstopper doesn’t mean that opinion should be generalized - as the other way round. They don’t try to undress you so stop trying to redress them. Pride is diverse and we’re all part of the community.”
First, I'll just say that I love both your and verilybitchie's videos. I appreciate the way that you address differing opinions in a nuanced way and without demonizing the people whose points you are critiquing. I think that's a big problem in the queer discourse sphere at the moment.
I do think that the sanitization of queer media is a problem, and that verilybitchie makes a lot of great points about it in her video, and you both spoke to a major issue being the types of queerness and types of the individuals that are represented. I can also understand why she included heartstopper in the video, but I don't think heartstopper is necessarily the right target in the larger conversation about sanitization of queerness. Does everything in heartstopper resonate with me, an adult twice the age of some of the characters? No, of course not, because I'm an adult twice their age. But it does make me remember watching the shows on tv when I was that age and thinking oh, maybe I am not really queer, or maybe I'm not living queerness correctly, because I have never seen anything on tv that looks like what I want (not to mention, on another note of bad representation--surely I can't be a lesbian, because I don't want to end up miserable or dead.) I'm glad this show exists for teens who were like me.
I take more issue with things like a post I saw the other day about Red, White & Royal Blue insisting that a sex scene in it was so good because it was "not oversexualized" and "not even about sex" but rather about love which...wait a minute. Why can't something be about both sex and love at the same time? Separating gay sex from gay love as though they can't coexist and as though gay sex is usually completely devoid of love is a big problem. What's not a problem, in my opinion, is showing two young teens acknowledge that they are interested in sex but not ready for it. It annoys me that the article you cited seemed to entirely miss that conversation.
I'm looking forward to your video on slow burn! I read a lot of romance and have been complaining to a friend recently about that topic lately.
from a queer who has tried and failed to watch Heartstopper several times, i’m still so glad it exists because i know that even if i can’t find comfort in it, so many other queer people can
Also everyone ignoring how in the comic the topic *is going to be covered very soon* like...
Gen Z is growing up in a time with increased villification of queer people; I think its logical to want to say ''Actually thats not what queerness is; it can be so wholesome and come with all the beautiful feelings!'' while millenials grew up feeling like they needed to fight to say ''We can be queer in our own way, no matter how shocking to you, and that's just as valid.''
It's a reaction to the cycle of periods of queer persecution and relative acceptance that mark all our history. Its very much a generational issue because the positions taken are formed by the world you find when you're in the ''Lets see what it's like out here'' stage of life. Gen Z is this way in response to what they (we? I'm from 99, grey area) hear said about people like us
I love this. Thank you. I watch teen shows like Sex Education that delve into that aspect of the teenage experience. I love the sex positivity in that type of show. I find it interesting, thought provoking, and entertaining, but it’s not an experience that I ever had nor can I relate to it. Heartstopper is the fantasy that so many queer people wish they had been able to live. I can relate to the reactors that you showed clips of because HS made me cry a bit too. I gives me the opportunity to vicariously experience an adolescence that I never got a chance to have.
Also, I watched Verily Bitchy’s video essay, and it genuinely upset me. They seem to think that all bi people must be messy, chaotic, and hyper-sexual - no room for diverse personalities and desires. Nope, we must all be the messy, slutty bi stereotype. I really hated that video. 😩
(Edited for typos)
To the person who said that "they're all skinny," no. they're not. isaac has a rounder figure than the others, and nick is athletic because he plays rugby and has for a while. and yeah, charlie is skinny. because he has ANOREXIA. they don't need to be having sex for you to enjoy the show. there are more things to life than sex.
I really think this all just stems from people not seeing asexuality and aromanticism as valid. I follow the creator of heart stopper, and while I don’t watch the show myself, I know that before season 2 came out she had mentioned that it would be validating for aro ace people. Being aroace myself it really frustrates me that the rest of the queer community continues to minimize, invalidate, and erase our experiences, simply riding it off as “puritanical”. My experience is just as queer as anyone else’s in the community. My experience is not fundamentally “less political” or “less authentic” simply because it doesn’t fit your allonormative of queerness. If you want a more sexualized queer show you can literally watch any other queer show out there. But understand that us ace and aro folk don’t always have the same privilege. Thanks for starting this conversation. I hope that more people can realize just how rooted in ace-exclusion and erasure these criticisms are.
It doesn't need sex. I'm ao glad that have actual teens playing teen roles and you really don't want to watch teens having sex. Because if it did and it had things such as subatanxe abuse it would be hated on by the media but since it doesnt it's being judged as unrealistic and it does not make sense. There are too many negative queer hows and movies and for once it's nice to watch something comforting with relatable and helpful lessons.
