It's sad because these things seem ridiculous, but to the believers of Mormonism, it's all fact. It took me having to leave the church to see what a con it actually was.
***** Did you even watch the video? Dawkins bought up just a few points why it is ridiculous. Native Americans did *not* come from Israel, they came from Siberia across the Berring Straight tens of thousands of years ago (that's why the Book of Mormon intro was changed in 2007). Joseph Smith lost 116 pages of the book of Lehi when Lucy Harris hid them to see if he could write it all again the exact same way. He couldn't write it, so he started again with the book of Nephi instead. There is so much falsifiable claims, but there's a couple for you.
***** 2 Nephi 1:9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever. Sorry, the book does say they were alone, kept from all other nations and possess the land unto themselves.
***** You can't tell Frank he misunderstands the scripture when it's entirely possible you can misunderstand it, too. The only person who can fully understand what this means is the person who wrote it to begin with. So, you know, Joseph Smith.
Gyges Lyceum if youd like to know what i think is most ridiculous about it, it's gotta be the magical onsie you all wear under your clothes. hahaha! also the cash for Christ system is pretty bad imo
+TooLooze To be fair to other religions (and I think I'm being generous on this point) there is little to compare with the blatant avarice of $cientology. It's also quite unusual amongst religions in that it was invented only a few decades ago. I just find it curious that the Big Four tend not to mention $cientology in their respective critiques of irrational belief systems. Are they worried about a likely litigious response from Hubbard's flock?
You people that bash mormons dont understand. You see, joseph smith came to me in a dream and said unto me "lol lyk im jk trolololol" and all i could do was bow down and say "gr8 b8 m8, i r8 8/8" allah bless joseph smith, arguably the most innovative trolls of all time
He did not plagiarize from the bible. You can just tell that but reading the Book of Mormon that it's true. It was reformed Egyptian or something that would be considered reformed Egyptian. There were too tablets. They weighed around 45 lbs.
Richard Holmes He did plagiarize the Bible. The man was a convicted charlatan. He spent his entire life tricking people. Historians and language experts have laughed off the stupidity of Mormon claims. There are no shiny rocks from Mormon stories. If you have evidence proving otherwise, give it over. Otherwise it's a ridiculous, unsubstantiated myth.
@Who let the virus out? Woof woof woofhan nah hes saying it was always annoying being a minority, but its nice to have an intellectual explain the idiocracy
This is why I love the English, you look at their conservatives in England how grown up there are, there are for Gay rights, Equal pay, Science, Education and progress and you look at our conservatives here in the states, I mean all I have to say is Sarah Palin and the Tea party
Why specifically the Conservatives and not any other parties? I really wouldn't say the Conservatives are for all that... Most are for gay rights, yes for equal pay but the Conservatives especially sure like to get the rich richer, but an obvious yes to science. I would still never vote for any Conservative scum.
Kerry Paulazzo the conservative media is basically representing for conservatives which is why some people generalize because they represent conservs.. And they are hugely known to go against gay rights.. Against equal pay and enforce religion to little kids so they can be indoctrinated.. And theres massive amount of video/audio proof of them agreeing on those..
Kerry Paulazzo Fair enough, the Majority of England wouldn't vote for any Labour twats either, that's for Scotland to vote for but in a few hours your precious labour will never get in power again once Scotland's gone! :)
The amount of democrats who are creationist vs republicans in the USA isn't appreciably different, it is about 45% to 55% according to one poll I looked at. So in what sense are conservatives anti science and democrats are not?
My parents took me to church as a kid, a Mormon church! Baptised at 8yrs old! Thank god we had science at school and I was a curious little bastard lol I'd still be brainwashed now! I learnt Occam's razor early and now that's just how I think - I question everything!
Good man, your brain is working. Don't be too quick to thank Jupiter, Amon Ra, Mars, Jehovah, Allah... which god are you actually thanking? And how do you know it exists?
@Jeff's Experiments Uh, say what? You said ''brainwashed''! That's from the anti-Mormons, why are you listening to them? They are a mixture of anti-Mormon Christians, atheists, and possibly others. Not a damned one of them are any good. I don't think Occam's razor would be something you should even have the mere thought of here to do with Mormonism. That anti-Mormon crap of ''brainwashed'' has now been changed to ''under mind control''. Why? Because you'd have to be pretty stupid to believe that the Mormons are brainwashed once you really stop and think about it. The anti-Mormon Christians were too slow to see this though after they said it, I seen it before they did! I then noticed that that's when (somewhere around 2013, maybe earlier) the anti-Mormons, as a Way as to not admit defeat, changed it from saying ''Brainwashed'' into saying ''Under mind control'' to cover up for HOW STUPID it is to say ''Brainwashed''.
Again, I wouldn't suggest one listen to any of that anti-Mormon crowd's spew. I wouldn't listen to the two on the above video. Because who are they to say how YOU CAN THINK? Are we all too stupid out there to investigate the Mormon faith (Jesus Christ) on our own? Who are the anti-Mormons and the two atheists on the above video, that is? They're all talk. I don't lose debates to anti-Mormons and atheists. The anti-Mormons and the two atheists on the above video are all talk. I suppose if you go to the Mormon church or not is your business, but throw out all anti-Mormonism. Throw out what the two atheists on the above video say too. That way we've kind of got a basic picture on all of this. By the way, the anti-Book of Abraham information (books, websites, You Tube videos) was debunked in 2014. The anti-Mormons when coming to find out generally shut up about it, wont admit it. Some actually have TRIED to argue, but they soon realize that the anti-Book of Abraham info has been soundly debunked. This will continue on I believe.
“Mormons invented themselves just as other religious and ethnic groups invented themselves. But Mormons did so in such a singularly impressive way that we will probably always remain baffled as to how exactly it happened.” ― Laurence Moore
Good for you. You are not responsible for the sins of your parents. You are only responsible for yourself. Having said that I hope that you can still love your parents and be loved by them. It would be a shame if religion could destroy that.
Many Americans are whining about the job Obama has done but this is ultimately why I voted for him a 2nd time. Did I want to give a Mormon a shot (I am a former Mormon) and possibly indoctrinate the world with his buffoonery or see what Obama was really capable of? I still support my vote because no matter how much people hate Obama I firmly believe in him far more than I could Romney.
***** From another one of your posts: "I hope you realize this, because ultimately, bigotry hurts bigots the most." And with a post like this, you certainly are the authority on bigotry. It's not surprising how cowards like yourself attempt to deny your own bigotry by actually resorting to it...and THEN actually play the role of the victim and/or justify it through an archaic belief structure. And what exactly are YOUR science credentials?
***** You would be run by a Mormon that swore an oath in the Mormon temple to give *all* his time, talents and money to the Mormon cult. Don't be fooled by Mittens. He is a natural con man and bad person.
***** I agree. Honestly, I didn't want to see what Obama was capable of. Also, if you can't show people your capabilities in the first 4 years, you should probably not be president.
2 Nephi 9:28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. 29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God. 30 But wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor, and they persecute the meek, and their hearts are upon their treasures; wherefore, their treasure is their god. And behold, their treasure shall perish with them also.
Paul Renfrew you are conflating separation of church and state with popular opinion. I could also ask you if you have ever seen or heard of a Muslim or Hindu presidential candidate. There is no law that gives preferential treatment for one belief over another. Just because the majority of the population happens to be Christian and and is human Nature to lean to the group you identify with, does not mean the the government requires a religious affiliation. Because everyone in this country can vote for what they feel the greatest majority is favored. If an atheists wishes to run for any political office it is not the LAW that would stop them, it is the vote of the people. Those are two totally separate issues.
"Mormons invented themselves just as other religious and ethnic groups invented themselves. But Mormons did so in such a singularly impressive way that we will probably always remain baffled as to how exactly it happened." ― Laurence Moore
I was raised on the belief on these invisible plates, the ones that were translated to 17th English. And yes, JS was convicted in 1826. I've since wised up.
Poor Mormons :-( They'll all go to hell, because they reject Tom Cruise. The greatest god an spare time actor. Scientology is the religion of truth. May Tom Cruise bless all of you people and lead you to the right path.
"There is a day to come which will reverse the confident judgments of men. In that day...[t]he wise of the world will be fools, and the fools in this world wise. The mad in the world will be the heirs of a better." "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
I haven't seen the whole video, so for those who have seen the entire video can anyone tell me what Dawkins and Krauss were talking about when Dawkins referred to the 'hypothetical doctor and the astronomer'?
Being an atheist, I like Dawkins and I understand the importance of his fight. But watching that clip made me uneasy because it is too easy to ridicule Mormon beliefs. I would be reluctant to do it after seeing a fascinating PBS four hours documentary about the history of that "religion". And I began to like it because of the values it promotes. We can agree that most Mormons are very decent people and I think that mormonism is all in all a very positive force in America.
I went to a Mormon church about 2 years ago to accompany a friend to a Sunday morning service. The first thing I noticed was that all the men were wearing white shirts and black pants. The second thing I noticed was that people from the congregation would occasionally take turns going up to the podium and relaying some personal story. Some woman told a story about how she was adopted. Then we were told to turn to a page in some book. It was something about a "mother" I don't really remember the context. I was adopted so immediately I could relate, and it made me think of my own mother who had passed a few years earlier. Immediately I was touched, almost cried. The third thing I noticed was that there were no priests. I liked that. Later on in the hallway I was introduced to some of the other congregants by my friend. I was surprised to learn that there is no New Testament in the Book of Mormon. silly me. They don't need one. They have Joseph Smith. I don't believe in God but I will say this about the Mormon people that I met that day. They were some of the nicest people I've ever met. Once a month or so two of them would come on bicycles to where I live to see this person or that person. In the beginning I sat in on the sessions. They got boring after a while so these days I just wave hello. Does religion have any positive qualities or redeeming value? Strict atheists say no, but I break camp with them on this particular topic. It was a positive experience for me that day because I was able to purge pent-up psychic energy, and feel better afterwards. for me, it had nothing to do with Jesus or religion in general. It had to do with having a positive emotional experience in the company of other people. I do see some value in organized religion, especially when people can derive comfort from its guidance. If you think of it as a form of group therapy and not a "church" of sorts, I would say there is something to be gained.
Well organized religion is never good, if people stopped believing in god it seems you could still get what you want by going to actual group therapy rather than indoctrinated people whom a lot of their good will comes from the fear of death and the afterlife. What makes them nice isn't their religion but rather what they are taught as children. You don't need to be religious to teach children kindness and empathy.
"They were some of the nicest people I've ever met. Once a month or so two of them would come on bicycles to where I live to see this person or that person." So? Their absurd beliefs make them do that, so when you don't have their absurd beliefs you don't "come on bicycles to where I live to see this person or that person"? Is that your point? What's your point? The video talks about believing in absurdities, nonsense, and taking it for real, not about how polite or compassionate they are towards others.
Illusions my friend. When your brainwashed you don’t know any better just what’s going on in there own bubble. No religion for me it’s a relationship with the almighty creator.
What you said about Mormons being nice to you - it's so-called love bombing. Typical to all-new Christian denominations until you submit to the religion. After that everybody lives their own lives - nice, not nice, boring, busy, friends, not friends, etc. But if you dare to leave the religion - you most likely will be shunned and you will get the opposite of what is "love bombing".
I was lucky to go all the way in school (science, logic, philosophy, natural and world history, critical thinking, physics, etc.) -- this was my "education in facts." Then after a long successful career in the medical field, fortunately, I've had time recently to do a lot of self-study and reading -- which was my "de-education in faith." But finally, in the last few days, I came to the definitive conclusion that *not only are the Abrahamic monotheistic religions and Mormonism madness, but they are downright flamboyantly insane.*
i was 11 years old when mormons tried to convert me to their belief system and i was like ive heard of moses abraham and even solomon and david and even christ and samson, job and other s but then they said their prophet joseph smith and i was like who..who....who the hell is joseph smith
He was just another snake oil salesman for the ignorant to follow. There have been many. But the more civilizations become educated, the less chance for another false "god" to be created. Smith might have been be the last person to pull off such a farce.
The great thing about this is if you believe and you are right then all is good. If you believe and you are wrong - it won't matter. If you don't believe and you are wrong, then you are in very serious trouble. Dawkin's popularity is based on his brilliant ability to ridicule and belittle. I don't pay much attention to people who feel they can debate with snide, populist remarks that have little basis in fact or real truth. I watch this stuff and it verifies my belief. Thanks for uploading this.
***** Just thought it was interesting how one by the name of James H Madole gathered from hinduism and Aryanism and found that the Aryans are a race of antiquity and come from the garden of Eden north America!
"the garden of Eden in Missouri" Dawkins also tweeted on 9/7/02, "... obvious fake... Garden of Eden was in Missouri? ..." But Dawkins believes there was no Garden of Eden anywhere! So it is, quite literally, intellectually dishonest of him to bring Missouri up at all. That's not even the only time he was intellectually dishonest in this clip. He personally thinks Kennedy's religious beliefs were absurdly laughable and has said to other atheists at a rally, "Religion is not off the table," but he pretends here that Kennedy arguing that religion was off the table was "laudable" in order to do what... hopefully make Romney look bad? That's a political agenda, not an intellectually honest look at comparative religion.
I was raised Mormon. Really nice people. Hardly ever see corruption and they are really sincere people. Not to mention Mormons actually practice what they preach, most other churches/ religions don't.
Its a hilarious play, but I think that the utah culture has changed enough to ask for a few revisions. I wonder if they'll add anything or keep it the way it is...
I could find no reference for Edward Thompson. Send a link. I'd love to see this copper axe and gold plates. This wasn't something I could quickly verify.
Note to A/V crews in general, when you have 2 panelists next to each other, put the mic on the side of the face that will NOT be brushing up against fabric of the clothing as they speak to each other.
Catholicism and Mormonism are equally ‘barking mad’. He rightly ridicules Romney, but lets Kennedy off the hook-why, because being a Democrat makes the holding of ‘barking mad’ ideas less ridiculous?
Ah, yes...faith. Represses all sense, all logic, all reason, and all arguments. “It doesn't matter that you've proven it wrong, we've felt it in our soul that these words are true". The soul, of course is not real, just a concept that has its roots in our brain. Apparently, it represses the rest of the brain. If I say that I've felt that Winnie the Pooh is the evil overlord of the galaxy, I'd be looked at like I was a lunatic, even though it is more probable than Mormonism that, like Dawkins says, comes from a convicted con man. "Winnie the Pooh - the malevolent supernatural being" is more like ordinary Christianity - as far as probability goes.
Faith doesn't necessarily repress logic, reason, or discourse. Faith doesn't mean I have no evidence to believe what I believe. That I have faith means that I believe something to be true because it makes sense knowing what I currently know. The problem with what you're saying is that it's a blatant straw man. No one has disproven God or disproven the Bible or the Book of Mormon. Some people read into them and choose not to believe, others choose to believe. But the problem is that faith is necessary no matter what we believe, whether we believe in Jesus or Allah or Buddha or Krishna or the LDS Church or the Hebrew Prophets or Science or Mathematics or any other group or character or worldview. To say that because you believe in science, not faith and religion is an absurd comment. Max Planck, a revolutionary theoretical physicist, has said "Anybody who has been seriously engaged in scientific work of any kind realizes that over the entrance to the gates of the temple of science are written the words: Ye must have faith. It is a quality which the scientist cannot dispense with."
NjwillForever Proof is the responsibility of the claimant. It doesn't matter that no one has disproven religion, just that no one has proven it. Just like no one has disproven the evil overlord Pooh Bear. You don't say "Guilty until proven innocent", you say "Innocent until proven guilty". When there's no proof, it is all faith. I didn't write a word about science in that post, I just wrote about religion.