I hate people calling out bad representation just because they themselves didn't identify with a character. Actually I don't like the idea of "reprezentation" in general. Fictional characters don't need to be a rep for everyone, people are not a monolith and just because 1 person cannot identify with the character doesn't mean no one else can.
Teen boy here (gay and demisexual for a bit of context). I believe that Heartstopper (and hopefully other similar media in the future) showing a world without sexual pressure is extremely important right now, not just for queer people. Our society places way too much emphasis on sex, I fully understand, that the average person has a high sex-drive (compared to me at least), but the way that the main characters handled the sexual part of their relationship is admirable. From what I've experienced, not having sex, or not enough sex is frowned upon. A big regret for me is how my first sexual experiences went for this reason. My first boyfriend really wanted us to have sex early on in our relationship (for me at least) I didn't feel quite ready but I also felt pressured not just by him, but by the whole world to start being sexually active, because that's what people are pushing all the time. So in the end I agreed to sleep with him multiple times, even tho I didn't really want to deep down. It took me quite some time to realize that that was very unhealthy and bad for me. I give a lot of credit to Heartstopper for helping me realize that my feelings about sex were valid and the fact that I didn't want to do it was perfectly fine. I agree that the world of Heartstopper isn't realistic but for crying out loud, what piece of popular media is? Heartstopper shows an idealistic world, where teens can figure out who they are and what they want with the necessary support. Our current world focuses wayyy too much on sex and it's hurting people. It's hurting asexuals for whom it's really difficult to figure out "what's wrong with them", it's hurting the people in relationships where they want to have less sex than their partners but feel pressured to comply anyways, and it's hurting teens like myself. Everyone has different desires regarding sex and that's perfectly fine in my opinion, and that's exactly why open conversation similiar to what Nick and Charlie had in the show should be encouraged. The moral of that scene isn't that you or teens shouldn't have sex, it's that you should be able to freely communacate with your partner about your desires or lack there of, without being pressured to do something you don't want to. Yes, teens (and people in general) are "naughtier", but people who are stuck up on that miss the WHOLE POINT OF THE SHOW. It's done in this very wholesome and family friendly way so that kids and young teens can watch it and start their dating life knowing how to be good and kind to their future partners, and know how someone might hurt them. If they put more explicit scenes in, they would miss the audience that needs to see it the most in my opinion. I believe the creators of the show helped a lot of people (myself very much included) avoid getting hurt or hurting others. In my opinion the main overarching moral of the show is that we're all very different in maany ways, but we can overcome that and strive for happiness if we can discuss our issues and try to be understanding with each other and NOT PUT PRESSURE ON PEOPLE.
thats a great video! i am a 30 year old gay guy from India! heartstopper for me is fantasy but it felt so healing from all the pains that i had to go through in my teens. longed for this sweet teen romance but instead was hiding and pretending to be a heterosexual and tried to change and control myself. hence this was definitely a beautiful escape for me. regarding the puritan propaganda yes it is out there a lot but i dont think this show has anything to do with that even if it does chuck it the show was great. regarding the sex scenes it is necessary for people to understand that its okay to stay virgin until you are ready.i have seen many have sex out of pressure or merely out of fomo. i lost my virginity at the age of 25 only as i was not ready before. thankfully i didnt fall for the traps before i was ready and my first experience was the best as iwas completely ready and into it. this show has normalised consent, denormalised bullying and most importantly glorified coming out which is important that someone should do when and how they want to. like charlie in the show i was outed by someone to my family but this show does bring the importance of that.
I feel this was one of the more realistic depictions of how we queer/straight teens function. Having coursework, having our firsts, being awkward, learning how to communicate, learning to balance friendships and relationships, common mental health issues we face, the way some of us get treated for being different.
Of course it’s a show requiring some drama but the entire depiction felt so close to home and so cohesive and maybe realistic even.
I feel the only not very realistic part is their profound emotional maturity or maybe it is and I haven’t found such people yet.
But I digress as we need to show queer love simply being love fleshed out, which this show clearly does. We see how Nick-Charlie, Tara-Darcy, Elle-Tao, Isaac ( since Aled ain’t here ) navigate through their identities, themselves and some simple and complex daily life problems.
I think that’s what makes this a comfortable watch for all of us because even though yeah they’re making us feel single but simultaneously they make us feel that we’re not alone. That probably establishing such interpersonal relationships with people and their healthy boundaries, the work, the trust put in to maintain them etc. is addressed very well both the webcomic and the series.
There are quite some significant changes, but none of them felt out of place. They seemed to fit really well.
Yeah I never really got this criticism, not every teen is having sex. I know that it wasn't like this for me growing up and even me now in college. I'm just the quiet type.
So this show was refreshing in general compared to all other teen shows. It isn't inherently bad, but it is pretty oversaturated in media at this point.