Mister Anthropy I was in general responding to the ideas which I see as common among people who like to bash religion. I was also in general saying that even something which most people think of as completely fact, logic, and reason-namely, science-requires faith. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine you don't necessarily believe any religion because there is no absolute proof that any of them are true. That viewpoint of sheer agnosticism requires no growth and in reality requires evidence for itself. I am not here attempting to prove my religious belief to you, I am simply saying that all things require faith. Agnosticism requires a faith and religion requires a faith. But the problem remains that you said that we believe something despite it being disproven. All I said was that it hasn't been disproven. We can still use logic and reason-after all they are two of our God-given gifts-but we can use them in conjunction with our faith, no matter where that faith may lie.
NjwillForever I view religion as imposing and destructive, and I think it is overwhelmingly probable that it is false. But yes, I can not know for certain. However, I see no difference between it and fiction in general, and I can not know that those tales are untrue either. If some group should start believing that they were wizards, I couldn't have disproved them, but I would oppose them when they started arguing for the annihilation of muggles.
Mister Anthropy I don't see the general destruction. I know that some people will abuse what their powers and intentionally harm others (this has been seen among Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, and Atheists, among countless others) but this is not a phenomenon which knows any restrictions to a certain group. So it's hard to say it's religion which actually causes this, and more that it's simply the fact that human nature can be pretty shitty at times. But seeing the good that religion can do in peoples' lives and communities, it's hard to say that the bad necessarily outweighs the good.
I just love this. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints i say the writings on the plates were not taken. As hysterical as it seems hardly no one is willing to read them. Im so happy to have so many people attrack attention to the ludicrous of not be willing to find out if the is a God and whether or not he loves you. Oh, please dont ever stop making attacks on the other testifier of Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon, please dont stop.
I was a member 30 years. Do you think that he is that ignorant? Do you think that he has never read at least part of the Book of Mormon? The church is not true. The sooner you find out the better. Please believe me when I say that I know with every fibre of my being that the church is a false religion.
wow, no respect for others beliefs and opinions. Is Dawkins trying to make the world a better place or just cause some stirring in the world? All he's doing is tearing others down. What a great way to contribute to society eh?
Obviously absurd opinions and beliefs do not deserve respect. What better way to contribute to society then to destroy willful ignorance and obvious cons?
Joseph Scott In all fairness, official Mormon beliefs are pretty damn silly, even by religious standards. So silly, in fact, that they are not even taught in Mormon seminaries. The only way to find out what the Mormon Church ACTUALLY believes in, is to *leave* the Mormon Church.... (and no, I am not kidding!)
effyleven "official Mormon beliefs are pretty damn silly, even by religious standards" I don't know why you're bringing up "religious standards," but religious beliefs of all denominations are routinely obviously pretend by my standards. Are religious beliefs of all denominations routinely obviously pretend by your standards?
Joseph Scott I'm sorry, Joe. I didn't think there was anything particularly tricky to understand about what I wrote. Let me clarify. I feel most religious beliefs are fairy tales, not born out in reality. The power of prayer, for instance, has been demonstrated to have absolutely no effect whatsoever. However, even by the standards of people who accept the power of prayer, Mormon beliefs, notably the "founding" ones, are seen to be especially inane and ridiculous, more unbelievable even than talking snakes. But then, Mormonism was initiated by a known con-artist leeching on people even less bright than he was. Therefore, Mormonism may be regarded as religion for the educationally sub-normal. Does that make my position clear?
If you can believe in God and prophets, then it is not hard to believe that Joseph Smith was called by God to be a prophet and was given the revelation to translate the Book of Mormon. He was a righteous man and it was prophesied back then that the world would speak good and evil of his name forever. So, this is an example of fulfilled prophesy.
if a person is somewhat famous everyone will speak good and evil about that person be it Joseph Smith, Britney Spears or president Lincon, its just comom sense that that will happen, it doesnt make it a fulfilled prophesy. also, im a reasonable person so i dont believe in god and much less in that whole mormon story, so your argument "well if you believe in something ridiculous then it is not hard to believe in something even more ridiculous" just shoot it self in the foot. you have no argument your just spewing nonsense from the very first word your coment was doomed to be ridiculous
You're twisting my words. I did not say that it was ridiculous to believe in God and prophets; I was saying that if you have the faith to believe in God and prophets, then it should not be too hard to have faith in a modern prophet. The prophesy mentioned about Joseph Smith was made by an angel of the Lord before Joseph had any fame at all. So, your argument does not stand. The prophesy was made years before Joseph translated the Book of Mormon and organized the church. In addition, not all famous people are spoken badly about, so you can't prove your point with an over-generalization.
i was not twisting your words, it was the same phrase but i should changed god and mormon to ridiculous, because thats exactly how it sounds to me. its the same argument if you say "if you can believe in santa claus than its not hard to believe in mormons" oh and yes, a prophesy made by an angel sounds more like to be truth then a man that said it years ago. you know julios verme talked about rockets to the moon and subamrines way before their time, it doesnt make it prophesy
Reptile Pope what is it in my comment that would make you think i believe in that nonsense? i mean even if you truly believe in santa claus that still doesnt mean you can believe in the mormons, you may take that from my comment, or not.
Hi, I have a question about the lds church... I had lessons for months with missionaries (elders) some time ago, and I thought that eternal family is something very nice, but I stopped because the church had polygamy in the past, the missionaries (elders) told me it happened in the past, not any more... I now searched wikipedia about the current prophet/president of the church who is Russell M. Nelson, and I noticed that Russell M. Nelson was married to Dantzel White who is now dead, but Russell M. Nelson is now married to Wendy L. Watson... my question is: Will Russell M. Nelson have as wife Dantzel White or Wendy L. Watson after this life in the celestial kingdom? Or will Russell M. Nelson have both wives Dantzel White and Wendy L. Watson in the celestial kingdom? if Russell M. Nelson will have these 2 wives after death in the celestial kingdom, why did the missionaries (elders) told me that polygamy does not exist anymore?
He would be “sealed”/married to both women for all eternity. Here’s how it goes. In the late 1809’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints gave up the “legal” right to polygamy in order to become a state and join the United States of America. It was proclimated by the church leadership and is the Mormon scriptures. HOWEVER…they did NOT stop the Temple ceremonies to allow one man to be sealed to multiple women…especially if the woman is not married/“sealed” to a worthy priesthood holding male. It is very important to note that the Mormons have multiple levels of Heaven and the only way for a woman to reach the highest level of Heaven is to be “sealed” to a worthy, priesthood holding man because it’s a very patriarchal society. For example, personally, I was a worthy, tithe paying members the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints and “sealed” to my wife for time and all eternity in the Salt Lake Temple here in Utah…except, I’ve left the church and am now an atheist. So..,if my wife wants to get into the highest level of Mormon Heaven, she needs to “temple-divorce” and be sealed to a worthy male member. (Luckily, she’s a strong independent woman and came to realize it was crap) Is this common in today’s day and age? I can’t imagine. But it can happen. Does that mean Rusty Neksen had for unlawful carnal knowledge (F.U.C.K.) of that other woman…I don’t know. But it’s a loophole so the women can get into the highest level of Heaven because of a patriarchal society… I hope this made sense. I may not get a notification if you respond, but I’ll try to come back if you have more questions. Cheers.
PS; because I may not have explained this… In mainstream Mormonism, a legal, state sanctioned marriage only lasts until death. But to be “sealed” for time and eternity in a religious sense, is to last an eternity. But once again, a woman can only get into the highest level of Heaven if they are sealed to a worthy man.
@@markandersson5453 No problem. As to why the missionaries told you polygamy does not exists anymore…I don’t know. But I assume it’s just an indoctrination and image thing. However, they’re just kids so it isn’t surprising they couldn’t answer your question.
WHAT I WOULDN’T GIVE TO GET THE CHANCE TO ATTEND A TALK LIKE THIS! Maybe before I die, I may get the chance to actually meet my heroes. Probably not, but shit does the thought ever keep me going.
Let me get this straight, we have someone who believes that this complex world could be formed without an supreme creator, and he thinks that angels visiting someone is crazy? How many people here believe that an explosion in a book shop could ever create a dictionary? Even though he says I'm "barking mad", I know that what I believe is true, because I have had many wonderful experiences that have brought me peace and joy, and have confirmed my faith.
I think much of the problem is that many people haven't been able to reconcile advances in science with their religious beliefs and still follow the ideology of Social Darwinism. While Darwin's work still provides a framework, today, science has shown that all variations of DNA are preexisting and quantum mechanics identifies light in wave lengths with an index or archetypal pattern (Fourier waves) This shows us that everything evolves from a predefined plan not into higher forms of life.
As someone who was a hippy kid from Humboldt county CA and was forced to move to SLC in when I was 12 in 1980 and got stuck there for 18 years, the LDS church has a huge amount to do with how vehement my Atheism and my distrust and disgust at religious entities and practices are. In a country where there's, ostensibly, a separation of church and state...Utah does not really have that, and if you want to learn what it's like to live under a theocracy...even one as denuded as the Mormons are, then moving to Utah is the way to experience that. I've seen and experienced things while I was living there that have helped to instill a deep and abiding hatred for the gullibility and stupidity of the religious and the the danger implied in their existence. The Mormons, Muslims and Catholics all see their religions as political entities and their beliefs should be stomped on with both feet constantly until they are forgotten. My 2c.
Pale's quotes continued: "Either the types of artifacts mentioned in the book of mormon are present.. or they are not. And they are not. (he cites the ever shrinking list of “never founds” to try to prove this false statement, I’ll discuss that in reply to this comment below& above: )
More quotes "This relative absence of haplogroup X2 in Asia is one of the major factors causing the current rethinking of the peopling of the Americas. However, the New World haplogroup X2a is as different from any of the Old World X2b, X2c, X2d, X2e, and X2f lineages as they are from each other, indicating an early origin "likely at the very beginning of their expansion and spread from the Near East J Hum Genet "Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X
The BofM was written by a group of IAmericans descended from a Semite (probably dark skinned)& North African ( from Africa orAsia?) Nephi&Laman were brothers of the same dark skinned race. The Indians who wrote the Rig-Veda (probably codified during Nephi’s lifetime, 600BC) used similar language. “White Skins:” Anciently…“Religious conversion was described figuratively as a change in skin color. Similarly, the Rigveda uses krsna tvac "black skin" as a metaphor for irreligiosity.”
Assumptions continued: that warm air rising leaves a vacuum; that the hole in the bottom was not in the peaked part of the bottom; that ancient people couldn’t survive a trip without windows to roll down, nor could they sing or pray every day (let’s face it, if Ponder couldn’t no one can : )); everyone slept same time& no one thought (as he maybe wouldn’t); that God doesn’t want people to think& figure things out on their own, even if He knows what they will do;
PH quotes continued: “research you are siting.. "recent" introductions…5,000 f-ing years ago!” “.. we know when the various groups were introduced.” “all arrived in the same wave of migration 15,000 years ago” “we're still on the fallacy of your timeline.” “Even if you say the timelines are not exact..” “known when these various groups first arose and what their migratory path was... its something that any here can research.” Etc
Ponder’s assumptions continued: that “the” hole in the bottom was most certainly for air even thought the text implies it wasn’t; that the barges “flopped” upside down (interesting, with peaked ends); that all animals mentioned were on board, plus perhaps, extras not mentioned; that they couldn’t think ahead for air, but were waiting for birds etc to notify but birds can’t do that, although they did in mines (?);
![SOMETHING FROM NOTHING ? [OFFICIAL] Richard Dawkins & Lawrence Krauss [HD] 02-04-12](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YUe0_4rdj0U/mqdefault.jpg)
![SOMETHING FROM NOTHING ? [OFFICIAL] Richard Dawkins & Lawrence Krauss [HD] 02-04-12](/img/tr.png)
Spent nearly 30 years in that cult. Life is amazing outside of this non-sense.
I spent 25 years inside. Just left 7 months ago but my family wouldn't listen
You left mormonism?
@@billiondollardan
You left mormonism?
@M FA
Hello, how are you?
@@louistournas120 yeah I quit at the beginning of 2020
It's sad because these things seem ridiculous, but to the believers of Mormonism, it's all fact. It took me having to leave the church to see what a con it actually was.
*****
Did you even watch the video? Dawkins bought up just a few points why it is ridiculous. Native Americans did *not* come from Israel, they came from Siberia across the Berring Straight tens of thousands of years ago (that's why the Book of Mormon intro was changed in 2007).
Joseph Smith lost 116 pages of the book of Lehi when Lucy Harris hid them to see if he could write it all again the exact same way. He couldn't write it, so he started again with the book of Nephi instead.
There is so much falsifiable claims, but there's a couple for you.
***** 2 Nephi 1:9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.
Sorry, the book does say they were alone, kept from all other nations and possess the land unto themselves.
***** You can't tell Frank he misunderstands the scripture when it's entirely possible you can misunderstand it, too. The only person who can fully understand what this means is the person who wrote it to begin with. So, you know, Joseph Smith.
Gyges Lyceum if youd like to know what i think is most ridiculous about it, it's gotta be the magical onsie you all wear under your clothes. hahaha! also the cash for Christ system is pretty bad imo
Gyges Lyceum I'm talking about the special Mormon underwear with the special symbols on it that protect you from sin. hahaha
I am dying to hear Dawkins, Krauss, Harris and Dennett debate $cientology at length.
+Keyboard Dancers Nothing to debate, really.
+TooLooze Scientologist spotted.
+dildo bazooka Actually, not at all; my point was you can only debate reality. Debating Scientology is like debating any other religion.
+TooLooze To be fair to other religions (and I think I'm being generous on this point) there is little to compare with the blatant avarice of $cientology. It's also quite unusual amongst religions in that it was invented only a few decades ago. I just find it curious that the Big Four tend not to mention $cientology in their respective critiques of irrational belief systems. Are they worried about a likely litigious response from Hubbard's flock?
Scientology can't be any crazier then any other religion.
You people that bash mormons dont understand. You see, joseph smith came to me in a dream and said unto me "lol lyk im jk trolololol" and all i could do was bow down and say "gr8 b8 m8, i r8 8/8" allah bless joseph smith, arguably the most innovative trolls of all time
lmaoooo
Why didn't smithy send the Holy Angel called Moron I to you? He changed the rules. Naughty Smithy tsk tsk
Why did the Angel Moroni repeat the same message to Joseph Smith more than once Paul Tokjian?
He did not plagiarize from the bible. You can just tell that but reading the Book of Mormon that it's true. It was reformed Egyptian or something that would be considered reformed Egyptian. There were too tablets. They weighed around 45 lbs.
Richard Holmes He did plagiarize the Bible. The man was a convicted charlatan. He spent his entire life tricking people. Historians and language experts have laughed off the stupidity of Mormon claims. There are no shiny rocks from Mormon stories. If you have evidence proving otherwise, give it over. Otherwise it's a ridiculous, unsubstantiated myth.
I look up to Dawkins and Krauss. As an Atheist who grew up in Utah, I love hearing them talk about Mormonism. :)
@Who let the virus out? Woof woof woofhan nah hes saying it was always annoying being a minority, but its nice to have an intellectual explain the idiocracy
@Who let the virus out? Woof woof woofhan Hi Cathy Newman!
I commend you young man, you're a rare breed
Mark Twain said relgion was invented when the first con man meet the first fool. How insightful.
It is so refreshing when two of my heroes discuss Mormonism. being an atheist in Utah sucks and it's lonely!
I am with ya. I am also a Utah atheist
+MyFairLady2190 WHY DO NOT YOU MOVE?
+Taylor Walters WHY DO NOT YOU MOVE?
Because I am going to college at the U and there are other things to enjoy in Utah. You're just kind of 2nd classed by the larger Mormon population
+Taylor Walters HAHAHAHA IN CASE YOU DID NOT KNOW IT THE MORMONS BUILT UTAH.. YOU ARE THEREFORE A GUEST IN A SENSE.
"it was just banter"
-Joseph Smith
This is why I love the English, you look at their conservatives in England how grown up there are, there are for Gay rights, Equal pay, Science, Education and progress and you look at our conservatives here in the states, I mean all I have to say is Sarah Palin and the Tea party
Why specifically the Conservatives and not any other parties? I really wouldn't say the Conservatives are for all that... Most are for gay rights, yes for equal pay but the Conservatives especially sure like to get the rich richer, but an obvious yes to science. I would still never vote for any Conservative scum.
Kerry Paulazzo the conservative media is basically representing for conservatives which is why some people generalize because they represent conservs.. And they are hugely known to go against gay rights.. Against equal pay and enforce religion to little kids so they can be indoctrinated.. And theres massive amount of video/audio proof of them agreeing on those..
Could you explain what the Tea Party is? As a Brit (Or perhaps only English come Thursday...) it sounds like a lovely afternoon in the sun lol
Kerry Paulazzo Fair enough, the Majority of England wouldn't vote for any Labour twats either, that's for Scotland to vote for but in a few hours your precious labour will never get in power again once Scotland's gone! :)
The amount of democrats who are creationist vs republicans in the USA isn't appreciably different, it is about 45% to 55% according to one poll I looked at. So in what sense are conservatives anti science and democrats are not?
I learned everything i need to know about Mormons from South Park
good sources
It's the one religion that right!! Lol
24 yrs as a very active, very engaged Mormon somehow didn't teach me as much as that episode of South Park
These beliefs are barking mad... agreed!
Totally !
My parents took me to church as a kid, a Mormon church! Baptised at 8yrs old! Thank god we had science at school and I was a curious little bastard lol I'd still be brainwashed now! I learnt Occam's razor early and now that's just how I think - I question everything!
Good man, your brain is working. Don't be too quick to thank Jupiter, Amon Ra, Mars, Jehovah, Allah... which god are you actually thanking? And how do you know it exists?
Jeff's Experiments "learnt"?
@Jeff's Experiments Uh, say what? You said ''brainwashed''! That's from the anti-Mormons, why are you listening to them? They are a mixture of anti-Mormon Christians, atheists, and possibly others. Not a damned one of them are any good. I don't think Occam's razor would be something you should even have the mere thought of here to do with Mormonism. That anti-Mormon crap of ''brainwashed'' has now been changed to ''under mind control''. Why? Because you'd have to be pretty stupid to believe that the Mormons are brainwashed once you really stop and think about it. The anti-Mormon Christians were too slow to see this though after they said it, I seen it before they did! I then noticed that that's when (somewhere around 2013, maybe earlier) the anti-Mormons, as a Way as to not admit defeat, changed it from saying ''Brainwashed'' into saying ''Under mind control'' to cover up for HOW STUPID it is to say ''Brainwashed''.
Again, I wouldn't suggest one listen to any of that anti-Mormon crowd's spew. I wouldn't listen to the two on the above video. Because who are they to say how YOU CAN THINK? Are we all too stupid out there to investigate the Mormon faith (Jesus Christ) on our own? Who are the anti-Mormons and the two atheists on the above video, that is? They're all talk. I don't lose debates to anti-Mormons and atheists. The anti-Mormons and the two atheists on the above video are all talk. I suppose if you go to the Mormon church or not is your business, but throw out all anti-Mormonism. Throw out what the two atheists on the above video say too. That way we've kind of got a basic picture on all of this. By the way, the anti-Book of Abraham information (books, websites, You Tube videos) was debunked in 2014. The anti-Mormons when coming to find out generally shut up about it, wont admit it. Some actually have TRIED to argue, but they soon realize that the anti-Book of Abraham info has been soundly debunked. This will continue on I believe.
Thank God
"Joseph Smith was called a profit, Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb."
so was Jesus..... dumb dumb dumb
and Mohammad.... dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb
I don't think anyone was called a profit...?
Lucy Harris smart smart smart smart
Prophet
“Mormons invented themselves just as other religious and ethnic groups invented themselves. But Mormons did so in such a singularly impressive way that we will probably always remain baffled as to how exactly it happened.”
― Laurence Moore
I was born into it. Left just a year ago, after 37 years in it. My siblings have all left as well, but not our parents.
Good for you. You are not responsible for the sins of your parents. You are only responsible for yourself. Having said that I hope that you can still love your parents and be loved by them. It would be a shame if religion could destroy that.
Many Americans are whining about the job Obama has done but this is ultimately why I voted for him a 2nd time. Did I want to give a Mormon a shot (I am a former Mormon) and possibly indoctrinate the world with his buffoonery or see what Obama was really capable of? I still support my vote because no matter how much people hate Obama I firmly believe in him far more than I could Romney.
*****
From another one of your posts: "I hope you realize this, because ultimately, bigotry hurts bigots the most."
And with a post like this, you certainly are the authority on bigotry. It's not surprising how cowards like yourself attempt to deny your own bigotry by actually resorting to it...and THEN actually play the role of the victim and/or justify it through an archaic belief structure. And what exactly are YOUR science credentials?
*****
Romney would have done the same and more.
*****
You would be run by a Mormon that swore an oath in the Mormon temple to give *all* his time, talents and money to the Mormon cult. Don't be fooled by Mittens. He is a natural con man and bad person.
*****
I agree. Honestly, I didn't want to see what Obama was capable of. Also, if you can't show people your capabilities in the first 4 years, you should probably not be president.
Voting for the lesser of 2 evils is not really a democratic system at all. Its electoral dictatorship.
He actually doesn’t even know about the most insane beliefs of Mormonism.
I guarantee you he does.
My favorite is when Dawkins says "barking mad" It never gets old for me. It freakin love it!
I believe the American English interpretation of that would be 'batshit crazy'
@@JustMike2791 do you have “bonkers” in the US?
@@bwebb90 Most assuredly
“Howling mad” also works.
2 Nephi 9:28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. 29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God. 30 But wo unto the rich, who are rich as to the things of the world. For because they are rich they despise the poor, and they persecute the meek, and their hearts are upon their treasures; wherefore, their treasure is their god. And behold, their treasure shall perish with them also.
If religion and state are separate in the U.S. , why is it impossible for an atheist to become president ?.
Paul Renfrew popular opinion
mi raz , The answer is religion and state are not separate at all . It's a lie .
Paul Renfrew can you name the law that requires a candidate to have a religious affiliation?
mi raz , Can you name a single president or senator who was a declared atheist ?. Throughout history .
Paul Renfrew you are conflating separation of church and state with popular opinion.
I could also ask you if you have ever seen or heard of a Muslim or Hindu presidential candidate. There is no law that gives preferential treatment for one belief over another. Just because the majority of the population happens to be Christian and and is human Nature to lean to the group you identify with, does not mean the the government requires a religious affiliation. Because everyone in this country can vote for what they feel the greatest majority is favored. If an atheists wishes to run for any political office it is not the LAW that would stop them, it is the vote of the people.
Those are two totally separate issues.
"Mormons invented themselves just as other religious and ethnic groups invented themselves. But Mormons did so in such a singularly impressive way that we will probably always remain baffled as to how exactly it happened."
― Laurence Moore
Barking mad is the correct, precise expression.
As a former Mormon missionary Dawkins is spot on. Now I’m an agnostic and have left Mormonism.
I was raised on the belief on these invisible plates, the ones that were translated to 17th English. And yes, JS was convicted in 1826. I've since wised up.
Marvelous discussion with many salient points.
Poor Mormons :-( They'll all go to hell, because they reject Tom Cruise. The greatest god an spare time actor. Scientology is the religion of truth. May Tom Cruise bless all of you people and lead you to the right path.
Amen.
I really hope you're trolling. If not, I'm still laughing at your stupidity.
Xenu approves this message.
Snicker...
Tomen! Bless you sir Turbo of Gelderland for those wise words. Indeed may The spirit of Hubbard be with you. Forever and ever and beyond!
If you have ever lived in Utah, you know that the policy is HEAVILY influenced by the mormon church
"...these beliefs are barking mad."! That says it all!!!!
i love how intent on listening Krauss is as Dawkins talks
"These beliefs are barking mad!" Well said!
I read that as Moronism. I need glasses.
Faluk Uetoo same thing
You wouldn't be wrong either way.
Nah you're fine
Same difference.
I have a speech impediment which stops me pronouncing the second M.
"There is a day to come which will reverse the confident judgments of men. In that day...[t]he wise of the world will be fools, and the fools in this world wise. The mad in the world will be the heirs of a better." "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
Until then, I'll go with logic science and reason.
I haven't seen the whole video, so for those who have seen the entire video can anyone tell me what Dawkins and Krauss were talking about when Dawkins referred to the 'hypothetical doctor and the astronomer'?
Being an atheist, I like Dawkins and I understand the importance of his fight. But watching that clip made me uneasy because it is too easy to ridicule Mormon beliefs. I would be reluctant to do it after seeing a fascinating PBS four hours documentary about the history of that "religion". And I began to like it because of the values it promotes. We can agree that most Mormons are very decent people and I think that mormonism is all in all a very positive force in America.
Ignorance is bliss
I went to a Mormon church about 2 years ago to accompany a friend to a Sunday morning service. The first thing I noticed was that all the men were wearing white shirts and black pants. The second thing I noticed was that people from the congregation would occasionally take turns going up to the podium and relaying some personal story. Some woman told a story about how she was adopted. Then we were told to turn to a page in some book. It was something about a "mother" I don't really remember the context. I was adopted so immediately I could relate, and it made me think of my own mother who had passed a few years earlier. Immediately I was touched, almost cried. The third thing I noticed was that there were no priests. I liked that.
Later on in the hallway I was introduced to some of the other congregants by my friend. I was surprised to learn that there is no New Testament in the Book of Mormon. silly me. They don't need one. They have Joseph Smith.
I don't believe in God but I will say this about the Mormon people that I met that day. They were some of the nicest people I've ever met. Once a month or so two of them would come on bicycles to where I live to see this person or that person. In the beginning I sat in on the sessions. They got boring after a while so these days I just wave hello.
Does religion have any positive qualities or redeeming value? Strict atheists say no, but I break camp with them on this particular topic. It was a positive experience for me that day because I was able to purge pent-up psychic energy, and feel better afterwards. for me, it had nothing to do with Jesus or religion in general. It had to do with having a positive emotional experience in the company of other people.
I do see some value in organized religion, especially when people can derive comfort from its guidance.
If you think of it as a form of group therapy and not a "church" of sorts, I would say there is something to be gained.
Well organized religion is never good, if people stopped believing in god it seems you could still get what you want by going to actual group therapy rather than indoctrinated people whom a lot of their good will comes from the fear of death and the afterlife. What makes them nice isn't their religion but rather what they are taught as children. You don't need to be religious to teach children kindness and empathy.
"They were some of the nicest people I've ever met. Once a month or so two of them would come on bicycles to where I live to see this person or that person."
So? Their absurd beliefs make them do that, so when you don't have their absurd beliefs you don't "come on bicycles to where I live to see this person or that person"? Is that your point?
What's your point? The video talks about believing in absurdities, nonsense, and taking it for real, not about how polite or compassionate they are towards others.
Illusions my friend. When your brainwashed you don’t know any better just what’s going on in there own bubble. No religion for me it’s a relationship with the almighty creator.
You are awesome! Thank you for not judging others for their believes ❤️
What you said about Mormons being nice to you - it's so-called love bombing. Typical to all-new Christian denominations until you submit to the religion. After that everybody lives their own lives - nice, not nice, boring, busy, friends, not friends, etc. But if you dare to leave the religion - you most likely will be shunned and you will get the opposite of what is "love bombing".
Thank you for having an open mind & heart. You are truly a rarity on these youtube videos. DO you remember what the documentary on Mormons was called?
I was lucky to go all the way in school (science, logic, philosophy, natural and world history, critical thinking, physics, etc.) -- this was my "education in facts."
Then after a long successful career in the medical field, fortunately, I've had time recently to do a lot of self-study and reading -- which was my "de-education in faith." But finally, in the last few days, I came to the definitive conclusion that *not only are the Abrahamic monotheistic religions and Mormonism madness, but they are downright flamboyantly insane.*
that include to jewish religion, right? they also are flamboyantly insane?
i was 11 years old when mormons tried to convert me to their belief system and i was like ive heard of moses abraham and even solomon and david and even christ and samson, job and other s but then they said their prophet joseph smith and i was like who..who....who the hell is joseph smith
He was just another snake oil salesman for the ignorant to follow. There have been many. But the more civilizations become educated, the less chance for another false "god" to be created. Smith might have been be the last person to pull off such a farce.
Harald Ertelt Ummm, ever heard of L Ron Hubbard? Started a little clambake called Scientology??
Grahame Lamblamb th-cam.com/video/3bm6Npd1Hjw/w-d-xo.html
Richard Holmes Sadly you're as deluded as a JW or a Scientologist.
hardly I believe if we were athiests like stalin the world would be a hard harsh place but I do respect science and mr dawkins opinion
The great thing about this is if you believe and you are right then all is good. If you believe and you are wrong - it won't matter. If you don't believe and you are wrong, then you are in very serious trouble. Dawkin's popularity is based on his brilliant ability to ridicule and belittle. I don't pay much attention to people who feel they can debate with snide, populist remarks that have little basis in fact or real truth. I watch this stuff and it verifies my belief. Thanks for uploading this.
What is the difference between believing something that is wrong and being wrong about not believing?
No church is pure!
His frustration is so palpable.
the garden of Eden in Missouri :D
The existence of a garden of Eden at all :D
***** Just thought it was interesting how one by the name of James H Madole gathered from hinduism and Aryanism and found that the Aryans are a race of antiquity and come from the garden of Eden north America!
I'm in Missouri and I can tell you, this is not Paradise. Its not hell either. I'd say its about average for the American mid-west.
"the garden of Eden in Missouri" Dawkins also tweeted on 9/7/02, "... obvious fake... Garden of Eden was in Missouri? ..." But Dawkins believes there was no Garden of Eden anywhere! So it is, quite literally, intellectually dishonest of him to bring Missouri up at all. That's not even the only time he was intellectually dishonest in this clip. He personally thinks Kennedy's religious beliefs were absurdly laughable and has said to other atheists at a rally, "Religion is not off the table," but he pretends here that Kennedy arguing that religion was off the table was "laudable" in order to do what... hopefully make Romney look bad? That's a political agenda, not an intellectually honest look at comparative religion.
Also Jesus visited North America lol See Jebus was really Colombus in disguise. Still a better story then Mohammerhead splitting the moon into two.
I was raised Mormon. Really nice people. Hardly ever see corruption and they are really sincere people. Not to mention Mormons actually practice what they preach, most other churches/ religions don't.
Well said!
The Lord God Our Richard talking sense as always👌✌️
everything I know about book of Mormon comes from the musical
Its a hilarious play, but I think that the utah culture has changed enough to ask for a few revisions. I wonder if they'll add anything or keep it the way it is...
*Lawrence Krauss is soo cool!*
Like if u agree!
I could find no reference for Edward Thompson. Send a link. I'd love to see this copper axe and gold plates.
This wasn't something I could quickly verify.
Note to A/V crews in general, when you have 2 panelists next to each other, put the mic on the side of the face that will NOT be brushing up against fabric of the clothing as they speak to each other.
Catholicism and Mormonism are equally ‘barking mad’. He rightly ridicules Romney, but lets Kennedy off the hook-why, because being a Democrat makes the holding of ‘barking mad’ ideas less ridiculous?
And now I can feel the excitement
This is the moment I was born to do
And I feel so incredible
To be sharing my faith with you
Richard Dawkins, the self proclaimed world expert in every area of science, religion, and philosophy.
universologist "self proclaimed world expert in every area of science, religion, and philosophy" sorry but when did he proclaim this?
@@ronror Just listen to him.
@@richardholmes7199 I have. He’s never proclaimed to be expert in any science save biology.
You ask the Lord in faith
He will always answer you
Just believe in Him
And have no fear
Am I the only one who gets annoyed by the audience?
Stop clapping and cheering for crying out loud.
I feel the same way. But unfortunately people are compelled to show they agree with someone on stage by clapping and acting crazy.
I am with the audience
Ah, yes...faith. Represses all sense, all logic, all reason, and all arguments. “It doesn't matter that you've proven it wrong, we've felt it in our soul that these words are true". The soul, of course is not real, just a concept that has its roots in our brain. Apparently, it represses the rest of the brain.
If I say that I've felt that Winnie the Pooh is the evil overlord of the galaxy, I'd be looked at like I was a lunatic, even though it is more probable than Mormonism that, like Dawkins says, comes from a convicted con man. "Winnie the Pooh - the malevolent supernatural being" is more like ordinary Christianity - as far as probability goes.
Faith doesn't necessarily repress logic, reason, or discourse. Faith doesn't mean I have no evidence to believe what I believe. That I have faith means that I believe something to be true because it makes sense knowing what I currently know. The problem with what you're saying is that it's a blatant straw man. No one has disproven God or disproven the Bible or the Book of Mormon. Some people read into them and choose not to believe, others choose to believe. But the problem is that faith is necessary no matter what we believe, whether we believe in Jesus or Allah or Buddha or Krishna or the LDS Church or the Hebrew Prophets or Science or Mathematics or any other group or character or worldview.
To say that because you believe in science, not faith and religion is an absurd comment. Max Planck, a revolutionary theoretical physicist, has said "Anybody who has been seriously engaged in scientific work of any kind realizes that over the entrance to the gates of the temple of science are written the words: Ye must have faith. It is a quality which the scientist cannot dispense with."
NjwillForever Proof is the responsibility of the claimant. It doesn't matter that no one has disproven religion, just that no one has proven it. Just like no one has disproven the evil overlord Pooh Bear.
You don't say "Guilty until proven innocent", you say "Innocent until proven guilty".
When there's no proof, it is all faith.
I didn't write a word about science in that post, I just wrote about religion.
Mister Anthropy I was in general responding to the ideas which I see as common among people who like to bash religion. I was also in general saying that even something which most people think of as completely fact, logic, and reason-namely, science-requires faith. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine you don't necessarily believe any religion because there is no absolute proof that any of them are true. That viewpoint of sheer agnosticism requires no growth and in reality requires evidence for itself.
I am not here attempting to prove my religious belief to you, I am simply saying that all things require faith. Agnosticism requires a faith and religion requires a faith. But the problem remains that you said that we believe something despite it being disproven. All I said was that it hasn't been disproven. We can still use logic and reason-after all they are two of our God-given gifts-but we can use them in conjunction with our faith, no matter where that faith may lie.
NjwillForever I view religion as imposing and destructive, and I think it is overwhelmingly probable that it is false. But yes, I can not know for certain. However, I see no difference between it and fiction in general, and I can not know that those tales are untrue either. If some group should start believing that they were wizards, I couldn't have disproved them, but I would oppose them when they started arguing for the annihilation of muggles.
Mister Anthropy I don't see the general destruction. I know that some people will abuse what their powers and intentionally harm others (this has been seen among Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, and Atheists, among countless others) but this is not a phenomenon which knows any restrictions to a certain group. So it's hard to say it's religion which actually causes this, and more that it's simply the fact that human nature can be pretty shitty at times.
But seeing the good that religion can do in peoples' lives and communities, it's hard to say that the bad necessarily outweighs the good.
I just love this. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints i say the writings on the plates were not taken. As hysterical as it seems hardly no one is willing to read them. Im so happy to have so many people attrack attention to the ludicrous of not be willing to find out if the is a God and whether or not he loves you. Oh, please dont ever stop making attacks on the other testifier of Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon, please dont stop.
I was a member 30 years. Do you think that he is that ignorant? Do you think that he has never read at least part of the Book of Mormon? The church is not true. The sooner you find out the better. Please believe me when I say that I know with every fibre of my being that the church is a false religion.
Brilliant!
wow, no respect for others beliefs and opinions. Is Dawkins trying to make the world a better place or just cause some stirring in the world? All he's doing is tearing others down. What a great way to contribute to society eh?
Obviously absurd opinions and beliefs do not deserve respect. What better way to contribute to society then to destroy willful ignorance and obvious cons?
Cooper Robinson Dawkins is trying to get attention, and he doesn't limit himself to what's fair in doing so. (I'm an atheist.)
Joseph Scott In all fairness, official Mormon beliefs are pretty damn silly, even by religious standards. So silly, in fact, that they are not even taught in Mormon seminaries. The only way to find out what the Mormon Church ACTUALLY believes in, is to *leave* the Mormon Church.... (and no, I am not kidding!)
effyleven "official Mormon beliefs are pretty damn silly, even by religious standards" I don't know why you're bringing up "religious standards," but religious beliefs of all denominations are routinely obviously pretend by my standards. Are religious beliefs of all denominations routinely obviously pretend by your standards?
Joseph Scott I'm sorry, Joe. I didn't think there was anything particularly tricky to understand about what I wrote. Let me clarify.
I feel most religious beliefs are fairy tales, not born out in reality. The power of prayer, for instance, has been demonstrated to have absolutely no effect whatsoever. However, even by the standards of people who accept the power of prayer, Mormon beliefs, notably the "founding" ones, are seen to be especially inane and ridiculous, more unbelievable even than talking snakes. But then, Mormonism was initiated by a known con-artist leeching on people even less bright than he was.
Therefore, Mormonism may be regarded as religion for the educationally sub-normal. Does that make my position clear?
If you can believe in God and prophets, then it is not hard to believe that Joseph Smith was called by God to be a prophet and was given the revelation to translate the Book of Mormon. He was a righteous man and it was prophesied back then that the world would speak good and evil of his name forever. So, this is an example of fulfilled prophesy.
if a person is somewhat famous everyone will speak good and evil about that person be it Joseph Smith, Britney Spears or president Lincon, its just comom sense that that will happen, it doesnt make it a fulfilled prophesy.
also, im a reasonable person so i dont believe in god and much less in that whole mormon story, so your argument "well if you believe in something ridiculous then it is not hard to believe in something even more ridiculous" just shoot it self in the foot. you have no argument your just spewing nonsense from the very first word your coment was doomed to be ridiculous
You're twisting my words. I did not say that it was ridiculous to believe in God and prophets; I was saying that if you have the faith to believe in God and prophets, then it should not be too hard to have faith in a modern prophet.
The prophesy mentioned about Joseph Smith was made by an angel of the Lord before Joseph had any fame at all. So, your argument does not stand. The prophesy was made years before Joseph translated the Book of Mormon and organized the church. In addition, not all famous people are spoken badly about, so you can't prove your point with an over-generalization.
i was not twisting your words, it was the same phrase but i should changed god and mormon to ridiculous, because thats exactly how it sounds to me.
its the same argument if you say "if you can believe in santa claus than its not hard to believe in mormons"
oh and yes, a prophesy made by an angel sounds more like to be truth then a man that said it years ago.
you know julios verme talked about rockets to the moon and subamrines way before their time, it doesnt make it prophesy
What are you getting at? That all that mormon nonsense is right?
Reptile Pope
what is it in my comment that would make you think i believe in that nonsense? i mean even if you truly believe in santa claus that still doesnt mean you can believe in the mormons, you may take that from my comment, or not.
one question where on earth did you get your information Richard Dawkins?
shannon wilkey His information is easily acquired. It' common knowledge regarding the core beliefs of Mormonism.
Where did you get yours Shannon Wilkey? I mean what's your positon and how do you support it?
It's the history of mormonism??? It's all on record.
Talking about 'loopholes,' J.R. you are right on.
What "force" is used that you have to live within the monatary system?
Can u give me a short explanation of ur beliefs and what Joseph Smith did? Just curious, dont know much about it.
No I would not want such a president. It is not a fair defense to not let your beliefs interfere with your job.
The delivery is perfect.It’s like watching mormons getting roasted on comedy central
Along with that, how do you prove where they came from with DNA? Does it track footsteps?
What politician were they talking about?
Hi, I have a question about the lds church... I had lessons for months with missionaries (elders) some time ago, and I thought that eternal family is something very nice, but I stopped because the church had polygamy in the past, the missionaries (elders) told me it happened in the past, not any more... I now searched wikipedia about the current prophet/president of the church who is Russell M. Nelson, and I noticed that Russell M. Nelson was married to Dantzel White who is now dead, but Russell M. Nelson is now married to Wendy L. Watson... my question is:
Will Russell M. Nelson have as wife Dantzel White or Wendy L. Watson after this life in the celestial kingdom? Or will Russell M. Nelson have both wives Dantzel White and Wendy L. Watson in the celestial kingdom? if Russell M. Nelson will have these 2 wives after death in the celestial kingdom, why did the missionaries (elders) told me that polygamy does not exist anymore?
He would be “sealed”/married to both women for all eternity.
Here’s how it goes. In the late 1809’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints gave up the “legal” right to polygamy in order to become a state and join the United States of America. It was proclimated by the church leadership and is the Mormon scriptures. HOWEVER…they did NOT stop the Temple ceremonies to allow one man to be sealed to multiple women…especially if the woman is not married/“sealed” to a worthy priesthood holding male. It is very important to note that the Mormons have multiple levels of Heaven and the only way for a woman to reach the highest level of Heaven is to be “sealed” to a worthy, priesthood holding man because it’s a very patriarchal society.
For example, personally, I was a worthy, tithe paying members the Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder Day Saints and “sealed” to my wife for time and all eternity in the Salt Lake Temple here in Utah…except, I’ve left the church and am now an atheist. So..,if my wife wants to get into the highest level of Mormon Heaven, she needs to “temple-divorce” and be sealed to a worthy male member. (Luckily, she’s a strong independent woman and came to realize it was crap)
Is this common in today’s day and age? I can’t imagine. But it can happen. Does that mean Rusty Neksen had for unlawful carnal knowledge (F.U.C.K.) of that other woman…I don’t know. But it’s a loophole so the women can get into the highest level of Heaven because of a patriarchal society…
I hope this made sense. I may not get a notification if you respond, but I’ll try to come back if you have more questions.
Cheers.
PS; because I may not have explained this…
In mainstream Mormonism, a legal, state sanctioned marriage only lasts until death.
But to be “sealed” for time and eternity in a religious sense, is to last an eternity. But once again, a woman can only get into the highest level of Heaven if they are sealed to a worthy man.
@@losttribe3001 thank you for the explanation!
@@markandersson5453 No problem. As to why the missionaries told you polygamy does not exists anymore…I don’t know. But I assume it’s just an indoctrination and image thing. However, they’re just kids so it isn’t surprising they couldn’t answer your question.
Answered it twice, no time to stop now, I'm on a roll.... : )
WHAT I WOULDN’T GIVE TO GET THE CHANCE TO ATTEND A TALK LIKE THIS! Maybe before I die, I may get the chance to actually meet my heroes. Probably not, but shit does the thought ever keep me going.
WOW High Def!
I don't understand how all of those beliefs are 'barking mad'. Presented in that light, in that sort of way, anything would sound ridiculous.
I do not consider my previous points to be loopholes Thomas; but rather, simple truths.
Let me get this straight, we have someone who believes that this complex world could be formed without an supreme creator, and he thinks that angels visiting someone is crazy? How many people here believe that an explosion in a book shop could ever create a dictionary? Even though he says I'm "barking mad", I know that what I believe is true, because I have had many wonderful experiences that have brought me peace and joy, and have confirmed my faith.
I love Lawrence's wry smile when Dawkins starts talking about Mormonism...
Richard Dawkins WILL NOT get into an in depth debate about Mormonism.
Richard Holmes Because it's an obvious lie.
I think much of the problem is that many people haven't been able to reconcile advances in science with their religious beliefs and still follow the ideology of Social Darwinism. While Darwin's work still provides a framework, today, science has shown that all variations of DNA are preexisting and quantum mechanics identifies light in wave lengths with an index or archetypal pattern (Fourier waves) This shows us that everything evolves from a predefined plan not into higher forms of life.
As someone who was a hippy kid from Humboldt county CA and was forced to move to SLC in when I was 12 in 1980 and got stuck there for 18 years, the LDS church has a huge amount to do with how vehement my Atheism and my distrust and disgust at religious entities and practices are. In a country where there's, ostensibly, a separation of church and state...Utah does not really have that, and if you want to learn what it's like to live under a theocracy...even one as denuded as the Mormons are, then moving to Utah is the way to experience that. I've seen and experienced things while I was living there that have helped to instill a deep and abiding hatred for the gullibility and stupidity of the religious and the the danger implied in their existence. The Mormons, Muslims and Catholics all see their religions as political entities and their beliefs should be stomped on with both feet constantly until they are forgotten. My 2c.
Euan, please explain the abbreviation, NHS, for myself?
Good one Steve
THaanks, Eddy.
---------Watch 'Cheap Joke by Ian Miller, mayte.
Respect is to be valued at all times. Even if the person you're respecting happens to be the individual you despise with the most intense of passions.
Why?
Pale's quotes continued: "Either the types of artifacts mentioned in the book of mormon are present.. or they are not. And they are not. (he cites the ever shrinking list of “never founds” to try to prove this false statement, I’ll discuss that in reply to this comment below& above: )
More quotes "This relative absence of haplogroup X2 in Asia is one of the major factors causing the current rethinking of the peopling of the Americas. However, the New World haplogroup X2a is as different from any of the Old World X2b, X2c, X2d, X2e, and X2f lineages as they are from each other, indicating an early origin "likely at the very beginning of their expansion and spread from the Near East J Hum Genet "Origin and Diffusion of mtDNA Haplogroup X
3,106 likes as opposed to 182 dislikes at this moment. That's all that is needed to understand that the public is waking up.
The BofM was written by a group of IAmericans descended from a Semite (probably dark skinned)& North African ( from Africa orAsia?) Nephi&Laman were brothers of the same dark skinned race. The Indians who wrote the Rig-Veda (probably codified during Nephi’s lifetime, 600BC) used similar language. “White Skins:” Anciently…“Religious conversion was described figuratively as a change in skin color. Similarly, the Rigveda uses krsna tvac "black skin" as a metaphor for irreligiosity.”
Barking mad 😡
Hilarious 😂😂😂
Assumptions continued: that warm air rising leaves a vacuum; that the hole in the bottom was not in the peaked part of the bottom; that ancient people couldn’t survive a trip without windows to roll down, nor could they sing or pray every day (let’s face it, if Ponder couldn’t no one can : )); everyone slept same time& no one thought (as he maybe wouldn’t); that God doesn’t want people to think& figure things out on their own, even if He knows what they will do;
Best phrase ever "For fucks sake".
Likely!
I can't believe I am saying this but I would have to agree with Richard Dawkins on this point.
We shall have to get an official White House statement about that, Kim!
PH quotes continued: “research you are siting.. "recent" introductions…5,000 f-ing years ago!” “.. we know when the various groups were introduced.” “all arrived in the same wave of migration 15,000 years ago” “we're still on the fallacy of your timeline.” “Even if you say the timelines are not exact..” “known when these various groups first arose and what their migratory path was... its something that any here can research.” Etc
God damn my sides fucking hurt...can't breath. Thank you for making my day.
Ponder’s assumptions continued: that “the” hole in the bottom was most certainly for air even thought the text implies it wasn’t; that the barges “flopped” upside down (interesting, with peaked ends); that all animals mentioned were on board, plus perhaps, extras not mentioned; that they couldn’t think ahead for air, but were waiting for birds etc to notify but birds can’t do that, although they did in mines (?);
The difference now is that America has a president with unrealistic nonsense in his head, but actually actively tries to make it into policy.
I'm a Christian but I actually agree with what Dawkins and Krauss are saying referring to Mormonism.
...and he didn't even mention the planet KALEB or KELOB or so. Where they all live happily now with Joseph Smith, father, son and the holymoly spirit.
1:00 'Nuff said.
2:12 - dawkins hand and krauss's head moved at the same time
He's not being bigoted, he's just being honest.
One extra letter by mistake??
I always think back to that South Park episode. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb!!!